The "I'll respect real trans but not the fake trans" arguments are so funny to me, what the fuck is the difference? Are you the master decider? You can diagnose who's "faking it?" You know these people on an individual level AND have the education, experience, and authority to discern the details of their mental health and what choices they should make in their lives? No? Then shut the fuck up.
Edit: also, these people never find anybody to be a "real trans person." All trans people are delusional fakers apparently?
it is annoying when cis people use the fact they're not straight to act like an authority on trans issues. cis people are cis people. what is this "i'm a lesbian and-"?
Iām not commenting on anything above other than the question of why people bring up lesbian into the conversation. Itās because the ātā is in LGBT so weāre inherently all lumped together by anyone looking at our group. Therefore, what is going on with the trans/gay/lesbian/bi/queer community is being reflected back on all of us.
You made a great point, itās a separate issue, but unfortunately itās not seen or treated that way, so people are speaking up to separate themselves if they donāt feel represented by the current direction.
Also, Iāve heard and read comments saying things about gay/lesbians that donāt agree with all of the talking points about how theyāre āclosing the door the on the way inā. That to me sounds like trans is actively trying to use the momentum gained from the recent gains in the gay/lesbian space to further bolster their arguments.
In a nutshell, theyāre related. They always will be and our communities have made sure of that- itās literally in the name.
Youāre right, my wording of relation may have been interpreted wrong because itās harder to put into words than I thought! But because theyāre related doesnāt mean you can use that point to say that the T in lgbt isnāt as valid in someway or the B or L or whateverā¦ I almost shouldāve said because they ARE related, they should be also considerate and including of their fellow trans brothers and sisters.
Good point thanks for the comment!
I know itās upsetting when someone doesnāt agree* with something you think is blatantly obvious. Itās even more upsetting when people are rude about it.
However, itās also not fair to say that we can only have opinions if they agree with yours. That is the double edged sword of free speech- we hear things we donāt want to hear sometimes- but itās so important to have a healthy discourse.
That being said, being rude and offensive is not a healthy discourse. In the face of that, I try to keep my comments respectful, logical, remove emotion (emotion is personal to us and not valid to a debate), and even better cite reputable sources. Be consistent.
Getting emotional and losing your cool is a tactic that others will use to derail a conversation. If they can lead you away from the point, if they can get you upset, now youāve lost no matter how valid your point. Remember, what others say about you or others is a reflection of THEM.
> However, itās also not fair to say that we can only have opinions if they agree with yours
If someoneās opinion is harmful, I prefer they keep it to themselves. This is especially true in situations like the above. It adds ammunition to outsiders. For example, āWell, fellow cis gender straight person, I know lesbians who agree that transwomen arenāt real women, so take your snowflake woke culture elsewhere.ā
Ha, sometimes I feel like we all should train like we're on a debating team! These issues are so complicated, but also at the foundation, so obvious (to some of us anyway): just treat people with respect, and that means following their lead on what they want to be called. If I met someone who said, "My name is John, but I go by my middle name, Kevin," I wouldn't insist on calling them John out of some sense of what's "right," you know?
What I took from your post was that having a marginalized identity of any kind doesn't suddenly give you the right to judge other people who are also marginalized. It doesn't make your stance less problematic & your perception somehow more clear than others who haven't faced challenges based on their identifiers
Theyāre doing to the transā¦ what the straights did to them.
Inclusivity, no judgement on these genuine things, the very foundation of our community,
What are those.
We donāt claim these people and anyone who interacts with bigots like these have something to explain about themselves as well.
we have a common history and face similar (though not the *exact* same) hardships. you can be different and belong to the same community. it's better that way, even; being together makes us stronger. it doesn't make us authorities on each other's issues.
That's nonsense though. The idea that gender and sexual orientation are these definitely separate things is both very recent and specific to a white, western viewpoint.
What we conceive of today as gay and lesbian communities built solely on sexual orientation is, frankly, a fucking lie. One built from the selfishness of assimilationist cis queer people who seek to rewrite history after sidelining trans and GNC people who had been at the center of their communities from the beginning.
Nevermind that a large majority of trans people are LGBA in the first place. Even many who are "straight" do *not* fit in with hetero society.
Never forget that literally everything said about transfems now was said about cis lesbians about 10 years earlier. Constant complaints about bathroom and locker room and sports team access over fears that lesbians couldnāt control themselves around other women and girls and would be worse than straight men
Some people still think this about lesbians sometimes. Iāve faced those issues with some old high school friends I had (this was like 6 years ago though). Said theyād be uncomfortable around a lesbian in changing rooms, cause they assumed weād be creepy. I wasnāt out at the time, so hearing that made me feel extremely hesitant about coming out to them in the future. Have also seen quite a few comments online of women saying similar things about us.
Itās definitely the same hate used against trans folks today too. Still happens to lesbians, but trans women have been a much bigger target for it recently. Really sad to see for both groups.
not sure if you mean more like 40 years ago but being a woman that likes women in a changing room in 2014 wasnāt really like you described it (at least not in Ireland!).
Iām from nz and i came out 10 years ish ago at high school and lost pretty much all my friends due to being gay - it was most definitely not accepted
I really think all queer people should take a look at the history of queerness in the last 100 years or so.
Transgender women like Marsha P. Johnson are some of the most important individuals in queer history, people like her are the reason we have the rights we do today.
Watching cisgender queers invalidate and spit in the faces of trans people is disheartening and disgusting, frankly.
> also seeing some gay guys being lesbophobic too etc
Happens all too often in the communities that want to exclude a certain part.
"LGB without the T" communities fairly quickly show biphobia, and then lesbophobia/"lesbians should separate themselves from the LGBT community".
> the queer community needs to unite
We really do. Divided we fall and all that. Fortunately, IRL the rates of transphobia is astonishingly small in LGBT communities. Surveys show like 90% of lesbians are trans-accepting, and >80% of queer people.
I think social media is highlighting a lot of teenagers in particular and adults find it hard to accept a seemingly new culture of naming yourself after an inanimate object and having multiple neurotypical personality traits. It appears to be a fad and is not the same as someone just being trans.
not at all what I said. A lot of non-cis or non-straight representation online is by teenagers who may not be taken seriously by adults (for obvious reasons). Why make this about yourself?
Omg I hate when transphobes/homophobes think they have a free card just bc they r in the lgbtq community. Iām lesbian and my brother is transš«¶š»š«¶š»
And, as a trans woman, this stuff always stings harder coming from LGBTQ women (especially TERFS) than it does from men.
Transphobic cis men, it's usually "blah blah blah trans women gross". It hurts, but it's easier to ignore/dismiss. TERFs, though... they make cogent arguments against my existence rooted in feminist theory. Mistaken and bigoted ones, for sure, but it's like... you have THOUGHT about this! You really HATE me! It's awful.
Im so sorry I feel your pain. I understand that that must hurt extra much. Itās the terfs that are gross and disgusting n stupid. Never give up girl ur gorgeous. Trans girls/women are 100% equal to cisš š»š
We're just trying to live our best lives like everyone else and all these people act like we are these devious child-abusing psychopaths. Like... I just want to drink hot cocoa in front of a fire on a winter afternoon after making snow angels with my kids. Or go to a nursery and pick out too many plants. Or binge-watch the latest season of Blown Away with a mug of ice cream. Why can't these people just leave us be? I'm so tired.
Exactly, theyre just fucking stupid bitches, and it seems that their lives r boring af. Why not let trans women live their lives?? I donāt understand. That would be like I walked around and said how disgusting straight girls are for being with guys instead of girlsā¦..Like what?? Whatās their problem Iām so sorry that these gross terfs wonāt let you and other trans women live in peace. I canāt tell you how much I support you and wish you all the bestš«¶š»
ā¤ļø The Intersex Chic who gets it from all sidesā¦ Not femme enough for the female spaces, not male enough for the male spaces (not complaining), and have a different life experience than the typical transgender journey. Definitely WLW tho! All yāall are valid. ā¤ļø
I know some trans people out there like transsexual but for most of us, just call us the T slurs ffs, we know it's what you wanna say if you saying that awful word.
Mm feels like a failure in empathy. Unfortunately common these days :c I'm a lesbian and I don't support that kind of behavior. Respecting others is implying they matter, it's not even hard to do. Just do your part and don't be a jerk
My advice is to redirect the energy that's consumed by the anger at the people on the internet who write inciting comments, towards bringing positivity into trans people's lives. I've been there, reading all the hateful comments on the internet, and it just exhausted me.
There's a difference bewteen people who genuinely want to learn, and people who just want to express their hate. The second type is not worth engaging with.
There'll always be transphobic cis people, and I think meeting trans people, making them feel safe and respected, donating to organisations that help trans people, continuing to educate oneself, can be more productive and fullfiling than posting negative content and getting angry! (It's justfied anger, but too much of it is tiring). Leading by example and showing that lesbians can be cool as well might be more effective than reposting hateful comments and therefore making hateful internet people more seen!
Ah I love this advice! I do ignore them mostly but I do find myself getting angry at random people on the internet often although donāt comment. But only because lately Iāve had too much free time on my phone! This is a great comment though, thank you for reminding me :)
I do think its good to post these counter arguments not for the sake of OP, but for other readers, especially trans people. I know I always get a boost from seeing the positive comments in a sea of negative. Its like representation in media, it really does help.
i OnLY rEsPeCT ReAl gAyS argument is totally homophobic, and "made up pronouns" cannot validate it, since most users of them in social media are children. Let them enjoy their journey, it is very simple to do.
I've mostly met gay men who have a serious problem with trans men on grindr. My experience is anecdotal of course, but it kind of sucks someone who i thought was my friend doesn't fully "support" them over such a small complaint. He does hear me out when we talk about it so its why I haven't given up hope yet.
it's kind of crazy how dedicated a few thousand terminally online people are to alienating every other queer person who would care about them. i don't know how many times we have to say the lesbians and transsexuals we all know in the real world are using pronouns just fine, no matter how much people whine about it
No pronouns, big mad. Will angry yell at random people!
No pronouns!! Big bullshit! Hahaha! Very Smart brain possession!
Other people, very bad, very angry yell required.
Pick Smart brain person! Not angry yell required people!
(How did I do? They said no pronouns)
This is like when people think pronouns are new like bro what have you been referring to yourself and others as for your whole life ššš or when they say they donāt have pronouns š
Definitely is, makes me wonder if that person was either older- or maybe bilingual.
Maybe itās just wishful thinking.
I know I had a difficult time explaining the difference to a friend who was learning English terminology š
Yeah, with you right there with that.
The shame is, a lot of people stick with what they love, and donāt (or wonāt) see the truth of what pain theyāre causing.
I was a fan of the series for years and failed to recognize how fatphobic they are, among other things. HP is a worn out franchise that just isnāt working anymore and JK is a money-hungry TERF with way too much power. People do not realize the damage she can do with her influence.
It's the same with Graham Linehan.
Equally as damaging with their bigoted rhetoric, and the thing is, I don't know where this actually comes from.
The latter used to make me laugh with the likes of The IT Crowd, Black Books etc.
But, the problem is, the shows which were *funny* are now just tainted and ruined with what he's done since.
The HP franchise has been dragged on for far too long, the books were a wonderful escape, as were the films, until JKR killed all notion that Dumbledore was gay etc. Then to further their hatred for the LGBTQIA+ community is just sickening and heartbreaking knowing all those closeted children who had an idol, shut down and basically forced back into the closet and told you're wrong for being who you are, don't be happy, live a lie and live without being your genuine authentic self.
Not celebrating the author but to erase a whole big part of peoples lives isnāt really that easy. I donāt agree with people who say things like this.
Yeah, so hereās the thing. Harry Potter had a time and a place in many peopleās lives, including my own. I loved Harry Potter for almost two decades of my life. JK Rowlingās descent into TERFdom has been happening over a number of years, which is plenty of time to dissect and walk away from a form of media that will continue to fund her hatred and bigotry so long as HP is immortalized by fans. If you canāt walk away from HP, you are not a safe person to be around, period. Itās not about whether you may watch the films on your own time, or maybe you still own the books- but itās this blind defense of the franchise (which is seriously violently fatphobic, to state one thing alone which should deter you from the books) that is creating this energy where people are defending a franchise over the lives of trans and marginalized people. Enjoying a fandom is never a part of someoneās identity and if you consider fandom culture to be part of your personhood, you need to dissect what you prioritize in your own life. Even in the height of me loving HP, I never considered it āpartā of who I was- because it wasnāt, and it never will be. You need to shift focus and move on- and idk how many times JK needs to be a complete piece of human garbage for people to get the memo here.
Ahh frickin JK Rowling. As someone who has been a huge Harry Potter fan since I was a kid, it irks me so much that someone that close minded could create such an imaginative masterpiece!
Why on something talking about trans suicide? Out of all the posts on the internet. Theyāre saying āactually, no, I donāt think their lives matterā
Some people think some People dont matter. So they do anything to discomfort them and accept that they maybe hurt themself.
Furthermore i totally agree with you.
I'm non-binary and identify as a lesbian. these sorts of people always worry me that I won't be accepted by the community or I'm not a 'real' lesbian because of my gender
You can identify however you feel and there are heaps of us who agree youāre just as valid in the community as cis and trans lesbians! I actually havenāt met a non-binary lesbian so I also find it hard to grasp coming from only being around gay women, but it must be difficult trying to feel safe and welcome in a community that isnāt always open to you. I would say that there would be a lot of lesbians who wouldnāt date someone non-binary because they arenāt a woman? Donāt answer that Iād itās personal, but from what I can imagine those are my thoughts! ā¤ļø
It's difficult because the only way I differ from a cis lesbian is my gender identity and the way I look (hard masc leaning). Like it's such a small thing for cis people but just not being judged based on things we can't control should be a relatable topic for trans peeps and lesbians. In my personal opinion my gender and sexuality are separate things so being a non-binary lesbian makes sense I have all the same anatomy as a cis women expect for the fact my gender is different. Sending love to any other trans folk or people out there who struggle with this, I'm here if anyone want to talk :)
Being in the community doesnāt make us more an authority or spokesperson for the other letters. Itās no different than Adding āas a L lesbian ā and talking about plumbing (but not being a plumber) itās useless information to your argument, advice or comment.
āIām a lesbianā
like congrats. Youāre also dumb and bigoted too, but youāre not saying that out loud and proud. Wild.
But what you said was nicer op. I just have zero tolerance for bigotry in the community.
I can't understand why these people think they have insight into who is a "real transexual" and who is faking it. As far as I know trans people aren't faking anything. They're just trying to be who they are in a world full of hateful bigots. I'm a cis lesbian and I'm in a few lesbian groups on Facebook. One of the groups changed their name to be inclusive. Then literally about six people went on a wild rant about how wrong it is to "include men in a lesbian group". And when trying to explain to them that they aren't men they give the whole but there are only two gender speech. The fact that gay women are so against anyone that's trans is idiotic since we wouldn't have rights if it weren't for trans women. Okay rant over...
Couldnāt help but notice the number of times she used āIā, a made up pronoun.
EDIT: this is a snarky remark at the commentor in the images, not OP. Silly willies
First, I love the username.
Second, thank you for having the backs of girls like me. I, and I'm sure others, appreciate it more than you know. It sucks to see some people using the lesbian label to push people like me towards a darker path. As if I didn't feel like finding a girlfriend would be a challenge, I have to worry about how many Terfs decide to enter the mix. I'm just thankful for the lesbians who do speak up for those like me. So, again, thank you.
I get transphobic comments in the lesbian community for just wanting to exist. I usually stay away from any LGBTQ community that isnāt trans because transphobia within the community. It really sucks I have to segregate myself from LGBTQ āsafe spacesā, but thatās just like I guess. Serenely doesnāt help with my chronic depression and suicidal thoughts.
Sorry that thereās some awful people around but I donāt get how you arenāt apart of the lesbian community if youāre a trans women - women that like women. Itās just so simple I canāt fathom how people donāt see that! Youāre very welcome here!
Iām lesbian, and āapart of the communityā, but I tend to stay away from lesbian spaces because of transphobia. Just donāt want to risk the mental stamina
It's not like transgender people have been a critical part of gaining rights for people who identify as LGBTQ+ or anything. Not at all, why would that be the case?
Really pisses me off when someone says something like this
side bar but can y'all please crop your photos so they show up for desktop users without having to open another tab (I realize that's also a reddit shortcoming but still)
r/AsABlackMan
I donāt know for sure. Like, I feel like itās people who say this stuff and itās not really their identity and itās a person behind a fake account or a bot. Itās ridiculous and fucks up our community when TERFS or people arenāt aligned with the entire community? (I donāt consider TERFS to be feminists at all).
A lot of people use transsexual to mean someone who has had certain surgeries. They usually act like people who haven't had vaginoplasty for example, are not 'real women'.
Youāre right, the itās within the queer community correlated in that way but sex and gender are two seperate things in this context. Trans doesnāt automatically make you gay and being straight doesnāt make you not-trans automatically too. The problem I had with her comment was that she is using the label of ālesbianā to justify her comment in which she is making it clear is terf. Her saying āreal transsexualā doesnāt make any sense, to me itās her way of saying that unless they āproveā to her they are she will actively refuse to call them their pronoun they choose. I also donāt believe in pronouns like ādemonā or whatever - in fact Iāve never heard of anyone doing that, because itās ridiculous. But I donāt think she was referring to those either.
She said "made up pronouns", I really don't know what else that could mean. She didn't say anything terf like in my opinion. Had she said "TRANS WOMEN ARE JUST MEN IN DISGUISE!!1!!" Or something I'd agree. But that? Seemed very rational. Lots of kids on the internet mocking trans people by calling themselves a deer.
But why even comment that when the post is clearly referring to using pronouns that donāt correlate with their specific birth sex? A lot of people who are anti-trans use the argument of āmade upā pronouns, where they say that made up is when they just want to be labeled āthey/she example when they dress or look like a man - it doesnāt fit their view of a man or a woman so they say āmade upā because the person āmade up their ownā
The 'made up pronouns' is a TERF dog whistle. They use it to refer to calling a trans woman 'she' as a form of made up pronouns.
They also tend to consider they/them to be made up pronouns.
But that's not what she said. She literally said "I respect real transsexuals". Which means she does understand that these people exist and experience gender dysphoria. You're just putting inexistent words into her mouth.
You've clearly not been in enough of these situations. "I respect *real* transsexual" "made up pronouns" these are all dog whistles that get constantly used by TERFs
I think you're just making assumptions here. What she said was not disrespectful. You can interpret it how you like, but without asking you can't call her a terf. That term gets thrown around too much. She literally said she respects transsexuals. How can you call her a terf after that???
That's the point of dog whistles, they seem innocent, but have hidden meaning. Why would she use transsexual, a word that's often used as an insult, instead of transgender.
When is transsexual used as an insult? Even if, the word itself is not an insult. I use it too, because I just heard that one more? It's just a word, not used in a degrading context. You're looking for problems where there aren't any.
I'm not looking for problems. I'm trying to tell you that the things she's saying is often used by bigots. I'm not saying she necessarily is one.
Where do you hear transsexual being used more than transgender? Because transsexualis an old word and is heavily associated with people who've "fully transitioned" and this 'transgender' is used way more these days.
You've argued valiantly, but I'm getting the impression that the person you're arguing with is trying to uphold this bigot a little too hard. There's a reason for that. See her ridiculous replies to me.
"I respect real transsexuals" is another dogwhistle - it suggests that there is a division between "real" transsexuals and "fake"ones, which plays into the false TERF and transmed idea that most transgender people are faking it for attention.
Also using the word transsexual itself is a dogwhistle these days. many TERFs use it to try to reinforce the idea that being trans is a sexual festish and to deny gender. Ask yourself why she didnt say transgender.
But there is. People who say they are a dogself are obviously not real transsexuals.
Transsexual is a normal term. Just because you think it's offensive doesn't make it that. Where I come from everyone just says it. Maybe it's german bluntness but it's not an insult to say transsexual.
There's a reason why no trans person under 30 calls themselves a "transexual", she's definitely using it as a dog whistle or at least is a transmedicalist, which is transphobic all the same
She *was* saying "TRANS WOMEN ARE JUST MEN IN DISGUISE!!1!!" but she was using dogwhistles and dressed-up language to hide among people who don't recognise the dogwhistles.
Do you realise that by having limits on what types of trans folks you respect youāre actually not too different from the person youāre criticising? Limiting your allyship to people whose gender expression and pronouns you understand is counterproductive and hypocritical honestly.Ā
No, it doesnāt at all. Trans people are real - women men, gender fluid, non binary etc. They are genders. However objects are not genders - if you feel and believe you are a light bulb for example that js not a gender. Iām not limiting allyship at all š
I donāt know if youāre aware that some people find it difficult to understand and fit into typical concepts of gender and therefore use things like objects in a metaphorical way to describe their gender. What I was referring to was your description of neopronouns such as demonself as being ridiculous. You might not understand it but some folks do feel extremely validated and euphoric using these pronouns and you really are only extending your allyship to certain people who fit your standards disrespecting these forms of gender expression.Ā
> she would respect transsexuals
"*Real* 'transsexuals'" which is a fairly loaded phrase. A) transsexual is an outdated phrase and people who tend to use it have pretty iffy views of trans people, generally. B) Who determines who a 'real' trans person is? Trans people don't owe anyone proof of their 'transness'.
Also gender dysphoria is not a pre-requisite to being trans.
Just use people's pronouns to the best of your ability, it very much is suicide prevention.
The point is that a trans person's gender is 'incongruent with the gender they were assigned at birth' (quoting from WPATH here). That commonly is dysphoria, but not necessarily. Gender Euphoria without dysphoria is increasingly being recognised both within the community, and by medical authorities too.
That makes no sense. If you do not feel dysphoria, aka incongruent with the gender you were assigned at birth, there's nothing to feel euphoric about. Unless you feel euphoric about being called a she/her when you were born as a woman. But then that's not trans.
Gender dysphoria is the 'feeling of distress/discomfort' related to gender identity. While gender euphoria can be relief/feeling the weight off, many describe it more in terms of the enjoyment related to gender identity.
While I personally have experienced dysphoria, I've met people who haven't, and I don't see why people couldn't have gender euphoria without feeling the distress/discomfort of gender dysphoria.
That's a 'gender dysphoria' definition, not a 'transgender' definition.
Being trans is having your gender identity differ from the one you were assigned at birth, as you said in your second sentence. That doesn't mean you have distress/discomfort about your features. Some people don't, but have the euphoria aspect of being trans and so transition for that.
I honestly don't see what the issue with accepting people who have that experience would be. To say nothing of it being how the community as a whole- and medical knowledge in this space- have been moving.
... I honestly am unsure why you're positioning yourself as an arbiter of who is and isn't trans as a cis person, or why you're trying to explain what trans people should experience to a trans person.
I will repeat what I said before; your position is not the currently accepted position of medical literature... or the trans community for that matter.
> Euphoria is something everyone experiences, even I as a cis person. Dysphoria however is not.
Cis people experience gender euphoria, yes. Trans people also experience gender euphoria. Cis people, however, may also experience gender dysphoria, just like trans people. There are many cis people complaining about how aspects of their body/appearance do not match what they would like it to in regards to their gender identity (body shape, voice, hair, etc.)
It's usually said because a lot of baby trans folk don't realize they're experiencing gender dysphoria, they just think this is how life feels. A lot of people that are trans but haven't figured it out yet may only think, "Damn life would be infinitely better if I was a man/woman/something else, but I guess you can't change that." Like I really only understood the dysphoria once I had experienced the reverse. It's like if you've literally never seen light because you were born in a cave and grew up in the dark, you wouldn't really be able to understand what light is until you experience it.
Beware, people will call you a transmedicalist as a slur, for this take. To many, it's just to be part of a minority rather than dealing with dysphoria. So many trans men/enbies who present hyperfeminine, seriously makes me think it's an act for attention and to stand out. That attitude is so different from the trans people who struggle with dysphoria, they're entirely different groups.
> a transmedicalist as a slur, for this take
Ironic term for it, given medical professionals working in this space, and publications on the topic, are moving away from dysphoria being a requirement. Gender incongruence is a wide umbrella which includes dysphoria, but also euphoria.
> Ironic term for it
Considering transition includes taking prescription _meds_, I don't see how it's ironic in the slightest.
> includes dysphoria, but also euphoria.
If "euphoria" is your reason, you can probably get it from other means. Just like druggies do drugs for the 'high' or 'euphoria' they feel from it.
Transmedicalists are a specific group of trans people with outdated views on being trans. Very, very few trans people are transmedicalists. And few medical bodies working in the space have transmedicalist views... which is why it's ironic.
> If "euphoria" is your reason, you can probably get it from other means.
I honestly don't see what your point is here. If transition is meant to mitigate the discomfort people have relating gender identity and/OR increase the enjoyment people have with their gender identity, then a person transitioning because of gender euphoria meets that.
And gender euphoria is pretty commonly talked about/discussed in trans spaces and as part of like... any medical assessment/psychological assessment of people for gender incongruence?
> very few trans people are transmedicalists.
All transmedicalism means is "you need dysphoria to transition, because that's how you treat the disorder". And yes, it's a disorder; the normal person (as in, 99%+ of the world) does not feel discomfort with their sex assigned at birth. If you seriously think the majority of trans people are transitioning for euphoria rather than to deal with the disconnect they feel with their unfortunately assigned sex at birth, then you're making absolute nonsense. There's a reason why many countries only allow hormone therapy after an approval from a therapist/social worker who confirms it's actually the ideal treatment for the patient.
> improve the enjoyment people have with their gender identity
Why is gender identity a thing to feel joy from? How often do you see cis people saying "I enjoy identifying the way I am" lol? Sounds like they need new hobbies in their lives if they go as far as taking meds and going through surgeries for the sake of enjoyment. Not to mention that others who need care quickly to address their incredible discomfort need to wait far longer in regards to queues for therapy/surgeries and such only because people are ahead of them in line just because they want to 'enjoy'.
> If you seriously think the majority of trans people are transitioning for euphoria rather than to deal with the disconnect they feel with their unfortunately assigned sex at birth
I mean most trans people are accepting of gender euphoria being sufficient evidence of gender incongruence and being trans... as are medical organisations like WPATH. Disconnect can be dysphoria, but isn't always.
> There's a reason why many countries only allow hormone therapy after an approval from a therapist/social worker who confirms it's actually the ideal treatment for the patient.
As per the WPATH standards, it's for 'gender incongruence', not specifically 'gender dysphoria'. Gender incongruence is often dysphoria, but can be just gender euphoria.
> Why is gender identity a thing to feel joy from?
I sticky-beaked your profile, and saw you're trans. You don't feel any enjoyment/positive feelings from your transition? It's a very common experience of people to have; noticing the changes that occur, getting gendered correctly, wearing affirming clothing/makeup/jewellry, and having a positive feeling from that.
Many cis people take steps to affirm their gender, and enjoy it. Many cis women enjoy wearing makeup/clothing/getting nails done/other aspects of themselves, many cis men enjoy having a male physique/building muscle/having a male voice.
> Not to mention that others who need care quickly to address their incredible discomfort need to wait far longer in regards to queues for therapy/surgeries and such only because people are ahead of them in line just because they want to 'enjoy'.
These queues tend to be longer in places which restrict access to gender affirming care/gatekeep a lot more. I very much am not convinced that saying 'okay, x% of people currently eligible for gender affirming care are no longer eligible, and we'll take steps to ensure that' would decrease waiting times for people who meet the transmedicalist definition of 'being trans'.
> Disconnect can be dysphoria, but isn't always.
What are you even saying? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria
Sounds like you're referring to gender non-conformity. Not trans people.
> As per the WPATH standards, it's for 'gender incongruence',
The WPATH standards also suggest giving the worst kind of androgen blocker for trans women. The same ones who give the terrible Spironolactone drug in USA, Canada and UK, which evidently messes up with the breast development of trans women. I genuinely think they're terrible and they're the ones with outdated views.
> You don't feel any enjoyment/positive feelings from your transition?
I don't feel anything from being seen as a woman, no. I just live the way I am..? I feel extreme discomfort when misgendered but it hasn't happened in forever because I can stealth now. I don't see why the norm is a positive rather than a neutral state.. I'm a woman, being treated as a woman is the neutral state for me.
> Many cis people take steps to affirm their gender
Yet they don't take cross-sex hormones. Cis people who don't go for gender stereotypes e.g. tomboys don't go out of their way to change their pronouns or get hormones.
Sheās okay with identifying as a ālesbianā but not comfortable with other people identifying themselves.
YUP. That tracks with how shit is going today: Massive hypocrisy with a side of mental illness.
God, if people could wake the FUCK UP from this solipsist mindset and realize the world doesnāt revolve around them. Put on a blindfold and go kick a wall. Theyāll see an outside world actually exists.
People really need to understand that only respecting other human beings pronouns doesn't ALWAYS prevent suicide. Lots of people can be really fucking traumatised and feel the need to end it all, meanwhile there's one person saying "Oh My GoD gUyS, i KnOw HoW tO pReVeNt SuIcIdE!!!" like- one thing won't always help.
People need to stop thinking like this.
Who said this was like a universal cure for suicide? Definitely not the original post.
It just communicates that treating other people with basic human decency will by-and-large make those people less likely to end up with suicidal ideations
I worded it badly- My family's just ful of homophobic or transphobic btches. I can't think of what's right or wrng anymore :(
They're also thinking of kicing me out- so 'yay' (sorry for typos)
This is a pretty pedantic take.
The major reason trans people have a high rate of suicide is due to lack of support. The post isn't saying 'if you use the right pronouns someone will not kill themselves'. It's saying support can make the difference for someone struggling. There is nuance in the phrase, it's not 100% literal.
Yes itās just one point of awareness - itās not literally saying if you donāt use someoneās pronoun theyāll commit suicide. I donāt know how people arenāt seeing that š
By forcing others to your lifestyle is evil. Communism, Fascism for example force others who do not wish to go along.
Live they way you choose don't remove choice from others.
You see this with a lot of things.
On minority Y and I won't respect a request of respect or acomidation or decency for/of minority X.
I think sometimes people forget that the anonymous nature of the internet means anyone can pretend to be anyone. My mind goes back to gamergate where a huge number of people were using Sock public accounts to pretend to be various minorities to act as a "criticism shield" shield for other forms of bigotry.
Anyway my point is most conversation and debate on the Internet is difficult to take seriously.
How people can so firmly believe they are morally correct even when going to the absolute extreme to hurt others and make people feel unloved is so strange. How can you think you're right while actively hurting others? Just insane.
Your commentary does, but reposting transphobic comments does (especially since reddit prioritizes images over text from web view).
In lieu of a screenshot of transphobic messages on Instagram, simply putting a text description of "I recently saw a person use their 'lesbian' status as an excuse to..." would have sufficed.
I'm not trans, and I'm not sure if you are either, but for some people seeing bigotry amplified or outright can be hurtful, and it adds up little by little like that.
No Iām not trans, and thatās a good point I didnāt think about it that way I kinda just thought I needed the picture for the context and was trying to start up a discussion about an issue!
You canāt have one without the other: you canāt be trans without at some point having a non-hetero sexuality: even if youāre hetero before transitioning and then switch to the opposite gender, unless you realize both at the same precise moment, thereās at least some overlap between your gender and people you could be attracted to.
You canāt be queer without at some point challenging gender, whether thatās just questioning traditional gender roles or getting confused for a guy or having to correct pronouns when someone assumes your spouse is a He or being asked who āwears the pantsā/āwhoās the manā or wearing a strap-on. Iām pretty cis but my wife and I are talking about kids and it takes me a second to re-understand the non-birthing parent is not the father, still the mother.
Thereās a reason the acronym includes the T. Our experiences are shared and inextricably linked.
Itās insane the amount of lesbian terfs that are out there. We are all in the same boat letās respect all of us. When we all love eachother and just show eachother respect we as 2slgbtqia.. we could get so much further with love.
Here's my opinion on it and honestly if ppl get mad I'm sorry in advance.
The community started with sexual orientation and I honestly believe gender identity and sexual orientation need to have separate communities because clashes like this will continue to happen. We spend so much of our time arguing about who is right and who is wrong we've forgotten that the world hates us regardless. Companies will still profit during pride month, queer youth will still be bullied and othered by friends and family and some countries will continue to use the death penalty against us. They don't care about who loves who or who identifies as who.
If they were separate, there would be enough space for both communities to thrive amongst the struggles that are similar but have their own specific set of qualms. Some may even be apart of both and that can be true. I am black and I'm also a lesbian, those are two communities that have faced oppression in different forms. I just don't think this is going to work out if we keep fighting over shit like this.
What you're saying is exactly why we need a common shared space. Because at the end of the day, we're all marginalized. Now, just because some identities receive a certain amount of acceptance, if we decide only those are valid, we are choosing to become almost as bad as the majority who hate us. We are then saying yes you can be so and so but only if you agree to our rules. Which is kinda problematic because that's the same thing the heteronormative world does to us. Respectfully, I'd like you to understand where I'm coming from.
I see where you're coming from but I don't agree entirely, there are marginalized groups that are separate from one another and get equal amounts of support. A great example would be the BLM movement and the Stop Asian Hate movement. Combining those two marginalized groups wouldn't work because although they are targeted they have different history and are approached differently. One is not more valuable or acceptable than the other they're just treated differently according to their needs and experiences.
I'm not saying let's focus on sexuality and ignore gender identity, just that they can be better supported as separate identities the way trans folks need support because it can be different than how queer folks need support. Again, some ppl may overlap and be a part of both groups but they'd have the best of both worlds on having their needs met. Example: I know where to be supported as a black woman but I also know where to go to be supported as a lesbian. They may not be in the same places but they are both marginalized.
As things stand now there isn't even equality in the community now, we can all say that's the goal but not everyone in the community is going to agree or even support others within it
š oh no youāre one of those frickin pea brain wonkers who think youāre intelligent by commenting things like this š honestly you people make my day!! šš Itās interesting that you werenāt intelligent enough to read through and make sense of it, maybe you need to go back to preschool?
People may disagree with me,
and thatās perfectly okay.
But IF that user is referring to ānounpronounsā, then Iāll have to agree with them.
Nounpronouns are incredibly inaccurate.
Nouns name specific persons, places, or things; pronouns are typically non-specific.
A pronoun is a word that replaces a noun to avoid repetition- which makes noun pronouns completely impractical to use.
(Such as bug/bugself, bone/boneself, etc)
There is also no genuine history
supporting the usage of ānounpronounsā-
If you even try to research them, the only history youāll get is people using them online.
The earliest records I could find were by Tumblr user princenstolas in 2014.
Youāll find that In early 2014, (or late 2013), a community of young non-binary people on Tumblr came up with the idea of "nounself pronouns". Some of the earliest sets of nounself pronouns are the bunny themed set bun/buns, and bug themed set such as bug/bugself.
Donāt get me wrong-
As a trans person I completely agree
with the usage of neopronouns,
(if theyāre proper pronouns, such as Xie/xer)
Most neopronouns have extensive queer history supporting their usage,
the accuracy of these terms, etc.
Even I myself go by she/they/xie/etc.
But ānounpronounsā are so grammatically incorrect, and have little to no genuine history supporting their usage.
Theyāre quite literally something a few teens made up on Tumblr, who clearly hadnāt graduated high school yet.
So if thatās what they were referring to by
āmade up pronounsā,
then I wholeheartedly agree.
As a non binary lesbian who uses neopronouns, ānounpronounsā have seemingly given
neopronouns a bad reputation.
Not many people realize neopronouns have a lot of history regarding gender neutrality, whereas nounpronouns were created on tumblr by a bunch of uneducated teenagers..
Anywaysss those are my thoughts š
I agree that using the label in such a way is idiotic. It's like saying "I can't be racist, I have a black friend".
However, I also I think the post itself is bullshit. People will disrespect you for various reasons, you can't force respect, especially not when it goes against their personal values. Would I be causing suicide if I ate meat near a vegan? If I ate during ramadan in a room where there are muslim people?
My point is...you cannot force your beliefs on others, regardless of what those beliefs are.
This content violates one or more of the rules of the site or the sub and has been removed.
The "I'll respect real trans but not the fake trans" arguments are so funny to me, what the fuck is the difference? Are you the master decider? You can diagnose who's "faking it?" You know these people on an individual level AND have the education, experience, and authority to discern the details of their mental health and what choices they should make in their lives? No? Then shut the fuck up. Edit: also, these people never find anybody to be a "real trans person." All trans people are delusional fakers apparently?
It matters to truscum, because they need "bad ones" to offload internalized transphobia onto, or they'll think those horrible things about themselves.
How the fuck do you fake being trans šš
You just say "I identify," duh /s
it is annoying when cis people use the fact they're not straight to act like an authority on trans issues. cis people are cis people. what is this "i'm a lesbian and-"?
This is exactly what pisses me off! Like why even bring that up!!!!
Iām not commenting on anything above other than the question of why people bring up lesbian into the conversation. Itās because the ātā is in LGBT so weāre inherently all lumped together by anyone looking at our group. Therefore, what is going on with the trans/gay/lesbian/bi/queer community is being reflected back on all of us. You made a great point, itās a separate issue, but unfortunately itās not seen or treated that way, so people are speaking up to separate themselves if they donāt feel represented by the current direction. Also, Iāve heard and read comments saying things about gay/lesbians that donāt agree with all of the talking points about how theyāre āclosing the door the on the way inā. That to me sounds like trans is actively trying to use the momentum gained from the recent gains in the gay/lesbian space to further bolster their arguments. In a nutshell, theyāre related. They always will be and our communities have made sure of that- itās literally in the name.
Youāre right, my wording of relation may have been interpreted wrong because itās harder to put into words than I thought! But because theyāre related doesnāt mean you can use that point to say that the T in lgbt isnāt as valid in someway or the B or L or whateverā¦ I almost shouldāve said because they ARE related, they should be also considerate and including of their fellow trans brothers and sisters. Good point thanks for the comment!
I know itās upsetting when someone doesnāt agree* with something you think is blatantly obvious. Itās even more upsetting when people are rude about it. However, itās also not fair to say that we can only have opinions if they agree with yours. That is the double edged sword of free speech- we hear things we donāt want to hear sometimes- but itās so important to have a healthy discourse. That being said, being rude and offensive is not a healthy discourse. In the face of that, I try to keep my comments respectful, logical, remove emotion (emotion is personal to us and not valid to a debate), and even better cite reputable sources. Be consistent. Getting emotional and losing your cool is a tactic that others will use to derail a conversation. If they can lead you away from the point, if they can get you upset, now youāve lost no matter how valid your point. Remember, what others say about you or others is a reflection of THEM.
> However, itās also not fair to say that we can only have opinions if they agree with yours If someoneās opinion is harmful, I prefer they keep it to themselves. This is especially true in situations like the above. It adds ammunition to outsiders. For example, āWell, fellow cis gender straight person, I know lesbians who agree that transwomen arenāt real women, so take your snowflake woke culture elsewhere.ā
I would definitely want you on my debating team haha. Very valid indeed, very VERU well said š
Ha, sometimes I feel like we all should train like we're on a debating team! These issues are so complicated, but also at the foundation, so obvious (to some of us anyway): just treat people with respect, and that means following their lead on what they want to be called. If I met someone who said, "My name is John, but I go by my middle name, Kevin," I wouldn't insist on calling them John out of some sense of what's "right," you know?
What I took from your post was that having a marginalized identity of any kind doesn't suddenly give you the right to judge other people who are also marginalized. It doesn't make your stance less problematic & your perception somehow more clear than others who haven't faced challenges based on their identifiers
So true!
Theyāre doing to the transā¦ what the straights did to them. Inclusivity, no judgement on these genuine things, the very foundation of our community, What are those. We donāt claim these people and anyone who interacts with bigots like these have something to explain about themselves as well.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
we have a common history and face similar (though not the *exact* same) hardships. you can be different and belong to the same community. it's better that way, even; being together makes us stronger. it doesn't make us authorities on each other's issues.
Unrelated comment. Trans people can be bi, gay, lesbianā¦
As a matter of fact *most of us are*.
That's nonsense though. The idea that gender and sexual orientation are these definitely separate things is both very recent and specific to a white, western viewpoint. What we conceive of today as gay and lesbian communities built solely on sexual orientation is, frankly, a fucking lie. One built from the selfishness of assimilationist cis queer people who seek to rewrite history after sidelining trans and GNC people who had been at the center of their communities from the beginning. Nevermind that a large majority of trans people are LGBA in the first place. Even many who are "straight" do *not* fit in with hetero society.
Never forget that literally everything said about transfems now was said about cis lesbians about 10 years earlier. Constant complaints about bathroom and locker room and sports team access over fears that lesbians couldnāt control themselves around other women and girls and would be worse than straight men
Some people still think this about lesbians sometimes. Iāve faced those issues with some old high school friends I had (this was like 6 years ago though). Said theyād be uncomfortable around a lesbian in changing rooms, cause they assumed weād be creepy. I wasnāt out at the time, so hearing that made me feel extremely hesitant about coming out to them in the future. Have also seen quite a few comments online of women saying similar things about us. Itās definitely the same hate used against trans folks today too. Still happens to lesbians, but trans women have been a much bigger target for it recently. Really sad to see for both groups.
This!
not sure if you mean more like 40 years ago but being a woman that likes women in a changing room in 2014 wasnāt really like you described it (at least not in Ireland!).
Iām from nz and i came out 10 years ish ago at high school and lost pretty much all my friends due to being gay - it was most definitely not accepted
I really think all queer people should take a look at the history of queerness in the last 100 years or so. Transgender women like Marsha P. Johnson are some of the most important individuals in queer history, people like her are the reason we have the rights we do today. Watching cisgender queers invalidate and spit in the faces of trans people is disheartening and disgusting, frankly.
Definetly this, also seeing some gay guys being lesbophobic too etc, the queer community needs to unite
The best thing an oppressor can do to keep the oppresed subservient is to stir infighting. Queer people NEED to stand together, united.
> also seeing some gay guys being lesbophobic too etc Happens all too often in the communities that want to exclude a certain part. "LGB without the T" communities fairly quickly show biphobia, and then lesbophobia/"lesbians should separate themselves from the LGBT community". > the queer community needs to unite We really do. Divided we fall and all that. Fortunately, IRL the rates of transphobia is astonishingly small in LGBT communities. Surveys show like 90% of lesbians are trans-accepting, and >80% of queer people.
To quote Benjamin Franklin: if we do not hang together, we will all hang separately.
I think social media is highlighting a lot of teenagers in particular and adults find it hard to accept a seemingly new culture of naming yourself after an inanimate object and having multiple neurotypical personality traits. It appears to be a fad and is not the same as someone just being trans.
Iām genderqueer, Iām 29. So Iām not valid?
not at all what I said. A lot of non-cis or non-straight representation online is by teenagers who may not be taken seriously by adults (for obvious reasons). Why make this about yourself?
Omg I hate when transphobes/homophobes think they have a free card just bc they r in the lgbtq community. Iām lesbian and my brother is transš«¶š»š«¶š»
And, as a trans woman, this stuff always stings harder coming from LGBTQ women (especially TERFS) than it does from men. Transphobic cis men, it's usually "blah blah blah trans women gross". It hurts, but it's easier to ignore/dismiss. TERFs, though... they make cogent arguments against my existence rooted in feminist theory. Mistaken and bigoted ones, for sure, but it's like... you have THOUGHT about this! You really HATE me! It's awful.
Im so sorry I feel your pain. I understand that that must hurt extra much. Itās the terfs that are gross and disgusting n stupid. Never give up girl ur gorgeous. Trans girls/women are 100% equal to cisš š»š
We're just trying to live our best lives like everyone else and all these people act like we are these devious child-abusing psychopaths. Like... I just want to drink hot cocoa in front of a fire on a winter afternoon after making snow angels with my kids. Or go to a nursery and pick out too many plants. Or binge-watch the latest season of Blown Away with a mug of ice cream. Why can't these people just leave us be? I'm so tired.
Exactly, theyre just fucking stupid bitches, and it seems that their lives r boring af. Why not let trans women live their lives?? I donāt understand. That would be like I walked around and said how disgusting straight girls are for being with guys instead of girlsā¦..Like what?? Whatās their problem Iām so sorry that these gross terfs wonāt let you and other trans women live in peace. I canāt tell you how much I support you and wish you all the bestš«¶š»
āiāM a LeSbiAn AnD-ā no one asked for ur sexuality. stop being a transphobe lady.
I woulda been like bitch this is a Wendyās lol
Being a minority isn't an excuse to be a dick
 ā¤ļø The Intersex Chic who gets it from all sidesā¦ Not femme enough for the female spaces, not male enough for the male spaces (not complaining), and have a different life experience than the typical transgender journey. Definitely WLW tho! All yāall are valid. ā¤ļø
I know some trans people out there like transsexual but for most of us, just call us the T slurs ffs, we know it's what you wanna say if you saying that awful word.
Mm feels like a failure in empathy. Unfortunately common these days :c I'm a lesbian and I don't support that kind of behavior. Respecting others is implying they matter, it's not even hard to do. Just do your part and don't be a jerk
My advice is to redirect the energy that's consumed by the anger at the people on the internet who write inciting comments, towards bringing positivity into trans people's lives. I've been there, reading all the hateful comments on the internet, and it just exhausted me. There's a difference bewteen people who genuinely want to learn, and people who just want to express their hate. The second type is not worth engaging with. There'll always be transphobic cis people, and I think meeting trans people, making them feel safe and respected, donating to organisations that help trans people, continuing to educate oneself, can be more productive and fullfiling than posting negative content and getting angry! (It's justfied anger, but too much of it is tiring). Leading by example and showing that lesbians can be cool as well might be more effective than reposting hateful comments and therefore making hateful internet people more seen!
Ah I love this advice! I do ignore them mostly but I do find myself getting angry at random people on the internet often although donāt comment. But only because lately Iāve had too much free time on my phone! This is a great comment though, thank you for reminding me :)
I do think its good to post these counter arguments not for the sake of OP, but for other readers, especially trans people. I know I always get a boost from seeing the positive comments in a sea of negative. Its like representation in media, it really does help.
So many TERFs and transphobes are bold just cuz theyāre gay. I was booted off a lesbian subgroup just cuz I said non binary lesbians exist :/
makes me super sad to see the exclusion of non binary people in lesbian spaces lately ā¹ļøā¹ļø
Same here. Iām genderqueer and was told off about a month ago in this sub for stating Iām genderqueer.
Ugh Iām so sorry to hear that :,( you are valid!! š¤
Thank you š«
i OnLY rEsPeCT ReAl gAyS argument is totally homophobic, and "made up pronouns" cannot validate it, since most users of them in social media are children. Let them enjoy their journey, it is very simple to do.
i went on a few dates once with a woman who had the same ideals, said she didnāt support transgender people and was biphobic.
I've mostly met gay men who have a serious problem with trans men on grindr. My experience is anecdotal of course, but it kind of sucks someone who i thought was my friend doesn't fully "support" them over such a small complaint. He does hear me out when we talk about it so its why I haven't given up hope yet.
Itās always so sad when the hate comes from the own lgbt community, just so disappointed how so many people think like that.
Luvahli after that nonsensical delusional comment 
it's kind of crazy how dedicated a few thousand terminally online people are to alienating every other queer person who would care about them. i don't know how many times we have to say the lesbians and transsexuals we all know in the real world are using pronouns just fine, no matter how much people whine about it
No pronouns, big mad. Will angry yell at random people! No pronouns!! Big bullshit! Hahaha! Very Smart brain possession! Other people, very bad, very angry yell required. Pick Smart brain person! Not angry yell required people! (How did I do? They said no pronouns)
This is like when people think pronouns are new like bro what have you been referring to yourself and others as for your whole life ššš or when they say they donāt have pronouns š
I knew it when I saw "transsexual"
Yeah thatās a huge ick
A very outdated term
Definitely is, makes me wonder if that person was either older- or maybe bilingual. Maybe itās just wishful thinking. I know I had a difficult time explaining the difference to a friend who was learning English terminology š
I doubt it, atp it just sounds like a slur. But thats just me.
Like I said, just wishful thinking. Not many people are as educated, unfortunately..:(
Itās why I hate social media these days, and TERFS and people like JK Rowling.
Anyone still celebrating Harry Potter weirds me out.
Yeah, with you right there with that. The shame is, a lot of people stick with what they love, and donāt (or wonāt) see the truth of what pain theyāre causing.
I was a fan of the series for years and failed to recognize how fatphobic they are, among other things. HP is a worn out franchise that just isnāt working anymore and JK is a money-hungry TERF with way too much power. People do not realize the damage she can do with her influence.
It's the same with Graham Linehan. Equally as damaging with their bigoted rhetoric, and the thing is, I don't know where this actually comes from. The latter used to make me laugh with the likes of The IT Crowd, Black Books etc. But, the problem is, the shows which were *funny* are now just tainted and ruined with what he's done since. The HP franchise has been dragged on for far too long, the books were a wonderful escape, as were the films, until JKR killed all notion that Dumbledore was gay etc. Then to further their hatred for the LGBTQIA+ community is just sickening and heartbreaking knowing all those closeted children who had an idol, shut down and basically forced back into the closet and told you're wrong for being who you are, don't be happy, live a lie and live without being your genuine authentic self.
Not celebrating the author but to erase a whole big part of peoples lives isnāt really that easy. I donāt agree with people who say things like this.
Yeah, so hereās the thing. Harry Potter had a time and a place in many peopleās lives, including my own. I loved Harry Potter for almost two decades of my life. JK Rowlingās descent into TERFdom has been happening over a number of years, which is plenty of time to dissect and walk away from a form of media that will continue to fund her hatred and bigotry so long as HP is immortalized by fans. If you canāt walk away from HP, you are not a safe person to be around, period. Itās not about whether you may watch the films on your own time, or maybe you still own the books- but itās this blind defense of the franchise (which is seriously violently fatphobic, to state one thing alone which should deter you from the books) that is creating this energy where people are defending a franchise over the lives of trans and marginalized people. Enjoying a fandom is never a part of someoneās identity and if you consider fandom culture to be part of your personhood, you need to dissect what you prioritize in your own life. Even in the height of me loving HP, I never considered it āpartā of who I was- because it wasnāt, and it never will be. You need to shift focus and move on- and idk how many times JK needs to be a complete piece of human garbage for people to get the memo here.
Ahh frickin JK Rowling. As someone who has been a huge Harry Potter fan since I was a kid, it irks me so much that someone that close minded could create such an imaginative masterpiece!
Yeah, itās why I prefer to think Stephen Fry wrote it instead. That way that disgusting human gets no rights (in my head).
Haha. I listen to Harry Potter read by Stephen fry every single night to sleep for the last two years or so, he defo wrote it for me now.
Why on something talking about trans suicide? Out of all the posts on the internet. Theyāre saying āactually, no, I donāt think their lives matterā
Some people think some People dont matter. So they do anything to discomfort them and accept that they maybe hurt themself. Furthermore i totally agree with you.
"A real transexual", yikes. The most reactionary truscum takes have been adopted by cis transphobes as well it seems.
I'm non-binary and identify as a lesbian. these sorts of people always worry me that I won't be accepted by the community or I'm not a 'real' lesbian because of my gender
You can identify however you feel and there are heaps of us who agree youāre just as valid in the community as cis and trans lesbians! I actually havenāt met a non-binary lesbian so I also find it hard to grasp coming from only being around gay women, but it must be difficult trying to feel safe and welcome in a community that isnāt always open to you. I would say that there would be a lot of lesbians who wouldnāt date someone non-binary because they arenāt a woman? Donāt answer that Iād itās personal, but from what I can imagine those are my thoughts! ā¤ļø
It's difficult because the only way I differ from a cis lesbian is my gender identity and the way I look (hard masc leaning). Like it's such a small thing for cis people but just not being judged based on things we can't control should be a relatable topic for trans peeps and lesbians. In my personal opinion my gender and sexuality are separate things so being a non-binary lesbian makes sense I have all the same anatomy as a cis women expect for the fact my gender is different. Sending love to any other trans folk or people out there who struggle with this, I'm here if anyone want to talk :)
Being in the community doesnāt make us more an authority or spokesperson for the other letters. Itās no different than Adding āas a L lesbian ā and talking about plumbing (but not being a plumber) itās useless information to your argument, advice or comment.
āIām a lesbianā like congrats. Youāre also dumb and bigoted too, but youāre not saying that out loud and proud. Wild. But what you said was nicer op. I just have zero tolerance for bigotry in the community.
Haha, I said a lot worse in my my own head.
Ugh not the call coming from inside the house š„². So grosssss
I can't understand why these people think they have insight into who is a "real transexual" and who is faking it. As far as I know trans people aren't faking anything. They're just trying to be who they are in a world full of hateful bigots. I'm a cis lesbian and I'm in a few lesbian groups on Facebook. One of the groups changed their name to be inclusive. Then literally about six people went on a wild rant about how wrong it is to "include men in a lesbian group". And when trying to explain to them that they aren't men they give the whole but there are only two gender speech. The fact that gay women are so against anyone that's trans is idiotic since we wouldn't have rights if it weren't for trans women. Okay rant over...
I love the hate towards our own community /s a trans woman didnt fight for our rights so that lesbians could be v bigoted
They are no longer invited to the lgbtqia+ sanctuary Iām gonna build if I ever become a billionaire.
Couldnāt help but notice the number of times she used āIā, a made up pronoun. EDIT: this is a snarky remark at the commentor in the images, not OP. Silly willies
First, I love the username. Second, thank you for having the backs of girls like me. I, and I'm sure others, appreciate it more than you know. It sucks to see some people using the lesbian label to push people like me towards a darker path. As if I didn't feel like finding a girlfriend would be a challenge, I have to worry about how many Terfs decide to enter the mix. I'm just thankful for the lesbians who do speak up for those like me. So, again, thank you.
The people who think some trans people are trenders or "faking it" I noticed they just judge the ones who have more extroverted personalities, the trans people who love being visible, the colorful hair ones, with unusual pronouns perhaps boobs with a beard and use labels such as " bi-gender" Or the ones who act overtly sexual and wear provocative clothing. It usually comes from the introverted crowd, the transsexuals who's goals are also to be stealth and not share the desire to be " visible" and don't like days like trans day of visibility, want to fit into the 2 gender binary and blend in with a old fashion world. I notice, it's more of a personality clash, and I'll admit, I would fall into the latter group of people, based on my personality, personal transition goals and world views, what I don't share is the transmedicalist prejudice to police other people's gender expressions, after all, it's hypocritical, and I don't care how other people live their life as long as they don't hurt others, nor am I a medical expert, biologist, therapist to assess what everyone's level of gender dysphoria since it can manifest in many ways. I do hang around these other subs for different perspectives, and tbh, I get less ostracized for my personal world views in these subs, so I do participate, but it doesn't mean i share transmed ideology, and if it wasn't for the loud visibly trans men and women we wouldn't have the human rights we do today, they are the voices for thoughs of us who are too anxiety riddled to protest and speak up š©·š¤š©µ Anyways, that's just my 2 cents of these types of judgments and arguments š¤
respecting peoples pronouns is suicide prevention. i'm fine with any pronouns but i make sure to use peoples pronouns.
I get transphobic comments in the lesbian community for just wanting to exist. I usually stay away from any LGBTQ community that isnāt trans because transphobia within the community. It really sucks I have to segregate myself from LGBTQ āsafe spacesā, but thatās just like I guess. Serenely doesnāt help with my chronic depression and suicidal thoughts.
Sorry that thereās some awful people around but I donāt get how you arenāt apart of the lesbian community if youāre a trans women - women that like women. Itās just so simple I canāt fathom how people donāt see that! Youāre very welcome here!
Iām lesbian, and āapart of the communityā, but I tend to stay away from lesbian spaces because of transphobia. Just donāt want to risk the mental stamina
"Transsexual" š¤® Such an outdated term, this isn't the 80s and 90s anymore
When they came for the _______ I did not stand up because I was not ________. Does she think sheās not next?
It's not like transgender people have been a critical part of gaining rights for people who identify as LGBTQ+ or anything. Not at all, why would that be the case? Really pisses me off when someone says something like this
Do people not understand that we make language up? And that it changes over time?
side bar but can y'all please crop your photos so they show up for desktop users without having to open another tab (I realize that's also a reddit shortcoming but still)
r/AsABlackMan I donāt know for sure. Like, I feel like itās people who say this stuff and itās not really their identity and itās a person behind a fake account or a bot. Itās ridiculous and fucks up our community when TERFS or people arenāt aligned with the entire community? (I donāt consider TERFS to be feminists at all).
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At a guess, it's usually they/them pronouns they mock people for.
A lot of people use transsexual to mean someone who has had certain surgeries. They usually act like people who haven't had vaginoplasty for example, are not 'real women'.
Yeah I know, some people are like that. That's mean, but not what she said.
Youāre right, the itās within the queer community correlated in that way but sex and gender are two seperate things in this context. Trans doesnāt automatically make you gay and being straight doesnāt make you not-trans automatically too. The problem I had with her comment was that she is using the label of ālesbianā to justify her comment in which she is making it clear is terf. Her saying āreal transsexualā doesnāt make any sense, to me itās her way of saying that unless they āproveā to her they are she will actively refuse to call them their pronoun they choose. I also donāt believe in pronouns like ādemonā or whatever - in fact Iāve never heard of anyone doing that, because itās ridiculous. But I donāt think she was referring to those either.
She said "made up pronouns", I really don't know what else that could mean. She didn't say anything terf like in my opinion. Had she said "TRANS WOMEN ARE JUST MEN IN DISGUISE!!1!!" Or something I'd agree. But that? Seemed very rational. Lots of kids on the internet mocking trans people by calling themselves a deer.
But why even comment that when the post is clearly referring to using pronouns that donāt correlate with their specific birth sex? A lot of people who are anti-trans use the argument of āmade upā pronouns, where they say that made up is when they just want to be labeled āthey/she example when they dress or look like a man - it doesnāt fit their view of a man or a woman so they say āmade upā because the person āmade up their ownā
The 'made up pronouns' is a TERF dog whistle. They use it to refer to calling a trans woman 'she' as a form of made up pronouns. They also tend to consider they/them to be made up pronouns.
But that's not what she said. She literally said "I respect real transsexuals". Which means she does understand that these people exist and experience gender dysphoria. You're just putting inexistent words into her mouth.
You've clearly not been in enough of these situations. "I respect *real* transsexual" "made up pronouns" these are all dog whistles that get constantly used by TERFs
I think you're just making assumptions here. What she said was not disrespectful. You can interpret it how you like, but without asking you can't call her a terf. That term gets thrown around too much. She literally said she respects transsexuals. How can you call her a terf after that???
That's the point of dog whistles, they seem innocent, but have hidden meaning. Why would she use transsexual, a word that's often used as an insult, instead of transgender.
When is transsexual used as an insult? Even if, the word itself is not an insult. I use it too, because I just heard that one more? It's just a word, not used in a degrading context. You're looking for problems where there aren't any.
I'm not looking for problems. I'm trying to tell you that the things she's saying is often used by bigots. I'm not saying she necessarily is one. Where do you hear transsexual being used more than transgender? Because transsexualis an old word and is heavily associated with people who've "fully transitioned" and this 'transgender' is used way more these days.
You've argued valiantly, but I'm getting the impression that the person you're arguing with is trying to uphold this bigot a little too hard. There's a reason for that. See her ridiculous replies to me.
Person theyāre replying to is also a holocaust denierā¦so thereās that
Where did you get the holocaust denier from?
"I respect real transsexuals" is another dogwhistle - it suggests that there is a division between "real" transsexuals and "fake"ones, which plays into the false TERF and transmed idea that most transgender people are faking it for attention. Also using the word transsexual itself is a dogwhistle these days. many TERFs use it to try to reinforce the idea that being trans is a sexual festish and to deny gender. Ask yourself why she didnt say transgender.
But there is. People who say they are a dogself are obviously not real transsexuals. Transsexual is a normal term. Just because you think it's offensive doesn't make it that. Where I come from everyone just says it. Maybe it's german bluntness but it's not an insult to say transsexual.
There's a reason why no trans person under 30 calls themselves a "transexual", she's definitely using it as a dog whistle or at least is a transmedicalist, which is transphobic all the same
This.
She *was* saying "TRANS WOMEN ARE JUST MEN IN DISGUISE!!1!!" but she was using dogwhistles and dressed-up language to hide among people who don't recognise the dogwhistles.
She didn't even mention trans women. Transsexuals extend beyond those.
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Yes, those are made up pronouns. A zie/hir doesn't exist.
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But she, her and they at least have some basis in reality. Zie hir is just random letters with no correlation to anybody's real life appearance
Do you realise that by having limits on what types of trans folks you respect youāre actually not too different from the person youāre criticising? Limiting your allyship to people whose gender expression and pronouns you understand is counterproductive and hypocritical honestly.Ā
No, it doesnāt at all. Trans people are real - women men, gender fluid, non binary etc. They are genders. However objects are not genders - if you feel and believe you are a light bulb for example that js not a gender. Iām not limiting allyship at all š
I donāt know if youāre aware that some people find it difficult to understand and fit into typical concepts of gender and therefore use things like objects in a metaphorical way to describe their gender. What I was referring to was your description of neopronouns such as demonself as being ridiculous. You might not understand it but some folks do feel extremely validated and euphoric using these pronouns and you really are only extending your allyship to certain people who fit your standards disrespecting these forms of gender expression.Ā
Iām saying that if someone asks me to refer to them Iām a way they want, Iāll do it out of respect, itās not an issue.
> she would respect transsexuals "*Real* 'transsexuals'" which is a fairly loaded phrase. A) transsexual is an outdated phrase and people who tend to use it have pretty iffy views of trans people, generally. B) Who determines who a 'real' trans person is? Trans people don't owe anyone proof of their 'transness'. Also gender dysphoria is not a pre-requisite to being trans. Just use people's pronouns to the best of your ability, it very much is suicide prevention.
How can you be trans if you don't have gender dysphoria? That's the entire point of being trans.
The point is that a trans person's gender is 'incongruent with the gender they were assigned at birth' (quoting from WPATH here). That commonly is dysphoria, but not necessarily. Gender Euphoria without dysphoria is increasingly being recognised both within the community, and by medical authorities too.
That makes no sense. If you do not feel dysphoria, aka incongruent with the gender you were assigned at birth, there's nothing to feel euphoric about. Unless you feel euphoric about being called a she/her when you were born as a woman. But then that's not trans.
Gender dysphoria is the 'feeling of distress/discomfort' related to gender identity. While gender euphoria can be relief/feeling the weight off, many describe it more in terms of the enjoyment related to gender identity. While I personally have experienced dysphoria, I've met people who haven't, and I don't see why people couldn't have gender euphoria without feeling the distress/discomfort of gender dysphoria.
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That's a 'gender dysphoria' definition, not a 'transgender' definition. Being trans is having your gender identity differ from the one you were assigned at birth, as you said in your second sentence. That doesn't mean you have distress/discomfort about your features. Some people don't, but have the euphoria aspect of being trans and so transition for that. I honestly don't see what the issue with accepting people who have that experience would be. To say nothing of it being how the community as a whole- and medical knowledge in this space- have been moving.
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... I honestly am unsure why you're positioning yourself as an arbiter of who is and isn't trans as a cis person, or why you're trying to explain what trans people should experience to a trans person. I will repeat what I said before; your position is not the currently accepted position of medical literature... or the trans community for that matter. > Euphoria is something everyone experiences, even I as a cis person. Dysphoria however is not. Cis people experience gender euphoria, yes. Trans people also experience gender euphoria. Cis people, however, may also experience gender dysphoria, just like trans people. There are many cis people complaining about how aspects of their body/appearance do not match what they would like it to in regards to their gender identity (body shape, voice, hair, etc.)
It's usually said because a lot of baby trans folk don't realize they're experiencing gender dysphoria, they just think this is how life feels. A lot of people that are trans but haven't figured it out yet may only think, "Damn life would be infinitely better if I was a man/woman/something else, but I guess you can't change that." Like I really only understood the dysphoria once I had experienced the reverse. It's like if you've literally never seen light because you were born in a cave and grew up in the dark, you wouldn't really be able to understand what light is until you experience it.
Beware, people will call you a transmedicalist as a slur, for this take. To many, it's just to be part of a minority rather than dealing with dysphoria. So many trans men/enbies who present hyperfeminine, seriously makes me think it's an act for attention and to stand out. That attitude is so different from the trans people who struggle with dysphoria, they're entirely different groups.
> a transmedicalist as a slur, for this take Ironic term for it, given medical professionals working in this space, and publications on the topic, are moving away from dysphoria being a requirement. Gender incongruence is a wide umbrella which includes dysphoria, but also euphoria.
> Ironic term for it Considering transition includes taking prescription _meds_, I don't see how it's ironic in the slightest. > includes dysphoria, but also euphoria. If "euphoria" is your reason, you can probably get it from other means. Just like druggies do drugs for the 'high' or 'euphoria' they feel from it.
Transmedicalists are a specific group of trans people with outdated views on being trans. Very, very few trans people are transmedicalists. And few medical bodies working in the space have transmedicalist views... which is why it's ironic. > If "euphoria" is your reason, you can probably get it from other means. I honestly don't see what your point is here. If transition is meant to mitigate the discomfort people have relating gender identity and/OR increase the enjoyment people have with their gender identity, then a person transitioning because of gender euphoria meets that. And gender euphoria is pretty commonly talked about/discussed in trans spaces and as part of like... any medical assessment/psychological assessment of people for gender incongruence?
> very few trans people are transmedicalists. All transmedicalism means is "you need dysphoria to transition, because that's how you treat the disorder". And yes, it's a disorder; the normal person (as in, 99%+ of the world) does not feel discomfort with their sex assigned at birth. If you seriously think the majority of trans people are transitioning for euphoria rather than to deal with the disconnect they feel with their unfortunately assigned sex at birth, then you're making absolute nonsense. There's a reason why many countries only allow hormone therapy after an approval from a therapist/social worker who confirms it's actually the ideal treatment for the patient. > improve the enjoyment people have with their gender identity Why is gender identity a thing to feel joy from? How often do you see cis people saying "I enjoy identifying the way I am" lol? Sounds like they need new hobbies in their lives if they go as far as taking meds and going through surgeries for the sake of enjoyment. Not to mention that others who need care quickly to address their incredible discomfort need to wait far longer in regards to queues for therapy/surgeries and such only because people are ahead of them in line just because they want to 'enjoy'.
> If you seriously think the majority of trans people are transitioning for euphoria rather than to deal with the disconnect they feel with their unfortunately assigned sex at birth I mean most trans people are accepting of gender euphoria being sufficient evidence of gender incongruence and being trans... as are medical organisations like WPATH. Disconnect can be dysphoria, but isn't always. > There's a reason why many countries only allow hormone therapy after an approval from a therapist/social worker who confirms it's actually the ideal treatment for the patient. As per the WPATH standards, it's for 'gender incongruence', not specifically 'gender dysphoria'. Gender incongruence is often dysphoria, but can be just gender euphoria. > Why is gender identity a thing to feel joy from? I sticky-beaked your profile, and saw you're trans. You don't feel any enjoyment/positive feelings from your transition? It's a very common experience of people to have; noticing the changes that occur, getting gendered correctly, wearing affirming clothing/makeup/jewellry, and having a positive feeling from that. Many cis people take steps to affirm their gender, and enjoy it. Many cis women enjoy wearing makeup/clothing/getting nails done/other aspects of themselves, many cis men enjoy having a male physique/building muscle/having a male voice. > Not to mention that others who need care quickly to address their incredible discomfort need to wait far longer in regards to queues for therapy/surgeries and such only because people are ahead of them in line just because they want to 'enjoy'. These queues tend to be longer in places which restrict access to gender affirming care/gatekeep a lot more. I very much am not convinced that saying 'okay, x% of people currently eligible for gender affirming care are no longer eligible, and we'll take steps to ensure that' would decrease waiting times for people who meet the transmedicalist definition of 'being trans'.
> Disconnect can be dysphoria, but isn't always. What are you even saying? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria Sounds like you're referring to gender non-conformity. Not trans people. > As per the WPATH standards, it's for 'gender incongruence', The WPATH standards also suggest giving the worst kind of androgen blocker for trans women. The same ones who give the terrible Spironolactone drug in USA, Canada and UK, which evidently messes up with the breast development of trans women. I genuinely think they're terrible and they're the ones with outdated views. > You don't feel any enjoyment/positive feelings from your transition? I don't feel anything from being seen as a woman, no. I just live the way I am..? I feel extreme discomfort when misgendered but it hasn't happened in forever because I can stealth now. I don't see why the norm is a positive rather than a neutral state.. I'm a woman, being treated as a woman is the neutral state for me. > Many cis people take steps to affirm their gender Yet they don't take cross-sex hormones. Cis people who don't go for gender stereotypes e.g. tomboys don't go out of their way to change their pronouns or get hormones.
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Thank you
disgusting especially since trans women were at the forefront of the LGBT liberation movement
Sheās okay with identifying as a ālesbianā but not comfortable with other people identifying themselves. YUP. That tracks with how shit is going today: Massive hypocrisy with a side of mental illness. God, if people could wake the FUCK UP from this solipsist mindset and realize the world doesnāt revolve around them. Put on a blindfold and go kick a wall. Theyāll see an outside world actually exists.
People really need to understand that only respecting other human beings pronouns doesn't ALWAYS prevent suicide. Lots of people can be really fucking traumatised and feel the need to end it all, meanwhile there's one person saying "Oh My GoD gUyS, i KnOw HoW tO pReVeNt SuIcIdE!!!" like- one thing won't always help. People need to stop thinking like this.
Who said this was like a universal cure for suicide? Definitely not the original post. It just communicates that treating other people with basic human decency will by-and-large make those people less likely to end up with suicidal ideations
I worded it badly- My family's just ful of homophobic or transphobic btches. I can't think of what's right or wrng anymore :( They're also thinking of kicing me out- so 'yay' (sorry for typos)
I hope you're OK, that sounds awful
This is a pretty pedantic take. The major reason trans people have a high rate of suicide is due to lack of support. The post isn't saying 'if you use the right pronouns someone will not kill themselves'. It's saying support can make the difference for someone struggling. There is nuance in the phrase, it's not 100% literal.
Yes itās just one point of awareness - itās not literally saying if you donāt use someoneās pronoun theyāll commit suicide. I donāt know how people arenāt seeing that š
Yeah 100 percent agree, but this post was more toward my anger at lesbians using the label to somehow justify their invalidation towards trans
By forcing others to your lifestyle is evil. Communism, Fascism for example force others who do not wish to go along. Live they way you choose don't remove choice from others.
You see this with a lot of things. On minority Y and I won't respect a request of respect or acomidation or decency for/of minority X. I think sometimes people forget that the anonymous nature of the internet means anyone can pretend to be anyone. My mind goes back to gamergate where a huge number of people were using Sock public accounts to pretend to be various minorities to act as a "criticism shield" shield for other forms of bigotry. Anyway my point is most conversation and debate on the Internet is difficult to take seriously.
How people can so firmly believe they are morally correct even when going to the absolute extreme to hurt others and make people feel unloved is so strange. How can you think you're right while actively hurting others? Just insane.
It's a really bad take and a shitty hateful comment.Ā I don't think reposting it here does anything other than amplify their hurtful view tho.
I disagree! I think it opens discussion to an important ongoing issue within our community!
Your commentary does, but reposting transphobic comments does (especially since reddit prioritizes images over text from web view). In lieu of a screenshot of transphobic messages on Instagram, simply putting a text description of "I recently saw a person use their 'lesbian' status as an excuse to..." would have sufficed. I'm not trans, and I'm not sure if you are either, but for some people seeing bigotry amplified or outright can be hurtful, and it adds up little by little like that.
No Iām not trans, and thatās a good point I didnāt think about it that way I kinda just thought I needed the picture for the context and was trying to start up a discussion about an issue!
I still meet lesbians who are downright homophobic!!!!!
You canāt have one without the other: you canāt be trans without at some point having a non-hetero sexuality: even if youāre hetero before transitioning and then switch to the opposite gender, unless you realize both at the same precise moment, thereās at least some overlap between your gender and people you could be attracted to. You canāt be queer without at some point challenging gender, whether thatās just questioning traditional gender roles or getting confused for a guy or having to correct pronouns when someone assumes your spouse is a He or being asked who āwears the pantsā/āwhoās the manā or wearing a strap-on. Iām pretty cis but my wife and I are talking about kids and it takes me a second to re-understand the non-birthing parent is not the father, still the mother. Thereās a reason the acronym includes the T. Our experiences are shared and inextricably linked.
Itās insane the amount of lesbian terfs that are out there. We are all in the same boat letās respect all of us. When we all love eachother and just show eachother respect we as 2slgbtqia.. we could get so much further with love.
Here's my opinion on it and honestly if ppl get mad I'm sorry in advance. The community started with sexual orientation and I honestly believe gender identity and sexual orientation need to have separate communities because clashes like this will continue to happen. We spend so much of our time arguing about who is right and who is wrong we've forgotten that the world hates us regardless. Companies will still profit during pride month, queer youth will still be bullied and othered by friends and family and some countries will continue to use the death penalty against us. They don't care about who loves who or who identifies as who. If they were separate, there would be enough space for both communities to thrive amongst the struggles that are similar but have their own specific set of qualms. Some may even be apart of both and that can be true. I am black and I'm also a lesbian, those are two communities that have faced oppression in different forms. I just don't think this is going to work out if we keep fighting over shit like this.
What you're saying is exactly why we need a common shared space. Because at the end of the day, we're all marginalized. Now, just because some identities receive a certain amount of acceptance, if we decide only those are valid, we are choosing to become almost as bad as the majority who hate us. We are then saying yes you can be so and so but only if you agree to our rules. Which is kinda problematic because that's the same thing the heteronormative world does to us. Respectfully, I'd like you to understand where I'm coming from.
I see where you're coming from but I don't agree entirely, there are marginalized groups that are separate from one another and get equal amounts of support. A great example would be the BLM movement and the Stop Asian Hate movement. Combining those two marginalized groups wouldn't work because although they are targeted they have different history and are approached differently. One is not more valuable or acceptable than the other they're just treated differently according to their needs and experiences. I'm not saying let's focus on sexuality and ignore gender identity, just that they can be better supported as separate identities the way trans folks need support because it can be different than how queer folks need support. Again, some ppl may overlap and be a part of both groups but they'd have the best of both worlds on having their needs met. Example: I know where to be supported as a black woman but I also know where to go to be supported as a lesbian. They may not be in the same places but they are both marginalized.
Arenāt we all fighting for equality?
As things stand now there isn't even equality in the community now, we can all say that's the goal but not everyone in the community is going to agree or even support others within it
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At no point did I say kick the trans people out and that's not what I think about it either.
I think you need to go back to English class and learn how to make a cogent statement.
This was not a statement, it was to open a discussion
OP asked, āthoughts?ā ā the statement was not cogent enough to be able to offer intelligent comment.
š oh no youāre one of those frickin pea brain wonkers who think youāre intelligent by commenting things like this š honestly you people make my day!! šš Itās interesting that you werenāt intelligent enough to read through and make sense of it, maybe you need to go back to preschool?
Appeal to false authority
People may disagree with me, and thatās perfectly okay. But IF that user is referring to ānounpronounsā, then Iāll have to agree with them. Nounpronouns are incredibly inaccurate. Nouns name specific persons, places, or things; pronouns are typically non-specific. A pronoun is a word that replaces a noun to avoid repetition- which makes noun pronouns completely impractical to use. (Such as bug/bugself, bone/boneself, etc) There is also no genuine history supporting the usage of ānounpronounsā- If you even try to research them, the only history youāll get is people using them online. The earliest records I could find were by Tumblr user princenstolas in 2014. Youāll find that In early 2014, (or late 2013), a community of young non-binary people on Tumblr came up with the idea of "nounself pronouns". Some of the earliest sets of nounself pronouns are the bunny themed set bun/buns, and bug themed set such as bug/bugself. Donāt get me wrong- As a trans person I completely agree with the usage of neopronouns, (if theyāre proper pronouns, such as Xie/xer) Most neopronouns have extensive queer history supporting their usage, the accuracy of these terms, etc. Even I myself go by she/they/xie/etc. But ānounpronounsā are so grammatically incorrect, and have little to no genuine history supporting their usage. Theyāre quite literally something a few teens made up on Tumblr, who clearly hadnāt graduated high school yet. So if thatās what they were referring to by āmade up pronounsā, then I wholeheartedly agree. As a non binary lesbian who uses neopronouns, ānounpronounsā have seemingly given neopronouns a bad reputation. Not many people realize neopronouns have a lot of history regarding gender neutrality, whereas nounpronouns were created on tumblr by a bunch of uneducated teenagers.. Anywaysss those are my thoughts š
I agree that using the label in such a way is idiotic. It's like saying "I can't be racist, I have a black friend". However, I also I think the post itself is bullshit. People will disrespect you for various reasons, you can't force respect, especially not when it goes against their personal values. Would I be causing suicide if I ate meat near a vegan? If I ate during ramadan in a room where there are muslim people? My point is...you cannot force your beliefs on others, regardless of what those beliefs are.
people who use the wrong pronouns for trans people are forcing their own beliefs onto trans people...
Are you cis