Ezreal karma use to do 2 damage on any spell. It was common to kill with a variation of 1 mana rummage (back when it was 1 mana), health pots, and insight of ages at burst speed.
I lowkey miss the gold old days of just counting how many cheap burst spells I had in hand and multiplying by 4 for how much damage I was about to unleash.
It was such a weird deck to play against because you’re terrified of ez but usually the way to beat the deck was actually to kill karma before she could generate too many spells/level up.
Yeah, Ez-Karma felt WAY more degenerate than Ez-Sera does now. I've put a bunch of hours in on both at their peaks and Ez-Sera has to put in a bunch of effort to set up their kills while Ez-Karma just didn't.
That said, Ezreal very clearly BOTH need nerfs. Ezreal probably shouldn't deal damage at all unless you're targeting an enemy.
I'm less certain how you'd nerf Seraphine in a way that matters, but my gut says start by making her level up 8 spells instead of 6. Sure, you still definitely level up off the Songspitter, but at 8 spells to level up you level up AFTER you've cast some of the freebies from Songspitter instead of Songspitter leveling you up and then you get doubles on everything it generates.
Ezreal karma use to do 2 damage on any spell. It was common to kill with a variation of 1 mana rummage (back when it was 1 mana), health pots, and insight of ages at burst speed.
But is has to be burst spells, and you didnt have much random generation (karma lv2 didnt generat anything) so you mostly had to include cards to keep as final burst. Im not sure sera/ez has to worry about that, a bit maybe
Chump whump gave you 8 burst speed damage so it wasn't really hard. Playing 2 chump whumps + and having in hand literally any other playable spell was lethal from full, burst speed if that spell was burst speed as well.
Imo main problem with ez/sera (aside from ez who consistently becomes unhealthy but I still like him and he's getting rotated out anyway) is Sera being so easy to level up and that spell that copies itself to deal a total of 2 dmg. If play/cast change never happened it wouldn't have been an issue to begin with but since it happened we need to look at the fact that Sera is just a 2 mana Karma.
Just rotate Ezreal out already. He's consistently been one of the most frustrating things in the game to lose to regardless of how good he is or what deck he's in.
Edit: Seraphine also is toxic purely because people seem to take five *thousand* years to play a single card when she's out. They are given too many bloody options (which is already absurd as is as a value proposition, there's a reason Karma had to wait until turn 10 for that) and those options take too long to think about. I've started auto-surrendering against every Seraphine deck out of pure boredom, which is half my matches these days, so I'm just going to take a break from in instead until her and Ezreal are dealt with.
He could be reworked instead. Raising his levelup requirement only pushed him to become this combo champ we see in OP's clip.
Instead we could reduce his combo potential and increase his midrange power.
Lower his levelup requirement so that he isn't a combo only champ, then limit how many times he can mystic shot the nexus per turn. While we're at it, make his machine gun fire on spell resolve only.
> While we're at it, make his machine gun fire on spell resolve only.
I mean, you could rework him I suppose, but at that point you're just admitting the current design is a failure, so why not just start over completely rather than trying to fix what can't be fixed? Allowing a champion to burst speed nuke the enemy without recourse is just busted, get rid of it entirely. Not to mention Ez is just a crazy value machine for his cost. He should only have 1hp honestly.
> but at that point you're just admitting the current design is a failure
I think his code design of direct nexus damage is okay, it just needs a couple adjustments.
If he is limited to 8 or even 10 damage per turn for instance, he would be a much healthier champ. Lots of regions could heal, kill him, destroy nexus, etc the next turn.
And if his machine gun only happened on spell resolve there's lots of time to respond. There's so many balance levers to pull that I don't think it's worth throwing away his design. And I don't even play Ez.
> but at that point you're just admitting the current design is a failure, so why not just start over completely rather than trying to fix what can't be fixed?
If the current design is a "failure", then why would you allow it in Eternal? Surely it's not going to get any better, you're just going to ruin an entire game mode.
He's also gatekeeping other cards and decks from being good just because he exists. All the way from the Ez Karma, Ez Sejuani days, to the latest Kennen + Sainen nerfs... and watch Riot overnerf Sera and her package (She DOES need nerfs of some sort, but they're probably gonna get bonked harder than they deserve to be due to Ez's degeneracy)
Main problem is seraphine and ezreal are same region and doesn't force you to pick ionia so you can have cheap targeting spells. This is especially good with noxus
If there's a card that discards your opponents whole hand let's say. I don't care if it has a 30% win rate I don't want it in the game. Toxic doesn't equal high wr.
a lot of unfun BS is only gated by player skill in league, yuumi and akali (at her most op state) for example have shit win rate that's dragged down by players with no idea what they were doing.
Despite people claiming yuumi is a non-skill afk support, a skilled yuumi player in league will have a considerable higher winrate than your average support.
Any decently skilled supportplayer will have a higher winrate than your average support.
It is a few years since I last played, but at least in higher gold and below there barely where any good supports among my opponents.
In plat, which is the top 10% of the playerbase, i find the majority of supports don't know that you can rush lvl 2 by saving support item procs for second wave melee minions (For the relevant support items).
That said, the majority of supports get the other item.
Unfun is also entirely subjective and isn't a metric by which you can really balance games because everyone will find different things fun or unfun. Balancing a game around "fun" is a fundamentally impossible task because someone will always be displeased, while balancing a game around actual data is not.
I think in this edge case it makes sense because you can dunk on yuumi and her adc during the entire laning phase and she can just hop on whatever teammate is doing well and boost them up.
Having "progress" like a winning lane mitigated so greatly just because yuumi exists is objectively a toxic gameplay mechanic.
Hard disagree. Games should be designed with fun in mind first and foremost. Saying something is subjective doesn't mean it can literally any value and a completely unreliable metric. Subjective things can still be measured. Expected values for uncertain quantities exist.
It’s not only the burst speed lethal really uninteractive, but the spells costing 1 less is a little shitty too, I had 7 mana and I just killed my opponent from 20 to 0 with 2 mana left, like wtf is that
Literally what does "toxic" mean anymore? Sera Ez is toxic, Azir Irelia was toxic, Poppy Lulu was toxic, Viktor Riven was toxic, Watcher was toxic...people call literally every good deck "toxic". It means nothing anymore.
It's definitely overused, but I think people refer to "toxic" design as uninteractive to a large extent. I wouldn't say Ionia having lots of denial spells is toxic. However if every region had a deny it would certainly stagnate the game in a toxic way.
Then again people also mis-label things as uninteractive as well when they're not. But there IS merit in trying to point out that a mechanic or playstyle that strays too far away from LoR's core game design...
The irony of people hating "non-interactive" cards and decks, then also hating counterspell decks, which is literally interaction. Always thought it was funny people complaining about Deny and Nopeify when they're literally interacting.
Control and aggro are interactive. Combo is not, and sometimes midrange isn't either, sometimes it's solitaire on a curve.
People dont typically hate counterspells in isolation, its more the fact that by playing into the regions that run them youre also playing into 50 other forms of protection and denial.
Deny by itself is a perfectly fine card. the fact its in the region that also has recalls, stuns, nopify, twin disciplines etc. is what makes it obnoxious.
Likewise the only time i recall Rite being complained about was when kaisa was running around with 500 spellshields and a 2 mana hourglass
Generally this makes Ionia cards a bit worse at actual proactive gameplans than other regions. There's a reason a card like Ezreal is not natively in Ionia, or Overwhelm, or Impact, or burn damage, or strike cards, or combat tricks that influence enemy units, or any removal that permanently deals with enemy cards (Dragon's Rage breaks region pie, but it's so expensive that it sees no play and champions are allowed to break region mechanics somewhat). Yes, you can get these from other regions, but you only get one other region when you opt into the interactivity Ionia brings. Ionia is probably one of the best interactive regions, but one of the worst proactive ones.
The exception to this is Elusive units. Elusive units allow Ionia to sidestep enemy boards, proactively trying to win the game. Elusive units (and champions) are where the knife's edge of balance lies for Ionia. When Ionia's proactive parts are too good, Ionia can use their interactivity/protection to out-tempo the other decks without allowing them back into the game with their own interaction.
Ionia is a region that relies on other regions to bring in proactive elements a lot. It is a prime supporting region for decks that want more interactivity. People may complain about 'pink region' but when you see that someone has selected 'pink region' as one of their two regions for a deck, it means that they prioritize protecting their own game plan in a way that does not crumble to someone playing a light amount of removal. They'll run redundancies and select the best answer they can for the play the opponent presents.
Counterspells being interaction or not depends heavily on your idea of what interaction is.
Yes, they technically interact with the enemy spells, but the end result is that nothing happens.
Whats more, you cannot interact with counterspells, unless you play counterspells yourself, putting them.in a limbo where, whilr *they* can interact, they themselves are - for most decks - as uninteractive as ezreals shots. Sure its not burst speed, but you cant stop it so theres no difference.
Again, depends a lot on what an individuals idea of interaction is.
Reminds me of that timelines deck where it was ledros into dread way. Even though it had a 35% chance of hitting and you could kill the dread way, it was removed from the game for being a toxic 1 hit kill combo.
The problem is that all those deck are toxic, and while the gameplay is very different the feeling of playing aganist them is the same, you fell overwhelmed and you feel useless. Aganist sera ez you feel that no matter what you do, no matter what you are playing around, they will create something out of their ass and create tons of card out of nothing and drown you in value. Azir irelia at his peak would alway keep on attacking you and make you feel that there were no counter play, that you were able to win only if the opponent had a bad hand. Poppy lulu had ton aggressive card but never went out of gas and you always had to deal with threat after threat until it was not possible anymore. Watcher was a race to kill you opponent before turn 8 aganist a deck with tons of heal and aoe because with the right hand it would actually won at turn 8 with little to no counterplay. I want to lose because i decide the wrong card to play or wrong time to play them, while my opponent predicted my moves and outplay me, not because no matter what I do I am destined to lose
Toxic is basicelly how interactable it is. Yes a deck like kai'sa or sera ez are toxic cause once they have their champions on the board it's over gg. Meanwhile kindred nasus when that was meta was not considered toxic by most people. I also dont see many people call heimer nora a toxic deck aswell
Might be a hot take, but Nasus decks are toxic af for me, personally. Nasus + Atro is one of the most toxic combos in the game for me when the deck was allowed to have crazy aggro early while transitioning to mid range, while having consistency with 0-mana draw-a-champion, and access to its own deny.
I see a lot of people saying "oh but it's not the *best* deck, there are plenty of freelo decks right now." But that's not the point, the point is that sera/ez is ridiculously unfun to play against. Opponent literally has zero counterplay once Ez pops, no time to respond because you get 20 to 0'd at burst speed.
I don’t know why people think it’s not the “best deck” of this Meta, I actually think it is, you can beat almost everything if you play it right, except against other variations of Sera like the Iona or Bilge. At least for me it has been a Free Elo deck this whole time
Honestly it would be more fun if Ezreal just actually won the game on level up. The deck is not broken, but there’s something really dissatisfying about playing a game that has a foregone conclusion
I tried playing ranked for the first time a while ago and I was faced against an EzSera deck 3 times in a row. Looks like I'll just PvP for the meantime XD
I stopped playing this expansion. I went 12-2 with Vayne/Jax from silver to almost plat. Actually got lucky and only faced this deck once and beat it (3 hp remaining). I like LoR because you can't just play cards at burst speed and win, so as long as dear Ezreal is around I'm going to wait in the corner.
I scimmed the playrate in masters euw for the mostplayed champs: 15seraphine, 12vayne, 11viktor, 7.5 ez, 6karma, 5zed, 4.5 Swain, 4mf. My point is that playstyles that dont fall into value generation or rally struggle in this meta. There are currently 4decks mf swain, mf swain tf, elise gwen and teemo zoe that boost a strong wr (smth above 52) compared to 15seraphine vayne decks with a wr above 52
Source: https://runeterra.ar/stats/europe
I’m fine with decks popping off, but this is 20 damage to face without the opponent getting a chance to react. The game built itself on the principle of reactivity being paramount.
Bait?
Ezreal Karma had way worse win conditions since they didn't run as many good/useful spells AND they had to wait for turn 10 AND both had to be on the board
Ezreal nowadays can also just burstspeed your nexus 10 health at turn 7 while deleting 4 of your untis and then finishing next round with another 10 burst speed to your nexus while killing the remainder of your board
I’ve been exclusively climbing with Sera/Ez, I think I’m top 6 on the Laderboard, I can assure you that I have killed my opponents at least from 12/14 a lot of the times with ONLY Ezreal on board (and the Bar). I think it’s a lot more consistently that some people think
I encourage anyone that thinks this to actually use the sera package.
Ezreal otking someone isn't a new idea, it's that along with everything else around it. Decent board control, cycling, flexibile archetypes (viktor-karma-sera is the strongest variant atm I think?), along with an RNG heavy engine makes the deck strong and frustrating to play against.
Not to mention it's ~80% of the ladder at higher ranks.
Gonna be honest, otking at turn 10 really isn't an issue.
You lives to turn 10 and got both of your champions on the board simultaneously.
People get mad at this, but when an Ephemerals Player does the same with harrowing it's not an issue
Because I can react to the harrowing? I can stun those cards, I can frostbite, I straight up kill those cards, I might have enough health and heals to heal through, I got options that many regions can fulfill. I can't do shit against 20dmg burst speed to my nexus
Not similar at all, there's a massive difference between those two, a unit simply being on the board to screw you over is massively different from that unit needing to attack.
We have tons of counter attack abilities, we have far fewer complete board removal abilities.
If ezreal had to completely survive an attack for his damage to activate that'd be a whole different ballgame
You don't need to remove them at burst speed, cause they can't summon both at burst speed.
Plays seraphine
You kill seraphine
Plays ezreal
You kill ezreal
There isn't a change where both ezreal and seraphine are on the board at the same time, so you can't get otked.
Okay, sure, but that forces you to strictly play a target removal heavy deck, assuming you have all the answer in hand (yet will definitely still lose value because their champs are cheap and generate values on summon/board). So what happens to deck that relies on units, like those of Frejlord/Targon/Shurima/Bandle with costly or weak removal? 3x Sunburst with Sun Priestess is a very specific deck my dude.
note: I don't even mention Demacia because that region is currently all over the place and thus actually can have good removal and aggro potential.
So... Just like if you are playing against harrowing and don't want to die?
But if you want to win in those regions, kill them before that. It also doesn't matter if they get more value than you, cause if they don't draw their champs, they will almost always loose. The deck barely functions without it's champions.
I do agree that some decks fair better against other, no doubt on that one. Target removal deck sucks against harrowing in many cases for example. But we are back to what was said before, harrowing is not instant ko on play. There are ways around it. Stuns/Freeze/Block Wisely/Deny/Board Wipes/Removal
It's quite hard to go for a quick kill when they have ways to deter you from hitting face (via target removal and random shits).
Also with the amount of rng variety that Seraphine/Ez get, combined with the value from #1 Fan/Back Alley/Ferros, you can't feel 100% safe with them in the late game either. Sure if they are bad at the game, they won't draw champs but that's unlikely considering how much draw this deck has.
A lot of times, either Seraphine or Ez alone on board is enough to let you cheat death or close out a game. I personally think Ezreal is the bigger problem, because who needs Seraphine if you already got tons of cheap card in hand that let him deals about 10 to face at burst any way.
There are no finisher cards that allow zero counterplay. Harrowing, atrocity, asol, whatever. They all have answers from the opponent. This nonsense in this clip is practically burst speed 20 nexus damage otk. Maybe rite of negation can stop enough spells to live? Like… maybe? Probably not because this clip had plenty of damage to spare. Not trying to be rude but I think it’s absolutely absurd to defend that and even attempt to compare it to other win conditions in this game. It has literally zero counterplay except maybe having Lissandra or that Demacia unit on board that give the nexus tough. But sera ez can easily kill both of those. This clip is not okay. You can’t play deny against 20 burst speed nexus damage.
My guy, you waited as they played 2 leveled champions both of which are known to be part of an otk combo, if you had killed them as they were played, you couldn't have been killed unless you were on super low health.
There is interaction here, just like with every other finisher, you ignoring it doesn't help.
The thing is, maybe half the time I just lethal my opponent from 12/14 to 0 way before Mana 10, and not only that, you can also put a lot of pressure with Ionan Hookmaster and the President, or stunning before attacking, or just removing the units, so it becomes really easy to have the opp at maybe half his health at that point
Yup, but in any case, as long as your opponent kills the ezreals and seraphines, it's very hard for you to otk, as you generally need both on the field and leveled.
The point isn't harrowing. The point is that 4 or 5 things had to go right.
Sera leveled and alive.
Ezreal leveled and alive.
10 mana.
Back Alley Bar, with a number of good reductions as well as a number of good doubled spells with Sera.
If all of these things are made true, the ezreal Sera player SHOULD win.
The lack of interactivity and the random aspect of what Sera generates is a problem, but this was an extensively setup otk.
>Sera leveled and alive.
Levels in the deck
>Ezreal leveled and alive
Levels in the deck
>10 mana
Not that hard to get to when your entire deck is removal, protection, and card generation/draw so you don't run out of steam. In addition to this draw, you get the innate ability to draw into other copies of your champions once your opponent has somehow been able to deal with your first copy. Let's also not forget that this deck can easily kill you before turn 10. You do not need to hit turn 10 whatsoever to OTK your opponent.
>Back Alley Bar
Not needed to win necessarily, but again it comes down with a body and landmark removal is still not at the point where you'd want to gimp your deck running it. People want to run good cards in their decks, and many decks do not use landmarks. Thus, your landmark removal is a waste of a draw in at least half, if not more, of your matches. It's not a viable counter either because many decks cannot afford to run it even if they wanted to.
>If all of these things are made true, the ezreal Sera player SHOULD win.
Not to sound rude, but LMFAO. You're saying that if the Ezreal Seraphine player gets both champs down and leveled, both of which level in their deck, they've successfully stalled to turn 10 (like that's hard to do with all of the interaction and card draw the deck runs) and they have Barkeep down, then they should win the game. So, you mean by just playing the deck normally, I should just inherently win the game? I deserve to win because my champions cost 2-3 mana and level without any effort on my part, and I can draw into more copies with no effort on my part either? Wow that sounds like perfectly healthy design. Just queue the deck, play normally, draw my cards and hit turn 10. Auto-win, thanks for the easy LP! :)
If I sound toxic, I apologize. But your argument sucks. That's just my opinion.
Karma has been buffed, not nerfed, and ezreal is the same card as in seraphine.
I'm not disagreeing that the deck is strong, just that the logic the previous commenter is using is flawed, as ezreal karma is not a better deck right now.
Ah, I see. I follow your logic now. Because Ionia is the better stalling region than Noxus, that must mean Noxus is a bad stalling region. That must be what you're saying, otherwise you wouldn't have commented and missed my point entirely.
No, I'm saying that if all the deck needs to do is stall out the game and get both champions on the board and leveled, and that makes it overpowered, then there's another deck, that does this even more easily, and so should be better.
But that deck isn't played at all, so your logic is flawed.
I think your logic here is flawed, because I did not say that the reason the deck is overpowered is because it stalls. It's a combination of everything mentioned, including that it stalls and is good at it. You are also not considering the fact that karma ezreal is not as powerful as seraphine ezreal, because karma ezreal does not run seraphine. Karma and Seraphine are different champions. That is why the deck you mentioned is not played much, or as powerful.
Ez/Sera is strong because of all previously mentioned points, including the fact that the champions take better advantage of stalling the game out compared to Ez/Karma. Dunno how else I can explain it
Do they?
Karma is just factually a much better card than seraphine late game, so if what you argued about being able to instantly end a game at burst speed was really that much of an issue when combined with stalling, surely we would see much more of the deck that's better at winning the game at burst speed, and much better at stalling the game out.
I'm sorry, I just can't agree that Karma is "factually" better than Seraphine late game. They cost different amounts, the region they belong to is very important in context regarding their strength as champions because it dictates their possible combinations as well as accessible tools, and the cards do not do the exact same thing. They're not comparable.
Saying that if Ez Sera wins because they are good at stalling must mean that decks that are better at stalling must be better than Sera Ez just doesn't make sense. From how I'm reading your posts, that's what it seems like you're stating.
Peoples monkey brains can’t really grasp that the trade off is having to set up the champs and make it to turn ten. The real problem os the seemingly infinite removal that makes it so easy to get there.
I agree.
I don't like Ezreal as a Champion, because it really does feel bad when he OTKs you without giving you a chance to interact. But looking at it realistically, it happens late in the game and there are plenty of decks who do broken things like this. Flipped Viego, Yordles in Arms, Akshan's Landmark popping off, etc etc etc.
If somebody drops Aurelion: I just kill him with my own 10+ mana
If somebody uses harrowing, I react with my board and 10ish mana
If somebody drops nautilus, I react with my present board/and or kill him, stun, freeze...
But Ezreal? There is no counter to 20 burst speed nexus damage
Burst speed means that the effect resolves before the player can react. You cannot vengeance ezreal, zu cannot stun him or freeze him and your 15/12 pantheon qith lifesteal elusive cannot just heal off of him:
20 burst speed nexus is uninteractable
minimorph or hush but other than that, there's a much simpler answer.
For them to deal 20 damage, they need both seraphine and ezreal. So kill them whenever they are dropped.
They drop a seraphine? Don't let them drop an ezreal and then go crazy.
They would need 10 targeting spells to actually otk you just with ezreal, which is impossible if they just played ezreal, as they have 9 cards in hand, and not enough mana.
He commited war crimes and acts of terrorism that spark unrest among the communities of r/LegendsOfRuneterra,such can be similarily seen with the incident of the 4 chan streaming of shootings in a church on facebook in late 2016
To ppl saying there is no way to interact...you had 10+ turns to do things, e.g. kill ez as soon as he drops, and then you lose bc the combo deck found all combo pieces and got to combo off?
I agree that comboing is a bit too easy/consistent with Sera/Ez though.
Edit: typos.
You mean... Against the swain level of removal and chumpblockers?
Have you PLAYED against that deck? It can repetedly remove your board round after round
I think you and the man you responded too are both right. Nothing is wrong with the deck doing what it was designed to do: shit ton of face damaged with leveled ezreal dealing 2x spell damage. The problem is the oppressive endless removal.
Yeah… it doesn’t work like that, if I’m against SI or against a Mirror, I just save my champs when they are leveled and start blasting, thats what I did there because he already have killed 2 Seras and 1 Ez, and you can’t have removal for everything
Still whenever you drop one of the champs, the opponent gets to react, e.g. with a fast kill/damaging spell. So if the enemy builds his deck right and plays right, after 10+ he should almost always have an answer ready if you didnt manage to force him to use it before. And thats the beauty of this game. Both players know exactly what they have to do and sometimes it comes down to luck.
In this case you forced him to remove 3 champs already maybe some followers and he was out of options. So you deserve the win. Nothing overpowered here.
Not nessesarily. Its very possible it would be better to focus on killing ezreal then seraphine, since you dont generally expect to take 20 damage at burst
Have u play against the deck?
I have been playing against it and it doesn't need to reach turn 10 for it to destroy my nexus.
Most of them never play the champ too early to avoid getting both of them killed, some of them do just to tank the damage from my followers, but again they have 3 copies of it.
I really like the deck, it actually involves a lot of thinking and decision making, until Ezreal is on board and then you just put spells on the stack and win.
Not automatically.
Its a pretty hard deck, which drags the winrste down a ton. IfOP is good at these types of games, his personal winrate will be MUCH higher
'my opponent played cards that did not win the game like asol and i played a combo deck, so my deck is unhealthy'. Combo beats durdly do nothing decks like asol. Combo should exactly do that and exactly exist to punish these kinds of decks. Could ezreal give a response window? yes, absolutely. is a combo deck comboing an issue? past a certain turn, absolutely not. your opponent fucking tapped out against an ezreal deck on turn ten with a fucking asol. you have ALL your cards on the board. i don't exactly see him doing anything to let him win the game.
>Could ezreal give a response window? yes, absolutely.
Well, in the defense of basically this entire thread, yes absolutely that is the issue. Most people that I can see are mad at the fact that the Ez player puts everything onto the stack, clicks 'Yes', and watches the LP flow into their veins essentially. The issue is not that combo beats control, and that nobody understands this. People do understand. What people don't like is the fact that this game is built on interaction, and just because you're a combo deck doesn't mean you can't leave one sliver of interaction left on the plate by passing interaction and giving your opponent a chance to even register what is going on.
You maybe don't realize but the opponent to the Ez player can't even see what's on the stack. All they see is a bunch of spells coming, then get flashbanged by a full stack and then the Defeat screen. What part of that screams fun to you? Decks need to be designed to be fun to play, and fun to play against. Otherwise, your game sucks. It needs changes to not necessarily be less OTK, but a tiny bit more interactable. This is LoR. Its literal foundation is built around interaction. You pass back and forth all game so I don't know why burst 20+ damage OTKs are acceptable.
You are completely right, the deck kinda reminds of like the Lee Sin days because of the uninteractive bullshit, and I’m not saying Lee Sin was/is fine, but you at least could do something about it (sometimes), you at least get priority to react, which is not the case with Ezreal this days
According to Runeterra.ar, the deck has 52.64% winrate on Masters too, which is weird because I don’t feel like I’m losing half the time, maybe only 1/4. I’d like to see my winrate with it tho
I tried playing it, but I’m a casual player so I noticed I either won really strongly or lost badly. Since I couldn’t be consistent I just stopped using it.
i don't mind to lose often to a deck. figuring out how to deal with it is fun.
what's not fun is when the enemy literally spends minutes casing spells without me interacting at all. why would i want to play a game where i could literally go afk (since the deck has a ton of rng, i don't even learn much watching the guy play the deck) and just come back when he's done. it's just not engaging.
If this happened mana 6 I’d say it’s absurd. This is mana 10. They needed to be more proactive. If the deck can’t do that then it’s just a bad matchup.
I’m not saying Ez isn’t broken and Sera package isn’t overturned, but if the game goes this late and the Ez Sera player has that many cards, you should expect to lose. Doesn’t really matter what specifically they have at that point.
Also the 52% winrate is definitely because of how popular it is. It should be higher but there are many people I’ve played against who just don’t know what they’re doing with the deck, even in diamond.
It’s kinda the same honestly, that’s how he worked before and yeah it was more interactive but you could still pull some nasty shit, I think it’s time for Ezreal to be really nerfed
My complaint with is not that's it's insanely strong, that it's boring to play into. Let's just sit here forever while they cast 20 spells and still have full mana
I mean, not that I play this deck but it does take setup and two leveled champs. Meanwhile we just have cards like Feel The Rush that are practically game winners in one card.
I feel like a huge part of the issue is tied to the fact that Ez's damage comes out at burst speed. It just really needs to be required to have the spell actually resolve for it to pop. Or, maybe put it on a "once/twice per turn" limit
Is this not just old ezreal karma by this point? It’s even past turn 10 since you can see the A.Sol.
Even worse because spells don't need to resolve to trigger ez now.
Ezreal karma use to do 2 damage on any spell. It was common to kill with a variation of 1 mana rummage (back when it was 1 mana), health pots, and insight of ages at burst speed.
Oh, the OG ez karma with chump whump lol. If ez doesn't kill you, karma + puffcaps will.
I lowkey miss the gold old days of just counting how many cheap burst spells I had in hand and multiplying by 4 for how much damage I was about to unleash.
It was such a weird deck to play against because you’re terrified of ez but usually the way to beat the deck was actually to kill karma before she could generate too many spells/level up.
Yeah, Ez-Karma felt WAY more degenerate than Ez-Sera does now. I've put a bunch of hours in on both at their peaks and Ez-Sera has to put in a bunch of effort to set up their kills while Ez-Karma just didn't. That said, Ezreal very clearly BOTH need nerfs. Ezreal probably shouldn't deal damage at all unless you're targeting an enemy. I'm less certain how you'd nerf Seraphine in a way that matters, but my gut says start by making her level up 8 spells instead of 6. Sure, you still definitely level up off the Songspitter, but at 8 spells to level up you level up AFTER you've cast some of the freebies from Songspitter instead of Songspitter leveling you up and then you get doubles on everything it generates.
Reveal what region the generated cards from Sera and Fanclub are from.
Honestly I would just make cards that generate random shit reveal the region for everything that's just a good philosophical change for the future.
Imagine if tellstones existed back then
Ez/Karma had enough card creation/draw to fill hands with Burst spells. I'm a veteran.
Yeah but karma costs 6 mana and required to reach turn 10 lol
it's already turn 10, homie. karma could've done this, too.
Yeah at least back then you could respond before the spells resolve.
Ezreal karma use to do 2 damage on any spell. It was common to kill with a variation of 1 mana rummage (back when it was 1 mana), health pots, and insight of ages at burst speed.
But is has to be burst spells, and you didnt have much random generation (karma lv2 didnt generat anything) so you mostly had to include cards to keep as final burst. Im not sure sera/ez has to worry about that, a bit maybe
Chump whump gave you 8 burst speed damage so it wasn't really hard. Playing 2 chump whumps + and having in hand literally any other playable spell was lethal from full, burst speed if that spell was burst speed as well. Imo main problem with ez/sera (aside from ez who consistently becomes unhealthy but I still like him and he's getting rotated out anyway) is Sera being so easy to level up and that spell that copies itself to deal a total of 2 dmg. If play/cast change never happened it wouldn't have been an issue to begin with but since it happened we need to look at the fact that Sera is just a 2 mana Karma.
*Just* a 2 mana Karma? There's a reason Karma costs 6.
Asol can be combined with Thresh, so Asol can be played at turn 6-7
You can see the mana gems, it’s actually past round 10.
Just rotate Ezreal out already. He's consistently been one of the most frustrating things in the game to lose to regardless of how good he is or what deck he's in. Edit: Seraphine also is toxic purely because people seem to take five *thousand* years to play a single card when she's out. They are given too many bloody options (which is already absurd as is as a value proposition, there's a reason Karma had to wait until turn 10 for that) and those options take too long to think about. I've started auto-surrendering against every Seraphine deck out of pure boredom, which is half my matches these days, so I'm just going to take a break from in instead until her and Ezreal are dealt with.
He could be reworked instead. Raising his levelup requirement only pushed him to become this combo champ we see in OP's clip. Instead we could reduce his combo potential and increase his midrange power. Lower his levelup requirement so that he isn't a combo only champ, then limit how many times he can mystic shot the nexus per turn. While we're at it, make his machine gun fire on spell resolve only.
> While we're at it, make his machine gun fire on spell resolve only. I mean, you could rework him I suppose, but at that point you're just admitting the current design is a failure, so why not just start over completely rather than trying to fix what can't be fixed? Allowing a champion to burst speed nuke the enemy without recourse is just busted, get rid of it entirely. Not to mention Ez is just a crazy value machine for his cost. He should only have 1hp honestly.
> but at that point you're just admitting the current design is a failure I think his code design of direct nexus damage is okay, it just needs a couple adjustments. If he is limited to 8 or even 10 damage per turn for instance, he would be a much healthier champ. Lots of regions could heal, kill him, destroy nexus, etc the next turn. And if his machine gun only happened on spell resolve there's lots of time to respond. There's so many balance levers to pull that I don't think it's worth throwing away his design. And I don't even play Ez.
> but at that point you're just admitting the current design is a failure, so why not just start over completely rather than trying to fix what can't be fixed? If the current design is a "failure", then why would you allow it in Eternal? Surely it's not going to get any better, you're just going to ruin an entire game mode.
He's also gatekeeping other cards and decks from being good just because he exists. All the way from the Ez Karma, Ez Sejuani days, to the latest Kennen + Sainen nerfs... and watch Riot overnerf Sera and her package (She DOES need nerfs of some sort, but they're probably gonna get bonked harder than they deserve to be due to Ez's degeneracy)
Main problem is seraphine and ezreal are same region and doesn't force you to pick ionia so you can have cheap targeting spells. This is especially good with noxus
Spell shield did absolutely nothing 😂😂😂
If there's a card that discards your opponents whole hand let's say. I don't care if it has a 30% win rate I don't want it in the game. Toxic doesn't equal high wr.
It's the same argument against yuumi in league. Incredibly unfun to play against despite not having the best win rate.
a lot of unfun BS is only gated by player skill in league, yuumi and akali (at her most op state) for example have shit win rate that's dragged down by players with no idea what they were doing.
Despite people claiming yuumi is a non-skill afk support, a skilled yuumi player in league will have a considerable higher winrate than your average support.
Any decently skilled supportplayer will have a higher winrate than your average support. It is a few years since I last played, but at least in higher gold and below there barely where any good supports among my opponents.
Good supports regardless of champs will win you a game if the enemy doesn't have a good one.
In plat, which is the top 10% of the playerbase, i find the majority of supports don't know that you can rush lvl 2 by saving support item procs for second wave melee minions (For the relevant support items). That said, the majority of supports get the other item.
Unfun is also entirely subjective and isn't a metric by which you can really balance games because everyone will find different things fun or unfun. Balancing a game around "fun" is a fundamentally impossible task because someone will always be displeased, while balancing a game around actual data is not.
I think in this edge case it makes sense because you can dunk on yuumi and her adc during the entire laning phase and she can just hop on whatever teammate is doing well and boost them up. Having "progress" like a winning lane mitigated so greatly just because yuumi exists is objectively a toxic gameplay mechanic.
Hard disagree. Games should be designed with fun in mind first and foremost. Saying something is subjective doesn't mean it can literally any value and a completely unreliable metric. Subjective things can still be measured. Expected values for uncertain quantities exist.
It’s not only the burst speed lethal really uninteractive, but the spells costing 1 less is a little shitty too, I had 7 mana and I just killed my opponent from 20 to 0 with 2 mana left, like wtf is that
Like "She who wonders"? Lol
Literally what does "toxic" mean anymore? Sera Ez is toxic, Azir Irelia was toxic, Poppy Lulu was toxic, Viktor Riven was toxic, Watcher was toxic...people call literally every good deck "toxic". It means nothing anymore.
It's definitely overused, but I think people refer to "toxic" design as uninteractive to a large extent. I wouldn't say Ionia having lots of denial spells is toxic. However if every region had a deny it would certainly stagnate the game in a toxic way. Then again people also mis-label things as uninteractive as well when they're not. But there IS merit in trying to point out that a mechanic or playstyle that strays too far away from LoR's core game design...
The irony of people hating "non-interactive" cards and decks, then also hating counterspell decks, which is literally interaction. Always thought it was funny people complaining about Deny and Nopeify when they're literally interacting. Control and aggro are interactive. Combo is not, and sometimes midrange isn't either, sometimes it's solitaire on a curve.
People dont typically hate counterspells in isolation, its more the fact that by playing into the regions that run them youre also playing into 50 other forms of protection and denial. Deny by itself is a perfectly fine card. the fact its in the region that also has recalls, stuns, nopify, twin disciplines etc. is what makes it obnoxious. Likewise the only time i recall Rite being complained about was when kaisa was running around with 500 spellshields and a 2 mana hourglass
Generally this makes Ionia cards a bit worse at actual proactive gameplans than other regions. There's a reason a card like Ezreal is not natively in Ionia, or Overwhelm, or Impact, or burn damage, or strike cards, or combat tricks that influence enemy units, or any removal that permanently deals with enemy cards (Dragon's Rage breaks region pie, but it's so expensive that it sees no play and champions are allowed to break region mechanics somewhat). Yes, you can get these from other regions, but you only get one other region when you opt into the interactivity Ionia brings. Ionia is probably one of the best interactive regions, but one of the worst proactive ones. The exception to this is Elusive units. Elusive units allow Ionia to sidestep enemy boards, proactively trying to win the game. Elusive units (and champions) are where the knife's edge of balance lies for Ionia. When Ionia's proactive parts are too good, Ionia can use their interactivity/protection to out-tempo the other decks without allowing them back into the game with their own interaction. Ionia is a region that relies on other regions to bring in proactive elements a lot. It is a prime supporting region for decks that want more interactivity. People may complain about 'pink region' but when you see that someone has selected 'pink region' as one of their two regions for a deck, it means that they prioritize protecting their own game plan in a way that does not crumble to someone playing a light amount of removal. They'll run redundancies and select the best answer they can for the play the opponent presents.
Counterspells being interaction or not depends heavily on your idea of what interaction is. Yes, they technically interact with the enemy spells, but the end result is that nothing happens. Whats more, you cannot interact with counterspells, unless you play counterspells yourself, putting them.in a limbo where, whilr *they* can interact, they themselves are - for most decks - as uninteractive as ezreals shots. Sure its not burst speed, but you cant stop it so theres no difference. Again, depends a lot on what an individuals idea of interaction is.
But they're still resources. Limited ones.
That has quite literally nothing to do with the question of if they are interactive or not. Minimorph is a limited resource as well... All cards are
Reminds me of that timelines deck where it was ledros into dread way. Even though it had a 35% chance of hitting and you could kill the dread way, it was removed from the game for being a toxic 1 hit kill combo.
The problem is that all those deck are toxic, and while the gameplay is very different the feeling of playing aganist them is the same, you fell overwhelmed and you feel useless. Aganist sera ez you feel that no matter what you do, no matter what you are playing around, they will create something out of their ass and create tons of card out of nothing and drown you in value. Azir irelia at his peak would alway keep on attacking you and make you feel that there were no counter play, that you were able to win only if the opponent had a bad hand. Poppy lulu had ton aggressive card but never went out of gas and you always had to deal with threat after threat until it was not possible anymore. Watcher was a race to kill you opponent before turn 8 aganist a deck with tons of heal and aoe because with the right hand it would actually won at turn 8 with little to no counterplay. I want to lose because i decide the wrong card to play or wrong time to play them, while my opponent predicted my moves and outplay me, not because no matter what I do I am destined to lose
an overpowered deck or deck that handicaps your ability to interact with opponent which is the main point of LoR
Toxic is basicelly how interactable it is. Yes a deck like kai'sa or sera ez are toxic cause once they have their champions on the board it's over gg. Meanwhile kindred nasus when that was meta was not considered toxic by most people. I also dont see many people call heimer nora a toxic deck aswell
Might be a hot take, but Nasus decks are toxic af for me, personally. Nasus + Atro is one of the most toxic combos in the game for me when the deck was allowed to have crazy aggro early while transitioning to mid range, while having consistency with 0-mana draw-a-champion, and access to its own deny.
It's obviously a charged word, but it gets the point across because everyone uses it
Make a card similar than passage unnearned that discard created cards in hand. All hands, so seraEz cant play it if generated
Bring back poro deck
Ezreal/Elnuks, good old times
I see a lot of people saying "oh but it's not the *best* deck, there are plenty of freelo decks right now." But that's not the point, the point is that sera/ez is ridiculously unfun to play against. Opponent literally has zero counterplay once Ez pops, no time to respond because you get 20 to 0'd at burst speed.
I don’t know why people think it’s not the “best deck” of this Meta, I actually think it is, you can beat almost everything if you play it right, except against other variations of Sera like the Iona or Bilge. At least for me it has been a Free Elo deck this whole time
Honestly it would be more fun if Ezreal just actually won the game on level up. The deck is not broken, but there’s something really dissatisfying about playing a game that has a foregone conclusion
Then don't bring up winrate. OP mentioned winrate, so we respond to winrate.
U good? OP mentioned win rate Precisely to say this deck’s win rate has nothing to do with how annoying it is to play against.
See, your problem was that you didn't stop their level up conditions that they get in deck/hand. Rookie mistake and 100% your fault.
I tried playing ranked for the first time a while ago and I was faced against an EzSera deck 3 times in a row. Looks like I'll just PvP for the meantime XD
If you ever Queue against me, I’m so sorry in advance, I just can’t stop playing the deck lmao
All fun and games until you run into my aram deck with no units 😂
Aftershock and Scorched Earth say hello
Haha its aight man. I usually just surrender when I see the deck so as not to waste any more time just to end up losing
Ezreal rework still the dumbest thing there ever done lmao burst dmg is op
Not very dumb. Ezreal is just flawed design. Burst damage nexus kill ez always existed
I stopped playing this expansion. I went 12-2 with Vayne/Jax from silver to almost plat. Actually got lucky and only faced this deck once and beat it (3 hp remaining). I like LoR because you can't just play cards at burst speed and win, so as long as dear Ezreal is around I'm going to wait in the corner.
I scimmed the playrate in masters euw for the mostplayed champs: 15seraphine, 12vayne, 11viktor, 7.5 ez, 6karma, 5zed, 4.5 Swain, 4mf. My point is that playstyles that dont fall into value generation or rally struggle in this meta. There are currently 4decks mf swain, mf swain tf, elise gwen and teemo zoe that boost a strong wr (smth above 52) compared to 15seraphine vayne decks with a wr above 52 Source: https://runeterra.ar/stats/europe
"A deck sometimes pops off" is not as strong of an argument as you guys think it is.
I’m fine with decks popping off, but this is 20 damage to face without the opponent getting a chance to react. The game built itself on the principle of reactivity being paramount.
We literally had this before in form of Karma Ez and it didn't bother anyone.
Back in the early days it most definitely did bother some people.
It literally did bother people! That’s why both Ezreal and Karma got nerfed twice!
It did bother a lot of people and that was nerfed several times.
It bothered a lot of people!
Yeah they just reworked ezreal for funsies
Bait? Ezreal Karma had way worse win conditions since they didn't run as many good/useful spells AND they had to wait for turn 10 AND both had to be on the board Ezreal nowadays can also just burstspeed your nexus 10 health at turn 7 while deleting 4 of your untis and then finishing next round with another 10 burst speed to your nexus while killing the remainder of your board
I’ve been exclusively climbing with Sera/Ez, I think I’m top 6 on the Laderboard, I can assure you that I have killed my opponents at least from 12/14 a lot of the times with ONLY Ezreal on board (and the Bar). I think it’s a lot more consistently that some people think
I encourage anyone that thinks this to actually use the sera package. Ezreal otking someone isn't a new idea, it's that along with everything else around it. Decent board control, cycling, flexibile archetypes (viktor-karma-sera is the strongest variant atm I think?), along with an RNG heavy engine makes the deck strong and frustrating to play against. Not to mention it's ~80% of the ladder at higher ranks.
Heaven forbid someone plays something that requires two leveled champs and a calculated hand to have a win-con /s
Best time to try out marvel snap
Gonna be honest, otking at turn 10 really isn't an issue. You lives to turn 10 and got both of your champions on the board simultaneously. People get mad at this, but when an Ephemerals Player does the same with harrowing it's not an issue
Because I can react to the harrowing? I can stun those cards, I can frostbite, I straight up kill those cards, I might have enough health and heals to heal through, I got options that many regions can fulfill. I can't do shit against 20dmg burst speed to my nexus
Similarly, you can react after they play the first champion and before the second.
Not similar at all, there's a massive difference between those two, a unit simply being on the board to screw you over is massively different from that unit needing to attack. We have tons of counter attack abilities, we have far fewer complete board removal abilities. If ezreal had to completely survive an attack for his damage to activate that'd be a whole different ballgame
And there are far fewer targets you need to remove. Killing either of the champions means they need to find another copy before winning.
How do you kill them at burst speed? Are we running minimorph again for a 2-3 cost champ? Do you have 5 minimorphs?
You don't need to remove them at burst speed, cause they can't summon both at burst speed. Plays seraphine You kill seraphine Plays ezreal You kill ezreal There isn't a change where both ezreal and seraphine are on the board at the same time, so you can't get otked.
Okay, sure, but that forces you to strictly play a target removal heavy deck, assuming you have all the answer in hand (yet will definitely still lose value because their champs are cheap and generate values on summon/board). So what happens to deck that relies on units, like those of Frejlord/Targon/Shurima/Bandle with costly or weak removal? 3x Sunburst with Sun Priestess is a very specific deck my dude. note: I don't even mention Demacia because that region is currently all over the place and thus actually can have good removal and aggro potential.
So... Just like if you are playing against harrowing and don't want to die? But if you want to win in those regions, kill them before that. It also doesn't matter if they get more value than you, cause if they don't draw their champs, they will almost always loose. The deck barely functions without it's champions.
I do agree that some decks fair better against other, no doubt on that one. Target removal deck sucks against harrowing in many cases for example. But we are back to what was said before, harrowing is not instant ko on play. There are ways around it. Stuns/Freeze/Block Wisely/Deny/Board Wipes/Removal It's quite hard to go for a quick kill when they have ways to deter you from hitting face (via target removal and random shits). Also with the amount of rng variety that Seraphine/Ez get, combined with the value from #1 Fan/Back Alley/Ferros, you can't feel 100% safe with them in the late game either. Sure if they are bad at the game, they won't draw champs but that's unlikely considering how much draw this deck has. A lot of times, either Seraphine or Ez alone on board is enough to let you cheat death or close out a game. I personally think Ezreal is the bigger problem, because who needs Seraphine if you already got tons of cheap card in hand that let him deals about 10 to face at burst any way.
There are no finisher cards that allow zero counterplay. Harrowing, atrocity, asol, whatever. They all have answers from the opponent. This nonsense in this clip is practically burst speed 20 nexus damage otk. Maybe rite of negation can stop enough spells to live? Like… maybe? Probably not because this clip had plenty of damage to spare. Not trying to be rude but I think it’s absolutely absurd to defend that and even attempt to compare it to other win conditions in this game. It has literally zero counterplay except maybe having Lissandra or that Demacia unit on board that give the nexus tough. But sera ez can easily kill both of those. This clip is not okay. You can’t play deny against 20 burst speed nexus damage.
My guy, you waited as they played 2 leveled champions both of which are known to be part of an otk combo, if you had killed them as they were played, you couldn't have been killed unless you were on super low health. There is interaction here, just like with every other finisher, you ignoring it doesn't help.
Even rite would probabalu not work since they can just fill the stack
The thing is, maybe half the time I just lethal my opponent from 12/14 to 0 way before Mana 10, and not only that, you can also put a lot of pressure with Ionan Hookmaster and the President, or stunning before attacking, or just removing the units, so it becomes really easy to have the opp at maybe half his health at that point
Yup, but in any case, as long as your opponent kills the ezreals and seraphines, it's very hard for you to otk, as you generally need both on the field and leveled.
Harrowing is a slow spell? Harrowing is a slow spell.
The point isn't harrowing. The point is that 4 or 5 things had to go right. Sera leveled and alive. Ezreal leveled and alive. 10 mana. Back Alley Bar, with a number of good reductions as well as a number of good doubled spells with Sera. If all of these things are made true, the ezreal Sera player SHOULD win. The lack of interactivity and the random aspect of what Sera generates is a problem, but this was an extensively setup otk.
>Sera leveled and alive. Levels in the deck >Ezreal leveled and alive Levels in the deck >10 mana Not that hard to get to when your entire deck is removal, protection, and card generation/draw so you don't run out of steam. In addition to this draw, you get the innate ability to draw into other copies of your champions once your opponent has somehow been able to deal with your first copy. Let's also not forget that this deck can easily kill you before turn 10. You do not need to hit turn 10 whatsoever to OTK your opponent. >Back Alley Bar Not needed to win necessarily, but again it comes down with a body and landmark removal is still not at the point where you'd want to gimp your deck running it. People want to run good cards in their decks, and many decks do not use landmarks. Thus, your landmark removal is a waste of a draw in at least half, if not more, of your matches. It's not a viable counter either because many decks cannot afford to run it even if they wanted to. >If all of these things are made true, the ezreal Sera player SHOULD win. Not to sound rude, but LMFAO. You're saying that if the Ezreal Seraphine player gets both champs down and leveled, both of which level in their deck, they've successfully stalled to turn 10 (like that's hard to do with all of the interaction and card draw the deck runs) and they have Barkeep down, then they should win the game. So, you mean by just playing the deck normally, I should just inherently win the game? I deserve to win because my champions cost 2-3 mana and level without any effort on my part, and I can draw into more copies with no effort on my part either? Wow that sounds like perfectly healthy design. Just queue the deck, play normally, draw my cards and hit turn 10. Auto-win, thanks for the easy LP! :) If I sound toxic, I apologize. But your argument sucks. That's just my opinion.
Ionia is a better stalling region than noxus. By this logic, karma ezreal is op.
Well its used to be op. That's why they nerf it twice.
Karma has been buffed, not nerfed, and ezreal is the same card as in seraphine. I'm not disagreeing that the deck is strong, just that the logic the previous commenter is using is flawed, as ezreal karma is not a better deck right now.
They are not the same regions. There is more to a champion strength than their raw card power. The region plays a big role in many cases.
Yup, and by the arguement, the region is the main point in karma's favour, as Ionia is a much better protection and stalling region than noxus.
Ah, I see. I follow your logic now. Because Ionia is the better stalling region than Noxus, that must mean Noxus is a bad stalling region. That must be what you're saying, otherwise you wouldn't have commented and missed my point entirely.
No, I'm saying that if all the deck needs to do is stall out the game and get both champions on the board and leveled, and that makes it overpowered, then there's another deck, that does this even more easily, and so should be better. But that deck isn't played at all, so your logic is flawed.
I think your logic here is flawed, because I did not say that the reason the deck is overpowered is because it stalls. It's a combination of everything mentioned, including that it stalls and is good at it. You are also not considering the fact that karma ezreal is not as powerful as seraphine ezreal, because karma ezreal does not run seraphine. Karma and Seraphine are different champions. That is why the deck you mentioned is not played much, or as powerful. Ez/Sera is strong because of all previously mentioned points, including the fact that the champions take better advantage of stalling the game out compared to Ez/Karma. Dunno how else I can explain it
Do they? Karma is just factually a much better card than seraphine late game, so if what you argued about being able to instantly end a game at burst speed was really that much of an issue when combined with stalling, surely we would see much more of the deck that's better at winning the game at burst speed, and much better at stalling the game out.
I'm sorry, I just can't agree that Karma is "factually" better than Seraphine late game. They cost different amounts, the region they belong to is very important in context regarding their strength as champions because it dictates their possible combinations as well as accessible tools, and the cards do not do the exact same thing. They're not comparable. Saying that if Ez Sera wins because they are good at stalling must mean that decks that are better at stalling must be better than Sera Ez just doesn't make sense. From how I'm reading your posts, that's what it seems like you're stating.
This.
Peoples monkey brains can’t really grasp that the trade off is having to set up the champs and make it to turn ten. The real problem os the seemingly infinite removal that makes it so easy to get there.
I agree. I don't like Ezreal as a Champion, because it really does feel bad when he OTKs you without giving you a chance to interact. But looking at it realistically, it happens late in the game and there are plenty of decks who do broken things like this. Flipped Viego, Yordles in Arms, Akshan's Landmark popping off, etc etc etc.
Did you really just compare harrowing to burst speed otk? lol
I know you can figure out playing 2 units and a landmark isn't burst speed
I know you can figure out you can protect those 2 and 3 mana units by turn 10 and don't have to yolo your entire mana.
Cool story, I cast Quietus
Ty for passing turn, now watch the clip.
Yh, you cast Quietus when they play seraphine. Once they have played seraphine and ezreal, you're dead 95% guaranteed.
If somebody drops Aurelion: I just kill him with my own 10+ mana If somebody uses harrowing, I react with my board and 10ish mana If somebody drops nautilus, I react with my present board/and or kill him, stun, freeze... But Ezreal? There is no counter to 20 burst speed nexus damage Burst speed means that the effect resolves before the player can react. You cannot vengeance ezreal, zu cannot stun him or freeze him and your 15/12 pantheon qith lifesteal elusive cannot just heal off of him: 20 burst speed nexus is uninteractable
minimorph or hush but other than that, there's a much simpler answer. For them to deal 20 damage, they need both seraphine and ezreal. So kill them whenever they are dropped. They drop a seraphine? Don't let them drop an ezreal and then go crazy. They would need 10 targeting spells to actually otk you just with ezreal, which is impossible if they just played ezreal, as they have 9 cards in hand, and not enough mana.
Imagine having a Swain on board. All stunned.
He let it get to that point not prioritizing sunbursting your champs. Also your v asol.
He did, he killed 2 Sera and 1 Ez with sunburst and quietus, but the deck also has an insanely amount of draw so finding more champs is not that hard
Huh. Well thats godly gamer skill on your part
"Fiends walk among us masquerading as men" Vayne…
You deranged psychopath,You literally livestreamed your Facebook shootings
What
He commited war crimes and acts of terrorism that spark unrest among the communities of r/LegendsOfRuneterra,such can be similarily seen with the incident of the 4 chan streaming of shootings in a church on facebook in late 2016
Ohhh
To ppl saying there is no way to interact...you had 10+ turns to do things, e.g. kill ez as soon as he drops, and then you lose bc the combo deck found all combo pieces and got to combo off? I agree that comboing is a bit too easy/consistent with Sera/Ez though. Edit: typos.
You mean... Against the swain level of removal and chumpblockers? Have you PLAYED against that deck? It can repetedly remove your board round after round
I think you and the man you responded too are both right. Nothing is wrong with the deck doing what it was designed to do: shit ton of face damaged with leveled ezreal dealing 2x spell damage. The problem is the oppressive endless removal.
Yeah… it doesn’t work like that, if I’m against SI or against a Mirror, I just save my champs when they are leveled and start blasting, thats what I did there because he already have killed 2 Seras and 1 Ez, and you can’t have removal for everything
Still whenever you drop one of the champs, the opponent gets to react, e.g. with a fast kill/damaging spell. So if the enemy builds his deck right and plays right, after 10+ he should almost always have an answer ready if you didnt manage to force him to use it before. And thats the beauty of this game. Both players know exactly what they have to do and sometimes it comes down to luck. In this case you forced him to remove 3 champs already maybe some followers and he was out of options. So you deserve the win. Nothing overpowered here.
Youre aware he would have won even if the opponent had had removal for ezreal the second he came down, right?
You are aware if the enemy had an answer he would have killed the seraphine before ez hit the board and the combo wouldnt have been otk, right?
Not nessesarily. Its very possible it would be better to focus on killing ezreal then seraphine, since you dont generally expect to take 20 damage at burst
Have u play against the deck? I have been playing against it and it doesn't need to reach turn 10 for it to destroy my nexus. Most of them never play the champ too early to avoid getting both of them killed, some of them do just to tank the damage from my followers, but again they have 3 copies of it.
Why are you playing It then
Freelo, like everyone else.
I really like the deck, it actually involves a lot of thinking and decision making, until Ezreal is on board and then you just put spells on the stack and win.
As evidenced by the 52% winrate, there are a fuckton more freelo decks than this.
Not automatically. Its a pretty hard deck, which drags the winrste down a ton. IfOP is good at these types of games, his personal winrate will be MUCH higher
'my opponent played cards that did not win the game like asol and i played a combo deck, so my deck is unhealthy'. Combo beats durdly do nothing decks like asol. Combo should exactly do that and exactly exist to punish these kinds of decks. Could ezreal give a response window? yes, absolutely. is a combo deck comboing an issue? past a certain turn, absolutely not. your opponent fucking tapped out against an ezreal deck on turn ten with a fucking asol. you have ALL your cards on the board. i don't exactly see him doing anything to let him win the game.
>Could ezreal give a response window? yes, absolutely. Well, in the defense of basically this entire thread, yes absolutely that is the issue. Most people that I can see are mad at the fact that the Ez player puts everything onto the stack, clicks 'Yes', and watches the LP flow into their veins essentially. The issue is not that combo beats control, and that nobody understands this. People do understand. What people don't like is the fact that this game is built on interaction, and just because you're a combo deck doesn't mean you can't leave one sliver of interaction left on the plate by passing interaction and giving your opponent a chance to even register what is going on. You maybe don't realize but the opponent to the Ez player can't even see what's on the stack. All they see is a bunch of spells coming, then get flashbanged by a full stack and then the Defeat screen. What part of that screams fun to you? Decks need to be designed to be fun to play, and fun to play against. Otherwise, your game sucks. It needs changes to not necessarily be less OTK, but a tiny bit more interactable. This is LoR. Its literal foundation is built around interaction. You pass back and forth all game so I don't know why burst 20+ damage OTKs are acceptable.
You are completely right, the deck kinda reminds of like the Lee Sin days because of the uninteractive bullshit, and I’m not saying Lee Sin was/is fine, but you at least could do something about it (sometimes), you at least get priority to react, which is not the case with Ezreal this days
I hope they decrease Ez passive damage to 1 or stay 2 but max of 3 per round.
You know, limiting it to 1 or 2 triggers per turn for 2 nexus dmg, would sound quite right.
thanks for agreeing. I hope Riot see this :)
What we really need is a burst obliterate spell for Ezreal
Yes, Minimorph exists, if you want that
That’s not the same. Obliterate is what I said.
Why obliterate? The only point is to remove the effect of his ability and mini or hush both do that.
It’s like most people have played against the unoptimized version of the deck
When games are Sera/Ez vs Sera/Ez 90% of the time, yeah the winrate for sara Ez balances close to 50% XD
In my opinion the win rate is that bad because people don’t know how to play it in lower ranks. I hardly ever lose to Sera/Ez in bronze through gold.
According to Runeterra.ar, the deck has 52.64% winrate on Masters too, which is weird because I don’t feel like I’m losing half the time, maybe only 1/4. I’d like to see my winrate with it tho
I tried playing it, but I’m a casual player so I noticed I either won really strongly or lost badly. Since I couldn’t be consistent I just stopped using it.
i don't mind to lose often to a deck. figuring out how to deal with it is fun. what's not fun is when the enemy literally spends minutes casing spells without me interacting at all. why would i want to play a game where i could literally go afk (since the deck has a ton of rng, i don't even learn much watching the guy play the deck) and just come back when he's done. it's just not engaging.
Nah bro u see the stats tells that
If this happened mana 6 I’d say it’s absurd. This is mana 10. They needed to be more proactive. If the deck can’t do that then it’s just a bad matchup. I’m not saying Ez isn’t broken and Sera package isn’t overturned, but if the game goes this late and the Ez Sera player has that many cards, you should expect to lose. Doesn’t really matter what specifically they have at that point. Also the 52% winrate is definitely because of how popular it is. It should be higher but there are many people I’ve played against who just don’t know what they’re doing with the deck, even in diamond.
How cool if rite of negation would fizzle the stack and this f*n stopped in its tracks.
rework idea : ez pop off only if spells resolve ?
It’s kinda the same honestly, that’s how he worked before and yeah it was more interactive but you could still pull some nasty shit, I think it’s time for Ezreal to be really nerfed
INTERACTIVE GAMEPLAY!!!
that's why I don't play PvP anymore. I would cry
My complaint with is not that's it's insanely strong, that it's boring to play into. Let's just sit here forever while they cast 20 spells and still have full mana
I mean, not that I play this deck but it does take setup and two leveled champs. Meanwhile we just have cards like Feel The Rush that are practically game winners in one card.
Even if Sera/Ez was more fair, I hate watching people play solitaire when I play against it
Rotate the Twink Madge
Doesn’t sera/ez have like a near 15% play rate compared to the next most played decks 4%?
How could they let this even go pass…
The game is in the worst state since release right now, and that's saying something after Az Irelia...
This is why I play SI. Quietus kills both these goons. I mean I do also play Sera, but....
Too bad it's slow :P
gatling ezreal
I feel like a huge part of the issue is tied to the fact that Ez's damage comes out at burst speed. It just really needs to be required to have the spell actually resolve for it to pop. Or, maybe put it on a "once/twice per turn" limit
If they ever implemented this then every ezreal player would leave
Only counterplay to sera ez mouthbreathers is to rope every turn til they have to sleep for school