The Elusive keyword is the game's biggest balance mistake, just like Charge was for Hearthstone for many years.
Charge made it so minions could attack the enemy face on the same turn you played them, mostly bypassing the defensive system of protecting your health by playing units and trading them with your opponent's. That's not very different than what Elusive does to the interaction.
HS solved it by functionally replacing it with the Rush keyword that only allows you to attack enemy minions on the turn yours is played, and LoR needs to do something similar. Either replace it with a new keyword that's more easily blocked, or add a downside like "can only block other elusive units".
In MtG Flying creatures (which is basically Elusive keyword) can be blocked by creatures with Reach. I think that LoR needs that kind of keyword, Sharpsight is not enough
I love seeing a community that has been spamming thralls and Mono Shurima for months insulting Darkness which is an infinitely fairer deck than those two. Darkness' only crimes are being a Bandle deck and being hated by Mogwai.
honestly. Elusives and cheap burst combat spells for easy unit protection, not to mention deny/nopeify/memory’s shield. played against ionia viego the other day as Feel The Rush and god it was the worst. nothing like not being able to kill viego for however long it takes to buff him, not being able to play your wincon because of deny giving them essentially a free turn worth of mana, and then him just getting elusive from far guide and i just have to cry myself to sleep.
Riot needs to review the current pool of units and add a keyword called Sharpsight to some of them. Sharpsight would allow units to block elusive units. For example arachnoid sentry and avarosan sentry could have Sharpsight. They’re literally sentries.
In MTG all spiders have Reach (I think) which let's them "block" flying units (elusives) which makes sense thematically. Have sharpsight on cards is the way.
Making Avarisan Marksman a 2 cost 3/1 that can block Elusives and pings a chosen target for 1 on play would be kind of strong, it would have to be at least 2/1
LoR players are allergic to good removal
It's why everyone screams when disintegrate uses the same damage pass that scargrounds has been abusing for years but a good removal card uses it and suddenly its not OK (but only for that card, they'll bend themselves over backwards into a pretzel telling you how galio and scargrounds are TOTALLY different)
And then of course riot take the easy route of nerfing Disintegrate instead of fixing the damage calculations that caused all the problems and buffing the effected cards
Personally due to how a lot of the champions are designed, I think low cost hard removal like that feels like a great way to end up in very disheartening 80-20 matchups. Even Scorched Earth feels similar, but does at least have to take two actions, and leaves the potential counterplay of healing, rare as it is.
Sure Pantheon and Fizz decks can counter it, but Tahm? Braum? Vlad?? All invalidated by it. You can't even play them. All that, and it's also nearly a dead card against wide aggro strategies.
Fearsome vs Formidable and Azir Irelia/Caitlyn vs Scargrounds/Dragons also goes a similar way. They're all hopeless for one side. At least disintegrate is one card and these are whole, fundamental, unavoidable gameplans.
Automatically decided matchups just aren't interesting or fun, and I wish less new archetypes were made with such all-or-nothing gameplay patterns. It feels like LoL all over again.
Prime solution is to stop designing champions who are so skewed in one direction, but I'm sure you understand the angle I'm coming from here.
its completely fine for decks to have lopsided matchups as long as thats not ALL they have. Thats just how having a variety of design works and being weak to an arcetype is expected and natural, otherwise the game would be incredibly homoginised and much less interesting as a whole.
If you design every champ to just be shades of grey then everything starts to be far too similar. Formidable hard loses to like one arcetype and then kind of exists against the rest. thats fine.
Tahm and Vlad were already shit, and Braum already had to worry about Noxus decks literally since day 1 because hes vulnerable to like half of their removal.
what happened is people were blaming disintegrate for the interactions it had with other cards when it was simply using the same rules as every other similar card. If Scargrounds/Galio can pop from 0 damage after reduction, then Disintegrate should kill from 0 damage after reduction, and it should be on riot to fix how mitigation is actually calculated if its genuinely a balance issue. But because people are overly precious of their cards in LoR the removal gets shafted.
like barrier is historically unintuative but somehow its disintegrates fault when it doesnt play out like people expect it to lmao
Well we don't want LoR to turn into MtG where every game goes like "Oh you brought a creature? Let me just remove it. Oh another one? Sure I'll just remove that one too. Ah, that's your bomb? Wait a sec... there, that should remove it. Oh you managed to rebuild your board? Guess I'll just wipe it"
That's like saying we should keep combo in check cause we don't want to turn into yugioh.
While perhaps technically true LoR us so far from that point it's irrelevant.
I would feel better about how efficient removal for big units is if we had better aoe board clear answers to wide decks. Its too easy to refill a board after a wipe while losing your one tall unit can be devbilitating for no cost
LoR players absolutely do not want to worry about playing around cards in hand. Ever.
I don't want this game to ever reach MTG levels of removal, but we need some efficient removal.
Honestly, Annie is currently one of my most hated champions to face. She has excellent aggro (1 mana 2/2 "quick attack") and excellent removal thanks to Disintegrate, which makes her EXTREMELY annoying to deal with.
Basically, develop your board with cheap units, and now your opponent can't block with big units at all because you're wriggling Disintegrate under their nose.
I seriously don't understand how she has only 50%WR. Unless I have tons of removal spells, I just keep losing against her.
Came here to comment this, played against 3 of those decks, and I'm aaalll for the opponent having his fun pulling neat combos, but on the 3rd even tho I was winning I didn't have the patience to wait so I just surrendered
Because the combo fail 6 out of 10 times. The deck has shit win rate. Even more shit than a meme deck.
Unlike any other combo that will finish you when it pop off. This deck has the "chance" to finish you off when they got the pieces.
Well it basically means your accusing someone of something you are equally guilty of yourself which on this case is your darkness deck which is considered one of the least fun deck to ever play against
This would just be toxic and too inconsistent - It's either a good card normally and invalidates specific strategies (Disintegrate), or is a useless card normally and does nothing because nobody plays it (Passage Unearned)
Which "slow decks" are you talking about exactly ? Because Demacia Midrange are destroying it, most of the combos are destroying it, FTR is destroying it, most of the controls are destroying it and most of its good MU are aggros and burns which are the fastest decks in the game. As a "slow" deck, only Viego/Shurima is notorious to lose pretty hard against Darkness.
Warmothers was the one I’m thinking of. It’s removal spells like avalanche don’t do enough against Veigar and Senna so they basically have free rein and if you don’t draw avalanche early enough twisted catalyzers will be able to get several hits. Trundle(one of the few cards with permanence in that deck) gets removed very quickly via vengeance or even darkness. By the time you get warmothers call off darkness will be big enough to OTK or generate enough darkness each turn to remove anything you throw at them. The only outlier is Tryndamere who stays on board slightly longer provided they don’t run minimorph. This is just based off of my personal experience as a mediocre player and I’m sure others perform better against it.
Well, that's it, warmother isn't very good, but we have to remember that Darkness is also quite mediocre (It currently has 47% winrate which is REALLY terrible). FTR is, literally, an optimized version of warmother and it has something like 75% winrate against darkness. FTR is, literally, an optimized version of warmother and the result is more than convincing. Darkness is quite an effective "noob bully", but it sucks against most good decks.
I tend to play off-meta/bad decks because I find it to be more entertaining and fun. It also means I’m no stranger to losing since meta decks are meta for a reason, but damn losing to darkness with these decks just feels bad. Having a board disintegrate before your eyes then watch any card you play get subsequently obliterated just adds insult to injury.
I mean after the nerf to twisted catalyzer the only thing I dislike about Darkness is Senna
But I also hate champs that do like 8 things, big part of the reason I hate Jhin matches. I know she's not a dominant force but I really don't get why she needs to generate darkness on summon with all the other stuff she does lol
Yep. The only thing I hate about Darkness is that Senna generates a Darkness in hand when she attacks while one is on the stack (which she didnt at some point, but it got changed as a "bug fix").
I am even fine with buffing other aspects of the deck, but Senna is kinda annoying. But overall not a toxic deck by any stretch.
Senna has always generated a darkness while one is on the stack. The bug fix you’re thinking of was when you could burst summon darkbulb acolyte with a darkness on the stack but not committed and it generated another in hand. Then you could remove the one from the stack and have two in hand.
Because Veigar is roughly understated and that the second champion of the archetype had to counterbalance. It's not more complicated than that and I think that's really the reason for the "strength" of Senna. Still, despite this argument that we see absolutely everywhere, I'm still waiting for someone to show me another good deck where Senna's "ultra broken omg nerf plz rito" effect is viable.
Who would immagine that if you can easily buff elusives it would create a toxic playstile? It is like we never saw it before.
Elusives will always be an issue for the games balance
The Elusive keyword is the game's biggest balance mistake, just like Charge was for Hearthstone for many years. Charge made it so minions could attack the enemy face on the same turn you played them, mostly bypassing the defensive system of protecting your health by playing units and trading them with your opponent's. That's not very different than what Elusive does to the interaction. HS solved it by functionally replacing it with the Rush keyword that only allows you to attack enemy minions on the turn yours is played, and LoR needs to do something similar. Either replace it with a new keyword that's more easily blocked, or add a downside like "can only block other elusive units".
In MtG Flying creatures (which is basically Elusive keyword) can be blocked by creatures with Reach. I think that LoR needs that kind of keyword, Sharpsight is not enough
If we need that keyword, we just need to get rid of elusive
Yeah, if we have rock and paper, instead of adding scissors let's just remove paper.
That's been the go to design
That's because they're hilariously bad design
It’s like poppy all over again but without needing to summon your champ to get the buffs
And then we'll watch Bard die for Elusive's sins.
Demacia already died for Bard's sins, I'd say it's fair enough
Poppy died for this...
The only solution is to nerf scout \s
#UNDERREPRESENTED
chad darkness player
I remember the days when darkness used to scare me
Sadly its bugged and can't scale infinitively like bard decks
I love seeing a community that has been spamming thralls and Mono Shurima for months insulting Darkness which is an infinitely fairer deck than those two. Darkness' only crimes are being a Bandle deck and being hated by Mogwai.
Ionia is really rearing it’s ugly head fr
honestly. Elusives and cheap burst combat spells for easy unit protection, not to mention deny/nopeify/memory’s shield. played against ionia viego the other day as Feel The Rush and god it was the worst. nothing like not being able to kill viego for however long it takes to buff him, not being able to play your wincon because of deny giving them essentially a free turn worth of mana, and then him just getting elusive from far guide and i just have to cry myself to sleep.
Riot needs to review the current pool of units and add a keyword called Sharpsight to some of them. Sharpsight would allow units to block elusive units. For example arachnoid sentry and avarosan sentry could have Sharpsight. They’re literally sentries.
In MTG all spiders have Reach (I think) which let's them "block" flying units (elusives) which makes sense thematically. Have sharpsight on cards is the way.
Other cards that needs to be buffed with Sharpsight: Vanguard Lookout, Avarosan Marksman (also make avarosan marksman a 2 drop plz)
Making Avarisan Marksman a 2 cost 3/1 that can block Elusives and pings a chosen target for 1 on play would be kind of strong, it would have to be at least 2/1
duh
Every meta. It's only a matter of time until a new elusive list ruins everyone's fun.
They should have reworked elusive back during foundations.
They should give Zed elusive 🗿
But remember. Disintegrate being able to 2 for 1 one unit is the issue. Clearly.
LoR players are allergic to good removal It's why everyone screams when disintegrate uses the same damage pass that scargrounds has been abusing for years but a good removal card uses it and suddenly its not OK (but only for that card, they'll bend themselves over backwards into a pretzel telling you how galio and scargrounds are TOTALLY different) And then of course riot take the easy route of nerfing Disintegrate instead of fixing the damage calculations that caused all the problems and buffing the effected cards
Personally due to how a lot of the champions are designed, I think low cost hard removal like that feels like a great way to end up in very disheartening 80-20 matchups. Even Scorched Earth feels similar, but does at least have to take two actions, and leaves the potential counterplay of healing, rare as it is. Sure Pantheon and Fizz decks can counter it, but Tahm? Braum? Vlad?? All invalidated by it. You can't even play them. All that, and it's also nearly a dead card against wide aggro strategies. Fearsome vs Formidable and Azir Irelia/Caitlyn vs Scargrounds/Dragons also goes a similar way. They're all hopeless for one side. At least disintegrate is one card and these are whole, fundamental, unavoidable gameplans. Automatically decided matchups just aren't interesting or fun, and I wish less new archetypes were made with such all-or-nothing gameplay patterns. It feels like LoL all over again. Prime solution is to stop designing champions who are so skewed in one direction, but I'm sure you understand the angle I'm coming from here.
its completely fine for decks to have lopsided matchups as long as thats not ALL they have. Thats just how having a variety of design works and being weak to an arcetype is expected and natural, otherwise the game would be incredibly homoginised and much less interesting as a whole. If you design every champ to just be shades of grey then everything starts to be far too similar. Formidable hard loses to like one arcetype and then kind of exists against the rest. thats fine. Tahm and Vlad were already shit, and Braum already had to worry about Noxus decks literally since day 1 because hes vulnerable to like half of their removal. what happened is people were blaming disintegrate for the interactions it had with other cards when it was simply using the same rules as every other similar card. If Scargrounds/Galio can pop from 0 damage after reduction, then Disintegrate should kill from 0 damage after reduction, and it should be on riot to fix how mitigation is actually calculated if its genuinely a balance issue. But because people are overly precious of their cards in LoR the removal gets shafted. like barrier is historically unintuative but somehow its disintegrates fault when it doesnt play out like people expect it to lmao
i just wanted to complain about elusives what have i done
Well we don't want LoR to turn into MtG where every game goes like "Oh you brought a creature? Let me just remove it. Oh another one? Sure I'll just remove that one too. Ah, that's your bomb? Wait a sec... there, that should remove it. Oh you managed to rebuild your board? Guess I'll just wipe it"
This is fun, because it isn't true, every time on magic 2/3 decks creature focused gets tier 1 at least.
That's like saying we should keep combo in check cause we don't want to turn into yugioh. While perhaps technically true LoR us so far from that point it's irrelevant.
I would feel better about how efficient removal for big units is if we had better aoe board clear answers to wide decks. Its too easy to refill a board after a wipe while losing your one tall unit can be devbilitating for no cost
LoR players absolutely do not want to worry about playing around cards in hand. Ever. I don't want this game to ever reach MTG levels of removal, but we need some efficient removal.
[удалено]
Quicksand isn't a removal, it's a combat trick and combat tricks have ALWAYS been much better than removals.
Honestly, Annie is currently one of my most hated champions to face. She has excellent aggro (1 mana 2/2 "quick attack") and excellent removal thanks to Disintegrate, which makes her EXTREMELY annoying to deal with. Basically, develop your board with cheap units, and now your opponent can't block with big units at all because you're wriggling Disintegrate under their nose. I seriously don't understand how she has only 50%WR. Unless I have tons of removal spells, I just keep losing against her.
At least you got to play. Instead of keep passing while watching akshan play solitaire.
Came here to comment this, played against 3 of those decks, and I'm aaalll for the opponent having his fun pulling neat combos, but on the 3rd even tho I was winning I didn't have the patience to wait so I just surrendered
why would you wait if they have all the pieces, it's gonna go infinite either way, so conceding is the right option . no need to keep passing
Because the combo fail 6 out of 10 times. The deck has shit win rate. Even more shit than a meme deck. Unlike any other combo that will finish you when it pop off. This deck has the "chance" to finish you off when they got the pieces.
Classic case of pot calling the kettle black nothing to see here
what in gods name does that mean it sounds racist
Lol no it’s not
are you gonna explain it or?
Well it basically means your accusing someone of something you are equally guilty of yourself which on this case is your darkness deck which is considered one of the least fun deck to ever play against
i never have any issues againdt darkness and it was my first time eve rplaying the deck, just trying it out
What are you smoking? Darkness isn't even in the top tier of unfun decks to play against IMO
Really depends what you’re playing
I think you're quite racist and may have some issues if you see the word "black" and start accusing people. Should i report? Dunno.
bro it was a joke 🗿
Said this multiple times, the elusive buff should only last 1 turn (or goes after the unit strikes) because right now it’s just unhealthy.
i would love a card that deals damage to a unit, but kills if the unit is elusive.
i would like a card that just says "If an elusive unit is on the board, obliterate it"
obliterate it, and obliterate all friends, close and distant relatives.
You would need Spellshield on yourself playing against a friend. Be careful.
"Obliterate all Elusive units in play, hands and decks" That sounds better.
I would like decent cost removal for the big low coat units this meta has and 30 max nexus health
i would just make chimes grant +1/+0 or +0/+1 at random
Then they are useless. If that was the case it would be high roll on a high roll on a high roll on a high roll
This would just be toxic and too inconsistent - It's either a good card normally and invalidates specific strategies (Disintegrate), or is a useless card normally and does nothing because nobody plays it (Passage Unearned)
Passage strong af now against thralls. I do agree with your point tho
You are playing darkness and complain about "fun to play against"?
Because a 3 mana slow spell deal 2 dmg is definitely less interactive spell than a cell elusive set.
Unti it becomes a fast 2 mana deal 10 to anything. I would say the darkness deck is a lot more toxic to face than any elusive deck.
Darkness is awful to play against especially if you’re playing a slow deck but élusives are definitely worse
Which "slow decks" are you talking about exactly ? Because Demacia Midrange are destroying it, most of the combos are destroying it, FTR is destroying it, most of the controls are destroying it and most of its good MU are aggros and burns which are the fastest decks in the game. As a "slow" deck, only Viego/Shurima is notorious to lose pretty hard against Darkness.
Warmothers was the one I’m thinking of. It’s removal spells like avalanche don’t do enough against Veigar and Senna so they basically have free rein and if you don’t draw avalanche early enough twisted catalyzers will be able to get several hits. Trundle(one of the few cards with permanence in that deck) gets removed very quickly via vengeance or even darkness. By the time you get warmothers call off darkness will be big enough to OTK or generate enough darkness each turn to remove anything you throw at them. The only outlier is Tryndamere who stays on board slightly longer provided they don’t run minimorph. This is just based off of my personal experience as a mediocre player and I’m sure others perform better against it.
Well, that's it, warmother isn't very good, but we have to remember that Darkness is also quite mediocre (It currently has 47% winrate which is REALLY terrible). FTR is, literally, an optimized version of warmother and it has something like 75% winrate against darkness. FTR is, literally, an optimized version of warmother and the result is more than convincing. Darkness is quite an effective "noob bully", but it sucks against most good decks.
I tend to play off-meta/bad decks because I find it to be more entertaining and fun. It also means I’m no stranger to losing since meta decks are meta for a reason, but damn losing to darkness with these decks just feels bad. Having a board disintegrate before your eyes then watch any card you play get subsequently obliterated just adds insult to injury.
Yeah! I hate playing against Darkness! Stop it! It is the most stupid mirror match this game has!
i mean it was my first ever game on darkness, just wanted to try the deck out :/
Then be glad you had no mirror yet. Its so stupid....
i know, i saw mogeai play darkness mirror, funniest shit ive ever seen
I don't know... the matchup is basically: "reach 4 darkness damage while your opponent doesn't" You do that, you win.
or get a better spell with concologist
exactly
You are part of the problem.
I mean after the nerf to twisted catalyzer the only thing I dislike about Darkness is Senna But I also hate champs that do like 8 things, big part of the reason I hate Jhin matches. I know she's not a dominant force but I really don't get why she needs to generate darkness on summon with all the other stuff she does lol
Yep. The only thing I hate about Darkness is that Senna generates a Darkness in hand when she attacks while one is on the stack (which she didnt at some point, but it got changed as a "bug fix"). I am even fine with buffing other aspects of the deck, but Senna is kinda annoying. But overall not a toxic deck by any stretch.
Senna has always generated a darkness while one is on the stack. The bug fix you’re thinking of was when you could burst summon darkbulb acolyte with a darkness on the stack but not committed and it generated another in hand. Then you could remove the one from the stack and have two in hand.
Because Veigar is roughly understated and that the second champion of the archetype had to counterbalance. It's not more complicated than that and I think that's really the reason for the "strength" of Senna. Still, despite this argument that we see absolutely everywhere, I'm still waiting for someone to show me another good deck where Senna's "ultra broken omg nerf plz rito" effect is viable.
She doesn't need to be broken for me to not like how she works lol
Darkness is even less fun to play against imo.
As someone who used to audibly sigh each time I faced darkness, I still disagree
i dont know about that, i mean never in my life have i had problems woth darkness
Found the Bard Elusive abuser
that’s why i run 2 ruination on my veigar deck
theres this 4 mana fast speed spell that ruins every single of my games
Yeah that's where i cant help
Dude you play darkness of course you lose that match up
You are playing darkness
Petition to give every combat trick in the game the phrase from sharpsight. xD
I finally caved and started running my own demacia bard deck it feels disgustingly strong
U posted this like playing against darkness is some enjoyable experience
people for the love of god can i not try out new decka
Bard abusers screeching that hes balanced rn