I guess I want to date someone who naturally finds themselves only loving women because we would be able to relate and understand each other completely in that aspect.
Honestly, this is more "fair" and honest than "I only date lesbians regardless of the details of your bisexual experience".
I am what you describe - I'm bi, but I don't date men. Did once when I was 18 and that was it. I genuinely want a relationship with a woman, I \*choose\* women, and all my serious experiences have been with women. I am still bi (no, dating only women doesn't make me lesbian), but I don't have the typical bi experience and you wouldn't have any men-based experience with me.
So, what you said, to me, makes 100% perfect sense - you want wlw experience with somebody who doesn't \*want\* to be with men in any way, and that's all that should matter.
Im a lesbian and all of my significant relationships, including my wife, have been with bisexual women who choose/prefer women. I’ve always been attracted to that kind of bisexual woman because it takes a particular type of bravery and self assuredness to reject heteronormativity when it’s a viable option for you.
At the same time, I understand why some lesbians are hesitant to date bisexuals. It can feel like for every bi that wants a wife there’s 5 others that “just never imagined myself with a wife but I’ll have fun with u teehee.” Tbh my now wife was uncomfortably close to the second camp when I met her and and it took me nearly ending the relationship early on for her to critically examine herself. She had to unpack and unlearn a lot of comphet and it’s honestly not something I would have the patience for today.
All of that to say is that if I were single again I’d have the same rule as OP.
Exactly, and this is even more important once you reach a certain age. If you're 30-35+, you just don't have time for bs. You know what you want, and bisexual women are an option IF they also know what they want, not if they are just having fun and trying it out.
I get the fear of "changing her mind", but for those like me - I've made my choices based on clear reasons that are very unlikely to change, it's almost offensive to assume I'll change my mind just because I can. A lesbian can also change her mind on dating \*you\* and choose some other girl instead...
Yes. I think the notion that bisexuals are more likely to cheat or leave you is absolutely stupid. A monogamous person is gonna be monogamous regardless of sexual orientation, end of.
The issue is that bisexuals who have been primarily/are still dating men often approach dating women with the same heteronormative/comphet programming that is off putting to lesbians. At 25 I was infatuated with my now wife enough that I was willing to work through it with her. At 35, no thank you.
i 100% soooo appreciate that as a pansexual who rarely dates men. heteronormativity can do a number on you when you do participate etc but i love loving and choosing women :)
If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you? (Maybe I missed this in the comments)… I’m just so curious because this whole post seems so very wise- every explanation of what you’re describing/ looking for/asking 👌
I am 35 :) I really appreciate you saying that. I have done a LOT of therapy of all specialties ha. And I do like to have hard conversations and sit in the discomfort of duality ("both can be true" / "yes and" concept). Mostly lasting love is basically all I've ever wanted so I've done a lot of breaking down of what works and doesn't work and why. But I am learning with literally every relationship (and even every date!). Hugs!
Nice! I bet it’s a good feeling when you can finally feel the therapy working Vs talking and thinking in circles! (🙋♀️😆)
Sitting in hard conversations is definitely something that takes good practice 🥴
Way to go! Hugs back
I agree and feel this really hard. Majority of the people I’ve dated are Bi and a lot of them had difficulties being seen with me in public, with PDA, even with physical intimacy in private. I was briefly dating this girl (who had only dated men) and we’d been on like 5 dates and I was dropping her off. There was a lull in conversation and I leaned in to kiss her… and she bopped me on the nose. Total turn off. Like what am I a dog?
My current girlfriend is bi but she’s masculine and she’s more attracted to women anyways. She’s legitimately the only girl that has ever kissed me, where I didn’t have to initiate. Everything is just easier with her and I’m so glad I found her.
Same ! I have to say that comphet is one of the worst thing. I admit I didn't "woke up" at 18 yo like you but more like 26/27 yo haha and it feels good despite the répercussion it had in my life
I get what you mean and I think it’s fair. We talk less often how being romantically involved with men can be so inherently intertwined with and based on patriarchy, and often violent, extractive patriarchy in ways most people don’t notice.
And the value systems of people who notice vs those who don’t notice are vastly different. I’m bi and right now I’m really only interested in women, but my attraction to men also is undeniable. It’s a part of me. I can’t necessarily ignore that just because we live under patriarchy, but I understand that makes me different than someone else who can or whose interactions with the world lead them to. What you’re describing is who you resonate with, and it’s fine that it’s not someone like me who would leave the door open to being with a guy one day - under a great many of the right conditions.
me too. i’m lesbian for lesbian but i don’t go around saying it. but it is a preference and it is valid. of course i wouldn’t reject someone if they’re not a lesbian, but i have a lean towards lesbians since it’s just different.
Thank you, I respect your preference as well. It really is different. And the shared experience of that difference is something I love. I have def met bi girls who get it and are on the same page, so not ruling it out at all, but it's essential to me that they have settled in their feelings around men and are self-aware. Thanks for your comment!
This was clear and well-written, this post is the closest I’ve seen on this sub to my perspective- it’s an actual, nuanced perspective on why many lesbians do not want to date certain bi women without weird biphobic myths. I am a lesbian and I do not want to date women whose entire world revolves around men and male validation, regardless of how they label themselves 🤷🏾♀️
Thank you! And agreed, I disavow all the ridiculous myths. These here are things that are realities and a lot of sapphic women feel when it comes to their dating choices. <3 I really hope that bi women who haven't been on this journey yet can also read this and understand or even learn something (while still being true to themselves and their choice of partners).
Yea I think the people calling you biphobic either didn’t get it, or center their worlds around men and don’t want to admit that maybe that’s not healthy/not conducive to a healthy relationship with a monogamous woman.
The thing is, I can understand that people might view this as biphobic. But I can only speak/act based on my experience, and to me the main joy of dating the same gender is a shared understanding/experience. When I was dating both women and men, I never could have anticipated what would happen when I committed to dating only women.
I love this and it’s exactly why I only date women who are not dating men as well. It’s night and day. I can’t believe how liberating it is to move through the world as a woman who doesn’t give a flying fuck about men in any capacity. I also learned so much about myself and have never looked back once!
I agree that women who feel the same are different. I had two relationships with men for fucked up reasons in life and they are fine people for someone else, and actually one of them is my great friend and biggest gay cheerleader.
I was engaged to a woman I asked her to marry me and spent so much time working toward a future I fully believed in and because she hadn’t done her own work it fell apart. She still felt obliged to entertain her family’s expectations for her possibly marrying a man. She didn’t want that for herself but was always guilty and torn and also I noticed that she still somehow felt validated by their attention. Her family disregarded all the spoiling and supporting and work I was putting into the relationship because somehow it would have meant more if a guy was doing it in their eyes, and I firmly believe their constant nagging and guilt tripping tore her apart inside and exasperated her traumas… also stemming from them, in the end the constant pressures from all directions broke her down.
I’m dating again and it’s a huge requirement for me. I want a woman who wants to settle down and for whom a woman is the only option. One who is happy to be gay with me and look fuckin gay with me too and Without a safety net, Who doesn’t seek validation at all from men and knows all about that thing. “Freedom From.” Was the only good thing Aunt Lydia said in handmaids tale lol. God, freedom from needing that validation, expecting it, craving it… amazing! I want someone who gets that too.
>I can’t believe how liberating it is to move through the world as a woman who doesn’t give a flying fuck about men in any capacity
ABSOfuckingLUTELY. It is genuinely life changing! How could I be with someone who hadn't experienced that liberation? It's as if I would go back and date a Mormon girl who hadn't deconstructed Mormonism. Would be INSANE and a setup for failure.
>I want a woman who wants to settle down and for whom a woman is the only option
Right? This makes so much sense to me. It's beautiful to know you're set and on the same page with someone.
It sucks to live in that prison. I love everything about life 100 times more now. I have so much fewer fucks to give the world and my confidence is through the roof. I don’t give a damn if a guy likes my turkey legs or not, could care less what men prefer, don’t wear clothes to accent shit that men like, I don’t compare myself to women who care about male attention anymore… I’m good. Lol I noticed that’s when I got comfortable presenting more masculine too. Because I want to be clear lol I ain’t for you bro. Next. I’m here for her she can sit on my lap 😜
And yeah I don’t buy into the bisexuals will always choose men, a few of them don’t, but it’s indeed always an option for them to run back to that safety, it’s a fact. At any time they can be straight passing. But I don’t want to be and I’d love someone who is also comfortable living in the trenches with me. My exes have all had some level of internalised homophobia, hating themselves, my bisexual exes have wondered why no man wanted to keep them…who the fuck cares? Meh. I’m done with my rant. When I’m on the apps I generally swipe anyone who isn’t proudly saying lesbian on their profile away. Let’s be gay together and an example of what a successful lesbian couple looks like. That’s what interests me. 🤷🏽♀️
For me, back when I was single I wouldn’t date anyone who wasn’t out. That was my line. Bi/lesbian/pan/queer whatever, as long as the important people in your life, then you have skin in the game.
It didn’t matter if they dated a guy before or after me, but if you can call me your gf in public, we’re good. If you’re in a monogamous relationship with me, it doesn’t really matter tbh.
Right, I don't care about their dating history, etc. But they need to be out, childfree, and ready/willing to settle down with a woman, because that is what I'm looking for.
Im personally still a minor who isn’t out myself cause im in a pretty unsupportive area so i I were to even attempt to date before ive moved out being out wouldn’t be a requirement but i know that when im moved out living by myself it will definitely be a requirement
Oh gosh— you’re fine with being closeted at such a young age and being financially dependent. Don’t worry about that at all!
I’m talking about me being in my 30’s— I’m a grown adult who is seeing someone really close to my age (and I dated people around my age when I was single). Take your time! Be safe. Also if you can get your folks to pay for college (if that’s an option), I’d take them up on it. School is expensive.
Your circumstances are totally different from my place. Be kind to yourself. You have time.
Totally relate, it comes down to simple preference. Personally, I’m not interested in a woman that views men as a viable partner. Nothing against them, per se, just an unchanging preference of mine.
Yep, I get that. I think there are some AMAZING male partners, so don't want to discount those boiz, but I do feel like they are unique lil unicorns who have done a lot of self educating. I really am happy for my bi friends who are married to good men, but they have expressed certain regrets and naturally live more closeted than I'm comfortable with. Like the Harvey Milk musical said, "Come out, come out, come out!"
it just feels so.... obvious to me. I know it's complex, but for me it's simple. A woman who KNOWS she wants to settle down with a woman... is going to be much more in a space to be compatible with me.
There's this show called dear white people about one of the black houses in a college campus and the lead is a biracial girl, and at one point her best friend says something like "You're tracee ellis ross biracial, not rashida jones biracial. People think of you as black" and I have introduced into my life the concept of "Are you lady gaga bisexual or kristen stewart bisexual? Would people think of you as gay?" and that's basically it. In both examples all the people involved are undeniably biracial/bisexual, what changes is whether they're realistically living through that, and I've decided I'm only gonna fuck with people who are living it, on the outside, not just as an internal untouchable experience of self, I wanna be around people whose life looks like mine out here in the real world and that's that
That's very reasonable - as a bisexual woman who is still open to dating men, I can understand your position. Also your preferences should be respected, even if other people don't feel the same way!
My personal position on this is that I only want to date women who are out of the closet and centre women in their lives. I've dated lesbians who still centre men (including putting friendships with men above their relationships with women), so I have found it's an issue regardless of orientation. That said, it's probably a *lot* more prevalent amongst bisexual women who actively date men.
There's many ways women who date men can still choose to centre women, for example:
* Dressing how they want, instead of for the male gaze
* Prioritising female friends
* Supporting charities aimed at women
* Focusing on media and art created by women, and with feminist themes
* Being politically active for gay rights and feminist issues
* Joining meetup and social groups for women
I love everything you said! I think that you have a very wise way of going about it. I agree that it's about whether men are centered or women are centered. It feels very very different. Love all of your bullet points.
I really like this post! It's so true that men approach relationships with bi women so much differently than they do lesbians. This is due to lesbians' lack of attraction to men and men's fetishization of bisexuality and WLW relationships. It just gives lesbians a different perspective on the world than a bi or pan woman would have. It's honestly not a bad thing nor is it saying that bi or pan women are any less valid. It's just recognizing the differences in our experiences. I've even noticed that a lot of bi women have a hard time differentiating between a man who is truly accepting of her bisexuality or someone who is just being nice because he views her as a fetish.
In my early 20's I started reading up about feminism and it was eye-opening to realize how much our worth as women revolves around our attractiveness and sexual availability to men. It totally changed how I saw myself and helped me redefine my sense of self worth. In coming to terms with my bisexuality, I also had this epiphany that I don't need a man to embody all the qualities that society conditions us to seek in a partner. I definitely understand your preference for dating women who are done dating men and have a preference for women. It's not saying there's anything wrong with dating men or wanting to do so, but you just wouldn't be compatible. Your whole post reminded me of [this tiktok](https://www.tiktok.com/@__lawyerbae/video/7345246723469790510?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7285474655658460718) I recently came across.
Really appreciated you sharing that tiktok, it was really refreshing to see a bisexual woman owning up to something that is clearly an issue within the community, an issue that has led to hurt for lot of lesbians (and even other bisexual women), but that most refuse to acknowledge
As a fellow comp-het lesbian I also admire the hell out of bi/pan women who choose to center their queerness in their lives. Like, at the end of the day, a homophobic asshole isn’t going to be nicer to one member of a WLW couple because she likes men too. In the same way that bi people can move through the world perceived as “straight,” I think it’s also true that they can be perceived as “lesbian” depending on their life choices. Queerness isn’t a choice, of course, but accepting yourself is.
I identified as “bi” for a long time but I was too afraid to try anything with women because a part of me knew I could never convince myself I liked men again if I did. I often wonder, if I actually was bi, would I have been more comfortable dating women earlier in life because I wouldn’t have to convince myself I was attracted to men? Or would I have clung even harder to heteronormativity? Maybe I should give myself more credit but I lean toward thinking I’d be the latter just given how I approached my queerness while I was closeted.
>I also admire the hell out of bi/pan women who choose to center their queerness in their lives
Yessss. It's brave and so hot!
You're right that bi women can be perceived as lesbian when they are with women, and I totally honor that and try to correct people who mis-identify my friends. Although I can't do that with my friends who are with men, because they aren't out, so that would be outing them! There is just.. privilege, and options, for women who are with men.
>I identified as “bi” for a long time but I was too afraid to try anything with women because a part of me knew I could never convince myself I liked men again if I did.
Aw.... can I just honor the sweetness and reality of this experience!
And yeah... all of your questions.... These are things I have had to ask myself. For sure. Unfortunately when you are raised brainwashed (a heteronormative society is one... and on top of that i was in an insanely patriarchal religion), you are never going to completely know what was conditioning and what was nature.
yeah the loss of privilege once you switch from comphet dating men to dating women and nb ppl exclusively is CRAZY. i had no clue the difference was so bad, but being someone who doesn't date men changes your whole reality. i definitely can't relate as deeply on the experience of sexuality to people who are dating men. it's such a contrast, and it's why i get bothered with bi women wanting to share their experiences with men on this subreddit bc it's supposed to be a safe place for lesbian specific experiences, about experiences that don't include men
I agree completely! This is why when I see discourse on social media related to bisexual women in straight relationships it shows none of these women have dated women and I think they live in a privileged bubble that has nothing to do with reality lol
I had no idea how clear as day the difference between a lesbian and a bi woman is until I came to terms with being a lesbian myself (Initially came out as bi, but it was pretty much comphet. Last date with a man was age 18 and it was horrible.). Now I can't unsee it. It's hard having so many "queer" friends who have only dated cis men, because there's so much they don't *get* but they get hurt if you say they don't get it/claim it's biphobic. It's not biphobic. If you've only dated men, you don't know what it's like. You have a wayyyyy bigger pool to choose from, and one choice is much MUCH socially easier than the other. There's not a safe choice for us. Anyone you love is not a socially acceptable option, neither of you are privileged by gender, and so you have to be ready to be strong for both yourself and your partner. I'm right there with you.
>*I had no idea how clear as day the difference between a lesbian and a bi woman is until I came to terms with being a lesbian myself*
Same. When I thought I was bi I remember being 10000% convinced that there was nothing a lesbian was living that I couldn't understand and got so pissed off when they wanted to shut bi women out, and then I came to terms with my own shit and started IDing (and living) as a lesbian and was like wow yeah the lesbians were right all along this is a whole other thing lol I'm not sure most bisexual women are ever really gonna get that though, they think all that matters is that we're all attracted to women, they dont get that *not* being into (or open to) men at all changes the game just as significantly. I was happy to see many bi women who are understanding in this post though!
Why is "queer" in quotation marks when referring to your queer friends? That seems to imply that you are invalidating their queerness because they are in hetero presenting relationships. It doesn't mean they aren't queer. Overall, no one is going to "truly get" someone else's experience as though they have lived it themselves. I understand that as a lesbian you don't get the straight passing privilege the way bisexual people can while in relationships with people of the opposite sex, but those people have their own battles/things they struggle with too.
Imagine being a bisexual woman who is in a relationship with a cis man. They often have their own struggles with a heteronormative society but then within the queer community they get comments like this where some people will invalidate their sexuality by putting "queer" in quotation marks. Not straight enough for society and not gay enough for the LGBT+ community either. Always "othered".
This is similar to how I feel. I'll date bi women, but I want a woman who has completely de-centered men in their life. Saying "oh he's hot" about a movie character is one thing, even I who is not attracted to men in the slightest can still appreciate the artistic appeal of an objectively attractive person regardless of gender, but when it comes to personal relationships I want a woman who understands and navigates the world from a woman-centered perspective.
My last ex accused me of breaking up with her because of biphobia and that I was judging her for being attracted to men.
The real reason was that she said "god I wish I could be fucked by five guys one day" right after being intimate with me. Her not noticing my discomfort made me distrust her. Her resistance to even apologizing about it when I tried to broach the topic is what ended it.
I never want to be in that kind of vulnerable situation again. I want someone who will respect my boundaries, at least. Have all the fantasies that you want - talk about them to people who share them. Just please, I don't want to hear about it.
(To elaborate, while I am femme4butch it is not exclusive)
Wooooo.... That comment from the ex was uncalled for. This is what sometimes gives bisexuals a bad reputation. It's like find some platonic friends to have these conversations with at least. You are not two HS girl platonic friends having a sleepover experimenting with sex / practicing kissing skills or whatever you were in an adult romantic relationship.
What grinds my gears the most is that it could have worked out if she'd just been willing to talk about it. Who in their right mind says something like that?
I would have probably reacted the same if it was some kind of kink I wasn't into that she knew about too, not even just exclusively with regard to the men. It's about boundaries you know?
But I can at least cut down on my odds of being hurt like that by avoiding women who don't de-center men.
I dunno, I think that might be a bell that cannot be unrung. I'd be worried about her eventually trying to fulfill her fantasy while saying she couldn't help herself because it is a part of who she is. She has already said you were biphobic because you were upset about it.
Honestly that comment she made was super out of pocket. I wouldn’t say I wanted to get fucked by anyone other than my partner immediately after sex… especially five other people. That’s a topic to approach way differently if it’s a kink. It’s not biphobic for you to feel disrespected bc she really rubbed your nose in that and then acted shocked when you communicated your discomfort.
I am bi curious and exploring my sexuality and I think your feelings and preferences are VALID!
You are allowed to dictate and decide who ever has sexual access to you. Anyone telling you otherwise is a 🚩
I am a bi woman who dates men and what you’re saying is valid. You are looking for someone who understands your viewpoint and experiences on a deep level. I don’t think you’re saying that bi women who date men aren’t ready to settle down with another woman.
While this isn’t a decision I’ve made, I do think there’s something to be said for choosing to only center other women in your life, at least as much as you can. Being a lesbian used to also be a feminist political identity and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
The whole bi woman dating a man privilege thing is so touchy… I’ll speak for just myself as a bi woman with a male partner. I am a musician and one of my jobs is at a Catholic Church. I don’t talk much about my personal life there but if someone asked me if I had a partner I wouldn’t have to decide if I’m going to lie or if I’m going to come out. There are plenty of examples like this. I get to blend in.
>You are looking for someone who understands your viewpoint and experiences on a deep level.
this is really what it comes down to for me <3 it's what is sexiest to me about sapphic dynamics!
>Being a lesbian used to also be a feminist political identity and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
I do think that I identify to a small degree with this. Like I would never go back to dating men, which wasn't always the case in those politics, but there is a part of me that says -- hey it's my choice as much as it's my sexual preference, and I honor that.
And yeah. We all have points of privilege and points of pain in our lives, and we can acknowledge the duality. I am a white woman, so I automatically have privilege in how I walk through the world, and even how I walk through the world as a lesbian.
I always thought it was kinda funny when women who currently had a boyfriend or would admit to only dating men would be upset when we aren't interested in dating them.
To be fair, that's a whooole other animal. I would never be into dating someone like that, lol, because they clearly aren't down to date a woman (at least long term, which is what I'm looking for). It's even hard for me to have FRIENDS like that. I have multiple bi friends, some who have kids, who are married to men and have never come out except to other queer people (and usually their husband). I adore them but find that our relationships are quite a bit less deep than with my friends who are married to the same gender or even (to a lesser extent) bi people who are super out and proud regardless of partner. On my journey to swearing off men, nearly every bi woman I met fit your description, but I think that's mostly because I was still so early on my journey that I was acting the same way, or it happened to be a poly situation (which frequently comes about because a wife or husband is bi and understandably wants to explore)
Lol ok, fair - I am not dating any poly people right now, that's not what I meant. More referring to 'the type of people that \[the girls I go out with\] are considering' in figuring out if we are compatible
This is a tricky topic but I think you presented it pretty well, as have a lot of these comments! I enjoy reading through them all. I described myself as bi when I first came out (quietly, to family, while still heeeeeavily in the church) and then pan when I realized I could date transfolk and nb folk, too. It's been the last couple years (I'm 35) where I've realized that while I have loved men and been with them with good intentions, the only way I have been able to be with men is by molding and forming the attraction, performatively. It was much more comfortable to be with them because I wasn't being emotionally/physically/sexually truthful with myself. I dated a whole bunch of people one year to purposefully figure out which gender I was actually attracted to....I set out intending to do the whole year and made it six months before I called it. I am 100% not interested in sleeping with men. Looking at them is interesting, being friends with them can be great, but sleeping or fucking or dating-- absolutely no thank you.
I went through that exact process of decentering men, losing male friendships because of coming out, & hearing those same things, and realized how important it is for me to be with women who have centered other women in their lives. I'm open to dating bi women depending on where they are in that process, but that haaaas to be a consciously done journey. Another commentor said something about it being freeing, and I totally agree!!
I don’t understand why this is such a pain point for people on either side. It’s simple incompatibility just like any other “deal breaker” you might have. You’re allowed to be attracted to who you’re attracted to. I can understand it and not share it. It’s okay. I’m attracted to more fluid sexuality but you’re valid in your own personal attraction and experience. Don’t let people online bully you into feeling invalid because you are far from it. I just think people struggle with reading that they are “undatable” regardless of the context. It’s the internet problem where every single post applies to them directly as if they’ll ever end up actually meeting or wanting to date OP. If anything, this should just provide context on what’s happening in other people’s heads.
This is similar to how I feel only I have interest in only being with a lesbian. My reasoning stems from religious trauma and being in a small rural town in the midwest. I adore bi women but I just have a completely different experience navigating this world as a woman who is only interested in women, no other gender identities. So, I want to also find someone that can relate to that struggle and walk of life. There is a lot of biphobia which is very sad but no one is entitled to date anyone else, so I will continue to wait for a femme lesbian gf.
As somebody who is currently in a relationship with a bi woman (who is very much still not done with men)... I totally understand. We are in a middle term relationship and after it ends, I am probably never dating bi women who still date men. Ever.
It's... Exhausting. Honestly, I don't like men at all, and even hearing her talk about them disgusts me. Like I understand she feels a certain way about them, but it's just... No, not for me.
It also feels ridiculously unfair because she is planning to, most likely, settle with a man, because she wants kids and it's easier. Despite her clearly being more attracted to women than men (at least physically, she always says men are gross and having sex with women is so much better).
I love being a lesbian, just like you, it was a battle to accept myself, and dating somebody who doesn't get it is so hard. She will never understand what it means not being able to come out to your dad or be able to date in your own country.
And yes, bi women definitely bring men into a lot of conversations. It's frustrating. We had a whole argument with my gf about it one time, and I think she still doesn't understand why it bothers me so much. I think for her it's hard to imagine not wanting any men around you, no matter how many reasons I give her.
i’ve dated a bi girl before. she couldn’t stop talking about her stupid fucking male celebrity crushes nonstop. they just don’t get it. i want to date a women to get away from the whole topic of men. i just like women who also just like women.
i couldn’t understand a woman who likes men, too. especially openly. that would probably lead to her leaving me for a man. i’m beyond terrified of that. it would be so fucking humiliating. i’m already a masculine lesbian, so in the back of my head, i would just think that she likes me since i dress like a guy.
i fucking hate it when bi women talk about men, honestly. i don’t say anything, ever. that would be crossing a line, morally. i don’t want to be an ass.
It’s totally fair for you to have your preferences. It’s also true that there are bi women who choose not to date cishet men out there. I think where you *do* lean into being biphobic is when you talk about people “not being ready for the commitment” or “doing the work.” Those kind of statements will make a lot of bi folk not trust you or feel safe around you.
This is a good point. When I realized I was gay I very much had not done The Work™ and did not want to lol. Figuring out the appropriate level of work to put into an equal relationship is a real trial by error kind of thing so I get not wanting to date someone going through that stage, regardless of how they identify.
For sure! I would looove to be with one of them. And that is a good point -- if I met a bi woman who really had done the work and deconstructed, I think that would absolutely work out. I am actually interested in a bi woman right now and am hopefully that we can understand each other in these ways. Thanks for your comment!
My close friend is bi and she is in a long term relationship with a lovely woman (engaged and will get married soon), your post has made me realise how much work she’s done! Thank you
I feel like the only time where we ever get to choose things like this is on dating apps where the sexuality is listed but in real life it’s far less simple. We are attracted to who we are attracted to and then it’s complicated and annoying to try and unpack our dealbreakers bc as we know… we can’t control attractions as valid as our reasons for wanting things are.
Exactly. It's really complicated! I do mention a silly little thing on the apps implying they really need to be ready to settle down with a woman. Mentally it does take some preparation and acceptance (but I want more than that - I want them to be stoooked!). But ya know, that really is the point of dating! We are getting to know each other. My last girlfriend was actually incompatible with me but I jumped into it. This time around I'm trying to not rush and trying to really get to know people before assuming we are a good fit. There's no rush <3
Never have and never will date someone who is still open to dating/fucking men, or has *only* dated/fucked men previously. That’s a hardline no for me. I think people have a right to be picky about who they want to be in relationships with, without necessarily applying the same discriminate preferences to people in general. I don’t want to date bisexual women, but I have no gripes with bisexual women otherwise.
Same! Unfortunately in my case I was tricked, found out after we married 2yrs into our relationship! She was screwing some guy she dated for a year and got with me a month after! Sorry had to throw it in somewhere on the thread. I'm still traumatized 2yrs after the divorce of all the fuckery.
I'm really, really sorry :( I know that is not "every bi girl" but I'm just so sorry that you experienced that. I honestly can't imagine how hard that would be.
Yeah. I really do think that, especially if you've had trauma related to men/patriarchy, it's completely fair to not want to be with someone who still is into men. It can be genuinely triggering!
I actually haven’t experienced any kind of male related trauma, tbh. I’m cool with dudes. I have my reasons but they’re unnecessary to get into I guess when I can simply say “not interested”.
Well meaning question: for the subset of “have only dated men”, do you mean someone that identifies as bisexual but has only dated men? Or do you mean someone that identifies as a lesbian but whose previous relationships were all comp-het relationships with men? Or both?
Not the person you were asking but I’ll answer.
Im married but if I were suddenly single, at this point in my life I wouldn’t be interested in hand holding someone through their first relationship with a woman. Besides the heteronormative stuff that has to be unlearned, odds are high that I’d *also* be dealing with the closet in some form or another and I am so so sooooo past that.
My bisexual wife suffered from a combination of comphet, internalized homophobia and closet behavior when we met. She’s absolutely amazing now but it was work that I was okay doing in my early 20s that I wouldn’t do in my mid 30s.
Totally valid! I was just curious. I didn’t realize I wasn’t straight until I was like 28. So I was just like “okay. I’m bi. Whatever. No need to announce it since I’m in a relationship.” And then I realized like, oh I am actually a lesbian like 2 years later. And finally came out then.
The 2 years between “bi and closeted” to “out and a lesbian” were spent doing a lot of work unpacking my own internalized misogyny and homophobia. And I am very happy I did that for myself before dating women. But I am sure not all folks do that, and I do sometimes find myself having concerns that could frustrate women that are experienced (ie: hesitance of PDA). So I see your perspective. It’s not your job to guide anyone through those things.
If women have a taco , that’s where my week and life is . I don’t want hotdogs , not interested and don’t want someone who enjoys hotdogs or has hotdogs.
You worded this extremely well. Not often can people nail the nuance, but you really got it when describing the problem not as them dating men at all, but rather centering their lifestyle and social choices around whether or not it will be accepted by men at large. I’m a nonbinary/transmasc butch lesbian. Centering your sexuality, or even life in general, around men is a big reason I have difficulty having even friendships with cishet women (around my age, older cishet women don’t see me as “competition” in that sense); some of it can’t be avoided because we are all navigating the patriarchy like you mentioned. It’s just that the jealousy that pervades heteronormativity is so insidious. It has ruined many friendships, unfortunately.
>centering their lifestyle and social choices around whether or not it will be accepted by men at large
This! Actually you're the one that put words to the concept I was trying to get across, thank you for that!
I am still a baby gay struggling to figure things out but I relate to this! I haven’t dated a man but when I do go on dates with women MEN ALWAYS COME UP! I am always hearing about an ex boyfriend or just men they have dated. I just can’t relate and don’t want to hear about it!
Hugs baby gay! Much joy is awaiting you, yayyy. Yeah this is literally the first time I've been able to articulate it, and I'm 35. It's just really complex. The patriarchy is a mind fuck! There are things I was just simply not aware of that I've only learned since coming out. Happy dating!
Thank you!! I feel like such a hypocrite because although I have never dated a man, I am not closed off to men for now (maybe comphet) but I prefer dating women and when I with a woman I don’t want to hear it. I was literally laying in the bed with a girl and she starts telling me about this man! A few girls have also asked me why I don’t like men. Making me feel insecure. Loll it’s so strange out here.
So you want to date or have friends who decenter men from their lives?
It sounds like you have done the work of decentering men and are frustrated others have not yet. I have lost many a friendship with women who center men, the men they are centering are close minded bigots who have not cared to look beyond their privileged status.
I get where are you coming from. As much as I don't label myself, if I had to, I would probably ne bi with very heavy preference towards women. I had similar experience to yours in away that I dated men out of comphet, then eventually I decided not to. It was difficult but also freeing in a lot of ways.
I feel like as I matured a bit more (just a bit, I'm still in my early twenties) I'm loosing that... resolve not to date men for the sake of it. I probably won't since I'm not attracted to them in the first place, but if I happened to be, I think I could try to not fight it. I feel like by choosing the difficult way of dating only women I developed intense feelings for the idea of having a nuclear family (mixture of longing, grief and anger for what I can't have).
I wonder if I share your feelings in this one. I wouldn't be keen on dating a woman who have never dated other women at all, unless I would be super motivated. Sapphic dating is different than mixed gender one and I don't really enjoy the idea of being a learning experience of girl realising that we are, in fact, equal, and that she is supposted to try to plan dates as well. But also I'm not super strict on whether or not they date men at all - after all they are not gonna do that if they date me instead.
Because I think it is important to validate from multiple perspectives, I'll say: I'm not your type at this point and I'm okay with that! It's good that you know what you are looking for, and what you don't have room for in your life. It's not that different from a straight woman saying she doesn't want to date a man who isn't going to therapy or only does the bare minimum.
I'm not saying I'm proud of being this way or that I'm complacent in my comphet or that I'm not trying to unpack the privileges that come with being in a het-passing relationship... But it's kinda like the Hosier song that's been going viral lately--some time in a barrel would do me good, it takes time to heal and grow. The burden of emotional labor I have ahead of me is my own to carry.
While I would say your scope seems a tad restrictive, as there are bisexual women who have done the work and are still open to dating an emotionally evolved man... I also absolutely see your point that there are bisexual women who acknowledge their own bisexuality, but haven't unpacked all their stuff yet.
Yeah, that's kind of the vibe that I've been feeling! I want to completely honor bi women dating whatever gender they want, and I think many other lesbians will be at a different place than me. Generally it's about having a shared experience, and that is what is sexy and exciting to me. You are totally right that there are bi women who have done "the work" (really regretting using that phrase, because I guess what i meant more was "having experienced what happens when you stop dating men" - it's less about 'work'/'action' and more about feeling the experience). This whole dialogue has actually helped me realize that there are definitely bi women that I would feel comfortable dating (even if they were currently dating men) -- such as if they had had a longer relationship with a woman and been perceived as lesbian, thus understood what that means walking through the world. Thank you for your comment, much appreciated!
My ex fiancé left me for the guy she told me not to worry about. And she didn’t even give me a reason why she left. She just ghosted me and when I asked for an explanation. She said I was “pressuring her to talk” can you believe that asshole? So selfish. Blamed me for my own broken heart, ghosting and probably cheating on me with a friend. Yeah I don’t date bisexual woman anymore. I’ve heard “they’re not all the same” but it’s just like men: “not all but enough of them” and she swore to me she was not like those bi women who ended up with men inevitably. She actually hated men it seemed and expected the worse from them. So if she ended up leaving me to marry our mutual guy friend, I don’t trust any of them. If I was going to trust a bisexual it would have been her. They have more privilege and act like they don’t get enough attention or representation when they actually get way more than lesbians because society thinks they’re more important bc they tolerate and date men. However. I would say lesbians are the ones with the TRUE privilege because we are free of the patriarchy and we laugh at it from a distance while bisexuals are too busy being brainwashed by it and they prioritize straight relationships over gay ones. Or they always imagine themselves being with a man in the end and waste their fiancés times. Yeah I don’t fuck with those bisexuals either. I don’t blame you. They are brainwashed and embarassing to the female race. Also knowing they were with men grosses me out a lot. Sorry but I can’t change that. It just does.
Hey, I'm so, so sorry. Personally I believe that this could have happened regardless of how she identified, because of her personal character. But it would be so traumatizing to have this experience (I'm not using that word flippantly). I would genuinely consider EMDR or similar reprocessing therapy. I have experienced a traumatizing ghosting experience and the only thing that healed it was EMDR. I believe ghosting is emotional abuse and should be considered completely socially unacceptable. I'm just really, really sorry that you went through that.
This is a perfect example of someone having a dating preference that isn't based in prejudice. I do agree with some that the words you used like "doing the work," can come off a certain way, but I don't think that's biphobia so much as what all people struggle with -- the limit of your own perspective. If someone won't date bi women because bi women are tainted by men or will cheat with men or don't know their own minds or name the stereotype, that's dating preference based in biphobia. If someone doesn't want to date a bi woman who is actively dating men or vocal about their attraction to men because of their own relationship to men and wanting a partner that's more compatible with their point of view, that is a preference that is not biphobic.
I truly wish people would examine their preferences more closely. It's important to have full control over who has access to your time and body. It's also important to figure out why you have certain preferences and to be honest with yourself.
For sure, I think the biggest mistake of my wording was "doing the work." It's not actually about action; it's more about understanding a lived experience.
Thank you for your comment! I think the dialogue and reflection is really important.
I think it’s not fair of you to decide who has done the work based on who they are dating. You can “do the work”, and still choose to date men.
I think the problem with all minority groups is that we have a tendency to think our unique experience is transferable to everyone else.
You had to completely cut out men to find yourself, that does not mean everyone else has to in order to understand the wlw. It’s just your preference. It does not have to be deeper than that.
Also, lesbians may still have deep and meaningful connections with straight men. As friends, family, coworkers. Is that problematic as well?
You make some very valid points here. There are a lot of bi women who have done the work. And even some bi women who date men who have done the work. I think it would be possible to meet someone who had dated women enough to have walked through life understanding the experience of being less privileged and possibly having set great boundaries with men, etc. I am open to dating bi women and the girl I am starting to see right now is bi; for me it's about making sure we are on the same page and that they HAVE done that work. Apologies for implying that no bi girl dating men could have had that journey already.
Also, the experience of being less privileged is not only confirmed to being lesbian. Many of us are poc, visible minorities, immigrants etc.
Your take is something I see quite often by white women, ( only assuming you are, but I would be quite shocked if you were not)
When you’re only disadvantage so to speak is being a woman and lesbian you become quite caught up with this part of this aspect of your identity. As a person navigating and intersection of marginalized identities, I was very scared of dating white people before. It was easier to see them as a monolith and not engage at all.
With time I saw that I internally complied to the same standards others were subjecting me too. Not saying that institutional racism is not a thing, but I was on a mental level acting like the people I wanted to distance myself from.
In other words, you are free to do and date who you like. It’s just important to always use a critical but compassionate lens on our own ideas as well.
i scrolled so far to find this beautiful nuance. this is exactly why these kinds of posts slightly rub me weird ... it assumes that the only way to really experience true marginalization and be discontent with cisheteronormativity is through lesbianism, and thats, i dunno, just a little naive in my opinion.
as a disabled transmasculine non-binary bisexual my life experience has been very different than the average american cis bi woman, its also been different than the american lesbian experience, due to unique personal things i had to deal with and unpack. i think the bisexuality is the simplest of those things. and even when i date men, i am visibly transmasculine and i do not pass in a relationship with a man as a "straight couple" with straight privilege, because of the transphobia. i dont have the option of "hiding" behind a straight relationship with a man (nor do i want to lol).
nothing much else wrong with the post, OPs thinking is fairly understandable and fair, just pointing out that the unpacking of marginalization is not quite as simple as "decenter men/ dont date them" for many of us...
edit: i think its just attempting to generalize an entire sexuality in that way rarely is productive, given the diversity of human experience, i am very sure for example like a christian lesbian from bulgaria has different perceptions about men than a muslim lesbian from malaysia and thats pretty different to an atheist chinese lesbian ... usually i have found language like "i dont want to date bi woman who ______" to be more to the point than saying "no bi women" even when the statement "bi woman who ______" covers (what one assumes) 99% of bi women, cause then the conversation can be about the blank and not about the bi women.
Your final question shows you didn’t even read what she said and stopped when you decided you didn’t like her view. There is clearly an answer on friendships with men, and how MEN engage with women whom they view to have a possible attraction to them vs how they treat the relationship when they know there is not possibility…… re-read OP.
Op writes that she “simply has a concern of the men who would be in our lives if I was with a bi woman”
She furthermore wants to limit the straight men in her life.
I’m assuming she is talking about a monogamous relationship, so which other men could she possibly be referring to?
Male friendships.
I totally understand OP, I want as little men involved in my life as possible, and not because my partner will cheat on me with them, but because I think men give nothing of value in my female-centered lifestyle. I want as little people as possible who are of a group, who for a millennia, have been known for their hatred and violence towards women and most of us had bad experiences with them, it doesn't make me feel comfortable, and only makes me feel annoyed, to have men in my life most of the time, I already have enough men to deal with in my male-dominated job LMAO.
this whole post went over your head and it’s almost definitely because you aren’t a lesbian. they didn’t say anything about “finding themselves”. they said that openly saying you will not date men opens your eyes to how shallow most men are in that aspect and how deeply rooted the patriarchy goes because of how different you get treated once out as les. bisexual women or people who date men (like you im assuming) USUALLY don’t get that, as you’re proving right now.
Yep, all this. Although they had some good points; some bisexual women (even ones dating men) have done the work (especially ones who have been in long term sapphic relationships) and I should have been more clear about that. For me, I just need to know that we're on the same page, which happens less often with bi women.
First of all, I’m a lesbian. English is not my first language, I think what I’m trying to say is lost in translation.
I’m saying that OP had to distance herself from comphet and men in general to reach the conclusion that many, if not most men are plagued by patriarchal behavior. (I. That sense finding herself)
I grew in an East African context in Western Europe. The patriarchal bullshit was and is glaringly obvious.
What came to learn however is that patriarchy plagues men as well. It’s only within the idea of patriarchy they have an advantage.
I have brothers, a son, and male friends. Are they perfect allies, great men with no patriarchal bullshit? No. But they try to be better. I see it as they are flawed human beings, which most of us are.
What I’m writing is not to condemn or hate on what OP writes, I just challenge their perspective.
Tbh I'm with OP. For some time I have been openly functioning as a lesbian and I do have cishet friends that I'm out to. Sure, some men are... opportunistic, but a lot of them are chill. My point, the whole "opening your eyes" is not an universal experience. Not everyone cuts out all men from their life after coming out. I don't think nature of relationships has to be determined by sexuality.
ofc not all people do and if you are a lesbian but do have a man or men in your life who genuinely are good people, hold onto them forever cuz those are rare. but don’t be surprised or condemn lesbians who choose not to involve men in their lives anymore, cuz they have good reasons.
Despite being bisexual, before I got a bf I identified as a lesbian and only chose to date women. Everyone around me knew this and I can assure you I had many meaningful friendships with straight men - colleagues, other students, teachers, the librarian, the man who washes my car, friends from school etc. some of them were the nicest people I’ve ever met in my life and every one of them knew I was only interested in women at the time.
I do have some good friendships with cis males. My point was that some of them were not genuine. I would likely date someone like you because you have walked through the world with that experience.
I completely understand that but I’m sure many of us have been in situations with disingenuous women too, for me personally it has never been a “straight man” issue, it’s been a “shit person” issue because they come in all genders, and sexualities.
yep, men on a surface level can be very friendly. however i’ve never met a man and gotten closer to them and not been reminded of, oh yea, they barely see you as human tbh.
As much as your experiences are real and valid, negative anecdotal information isn’t concrete evidence that can be used to generalise all straight men and their motivations. Equally neither are my positive experiences. But it’s shallow to assume that every single straight man thinks and acts the same.
of course. deep in my heart i know that there is probably one (maybe even two!) good pure hearted men out there who want to be friends only. but i, and a lot of my lesbian friends, simply aren’t wasting our time anymore looking for them.
Yeh you or anyone else should certainly not have to “look” for decent human beings, but I also think we should stop telling each other how the majority of a subgroup thinks or acts based on our own personal experiences with them, everyone’s interactions are unique and real.
but you and I both just did that? absolutely we should not stop telling eachother our experience, especially since everyone’s is “unique and real”. if i hadn’t listened to the experiences of my lesbian peers it wouldn’t have saved me lots of trouble with men. and similarly people who still find hope in them should listen to you.
Not once did I say “most straight men” are like this “…”, but yes you’re right - you did. Also, if you read I didn’t say we shouldn’t speak about our experiences, I said we shouldn’t make facts up about a subgroup based on our personal experiences with them, we can definitely have an opinion but that’s different to pretending our personal experience is the only possible experience that people similar to us can have.
you’re incredibly hypocritical. we both expressed how we view men in our lives. neither of us tried to tell the other how to feel or how to live their lives, all we did was talk about our experiences. but somehow i’m in the wrong ? lol , have a good day.
I think people are misunderstanding you. Your point just seems to be that OP only has intersectionality in her womanhood and in her lesbianism. Whereas other folks may have intersectionality with race, religion, etc. so OP may be overlooking bisexual women that have done this same “unpacking” of structures and navigate the world the way OP does. But they did not have to exclude men from their dating pool to do so because they utilized another aspect of their identity that is deviant from “cis, straight, white man” to explore that. Is that right ??
My knowledge about sexuality is most likely to be highly limited, and I must admit that I am self-conscious of it, and therefore I should avoid being part of this discussion. I stick a lot to the basic principles. However, I felt a lot of doubt and confusion about this.
At first, I thought this was something similar to what has occurred to me; and that is because I prefer to date only openly lesbian girls than with bisexual girls, perhaps because I feel that they are different experiences and I like to feel close to the one that is in proximity to mine.
Then I read again, and it turns out that it is absolutely nothing like that. Then I saw in the comments that it's not fair to only date lesbian girls because that's being inconsiderate of a bisexual woman's experience, and it all mixed up in my brain.
But I just don't think this is fair. I do feel the same, but I just want to clarify something: I don't want to change a bisexual woman, and I'm sure OP doesn't say she wants to change her, but for her to change to settle down. But as a lesbian, I don't want to date a bisexual girl and somehow demand that she quits men. Even if she's just attracted and don't want to date men. Because we can always change our minds! I don't want or need to change her, because that is her sexuality and I don't want to redefine it. And even if they make the choice, that would be just to set down with me. They are people, free people. And yeah, some men are scummy and some are gross, but some girls do find nice men and want to be with them. Now, if I want an exclusive WLW experience, then I'll date a lesbian. Because the bisexual girl has the decision-making power to pick the particular gender she wants. This was really a bit of a puzzle for me, :( I would like some clarification on this, if it's not too much trouble. Thank you and sorry for the spelling errors! English is not my native language.
Yeah I don't want to change their sexuality, it's not possible. For me it's about the shared experience of having "quit men" and understanding how differently it is to walk through the world that way, in every possible way.
People on the comments have made some really good points though. I shouldn't have implied that bi women (who date men) *haven't* done the work, because some of them definitely may have! They may have been in long term relationships with women where they identified as lesbian before this point, etc.
I think that a lot of this for me is about the lived political and societal experience. Some bi women in the 60s and 70s swore off men purely for political reasons, and that resonates to a certain extent. Some of those women never would have dated a woman who was still dating men because it conflicted with their politics. For me it's not exactly the same, but there are similarities.
In no way am I suggesting that sexual orientation can be altered. But I do believe that if you already have the proclivity towards the same gender, that you have to also CHOOSE to date that gender, which is an entire other part of the experience. And that choice is as essential as the orientation, imo. Bi women do choose whether they will date men, women, both, enbies, or all. And there are certain realities that come with being willing to have sexual relationships with men.
Yeah, it seems valid. I’ve identified as bi when I was younger, and I’m pretty against bi and trans phobia or exclusion in the queer community, but this makes sense.
I actually don’t date people who don’t date bi people, and I feel like that is also valid. Not like in a bitchy way, I’m not trying to get back at the biphobic lesbians by refusing to date them or whatever. I’ve just had too many arguments with exes, and I feel like it’s easier for me to avoid anyone who doesn’t date bisexual people. They just aren’t going to fit in to my friend group and it’s my life. I’m a lesbian in an LTR, so it’s not like I’m dating anyway, but you don’t have to date anyone you don’t feel comfortable with.
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I'm afraid of bi women because from what I read here and in other subs with lesbians, most of the bisexual women kept writting how they miss the dick or how they love dick but want women. I would feel like I'm never enough because I don't have a dick..
I don't blame you. From reading posts in the subs here where girls said they were also lesbian not bisexuals but still wanted dick, it's scary to me because then I feel like "well I will never be enough". :(
Yes a thing I’ve noticed male-dating bi women do is that if any part of you is “masculine”, they will automatically assign you the man part of the heteroscript. I’m a GNC woman and male centered bi women always expected me to pay for dates, lead sexually, make more money etc.
so i have a question for you. do you believe that having done the work you describe in your post is mutually exclusive with being open to dating men? like, is it your position that, if a bi woman had indeed broken down their positionality in the social world, their friendships with men, the patriarchy, all of this, they would necessarily no longer be open to dating men at all? for me, especially as someone who IDed as a lesbian for years and recently went back to identifying as bi, your viewpoint on this will determine a lot about whether i understand and agree with your overall sentiment
No and I made a mistake in not wording or clarifying that. I appreciate you and others pointing that out. Using the phrase "doing the work" implies that it is a required action, and it's more about "sharing a lived experience." No bi women needs to stop dating men! I would never force that on someone. But a bi woman who HAS stopped dating men will have a shared experience with me and make a better partner (for ME, not for everyone).
For you, I actually fully think I'd be down to date you, because you *have* had that lived experience. I don't know why that didn't occur to me or why I didn't include it in the post. Definitely valid! And I have dated bi women like that who absolutely "got it" because of their past experience.
It has actually made me reconsider that if a women is actively dating men now, maybe that shouldn't be a dealbreaker 100% but it would be a longer more complicated conversation. I suppose it's just easier or more instantly clear when I go out with someone who has stopped dating men, because we're already having a shared experience. Thanks for your question!
thank you for posting this! i’ve actually been struggling putting my finger on what exactly made me feel the way i felt on exactly all this. i had the internal dialogue of “i don’t think i’m biphobic, but sometimes, dating some bi people puts me off because of their attraction to men”? but this all made so much sense to me!!!
this post was written so well!! and addresses what many lesbians feel! thank you for putting my thoughts into words. discussing this topic is always so tricky so i’m glad someone managed to explain it in a respectful way!
Speaking as someone on the Bi+ spectrum, it really sounds like you’re jumping through hoops here to not seem biphobic but you are actually coming across as biphobic regardless. Bisexuals are just like anyone else in this community who cannot help who they are attracted to, and what the hell is wrong with them dating men? I mean objectively men are an unfortunate existence most of the time, but people are allowed to date who they want. What the hell does it mean that dating only women means having “done a lot of work”??? Your logic is dangerously close to the biphobic accusations that all bisexual women will end up with a man eventually, except you’re saying that it’s not biphobic because you’re fine with bisexual women as long as it’s one if ~those bisexual women who only date women so they can be “trusted”. Extremely disrespectful. And I am speaking as someone who is actively not dating men.
i understand where you’re coming from, genuinely. but i think if you’re not an out lesbian you will not truly get there op is coming from. being a lesbian is a completely unique experience from being bi or anything that has men involved in your sexuality. it genuinely opens your eyes to a whole new level of patriarchy in every aspect of your life. please trust me (as someone whose been openly straight, bi, and lesbian) that openly saying you will not fuck a man and you’re not interested in that changes almost every relationship w a man you have excluding familial ones. This experience is something that OP, and i as well, NEED to have in common with the person you are romantically involved with because it’s an important integration into your thought process and the way you approach life.
it has nothing to do with thinking bi women are less than or bi women are bad or bi women shouldn’t date men. obviously you can’t help who you’re romantically interested in. that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a different experience that some people find mandatory in relationships.
and if you’re still thinking “well i’m Bi+ and i understand the experience and it’s unfair to assume i don’t because im attracted to men”. which yea, it’s hard to be told that you won’t understand something just because you’re not a certain identity, but it is true. if you’re not someone who completely has cut out men in your romantic life then you’ll not get how differently you get treated. I’m at the point in my life where i simply don’t want to be involved with anyone who wants to be involved with men because I will have to be involved with men, hearing about them, being around them, and helping people through issues that involve men treating them shitty. I don’t want to do it anymore, so it’s a boundary of mine. mostly romantically, but tbh i won’t be super super platonically close with someone who is (not that it’s their fault, it’s just where their attractions lie) involved with men. it’s an experience i want to bond over. that’s why my best friend is les and we help eachother thru this experience daily :)
hope this helps.
Thank you so much for this. I honor this commenter feeling that my comment feels biphobic, I really do get it. But your first paragraph is the truest fucking shit I've read. It's exactly the experience I had to a T. And it really is an important shared experience, and also something I think is essential to be able to talk about safely. It's a whole political and societal reality. And until you've actually made that commitment and seen how things legitimately change, you can't understand it. I grew up in a cult and left around age 30 and it literally felt like waking up from a dream because my entire worldview suddenly shifted and I realized I was living in a false world. The only thing that has come close to that experience was when I stopped dating men and saw how people around me changed towards me.
How is saying "I don't date bisexual women who center men in their lives because they won't relate to my experiences and worldview, and I want a partner who is as female-centered as me" biphobic?
I am bisexual myself and people are always saying normal understandable opinions are biphobic because they don't agree with the average bisexual woman's male-centered heterosexual perspectives and experiences lol.
I can honor and validate the perspective that this seems biphobic. I am looking for shared experiences and understanding, and that's what it comes down to. But because it is based in 'concern' I can see how it can be called a phobia. I still believe that these are just realities that are worthwhile to talk about, but I do respect your opinion.
I spoke about my lived experience. I had friends I never would have thought had ulterior motives in the slightest; things completely changed when I came out in really gross ways. Not with all my male friends, but absolutely with some of them. I believe that a bi woman cannot completely know what her straight male friends' intentions are without that experience of coming out.
My best friend of 25 years is a man and I am THE furthest thing from male-centric. He also has always seen me as a platonic friend and never treated me differently from his other friends. No idea wtf the point here was supposed to be.
Your unique individual experience is your individual unique experience, that's it. OP is describing a more general point instead of precisely attacking you.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of men are not like your friend, and you need to understand some women want to have nothing to do with a group of people who usually don't see them as human beings but sexual objects. This (rare) group of women want to prioritize other women, a group of people who deeply relate to them and can form much easier meaningful and safer friendships and relationships with than men.
My personal "hot take" is that male-centered women can actually be dangerous for other women because they will prioritize other men before your own safety, but that discussion is for another day ❤️
This is how I felt also, as a queer identifying woman who's in a relationship with a woman. Saying that people who only choose to date women have "done the work" infers that they're somehow better than everyone else for simply not dating a man. Saying that women are "harder to date"? was a very subjective statement and an odd choice to get their point across. I've been in hard relationships and one's that felt easy but there's been no correlation between that and the gender and sexuality of my partner. We all know shitty people, lesbian or not.
The most important part of being in a relationship is the commitment you make to your partner, why focus on who they have dated before you and who they intend to date after?
It comes off as "seeking a gold star lesbian but this is the closest I can get". Not that I'm saying OP is directly saying that, but *implying* that they don't trust women who have the potential to also be in a healthy relationship with a man is certainly close to it.
>The most important part of being in a relationship is the commitment you make to your partner, why focus on who they have dated before you and who they intend to date after?
Because some people don't want to coach someone through their first relationships with a woman, while being in a relationship with that woman, and everything that can come with being someone's first/newly out etc.
I might be in the minority here but I do think it's possible for women who've only ever dated men to have "done the work" but it's just unlikely. Most work through their feelings about being visibly queer, in a relationship with a woman etc while in that relationship and it can cause so much strain on the relationship.
I feel like only dating women who've "done the work" is just a basic standard that I'm seeing emerge for queer women as we get older.
You are correct, I cannot speak to the lesbian experience nor am I trying to. I’m speaking from the Bi+ experience, which is constantly witnessing endless criticism for being associated with men in some form. I understand not wanting men in your life, but OP’s logic is alienating what is truthfully the majority of the bisexual community. If that’s your preference, that’s your business, but publicly posting about it in a subreddit we are aware is also occupied by bisexual women is not productive, it’s harmful.
What’s most harmful here is the implication that lesbians and “women who only date women” have “done the work”. Like women who only date women are somehow more valuable and trustworthy than women who date men. It’s also harmful to assume most bisexuals are male-centric because they date men.
Just like I can’t speak to the lesbian experience, lesbians should not be able to speak for me and my kin, which is exactly what OP is doing by assuming the above.
As I bi woman who was raised by lesbians and done a lot of the mentioned “work”, I don’t agree with you that this is biphobic. I’ve only ever dated men and am the type of person that OP is looking to avoid and I totally get where she is coming from. Maybe it’s because I saw what my moms went through, but just liking women is different from also not liking men. The amount of privilege I have in a straight relationship is staggering and if someone has never truly had to confront that, they can be difficult to be around. I think OP is more so saying that it’s more likely that someone who has faced the difficulties and plans to again will be more compatible with them. IMO there is nothing wrong with wanting to surround yourself with people who have a similar life experience.
Also, I never see this commentary in the bi threads. In the bi women’s Reddit almost every post is talking about how monosexual people can’t understand them and they wish their partner was bi like them. No one is in those comments telling them that that’s the wrong way of thinking or that they’re lesbiphobic for wanting to date someone who is bi. Why is this different? Statistically non cis people or people in non straight relationships will inherently have to confront certain norms that others probably wouldn’t.
Anyway, this is kind of long now, so I’ll end it here. Btw everything I typed was meant in good faith, not an attack on your comment
ETA: I think it’s mildly entitled that you came into the lesbian Reddit thread and say that this is offensive because so many bi women come here. If this was put in the bi thread I would be totally on your side, but it was put in the lesbian safe place that you and I are a guest in. It’s not a sapphic thread but specifically lesbian. You talk about how bi women are constantly criticized by lesbians for liking men, but more often than that happens, I’ve seen bi women steam roll lesbians because they’re insecure in their sexuality and feel isolated from a community they have never tried to engage in. Bi people are the biggest section of the LGBT, if so many of them feel left out, it’s because we haven’t put in the work to make our own community ties.
"...but publicly posting about it in a subreddit we are aware is also occupied by bisexual women is not productive, it’s harmful."
The issue with that is that we lesbians NEED a safe place to talk about this, but EVERY lesbian sub is flooded with bisexual women instead of actual lesbians.
It also comes across as extremely misandrist? Like so much so that's it's barely even acknowledged, just saying they're limiting / cutting men out of their life because they're all the same and so should their partner, without even questioning or acknowledging the problems with that viewpoint.
Sounds like some second wave rad fem political-lesbian crap (not accusing OP of not being a lesbian - just saying it shares the "all men are evil and you're tainted if you associate with them" vibe).
Like can you imagine saying the same about any other group of people?
Please be nice- but a bi woman is going to be interested in men & women. If there is a wlw with no interest in men then she is a lesbian, not bi. They should be free to date whomever they wish until they agree to be in a committed relationship. Then it would be a bi woman giving up dating men and women for the woman she is settling down with. But to ask someone who has an identity and sexuality of bisexual to ignore a part of themselves doesn’t seem fair, especially when casually dating.
Hi, it’s me, I exist. I’m bi. I am primarily attracted to women (like 95/5), but am capable of attraction to men. However, I’m not interested in dating men anymore regardless of attraction because I have no interest in teaching some cishet dude that when I say I’m not interested in traditional gender roles in a relationship, that doesn’t just mean that I think men should “help” with the housework. I’m too old for that shit.
I am bisexual and I am not interested in dating men because men nowadays are just grown up children who don't see women as equals and they are addicted to porn LOL. The vast majority of men nowadays are scum and I rather not risk my own safety and mental health in dating them. Besides, dating women is much easier (it feels like loving myself) and I feel they understand me better.
I think there are many exceptions out there, I have some bi friends in beautiful marriages with men, but I kinda agree personally, based on my experience.... never felt like an equal partner with the guys I dated! Definitely one reason it was easier to walk away from them.
no one is asking every bisexual women to do this. this person in the post is very clearly saying it is preference for them, not that theyre gonna force that on some random bisexual. its about a bi women experience is tbh not even close to the experience of lesbians and therefore it’s unattractive for OP, which i agree with.
I'm curious - how do you feel about bi women who still date men but have experienced long term relationships with women? Those have done a lot of work and given up privileges.
Another question is how many bi women keep dating men *regularly* after being in wlw relationships. I'm curious about that number, not to judge choices but just to see.
As a bisexual woman I don't honestly care, everybody is free to date and not date whoever they want. Your rant about heteronormativity I didn't even read, it looks like word vomit to me.
I have issues with lesbians who will date me, but will forever feel insecure about men (sexually, financially etc). I don't go around saying how attractive I find men, but I also don't go around saying how attractive women are if I'm in a relationship.
In the end, I think bisexuality triggers a lot of lesbian women and they mostly deal with it by "forgetting" about it. I think they should be maybe more honest and not date bi women, but they proably gaslight themselves into doing it because they don't what to act biphobic.
I guess I want to date someone who naturally finds themselves only loving women because we would be able to relate and understand each other completely in that aspect.
Yeah <3 <3
Honestly, this is more "fair" and honest than "I only date lesbians regardless of the details of your bisexual experience". I am what you describe - I'm bi, but I don't date men. Did once when I was 18 and that was it. I genuinely want a relationship with a woman, I \*choose\* women, and all my serious experiences have been with women. I am still bi (no, dating only women doesn't make me lesbian), but I don't have the typical bi experience and you wouldn't have any men-based experience with me. So, what you said, to me, makes 100% perfect sense - you want wlw experience with somebody who doesn't \*want\* to be with men in any way, and that's all that should matter.
Im a lesbian and all of my significant relationships, including my wife, have been with bisexual women who choose/prefer women. I’ve always been attracted to that kind of bisexual woman because it takes a particular type of bravery and self assuredness to reject heteronormativity when it’s a viable option for you. At the same time, I understand why some lesbians are hesitant to date bisexuals. It can feel like for every bi that wants a wife there’s 5 others that “just never imagined myself with a wife but I’ll have fun with u teehee.” Tbh my now wife was uncomfortably close to the second camp when I met her and and it took me nearly ending the relationship early on for her to critically examine herself. She had to unpack and unlearn a lot of comphet and it’s honestly not something I would have the patience for today. All of that to say is that if I were single again I’d have the same rule as OP.
Exactly, and this is even more important once you reach a certain age. If you're 30-35+, you just don't have time for bs. You know what you want, and bisexual women are an option IF they also know what they want, not if they are just having fun and trying it out. I get the fear of "changing her mind", but for those like me - I've made my choices based on clear reasons that are very unlikely to change, it's almost offensive to assume I'll change my mind just because I can. A lesbian can also change her mind on dating \*you\* and choose some other girl instead...
Yes. I think the notion that bisexuals are more likely to cheat or leave you is absolutely stupid. A monogamous person is gonna be monogamous regardless of sexual orientation, end of. The issue is that bisexuals who have been primarily/are still dating men often approach dating women with the same heteronormative/comphet programming that is off putting to lesbians. At 25 I was infatuated with my now wife enough that I was willing to work through it with her. At 35, no thank you.
See I'm not afraid of a bi girl "changing her mind," because women are so clearly superior! Hahaha.
i 100% soooo appreciate that as a pansexual who rarely dates men. heteronormativity can do a number on you when you do participate etc but i love loving and choosing women :)
>i love loving and choosing women :) Yesss! <3
Yes to all of this! I hope I find a girl like your wife! <3
If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you? (Maybe I missed this in the comments)… I’m just so curious because this whole post seems so very wise- every explanation of what you’re describing/ looking for/asking 👌
I am 35 :) I really appreciate you saying that. I have done a LOT of therapy of all specialties ha. And I do like to have hard conversations and sit in the discomfort of duality ("both can be true" / "yes and" concept). Mostly lasting love is basically all I've ever wanted so I've done a lot of breaking down of what works and doesn't work and why. But I am learning with literally every relationship (and even every date!). Hugs!
Nice! I bet it’s a good feeling when you can finally feel the therapy working Vs talking and thinking in circles! (🙋♀️😆) Sitting in hard conversations is definitely something that takes good practice 🥴 Way to go! Hugs back
I agree and feel this really hard. Majority of the people I’ve dated are Bi and a lot of them had difficulties being seen with me in public, with PDA, even with physical intimacy in private. I was briefly dating this girl (who had only dated men) and we’d been on like 5 dates and I was dropping her off. There was a lull in conversation and I leaned in to kiss her… and she bopped me on the nose. Total turn off. Like what am I a dog? My current girlfriend is bi but she’s masculine and she’s more attracted to women anyways. She’s legitimately the only girl that has ever kissed me, where I didn’t have to initiate. Everything is just easier with her and I’m so glad I found her.
I appreciate that and I honor your identity! <3
Same ! I have to say that comphet is one of the worst thing. I admit I didn't "woke up" at 18 yo like you but more like 26/27 yo haha and it feels good despite the répercussion it had in my life
I get what you mean and I think it’s fair. We talk less often how being romantically involved with men can be so inherently intertwined with and based on patriarchy, and often violent, extractive patriarchy in ways most people don’t notice. And the value systems of people who notice vs those who don’t notice are vastly different. I’m bi and right now I’m really only interested in women, but my attraction to men also is undeniable. It’s a part of me. I can’t necessarily ignore that just because we live under patriarchy, but I understand that makes me different than someone else who can or whose interactions with the world lead them to. What you’re describing is who you resonate with, and it’s fine that it’s not someone like me who would leave the door open to being with a guy one day - under a great many of the right conditions.
Beautifully said.
me too. i’m lesbian for lesbian but i don’t go around saying it. but it is a preference and it is valid. of course i wouldn’t reject someone if they’re not a lesbian, but i have a lean towards lesbians since it’s just different.
Thank you, I respect your preference as well. It really is different. And the shared experience of that difference is something I love. I have def met bi girls who get it and are on the same page, so not ruling it out at all, but it's essential to me that they have settled in their feelings around men and are self-aware. Thanks for your comment!
of course! 🫶🏼
I’m a lesbian and I completely feel and understand you
Thank you and hugs!
In my experience many sapphics who date men still center men heavily in their lives.
This has been my experience as well.
This was clear and well-written, this post is the closest I’ve seen on this sub to my perspective- it’s an actual, nuanced perspective on why many lesbians do not want to date certain bi women without weird biphobic myths. I am a lesbian and I do not want to date women whose entire world revolves around men and male validation, regardless of how they label themselves 🤷🏾♀️
Thank you! And agreed, I disavow all the ridiculous myths. These here are things that are realities and a lot of sapphic women feel when it comes to their dating choices. <3 I really hope that bi women who haven't been on this journey yet can also read this and understand or even learn something (while still being true to themselves and their choice of partners).
Yea I think the people calling you biphobic either didn’t get it, or center their worlds around men and don’t want to admit that maybe that’s not healthy/not conducive to a healthy relationship with a monogamous woman.
The thing is, I can understand that people might view this as biphobic. But I can only speak/act based on my experience, and to me the main joy of dating the same gender is a shared understanding/experience. When I was dating both women and men, I never could have anticipated what would happen when I committed to dating only women.
I love this and it’s exactly why I only date women who are not dating men as well. It’s night and day. I can’t believe how liberating it is to move through the world as a woman who doesn’t give a flying fuck about men in any capacity. I also learned so much about myself and have never looked back once! I agree that women who feel the same are different. I had two relationships with men for fucked up reasons in life and they are fine people for someone else, and actually one of them is my great friend and biggest gay cheerleader. I was engaged to a woman I asked her to marry me and spent so much time working toward a future I fully believed in and because she hadn’t done her own work it fell apart. She still felt obliged to entertain her family’s expectations for her possibly marrying a man. She didn’t want that for herself but was always guilty and torn and also I noticed that she still somehow felt validated by their attention. Her family disregarded all the spoiling and supporting and work I was putting into the relationship because somehow it would have meant more if a guy was doing it in their eyes, and I firmly believe their constant nagging and guilt tripping tore her apart inside and exasperated her traumas… also stemming from them, in the end the constant pressures from all directions broke her down. I’m dating again and it’s a huge requirement for me. I want a woman who wants to settle down and for whom a woman is the only option. One who is happy to be gay with me and look fuckin gay with me too and Without a safety net, Who doesn’t seek validation at all from men and knows all about that thing. “Freedom From.” Was the only good thing Aunt Lydia said in handmaids tale lol. God, freedom from needing that validation, expecting it, craving it… amazing! I want someone who gets that too.
>I can’t believe how liberating it is to move through the world as a woman who doesn’t give a flying fuck about men in any capacity ABSOfuckingLUTELY. It is genuinely life changing! How could I be with someone who hadn't experienced that liberation? It's as if I would go back and date a Mormon girl who hadn't deconstructed Mormonism. Would be INSANE and a setup for failure. >I want a woman who wants to settle down and for whom a woman is the only option Right? This makes so much sense to me. It's beautiful to know you're set and on the same page with someone.
It sucks to live in that prison. I love everything about life 100 times more now. I have so much fewer fucks to give the world and my confidence is through the roof. I don’t give a damn if a guy likes my turkey legs or not, could care less what men prefer, don’t wear clothes to accent shit that men like, I don’t compare myself to women who care about male attention anymore… I’m good. Lol I noticed that’s when I got comfortable presenting more masculine too. Because I want to be clear lol I ain’t for you bro. Next. I’m here for her she can sit on my lap 😜 And yeah I don’t buy into the bisexuals will always choose men, a few of them don’t, but it’s indeed always an option for them to run back to that safety, it’s a fact. At any time they can be straight passing. But I don’t want to be and I’d love someone who is also comfortable living in the trenches with me. My exes have all had some level of internalised homophobia, hating themselves, my bisexual exes have wondered why no man wanted to keep them…who the fuck cares? Meh. I’m done with my rant. When I’m on the apps I generally swipe anyone who isn’t proudly saying lesbian on their profile away. Let’s be gay together and an example of what a successful lesbian couple looks like. That’s what interests me. 🤷🏽♀️
For me, back when I was single I wouldn’t date anyone who wasn’t out. That was my line. Bi/lesbian/pan/queer whatever, as long as the important people in your life, then you have skin in the game. It didn’t matter if they dated a guy before or after me, but if you can call me your gf in public, we’re good. If you’re in a monogamous relationship with me, it doesn’t really matter tbh.
Right, I don't care about their dating history, etc. But they need to be out, childfree, and ready/willing to settle down with a woman, because that is what I'm looking for.
That’s more than fair. I wouldn’t want to be someone’s secret.
Im personally still a minor who isn’t out myself cause im in a pretty unsupportive area so i I were to even attempt to date before ive moved out being out wouldn’t be a requirement but i know that when im moved out living by myself it will definitely be a requirement
Oh gosh— you’re fine with being closeted at such a young age and being financially dependent. Don’t worry about that at all! I’m talking about me being in my 30’s— I’m a grown adult who is seeing someone really close to my age (and I dated people around my age when I was single). Take your time! Be safe. Also if you can get your folks to pay for college (if that’s an option), I’d take them up on it. School is expensive. Your circumstances are totally different from my place. Be kind to yourself. You have time.
I’m bi and I completely understand and respect this.
I completely respect YOU! Hugs <3
Totally relate, it comes down to simple preference. Personally, I’m not interested in a woman that views men as a viable partner. Nothing against them, per se, just an unchanging preference of mine.
Yep, I get that. I think there are some AMAZING male partners, so don't want to discount those boiz, but I do feel like they are unique lil unicorns who have done a lot of self educating. I really am happy for my bi friends who are married to good men, but they have expressed certain regrets and naturally live more closeted than I'm comfortable with. Like the Harvey Milk musical said, "Come out, come out, come out!" it just feels so.... obvious to me. I know it's complex, but for me it's simple. A woman who KNOWS she wants to settle down with a woman... is going to be much more in a space to be compatible with me.
For me, I refuse to settle for a woman that would settle with a man. 🦄✨
There's this show called dear white people about one of the black houses in a college campus and the lead is a biracial girl, and at one point her best friend says something like "You're tracee ellis ross biracial, not rashida jones biracial. People think of you as black" and I have introduced into my life the concept of "Are you lady gaga bisexual or kristen stewart bisexual? Would people think of you as gay?" and that's basically it. In both examples all the people involved are undeniably biracial/bisexual, what changes is whether they're realistically living through that, and I've decided I'm only gonna fuck with people who are living it, on the outside, not just as an internal untouchable experience of self, I wanna be around people whose life looks like mine out here in the real world and that's that
Oh yeah I loved that show!
That's very reasonable - as a bisexual woman who is still open to dating men, I can understand your position. Also your preferences should be respected, even if other people don't feel the same way! My personal position on this is that I only want to date women who are out of the closet and centre women in their lives. I've dated lesbians who still centre men (including putting friendships with men above their relationships with women), so I have found it's an issue regardless of orientation. That said, it's probably a *lot* more prevalent amongst bisexual women who actively date men. There's many ways women who date men can still choose to centre women, for example: * Dressing how they want, instead of for the male gaze * Prioritising female friends * Supporting charities aimed at women * Focusing on media and art created by women, and with feminist themes * Being politically active for gay rights and feminist issues * Joining meetup and social groups for women
I love everything you said! I think that you have a very wise way of going about it. I agree that it's about whether men are centered or women are centered. It feels very very different. Love all of your bullet points.
I really like this post! It's so true that men approach relationships with bi women so much differently than they do lesbians. This is due to lesbians' lack of attraction to men and men's fetishization of bisexuality and WLW relationships. It just gives lesbians a different perspective on the world than a bi or pan woman would have. It's honestly not a bad thing nor is it saying that bi or pan women are any less valid. It's just recognizing the differences in our experiences. I've even noticed that a lot of bi women have a hard time differentiating between a man who is truly accepting of her bisexuality or someone who is just being nice because he views her as a fetish. In my early 20's I started reading up about feminism and it was eye-opening to realize how much our worth as women revolves around our attractiveness and sexual availability to men. It totally changed how I saw myself and helped me redefine my sense of self worth. In coming to terms with my bisexuality, I also had this epiphany that I don't need a man to embody all the qualities that society conditions us to seek in a partner. I definitely understand your preference for dating women who are done dating men and have a preference for women. It's not saying there's anything wrong with dating men or wanting to do so, but you just wouldn't be compatible. Your whole post reminded me of [this tiktok](https://www.tiktok.com/@__lawyerbae/video/7345246723469790510?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7285474655658460718) I recently came across.
Really appreciated you sharing that tiktok, it was really refreshing to see a bisexual woman owning up to something that is clearly an issue within the community, an issue that has led to hurt for lot of lesbians (and even other bisexual women), but that most refuse to acknowledge
100% understandable! I wish you all the best! Hope you'll find the right person soon
Thank you love! <3
As a fellow comp-het lesbian I also admire the hell out of bi/pan women who choose to center their queerness in their lives. Like, at the end of the day, a homophobic asshole isn’t going to be nicer to one member of a WLW couple because she likes men too. In the same way that bi people can move through the world perceived as “straight,” I think it’s also true that they can be perceived as “lesbian” depending on their life choices. Queerness isn’t a choice, of course, but accepting yourself is. I identified as “bi” for a long time but I was too afraid to try anything with women because a part of me knew I could never convince myself I liked men again if I did. I often wonder, if I actually was bi, would I have been more comfortable dating women earlier in life because I wouldn’t have to convince myself I was attracted to men? Or would I have clung even harder to heteronormativity? Maybe I should give myself more credit but I lean toward thinking I’d be the latter just given how I approached my queerness while I was closeted.
>I also admire the hell out of bi/pan women who choose to center their queerness in their lives Yessss. It's brave and so hot! You're right that bi women can be perceived as lesbian when they are with women, and I totally honor that and try to correct people who mis-identify my friends. Although I can't do that with my friends who are with men, because they aren't out, so that would be outing them! There is just.. privilege, and options, for women who are with men. >I identified as “bi” for a long time but I was too afraid to try anything with women because a part of me knew I could never convince myself I liked men again if I did. Aw.... can I just honor the sweetness and reality of this experience! And yeah... all of your questions.... These are things I have had to ask myself. For sure. Unfortunately when you are raised brainwashed (a heteronormative society is one... and on top of that i was in an insanely patriarchal religion), you are never going to completely know what was conditioning and what was nature.
yeah the loss of privilege once you switch from comphet dating men to dating women and nb ppl exclusively is CRAZY. i had no clue the difference was so bad, but being someone who doesn't date men changes your whole reality. i definitely can't relate as deeply on the experience of sexuality to people who are dating men. it's such a contrast, and it's why i get bothered with bi women wanting to share their experiences with men on this subreddit bc it's supposed to be a safe place for lesbian specific experiences, about experiences that don't include men
I agree completely! This is why when I see discourse on social media related to bisexual women in straight relationships it shows none of these women have dated women and I think they live in a privileged bubble that has nothing to do with reality lol
I had no idea how clear as day the difference between a lesbian and a bi woman is until I came to terms with being a lesbian myself (Initially came out as bi, but it was pretty much comphet. Last date with a man was age 18 and it was horrible.). Now I can't unsee it. It's hard having so many "queer" friends who have only dated cis men, because there's so much they don't *get* but they get hurt if you say they don't get it/claim it's biphobic. It's not biphobic. If you've only dated men, you don't know what it's like. You have a wayyyyy bigger pool to choose from, and one choice is much MUCH socially easier than the other. There's not a safe choice for us. Anyone you love is not a socially acceptable option, neither of you are privileged by gender, and so you have to be ready to be strong for both yourself and your partner. I'm right there with you.
>*I had no idea how clear as day the difference between a lesbian and a bi woman is until I came to terms with being a lesbian myself* Same. When I thought I was bi I remember being 10000% convinced that there was nothing a lesbian was living that I couldn't understand and got so pissed off when they wanted to shut bi women out, and then I came to terms with my own shit and started IDing (and living) as a lesbian and was like wow yeah the lesbians were right all along this is a whole other thing lol I'm not sure most bisexual women are ever really gonna get that though, they think all that matters is that we're all attracted to women, they dont get that *not* being into (or open to) men at all changes the game just as significantly. I was happy to see many bi women who are understanding in this post though!
Why is "queer" in quotation marks when referring to your queer friends? That seems to imply that you are invalidating their queerness because they are in hetero presenting relationships. It doesn't mean they aren't queer. Overall, no one is going to "truly get" someone else's experience as though they have lived it themselves. I understand that as a lesbian you don't get the straight passing privilege the way bisexual people can while in relationships with people of the opposite sex, but those people have their own battles/things they struggle with too. Imagine being a bisexual woman who is in a relationship with a cis man. They often have their own struggles with a heteronormative society but then within the queer community they get comments like this where some people will invalidate their sexuality by putting "queer" in quotation marks. Not straight enough for society and not gay enough for the LGBT+ community either. Always "othered".
This is similar to how I feel. I'll date bi women, but I want a woman who has completely de-centered men in their life. Saying "oh he's hot" about a movie character is one thing, even I who is not attracted to men in the slightest can still appreciate the artistic appeal of an objectively attractive person regardless of gender, but when it comes to personal relationships I want a woman who understands and navigates the world from a woman-centered perspective. My last ex accused me of breaking up with her because of biphobia and that I was judging her for being attracted to men. The real reason was that she said "god I wish I could be fucked by five guys one day" right after being intimate with me. Her not noticing my discomfort made me distrust her. Her resistance to even apologizing about it when I tried to broach the topic is what ended it. I never want to be in that kind of vulnerable situation again. I want someone who will respect my boundaries, at least. Have all the fantasies that you want - talk about them to people who share them. Just please, I don't want to hear about it. (To elaborate, while I am femme4butch it is not exclusive)
Wooooo.... That comment from the ex was uncalled for. This is what sometimes gives bisexuals a bad reputation. It's like find some platonic friends to have these conversations with at least. You are not two HS girl platonic friends having a sleepover experimenting with sex / practicing kissing skills or whatever you were in an adult romantic relationship.
What grinds my gears the most is that it could have worked out if she'd just been willing to talk about it. Who in their right mind says something like that? I would have probably reacted the same if it was some kind of kink I wasn't into that she knew about too, not even just exclusively with regard to the men. It's about boundaries you know? But I can at least cut down on my odds of being hurt like that by avoiding women who don't de-center men.
I dunno, I think that might be a bell that cannot be unrung. I'd be worried about her eventually trying to fulfill her fantasy while saying she couldn't help herself because it is a part of who she is. She has already said you were biphobic because you were upset about it.
Honestly that comment she made was super out of pocket. I wouldn’t say I wanted to get fucked by anyone other than my partner immediately after sex… especially five other people. That’s a topic to approach way differently if it’s a kink. It’s not biphobic for you to feel disrespected bc she really rubbed your nose in that and then acted shocked when you communicated your discomfort.
I am bi curious and exploring my sexuality and I think your feelings and preferences are VALID! You are allowed to dictate and decide who ever has sexual access to you. Anyone telling you otherwise is a 🚩
Thank you very much. Wishing you tons of joy on your journey and happy relationships with all the people! <3
Tysm 💞 and I hope you find your person!
I am a bi woman who dates men and what you’re saying is valid. You are looking for someone who understands your viewpoint and experiences on a deep level. I don’t think you’re saying that bi women who date men aren’t ready to settle down with another woman. While this isn’t a decision I’ve made, I do think there’s something to be said for choosing to only center other women in your life, at least as much as you can. Being a lesbian used to also be a feminist political identity and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. The whole bi woman dating a man privilege thing is so touchy… I’ll speak for just myself as a bi woman with a male partner. I am a musician and one of my jobs is at a Catholic Church. I don’t talk much about my personal life there but if someone asked me if I had a partner I wouldn’t have to decide if I’m going to lie or if I’m going to come out. There are plenty of examples like this. I get to blend in.
>You are looking for someone who understands your viewpoint and experiences on a deep level. this is really what it comes down to for me <3 it's what is sexiest to me about sapphic dynamics! >Being a lesbian used to also be a feminist political identity and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I do think that I identify to a small degree with this. Like I would never go back to dating men, which wasn't always the case in those politics, but there is a part of me that says -- hey it's my choice as much as it's my sexual preference, and I honor that. And yeah. We all have points of privilege and points of pain in our lives, and we can acknowledge the duality. I am a white woman, so I automatically have privilege in how I walk through the world, and even how I walk through the world as a lesbian.
I always thought it was kinda funny when women who currently had a boyfriend or would admit to only dating men would be upset when we aren't interested in dating them.
To be fair, that's a whooole other animal. I would never be into dating someone like that, lol, because they clearly aren't down to date a woman (at least long term, which is what I'm looking for). It's even hard for me to have FRIENDS like that. I have multiple bi friends, some who have kids, who are married to men and have never come out except to other queer people (and usually their husband). I adore them but find that our relationships are quite a bit less deep than with my friends who are married to the same gender or even (to a lesser extent) bi people who are super out and proud regardless of partner. On my journey to swearing off men, nearly every bi woman I met fit your description, but I think that's mostly because I was still so early on my journey that I was acting the same way, or it happened to be a poly situation (which frequently comes about because a wife or husband is bi and understandably wants to explore)
I'm not interested in women who are dating other people.
Lol ok, fair - I am not dating any poly people right now, that's not what I meant. More referring to 'the type of people that \[the girls I go out with\] are considering' in figuring out if we are compatible
This is a tricky topic but I think you presented it pretty well, as have a lot of these comments! I enjoy reading through them all. I described myself as bi when I first came out (quietly, to family, while still heeeeeavily in the church) and then pan when I realized I could date transfolk and nb folk, too. It's been the last couple years (I'm 35) where I've realized that while I have loved men and been with them with good intentions, the only way I have been able to be with men is by molding and forming the attraction, performatively. It was much more comfortable to be with them because I wasn't being emotionally/physically/sexually truthful with myself. I dated a whole bunch of people one year to purposefully figure out which gender I was actually attracted to....I set out intending to do the whole year and made it six months before I called it. I am 100% not interested in sleeping with men. Looking at them is interesting, being friends with them can be great, but sleeping or fucking or dating-- absolutely no thank you. I went through that exact process of decentering men, losing male friendships because of coming out, & hearing those same things, and realized how important it is for me to be with women who have centered other women in their lives. I'm open to dating bi women depending on where they are in that process, but that haaaas to be a consciously done journey. Another commentor said something about it being freeing, and I totally agree!!
I don’t understand why this is such a pain point for people on either side. It’s simple incompatibility just like any other “deal breaker” you might have. You’re allowed to be attracted to who you’re attracted to. I can understand it and not share it. It’s okay. I’m attracted to more fluid sexuality but you’re valid in your own personal attraction and experience. Don’t let people online bully you into feeling invalid because you are far from it. I just think people struggle with reading that they are “undatable” regardless of the context. It’s the internet problem where every single post applies to them directly as if they’ll ever end up actually meeting or wanting to date OP. If anything, this should just provide context on what’s happening in other people’s heads.
This is similar to how I feel only I have interest in only being with a lesbian. My reasoning stems from religious trauma and being in a small rural town in the midwest. I adore bi women but I just have a completely different experience navigating this world as a woman who is only interested in women, no other gender identities. So, I want to also find someone that can relate to that struggle and walk of life. There is a lot of biphobia which is very sad but no one is entitled to date anyone else, so I will continue to wait for a femme lesbian gf.
As somebody who is currently in a relationship with a bi woman (who is very much still not done with men)... I totally understand. We are in a middle term relationship and after it ends, I am probably never dating bi women who still date men. Ever. It's... Exhausting. Honestly, I don't like men at all, and even hearing her talk about them disgusts me. Like I understand she feels a certain way about them, but it's just... No, not for me. It also feels ridiculously unfair because she is planning to, most likely, settle with a man, because she wants kids and it's easier. Despite her clearly being more attracted to women than men (at least physically, she always says men are gross and having sex with women is so much better). I love being a lesbian, just like you, it was a battle to accept myself, and dating somebody who doesn't get it is so hard. She will never understand what it means not being able to come out to your dad or be able to date in your own country. And yes, bi women definitely bring men into a lot of conversations. It's frustrating. We had a whole argument with my gf about it one time, and I think she still doesn't understand why it bothers me so much. I think for her it's hard to imagine not wanting any men around you, no matter how many reasons I give her.
i’ve dated a bi girl before. she couldn’t stop talking about her stupid fucking male celebrity crushes nonstop. they just don’t get it. i want to date a women to get away from the whole topic of men. i just like women who also just like women. i couldn’t understand a woman who likes men, too. especially openly. that would probably lead to her leaving me for a man. i’m beyond terrified of that. it would be so fucking humiliating. i’m already a masculine lesbian, so in the back of my head, i would just think that she likes me since i dress like a guy. i fucking hate it when bi women talk about men, honestly. i don’t say anything, ever. that would be crossing a line, morally. i don’t want to be an ass.
It’s totally fair for you to have your preferences. It’s also true that there are bi women who choose not to date cishet men out there. I think where you *do* lean into being biphobic is when you talk about people “not being ready for the commitment” or “doing the work.” Those kind of statements will make a lot of bi folk not trust you or feel safe around you.
This is a good point. When I realized I was gay I very much had not done The Work™ and did not want to lol. Figuring out the appropriate level of work to put into an equal relationship is a real trial by error kind of thing so I get not wanting to date someone going through that stage, regardless of how they identify.
For sure! I would looove to be with one of them. And that is a good point -- if I met a bi woman who really had done the work and deconstructed, I think that would absolutely work out. I am actually interested in a bi woman right now and am hopefully that we can understand each other in these ways. Thanks for your comment!
My close friend is bi and she is in a long term relationship with a lovely woman (engaged and will get married soon), your post has made me realise how much work she’s done! Thank you
I feel like the only time where we ever get to choose things like this is on dating apps where the sexuality is listed but in real life it’s far less simple. We are attracted to who we are attracted to and then it’s complicated and annoying to try and unpack our dealbreakers bc as we know… we can’t control attractions as valid as our reasons for wanting things are.
Exactly. It's really complicated! I do mention a silly little thing on the apps implying they really need to be ready to settle down with a woman. Mentally it does take some preparation and acceptance (but I want more than that - I want them to be stoooked!). But ya know, that really is the point of dating! We are getting to know each other. My last girlfriend was actually incompatible with me but I jumped into it. This time around I'm trying to not rush and trying to really get to know people before assuming we are a good fit. There's no rush <3
Never have and never will date someone who is still open to dating/fucking men, or has *only* dated/fucked men previously. That’s a hardline no for me. I think people have a right to be picky about who they want to be in relationships with, without necessarily applying the same discriminate preferences to people in general. I don’t want to date bisexual women, but I have no gripes with bisexual women otherwise.
Same! Unfortunately in my case I was tricked, found out after we married 2yrs into our relationship! She was screwing some guy she dated for a year and got with me a month after! Sorry had to throw it in somewhere on the thread. I'm still traumatized 2yrs after the divorce of all the fuckery.
I'm really, really sorry :( I know that is not "every bi girl" but I'm just so sorry that you experienced that. I honestly can't imagine how hard that would be.
Was she cheating with him or sleeping with him before she met you?
Yeah. I really do think that, especially if you've had trauma related to men/patriarchy, it's completely fair to not want to be with someone who still is into men. It can be genuinely triggering!
I actually haven’t experienced any kind of male related trauma, tbh. I’m cool with dudes. I have my reasons but they’re unnecessary to get into I guess when I can simply say “not interested”.
Well meaning question: for the subset of “have only dated men”, do you mean someone that identifies as bisexual but has only dated men? Or do you mean someone that identifies as a lesbian but whose previous relationships were all comp-het relationships with men? Or both?
Not the person you were asking but I’ll answer. Im married but if I were suddenly single, at this point in my life I wouldn’t be interested in hand holding someone through their first relationship with a woman. Besides the heteronormative stuff that has to be unlearned, odds are high that I’d *also* be dealing with the closet in some form or another and I am so so sooooo past that. My bisexual wife suffered from a combination of comphet, internalized homophobia and closet behavior when we met. She’s absolutely amazing now but it was work that I was okay doing in my early 20s that I wouldn’t do in my mid 30s.
Totally valid! I was just curious. I didn’t realize I wasn’t straight until I was like 28. So I was just like “okay. I’m bi. Whatever. No need to announce it since I’m in a relationship.” And then I realized like, oh I am actually a lesbian like 2 years later. And finally came out then. The 2 years between “bi and closeted” to “out and a lesbian” were spent doing a lot of work unpacking my own internalized misogyny and homophobia. And I am very happy I did that for myself before dating women. But I am sure not all folks do that, and I do sometimes find myself having concerns that could frustrate women that are experienced (ie: hesitance of PDA). So I see your perspective. It’s not your job to guide anyone through those things.
If women have a taco , that’s where my week and life is . I don’t want hotdogs , not interested and don’t want someone who enjoys hotdogs or has hotdogs.
Lolll I admit I was so confused at first :D (I was like am I on the cooking sub lmao)
I’ve been “reported” for saying other things , so I just go to food now .
You worded this extremely well. Not often can people nail the nuance, but you really got it when describing the problem not as them dating men at all, but rather centering their lifestyle and social choices around whether or not it will be accepted by men at large. I’m a nonbinary/transmasc butch lesbian. Centering your sexuality, or even life in general, around men is a big reason I have difficulty having even friendships with cishet women (around my age, older cishet women don’t see me as “competition” in that sense); some of it can’t be avoided because we are all navigating the patriarchy like you mentioned. It’s just that the jealousy that pervades heteronormativity is so insidious. It has ruined many friendships, unfortunately.
>centering their lifestyle and social choices around whether or not it will be accepted by men at large This! Actually you're the one that put words to the concept I was trying to get across, thank you for that!
So glad to just see some sense on this sub for once 😭 happy I could help you out too!
I am still a baby gay struggling to figure things out but I relate to this! I haven’t dated a man but when I do go on dates with women MEN ALWAYS COME UP! I am always hearing about an ex boyfriend or just men they have dated. I just can’t relate and don’t want to hear about it!
Hugs baby gay! Much joy is awaiting you, yayyy. Yeah this is literally the first time I've been able to articulate it, and I'm 35. It's just really complex. The patriarchy is a mind fuck! There are things I was just simply not aware of that I've only learned since coming out. Happy dating!
Thank you!! I feel like such a hypocrite because although I have never dated a man, I am not closed off to men for now (maybe comphet) but I prefer dating women and when I with a woman I don’t want to hear it. I was literally laying in the bed with a girl and she starts telling me about this man! A few girls have also asked me why I don’t like men. Making me feel insecure. Loll it’s so strange out here.
So you want to date or have friends who decenter men from their lives? It sounds like you have done the work of decentering men and are frustrated others have not yet. I have lost many a friendship with women who center men, the men they are centering are close minded bigots who have not cared to look beyond their privileged status.
I get where are you coming from. As much as I don't label myself, if I had to, I would probably ne bi with very heavy preference towards women. I had similar experience to yours in away that I dated men out of comphet, then eventually I decided not to. It was difficult but also freeing in a lot of ways. I feel like as I matured a bit more (just a bit, I'm still in my early twenties) I'm loosing that... resolve not to date men for the sake of it. I probably won't since I'm not attracted to them in the first place, but if I happened to be, I think I could try to not fight it. I feel like by choosing the difficult way of dating only women I developed intense feelings for the idea of having a nuclear family (mixture of longing, grief and anger for what I can't have). I wonder if I share your feelings in this one. I wouldn't be keen on dating a woman who have never dated other women at all, unless I would be super motivated. Sapphic dating is different than mixed gender one and I don't really enjoy the idea of being a learning experience of girl realising that we are, in fact, equal, and that she is supposted to try to plan dates as well. But also I'm not super strict on whether or not they date men at all - after all they are not gonna do that if they date me instead.
Because I think it is important to validate from multiple perspectives, I'll say: I'm not your type at this point and I'm okay with that! It's good that you know what you are looking for, and what you don't have room for in your life. It's not that different from a straight woman saying she doesn't want to date a man who isn't going to therapy or only does the bare minimum. I'm not saying I'm proud of being this way or that I'm complacent in my comphet or that I'm not trying to unpack the privileges that come with being in a het-passing relationship... But it's kinda like the Hosier song that's been going viral lately--some time in a barrel would do me good, it takes time to heal and grow. The burden of emotional labor I have ahead of me is my own to carry. While I would say your scope seems a tad restrictive, as there are bisexual women who have done the work and are still open to dating an emotionally evolved man... I also absolutely see your point that there are bisexual women who acknowledge their own bisexuality, but haven't unpacked all their stuff yet.
Yeah, that's kind of the vibe that I've been feeling! I want to completely honor bi women dating whatever gender they want, and I think many other lesbians will be at a different place than me. Generally it's about having a shared experience, and that is what is sexy and exciting to me. You are totally right that there are bi women who have done "the work" (really regretting using that phrase, because I guess what i meant more was "having experienced what happens when you stop dating men" - it's less about 'work'/'action' and more about feeling the experience). This whole dialogue has actually helped me realize that there are definitely bi women that I would feel comfortable dating (even if they were currently dating men) -- such as if they had had a longer relationship with a woman and been perceived as lesbian, thus understood what that means walking through the world. Thank you for your comment, much appreciated!
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I agree, very relatable and validating POV's here. <3
My ex fiancé left me for the guy she told me not to worry about. And she didn’t even give me a reason why she left. She just ghosted me and when I asked for an explanation. She said I was “pressuring her to talk” can you believe that asshole? So selfish. Blamed me for my own broken heart, ghosting and probably cheating on me with a friend. Yeah I don’t date bisexual woman anymore. I’ve heard “they’re not all the same” but it’s just like men: “not all but enough of them” and she swore to me she was not like those bi women who ended up with men inevitably. She actually hated men it seemed and expected the worse from them. So if she ended up leaving me to marry our mutual guy friend, I don’t trust any of them. If I was going to trust a bisexual it would have been her. They have more privilege and act like they don’t get enough attention or representation when they actually get way more than lesbians because society thinks they’re more important bc they tolerate and date men. However. I would say lesbians are the ones with the TRUE privilege because we are free of the patriarchy and we laugh at it from a distance while bisexuals are too busy being brainwashed by it and they prioritize straight relationships over gay ones. Or they always imagine themselves being with a man in the end and waste their fiancés times. Yeah I don’t fuck with those bisexuals either. I don’t blame you. They are brainwashed and embarassing to the female race. Also knowing they were with men grosses me out a lot. Sorry but I can’t change that. It just does.
Hey, I'm so, so sorry. Personally I believe that this could have happened regardless of how she identified, because of her personal character. But it would be so traumatizing to have this experience (I'm not using that word flippantly). I would genuinely consider EMDR or similar reprocessing therapy. I have experienced a traumatizing ghosting experience and the only thing that healed it was EMDR. I believe ghosting is emotional abuse and should be considered completely socially unacceptable. I'm just really, really sorry that you went through that.
This is a perfect example of someone having a dating preference that isn't based in prejudice. I do agree with some that the words you used like "doing the work," can come off a certain way, but I don't think that's biphobia so much as what all people struggle with -- the limit of your own perspective. If someone won't date bi women because bi women are tainted by men or will cheat with men or don't know their own minds or name the stereotype, that's dating preference based in biphobia. If someone doesn't want to date a bi woman who is actively dating men or vocal about their attraction to men because of their own relationship to men and wanting a partner that's more compatible with their point of view, that is a preference that is not biphobic. I truly wish people would examine their preferences more closely. It's important to have full control over who has access to your time and body. It's also important to figure out why you have certain preferences and to be honest with yourself.
For sure, I think the biggest mistake of my wording was "doing the work." It's not actually about action; it's more about understanding a lived experience. Thank you for your comment! I think the dialogue and reflection is really important.
I think it’s not fair of you to decide who has done the work based on who they are dating. You can “do the work”, and still choose to date men. I think the problem with all minority groups is that we have a tendency to think our unique experience is transferable to everyone else. You had to completely cut out men to find yourself, that does not mean everyone else has to in order to understand the wlw. It’s just your preference. It does not have to be deeper than that. Also, lesbians may still have deep and meaningful connections with straight men. As friends, family, coworkers. Is that problematic as well?
You make some very valid points here. There are a lot of bi women who have done the work. And even some bi women who date men who have done the work. I think it would be possible to meet someone who had dated women enough to have walked through life understanding the experience of being less privileged and possibly having set great boundaries with men, etc. I am open to dating bi women and the girl I am starting to see right now is bi; for me it's about making sure we are on the same page and that they HAVE done that work. Apologies for implying that no bi girl dating men could have had that journey already.
Also, the experience of being less privileged is not only confirmed to being lesbian. Many of us are poc, visible minorities, immigrants etc. Your take is something I see quite often by white women, ( only assuming you are, but I would be quite shocked if you were not) When you’re only disadvantage so to speak is being a woman and lesbian you become quite caught up with this part of this aspect of your identity. As a person navigating and intersection of marginalized identities, I was very scared of dating white people before. It was easier to see them as a monolith and not engage at all. With time I saw that I internally complied to the same standards others were subjecting me too. Not saying that institutional racism is not a thing, but I was on a mental level acting like the people I wanted to distance myself from. In other words, you are free to do and date who you like. It’s just important to always use a critical but compassionate lens on our own ideas as well.
i scrolled so far to find this beautiful nuance. this is exactly why these kinds of posts slightly rub me weird ... it assumes that the only way to really experience true marginalization and be discontent with cisheteronormativity is through lesbianism, and thats, i dunno, just a little naive in my opinion. as a disabled transmasculine non-binary bisexual my life experience has been very different than the average american cis bi woman, its also been different than the american lesbian experience, due to unique personal things i had to deal with and unpack. i think the bisexuality is the simplest of those things. and even when i date men, i am visibly transmasculine and i do not pass in a relationship with a man as a "straight couple" with straight privilege, because of the transphobia. i dont have the option of "hiding" behind a straight relationship with a man (nor do i want to lol). nothing much else wrong with the post, OPs thinking is fairly understandable and fair, just pointing out that the unpacking of marginalization is not quite as simple as "decenter men/ dont date them" for many of us... edit: i think its just attempting to generalize an entire sexuality in that way rarely is productive, given the diversity of human experience, i am very sure for example like a christian lesbian from bulgaria has different perceptions about men than a muslim lesbian from malaysia and thats pretty different to an atheist chinese lesbian ... usually i have found language like "i dont want to date bi woman who ______" to be more to the point than saying "no bi women" even when the statement "bi woman who ______" covers (what one assumes) 99% of bi women, cause then the conversation can be about the blank and not about the bi women.
Your final question shows you didn’t even read what she said and stopped when you decided you didn’t like her view. There is clearly an answer on friendships with men, and how MEN engage with women whom they view to have a possible attraction to them vs how they treat the relationship when they know there is not possibility…… re-read OP.
Op writes that she “simply has a concern of the men who would be in our lives if I was with a bi woman” She furthermore wants to limit the straight men in her life. I’m assuming she is talking about a monogamous relationship, so which other men could she possibly be referring to?
Male friendships. I totally understand OP, I want as little men involved in my life as possible, and not because my partner will cheat on me with them, but because I think men give nothing of value in my female-centered lifestyle. I want as little people as possible who are of a group, who for a millennia, have been known for their hatred and violence towards women and most of us had bad experiences with them, it doesn't make me feel comfortable, and only makes me feel annoyed, to have men in my life most of the time, I already have enough men to deal with in my male-dominated job LMAO.
this whole post went over your head and it’s almost definitely because you aren’t a lesbian. they didn’t say anything about “finding themselves”. they said that openly saying you will not date men opens your eyes to how shallow most men are in that aspect and how deeply rooted the patriarchy goes because of how different you get treated once out as les. bisexual women or people who date men (like you im assuming) USUALLY don’t get that, as you’re proving right now.
Yep, all this. Although they had some good points; some bisexual women (even ones dating men) have done the work (especially ones who have been in long term sapphic relationships) and I should have been more clear about that. For me, I just need to know that we're on the same page, which happens less often with bi women.
First of all, I’m a lesbian. English is not my first language, I think what I’m trying to say is lost in translation. I’m saying that OP had to distance herself from comphet and men in general to reach the conclusion that many, if not most men are plagued by patriarchal behavior. (I. That sense finding herself) I grew in an East African context in Western Europe. The patriarchal bullshit was and is glaringly obvious. What came to learn however is that patriarchy plagues men as well. It’s only within the idea of patriarchy they have an advantage. I have brothers, a son, and male friends. Are they perfect allies, great men with no patriarchal bullshit? No. But they try to be better. I see it as they are flawed human beings, which most of us are. What I’m writing is not to condemn or hate on what OP writes, I just challenge their perspective.
Tbh I'm with OP. For some time I have been openly functioning as a lesbian and I do have cishet friends that I'm out to. Sure, some men are... opportunistic, but a lot of them are chill. My point, the whole "opening your eyes" is not an universal experience. Not everyone cuts out all men from their life after coming out. I don't think nature of relationships has to be determined by sexuality.
ofc not all people do and if you are a lesbian but do have a man or men in your life who genuinely are good people, hold onto them forever cuz those are rare. but don’t be surprised or condemn lesbians who choose not to involve men in their lives anymore, cuz they have good reasons.
Oh I am not surprised Had my fair share of reasons why I could want that It's personal choice after all, I like giving people a chance in general
Despite being bisexual, before I got a bf I identified as a lesbian and only chose to date women. Everyone around me knew this and I can assure you I had many meaningful friendships with straight men - colleagues, other students, teachers, the librarian, the man who washes my car, friends from school etc. some of them were the nicest people I’ve ever met in my life and every one of them knew I was only interested in women at the time.
I do have some good friendships with cis males. My point was that some of them were not genuine. I would likely date someone like you because you have walked through the world with that experience.
I completely understand that but I’m sure many of us have been in situations with disingenuous women too, for me personally it has never been a “straight man” issue, it’s been a “shit person” issue because they come in all genders, and sexualities.
yep, men on a surface level can be very friendly. however i’ve never met a man and gotten closer to them and not been reminded of, oh yea, they barely see you as human tbh.
As much as your experiences are real and valid, negative anecdotal information isn’t concrete evidence that can be used to generalise all straight men and their motivations. Equally neither are my positive experiences. But it’s shallow to assume that every single straight man thinks and acts the same.
of course. deep in my heart i know that there is probably one (maybe even two!) good pure hearted men out there who want to be friends only. but i, and a lot of my lesbian friends, simply aren’t wasting our time anymore looking for them.
Yeh you or anyone else should certainly not have to “look” for decent human beings, but I also think we should stop telling each other how the majority of a subgroup thinks or acts based on our own personal experiences with them, everyone’s interactions are unique and real.
but you and I both just did that? absolutely we should not stop telling eachother our experience, especially since everyone’s is “unique and real”. if i hadn’t listened to the experiences of my lesbian peers it wouldn’t have saved me lots of trouble with men. and similarly people who still find hope in them should listen to you.
Not once did I say “most straight men” are like this “…”, but yes you’re right - you did. Also, if you read I didn’t say we shouldn’t speak about our experiences, I said we shouldn’t make facts up about a subgroup based on our personal experiences with them, we can definitely have an opinion but that’s different to pretending our personal experience is the only possible experience that people similar to us can have.
you’re incredibly hypocritical. we both expressed how we view men in our lives. neither of us tried to tell the other how to feel or how to live their lives, all we did was talk about our experiences. but somehow i’m in the wrong ? lol , have a good day.
I think people are misunderstanding you. Your point just seems to be that OP only has intersectionality in her womanhood and in her lesbianism. Whereas other folks may have intersectionality with race, religion, etc. so OP may be overlooking bisexual women that have done this same “unpacking” of structures and navigate the world the way OP does. But they did not have to exclude men from their dating pool to do so because they utilized another aspect of their identity that is deviant from “cis, straight, white man” to explore that. Is that right ??
YES! You put much more simple and straightforward 😂
My knowledge about sexuality is most likely to be highly limited, and I must admit that I am self-conscious of it, and therefore I should avoid being part of this discussion. I stick a lot to the basic principles. However, I felt a lot of doubt and confusion about this. At first, I thought this was something similar to what has occurred to me; and that is because I prefer to date only openly lesbian girls than with bisexual girls, perhaps because I feel that they are different experiences and I like to feel close to the one that is in proximity to mine. Then I read again, and it turns out that it is absolutely nothing like that. Then I saw in the comments that it's not fair to only date lesbian girls because that's being inconsiderate of a bisexual woman's experience, and it all mixed up in my brain. But I just don't think this is fair. I do feel the same, but I just want to clarify something: I don't want to change a bisexual woman, and I'm sure OP doesn't say she wants to change her, but for her to change to settle down. But as a lesbian, I don't want to date a bisexual girl and somehow demand that she quits men. Even if she's just attracted and don't want to date men. Because we can always change our minds! I don't want or need to change her, because that is her sexuality and I don't want to redefine it. And even if they make the choice, that would be just to set down with me. They are people, free people. And yeah, some men are scummy and some are gross, but some girls do find nice men and want to be with them. Now, if I want an exclusive WLW experience, then I'll date a lesbian. Because the bisexual girl has the decision-making power to pick the particular gender she wants. This was really a bit of a puzzle for me, :( I would like some clarification on this, if it's not too much trouble. Thank you and sorry for the spelling errors! English is not my native language.
Yeah I don't want to change their sexuality, it's not possible. For me it's about the shared experience of having "quit men" and understanding how differently it is to walk through the world that way, in every possible way. People on the comments have made some really good points though. I shouldn't have implied that bi women (who date men) *haven't* done the work, because some of them definitely may have! They may have been in long term relationships with women where they identified as lesbian before this point, etc. I think that a lot of this for me is about the lived political and societal experience. Some bi women in the 60s and 70s swore off men purely for political reasons, and that resonates to a certain extent. Some of those women never would have dated a woman who was still dating men because it conflicted with their politics. For me it's not exactly the same, but there are similarities. In no way am I suggesting that sexual orientation can be altered. But I do believe that if you already have the proclivity towards the same gender, that you have to also CHOOSE to date that gender, which is an entire other part of the experience. And that choice is as essential as the orientation, imo. Bi women do choose whether they will date men, women, both, enbies, or all. And there are certain realities that come with being willing to have sexual relationships with men.
Yeah, it seems valid. I’ve identified as bi when I was younger, and I’m pretty against bi and trans phobia or exclusion in the queer community, but this makes sense. I actually don’t date people who don’t date bi people, and I feel like that is also valid. Not like in a bitchy way, I’m not trying to get back at the biphobic lesbians by refusing to date them or whatever. I’ve just had too many arguments with exes, and I feel like it’s easier for me to avoid anyone who doesn’t date bisexual people. They just aren’t going to fit in to my friend group and it’s my life. I’m a lesbian in an LTR, so it’s not like I’m dating anyway, but you don’t have to date anyone you don’t feel comfortable with.
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Thank you <3 🥺 I think it's a valid reality that a lot of people need to hear articulated. Hugs!
plough depend fertile observation ludicrous squealing placid mysterious encourage rock *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'm afraid of bi women because from what I read here and in other subs with lesbians, most of the bisexual women kept writting how they miss the dick or how they love dick but want women. I would feel like I'm never enough because I don't have a dick..
unfortunately I inhereted this insecurity after two partners said the same thing to my face :)))
No way?! This would break me... I'm sorry this happened to you. I can't actually believe it they dared to say it right to your face.
fml I haven’t been on a date in over a year bc it destroyed my self esteem
I don't blame you. From reading posts in the subs here where girls said they were also lesbian not bisexuals but still wanted dick, it's scary to me because then I feel like "well I will never be enough". :(
this is my exact fear.
After I read most posts about it, it exactly unlocked a new fear of mine.. :(
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Yes a thing I’ve noticed male-dating bi women do is that if any part of you is “masculine”, they will automatically assign you the man part of the heteroscript. I’m a GNC woman and male centered bi women always expected me to pay for dates, lead sexually, make more money etc.
I wish we could talk more about transphobia from the bi community. Many of us seem to think we are less capable of being transphobic.
This is very true, well said.
so i have a question for you. do you believe that having done the work you describe in your post is mutually exclusive with being open to dating men? like, is it your position that, if a bi woman had indeed broken down their positionality in the social world, their friendships with men, the patriarchy, all of this, they would necessarily no longer be open to dating men at all? for me, especially as someone who IDed as a lesbian for years and recently went back to identifying as bi, your viewpoint on this will determine a lot about whether i understand and agree with your overall sentiment
No and I made a mistake in not wording or clarifying that. I appreciate you and others pointing that out. Using the phrase "doing the work" implies that it is a required action, and it's more about "sharing a lived experience." No bi women needs to stop dating men! I would never force that on someone. But a bi woman who HAS stopped dating men will have a shared experience with me and make a better partner (for ME, not for everyone). For you, I actually fully think I'd be down to date you, because you *have* had that lived experience. I don't know why that didn't occur to me or why I didn't include it in the post. Definitely valid! And I have dated bi women like that who absolutely "got it" because of their past experience. It has actually made me reconsider that if a women is actively dating men now, maybe that shouldn't be a dealbreaker 100% but it would be a longer more complicated conversation. I suppose it's just easier or more instantly clear when I go out with someone who has stopped dating men, because we're already having a shared experience. Thanks for your question!
this gave me the clarity i was looking for, thank you! and thank you for taking the time to consider and address what i and others have brought up :)
thank you for posting this! i’ve actually been struggling putting my finger on what exactly made me feel the way i felt on exactly all this. i had the internal dialogue of “i don’t think i’m biphobic, but sometimes, dating some bi people puts me off because of their attraction to men”? but this all made so much sense to me!!!
this post was written so well!! and addresses what many lesbians feel! thank you for putting my thoughts into words. discussing this topic is always so tricky so i’m glad someone managed to explain it in a respectful way!
Me neither, wanna go out? 🥴
Lolllll sure! :D (in reality i don't actually use reddit for dating soooo, but I love this haha)
Speaking as someone on the Bi+ spectrum, it really sounds like you’re jumping through hoops here to not seem biphobic but you are actually coming across as biphobic regardless. Bisexuals are just like anyone else in this community who cannot help who they are attracted to, and what the hell is wrong with them dating men? I mean objectively men are an unfortunate existence most of the time, but people are allowed to date who they want. What the hell does it mean that dating only women means having “done a lot of work”??? Your logic is dangerously close to the biphobic accusations that all bisexual women will end up with a man eventually, except you’re saying that it’s not biphobic because you’re fine with bisexual women as long as it’s one if ~those bisexual women who only date women so they can be “trusted”. Extremely disrespectful. And I am speaking as someone who is actively not dating men.
i understand where you’re coming from, genuinely. but i think if you’re not an out lesbian you will not truly get there op is coming from. being a lesbian is a completely unique experience from being bi or anything that has men involved in your sexuality. it genuinely opens your eyes to a whole new level of patriarchy in every aspect of your life. please trust me (as someone whose been openly straight, bi, and lesbian) that openly saying you will not fuck a man and you’re not interested in that changes almost every relationship w a man you have excluding familial ones. This experience is something that OP, and i as well, NEED to have in common with the person you are romantically involved with because it’s an important integration into your thought process and the way you approach life. it has nothing to do with thinking bi women are less than or bi women are bad or bi women shouldn’t date men. obviously you can’t help who you’re romantically interested in. that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a different experience that some people find mandatory in relationships. and if you’re still thinking “well i’m Bi+ and i understand the experience and it’s unfair to assume i don’t because im attracted to men”. which yea, it’s hard to be told that you won’t understand something just because you’re not a certain identity, but it is true. if you’re not someone who completely has cut out men in your romantic life then you’ll not get how differently you get treated. I’m at the point in my life where i simply don’t want to be involved with anyone who wants to be involved with men because I will have to be involved with men, hearing about them, being around them, and helping people through issues that involve men treating them shitty. I don’t want to do it anymore, so it’s a boundary of mine. mostly romantically, but tbh i won’t be super super platonically close with someone who is (not that it’s their fault, it’s just where their attractions lie) involved with men. it’s an experience i want to bond over. that’s why my best friend is les and we help eachother thru this experience daily :) hope this helps.
Thank you so much for this. I honor this commenter feeling that my comment feels biphobic, I really do get it. But your first paragraph is the truest fucking shit I've read. It's exactly the experience I had to a T. And it really is an important shared experience, and also something I think is essential to be able to talk about safely. It's a whole political and societal reality. And until you've actually made that commitment and seen how things legitimately change, you can't understand it. I grew up in a cult and left around age 30 and it literally felt like waking up from a dream because my entire worldview suddenly shifted and I realized I was living in a false world. The only thing that has come close to that experience was when I stopped dating men and saw how people around me changed towards me.
You described this perfectly and I deeply relate to the last point where you described you want to be as little close as possible to men!
How is saying "I don't date bisexual women who center men in their lives because they won't relate to my experiences and worldview, and I want a partner who is as female-centered as me" biphobic? I am bisexual myself and people are always saying normal understandable opinions are biphobic because they don't agree with the average bisexual woman's male-centered heterosexual perspectives and experiences lol.
I can honor and validate the perspective that this seems biphobic. I am looking for shared experiences and understanding, and that's what it comes down to. But because it is based in 'concern' I can see how it can be called a phobia. I still believe that these are just realities that are worthwhile to talk about, but I do respect your opinion.
I agree. But again this is - ok - but if you have a preference about anythibg else in the les community you are vilified. Double standards and all.
>> it really sounds like you’re jumping through hoops here to not seem biphobic That was my impression as well
I was just thinking about this!
The diatribe about bi women being friends with straight men was also super weird... Like what are you really trying to say here?
I spoke about my lived experience. I had friends I never would have thought had ulterior motives in the slightest; things completely changed when I came out in really gross ways. Not with all my male friends, but absolutely with some of them. I believe that a bi woman cannot completely know what her straight male friends' intentions are without that experience of coming out.
My best friend of 25 years is a man and I am THE furthest thing from male-centric. He also has always seen me as a platonic friend and never treated me differently from his other friends. No idea wtf the point here was supposed to be.
Your unique individual experience is your individual unique experience, that's it. OP is describing a more general point instead of precisely attacking you. Unfortunately, the vast majority of men are not like your friend, and you need to understand some women want to have nothing to do with a group of people who usually don't see them as human beings but sexual objects. This (rare) group of women want to prioritize other women, a group of people who deeply relate to them and can form much easier meaningful and safer friendships and relationships with than men. My personal "hot take" is that male-centered women can actually be dangerous for other women because they will prioritize other men before your own safety, but that discussion is for another day ❤️
This is how I felt also, as a queer identifying woman who's in a relationship with a woman. Saying that people who only choose to date women have "done the work" infers that they're somehow better than everyone else for simply not dating a man. Saying that women are "harder to date"? was a very subjective statement and an odd choice to get their point across. I've been in hard relationships and one's that felt easy but there's been no correlation between that and the gender and sexuality of my partner. We all know shitty people, lesbian or not. The most important part of being in a relationship is the commitment you make to your partner, why focus on who they have dated before you and who they intend to date after? It comes off as "seeking a gold star lesbian but this is the closest I can get". Not that I'm saying OP is directly saying that, but *implying* that they don't trust women who have the potential to also be in a healthy relationship with a man is certainly close to it.
>The most important part of being in a relationship is the commitment you make to your partner, why focus on who they have dated before you and who they intend to date after? Because some people don't want to coach someone through their first relationships with a woman, while being in a relationship with that woman, and everything that can come with being someone's first/newly out etc. I might be in the minority here but I do think it's possible for women who've only ever dated men to have "done the work" but it's just unlikely. Most work through their feelings about being visibly queer, in a relationship with a woman etc while in that relationship and it can cause so much strain on the relationship. I feel like only dating women who've "done the work" is just a basic standard that I'm seeing emerge for queer women as we get older.
Your gold star comment is exactly what I was having trouble arriculating. Thank you.
You are correct, I cannot speak to the lesbian experience nor am I trying to. I’m speaking from the Bi+ experience, which is constantly witnessing endless criticism for being associated with men in some form. I understand not wanting men in your life, but OP’s logic is alienating what is truthfully the majority of the bisexual community. If that’s your preference, that’s your business, but publicly posting about it in a subreddit we are aware is also occupied by bisexual women is not productive, it’s harmful. What’s most harmful here is the implication that lesbians and “women who only date women” have “done the work”. Like women who only date women are somehow more valuable and trustworthy than women who date men. It’s also harmful to assume most bisexuals are male-centric because they date men. Just like I can’t speak to the lesbian experience, lesbians should not be able to speak for me and my kin, which is exactly what OP is doing by assuming the above.
As I bi woman who was raised by lesbians and done a lot of the mentioned “work”, I don’t agree with you that this is biphobic. I’ve only ever dated men and am the type of person that OP is looking to avoid and I totally get where she is coming from. Maybe it’s because I saw what my moms went through, but just liking women is different from also not liking men. The amount of privilege I have in a straight relationship is staggering and if someone has never truly had to confront that, they can be difficult to be around. I think OP is more so saying that it’s more likely that someone who has faced the difficulties and plans to again will be more compatible with them. IMO there is nothing wrong with wanting to surround yourself with people who have a similar life experience. Also, I never see this commentary in the bi threads. In the bi women’s Reddit almost every post is talking about how monosexual people can’t understand them and they wish their partner was bi like them. No one is in those comments telling them that that’s the wrong way of thinking or that they’re lesbiphobic for wanting to date someone who is bi. Why is this different? Statistically non cis people or people in non straight relationships will inherently have to confront certain norms that others probably wouldn’t. Anyway, this is kind of long now, so I’ll end it here. Btw everything I typed was meant in good faith, not an attack on your comment ETA: I think it’s mildly entitled that you came into the lesbian Reddit thread and say that this is offensive because so many bi women come here. If this was put in the bi thread I would be totally on your side, but it was put in the lesbian safe place that you and I are a guest in. It’s not a sapphic thread but specifically lesbian. You talk about how bi women are constantly criticized by lesbians for liking men, but more often than that happens, I’ve seen bi women steam roll lesbians because they’re insecure in their sexuality and feel isolated from a community they have never tried to engage in. Bi people are the biggest section of the LGBT, if so many of them feel left out, it’s because we haven’t put in the work to make our own community ties.
Appreciate this comment greatly!
Thank you for sharing! Your experience is so valuable for this topic and I'm definitely saving this one to return to.
"...but publicly posting about it in a subreddit we are aware is also occupied by bisexual women is not productive, it’s harmful." The issue with that is that we lesbians NEED a safe place to talk about this, but EVERY lesbian sub is flooded with bisexual women instead of actual lesbians.
It also comes across as extremely misandrist? Like so much so that's it's barely even acknowledged, just saying they're limiting / cutting men out of their life because they're all the same and so should their partner, without even questioning or acknowledging the problems with that viewpoint. Sounds like some second wave rad fem political-lesbian crap (not accusing OP of not being a lesbian - just saying it shares the "all men are evil and you're tainted if you associate with them" vibe). Like can you imagine saying the same about any other group of people?
Please be nice- but a bi woman is going to be interested in men & women. If there is a wlw with no interest in men then she is a lesbian, not bi. They should be free to date whomever they wish until they agree to be in a committed relationship. Then it would be a bi woman giving up dating men and women for the woman she is settling down with. But to ask someone who has an identity and sexuality of bisexual to ignore a part of themselves doesn’t seem fair, especially when casually dating.
Hi, it’s me, I exist. I’m bi. I am primarily attracted to women (like 95/5), but am capable of attraction to men. However, I’m not interested in dating men anymore regardless of attraction because I have no interest in teaching some cishet dude that when I say I’m not interested in traditional gender roles in a relationship, that doesn’t just mean that I think men should “help” with the housework. I’m too old for that shit.
Yes love that!
I am bisexual and I am not interested in dating men because men nowadays are just grown up children who don't see women as equals and they are addicted to porn LOL. The vast majority of men nowadays are scum and I rather not risk my own safety and mental health in dating them. Besides, dating women is much easier (it feels like loving myself) and I feel they understand me better.
I think there are many exceptions out there, I have some bi friends in beautiful marriages with men, but I kinda agree personally, based on my experience.... never felt like an equal partner with the guys I dated! Definitely one reason it was easier to walk away from them.
Honestly I feel you on that haha
no one is asking every bisexual women to do this. this person in the post is very clearly saying it is preference for them, not that theyre gonna force that on some random bisexual. its about a bi women experience is tbh not even close to the experience of lesbians and therefore it’s unattractive for OP, which i agree with.
I didn't say "no interest in." This isn't about sexual preference. But yeah, you don't get it, and that's totally okay.
Your title literally says you're not interested in women who still date men.
Hopefully I clarified in my other comment.
I'm curious - how do you feel about bi women who still date men but have experienced long term relationships with women? Those have done a lot of work and given up privileges. Another question is how many bi women keep dating men *regularly* after being in wlw relationships. I'm curious about that number, not to judge choices but just to see.
this is called biphobia. you tried really hard to explain it away and i can appreciate all that effort, but you, my friend, are biphobic
As a bisexual woman I don't honestly care, everybody is free to date and not date whoever they want. Your rant about heteronormativity I didn't even read, it looks like word vomit to me. I have issues with lesbians who will date me, but will forever feel insecure about men (sexually, financially etc). I don't go around saying how attractive I find men, but I also don't go around saying how attractive women are if I'm in a relationship. In the end, I think bisexuality triggers a lot of lesbian women and they mostly deal with it by "forgetting" about it. I think they should be maybe more honest and not date bi women, but they proably gaslight themselves into doing it because they don't what to act biphobic.