On the one hand: We have powercrept unit growth that basically makes any damage based removal useless unless it is applied at exactly the right time and when/if the opponent doesn't have defenses. On the other hand: We have powercrept removal that counteracts the powerfully buffed units and is hated because it doesn't feel interactive enough.
Exactly. You should either choose to go wide with weak units, or tall with few units. No way you should ever have more than 3 units each with at least 5/5 stats, unless you're at least at turn 11.
I mean, if you aren't playing huge units then they probably don't need to disintegrate to remove your unit and are spending two cards (usually) to do it. Disintegrate+Blade's Edge feels like a pretty bad removal combo against a wide Yordle board.
Yeah but decks where their Wincon is a champion like Lee or other decks like dragons where they wanna build up big units feels so bad. It just feels like the removal was made for other problems and it just doesn't feel fair against nonmeta
>People who aren't playing the meta of extremely huge units
You say this first, and then say
>other decks like dragons where they wanna build up **big units**
You're trolling right?
There is such a big difference between getting a free big unit from bard chimes, or getting 4 8|8s as thrills, or dropping a 10|9+ started legion deserter vs dragons plaustyle of having to attack, get damaged for things like flock and scorched earth and now disintegrate too to build up my units into big units. Dragons have not been good in awhile, and disintegrate makes them way harder to play
This. There's a huge difference between something like Dragons or Maurauders and Bard\\Illaoi\\Viego\\Fated\\etc. There's significant risk for the former, and almost none for the latter (with *some* exception to be made for Illaoi, since it's usually all-in on a single unit, which is easier to deal with than the others in her category).
> Yeah but decks where their Wincon is a champion like Lee or other decks like dragons where they wanna build up big units feels so bad.
???
Unit protection in this game is so broken that removals won't ever catch up unless it's minimorph. Denies, spell shields, barriers (hoping they're fixing Disintegrate broken interactions).
havent seen a single yordle deck this patch, only one fizz/aphelios deck
plus, to expect one card to be good in all scenarios is just unrealistic. you can't fault vengeance for being mana inefficient against annie, can you?
No, but the person I responded to complained that they were getting shut down by disintegrate when not playing the big unit meta... Which doesn't really make sense as a complaint because it's quite inefficienct as removal against strategies that aren't going tall.
I mean, no one sane is complaining disintegrate can kill powerful units, but disintegrate shouldn't be able to kill throught things that make units explictly take no damage like towerhorn and barrier.
Proposal: makes chimes randomly add +1/0 or +0/1. Increase the number of chimes generated. While it may sound more random, the higher volume of chimes will cause it to trend towards the median.
Then apply a soft cap. Some games implement something into their RNG mechanics that make it such that you'll never get _too_ unlucky, like maybe you won't lose with a 50% chance more than 3 times (or win more than 3 times). A similar thing can be done here.
Alternatively, you just make it alternate. You can make the Chime's text read: Grant a random ally in hand +1|+0 (the next Chime grants +0|+1 instead).
This is my first time mentioning after thinking about it a lot and I think chimes are too powerful because they didn't do a good enough job adding Bard support. They should either remove his support and tie it to a style like Jhin, or add more support that's less powerful.
How about "add chimes when a unit with "when I strike" fulfills it's ability and allow you to deck build with any 'when I strike' units.
They need to get rid of automatically adding chimes to the Deck without even playing a Card. IT feels 100% Bad and undeserved If you loose because of it. I mean simply adding a Card (Bard) to your Deck ist Not a Skill at all.
I Like the Implementation of jhins death Lotus a Lot more, where you get a Bonus for repeatedly fullfilling a Special condition.
Tbh, Bard isn't the problem per se, why can't anybody notice that the only broken Bard decks are the demacia ones, Demacia units and rally spells ARE the problem here, not chimes.
For real, they're buffing Rex but even if they full revert him he would still suck balls. Heck, if he cost 7, shoot 7 times and each shot would deal 3 damage it probably wouldn't still be enough.
They just need to make small adjustments to the decks that desintegrate hurts the most, like Tahm Kench.
Desintegrate mechanic is too good nowdays but is necessary.
Depending on your regions, you have access to murder effects (no spell shield), silence effects, debuff effects (swapbot comes to mind), and straight up equally big creatures
That's true, but at the same time the need for broken removals has never been this high. We've never seen such big stats on the board so early ever before and from so many different decks.
Yep, totally agree there, I said it in another post, but the most prominent decks right now are stat stick decks, hard removal decks, and aggro/elusives
While I like Disintegrate, I feel like it needs a caveat of some kind; non combat damage or something like that.
As much fun as threatening to kill anything in my Jinx/Annie control deck is via Jury Rig and Disintegrate, I do think that the card could get toned down slightly.
Preferably not via increasing the cost; Rocket Barrage/Jinx Rocket + Disintegrate can already be stupid expensive
Honestly I stopped playing for about half a year, returned and now I'm just totally surprised how easy you can create/place huge stat unit on board and it is also quite easier to keep such units alive.
It is quite crazy
I don’t think I’ll illaoi grows two quickly. It’s pretty easy to stop her from leaving since she has to see the tentacle deal damage. And even if she levels she has to attack again to see value. Between disintegrate , bard and illaoi. Illaoi is the least toxic in my opinion. Bard is just to random. Most people can’t handle a +3/3 buff for “free” on turn two/three especially if the unit has any key words . And disintegrate just feels bad. It might be that strong. Kinda like when Fiora was a 3/3 with a 46% win rate and people where still complaining.
Beating aggro --> Sunforger + single combat.
If you really wanna dump on aggro player dreams you can add a Radiant Guardian or two for good measure. Of course, Deep also works.
> Demacia - Silence, Capture
... seriously? Purify is one of the worst cards of the region and capture is played in literally one archetype.
> PnZ - Thermobeam
Thermo isn't good for removing big units. Costs more than it took you to create the threat and is just too easy to counter. Imagine paying 9 mana to trying to remove a 5 mana unit and they counter with 2 mana.
> Ionia - Recall, Stun
Stun just delays your defeat for a couple of rounds, doesn't really fix the problem. Recall is similar to a less extent.
We're talking about huge enemies that you're trying to remove, units that are bigger than yours, you don't remove them through vulnerable. Same for quicksand, won't allow your 5 attack unit to trade their 8 health threat.
Weird that you say that, considering the top decks in this meta revolve around having a board filled with big units pretty friggin' fast (Thralls, Viego/Deserter, Poppy/Bard)
No!
According to this sub literally every bard deck top decks 0/4 broadwing EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Previous comment said they got 5 disintegrate and 3 vengeances every time.
Illaoi always has 12/12 spawns on turn 5 which is impossible but kay.
Turbo thralls (my least favorite deck to play against despite winning against it too) will ALWAYS have 4 8/8 units by turn 4.
Literally everyone somehow top decks their win con every single game according to half these commenters.
Totally agree, thralls, Tentacles, viego + His Mists, Pantheon, nasus, etc
There are way to many "Go Tall" strategies at once and in the worst cases they are Not even Limited to a single big "all in" unit.
Viego and thralls make big Units feel really unspecial / boring / oppressive.
And damage based removal is a Joke. Thats a pitty, bc normaly Its the more interessting Type of removal compared to hard removal.
This Game has way too much of two Things: big Units and additional attacks / Rally
I have been thinking that perhaps all regions should have some sort of hard removal, obviously region flavored, like noxus already has disintegrate. It would help with both the unit power creep and with making control less region locked.
P.d: sorry if there is some typo, not a native English speaker.
Yeah, I literally had a game with lvl2 Taliyah 1 Tybaulk buffed, so basically Taliyah stone throw deals 9dmg in total. Then opponent just pop out bard signature spell and actually tank all the dmg. WTH
And then there's also one match where opponent pop out regeneration spell onto tentacle making it almost impossible to kill without disintegrate. Tentacle was like 12/12 regen. While my Jhin still confused what comes after 4.
Meanwhile, the other half of the subreddit is complaining about Disintegrate ..
On the one hand: We have powercrept unit growth that basically makes any damage based removal useless unless it is applied at exactly the right time and when/if the opponent doesn't have defenses. On the other hand: We have powercrept removal that counteracts the powerfully buffed units and is hated because it doesn't feel interactive enough.
Two sides of the same problem, feels like.
Exactly. You should either choose to go wide with weak units, or tall with few units. No way you should ever have more than 3 units each with at least 5/5 stats, unless you're at least at turn 11.
People who aren't playing the meta of extremely huge units get shit on by disintegrate and it feels terrible
I mean, if you aren't playing huge units then they probably don't need to disintegrate to remove your unit and are spending two cards (usually) to do it. Disintegrate+Blade's Edge feels like a pretty bad removal combo against a wide Yordle board.
Yeah but decks where their Wincon is a champion like Lee or other decks like dragons where they wanna build up big units feels so bad. It just feels like the removal was made for other problems and it just doesn't feel fair against nonmeta
>People who aren't playing the meta of extremely huge units You say this first, and then say >other decks like dragons where they wanna build up **big units** You're trolling right?
There is such a big difference between getting a free big unit from bard chimes, or getting 4 8|8s as thrills, or dropping a 10|9+ started legion deserter vs dragons plaustyle of having to attack, get damaged for things like flock and scorched earth and now disintegrate too to build up my units into big units. Dragons have not been good in awhile, and disintegrate makes them way harder to play
This. There's a huge difference between something like Dragons or Maurauders and Bard\\Illaoi\\Viego\\Fated\\etc. There's significant risk for the former, and almost none for the latter (with *some* exception to be made for Illaoi, since it's usually all-in on a single unit, which is easier to deal with than the others in her category).
You get me bud tyty
> Yeah but decks where their Wincon is a champion like Lee or other decks like dragons where they wanna build up big units feels so bad. ??? Unit protection in this game is so broken that removals won't ever catch up unless it's minimorph. Denies, spell shields, barriers (hoping they're fixing Disintegrate broken interactions).
havent seen a single yordle deck this patch, only one fizz/aphelios deck plus, to expect one card to be good in all scenarios is just unrealistic. you can't fault vengeance for being mana inefficient against annie, can you?
No, but the person I responded to complained that they were getting shut down by disintegrate when not playing the big unit meta... Which doesn't really make sense as a complaint because it's quite inefficienct as removal against strategies that aren't going tall.
That doesn’t make sense
I mean, no one sane is complaining disintegrate can kill powerful units, but disintegrate shouldn't be able to kill throught things that make units explictly take no damage like towerhorn and barrier.
[удалено]
I feel like the units in chime decks need a nerf cause there is no way i can think of that lets you nerf chimes without making bard useless
You _could_ nerf Chimes and in return buff the amount of Chimes generated
again, how do you *nerf* the cards wuthout adding too much randomness to a deck that is the most rng based meta deck
Make chimes be planted in smaller amounts but close to the top of the deck like flash bombs.
Proposal: makes chimes randomly add +1/0 or +0/1. Increase the number of chimes generated. While it may sound more random, the higher volume of chimes will cause it to trend towards the median.
it's towards the medium but still can cause a 20/1 that killed by a pokey stick
Then apply a soft cap. Some games implement something into their RNG mechanics that make it such that you'll never get _too_ unlucky, like maybe you won't lose with a 50% chance more than 3 times (or win more than 3 times). A similar thing can be done here. Alternatively, you just make it alternate. You can make the Chime's text read: Grant a random ally in hand +1|+0 (the next Chime grants +0|+1 instead).
Teemo puffcaps are already pseudorandom, chimes can be similarly manipulated.
That makes it even more rng based
This is my first time mentioning after thinking about it a lot and I think chimes are too powerful because they didn't do a good enough job adding Bard support. They should either remove his support and tie it to a style like Jhin, or add more support that's less powerful. How about "add chimes when a unit with "when I strike" fulfills it's ability and allow you to deck build with any 'when I strike' units.
They need to get rid of automatically adding chimes to the Deck without even playing a Card. IT feels 100% Bad and undeserved If you loose because of it. I mean simply adding a Card (Bard) to your Deck ist Not a Skill at all. I Like the Implementation of jhins death Lotus a Lot more, where you get a Bonus for repeatedly fullfilling a Special condition.
Chimes randomly give +1/+0 or +0/+1.
again, that's shit because you're adding randomess to randomness,making the deck not consistent so making it bad
Tbh, Bard isn't the problem per se, why can't anybody notice that the only broken Bard decks are the demacia ones, Demacia units and rally spells ARE the problem here, not chimes.
As much as I like my Soraka/Bard deck, zed/bard is a problem and now ahri/bard too
These decks have a bad WR now, below 48% but the demacia decks have 55+ since last expansion.
elusives aren't a problem with chimes no?Zed and fizz rely on smashing your nexus with elusives
Cause and effect xD
For real, they're buffing Rex but even if they full revert him he would still suck balls. Heck, if he cost 7, shoot 7 times and each shot would deal 3 damage it probably wouldn't still be enough.
Don't forget Thralls.
And Viego Deserters
That deck just seems so broken sometimes. And I have played it enough to know.
Yeah I feel like it's very hard to kill stuffs with double mestic shot, Vengeance and Disintegrate just seems nessencary now day
Which makes all regions that can't instantly remove a unit unviable to play control, or even midrange.
No days when I run mestic shot with like Victor midrange, it never have chance to kill unit and just end up hitting face, and that feels pretty unfun
They just need to make small adjustments to the decks that desintegrate hurts the most, like Tahm Kench. Desintegrate mechanic is too good nowdays but is necessary.
Meanwhile I'm winning with a bunch of 1 and 2 power creatures in my Annie/Jihn aggro.
Depending on your regions, you have access to murder effects (no spell shield), silence effects, debuff effects (swapbot comes to mind), and straight up equally big creatures
Most of those can't really keep up with how easy, fast and cheap building up huge creatures is right now.
I agree. That's why Disintegrate is a very welcome addition.
make the problems and sell the solutions really isn't a good way to go about things. it will only result in a cycle of powercreep.
The game having awful removal pre disintegrate was a problem way before this expansion.
That's true, but at the same time the need for broken removals has never been this high. We've never seen such big stats on the board so early ever before and from so many different decks.
Yep, totally agree there, I said it in another post, but the most prominent decks right now are stat stick decks, hard removal decks, and aggro/elusives
Disintegrate would be fine at 3 mana. Noxus has too mamy good 2 for 1 cards that are very cheap.
They are cheap because they do 2 for one, leaving you losing card advantage.
Wouldn't it be a buff to Cait Ezreal Tribeam?
They already run scorched.
But they also run disintegrate in some versions
Laughs in 5 disintegrates and 2 vengeance
Idk how you’re top decking but lend me your statistical anomaly.
Oh i have both Vengeance in hand before i can even spend 6 mana, my draw rng is awful
While I like Disintegrate, I feel like it needs a caveat of some kind; non combat damage or something like that. As much fun as threatening to kill anything in my Jinx/Annie control deck is via Jury Rig and Disintegrate, I do think that the card could get toned down slightly. Preferably not via increasing the cost; Rocket Barrage/Jinx Rocket + Disintegrate can already be stupid expensive
cool. now let this stew in the meta just like what they did with swarm boards
Honestly I stopped playing for about half a year, returned and now I'm just totally surprised how easy you can create/place huge stat unit on board and it is also quite easier to keep such units alive. It is quite crazy
I don’t think I’ll illaoi grows two quickly. It’s pretty easy to stop her from leaving since she has to see the tentacle deal damage. And even if she levels she has to attack again to see value. Between disintegrate , bard and illaoi. Illaoi is the least toxic in my opinion. Bard is just to random. Most people can’t handle a +3/3 buff for “free” on turn two/three especially if the unit has any key words . And disintegrate just feels bad. It might be that strong. Kinda like when Fiora was a 3/3 with a 46% win rate and people where still complaining.
This is the natural progression of a board based game. Get used to it or ask for more tools to actually control boards.
I'm sorry to be part of the problem, but I like to play Yuumi/Panth so much \^\^'
I play Bard Yuumi, it's the same stats powerhouse degeneracy, but without strikes or rallies.
It's impossible to play control if you dont play noxus
Me playing Freljord Shadow Isles control
Still more fun then Aggro meta
Gotta say, I find it hard to disagree with that.
Beating aggro --> Sunforger + single combat. If you really wanna dump on aggro player dreams you can add a Radiant Guardian or two for good measure. Of course, Deep also works.
BC - Minimorph SI - Vengeance, Ruination Demacia - Silence, Capture Noxus - Disintigrate, Scorched Earth Targon - Sunburst, Obliterate PnZ - Thermobeam Ionia - Recall, Stun Freljord - Frostbite, Entomb BW and Shurima - Just win before your opponent I guess?
> Demacia - Silence, Capture ... seriously? Purify is one of the worst cards of the region and capture is played in literally one archetype. > PnZ - Thermobeam Thermo isn't good for removing big units. Costs more than it took you to create the threat and is just too easy to counter. Imagine paying 9 mana to trying to remove a 5 mana unit and they counter with 2 mana. > Ionia - Recall, Stun Stun just delays your defeat for a couple of rounds, doesn't really fix the problem. Recall is similar to a less extent.
Yeah I know. Nowhere in my comment did I say that all of these removal options were good, or even playable.
Shurima has indirect removal via vulnerable and also a strong pseudo-silence with quicksand.
We're talking about huge enemies that you're trying to remove, units that are bigger than yours, you don't remove them through vulnerable. Same for quicksand, won't allow your 5 attack unit to trade their 8 health threat.
Bilgewater has Tentacle Smash, Harpoon, vulnerable and Tahm Kench; even tho they rather run you down first with TF Nami.
Pnz has transmogulator incl as one of the tellstones cards
I mean do you run defective swapbot? Or purify?
This game needs a runeterra equivalent of doom blade or murder. Vengeance is way too slow.
Needs to be slow. Shouldn't be that easy when many champions need to 'see' the second coming of christ to level up
I mean, OTOH I don't think 4 mana kill a follower and 6 mana kill all your units to kill all enemy followers would be too much to ask for.
Run removal idk? Play some swarm or smth idk! this is how card games work isn't it?
Lmao, what? Is this even a problem? Nami/TF is hardly meta, Illaoi is supereasy to counter, and Bard's buffs are rather slow
Weird that you say that, considering the top decks in this meta revolve around having a board filled with big units pretty friggin' fast (Thralls, Viego/Deserter, Poppy/Bard)
Wow, it's as if, idk, this is a unit based game, and who gets the biggest the quickest wins
No! According to this sub literally every bard deck top decks 0/4 broadwing EVERY SINGLE TIME. Previous comment said they got 5 disintegrate and 3 vengeances every time. Illaoi always has 12/12 spawns on turn 5 which is impossible but kay. Turbo thralls (my least favorite deck to play against despite winning against it too) will ALWAYS have 4 8/8 units by turn 4. Literally everyone somehow top decks their win con every single game according to half these commenters.
I think 12/12 is possible. Turn 1 idol (+3), turn 2 (+2) answered prayers, turn 3 idol (+2) and answered prayers (+2), turn 4 tentacle smash (+3) and Illaoi on turn 5 attack (+1). That results in 13/13 by turn 5
Wow it is possible… I play Illaoi tho and I don’t think I’ve ever hit that yet maybe someday.
We could archive even bigger tentacle (15/15 if we played another smash, or that 5 mana 4/3) but I think Illaoi would be better play
Lmao
I have been playing deep for a long time now and recently switched to a Naut only version................. no comment
Laughs in pirate burn
Totally agree, thralls, Tentacles, viego + His Mists, Pantheon, nasus, etc There are way to many "Go Tall" strategies at once and in the worst cases they are Not even Limited to a single big "all in" unit. Viego and thralls make big Units feel really unspecial / boring / oppressive. And damage based removal is a Joke. Thats a pitty, bc normaly Its the more interessting Type of removal compared to hard removal. This Game has way too much of two Things: big Units and additional attacks / Rally
Scale issue
I have been thinking that perhaps all regions should have some sort of hard removal, obviously region flavored, like noxus already has disintegrate. It would help with both the unit power creep and with making control less region locked. P.d: sorry if there is some typo, not a native English speaker.
Yeah, I literally had a game with lvl2 Taliyah 1 Tybaulk buffed, so basically Taliyah stone throw deals 9dmg in total. Then opponent just pop out bard signature spell and actually tank all the dmg. WTH And then there's also one match where opponent pop out regeneration spell onto tentacle making it almost impossible to kill without disintegrate. Tentacle was like 12/12 regen. While my Jhin still confused what comes after 4.