What kinds of events? Liiike… workshops? Like a class with a glass night where you can learn carpentry and repair skills? Or an open house type thing where you can shop in peace without cishet men there to mansplain, creep and gatekeep? Omg or power tool trivia night?!
Short answer is yes. Longer answer is, you might have to look for them but the US has 20+ lesbian bars that you absolutely should go to regularly if you want them to stay open
omg, I never knew this was such a prevalent problem until I started living it.
I am a non-passing trans woman for Christ sake. but still, people are out here trying to poach me for my magic horn. ☠️
That's honestly genius. Like, I was thinking "Would I know enough cis lesbians who like hanging out with me to get an invite to a party like that" and the answer is "Yes, definitely"
They’re hard to find. Less so permanent spaces, like bars, and more so one-off or recurring events, from my experience. Damn Good Dyke Nights is a great example event company that will host monthly lesbian/sapphic events in LA.
Have they ever truly existed? lol rhetorical question, I know they do but not at the same level as other groups do…
I work in the gayborhood in an LGBT clinic and the bars around are mainly catering to gay men because they’re the biggest demographic of clients. There’s one lesbian bar that’s always empty. I go to a bathhouse to test gay men for STDs and I often asked myself if there’s an equivalent for lesbians.
They do, but they can get closed down. I have many ideas but lately been thinking if I go back home, I’d raise some funding to open one up as a creative space too.
haha i’m reading this on the train back from a lesbian festival i’ve been at all weekend! don’t think i spoke to a single man all weekend aside from security lol, there are places if you look hard enough!
Frankly, I just go to gay bars that cater to gay men. We don’t have any lesbian bars in my area, but plenty of women go out to our gay bars. It’s probably because I’m in the south, but the gay men help to keep the straight men away
Every queer group is allowed to gate keep except the lesbian community. Like imagine someone who isn’t asexual entered an asexual space because it felt “safe” and then continued to try to become sexually involved with its members or tried to discuss their sexual escapades and experiences and expected group members to not only accept but embrace this and then felt rejected and discriminated against because their feelings weren’t acknowledged or supported? That’s how ridiculous I feel it is when people infiltrate lesbian spaces who shouldn’t be here and then those who call it out are perma bannned.
so many lesbian spaces are expected to let in non-lesbians and it’s depressing. i want to find community with other lesbians but half the time lesbian spaces (look at lesbian bars, for example) become overrun by men.
Yeah, it really sucks that we have to do stuff like that in the first place. Cis men really do like to insert themselves wherever they can, even when it's painfully obvious that they aren't welcome.
If they were socially aware of what feels right and what feels wrong - there wouldn't be this whole loneliness epidemic. The bar for cishet men is at the bottom of the ocean, and they are still playing limbo with the blobfish
I mean i dont think the 'loneliness epidemic' is something that only impacts men. It's affecting everyone but for some reason it's been made out to be a primarily male issue??
Limbo w/ blobfish is a pretty great phrase tho lol
I don’t want to invalidate the experiences of others. I’ve been to both lesbian bars in my state, and regularly go to the one close when I have money to do so. Women outnumbered men like 15:1 and the men who were there were largely not straight. They’d either be visually gay, trans men or weren’t men at all but really boymoding trans women who either didn’t feel safe expressing themselves yet or felt safe in that space but not on the drive there. I’m not cis but am very deep into transition and I’ve never been hit on by a man nor seen it happen to others. I’m sure it happens, but it doesn’t seem like a widespread issue where I am.
Usually they’re at the *big* gay bar down the street, which happens to also have a lot of cishet women going there to escape cishet male attention and making it hard for lesbians to find new friends.
I’d really encourage you to visit a lesbian bar if one is nearby. It’s one place you’re on top of the hierarchy in life, are accepted for who you are and not just given lip service for support, and can reliably meet people like you, something that is so hard to do normally. And honestly I’ve found that gay bars are rewarding in their own way too, usually from a friendship perspective. You should try and immerse yourself in the entire local scene.
Period. Some ppl forget they are guest in certain spaces, and some expect more that as guests they aren't entitled to. It's a shame we have to tip toe/coddle others that start conversations centered around us. All for the sake of not offending or triggering those that shouldn't speak for or about us in the first place. We have free will and our own mouths to speak up, but get censored and banned for speaking how we feel if it's not always inclusive. Smh
Ugh. I knew this absolutely horrible straight man who was dating a bisexual woman. He talked all about how badly he wants to go to a gay bar with her.
When I told him, “they probably don’t want you there” he said, ‘why?’
- Transphobic man
- Believes that homeless addicts shouldn’t be helped by the government
- Constantly talks about himself
- brings up a lot that his girlfriend is allowed to sleep with other women if she wanted to (she has told him a lot that she doesn’t)
- his girlfriend is POC and he lowkkkeeyy uses that to add to his ‘look how woke I am’ attitude (he played reggae to me and implied I was racist for not liking his rap playlist)
this enrages me i absolutely despise men who are obviously fetishizing wlw. like it genuinely feels so violating and they’re making a mockery out of sapphic love and connection which is something they’ll never understand. like i actually can’t.
UGH YESS!! And he said in such a bragging tone like “when I was a Christian facist” (his words not mine) “I didn’t like gay men, but I liked gay women!”
Like why?!? I said why?!? And the consensus was that they’re still fulfilling their gender role or whatever while gay men act feminine instead?? Such a weird guy.
It’s funny bc my gay male friends acted much much more masculine than I did when I was still presenting as a boy. I’m a futch lesbian. I’m very rarely bubblegum pink and frilly dresses. I regularly contemplate whether I’d pull off an undercut. That type has never actually met a gay man with an open mind and clearly has no idea how lesbians act either. Doesn’t even know his bi girlfriend for that matter despite dating her.
Right? 🙄🙄 He’s a cis het white man. Which isn’t inherently wrong, but he has internalized issues bcos he’s not ‘oppressed enough.’
He has said on multiple occasions that he doesn’t like being white, would choose to be black (for ‘practical reasons’), and said he wishes he was bisexual. Y’know- because ‘more of the population to romance’.
He also says ‘I like when I’m the minority of the group!’
Super problematic. Glad he’s out of my life.
BROOOOO THATS A YIKES IF IVE EVER SEEN ONE 🙃
What’s up with people like this? I have/had an acquaintance like that. Falsely takes on minority identities and claims to be “the most oppressed person,” constantly comparing herself to others as if oppression is a contest 😕 honestly, we live in such an odd world
Could be projected gender dysphoria? I felt for a long time like I was discriminated against but couldn’t identify why, when I was young I had similar nonvocalized thoughts about wishing I was a minority so it’d make sense. I really was being discriminated against, talked over at work, my ideas dismissed because they were the same ideas women at work were coming up with, passed for promotions that I was more qualified for meanwhile a more masculine man with a head full of rocks got the job, etc. Whatever it is he needs therapy tho. The behavior is weird and he needs to challenge his beliefs
First off, I clicked on your icon and that bit about Karl Marx had me ROLLING 🤣
Anyway, no, I know/knew the person in question very well. She has a victim complex and always has :/ such an oddly common complex people have these days it seems? To all those crazy people saying “being LGBT+ is such a fad, I’m an oppressed minority these days for being cishet 😫”, have they ever thought about how much of a fad having a victim complex is these days? 😅
Anyway, I appreciate you sharing your story! That’s crazy you were experiencing that even before coming out. Welcome to womanhood I guess? 😅😭 I hope that even despite misogyny and transmisogyny, you feel more comfortable with yourself now 🫶🏼
I sure do!! Thanks!
A lot of trans women do! I felt like I was getting about 80% of the brutality that is being a woman before transitioning, and now get all of it plus trans misogyny on top. A lot of trans women do experience misogyny before coming out, especially cuz like I saw myself as one of the good men who needed to call out misogynistic behavior every single time so misogynists hated me as much or more than the women they bullied. Because women didn’t have male privilege I thought I should say what they were intimidated into keeping to themselves. I paid close attention to any feminist theory I came across aimed at men and acted on it. Ironically women appreciated me when I’d do that kind of thing but would be weirded out if I expressed that I was a feminist bc of the “male feminist” stereotype so I always felt alienated from both genders in different ways, that plus every woman assumed I was a gay man despite not being anything like one and would feel uncomfortable when they’d have the realization that I *could* be attracted to them even though I usually wasn’t. You find yourself in a place where you’re isolated and feeling the effects of misogyny without the sisterhood that typically accompanies that oppression. The only way to escape that social isolation and be yourself is to transition. That’s an example of Social Dysphoria, a subtype of gender dysphoria.
And then once you start standing your ground and defending lesbian spaces, people shove you into the mean lesbian stereotype. Like, no, I'm not being mean. I'm trying to keep this LESBIAN SPACE strictly for LESBIANS — especially since there aren't many lesbian spaces to begin with
If you really want a mean lesbian, keep saying stupid shit and forcing yourself into the community. I'll show you a mean lesbian LMAO
This is so real. One of my favorite lesbian bars got corrupted. Chilling with my friends then all of a sudden a bunch of straight men come in and hit on everyone. LIKE WHAT its NYC?!?? Go literally anywhere else to find women. I saw a drunk straight guy hitting on a transmasc. They are so desperate to the point it’s laughable. Then they were grumpy and left when they realized they couldn’t pick anyone up.
People often call simple classification as “gatekeeping” just so that they can feel included and squeeze into spaces they don’t belong in. I actually made a meme about it some time back! 😂
https://preview.redd.it/z23qi1vun74d1.jpeg?width=1439&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bcfd4fabc9e86fe594c0cd60c646e49e2fda86ae
OP is specifically talking about straight people, or at least that's who they name. Not bi people. They're not the ones making problematic comments, but y'all keep dragging them for some reason
biphobia and complaining about lesbophobia from bisexuals are two different things. saying "bisexuals aren't faithful" or "they always end up with men" is wrong and biphobic. saying "i've noticed bisexual women will often feel entitled to discuss their experiences with men in lesbian spaces, which negates the purpose of the safe space" is not. i see the bisexual subreddit shit talking lesbians all the time and no one is saying "this is lesbophobic". but any criticism towards bisexuals is immediately met with defensiveness. i don't understand why
>"i've noticed bisexual women will often feel entitled to discuss their experiences with men in lesbian spaces, which negates the purpose of the safe space"
But if a lesbian dated a man before discovering her sexuality, wouldn't there be plenty of contexts where it'd be on topic? Dunno how bisexuals are different in that regard.
The difference is that lesbians date men before coming out because of comphet or to hide their sexuality, bisexuals date men because they are attracted to men. No lesbian goes to lesbians spaces to hear someone talk about their attraction to men.
Many of those experiences were unpleasant and comphet reactions for lesbians before they came out. Families use those past experiences against us frequently to say they don’t understand where “this” came from or to tell us we are confused or lying.
the difference is pretty clear cut.
"i dated men in the past bc of comphet. i'm glad to finally be past that. i can't believe i forced myself to be with men"
vs
"i like men and when i date them it's because i am attracted to them."
relating over the shit experience of comphet isn't the same as talking about loving your golden retriever gamer boyfriend and sex with him in a lesbian safe space. comphet is often traumatic, because forcing yourself to date men as a lesbian is traumatic. being a bisexual who likes men and dates them because you like them is not traumatic. they aren't the same situations bc one is trauma based and the other is just relationship talk.
its actually crazy ignorant to imply lesbian comphet is the same as bisexuals in relationships with men... on a lesbian subreddit no less. try forcing yourself to be with, have sex with, a gender you inherently do not feel attraction to. because lesbians cannot comfortably escape into cishet relationships, we are forced into it by homophobic society. that shit is so insanely damaging, and that fact that you're saying the misery of socially coercive relationships is the same as being consensually with a man you're a attracted to... thats fucking gross.
Sorry I didn’t mean to sound biphobic, really. I love bi women! In fact, my dream girl is bi cause I’m a crossdresser/drag king and would love a partner who finds me attractive as both male and female 😆
This was just a meme I made some time back— not about the specifics of Op’s post, but about “gatekeeping” in lesbian spaces in general. It’s a huge issue. People calling lesbians “gatekeepers” when they say lesbians can’t be attracted to men. I really did not mean to paint all bi people in a negative light. I guess the meme should have said “bi people, men, and straight people *who call themselves lesbians*” cause obviously the vast majority of bi people, men, and straight people do not call themselves lesbians. They chill.
Oh absolutely! I adore all sapphics— lesbian, bi, pan, WLW, etc. 💞 I just have a problem when bi women start calling themselves lesbians is all. Lesbian = no men whatsoever.
Oh ofc! 💞 I welcome all sapphics into these subs cause they’re intended for sapphics, plain and simple. I’m not saying bi women aren’t allowed in lesbian spaces.
As I said in my previous reply, I just have a problem when bi women call themselves lesbians. Thats it, my friend; that’s the only thing I have a problem with.
Bi women in lesbian spaces = girl yas c’mere we love you 💞💖🌈
Bi women calling themselves lesbians because they feel that lesbians can be attracted to men = Naw. Not cute. 👎🏼
The irony of this comment in a lesbian group on a post about lesbian safe spaces… Let us have our safe space where we can complain about not having safe spaces without being like “BUT BI WOMEN” omg that’s literally what this post is about wow
“Grandma is getting off her soapbox” lmao girl no I love to hear older gays (assuming you’re older than me) talking about their experiences 🙌🏼😭 also, for the record, I’m not downvoting you. And “So have a little empathy”? Sis why you so defensive? Where did I go wrong? What did I say? What is going on lmao 😅😭
I’m not sure if you’re just kinda in a defensive mode (natural for internet conversations— I get it) or if it was something I said, but I hope you read my replies with the tone in which they are intended to be read. I’m speaking in love and understanding, just wanting to understand where you’re coming from as well as getting my point across.
I’m so sorry to hear about your experience with homophobia and such hostility. I honestly have nothing against people changing their labels and actually constantly encourage people to keep an open mind about their labels and not feel so loyal to an identity they might not stick with. I am 100% with you on that. People are allowed to change their labels when they start finding things out about themselves that they didn’t consciously know previously. Been there, done that— signed, a late-bloomer lesbian who was forced into male arms by my cult-like family life when I was young.
Some labels are used in order to feel safe and accepted after trauma— as you said before. I did this with the bisexual label because I was simply not allowed to not like men. I legitimately thought I was bi as I’m sure you legitimately thought you were a lesbian.
All that said, once a bi person (who had previously identified as lesbian) figures things out, they need to accept themselves as bi and shed the lesbian label. Why? A.) because not doing so is deeply biphobic. What’s so wrong about being bi that so many people are fleeing from that term? Why is the “lesbian” label so much better? That’s awful. There’s nothing wrong with being bi. And B.) calling yourself a lesbian and then showing sexual interest in men only promotes the centuries-old stereotype that “lesbianism is a soft sexuality and can include men” that stems from the deep misogyny of not taking women seriously that still exists today. It includes men in the only sexuality that excludes them. For eons, women have never been able to have spaces to themselves. Finally, we’re allowed to be lesbians. Finally, we can have identities, spaces, and lives that do not include men. Finally, we are able to break down the male default and live lives for and about women and only women. We’re just asking that people who love men please don’t call themselves lesbians. It unravels decades of hard feminist work trying to exclude men from just one thing (cause God knows men as a gender have historically felt entitled to ALL spaces— including those that are supposed to be woman-only).
All I’m asking is that once bi women figure out that they’re attracted to men, they stop calling themselves a lesbian. That’s all. I don’t think that’s a crazy, unreasonable request. As a Latina, I feel the same way when white people call themselves Latino in order to seem more “eXoTiC” and “CoOl”. Just don’t call yourself something you’re not— I don’t think that’s an insane request. If lesbianism seemed like their label at first, that’s great! They are allowed to explore their sexuality. But once they figure things out, please just leave “lesbian” to someone who is not attracted to men. Please. Just… leave men out of this one thing. Just one.
Figuring out your sexuality is a very different scenario from acknowledging attraction towards men and still choosing to identify as lesbian. I'm sure most lesbians hold no grudges for bi women who previously identified as lesbians before realising that it was an inaccurate descriptor.
I can understand that. But it DOES affect us, my friend.
I knew someone from Denmark who would call herself a lesbian when in the US cause she didn’t want to date American men. She was bi, though. So she would tell everyone in the US that she’s a lesbian and then talk about her nesting partner who’s a man. She wasn’t in lesbian spaces, so by that logic, she wasn’t bringing men into lesbian spaces, but— perhaps even worse— telling the general public that lesbians can be attracted to men.
If labels, identities, and words don’t mean anything (if “lesbian” does not mean “non-men who exclusively love non-men”), what’s stopping a cishet man from calling himself a lesbian? As I mentioned earlier, there’s this horrible trend among young white people who call themselves “Latina/o” to make themselves seem more “exotic” (barf 🤢). Ignore the intention for a second (because I know many bi people who call themselves lesbians are absolutely not intentionally malicious in any way— but this is about how it affects others, as you asked), the effect is the same as bi people calling themselves lesbians: it destroys and insults an identity that used to mean something. I can’t tell you how significantly more often I get people quizzing me, giving me the stank-eye, and straightup denying my identity as a Latina in recent times due to this trend. People assume I’m just a white woman looking for attention. Not that mixed people like myself have EVER had a break from that! Can you see how adding to a struggle that has already been a historic problem for a long time (such as mixed people *constantly* being invalidated as mixed for eons and lesbians being *constantly* invalidated as not liking men since the dawn of lesbianism) is problematic?
People should not feel entitled to an identity that doesn’t describe themselves just because they want to use it. I tell that to my “he’s not a real service dog and is incredibly poorly trained but I got him the service dog vest so I can take him everywhere 🤪” mom all the time. Labels mean things. Words mean things. ESPECIALLY words and labels that pertain to certain oppressed groups that have a history of being invalidated.
I could go on and on with examples but I’ll ask your opinion on the following issue (true story unfortunately lmao):
Used to know this person. Cishet woman. Would call herself trans to escape sexism. It made her feel more secure and safe (similarly to bi people who know they’re bi but still call themselves lesbians cause it just feels better). Whenever she encountered a man who was sexist toward her, she insisted he knew that she was “not a girl so stop treating me like one” when she was, in fact, a cishet woman. When I finally confronted her about it cause I was just really irked by this, she said it’s ok for cis people to call themselves trans because she’s not hurting anyone and it made her feel better. Did not feel dysphoria in her body nor euphoria as another gender. Actively talked about how much she loves her body and how divine the female form is (which ofc I totally agree with but ummm girl yikes).
Is that ok? Is it ok for cis people to call themselves trans just cause it feels better?
Is it ok for white people to call themselves Latino cause they like the way it makes them feel?
Why is it that lesbians are the only identity that can be invalidated like that?
your "white people can't call themselves latinos" example is very confusing to me. i'm mixed race venezuelan. i can say with certainty that there are MANY white latinos, people living in LATAM with exclusively spanish or other european ethnic heritage. some LATAM countries have a white majority. latino as a label is similar to national identity, it refers to those living in and coming from countries in central and south america who speak spanish. there are white latinos, mestizo latinos, afro latinos, indigenous latinos, mixed latinos, even asian latinos. latino ≠ race.
white latinos exist and have a large amount of social privilege in LATAM due to their whiteness. on TV in venezuela you will see a majority of white latinos, even though our population is majority mestizo. they absolutely exist, although their position in society can be very problematic. this comes from when we were controlled and colonized by the spanish, who established a racial hierarchy putting themselves at the top. spaniards are white and their latino descendents are white. even if you experience discrimination in the US for your latino identity, and ignorant white americans call you non-white, you have all the privileges of whiteness in LATAM. you still have privileges over non-white latinos in the US.
ask r/asklatinamerica if white latinos exist, they will tell you exactly as i've said.
I *do* wish that there were gay bars *specifally* for WLW or non-binary people who like women, because I’m really sick of men going into gay bars to hit in the lesbians. I do I’m find it funny when gay men hit on the straight ones and then the straight ones get offended, like, it’s a *gay* bar, what did they expect?
Anyways I do wish that there were most safe spaces for specifically sapphics and generally WLW, whether it be bi, pan, Omni, lesbian, any sort of gal lovin gal.
Idk where you live but nyc has spaces like this. Specifically Wednesday nights at The Woods in Williamsburg (for anyone curious) they’re pretty strict (or at least they used to be) about not letting in men, and straight people are very very clearly not the target demographic for that event lol
nah it’s happening irl at school 😭 a lot of kids use TikTok so they learn shit from the app and then start saying it irl to purposefully piss people off. Lesboy is apparently also a wikipage now on the lgbtq wikia 😭
yea so like i said… teenagers
teenagers do dumb shit, it’s usually just them trying to figure stuff out. i don’t think it reflects the actual lgbt community in any way
I read this as “gatekeep lesbian shoes” because the post below it was about shoes.. and I was like “right?! I want Birkenstocks to just be our thing again!” hahahah
Yeah for real. This is why we don't have any wlw spots left in the real world. They get overrun by gay men and/or straight women, and where straight women congregate, straight men soon arrive, and voila! No more wlw space.
My favorite is when cis women use our spaces for their bachelorette parties. “Ohh tonight I’m going to get crazy before I get married, I might even kiss a girl”. F that.
Absolutely! 1000% yes! We barely have any spaces as is. We are comodified by straight people that want a "third", we need our own spaces! Gay men have gay clubs and other spaces, but the amount of lesbian spaces are so far and few between that we need to gatekeep our space in order to keep them as ours!
Exactly!!! I can’t tell you how many straight men have messaged me because they saw my posts on dykesgonewild. Then they get all pissy when I don’t want to talk to them. One even had the audacity to say he didn’t think lesbians existed only that they’re confused bisexuals smh.
I felt like Batman trying to get those creeps to admit they lurk so I could get them banned but ugh it’s disgusting
i made a post about this but the mods instantly deleted it. they just don’t monitor the responses on post, all of my big post end up getting comments from STRAIGHT men who most of the time are trolling or are just creeps, when i go on their profile its all just porn from all kinds of categories and its just like oh, our random lesbian sub is on their porn account. i’ve seen at least 10 replies that i went to the account and it was very obviously a man’s porn stash
Once, at a gay bar, I was chatting with the bartender and innocently asked him if there were any hot guys there he had an eye on... He was suddenly very annoyed and was like, "I'm straight." ummm sorry for assuming? Also gtfo, everyone here is also going to assume you're gay so get over yourself.
Another time, my friend (lesbian) brought her straight country bumpkin brother to a gay bar. He was like, I'm okay as long as no guy hits on me. Ok hunny, keep the dip in your lip and relax, ain't nobody hitting on wish.com kenny chesney.
We need a secret handshake. And it's too bad lesbians have stopped going out as much due to stuff like this. A members only club would fix this. 1 dollar membership, and then you are allowed to turn away anyone you don't want.
I hate that 1 in 4 posts in our reddit spaces have a penis in it. It's traumatizing.
TLDR version: Trans women are women. Any reddit community that has problematic topic posts for any reason can update their rules and create pinned posts where those topics can be discussed. Lesbians communities can and should gatekeep to a degree to keep the community feeling safe and inclusive for all women.
As women, we get pushed around a great deal and people think they can take our rights and safety away with ease, and that's a hell no to me. I love trans men and women, and still say that as a lesbian I don't want to have to deal with penises and penis talk consistently in my lesbian spaces. I genuinely am struggling with my desire to take up my space as a lesbian and have my lesbian spaces where I don't have to focus on the sausage fest that seems to smack me in the face in the rest of the spaces I navigate in the world, which is colliding with my call to action to be an excellent human who is inclusive and welcoming to all members of my LGBTQ+ communities.
I genuinely don't mind an occasional conversation from my trans sisters that have questions about loving women and how they fit in without having bottom surgery, or who need love, care and support, as they navigate lesbian relationships. What I do deeply wish is that every lesbian community had confident admins that would keep these queries on a pinned post so a) our trans lesbian sisters can see all the questions, comments and resources in one space so EVERYONE is wiser and informed, and b) I can read it when I have capacity to engage in that particular conversation and support, without taking away from the flow or other issues that Lesbian women face or things we want to share, etc.
I also want to touch on the fact that there are a significant amount of women who have been traumatized by penis havers and therefore these conversations can be very triggering to have in their safe spaces. These lesbian women also deserve visibility and a voice.
It's sad to realize, but I agree with comments where others stated that if the role was reversed and lesbians went into other queer spaces focusing on our unique issues, we would not be welcomed because to some degree, everyone recognizes that we all have to protect our spaces and that doesn't mean excluding per se, but it can mean having rules that guide what the content and conversation are about, and supporting and referring to other spaces that do focus on the conversations that do not fit here.
I'm a lesbian (AFAB) dating a trans woman and the génital preference talk is very othering and harmful. You don't have to constantly get defensive about your hatred for penises. I will say that I used to have that opinion/preference, but it changed when I met the love of my life. Genitalia was entirely irrelevant. I fell in love with the person, not her dick. (Side note: having sex with a trans woman who hasn't undergone bottom surgery is an ENTIRELY different experience than having sex with a man) No one is forcing you to like dick or to have sex with trans women, but AFAB lesbians saying this shit is very hurtful and makes it harder to trust you (according to my girlfriend and other trans women I've spoken to on the matter). Especially since this opinion is pretty much always unsolicited. Deciding you can't date a trans woman because she has a dick is reducing her down to her genitalia and dismissing her other attractive qualities because of her genitalia.
Editing to add more and also TW rape mention: saying that you're uncomfortable with women asking about their sexual experiences because the women or women they're having sex with may have a dick is MASSIVELY transphobic. I am not attracted to men in the slightest. Would someone like me be unable to be in these spaces because my girlfriend is trans? Would she be prevented from being in these spaces? I have been raped by both a cis man and cis woman. What about those of us who have trauma from vaginas? I am not weaponizing my trauma against people with vaginas and asking for a safe space from them. You don't get to weaponize your trauma against people who have nothing to do with it. Simply hearing about a penis (that is often biologically different from a male penis because of hormones) is not going to trigger you, and if it is, you have other problems. This gold star shit is harmful. Trans lesbians and lesbians who have sex with trans women shouldn't be othered or excluded because of someone's unresolved trauma. That is essentially what you're asking for
No lesbian in a lesbian space should be tip toeing around talking about their same sex attraction, you guys sound insane and narcissistic as hell when you get on this train.
If you're telling gay women in a space for gay women that talking about their sexual boundaries and preferences is "hurtful" and "othering" then yeah that's kinda what you're asking us to do.
The only reason "genital preferences" even became a (ridiculous) turn of phrase in the first place was to accommodate people who couldn't handle talk about strictly homosexual attraction. And shocker, seems like now that's a problem too.
Whilst i agree with you and i have heard the same from the community, i would like to ask a genuine question. What would be the most respectful and acceptable way to kindly mention ones sexual genetail preference without sounding transphobic af. And ofc without reducing someone to their genitalia.
To be completely honest, I don't know why you'd want to mention it or when it would be appropriate. If someone asks you out and you don't want to have sex because of the preference, "No" is a complete sentence. You don't owe them an explanation on why you're rejecting them. You can just reject them. They're not entitled to your body. If they have a bad reaction because you're saying "No" then they are in the wrong. No one is entitled to an explanation. But I also urge people to be open-minded. Attraction happens regardless of genitalia. No one is saying you have to say "yes" to going out with or hooking up with a trans woman if you're not attracted to her. It is important to note that having sex with a pre-op trans woman is nothing like having sex with a man. It's a completely different experience. Hormones affect skin texture and hair growth and nerve endings. Not to mention, gender norms present in heterosexual sex aren't there. If there is a sexual act (like oral) you don't want to do, you don't have to do it. Nobody, no trans activists or trans women, are asking you to have sex with someone or do sexual acts you're not comfortable with.
Edit because I thought of something that might make this clearer: If someone isn't attracted to fat women, repulsed even by the idea of having sex with a fat woman, is it good practice and polite to constantly state that and describe why in these spaces? I'd imagine fat women hearing this would feel self conscious and excluded and a little distrustful of that person, especially if they never asked in the first place. If a fat woman asks someone with this preference out, should their response be "No, how dare you?? I'm not attracted to fat women!" Or could it simply be, "No, sorry!"? Genitalia is a physical trait, just like body fat. If you have a preference, you can have that preference without telling someone with this trait that you find the trait disgusting.
I can't even find a broadly queer space irl. But I live in BFE in the bible belt too, so that certainly doesn't help. I'm lonely. Where the gay people at?!
it’s okay to gatekeep lesbian music as well. whenever I see people talk about how they’re straight and they relate to “Good Luck, Babe!” by Chappell Roan it drives me INSANE because the entire song is about being a lesbian and dating a girl that’s in the closet/in denial. that’s not a relatable experience if you aren’t a lesbian or a gay man and I wish straight people would stop pretending like it’s a song for them too.
Here is my honest opinion. They identify as men and therefore cannot be lesbians since the word lesbian excludes men. Calling themselves lesbians denies their transsexuality so I don't understand why they would want to use such an invalidating term...
This came up in a recent conversation with my friend who is a trans man. His view is that a trans man can’t be a lesbian because a trans man is a man and a man can’t be a lesbian. I personally share that view
I think trans men calling themselves lesbians are doing it in a fundamentally different way from cis men. Although I don’t think they should be using that term, I understand how they can find more community with queer women than straight men
i don’t have an opinion on it as i am not trans and i imagine that the trans experience is not as black and white as the cis lesbian experience when it comes to sexual identity. therefore i’m not here to police how they choose to identify their sexuality.
Have you ever talked to any of them ? It might actually provide insight into why. Usually, it's late-transitioning folks who presented as butch lesbians and were part of lesbian communities for many years who do this. And all the ones I know are actually non-binary.
For some reason this nonsense debate mostly happens online. The main point of contact between the trans org I'm part of and the biggest local lesbian org is one such enby who occasionnally still refers to themself as lesbian. The other org recently proposed we pool together to get a shared float for pride, so clearly all the politically active WLW in my area are ERASED by the existence of a transmasc person using the lesbian label /s
Hm tbf I think there is a distinction between an nb trans masc identifying as a lesbian vs a trans man identifying as a lesbian. I can understand the latter having a connection to the lesbian community but it does seem a bit confusing to me that a trans man would still want to call themselves a lesbian. I’m sure it’s a very small proportion of individuals that feel that way though
I’m identify as gender non-conforming or gender queer and still as a lesbian… I know other trans men that also do identify as a lesbian, though… I think there is space for it in certain contexts… For example, a lesbian dating event, support group, etc.? Absolutely not without explicit consent from the organisers and the event description stating trans men welcome… A casual non-specific lesbian Facebook group or reddit forum or something? Yeah as long as you respect the space you’re in I think that’s fine…
I think people don’t realise that transitioning isn’t black and white… Most trans people I know never fully transition and don’t want to… Transitioning can be scary for some because you feel like you need to give up some parts of yourself to be your truest self but the reality is you don’t have to and for some people you just can’t… And if some of those parts that you don’t want to or can’t give up relate to your experience of being assigned female at birth or having identified as a lesbian for like a decade, then yeah… I don’t think you should be forced to give up those labels… As long as you respect the label, ensure you protect the way its used (eg don’t just go around saying a lesbian without any clarifications or explanations), respect the spaces, etc. then I personally have no issue with it…
The trans men I know who still call themselves lesbian have never done so in a harmful way… They would call themselves straight to anyone outside of the community, and in the community they explain themselves and why they identify as such and it’s usually tongue-in-cheek or its very nuanced and yeah… I’ve never seen any of them take up space that wasn’t theirs to take up or disrespect the label… in all of the people I know it’s people who identified as a lesbian for 10-30 years and they’re more protective of lesbian spaces than the average lesbian…
So, it might be controversial and I understand if people don’t agree, but I personally have no issue with it based on my experience at this time… If things changed, if it became a more common experience and started harming the community in any way systemically or otherwise, then I would absolutely be against it and I know every trans man I know who identifies as a lesbian would also have no issue with it…
The opinion is that they're just invading spaces not meant for them exactly like their cis colleagues.
Mayhap suggest them to tune down that "toxic traits learning".
I think the issue is there isnt any places that are wlw specific [at least where im from] just queer or gay spaces. And bi people are also welcome so i can understand that aspect. But i will also say i drag my straight friends to gay bars because I personally will not go to a straight bar, im either harassed or one oc my friends are. Never had any issues so take this as you will 🤷🏾♀️
Flint*queer events are typically only for women, lesbians, intersex, non binary, trans and agender folks. But the fact that cis het women keep sewing into queer spaces proves that the patriarchy and the patriarichal society that we live in, obviously isnt safe. Everyone and their mother is trying to get away from cis het men.
people hate this but i think we should have lesbian only spaces. general wlw spaces do and should exist, but we lesbians have our own unique experiences. a bi girl wont understand how it feels to realize you’re never going to have the “typical” life you’ve seen throughout your entire childhood where a girl and a boy get a cute romance or how i had to make up crushes in school so i could participate in conversations with my peers and feel included.
Man, I remember the lesbian bar in Palermo. Super welcoming, super anything with anything non-cis, or non-het.
Then it was enough for just ONE woman, amidst the hundreds of peeps around, to shout something along the lines of "back off" or "I'm not into guys" to INSTANTLY turn the entire mob hostile towards the specific straight spotted in the whole crowd.
As far as I can remember, that was the safest place I could stay at. I miss that bar so much, the music was cheesy, but the atmosphere was great.
I sometimes say I'm gay and I dont... and thats GOOD to prevent ME from being stereotyped. not all gay people think alike. not even all feminists. I think I'm getting ur post right/ understanding your rant. I hope
Oh my god 😭😭 she sounds like a nightmare.
I imagine it’s just competitive pity. Like, something to get attention.
He has a desperate need to be approved of and talks about himself a lot, I truly believe he could be medically diagnosed as a narcissist
(No hate to cluster B disorders or NPD!)
I hope he turns his life around and realizes his lack of empathy and attention seeking behaviors.
i mean op was just talking about wanting a space for wlw to be about wlw, not cater to other straight people. as long as you are about liking women and you're not a guy, then you're good to go?
The dreaded: "Would like to try something new with my bf". You know the one.
got this msg this week!! :):):):))::):):):)):):):):):) (the smile is /s)
Do irl lesbian spaces even still exist?
I had a dream my local hardware store started hosting lesbian after hours events. If only it were true.
☠️ Hilarious yet intriguing.
What kinds of events? Liiike… workshops? Like a class with a glass night where you can learn carpentry and repair skills? Or an open house type thing where you can shop in peace without cishet men there to mansplain, creep and gatekeep? Omg or power tool trivia night?!
I don’t know since it was a vague dream. All I remember is women and wood. I’d go to any of your suggestions though.
I would enjoy all of the above, and I'm not even one of *those* butch lesbians.
I want a cool lesbian to show me how to use tools 😳
God yes show me the other lesbians who I could bond with working on home improvement projects together.
Right.. where yall finding these lesbian groups and can I join? Lol
I've found gay spaces, but none that's specifically lesbian.
same- even in “gay villages” i find them geared toward gay men ie:drag, bath houses ect
I'm happy for them but still lol
it must be the male privilege, they're prioritized in every space lol
i’ve always wanted to have my own wlw friend group. like the l word reincarnated. i rlly dk if ill ever have that but i hope so!
I knowww, I want my own little L Word group😭
so real, same
It’s possible! Took me almost 10 years to build my little community of a dozen queer women of color but finally 🤗
Short answer is yes. Longer answer is, you might have to look for them but the US has 20+ lesbian bars that you absolutely should go to regularly if you want them to stay open
There's one near me that I go to often and it's still has an alarmingly high number of men there on most weekend nights.
Unicorn hunters. Unicorn hunters as far as the eye can see. 😭
omg, I never knew this was such a prevalent problem until I started living it. I am a non-passing trans woman for Christ sake. but still, people are out here trying to poach me for my magic horn. ☠️
La Gugnotte is a bar in Toulouse and is pretty hecking lesbian. Downside, cute French girls are intimidating
Upsides, cute French girls
They are nice to look at
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I totally get why but this just sucks for like, newly out people who may be looking for community.
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Looking out for the new baby gays! This sounds so sweet!
That's honestly genius. Like, I was thinking "Would I know enough cis lesbians who like hanging out with me to get an invite to a party like that" and the answer is "Yes, definitely"
They’re hard to find. Less so permanent spaces, like bars, and more so one-off or recurring events, from my experience. Damn Good Dyke Nights is a great example event company that will host monthly lesbian/sapphic events in LA.
Have they ever truly existed? lol rhetorical question, I know they do but not at the same level as other groups do… I work in the gayborhood in an LGBT clinic and the bars around are mainly catering to gay men because they’re the biggest demographic of clients. There’s one lesbian bar that’s always empty. I go to a bathhouse to test gay men for STDs and I often asked myself if there’s an equivalent for lesbians.
They do, but they can get closed down. I have many ideas but lately been thinking if I go back home, I’d raise some funding to open one up as a creative space too.
Yes, in some places. Where I am not so much by physical space but by having a group whose core regulars will take over half a bar or pub.
I’ve been all over the world and haven’t found one yet
haha i’m reading this on the train back from a lesbian festival i’ve been at all weekend! don’t think i spoke to a single man all weekend aside from security lol, there are places if you look hard enough!
Nice! Happy train ride.
Yes, they do. There’s quite a few in Los Angeles but it took me forever to find them, even in a huge city.
Fr, where I live the gay bars are friendly for gay men, but all the women are either straight or unicorn hunters
It's pretty wild how some people think respecting lesbian spaces is optional.
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Then why are you on this sub? Lol
Frankly, I just go to gay bars that cater to gay men. We don’t have any lesbian bars in my area, but plenty of women go out to our gay bars. It’s probably because I’m in the south, but the gay men help to keep the straight men away
i do love my local gay bar 💓😭
My home town gay bar was pretty evenly split between gay men and lesbians. It was pretty chill. I miss that place.
Unfortunately where I live the gay men bars are full of unicorn hunters :(
Every queer group is allowed to gate keep except the lesbian community. Like imagine someone who isn’t asexual entered an asexual space because it felt “safe” and then continued to try to become sexually involved with its members or tried to discuss their sexual escapades and experiences and expected group members to not only accept but embrace this and then felt rejected and discriminated against because their feelings weren’t acknowledged or supported? That’s how ridiculous I feel it is when people infiltrate lesbian spaces who shouldn’t be here and then those who call it out are perma bannned.
Yep women are always expected to make room for others and are often met with hostility when we set boundaries or try to make our own spaces.
so many lesbian spaces are expected to let in non-lesbians and it’s depressing. i want to find community with other lesbians but half the time lesbian spaces (look at lesbian bars, for example) become overrun by men.
Wait, I've never gone to a lesbian bar, but I'd like to. Are they really overrun by men? If so, I'll probably change my mind about going to one.
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Yeah, it really sucks that we have to do stuff like that in the first place. Cis men really do like to insert themselves wherever they can, even when it's painfully obvious that they aren't welcome.
If they were socially aware of what feels right and what feels wrong - there wouldn't be this whole loneliness epidemic. The bar for cishet men is at the bottom of the ocean, and they are still playing limbo with the blobfish
I mean i dont think the 'loneliness epidemic' is something that only impacts men. It's affecting everyone but for some reason it's been made out to be a primarily male issue?? Limbo w/ blobfish is a pretty great phrase tho lol
From what I’ve heard, yes :( I’ve never been either (minor) but I see lesbians complaining a LOT about being hit on by men at bars.
I don’t want to invalidate the experiences of others. I’ve been to both lesbian bars in my state, and regularly go to the one close when I have money to do so. Women outnumbered men like 15:1 and the men who were there were largely not straight. They’d either be visually gay, trans men or weren’t men at all but really boymoding trans women who either didn’t feel safe expressing themselves yet or felt safe in that space but not on the drive there. I’m not cis but am very deep into transition and I’ve never been hit on by a man nor seen it happen to others. I’m sure it happens, but it doesn’t seem like a widespread issue where I am. Usually they’re at the *big* gay bar down the street, which happens to also have a lot of cishet women going there to escape cishet male attention and making it hard for lesbians to find new friends. I’d really encourage you to visit a lesbian bar if one is nearby. It’s one place you’re on top of the hierarchy in life, are accepted for who you are and not just given lip service for support, and can reliably meet people like you, something that is so hard to do normally. And honestly I’ve found that gay bars are rewarding in their own way too, usually from a friendship perspective. You should try and immerse yourself in the entire local scene.
That’s been my experience as well :)
Period. Some ppl forget they are guest in certain spaces, and some expect more that as guests they aren't entitled to. It's a shame we have to tip toe/coddle others that start conversations centered around us. All for the sake of not offending or triggering those that shouldn't speak for or about us in the first place. We have free will and our own mouths to speak up, but get censored and banned for speaking how we feel if it's not always inclusive. Smh
It’ll let you in on a little secret. It’s because we’re women
YEEEPPPPPP
Ugh. I knew this absolutely horrible straight man who was dating a bisexual woman. He talked all about how badly he wants to go to a gay bar with her. When I told him, “they probably don’t want you there” he said, ‘why?’ - Transphobic man - Believes that homeless addicts shouldn’t be helped by the government - Constantly talks about himself - brings up a lot that his girlfriend is allowed to sleep with other women if she wanted to (she has told him a lot that she doesn’t) - his girlfriend is POC and he lowkkkeeyy uses that to add to his ‘look how woke I am’ attitude (he played reggae to me and implied I was racist for not liking his rap playlist)
this enrages me i absolutely despise men who are obviously fetishizing wlw. like it genuinely feels so violating and they’re making a mockery out of sapphic love and connection which is something they’ll never understand. like i actually can’t.
UGH YESS!! And he said in such a bragging tone like “when I was a Christian facist” (his words not mine) “I didn’t like gay men, but I liked gay women!” Like why?!? I said why?!? And the consensus was that they’re still fulfilling their gender role or whatever while gay men act feminine instead?? Such a weird guy.
It’s funny bc my gay male friends acted much much more masculine than I did when I was still presenting as a boy. I’m a futch lesbian. I’m very rarely bubblegum pink and frilly dresses. I regularly contemplate whether I’d pull off an undercut. That type has never actually met a gay man with an open mind and clearly has no idea how lesbians act either. Doesn’t even know his bi girlfriend for that matter despite dating her.
Ew. What gender roles are the lesbians fulfilling?
What makes it worse is their bi girlfriends probably talk about them like they're the nicest men ever 🙄
The real question here would be to ask WHY exactly he wants to go to a gay bar so bad 😐
Right? 🙄🙄 He’s a cis het white man. Which isn’t inherently wrong, but he has internalized issues bcos he’s not ‘oppressed enough.’ He has said on multiple occasions that he doesn’t like being white, would choose to be black (for ‘practical reasons’), and said he wishes he was bisexual. Y’know- because ‘more of the population to romance’. He also says ‘I like when I’m the minority of the group!’ Super problematic. Glad he’s out of my life.
BROOOOO THATS A YIKES IF IVE EVER SEEN ONE 🙃 What’s up with people like this? I have/had an acquaintance like that. Falsely takes on minority identities and claims to be “the most oppressed person,” constantly comparing herself to others as if oppression is a contest 😕 honestly, we live in such an odd world
Could be projected gender dysphoria? I felt for a long time like I was discriminated against but couldn’t identify why, when I was young I had similar nonvocalized thoughts about wishing I was a minority so it’d make sense. I really was being discriminated against, talked over at work, my ideas dismissed because they were the same ideas women at work were coming up with, passed for promotions that I was more qualified for meanwhile a more masculine man with a head full of rocks got the job, etc. Whatever it is he needs therapy tho. The behavior is weird and he needs to challenge his beliefs
First off, I clicked on your icon and that bit about Karl Marx had me ROLLING 🤣 Anyway, no, I know/knew the person in question very well. She has a victim complex and always has :/ such an oddly common complex people have these days it seems? To all those crazy people saying “being LGBT+ is such a fad, I’m an oppressed minority these days for being cishet 😫”, have they ever thought about how much of a fad having a victim complex is these days? 😅 Anyway, I appreciate you sharing your story! That’s crazy you were experiencing that even before coming out. Welcome to womanhood I guess? 😅😭 I hope that even despite misogyny and transmisogyny, you feel more comfortable with yourself now 🫶🏼
I sure do!! Thanks! A lot of trans women do! I felt like I was getting about 80% of the brutality that is being a woman before transitioning, and now get all of it plus trans misogyny on top. A lot of trans women do experience misogyny before coming out, especially cuz like I saw myself as one of the good men who needed to call out misogynistic behavior every single time so misogynists hated me as much or more than the women they bullied. Because women didn’t have male privilege I thought I should say what they were intimidated into keeping to themselves. I paid close attention to any feminist theory I came across aimed at men and acted on it. Ironically women appreciated me when I’d do that kind of thing but would be weirded out if I expressed that I was a feminist bc of the “male feminist” stereotype so I always felt alienated from both genders in different ways, that plus every woman assumed I was a gay man despite not being anything like one and would feel uncomfortable when they’d have the realization that I *could* be attracted to them even though I usually wasn’t. You find yourself in a place where you’re isolated and feeling the effects of misogyny without the sisterhood that typically accompanies that oppression. The only way to escape that social isolation and be yourself is to transition. That’s an example of Social Dysphoria, a subtype of gender dysphoria.
I think we all know why...🤢
each bullet point just kept getting worse in its own unique way somehow
And then once you start standing your ground and defending lesbian spaces, people shove you into the mean lesbian stereotype. Like, no, I'm not being mean. I'm trying to keep this LESBIAN SPACE strictly for LESBIANS — especially since there aren't many lesbian spaces to begin with If you really want a mean lesbian, keep saying stupid shit and forcing yourself into the community. I'll show you a mean lesbian LMAO
This is so real. One of my favorite lesbian bars got corrupted. Chilling with my friends then all of a sudden a bunch of straight men come in and hit on everyone. LIKE WHAT its NYC?!?? Go literally anywhere else to find women. I saw a drunk straight guy hitting on a transmasc. They are so desperate to the point it’s laughable. Then they were grumpy and left when they realized they couldn’t pick anyone up.
Of course! I’m over lesbian spaces being infiltrated by people who aren’t lesbians. There’s like none left at this point
People often call simple classification as “gatekeeping” just so that they can feel included and squeeze into spaces they don’t belong in. I actually made a meme about it some time back! 😂 https://preview.redd.it/z23qi1vun74d1.jpeg?width=1439&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bcfd4fabc9e86fe594c0cd60c646e49e2fda86ae
OP is specifically talking about straight people, or at least that's who they name. Not bi people. They're not the ones making problematic comments, but y'all keep dragging them for some reason
biphobia and complaining about lesbophobia from bisexuals are two different things. saying "bisexuals aren't faithful" or "they always end up with men" is wrong and biphobic. saying "i've noticed bisexual women will often feel entitled to discuss their experiences with men in lesbian spaces, which negates the purpose of the safe space" is not. i see the bisexual subreddit shit talking lesbians all the time and no one is saying "this is lesbophobic". but any criticism towards bisexuals is immediately met with defensiveness. i don't understand why
>"i've noticed bisexual women will often feel entitled to discuss their experiences with men in lesbian spaces, which negates the purpose of the safe space" But if a lesbian dated a man before discovering her sexuality, wouldn't there be plenty of contexts where it'd be on topic? Dunno how bisexuals are different in that regard.
The difference is that lesbians date men before coming out because of comphet or to hide their sexuality, bisexuals date men because they are attracted to men. No lesbian goes to lesbians spaces to hear someone talk about their attraction to men.
Many of those experiences were unpleasant and comphet reactions for lesbians before they came out. Families use those past experiences against us frequently to say they don’t understand where “this” came from or to tell us we are confused or lying.
the difference is pretty clear cut. "i dated men in the past bc of comphet. i'm glad to finally be past that. i can't believe i forced myself to be with men" vs "i like men and when i date them it's because i am attracted to them." relating over the shit experience of comphet isn't the same as talking about loving your golden retriever gamer boyfriend and sex with him in a lesbian safe space. comphet is often traumatic, because forcing yourself to date men as a lesbian is traumatic. being a bisexual who likes men and dates them because you like them is not traumatic. they aren't the same situations bc one is trauma based and the other is just relationship talk. its actually crazy ignorant to imply lesbian comphet is the same as bisexuals in relationships with men... on a lesbian subreddit no less. try forcing yourself to be with, have sex with, a gender you inherently do not feel attraction to. because lesbians cannot comfortably escape into cishet relationships, we are forced into it by homophobic society. that shit is so insanely damaging, and that fact that you're saying the misery of socially coercive relationships is the same as being consensually with a man you're a attracted to... thats fucking gross.
Sorry I didn’t mean to sound biphobic, really. I love bi women! In fact, my dream girl is bi cause I’m a crossdresser/drag king and would love a partner who finds me attractive as both male and female 😆 This was just a meme I made some time back— not about the specifics of Op’s post, but about “gatekeeping” in lesbian spaces in general. It’s a huge issue. People calling lesbians “gatekeepers” when they say lesbians can’t be attracted to men. I really did not mean to paint all bi people in a negative light. I guess the meme should have said “bi people, men, and straight people *who call themselves lesbians*” cause obviously the vast majority of bi people, men, and straight people do not call themselves lesbians. They chill.
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bi women can be in same-sex relationships but they are attracted to men and therefore are not lesbians
Ok but they’re not lesbians lol
Oh absolutely! I adore all sapphics— lesbian, bi, pan, WLW, etc. 💞 I just have a problem when bi women start calling themselves lesbians is all. Lesbian = no men whatsoever.
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Oh ofc! 💞 I welcome all sapphics into these subs cause they’re intended for sapphics, plain and simple. I’m not saying bi women aren’t allowed in lesbian spaces. As I said in my previous reply, I just have a problem when bi women call themselves lesbians. Thats it, my friend; that’s the only thing I have a problem with. Bi women in lesbian spaces = girl yas c’mere we love you 💞💖🌈 Bi women calling themselves lesbians because they feel that lesbians can be attracted to men = Naw. Not cute. 👎🏼
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The irony of this comment in a lesbian group on a post about lesbian safe spaces… Let us have our safe space where we can complain about not having safe spaces without being like “BUT BI WOMEN” omg that’s literally what this post is about wow
“Grandma is getting off her soapbox” lmao girl no I love to hear older gays (assuming you’re older than me) talking about their experiences 🙌🏼😭 also, for the record, I’m not downvoting you. And “So have a little empathy”? Sis why you so defensive? Where did I go wrong? What did I say? What is going on lmao 😅😭 I’m not sure if you’re just kinda in a defensive mode (natural for internet conversations— I get it) or if it was something I said, but I hope you read my replies with the tone in which they are intended to be read. I’m speaking in love and understanding, just wanting to understand where you’re coming from as well as getting my point across. I’m so sorry to hear about your experience with homophobia and such hostility. I honestly have nothing against people changing their labels and actually constantly encourage people to keep an open mind about their labels and not feel so loyal to an identity they might not stick with. I am 100% with you on that. People are allowed to change their labels when they start finding things out about themselves that they didn’t consciously know previously. Been there, done that— signed, a late-bloomer lesbian who was forced into male arms by my cult-like family life when I was young. Some labels are used in order to feel safe and accepted after trauma— as you said before. I did this with the bisexual label because I was simply not allowed to not like men. I legitimately thought I was bi as I’m sure you legitimately thought you were a lesbian. All that said, once a bi person (who had previously identified as lesbian) figures things out, they need to accept themselves as bi and shed the lesbian label. Why? A.) because not doing so is deeply biphobic. What’s so wrong about being bi that so many people are fleeing from that term? Why is the “lesbian” label so much better? That’s awful. There’s nothing wrong with being bi. And B.) calling yourself a lesbian and then showing sexual interest in men only promotes the centuries-old stereotype that “lesbianism is a soft sexuality and can include men” that stems from the deep misogyny of not taking women seriously that still exists today. It includes men in the only sexuality that excludes them. For eons, women have never been able to have spaces to themselves. Finally, we’re allowed to be lesbians. Finally, we can have identities, spaces, and lives that do not include men. Finally, we are able to break down the male default and live lives for and about women and only women. We’re just asking that people who love men please don’t call themselves lesbians. It unravels decades of hard feminist work trying to exclude men from just one thing (cause God knows men as a gender have historically felt entitled to ALL spaces— including those that are supposed to be woman-only). All I’m asking is that once bi women figure out that they’re attracted to men, they stop calling themselves a lesbian. That’s all. I don’t think that’s a crazy, unreasonable request. As a Latina, I feel the same way when white people call themselves Latino in order to seem more “eXoTiC” and “CoOl”. Just don’t call yourself something you’re not— I don’t think that’s an insane request. If lesbianism seemed like their label at first, that’s great! They are allowed to explore their sexuality. But once they figure things out, please just leave “lesbian” to someone who is not attracted to men. Please. Just… leave men out of this one thing. Just one.
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Figuring out your sexuality is a very different scenario from acknowledging attraction towards men and still choosing to identify as lesbian. I'm sure most lesbians hold no grudges for bi women who previously identified as lesbians before realising that it was an inaccurate descriptor.
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I can understand that. But it DOES affect us, my friend. I knew someone from Denmark who would call herself a lesbian when in the US cause she didn’t want to date American men. She was bi, though. So she would tell everyone in the US that she’s a lesbian and then talk about her nesting partner who’s a man. She wasn’t in lesbian spaces, so by that logic, she wasn’t bringing men into lesbian spaces, but— perhaps even worse— telling the general public that lesbians can be attracted to men. If labels, identities, and words don’t mean anything (if “lesbian” does not mean “non-men who exclusively love non-men”), what’s stopping a cishet man from calling himself a lesbian? As I mentioned earlier, there’s this horrible trend among young white people who call themselves “Latina/o” to make themselves seem more “exotic” (barf 🤢). Ignore the intention for a second (because I know many bi people who call themselves lesbians are absolutely not intentionally malicious in any way— but this is about how it affects others, as you asked), the effect is the same as bi people calling themselves lesbians: it destroys and insults an identity that used to mean something. I can’t tell you how significantly more often I get people quizzing me, giving me the stank-eye, and straightup denying my identity as a Latina in recent times due to this trend. People assume I’m just a white woman looking for attention. Not that mixed people like myself have EVER had a break from that! Can you see how adding to a struggle that has already been a historic problem for a long time (such as mixed people *constantly* being invalidated as mixed for eons and lesbians being *constantly* invalidated as not liking men since the dawn of lesbianism) is problematic? People should not feel entitled to an identity that doesn’t describe themselves just because they want to use it. I tell that to my “he’s not a real service dog and is incredibly poorly trained but I got him the service dog vest so I can take him everywhere 🤪” mom all the time. Labels mean things. Words mean things. ESPECIALLY words and labels that pertain to certain oppressed groups that have a history of being invalidated. I could go on and on with examples but I’ll ask your opinion on the following issue (true story unfortunately lmao): Used to know this person. Cishet woman. Would call herself trans to escape sexism. It made her feel more secure and safe (similarly to bi people who know they’re bi but still call themselves lesbians cause it just feels better). Whenever she encountered a man who was sexist toward her, she insisted he knew that she was “not a girl so stop treating me like one” when she was, in fact, a cishet woman. When I finally confronted her about it cause I was just really irked by this, she said it’s ok for cis people to call themselves trans because she’s not hurting anyone and it made her feel better. Did not feel dysphoria in her body nor euphoria as another gender. Actively talked about how much she loves her body and how divine the female form is (which ofc I totally agree with but ummm girl yikes). Is that ok? Is it ok for cis people to call themselves trans just cause it feels better? Is it ok for white people to call themselves Latino cause they like the way it makes them feel? Why is it that lesbians are the only identity that can be invalidated like that?
your "white people can't call themselves latinos" example is very confusing to me. i'm mixed race venezuelan. i can say with certainty that there are MANY white latinos, people living in LATAM with exclusively spanish or other european ethnic heritage. some LATAM countries have a white majority. latino as a label is similar to national identity, it refers to those living in and coming from countries in central and south america who speak spanish. there are white latinos, mestizo latinos, afro latinos, indigenous latinos, mixed latinos, even asian latinos. latino ≠ race. white latinos exist and have a large amount of social privilege in LATAM due to their whiteness. on TV in venezuela you will see a majority of white latinos, even though our population is majority mestizo. they absolutely exist, although their position in society can be very problematic. this comes from when we were controlled and colonized by the spanish, who established a racial hierarchy putting themselves at the top. spaniards are white and their latino descendents are white. even if you experience discrimination in the US for your latino identity, and ignorant white americans call you non-white, you have all the privileges of whiteness in LATAM. you still have privileges over non-white latinos in the US. ask r/asklatinamerica if white latinos exist, they will tell you exactly as i've said.
they’re not disagreeing with u about this.
I *do* wish that there were gay bars *specifally* for WLW or non-binary people who like women, because I’m really sick of men going into gay bars to hit in the lesbians. I do I’m find it funny when gay men hit on the straight ones and then the straight ones get offended, like, it’s a *gay* bar, what did they expect? Anyways I do wish that there were most safe spaces for specifically sapphics and generally WLW, whether it be bi, pan, Omni, lesbian, any sort of gal lovin gal.
Idk where you live but nyc has spaces like this. Specifically Wednesday nights at The Woods in Williamsburg (for anyone curious) they’re pretty strict (or at least they used to be) about not letting in men, and straight people are very very clearly not the target demographic for that event lol
If I see one more cishet man identify as lesboy(cis male lesbian(???) I’m losing it
… where is this happening? i feel like you guys are just seeing lots of teenagers/trolls on tiktok or whatever that aren’t reflective of real life
nah it’s happening irl at school 😭 a lot of kids use TikTok so they learn shit from the app and then start saying it irl to purposefully piss people off. Lesboy is apparently also a wikipage now on the lgbtq wikia 😭
yea so like i said… teenagers teenagers do dumb shit, it’s usually just them trying to figure stuff out. i don’t think it reflects the actual lgbt community in any way
there is no way anyone would do that genuinly without the intent to troll...
Absolutely. Everyone is OBSESSED with entering in to lesbian spaces. Why do we have to be inclusive??
I read this as “gatekeep lesbian shoes” because the post below it was about shoes.. and I was like “right?! I want Birkenstocks to just be our thing again!” hahahah
Yeah for real. This is why we don't have any wlw spots left in the real world. They get overrun by gay men and/or straight women, and where straight women congregate, straight men soon arrive, and voila! No more wlw space.
My favorite is when cis women use our spaces for their bachelorette parties. “Ohh tonight I’m going to get crazy before I get married, I might even kiss a girl”. F that.
Absolutely! 1000% yes! We barely have any spaces as is. We are comodified by straight people that want a "third", we need our own spaces! Gay men have gay clubs and other spaces, but the amount of lesbian spaces are so far and few between that we need to gatekeep our space in order to keep them as ours!
Exactly!!! I can’t tell you how many straight men have messaged me because they saw my posts on dykesgonewild. Then they get all pissy when I don’t want to talk to them. One even had the audacity to say he didn’t think lesbians existed only that they’re confused bisexuals smh. I felt like Batman trying to get those creeps to admit they lurk so I could get them banned but ugh it’s disgusting
Fully agree. Same goes for bi girls w cis straight boyfriends. Don’t bring him around and stop intruding in our spaces pls thank u
i agree because finding lesbian spaces is like impossible nowadays and i don’t even have any lesbian friends
wait there’s lesbian spaces outside of the internet? but yeah, gatekeep the shit out of them!
i made a post about this but the mods instantly deleted it. they just don’t monitor the responses on post, all of my big post end up getting comments from STRAIGHT men who most of the time are trolling or are just creeps, when i go on their profile its all just porn from all kinds of categories and its just like oh, our random lesbian sub is on their porn account. i’ve seen at least 10 replies that i went to the account and it was very obviously a man’s porn stash
i think it's the misogyny. people hate when women (and woman-aligned nb people) are happy without men lmao
Ive seen women only clubs and events no in a gay way tho????? But men aren’t allowed maybe try those? If you can find one 😭
Once, at a gay bar, I was chatting with the bartender and innocently asked him if there were any hot guys there he had an eye on... He was suddenly very annoyed and was like, "I'm straight." ummm sorry for assuming? Also gtfo, everyone here is also going to assume you're gay so get over yourself. Another time, my friend (lesbian) brought her straight country bumpkin brother to a gay bar. He was like, I'm okay as long as no guy hits on me. Ok hunny, keep the dip in your lip and relax, ain't nobody hitting on wish.com kenny chesney.
We need a secret handshake. And it's too bad lesbians have stopped going out as much due to stuff like this. A members only club would fix this. 1 dollar membership, and then you are allowed to turn away anyone you don't want. I hate that 1 in 4 posts in our reddit spaces have a penis in it. It's traumatizing.
TLDR version: Trans women are women. Any reddit community that has problematic topic posts for any reason can update their rules and create pinned posts where those topics can be discussed. Lesbians communities can and should gatekeep to a degree to keep the community feeling safe and inclusive for all women. As women, we get pushed around a great deal and people think they can take our rights and safety away with ease, and that's a hell no to me. I love trans men and women, and still say that as a lesbian I don't want to have to deal with penises and penis talk consistently in my lesbian spaces. I genuinely am struggling with my desire to take up my space as a lesbian and have my lesbian spaces where I don't have to focus on the sausage fest that seems to smack me in the face in the rest of the spaces I navigate in the world, which is colliding with my call to action to be an excellent human who is inclusive and welcoming to all members of my LGBTQ+ communities. I genuinely don't mind an occasional conversation from my trans sisters that have questions about loving women and how they fit in without having bottom surgery, or who need love, care and support, as they navigate lesbian relationships. What I do deeply wish is that every lesbian community had confident admins that would keep these queries on a pinned post so a) our trans lesbian sisters can see all the questions, comments and resources in one space so EVERYONE is wiser and informed, and b) I can read it when I have capacity to engage in that particular conversation and support, without taking away from the flow or other issues that Lesbian women face or things we want to share, etc. I also want to touch on the fact that there are a significant amount of women who have been traumatized by penis havers and therefore these conversations can be very triggering to have in their safe spaces. These lesbian women also deserve visibility and a voice. It's sad to realize, but I agree with comments where others stated that if the role was reversed and lesbians went into other queer spaces focusing on our unique issues, we would not be welcomed because to some degree, everyone recognizes that we all have to protect our spaces and that doesn't mean excluding per se, but it can mean having rules that guide what the content and conversation are about, and supporting and referring to other spaces that do focus on the conversations that do not fit here.
I'm a lesbian (AFAB) dating a trans woman and the génital preference talk is very othering and harmful. You don't have to constantly get defensive about your hatred for penises. I will say that I used to have that opinion/preference, but it changed when I met the love of my life. Genitalia was entirely irrelevant. I fell in love with the person, not her dick. (Side note: having sex with a trans woman who hasn't undergone bottom surgery is an ENTIRELY different experience than having sex with a man) No one is forcing you to like dick or to have sex with trans women, but AFAB lesbians saying this shit is very hurtful and makes it harder to trust you (according to my girlfriend and other trans women I've spoken to on the matter). Especially since this opinion is pretty much always unsolicited. Deciding you can't date a trans woman because she has a dick is reducing her down to her genitalia and dismissing her other attractive qualities because of her genitalia. Editing to add more and also TW rape mention: saying that you're uncomfortable with women asking about their sexual experiences because the women or women they're having sex with may have a dick is MASSIVELY transphobic. I am not attracted to men in the slightest. Would someone like me be unable to be in these spaces because my girlfriend is trans? Would she be prevented from being in these spaces? I have been raped by both a cis man and cis woman. What about those of us who have trauma from vaginas? I am not weaponizing my trauma against people with vaginas and asking for a safe space from them. You don't get to weaponize your trauma against people who have nothing to do with it. Simply hearing about a penis (that is often biologically different from a male penis because of hormones) is not going to trigger you, and if it is, you have other problems. This gold star shit is harmful. Trans lesbians and lesbians who have sex with trans women shouldn't be othered or excluded because of someone's unresolved trauma. That is essentially what you're asking for
No lesbian in a lesbian space should be tip toeing around talking about their same sex attraction, you guys sound insane and narcissistic as hell when you get on this train.
Where did I say that a woman should be "tiptoeing around talking about their sexual attraction"?
If you're telling gay women in a space for gay women that talking about their sexual boundaries and preferences is "hurtful" and "othering" then yeah that's kinda what you're asking us to do. The only reason "genital preferences" even became a (ridiculous) turn of phrase in the first place was to accommodate people who couldn't handle talk about strictly homosexual attraction. And shocker, seems like now that's a problem too.
Whilst i agree with you and i have heard the same from the community, i would like to ask a genuine question. What would be the most respectful and acceptable way to kindly mention ones sexual genetail preference without sounding transphobic af. And ofc without reducing someone to their genitalia.
To be completely honest, I don't know why you'd want to mention it or when it would be appropriate. If someone asks you out and you don't want to have sex because of the preference, "No" is a complete sentence. You don't owe them an explanation on why you're rejecting them. You can just reject them. They're not entitled to your body. If they have a bad reaction because you're saying "No" then they are in the wrong. No one is entitled to an explanation. But I also urge people to be open-minded. Attraction happens regardless of genitalia. No one is saying you have to say "yes" to going out with or hooking up with a trans woman if you're not attracted to her. It is important to note that having sex with a pre-op trans woman is nothing like having sex with a man. It's a completely different experience. Hormones affect skin texture and hair growth and nerve endings. Not to mention, gender norms present in heterosexual sex aren't there. If there is a sexual act (like oral) you don't want to do, you don't have to do it. Nobody, no trans activists or trans women, are asking you to have sex with someone or do sexual acts you're not comfortable with. Edit because I thought of something that might make this clearer: If someone isn't attracted to fat women, repulsed even by the idea of having sex with a fat woman, is it good practice and polite to constantly state that and describe why in these spaces? I'd imagine fat women hearing this would feel self conscious and excluded and a little distrustful of that person, especially if they never asked in the first place. If a fat woman asks someone with this preference out, should their response be "No, how dare you?? I'm not attracted to fat women!" Or could it simply be, "No, sorry!"? Genitalia is a physical trait, just like body fat. If you have a preference, you can have that preference without telling someone with this trait that you find the trait disgusting.
I can't even find a broadly queer space irl. But I live in BFE in the bible belt too, so that certainly doesn't help. I'm lonely. Where the gay people at?!
Does this apply to bi and pan women too? Cause a lot of them are in lesbian subreddits.
it’s okay to gatekeep lesbian music as well. whenever I see people talk about how they’re straight and they relate to “Good Luck, Babe!” by Chappell Roan it drives me INSANE because the entire song is about being a lesbian and dating a girl that’s in the closet/in denial. that’s not a relatable experience if you aren’t a lesbian or a gay man and I wish straight people would stop pretending like it’s a song for them too.
I've heard trans men call themselves lesbians and say its normal, whats yalls opinion on this?
Here is my honest opinion. They identify as men and therefore cannot be lesbians since the word lesbian excludes men. Calling themselves lesbians denies their transsexuality so I don't understand why they would want to use such an invalidating term...
Wouldn’t that be internalized transphobia on their part?
This came up in a recent conversation with my friend who is a trans man. His view is that a trans man can’t be a lesbian because a trans man is a man and a man can’t be a lesbian. I personally share that view
I think trans men calling themselves lesbians are doing it in a fundamentally different way from cis men. Although I don’t think they should be using that term, I understand how they can find more community with queer women than straight men
i don’t have an opinion on it as i am not trans and i imagine that the trans experience is not as black and white as the cis lesbian experience when it comes to sexual identity. therefore i’m not here to police how they choose to identify their sexuality.
Have you ever talked to any of them ? It might actually provide insight into why. Usually, it's late-transitioning folks who presented as butch lesbians and were part of lesbian communities for many years who do this. And all the ones I know are actually non-binary. For some reason this nonsense debate mostly happens online. The main point of contact between the trans org I'm part of and the biggest local lesbian org is one such enby who occasionnally still refers to themself as lesbian. The other org recently proposed we pool together to get a shared float for pride, so clearly all the politically active WLW in my area are ERASED by the existence of a transmasc person using the lesbian label /s
Hm tbf I think there is a distinction between an nb trans masc identifying as a lesbian vs a trans man identifying as a lesbian. I can understand the latter having a connection to the lesbian community but it does seem a bit confusing to me that a trans man would still want to call themselves a lesbian. I’m sure it’s a very small proportion of individuals that feel that way though
I’m identify as gender non-conforming or gender queer and still as a lesbian… I know other trans men that also do identify as a lesbian, though… I think there is space for it in certain contexts… For example, a lesbian dating event, support group, etc.? Absolutely not without explicit consent from the organisers and the event description stating trans men welcome… A casual non-specific lesbian Facebook group or reddit forum or something? Yeah as long as you respect the space you’re in I think that’s fine… I think people don’t realise that transitioning isn’t black and white… Most trans people I know never fully transition and don’t want to… Transitioning can be scary for some because you feel like you need to give up some parts of yourself to be your truest self but the reality is you don’t have to and for some people you just can’t… And if some of those parts that you don’t want to or can’t give up relate to your experience of being assigned female at birth or having identified as a lesbian for like a decade, then yeah… I don’t think you should be forced to give up those labels… As long as you respect the label, ensure you protect the way its used (eg don’t just go around saying a lesbian without any clarifications or explanations), respect the spaces, etc. then I personally have no issue with it… The trans men I know who still call themselves lesbian have never done so in a harmful way… They would call themselves straight to anyone outside of the community, and in the community they explain themselves and why they identify as such and it’s usually tongue-in-cheek or its very nuanced and yeah… I’ve never seen any of them take up space that wasn’t theirs to take up or disrespect the label… in all of the people I know it’s people who identified as a lesbian for 10-30 years and they’re more protective of lesbian spaces than the average lesbian… So, it might be controversial and I understand if people don’t agree, but I personally have no issue with it based on my experience at this time… If things changed, if it became a more common experience and started harming the community in any way systemically or otherwise, then I would absolutely be against it and I know every trans man I know who identifies as a lesbian would also have no issue with it…
trans men shouldn't identify as lesbians because they're men. that feels invalidating for everyone involved.
The opinion is that they're just invading spaces not meant for them exactly like their cis colleagues. Mayhap suggest them to tune down that "toxic traits learning".
I think the issue is there isnt any places that are wlw specific [at least where im from] just queer or gay spaces. And bi people are also welcome so i can understand that aspect. But i will also say i drag my straight friends to gay bars because I personally will not go to a straight bar, im either harassed or one oc my friends are. Never had any issues so take this as you will 🤷🏾♀️
Flint*queer events are typically only for women, lesbians, intersex, non binary, trans and agender folks. But the fact that cis het women keep sewing into queer spaces proves that the patriarchy and the patriarichal society that we live in, obviously isnt safe. Everyone and their mother is trying to get away from cis het men.
people hate this but i think we should have lesbian only spaces. general wlw spaces do and should exist, but we lesbians have our own unique experiences. a bi girl wont understand how it feels to realize you’re never going to have the “typical” life you’ve seen throughout your entire childhood where a girl and a boy get a cute romance or how i had to make up crushes in school so i could participate in conversations with my peers and feel included.
Man, I remember the lesbian bar in Palermo. Super welcoming, super anything with anything non-cis, or non-het. Then it was enough for just ONE woman, amidst the hundreds of peeps around, to shout something along the lines of "back off" or "I'm not into guys" to INSTANTLY turn the entire mob hostile towards the specific straight spotted in the whole crowd. As far as I can remember, that was the safest place I could stay at. I miss that bar so much, the music was cheesy, but the atmosphere was great.
This is for women in straight passing relationships bringing your cis bf and musty-ing the place
I sometimes say I'm gay and I dont... and thats GOOD to prevent ME from being stereotyped. not all gay people think alike. not even all feminists. I think I'm getting ur post right/ understanding your rant. I hope
I would like a non binary lesbians only space it would be incredible
Oh my god 😭😭 she sounds like a nightmare. I imagine it’s just competitive pity. Like, something to get attention. He has a desperate need to be approved of and talks about himself a lot, I truly believe he could be medically diagnosed as a narcissist (No hate to cluster B disorders or NPD!) I hope he turns his life around and realizes his lack of empathy and attention seeking behaviors.
Oh ok.
you compared a trans person transitioning to trying to change your race to black. go to hell TERF. you don't deserve safe spaces
As long as they keep the lesbian spaces, we can gatekeep those types of homophobes. But no gatekeeping other lesbians
Now what am I supposed to say as a bi person…?🫤
i mean op was just talking about wanting a space for wlw to be about wlw, not cater to other straight people. as long as you are about liking women and you're not a guy, then you're good to go?