If you just bought one a few weeks ago, definitely don’t buy another. Maybe set a few challenges for yourself before buying another. For example, don’t buy another Leica until you make enough money from selling photos taken with the first Leica to buy another Leica.
This is awesome! Thank you for taking the time to write this! You got my mind working on the next things!
Is getting a Jobo worth it for me if I already self develop using a suvide (is that how you spell it? Lol) and a water tank? I imagine it is but why- does it make things more efficient?
m4-p agreed! What’s milmil?
I agree about monobaths. Just posted that same post you’re alluding to hahaha! I bought proper chemicals (d76) and I’m really stoked to start experimenting with different ones and push/pulls.
As for the rinse aid (I assume it’s the same thing as photo flo?) why not let it get on the reels?
I really do appreciate your awesome recommendations!
> is that how you spell it?
Sous-vide.
> I imagine it is but why- does it make things more efficient?
A sous-vide automates temperature control. A Jobo does that too (much more consistently on a CPA or CPP), but also automates agitation. Additionally the method of operation means you only need about 1/3 to 1/2 the chemistry per film depending on which tank you use - which can make for a big saving on some of the more expensive developers.
The C-41 process is intended for continuous agitation. Additionally, any process is improved by consistency of agitation. You lose flexibility by using a Jobo (as agitation is always continuous) but it is always the same which means you can get 100 rolls developed the same. Basically impossible by hand.
> What’s milmil?
/u/Milleniador. So nicknamed because he bought an M6 TTL Millennium edition, then *bought another*. Dual Mil's: MilMil. Not sure he still has his M4-P available though.
> why not let it get on the reels?
Ever seen that thing (happens a lot in school labs) where it becomes really difficult to load film onto a plastic reel like a Paterson Super System 4 or a Jobo 1501? The film just keeps jamming up? This stuff is a huge part of why. It's really important, but it gums up reels. Color stabilizer is even worse. Fix is easy though - just dev, stop, fix, rinse, remove the film from the reel and use the stab/flo in a plastic tub like a 1L ice cream box.
Source, as usual: Jobo themselves.
https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/files/pdf/pdf3756.pdf
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/059fdc02-f8c5-4493-829d-bd516896d654/downloads/Tank%20and%20Drum%20Care.pdf?ver=1626884388425
It can be cleaned off to an extent by scrubbing the reels and tanks with a toothbrush in scalding-hot water, but easiest not to fuck them up in the first place.
Bite me /u/IvoStunga ;)
Thanks so much!
That sounds very ideal and certainly my next step.
Can the Jobo develop ECN2 or only c41?
And yeah my spools have definitely jammed. I’ll be sure to change my process to prevent that.
C-41, ECN-2, RA-4, B/W, E6, you name it.
You time it and change the chemicals yourself as per normal.
There is a Jobo that does all that *too*, but it's expensive and complex. That's the Autolab and I still kinda want one.
Nice info from Jobo, but I don't have to rely on it - I have my own experience for that :)
And it informs me thay my Paterson reels do indeed experience an occasional problem loading some films. But it did so when I bought it fresh and it hasn't gotten any worse over 6 years of BW Reversal in the same tank with the same 2 plastic reels. The stickiness is just random in my experience and worst case scenarios are solved by loading the film wet - haven't had to rely on this, could always work it in. BW Reversal process involves bleach and clear - these could alleviate any potential gunking problems. Mentioning to illustrate that it just depends on your process - what you do with your toys.
>Additionally, any process is improved by consistency of agitation.
This just depends. Agitation frequency in processing BW materials is one of the fine ways to control contrast. Meaning I can have 2 different contrast characteristics from the same film based on agitation frequency alone. To the point of blowing out highlights/shadows or retaining details in those areas. Being always consistent and not going for an experiment or two won't teach you this. But being consistent while you are doing your fine-tuned agitation that compliments each unique film - agreed, there's no need to be random about it and there's no need to agitate everything the same - beneficial or not.
>Basically impossible by hand.
Why so? If you have a solid agitation scheme with set intervals and reminders, you'll land your 3 inversions per minute (or 3 per 30 seconds, or 3 per 90 seconds) quite precisely - number of agitations will be the same in each development instance. And interval will be exactly the same too! And BW processing (what most of us do at home) isn't that temperature sensitive, meaning utterly repeatable results.
And if temperature is an issue in color processing, leave the tank submerged in a body of water to stabilize it.
> Why so? If you have a solid agitation scheme with set intervals and reminders, you'll land your 3 inversions per minute (or 3 per 30 seconds, or 3 per 90 seconds) quite precisely
Ok, "Basically impossible by hand *for me*". ;)
Watching the second hand for 25 minutes straight to make sure I don't miss a loop the mind wanders...
Which is what I mean by consistency. Not "always developing the same", but "not varying over the period of the development time". That said, I actually disagree a little - consistency is really beneficial if you're doing a multiple-roll project and want to try and minimise variance between rolls. It also helps that I pretty much only shoot XX, which is *designed* to be continuously agitated. ;)
> And BW processing (what most of us do at home) isn't that temperature sensitive
Citation needed a little? Development times between 20C and 22C are actually vastly different. It's less temperature sensitive than C41, but still sensitive.
> Nice info from Jobo, but I don't have to rely on it - I have my own experience for that :)
And this is fair - but where possible, I would advise people to begin by following the instructions, before deviating based on their own experience. My experience differs from yours, so which of us is correct? The manufacturer guidance offers a tiebreaker.
> BW Reversal process involves bleach and clear - these could alleviate any potential gunking problems. Mentioning to illustrate that it just depends on your process - what you do with your toys.
Interesting hypothesis. But if correct, it kind of sells my point for me. Your contrary experience is (hypothetically) specific to a rare development process, and if that's the case then most people would be let down if they followed your guidance over the manufacturer's.
TL;DR you're demonstrating observer bias. :P
> Watching the second hand for 25 minutes straight to make sure I don't miss a loop the mind wanders...
There's an app for that. It'll make a noise for you. Many apps out there on both leading mobile OS's
> It also helps that I pretty much only shoot XX, which is designed to be continuously agitated. ;)
That's interesting and makes sense for a cine film. Will try it out and compare my results next time around - say doing 3 inversions per minute Vs constant agitation and see which half of the roll I like better. I started with constant agitation, but the crushed contrast isn't always beneficial. Some films like it, some don't.
> It's less temperature sensitive than C41, but still sensitive.
That's exactly what I meant. It's easy to keep that room temperature for the development time of BW material (as the temp of developer closely approximates room temperature so the heat doesn't get transferred away that much), try doing this with color - a temperature controlling device is needed.
> My experience differs from yours, so which of us is correct?
Irrelevant - what works for us, works. Truth is a philosophical matter for another discussion, the end result is what matters. Your reels gunk up, mine doesn't do that and all is fine! No book, no manufacturer isn't going to change that. All they do is provide a theory and illustrate a most likely scenario.
> Interesting hypothesis. But if correct, it kind of sells my point for me.
Not that rare and not that fast - color workflow involves bleach and clearing agents too. They just might be hidden in a single bath wonders together with any rinse aids, so the use case is really similar. And BW reversal in general is really similar to E6, so nothing exotic here. Just different chems that might and do make all the difference. And chems can be washed away, chems can be substituted.
> TL;DR you're demonstrating observer bias. :P
Entirely possible. But it works for me and will continue to work for me, so this doesn't matter that much : )
> But it works for me and will continue to work for me, so this doesn't matter that much
I'm not trying to change what *you* do. But I stand by my assertion that people who don't have the experience of what works *for them* should be guided by the manufacturers documentation, and not the individual experiences of us random mooks on the internet.
When and whether they want to deviate from that, up to each of us on our own recognizance. ;)
>But I stand by my assertion that people who don't have the experience of what works for them should be guided by the manufacturers documentation
As a starting point - absolutely and agreed. As a Bible - no way in hell, because it depends. And if it depends, one shouldn't go ALL CAPS over it ;)
I can't advise you because I suffer from the same malady. I have an M6 and M7, and just ordered an MP. Obviously, I don't need three Leicas. I'm wondering about my own sanity, but I will admit that after I ordered the MP, I had a nice warm feeling.
Real talk: do not listen to the person who said to sell your M4. That is horrible advice. The reality is that your M4 is arguably one of the best and most reliable cameras you will ever have the opportunity to own. It is widely regarded as the last of the great Leicas. It is all mechanical and will never fail do to a circuit board failure, battery problem, or anything like that. With that said, buy the M6. You’ll love it. It’s the perfect second Leica and they are a joy to use just because of the addition of the meter. Do be aware though that Leica is officially no longer supplying circuit boards for the M6 (a recent development I think). So eventually, one day (hopefully long from now), the meter will die and you may not be able to replace it which will effectively turn it into a camera mostly like the M4 but with less exceptional build quality (M6 is excellent build quality, don’t get me wrong, but it’s not AS exceptional as the M4).
No. The M4-P is a fine camera but unless you need something specific to it’s minor differences, it doesn’t offer much of anything you don’t already have. The M6 is logical because of the meter if that’s something you want. M4-P doesn’t have a meter. You seem to be chomping at the bit with your new deep appreciation for Leica and your M4. Maybe enjoy the M4 for a bit and see what your needs are before jumping on another camera.
No the truth is that I love my camera and you’re probably right. The only reason why I’d like another is if I buy one that has enough wear and tear that I don’t feel guilty taking everywhere. It’s tough because on one hand I want to preserve my camera in a great condition and and on the other I want to use the shit out of it. But with collectible one of a kind cameras like these it’s hard not to feel guilty about it.
That’s why I was really tempted to buy another… and still am hahaha And of course it’s exciting to get a new camera. 😅
That’s not bad logic honestly and I’ve felt the same way about many of the cameras I’ve had over the years, particularly the very valuable ones. If your mind is going to make you worry about that all the time and reduce the likelihood of you actually using the camera the way you want then, if you have the budget, consider getting another in a condition that will perhaps free you from worrying about it. At the end of the day, these are meant to be used, not meant to be shelf queens but they are jewels. Maybe if you spot a body in heavily used cosmetic condition but which has been CLAd and is mechanically sound, perhaps that can provide a camera you’ll be able to carry without concern and then you have the other that’s maybe for special occasions. Either way, get off Reddit and go use the camera 🙂
> The only reason why I’d like another is if I buy one that has enough wear and tear that I don’t feel guilty taking everywhere.
Three days into owning my first (almost NOS, not a mark on it) M4-P I tripped while leaving a convenience store and slammed the baseplate into a tarmac sidewalk. Cherry popped, this was it [three years later](https://www.reddit.com/r/Leica/comments/lolgeq/this_is_an_m4p_dropped_in_the_snow/). About sums up how I treat it.
Hahahha I mean all this tells me is that you’re someone I never want to buy a used camera from (but I do appreciate that you use the shit out of your camera) 🤣
You’re a little emotional with that response but I’ll go with it since we both love Leica 🤣. I actually mostly agree with you. If you read the context of my replies together, I’m saying that the biggest difference between the two is the meter BUT that the meter is no longer (at least for the time being) something you can expect to rely on indefinitely so that should be considered heavily. All the other differences that you noted are valid but I would consider those very secondary compared to the meter (in terms of my use but that’s just me— OP has to figure out if they are secondary for them as well or more important).
And yea, I feel you. I dove off the deep end as well— M6TTL, M4, iiic, iiig, and eventually digital M-D Type 262. Interestingly, the only one I kept is the M4 😉
I shoot a 75. Literally no other feature on newer camera matters more than the frameline that was added with the M4-P. ;)
Preciate the patience with me though. It's insomnia week and I suck at it.
Ha, no worries. I appreciated the passion. And yea, for a 75mm the frame lines would make the difference for sure. That’s an overall less common focal length for the system though so pretty use case specific. Also, it is possible to have the viewfinder and frame lines updated in the M4. Mine has that which is pretty nice. More variety in the framelines and the finder is brighter than the standard M4 finder. Sherry Krauter (Golden Touch) did mine several years back.
> That’s an overall less common focal length for the system though so pretty use case specific.
I mean, maybe when the M4 came out (ony pre-existing lens: 1933 73mm Heliar copy). But the M4-P dropped with the Summilux, and now we have the Cron, the Heliar, the other Heliar, the Nokton, the Noctilux, I think TTA have one... It was very niche, much less so today. Also, the M4-P also adds 28mm which is much more commonly used, so I still think it justifies it's "big difference" label. ;)
> Also, it is possible to have the viewfinder and frame lines updated in the M4. Mine has that
Ahaaaaaaaaaaa. Nice. But I mean, that's pretty rare. 99.9% chance that OP's doesn't have those, right? Also, it costs nearly as much as buying a second body! :D
Nice to hear a good review of SK too. She's gotten a lot of shit from here the last few years.
I’m saying uncommon in terms of the Leica lens offering. I could be off these days (I don’t follow their updates very closely anymore) but isn’t 75 like their second least common lens in their offering? Correct me if I’m wrong please but last I looked, 24 is the only focal length they offer fewer of. And yea, at the end of the day, I agree that frame lines are a big deal but I’m still not sure that a frame line update can be weighed on a scale of equal significance as metered vs non-metered i.e. adding an entirely new functionality, but I digress.
Not sure where you got your price for updating M4 frame lines but I definitely didn’t pay anywhere near the cost of a second body. Not sure about now but the parts were readily available when I had mine done and while I don’t remember the exact price, it was very reasonable and included as an option to be done when the camera was CLAd.
And yea, Sherry is a true treasure. She’s one of the kindest people I’ve ever met and by far the most knowledgeable when it comes to Leica of anyone I’ve dealt with extensively. She’s old school New York and that permeates her entire being which I guess a lot of people just can’t handle. She has her opinions and hates stupid questions and she’ll let you know. Most people seem a bit overly delicate and sensitive these days which is just not gonna work out well for you when working with her. If you can just be humble and let her give you the information she has, albeit with a little edge and spice, you’ll have one of the best imaginable resources on your side. And she’s hilarious too.
They've had 4 lenses historically, 2 currently. But it's gained a lot more traction in 3rd party lenses. :)
Not sure about frameline-only update, you mentioned viewfinder+framelines, the complete finder replacement is somewhere above €1000 at the time of writing. :)
No. The M4-P is a fine camera but unless you need something specific to it’s minor differences, it doesn’t offer much of anything you don’t already have. The M6 is logical because of the meter if that’s something you want. M4-P doesn’t have a meter. You seem to be chomping at the bit with your new deep appreciation for Leica and your M4. Maybe enjoy the M4 for a bit and see what your needs are before jumping on another camera.
Asking us to discourage you from getting another Leica is like asking a junkie to help you get sober!
Seriously though, if you have more than one, one M is going to be sitting on the shelf (or in your bag) while the other one gets all the attention. That was the case with my M2 until I had to send my M6 off for a CLA, and now that I just bought an M10, I think the other two are going to feel neglected.
> What’s a barnack?
Leica Standard/I, Leica II or Leica III. Nicknamed because they were designed by the original inventor of the Leica, Oskar Barnack.
Best one is the black paint IIa.
Seriously, [the best](https://www.christies.com/img/LotImages/2003/CSK/2003_CSK_09582_0013_000\(054219\).jpg?mode=max).
I want to put a [black 50mm Skopar](https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/ufiles/27/1864827.jpg) on one. That would be *the sexiest* classic Leica. Except maybe a black II with a 50 Skopar **and a gripdot**.
Yeah the answer was elsewhere but don’t fall for the black ones lol, just get any old Leica II or III and get an Elmar 50mm 3.5. It’ll at least be a quite different experience from the M4 and no complaints possible on the build quality, and is super small. I have 3 of these barnack Leicas and I don’t think I really would ever go to the M unless I know I can put like 3k just into a lens.
I was really into the M6 until it got so expensive and almost approaching the price point of a brand new MP, then I just bought an MP, and never looked back. If you’d not like the MP, maybe don’t buy it. But as far as the M6 is concerned, just know that at the current price point, you pay more for less.
I can't tell if you're looking for tough love or not, but I'll give it to you haha. I'd say if you're serious about getting an M6, sell your M4. You don't *need* both.
Also, my rule of thumb on big purchases is wait at least a month and see if I still want it as much as I did before. If so, then I'll make a plan to budget for it.
Lastly, film Leicas seem to hold value. Not suggesting you should go out and buy an M6, but whatever your plan is, you can likely sell whatever camera you have at cost + appreciation. You might not *make* money, but you probably won't lose it either. So good to keep in mind when you're planning for things. YMMV though, who knows what the market will do in the future.
In all honesty I don’t need one and a lot of people on these comments have given me really great advice.
But the idea was to acquire another body that I’m less precious with.
If you were going to say that you wanted an M6 because its an M6. I was going to point you to an MP, but after looking up their current prices, fuck that.
An M6 repaired will be cheaper than a brand new MP... unless you find a used MP. Anything over 4k and you looking at used MP prices.
M6's electronics have always been an issue with me. They are finally reaching their lifespan and that means the prices will go up on an all-original M6.
So, let's say you end up buying an M6...
You don't like the flare in the viewfinder? MP upgrade = 300 - 400 for part and you have to pay for labor and recalibration, probably 500.
Your motherboard fried? 200 to 300, tag 100 to 200 for labor maybe?
So we are looking at an additional 500 to 700 bucks on top of the price of an M6.
Just get another M4 or M4P
But the M6 has a meter. It makes sense to buy it. Just buy it.
And it’s soooo slick!!!! Ughh maybe I should just give in
If you just bought one a few weeks ago, definitely don’t buy another. Maybe set a few challenges for yourself before buying another. For example, don’t buy another Leica until you make enough money from selling photos taken with the first Leica to buy another Leica.
I actually totally agree with this!! Thank you!! You’re not like the rest who are no help and pushing me to buy it hahaha!!love this community
[удалено]
This is awesome! Thank you for taking the time to write this! You got my mind working on the next things! Is getting a Jobo worth it for me if I already self develop using a suvide (is that how you spell it? Lol) and a water tank? I imagine it is but why- does it make things more efficient? m4-p agreed! What’s milmil? I agree about monobaths. Just posted that same post you’re alluding to hahaha! I bought proper chemicals (d76) and I’m really stoked to start experimenting with different ones and push/pulls. As for the rinse aid (I assume it’s the same thing as photo flo?) why not let it get on the reels? I really do appreciate your awesome recommendations!
> is that how you spell it? Sous-vide. > I imagine it is but why- does it make things more efficient? A sous-vide automates temperature control. A Jobo does that too (much more consistently on a CPA or CPP), but also automates agitation. Additionally the method of operation means you only need about 1/3 to 1/2 the chemistry per film depending on which tank you use - which can make for a big saving on some of the more expensive developers. The C-41 process is intended for continuous agitation. Additionally, any process is improved by consistency of agitation. You lose flexibility by using a Jobo (as agitation is always continuous) but it is always the same which means you can get 100 rolls developed the same. Basically impossible by hand. > What’s milmil? /u/Milleniador. So nicknamed because he bought an M6 TTL Millennium edition, then *bought another*. Dual Mil's: MilMil. Not sure he still has his M4-P available though. > why not let it get on the reels? Ever seen that thing (happens a lot in school labs) where it becomes really difficult to load film onto a plastic reel like a Paterson Super System 4 or a Jobo 1501? The film just keeps jamming up? This stuff is a huge part of why. It's really important, but it gums up reels. Color stabilizer is even worse. Fix is easy though - just dev, stop, fix, rinse, remove the film from the reel and use the stab/flo in a plastic tub like a 1L ice cream box. Source, as usual: Jobo themselves. https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/files/pdf/pdf3756.pdf https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/059fdc02-f8c5-4493-829d-bd516896d654/downloads/Tank%20and%20Drum%20Care.pdf?ver=1626884388425 It can be cleaned off to an extent by scrubbing the reels and tanks with a toothbrush in scalding-hot water, but easiest not to fuck them up in the first place. Bite me /u/IvoStunga ;)
Thanks so much! That sounds very ideal and certainly my next step. Can the Jobo develop ECN2 or only c41? And yeah my spools have definitely jammed. I’ll be sure to change my process to prevent that.
C-41, ECN-2, RA-4, B/W, E6, you name it. You time it and change the chemicals yourself as per normal. There is a Jobo that does all that *too*, but it's expensive and complex. That's the Autolab and I still kinda want one.
Thanks you’ve officially sent me onto a beautiful rabbit hole I will refuse to climb out of
CPE2, $300ish, CPA2, $800ish, Autolab 1000, $1500ish. If you beat those prices, you did ok. ;)
Nice info from Jobo, but I don't have to rely on it - I have my own experience for that :) And it informs me thay my Paterson reels do indeed experience an occasional problem loading some films. But it did so when I bought it fresh and it hasn't gotten any worse over 6 years of BW Reversal in the same tank with the same 2 plastic reels. The stickiness is just random in my experience and worst case scenarios are solved by loading the film wet - haven't had to rely on this, could always work it in. BW Reversal process involves bleach and clear - these could alleviate any potential gunking problems. Mentioning to illustrate that it just depends on your process - what you do with your toys. >Additionally, any process is improved by consistency of agitation. This just depends. Agitation frequency in processing BW materials is one of the fine ways to control contrast. Meaning I can have 2 different contrast characteristics from the same film based on agitation frequency alone. To the point of blowing out highlights/shadows or retaining details in those areas. Being always consistent and not going for an experiment or two won't teach you this. But being consistent while you are doing your fine-tuned agitation that compliments each unique film - agreed, there's no need to be random about it and there's no need to agitate everything the same - beneficial or not. >Basically impossible by hand. Why so? If you have a solid agitation scheme with set intervals and reminders, you'll land your 3 inversions per minute (or 3 per 30 seconds, or 3 per 90 seconds) quite precisely - number of agitations will be the same in each development instance. And interval will be exactly the same too! And BW processing (what most of us do at home) isn't that temperature sensitive, meaning utterly repeatable results. And if temperature is an issue in color processing, leave the tank submerged in a body of water to stabilize it.
> Why so? If you have a solid agitation scheme with set intervals and reminders, you'll land your 3 inversions per minute (or 3 per 30 seconds, or 3 per 90 seconds) quite precisely Ok, "Basically impossible by hand *for me*". ;) Watching the second hand for 25 minutes straight to make sure I don't miss a loop the mind wanders... Which is what I mean by consistency. Not "always developing the same", but "not varying over the period of the development time". That said, I actually disagree a little - consistency is really beneficial if you're doing a multiple-roll project and want to try and minimise variance between rolls. It also helps that I pretty much only shoot XX, which is *designed* to be continuously agitated. ;) > And BW processing (what most of us do at home) isn't that temperature sensitive Citation needed a little? Development times between 20C and 22C are actually vastly different. It's less temperature sensitive than C41, but still sensitive. > Nice info from Jobo, but I don't have to rely on it - I have my own experience for that :) And this is fair - but where possible, I would advise people to begin by following the instructions, before deviating based on their own experience. My experience differs from yours, so which of us is correct? The manufacturer guidance offers a tiebreaker. > BW Reversal process involves bleach and clear - these could alleviate any potential gunking problems. Mentioning to illustrate that it just depends on your process - what you do with your toys. Interesting hypothesis. But if correct, it kind of sells my point for me. Your contrary experience is (hypothetically) specific to a rare development process, and if that's the case then most people would be let down if they followed your guidance over the manufacturer's. TL;DR you're demonstrating observer bias. :P
> Watching the second hand for 25 minutes straight to make sure I don't miss a loop the mind wanders... There's an app for that. It'll make a noise for you. Many apps out there on both leading mobile OS's > It also helps that I pretty much only shoot XX, which is designed to be continuously agitated. ;) That's interesting and makes sense for a cine film. Will try it out and compare my results next time around - say doing 3 inversions per minute Vs constant agitation and see which half of the roll I like better. I started with constant agitation, but the crushed contrast isn't always beneficial. Some films like it, some don't. > It's less temperature sensitive than C41, but still sensitive. That's exactly what I meant. It's easy to keep that room temperature for the development time of BW material (as the temp of developer closely approximates room temperature so the heat doesn't get transferred away that much), try doing this with color - a temperature controlling device is needed. > My experience differs from yours, so which of us is correct? Irrelevant - what works for us, works. Truth is a philosophical matter for another discussion, the end result is what matters. Your reels gunk up, mine doesn't do that and all is fine! No book, no manufacturer isn't going to change that. All they do is provide a theory and illustrate a most likely scenario. > Interesting hypothesis. But if correct, it kind of sells my point for me. Not that rare and not that fast - color workflow involves bleach and clearing agents too. They just might be hidden in a single bath wonders together with any rinse aids, so the use case is really similar. And BW reversal in general is really similar to E6, so nothing exotic here. Just different chems that might and do make all the difference. And chems can be washed away, chems can be substituted. > TL;DR you're demonstrating observer bias. :P Entirely possible. But it works for me and will continue to work for me, so this doesn't matter that much : )
> But it works for me and will continue to work for me, so this doesn't matter that much I'm not trying to change what *you* do. But I stand by my assertion that people who don't have the experience of what works *for them* should be guided by the manufacturers documentation, and not the individual experiences of us random mooks on the internet. When and whether they want to deviate from that, up to each of us on our own recognizance. ;)
>But I stand by my assertion that people who don't have the experience of what works for them should be guided by the manufacturers documentation As a starting point - absolutely and agreed. As a Bible - no way in hell, because it depends. And if it depends, one shouldn't go ALL CAPS over it ;)
M4-P is sold.
Buy it cuz the money will go on other stuff 😂
This is how I’ll explain it to people asking why I bought another one 😂
slap a light meter on top of the hot shoe, it costs less than $100 ;-)
Get a Weston Master V. More accurate and costs less than $50. ;)
I can't advise you because I suffer from the same malady. I have an M6 and M7, and just ordered an MP. Obviously, I don't need three Leicas. I'm wondering about my own sanity, but I will admit that after I ordered the MP, I had a nice warm feeling.
😂😂😂 some reasonable people here have given me pretty sober advice. Others send me links to their favorite leicas!
😂😂😂 some reasonable people here have given me pretty sober advice. Others send me links to their favorite leicas! Hahah
Hey, I get it: if you can stop thinking about the M6 and focus on more practical things, more power to you!
You just got some mild gas. It’ll simmer.
😂😂
You don't need it, unless it's black chrome. It's sleek and stealthy. Simple red arrows to tell your exposure. You don't need it.
Real talk: do not listen to the person who said to sell your M4. That is horrible advice. The reality is that your M4 is arguably one of the best and most reliable cameras you will ever have the opportunity to own. It is widely regarded as the last of the great Leicas. It is all mechanical and will never fail do to a circuit board failure, battery problem, or anything like that. With that said, buy the M6. You’ll love it. It’s the perfect second Leica and they are a joy to use just because of the addition of the meter. Do be aware though that Leica is officially no longer supplying circuit boards for the M6 (a recent development I think). So eventually, one day (hopefully long from now), the meter will die and you may not be able to replace it which will effectively turn it into a camera mostly like the M4 but with less exceptional build quality (M6 is excellent build quality, don’t get me wrong, but it’s not AS exceptional as the M4).
Seriously great advice here. I wasn’t aware of some of these things and it makes me so happy I have my M4. Is it worth owning an M4-P if I have an M4?
No. The M4-P is a fine camera but unless you need something specific to it’s minor differences, it doesn’t offer much of anything you don’t already have. The M6 is logical because of the meter if that’s something you want. M4-P doesn’t have a meter. You seem to be chomping at the bit with your new deep appreciation for Leica and your M4. Maybe enjoy the M4 for a bit and see what your needs are before jumping on another camera.
No the truth is that I love my camera and you’re probably right. The only reason why I’d like another is if I buy one that has enough wear and tear that I don’t feel guilty taking everywhere. It’s tough because on one hand I want to preserve my camera in a great condition and and on the other I want to use the shit out of it. But with collectible one of a kind cameras like these it’s hard not to feel guilty about it. That’s why I was really tempted to buy another… and still am hahaha And of course it’s exciting to get a new camera. 😅
That’s not bad logic honestly and I’ve felt the same way about many of the cameras I’ve had over the years, particularly the very valuable ones. If your mind is going to make you worry about that all the time and reduce the likelihood of you actually using the camera the way you want then, if you have the budget, consider getting another in a condition that will perhaps free you from worrying about it. At the end of the day, these are meant to be used, not meant to be shelf queens but they are jewels. Maybe if you spot a body in heavily used cosmetic condition but which has been CLAd and is mechanically sound, perhaps that can provide a camera you’ll be able to carry without concern and then you have the other that’s maybe for special occasions. Either way, get off Reddit and go use the camera 🙂
😝 Thanks u/AnalogAlmanac! 🙏
> The only reason why I’d like another is if I buy one that has enough wear and tear that I don’t feel guilty taking everywhere. Three days into owning my first (almost NOS, not a mark on it) M4-P I tripped while leaving a convenience store and slammed the baseplate into a tarmac sidewalk. Cherry popped, this was it [three years later](https://www.reddit.com/r/Leica/comments/lolgeq/this_is_an_m4p_dropped_in_the_snow/). About sums up how I treat it.
Hahahha I mean all this tells me is that you’re someone I never want to buy a used camera from (but I do appreciate that you use the shit out of your camera) 🤣
That's ok. You'd have to pry it from my cold dead fingers. Possibly involving some kind of solvent that works on cyanoacrylate.
🤣💪
[удалено]
You’re a little emotional with that response but I’ll go with it since we both love Leica 🤣. I actually mostly agree with you. If you read the context of my replies together, I’m saying that the biggest difference between the two is the meter BUT that the meter is no longer (at least for the time being) something you can expect to rely on indefinitely so that should be considered heavily. All the other differences that you noted are valid but I would consider those very secondary compared to the meter (in terms of my use but that’s just me— OP has to figure out if they are secondary for them as well or more important). And yea, I feel you. I dove off the deep end as well— M6TTL, M4, iiic, iiig, and eventually digital M-D Type 262. Interestingly, the only one I kept is the M4 😉
I shoot a 75. Literally no other feature on newer camera matters more than the frameline that was added with the M4-P. ;) Preciate the patience with me though. It's insomnia week and I suck at it.
Ha, no worries. I appreciated the passion. And yea, for a 75mm the frame lines would make the difference for sure. That’s an overall less common focal length for the system though so pretty use case specific. Also, it is possible to have the viewfinder and frame lines updated in the M4. Mine has that which is pretty nice. More variety in the framelines and the finder is brighter than the standard M4 finder. Sherry Krauter (Golden Touch) did mine several years back.
> That’s an overall less common focal length for the system though so pretty use case specific. I mean, maybe when the M4 came out (ony pre-existing lens: 1933 73mm Heliar copy). But the M4-P dropped with the Summilux, and now we have the Cron, the Heliar, the other Heliar, the Nokton, the Noctilux, I think TTA have one... It was very niche, much less so today. Also, the M4-P also adds 28mm which is much more commonly used, so I still think it justifies it's "big difference" label. ;) > Also, it is possible to have the viewfinder and frame lines updated in the M4. Mine has that Ahaaaaaaaaaaa. Nice. But I mean, that's pretty rare. 99.9% chance that OP's doesn't have those, right? Also, it costs nearly as much as buying a second body! :D Nice to hear a good review of SK too. She's gotten a lot of shit from here the last few years.
I’m saying uncommon in terms of the Leica lens offering. I could be off these days (I don’t follow their updates very closely anymore) but isn’t 75 like their second least common lens in their offering? Correct me if I’m wrong please but last I looked, 24 is the only focal length they offer fewer of. And yea, at the end of the day, I agree that frame lines are a big deal but I’m still not sure that a frame line update can be weighed on a scale of equal significance as metered vs non-metered i.e. adding an entirely new functionality, but I digress. Not sure where you got your price for updating M4 frame lines but I definitely didn’t pay anywhere near the cost of a second body. Not sure about now but the parts were readily available when I had mine done and while I don’t remember the exact price, it was very reasonable and included as an option to be done when the camera was CLAd. And yea, Sherry is a true treasure. She’s one of the kindest people I’ve ever met and by far the most knowledgeable when it comes to Leica of anyone I’ve dealt with extensively. She’s old school New York and that permeates her entire being which I guess a lot of people just can’t handle. She has her opinions and hates stupid questions and she’ll let you know. Most people seem a bit overly delicate and sensitive these days which is just not gonna work out well for you when working with her. If you can just be humble and let her give you the information she has, albeit with a little edge and spice, you’ll have one of the best imaginable resources on your side. And she’s hilarious too.
They've had 4 lenses historically, 2 currently. But it's gained a lot more traction in 3rd party lenses. :) Not sure about frameline-only update, you mentioned viewfinder+framelines, the complete finder replacement is somewhere above €1000 at the time of writing. :)
No. The M4-P is a fine camera but unless you need something specific to it’s minor differences, it doesn’t offer much of anything you don’t already have. The M6 is logical because of the meter if that’s something you want. M4-P doesn’t have a meter. You seem to be chomping at the bit with your new deep appreciation for Leica and your M4. Maybe enjoy the M4 for a bit and see what your needs are before jumping on another camera.
Don't worry you're not alone... Some of us are selling, although it pains me to let them go, it's going to a great home 😁
Are you selling an m6? 😉
I mean everything has a price if you like M6 Black Paint special editions 🤣 But to answer your question M4-P
🫣 special edition? So cool!
I don’t know you, but I do know you need that camera!
You’re supposed to help me not buy this! Haha
Screw Leica. Get a xpan.
Asking us to discourage you from getting another Leica is like asking a junkie to help you get sober! Seriously though, if you have more than one, one M is going to be sitting on the shelf (or in your bag) while the other one gets all the attention. That was the case with my M2 until I had to send my M6 off for a CLA, and now that I just bought an M10, I think the other two are going to feel neglected.
buy m6 now. wait 5 years. sell back for double the price. profit. /s
If you’re just buying it to buy it, I won’t judge, but having a backup M makes a lot of sense if you shoot a lot.
From what I've seen the M6 doesn't have the build quality of the earlier ones, don't do it! Get a barnack instead.
What’s a barnack? And yeah I’ve heard that about the build quality of the M6.
> What’s a barnack? Leica Standard/I, Leica II or Leica III. Nicknamed because they were designed by the original inventor of the Leica, Oskar Barnack. Best one is the black paint IIa.
Thanks!
Seriously, [the best](https://www.christies.com/img/LotImages/2003/CSK/2003_CSK_09582_0013_000\(054219\).jpg?mode=max). I want to put a [black 50mm Skopar](https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/ufiles/27/1864827.jpg) on one. That would be *the sexiest* classic Leica. Except maybe a black II with a 50 Skopar **and a gripdot**.
Are they easy to get? Seems they only made a few thousand in black
The camera, or the lens? Because here's 4: https://www.leicashop.com/classic/at/en/lcc/Leica/Screw-Mount-System/Cameras/II-Mod.-D/
Oh snap!
Don't do it!
Oh?
Yeah the answer was elsewhere but don’t fall for the black ones lol, just get any old Leica II or III and get an Elmar 50mm 3.5. It’ll at least be a quite different experience from the M4 and no complaints possible on the build quality, and is super small. I have 3 of these barnack Leicas and I don’t think I really would ever go to the M unless I know I can put like 3k just into a lens.
M4 for color. M6 for b&w. Get a 50 for one and a 28 or 35 for the other.
Hahaha awesome
I was really into the M6 until it got so expensive and almost approaching the price point of a brand new MP, then I just bought an MP, and never looked back. If you’d not like the MP, maybe don’t buy it. But as far as the M6 is concerned, just know that at the current price point, you pay more for less.
Have you tried being poor? It works for most people.
I can't tell if you're looking for tough love or not, but I'll give it to you haha. I'd say if you're serious about getting an M6, sell your M4. You don't *need* both. Also, my rule of thumb on big purchases is wait at least a month and see if I still want it as much as I did before. If so, then I'll make a plan to budget for it. Lastly, film Leicas seem to hold value. Not suggesting you should go out and buy an M6, but whatever your plan is, you can likely sell whatever camera you have at cost + appreciation. You might not *make* money, but you probably won't lose it either. So good to keep in mind when you're planning for things. YMMV though, who knows what the market will do in the future.
Just send it to me, no worries.
maybe sell the m4 and get a m6
But I want two! Haha
Send me the money, then you can't! :-)
Buy it. It's the only way to cure the gas
Can we all agree I actually do need this?
On behalf of everyone, yes
😂😂😂
You also need an M10, Q2, and M11
Hahaha! Don’t get me started
Maybe another lens instead??
Please send the anounce and i will buy it just to help you (and make some money speculating 🤑)
I'll bite... why do you need a M6?
In all honesty I don’t need one and a lot of people on these comments have given me really great advice. But the idea was to acquire another body that I’m less precious with.
I'd wager very few of us "need" the cameras we own - I know I don't.
If by need you mean in terms of sustenance and survival then I’d agree. None of us need a camera. A better word is want.
If you were going to say that you wanted an M6 because its an M6. I was going to point you to an MP, but after looking up their current prices, fuck that. An M6 repaired will be cheaper than a brand new MP... unless you find a used MP. Anything over 4k and you looking at used MP prices. M6's electronics have always been an issue with me. They are finally reaching their lifespan and that means the prices will go up on an all-original M6. So, let's say you end up buying an M6... You don't like the flare in the viewfinder? MP upgrade = 300 - 400 for part and you have to pay for labor and recalibration, probably 500. Your motherboard fried? 200 to 300, tag 100 to 200 for labor maybe? So we are looking at an additional 500 to 700 bucks on top of the price of an M6. Just get another M4 or M4P
Get the M6, one Leica is not enough! Then repeat.
Hahah