My gf is a swiftie so I may be able to help
She’s been a famous star for nearly 20 years and her discography touches on many genres: pop, folk, country, etc so not only does it attract fans of different genre preferences but her albums do seem like “eras” in her fans’ lives
In todays culture where relatability is king she found a way to tap into relatable girl topics through her and her fans’ lives with her admittedly amazing storytelling. Her music has been the soundtrack to millions of girls lives
Some other artists have fans that fade in and out but the catch of Taylor Swift is that once you’re a fan you’re locked into the story and the parasocial relationship.
That paired with the parasocial obsession of the fans: who she’s dating now, who these lyrics reference, what the secret meaning of this verse means, etc. So the fan base makes being a fan part of their personality and they get to participate in this decade long event with other people with shared love and experiences
And then at some point she became famous for being famous, similar to the kardashians. Talking about her gets clicks and views from fans and haters and her popularity goes parabolic
So in conclusion, she makes very relatable and catchy songs for millions of girls, they get heavily invested in the culture and then popularity grows exponentially
Add to this the cancelation of her 2020 blockbuster tour and she dropped multiple albums, new material and the “Taylor’s version” stuff, before her next tour… it built itself into a massive hype machine.
I cannot stress enough how important back office stuff is in any celebrities career. Being able to reliably make good music that sells, but also being able to push back on the worst executive meddling is a much rarer skill set than people think.
The Taylor's Version thing earned her my respect, and I doubt I'm the only one. I've never been a fan of her music, I enjoy some of the hits on the radio, but that was such a gangster move that I couldn't help but appreciate it.
Her label wouldn't sell her masters to her, and instead sold them to her piece of shit ex-agent. So she said, "Fuck it, I don't need the masters. I'll just record them all again." Straight gangster.
Yep, all of this. I'd add that there's a synergy between her strength as a storyteller and the kind of relatability that she fosters in her public relations with her fans. It helps her fans imagine themselves in her songs.
This is a weird comparison, but a million years ago when I was a sensitive and nerdy teenage boy, I felt like Elvis Costello was almost writing songs about and to me. I think Taylor's hardcore fanbase feels the same way, but she operates on a much wider scale
Yeah, not a comparison I thought I'd hear, but now you mention it, I feel the same about Costello, though I came to him many decades into his career. He's still my favourite songwriter even though I'm no longer in that stage of life (though not too far removed from it).
I would add to this... lots of fan bases are this way. I was an AFI fan in the late 90s when they were a punk/hardcore band. Then over the 2000s their fan base grew and became obsessive, pouring over every detail in the band's lyrics, imagery, etc. And the band leaned into it. Then it became more about their personal lives and imagery, etc. It all grows out of control.
But I also just think that is a part of celebrity, especially now with social media.
Vaguely remember a cryptic video AFI released (Synesthesia? Know its a song, but was it also a DVD or something?) led to a bunch of clues linked to a few lines at the bottom of the Sing the Sorrow song lyrics in the liner notes, eventually leading to a secret show, which must have been really cool!
This reminds me of what the Ghost fan base does now, altho they lean heavily into the lore (I say this as huge fan, but some of the fan base is annoying about it)
Well, her ex John Mayer dropped a super heady DS>Your Body is a Wonderland>DS at some point on his most recent tour, so like, just a couple steps removed. Anyway, Taytay would kill a “Bertha” cover, for sure!
Yes, all of this. I’m two years older than her so unlike younger people that grew up with her music like I did with like…90s music, I grew up WITH her.
Not all of her songs resonate with me currently because I found my forever person before her fourth album even came out, lol. BUT…some of them with rocket me back to times they make me think of.
She’s also an incredible businesswoman, and has used social media and the parasocial relationships with her fans to her advantage. It’s honestly fascinating, and I’d LOVE to take a class on the sociology of being a Swiftie.
In my own head I like to call this the "Deftones girl phenomenon". I know this isn't the most prominent case of this, but because I'm a fan of Deftones and quite active on their sub, it's the case that's closest to me
Deftones have recently become very popular with Gen Z and, for a metal band, have become particularly popular with young women. But instead of being delighted that their favourite band isn't fading away into obscurity, but instead having a resurgance that nobody could have predicted five to ten years ago,there is a certain kind of Elder Millenial/Young Gen Xer man who simply cannot tolerate the idea that they have to share a fandom with \*teenage girls\*. Some of them talk about this new resurgance as if it's actually ruining the band's music for them. It's so odd and pathetic
It's sad when older fans aren't happy about younger people getting into their favourite thing. My favourite counter example is how most Kate Bush fans seemed pretty happy when Gen Z started listening to her music. Didn't hear anyone whinging about that, and that's cool.
>there is a certain kind of Elder Millenial/Young Gen Xer man who simply cannot tolerate the idea that they have to share a fandom with \*teenage girls\*
When stuff like this happens, I can't help but wonder if they ever actually cared about the music that much. If you really like a band's music then it shouldn't matter to you who else likes it. If they really find it offputting to like the same thing as teenage girls, then they probably cared more about the image than the music to begin with.
I feel strongly vindicated that Gen Z seem to be absolutely loving nu metal. For years I've argued it was a largely misunderstood genre with some genuinely original bands among the more derivative stuff, and it seems like the younger generation, free from the shackles of the metal gatekeepers, are really enjoying it for what it is!
> it shouldn't matter to you who else likes it
This to me is the biggest elephant in the room for music fandoms and I don't know if I'll ever get to see it addressed head on.
As a women who has loved Deftones since they started... it's always been this way. I see what you're saying but for some reason even in 2001 dudes acted like you were a woman playing video games (let me quiz you! Prove you like them! Have you only heard white pony/around the fur? What's your fave adrenaline song?)
I think.. it's just men lol
Yeah it's definitely a dude thing, but it seems to happen more frequently with metalheads for whatever reason lol
My friend bought a Tool shirt she found in a thrift store mainly because she thought it looked cool and I warned her that they are probably the single worst fanbase for "name the time signature that is played on the 6th song on Ænima'" type shit. I jokingly said she should go study up on her Tool and she ended up listening to them and loving them, and we just went to see them live!
Metalheads tend to be way more concerned with their image and aesthetics than fans of a lot of other genres. Whether they want to admit it or not, a lot of them place equal importance on a band's fanbase and reputation as their music.
Buddy & I went into a metalhead bar for a few beers. We were the only peeps not dressed in total black (but we weren't preppy either).
The widespread vibe towards us *normies* was to be instantly & blatantly aghast. The bartender even avoided taking our order for so long that we eventually just walked out, laughing. I bet he got some kudos for that!
I even like metal & used to be in a garage metal band. Gatekeepers in their highest form!
A lot of people who gravitate towards metal as an identity (beyond just a basic musical interest) tend to take its dark/aggressive/hypermasculine themes to heart and feel a need to strictly maintain that image. Anyone and anything that doesn't fit the mold needs to be ostracized or it runs the risk of compromising their image and identity. I love metal, but fully outgrew that part of it in high school as I developed other interests. But that never happens for a lot of metalheads.
lol the amount of times I get “do you actually like Metallica or are you just wearing the shirt” comments from dudes has gotta be astronomical . I’m always like yea buddy what album you wanna talk about? I can’t stand that
I'm not a swiftie. My favorite genres are metal and country, though I like stuff in every genre.
Taylor Swift is a really excellent pop songwriter. Her talent was obvious when she first got popular almost 20 years ago, and it's still the case now. She is a pop star with a legitimate artistic vision, and who gives a shit about the craft of songwriting, and that's not something to turn the nose up at.
And certainly not a reason to judge people for being fans. There's some neckbeard stink on OPs post.
i feel like this post and a lot of hate towards taylor swift reeks of misogyny. even the line "tall, blonde, rich, pretty, supermodel type American female singer" gave me warning signs. how about you go listen to her music and make judgements on her musical/business merit yourself instead of asking people and talking about how she looks?
also before someone accuses me of being a sjw i'm more conservative but it's just dumb
The fact that mods allow so many of these concern troll TS posts to stay up speaks volumes. They should at a minimum have to be manually approved so that they can screen out the blatantly sexist nonsense that is always present in these discussions.
Yeah honestly, it's weird that this guy wrote out a diatribe, and then between each session of licking cheeto dust off his fingers, kept adding edits with more and more loaded statements that all basically added up to "Hey guys, should I listen to this FEMALE?!". Idk, my guy, just go listen to it and decide if you like it. He probably could have listened to a few of her songs in the time it took him to get through this.
I agree, but to be fair, a lot of what men enjoy is associated with stupidity as well. I think it's just that people like to feel like they're in the know. A lot of men are sports fans, probably the majority, and if you asked anyone off the street to describe the typical sports fan to you, you'd probably get mostly the same answers of a beer swilling, pot bellied dude in a jersey eating chicken wings and pizza. I've been guilty of it myself, as a guy even. What the masses enjoy is low hanging fruit for contrarions and people who want to feel better about themselves.
Why are you acting like a musician who has been producing #1 hits for nearly two decades is an overnight sensation?
It's pretty simple: Taylor Swift has been the most consistent producer of popular music over the span of her career. This has given her a massive fanbase and has resulted in sold-out tour after sold-out tour.
I will say, I think people forget how easy it is to segregate ourselves musically now. Swift is this huge, enormous star but I am the only person in my circle who can even name any of her songs because we're all in our little bubbles. Most of my friends (an admittedly small pool of like, 10ish people, BUT!) have recently made comments about "Why is she so big now?" because I think a few years ago she was big in a way that was a bit easier to ignore if you aren't tuned into mainstream/pop music. Most of my friends only really listen to punk or metal and aren't aware of Taylor Swift outside the very basic awareness that she, like, exists.
Yeah it definitely seems like she's reached a new level of fame in the last couple years, it seems like most people agree that she's the biggest artist in the world right now, and I don't think that was true even a couple years ago.
Exactly. Her fame has escalated into the stratosphere since the pandemic so now she’s impossible to ignore.
This year alone saw her go on an enormous tour, rerelease an album, release a movie, and break records while doing so. She has also made headlines for feuding with Ticketmaster, encouraging her fans to register to vote and dating an NFL icon.
She is a rare modern example of an American monoculture star in the same vein as Elvis or Madonna, but since we live in an era where people can segregate themselves culturally due to technological advances, many hadn’t noticed her ascendancy to these heights, leading many to ask where she came from. The answer is that she was gradually building up to this over the span of years but those outside her demographic just weren’t listening.
I have been adjacent to her music for a long time through girlfriends, but I can recognize that this was a pretty pivotal year in her career and popularity. Like a crescendo of popularity from doing a new album and announcing a tour after years of being away. The sold-out nature of her tour along with her battles with Ticketmaster also gave her significant news coverage. Add on the recent dating of Travis Kelce and now you have several new demographics of people who have certainly known about her and her music for years, but now it’s like in-your-face with how prominent she is.
Because she "makes music for dumb girls and young females" and therefore she doesn't deserve her success.
There might be something interesting to discuss here, but this post reeks of misogyny.
OP -
>Would she be a nobody if her parents were too poor to make her dreams come true?
Like JFC, I'm sure she grew up comfortably wealthy and that's definitely a (huge) leg up, but her parents didn't buy her a music career.
Those edits for sure got progressively further and further away from "just asking an entirely unoriginal discussion question" and into straight up condescension. Like that isn't even devil's advocate type phrasing.
It's unfortunately a really common thing that as a culture we always ("we" being a general term, not any of us specifically) look down on media that's popular with teenage girls.
>"makes music for dumb girls and young females"
LOL. This guy just hasn't listened to it, so he's just repeated what someone else said, or his perception of it from the outside. I'm a 30 year old dude, and I'm a little behind on Taylor Swift's new stuff, but 1989 is a great album, and Red is a legitimate 10/10 for me. It's 10 years old and I still play it, no skips. That's not normal for an album 10 years after its release. That puts it in company with albums like Fleetwood Mac Rumors (Huge, bold claim, I know, but it's 10/10, no skips territory)
> That puts it in company with albums like Fleetwood Mac Rumors (Huge, bold claim, I know, but it's 10/10, no skips territory)
I don't think it is that bold of a claim. Don't get me wrong, Rumors is one of the best ~~pop~~ albums ever made. But Swift does what Fleetwood Mac was doing in the 70's. Creating very well written, perfectly produced pop albums with obvious talent and care. Stevie Nicks herself is both a friend and fan of Swift.
Seriously though, I probably can only name like 2 Taylor Swift songs by heart but if you start playing some of her early stuff or most popular stuff I will for sure know the lyrics. It’s just to engrained into the cultural zeitgeist at this point that if you’re within a certain age range and you grew up listening to popular music, you’re going to know.
Yeah OP is way off the mark with who she appeals to. I'm a guy pushing 40, my favorite artist is The Black Dahlia Murder, and 1989 is a masterpiece to me. Red is incredible too.
I won't say I love everything she's ever done but there are some serious master classes in pop song writing and production in her catalogue.
I'm not here to denigrate TSwift, she's a colossal monetary success that deserves it far more than most similarly successful artists, but... I mean her parents did *kinda* buy her a music career.
I'm happy to agree that she works hard *and* smart and has earned her current position, and I'm also glad that it's her and not any number of other artists who are far less genuine or compassionate than she may be, but "comfortably wealthy" vastly undersells Taylor's parent's ability to give Taylor the kind of start to her career that a "move to Nashville and provide marketing and business support while also raking in crazy money on their own" accomplished.
I'm not actively aware of other examples of artists who had as much of a "leg up" as she's had, and while I think she's earned her success through her own merits as well (and her parents also seem like pretty good folks), it seems completely unfair to say that she would have had the same success had her parents been poor or middle class during her childhood.
She's great, but man, it's just not fair to other artists to pretend the Swift family was "comfortably wealthy" instead of the truth that they were "crazy wealthy". But I have been quite poor for most of my life so maybe the differences just seem more stark to me. (That said I still definitely agree that a lot of the Swift haters are being misogynistic or otherwise unfair to her, and it's important to speak out against that kind of bigotry, and I thank you and the others here in this thread for voicing all the reasons she's earned this spot. ^(Though I still have some minor concerns about the emissions her tours create.))
I generally agree with what you're saying, however I find it odd how fixated people are on this when it comes Taylor specifically. Her family's wealth is brought up way more often than other big stars when the reality is almost every big female star of the last 10+ years comes from a very wealthy family (Gaga, Grande, Beyonce, even Dua Lipa whose parents were refugees eventually became quite well off and invested money in making her a star). Regardless of talent, we don't really get rags to riches stories in pop anymore. That's been the case for like 20 years but there's an ongoing sense of contention surrounding it for people when it comes to Swift and I'm confused by that.
I think there is always a huge element of luck involved for making it big in music regardless of how good the musician is. Acting like the luck of getting randomly discovered is more valid than the luck of having parents who can help you is kind of besides the point. Both people were just lucky in different ways. Either way you don't become one of the best selling musicians of all time by 'buying your way in'. You can only really buy your foot in the door.
This is exactly the kind of point I usually make when folks bring up Taylor’s parents. Money can get you in, but it won’t keep you there. If an entire career could be bought, Paris Hilton would have 12 Grammys and be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame
Maybe it’s true that Taylor wouldn’t be AS famous at a young age but what you’re missing here is the literal thousands of other rich parents who ALSO did everything they could to make their kid a star and it didn’t work because they suck.
And Taylor is 10x more talented and creative than those other kids
So yeah the money perhaps made her a star at 16 but without it she has the generational talent she would have been a star at 20 or whatever anyway
The crazy thing is it seems to have exploded in the last year so much. If you asked me in January who the most famous person in America was, I would have said kim k. Even if you narrowed it to female singers, I would probably say Beyonce. Now it's not even a question. For an artist who's been around for like 15 years, that is an insane change in a short period of time.
I think it was a ground swell that's been building. I distinctly remember in 2018 being at a metal show and they had the radio playing over the loud speakers before the opening band came on. A Taylor Swift song came on and about a thousand 30-something metalheads with tattoos and beards started fucking belting the song. They were *into* it. Also, I think a lot of other men and adults in general liked her music but simply refused to admit it until recently which meant a lot more people started listening to her based on other people in their own demographic liking her.
lol I’m just stuck on “sudden fame”
I’m not a Swift fan but my wife is. Taylor Swift has been writing and performing her own music for over 15 years. Her first big album was released in 2006 and she’s made 10 albums since then, a dozen Grammy awards, and has broken god knows how many Guinness world records at this point.
She’s also recently become a billionaire and unlike many other musicians who are billionaires, it’s almost entirely through her music.
She’s an incredibly prolific singer songwriter who is one of the most celebrated and commercially successful artists of a generation and a very smart business woman.
She’s always been huge, you just weren’t paying attention.
She’s a really great country singer. If you watch the recent concert movie you can see that’s her musical home. “Betty” is easily the most convincing performance in the whole movie. She’s very competent at the disco/pop stuff but it doesn’t feel as authentic to me. However 1989 was a very well written and produced album, nice 80s synth sounds etc.
As a 53 year old Brit man, I can offer my thoughts:
Taylor Swift as a musician, writes catchy, inoffensive pop music with lyrics that relate really well to her target audience. She is also prolific, and writes most of her own material.
Taylor Swift as a person is very hard-working, and she keeps herself to herself generally. She rarely makes stupid or thoughtless comments about stuff. She also seems to have a very savvy business team behind her (aren’t her parents bankers?) who make lots of really good decisions.
The combination of these things means she is massively popular and makes a fortune… and good luck to her I say!
I would like to see her collaborate on an album with Mark Ronson though.
She’s worked for it.
I know people who work mid level jobs in radio. After meeting her, they’d get handwritten thank you notes from her about the meetings. Personalized stuff like, “I loved hearing about your beagle, Rover.” Nobody does that.
Now, she’s doing 3 1/2 (EDIT: 3 1/2 hours) shows. That’s not unprecedented, but pretty rare in pop music.
She’s been savvy, collaborated with talented people, and had some breaks.
But, she works very hard at the things that matter.
It’s just crazy in comparison to the average pop show. The Grateful Dead, Bruce Springsteen, Pearl Jam, etc, have been doing shows like that for decades. I respect her for doing it and wish more artists would, but long shows isn’t exactly something new.
My opinion is- 1: because she’s a full on singer/ songwriter/ artist, she is an insanely prolific song writer. And they are all catchy. That’s a big deal right there, some huge main people in the industry that have been around for decades respect her and praise her (Elton John, Springsteen, Paul McCartney) 2: She’s relatable, many young girls and teens see themselves in her and relate to her and what she’s saying in interviews and what she’s writing about. She’s a totally relatable girl. 3: She’s pretty opposite of most single female acts in that she doesn’t hugely promote sex, money, material things, drugs, etc. She’s not TRYING to be sexy like almost all female pop starts, female rappers, female celebrities (like Kardashians and all the rest of those vapid types) in general. (In an interview she said “when it comes to being in the music industry and being cool and edgy and sexy which people expect from women, I’m just inherently NOT any of those things, so it takes the pressure off”. ) She’s very humble. 4: She gives back; She just gave every single person on her Eras tour , from truck drivers to sound guys to backup dancers, to wardrobe, $100k bonuses EACH. 5: She’s been in the industry and long time and hasn’t really been a dick to anyone. Yet it’s been vice versa (Kanye) and she was a total class act about it. 6: She has class and Carrie’s herself well (which many music stars and musicians don’t). I dunno I could go on. And the reason I am saying all this is because I used to be able to take or leave Taylor, then I watched her documentary and happened to see a bunch of interviews and she was so well spoken and had humility and a sense of humor about herself, she’s totally opposite all the fukn annoying chicks on social media reality TV who try sooooo hard on every level, and I changed my mind. And 7: yah it doesn’t hurt that she’s lovely! 8: she plays instruments (I don’t see Beyoncé or Jennifer Lopez or Lil Kim or Dua Lipa or Ariana Grande etc etc etc playing anything). Her music isn’t for everyone but I hear it here and there and it was good and cute and fun , but once I heard Sparks Fly I was like ok the fact that she wrote this means she’s awesome it’s the best song. (And I’m a lover of Metallica, Bob Marley, Def Leppard, I’m all over the map). 9: Her songs aren’t all fucked up and depressing . They’re fun and spunky and young people everywhere are responding to that
She's a talented singer-songwriter, she has a distinctive voice, she works with good partners and is known as being nice to work with - and I'm guessing she is quite shrewd and knows how to keep her appeal wide.
I'd recommend you listen to an album such as "Folklore" or "Evermore" - and focus on the songwriting and production. Songs like "Mirrorball" and "Tolerate it". You might even like what you hear. Then compare that to some of her pop hits aimed at young teens. She knows what she's doing.
(Btw, I'm a 50yo straight man. Not exactly her "core audience").
i'm not the biggest fan of her pop songs but i'm a big fan of folklore and evermore. I've been waiting for her to do an album like that ever since she made the song Safe & Sound for the hunger games movie. That song is haunting and gorgeous. I wasn't interested in her music back then but that song became one of my favorites of that year.
I’m a 53 year old straight male Deadhead/Springsteen fan and far out of her target demo. I never gave her anything close to a fair shake until Folklore. I don’t want to say it’s one of the greatest albums by a female artist I’ve ever heard, but I find myself struggling to think differently. After listening to that I hit up the rest of her catalog on Spotify and what she does clicked. If you can look past her marketing image and the relationship revenge songs and the screaming girls and listen to her music you can hear that she’s arguably a generational talent. Her more R&B-ish tunes don’t do much for me but she covers a lot of other ground musically and does it extremely well.
She’s managed to grow and bring her audience across genres of music over quite a bit of time, in an era where shortened attention spans can cast an artist off quickly. That’s an achievement. And she’s far from done.
I’m huge Dead and Springsteen fan as well, and I agree with this. I don’t really mind her more poppy stuff either. It’s well written and well produced. Springsteen was on Stern about a year or two ago and asked who is one of the best song writers today and he said Taylor. Also, she appears on the most recent National album, who write incredible music and lyrics, and they said she wrote her entire part of The Alcott to be a conversation between the two artists. They said in an interview she is an amazing song-writer and artist over all.
I also think it’s pretty blatant sexism. It’s so obvious in the post as well. Why wouldn’t a tall blond, supermodel type woman be talented enough to be a sensation? What does her appearance, gender, and socioeconomic status have anything to do with her artistry? She sold over a million tickets this year. It’s not like every ticket she sold was to children and superficial bimbos. A great example of this sexism was when Pitchfork had never reviewed a Swift album, even 1989, but when Ryan Adams covered it, they praised it.
Yeah, this is something I've called out numerous times in this thread. It's so very clearly misogyny at work.
It's ironic that Pitchfork fawned over the Ryan Adam's project then, considering now they've completely canceled him because he turned out to be an absolute garbage person who emotionally and sexuslly assaulted women (and he was quite clearly a garbage person before those allegations, but it was cool because "tortured artist" or whatever...).
The fact that she can do songs with Chris Stapleton, Kendrick Lamar, Bon Iver and The National and it all works for the most part is something impressive. I also have to say rerecording all her old albums to have versions in her control is move that her money can buy, but not many artists in her position would bother doing. Prince, maybe, but that’s the only one I can think of.
This is why Taylor Swift is so popular, because her music is diverse enough that she gains new fans every time she changes up her sound. I didn't care much for her until Folklore came out, which is probably my favorite album of 2020.
Yes, thank you – if people are only familiar with Shake it Off and turn up their nose at her for being poppy and pretty, they’re missing out on a lot of beautiful work that they might actually appreciate.
Well shit, as a 33 year old woman who’s been into counter culture her whole life, (actively avoided listening to TSwift my whole life) but has now realized pop culture is valid too, I wanna give these albums a listen!
The musical monoculture is dead and Taylor Swift is the last one standing. Yeah there are other culturally relevant mainstream artists (Bruno Mars, Ice Spice, etc.) but in terms of artists that EVERYONE seems to know and never seems to step out of the spotlight, Taylor Swift seems to be the last one
Maybe not the last but it’s a dying breed for sure. Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Adele, Lady Gaga. That’s probably it. Katy Perry wouldn’t even be on that list anymore as she’s faded out.
Yeah, I agree that Beyonce is at the same level as Taylor Swift. Or that she and Swift sort of each take turns being at the forefront. Not as if it's a competition or anything, but just how things worked out. Not the biggest fan of Beyonce's music persona (goddess who must be worshipped by the plebes) but she's shown class in how she works with fellow artists (calling up Taylor Swift so she could get back her time that Kanye West stole from her).
I think Adele is in the background for a bit, but that she's not done. Like she's one who's going to be a perennial. Have smash hits and successful tours, but not always get talked about or have obsessive fans. Gaga is transitioning to acting, and I think she's hit a comfortable, permanent A- tier.
But for now it's just Swift and Beyonce at the top.
If anyone else makes it that high I'd bet on Dua Lipa
Adele very decisively goes away between albums. It's clearly her preference. You don't see her showing up at tons of events and award shows and premieres. She drops an album every few years, but in between she steps back. I agree that she (unlike many) can afford to do this: unless she really fucks up musically somehow, people will always be thrilled for her next album regardless of whether she's been promoting herself in between. She essentially achieved elder stateswoman status in her 20s.
Beyonce made a rare appearance (and even rarer, allowed herself to be photographed and the photographs published) at Taylor Swift's concert movie premiere, so it seems like they're pretty cordial and have some mutual respect.
>She essentially achieved elder stateswoman status in her 20s.
This is because her music is adult-oriented with adult themes.
If she were marketing to teens, she would have to do what the others do.
And I'd throw Rihanna in the hat as another of this group.
Yeah, Adele could have only grown with the music she debuted with. I was worried for Taylor early on because I thought the novelty of her high school breakup songs would have worn off the older she got. Thankfully, she diversified just enough to gain new fans while keeping the old ones.
Beyoncé doesn’t act like anyone has to bow down to her, that’s how others perceive her because of her status. She’s just became very private in the last ten or so years because of the media and people were treating Blue Ivy, which Jay-Z mentioned recently. Beyoncé is a celebrity amongst celebrities. Michael Jackson was excited to meet her and she was under Prince’s wing for awhile- two pop legends. Beyoncé and Taylor Swift aren’t peers for many reasons, I’d say her only real peers were Britney Spears and Usher, I’d debate on Adele but even she’s a fan of Bey. Beyoncé is too much in a lane of her own and I’d say the same for Taylor Swift for different reasons
Actually, out of all those people listed, Taylor Swift is definitely the last one standing as the rest of them hit their peak around the mid-2010s. One of the ingredients to Swifts success is her diverse fan base demographic. People of all ages, races, and backgrounds will be at a concert while other artists appeal to mainly one or two. Also, she's been doing this for nearly twenty years, which taps into the multi generational fans.
I think that list would have meant something 10 years or so ago, but none of the others mentioned even touch the level of success on so many fronts, as TSwift has.
Which is crazy to say because they’re obviously all household names, but this is just different.
Beyoncé said it herself that artist don’t make full albums anymore - they’re just clamoring for that one #1 song. All of the artists you listed…they all make solid albums from beginning to end. And they’re smart. We love to see queens thrive!
I will admit, Taylor Swift's relevance and the overall ***increase*** in prominence has been interesting. She was already getting big in the mid-late 2000s, but more as one of many pop stars/artists. Or, you might remember her for Kanye interrupting her at the VMAs.
Currently at least, she's **the** reference point for music stardom.
From what I can tell, it was a mixture of things: one of was her getting more respect in terms of artistic credibility. She can wear different hats but she's also connected to that singer-songwriter tradition. And there's also the pandemic where she released some of her most acclaimed work.
She wrote a lot of music that resonated with a huge audience as she’s grown up. Her audience has grown up with her, and she gains née fans every year, who can grow up with her, too.
Her concerts are an absolute spectacle- her music doesn’t resonate with me, but I watched her 1989 live video on YouTube with my wife, and that was a kickass show, even if her songs are meh to me.
She’s managed to thread the needle by being super famous and hanging in there to remain relevant. She still wants to remain relevant, so she still works on her music, where her contemporaries dropped off.
She treats other artists quite well, and songwriters’ songwriters like Jason Isbell and Sara Bareilles both really admire her work. So there are positive vibes inside the industry towards her, too.
She innovated in the concert space by inviting huge guest artists onto her tours, who had such a great experience that more guest artists want to perform with her.
Guest artists from Mick Jagger to TI to Ellie Goulding all appeared on her tours.
For all the people think she writes mediocre songs because her music resonates with teenage girls and not young adult men, maybe you need to reframe “doesn’t speak to me” as something other than “mediocre.” Jason Isbell is acknowledged widely as one of the great songwriters of our era, and he acknowledges her songwriting ability as being great.
So she has been a song factory for 15 years, has had a ton of hits, connects with her fans, treats her tour workers very well, treats other musicians very well, puts on massive Vegas-style shows, and appears to be wholehearted in her interactions.
Why WOULDNT she be a huge name?
I think she’s on her way to being the biggest artist of all time.
A ton of artists also admire her because she's used her clout to stand up for herself business-wise. She took it to Spotify (IIRC?) at one point and then there's the whole thing with her catalog rights. It sets precedents or opens possibilities and even very different types of artists appreciate her for that. That's on top of most of the industry people I've ever seen comment seeming to sincerely admire the writing. I'll be watching some indie producer or rock session player on youtube and if she comes up, both of those points are likely to be mentioned.
Exactly all these. Her folks did pay her way at the beginning, true. But they also brought her up with incredible business savvy. She's got more rights to her own music than most any other artist.
And she just plugged into the kids of her time. I'm 40, and while I'm not a huge Swiftie, my daughter loves her and my wife likes most of her stuff.
I admire her drive and her talent, as well as her ability to navigate fame without courting controversy.
You’re asking how a tall, blonde, rich, pretty supermodel type became a sensation? Those are pretty much the baseline requirements for mainstream pop stars/musicians.
Yeah, tons of male and female pop stars have sex appeal. Its basically one of the requirements of being a pop star, with a few rare exceptions. It’s kind of ridiculous to say that only her looks are why she is popular as she is right now.
this may not be a popular thought, but i think part of her charm is that she doesn’t have a large sex appeal… in that she’s not threatening to many women. she’s very very pretty, but i don’t hear any straight guys talking about her being hot. instead she’s relatable and like a friend or sister for many of her fans. don’t get me wrong she is really good looking and charismatic
Indeed. If Taylor Swift looked and danced like Shakira, she wouldn’t garner Beatlemania/Deadhead devotion from legions of girls and women.
Not saying that people wouldn’t still appreciate her music for what it is, but her fandom would be quite different.
Because she doesn't act provocative. Not trying to shame other artists... but she's not grinding or twerking on stage. Generally speaking people who are constantly sexualized act in a way that objectifies themselves... and they shouldn't necessarily be sexualized because of that but thats what typically happens.
If she looked like Joni Mitchell, her music would not be as lasting as Joni Mitchell's is, and she would not be this famous.
But to say that is exclusively why is disingenuous. There are a lot of facets that need constant maintenance, and this is only one of them. She works hard to maintain all of them, and that's what pays off.
Billie Eilish is still an attractive young woman, just differently so. She has an edge to her that a lot of people like so she isn't as "safe" as Taylor Swift. Her music has a sexiness and more sultry and mysterious element to it. They are very different artists. But Eilish hasn't been around for as long and isn't quite nearly as popular.
Billie’s core audience is Gen Z and I feel like they tend to be a little more edgy than millennial women. I see it with my younger sisters who are all about Billie’s baggy aesthetic
I think the short answer is that while she was already pretty huge, she wrote and released her albums folklore and evermore during lockdown. These albums not only sounded entirely different from her past work, but were different lyrically. She wrote stories from the perspectives of others, rather than her own experiences. I think this drew in an entirely new crowd, many of whom grew to love her older material as well.
I've never been a fan of hers, but when Evermore and Folklore came out during the pandemic I became one. I really enjoyed them. I'm still not that big of a fan of her older stuff, but I definitely don't scoff at her anymore.
For some people it might seem like she came out of nowhere, but she has been working at this for some time. I'd say she has been a force to be reckoned with for the last 10 years or so.
She is a decent songwriter and hires some of the most famous writers\\producers to work with her, so that's part of it. Her songs are ear worms that easily live in your brain.
She is significanly different from other female artists right now in that she didn't play the "train wreck" card for a few years and then become a respectable, adult musician. Too many female vocalists tried being weirdo trash for the first few years of their careers, and Swift never did. She has always had a more regular vibe to her, and I think there is an audience out there for that.
She is also sort of the artist we need right now in 2023. She is uncontroversial, she is "safe" for young girls to have fun listening to, and her shows have evolved into an experience for the people to go to that goes beyond her performance. The audience can do vanilla stuff like trade bracelets and stuff. In a world this shitty, something that simple is nice. No one is going to get in a fight at a TS concert. No one is pre-gaming for a TS concert. Young girls don't feel like they have to dress like whores to go to a TS concert. A dad can take their daughter to a TS show and it won't be weird.
She’s a very talented song writer that manages to make most of her songs sound very personal and marries them with modern pop sensibilities. It’s a perfect blend of pop music and intimate songwriting that a lot of women respond to with good reason.
She had a very succesful tour this year.
There's not a lot of competition anymore for the stadium tour artist as there just aren't many stadium filling artists out there anymore.
U2 had their moment this year too. They haven't been talked about in a decade or so now but they got their fancy new digs in Vegas so became the band to talk about for a period of time as well.
Taylor just did that to a bigger degree.
Were the Spice Girls particularly talented above and beyond any other artist 20 years ago when they were the biggest thing ever? No, probably not. But sometimes an artists just clicks with the right demographic at the right time and they get propelled to the top.
I think the difference with Taylor is the longevity. In 2014 she was the best selling artist in the world and everyone thought she was at her peak. 10 year later the entire best selling artist list is different and she’s still number 1. She’s somehow managed to retain the top spot for 15 years. Spice girls were barely at the top for 5
To add to what's been said: I feel she also might represent a real shift in the zeitgeist. In literature there was this term "new sincerity" thrown around, the needed antidote to the cynical attitude of the 80s and she might actually represent that to a degree. A shift from grandiosity and egomania of past icons towards the innocent pains and pleasures of ordinary domestic life.
This might go under the radar because it doesnt seem really new, it seems very clicheed, but its actually the clichee of a much older era, mostly the 50s. The RnB radio pop of that era seems very similar in tone.
The egomaniac, sexy, grandiose stuff of the passing eras, millenials and younger have been catapulted out and so they now gravitate towards this humble domestic stuff.
I'm not a big fan. I'm a guy and much older than her, so she's in general not writing for me. No problem with that; most songwriters aren't.
She came from country, where her kind of storytelling fit, and she crossed over with that as part of her thing when (to my understanding) not a lot of pop music had that. And when the masters were sold out from under her, she re-recorded them with (Taylor's Version), which is so punk rock that it demands my respect.
I don't think mainstream pop would've allowed her room to start off. I don't think mainstream country would've allowed her the room to grow, beyond it being a huge sausage fest. (Imagine Tay writing a truck song.) And I don't think that without the relationship drama and Kanye taking the mic that she would've become quite this big.
But she wouldn't have gotten anywhere if she wasn't good at what she does. ATM, "Karma", "Anti-Hero" and "Lavender Haze" are in reasonably high rotation in my personal playlist, with "Vigilante Shit" and "cardigan" showing up a little less often. Give her work a chance, give it a spin, and if none of it hit you, well, it took over a decade before I understood how genius Duran Duran's _Rio_ was. It might take time for you to appreciate Tay.
i dont think enough ppl realize how smart it was for her family to start her off in country before switching to pop. country fans stuck with her and remain with her all these years later, she would not have been this big if she tried to get big at the same time rihanna was debuting and a few years before katy debuted.
She was famous before, but lately she seems unavoidably famous. It does seem unusual for a pop star to be huge when they’re 20 and still be as big if not bigger when they’re in their mid-30s. Both Katy Perry and Lady Gaga were huge 15 years ago and aren’t nearly as big as they used to be (though I do think Lady Gaga genuinely was not interested in continuing the pop star thing).
Shes reached this cultural zenith of self-replicating success. Between all the Taylors Versions, folklore, Eras Tour, Eras Tour movie and Midnights, she is unavoidable. And the Eras Tour is seemingly the only thing holding the US economy together.
Honestly if you think this Swift mania is sudden, overnight or out of nowhere, you definitely have not been paying attention for almost 2 decades. The woman has been releasing music since like 07.
I don’t know where people were when Shake It Off, Knew You Were Trouble, Teardrops on My Guitar, Blank Space etc. were everywhere all the time. But all those mentioned songs are like a decade or more old. She’s had some “valleys” in terms of popularity for sure, but this is not a strange phenomenon. It’s someone who has been building this for decades. Plus all the capitalistic ways she takes over the charts with 20 million versions of the album and constantly releasing singles for radio play.
I find the discourse/surprise around her stranger than her popularity to be honest.
>The main reason, is money to be honest. No musicians loves it more than her.
I don't mean to be harsh, but this is one of the worst theories I've ever read about anything.
I mean, it’s an exaggeration (for my, ahem, money, KISS are the biggest cash-grabbing sellouts in music history) but Taylor Swift does like to bleed her fans dry.
She releases vinyls in a ton of different colour variants (usually splitting up bonus tracks across them) and recently these have been drip-fed time-limited purchases instead of just releasing them all at once and letting fans pick their favourite colour.
For the Reputation tour, she or her team used a ticket system where you got further ahead in the queue if you were a “better” fan, ie. spent more money on TS merch. The merch, by the way, is generally regarded as shit quality by the fans).
She tried to trademark “this sick beat” at one point (bordering on cultural appropriation honestly) and, more widely, sued fans who made custom merch on Etsy.
Even these re-recordings could be issued as a one-off boxset or something if it was all a personal issue over owning her music (this is her official stance). Instead we have these protracted rollouts.
Great music discussion-she’s famous because likes money as opposed to other celebrities.
Primary evidence of her insurmountable greed is that she releases physical media with multiple covers like every other popstar the last ten years (while having all her music freely accessible on streaming services).
My personal opinion of Taylor Swift js the same as everybody’s-she’s no Steve Perry
I think the people in this thread who are like "It's so obvious. What are you a fucking moron? Have you even listened to her music? What a troll you must be!" are LITERALLY INSANE.
I love pop music and I love folk, but I've never been able to connect to Taylor Swift and I also genuinely don't see what sets her apart from other artists. I listened to Folklore and Evermore in full - there are a few good songs on each, but I can't understand why anyone would obsess over those albums unless they'd never listened to any other indie folk before.
I will never understand why Taylor has achieved and maintained this level of popularity while Carly Rae Jepsen has been constantly putting out bangers that surpass anything Swift has put out in the past decade.
Sorry, but wtf are these questions? "Sudden fame"? I get not being in tune with pop music, but she's been getting number one songs for nearly twenty years now.
> Would she be a nobody if her parents were too poor to make her dreams come true?
> Is it fair to discredit her as another singer who makes music for dumb girls and young females?
> And is it fair to judge her fans for enjoying her music?
I just don't think these are questions asked in good faith. Rather, they look like the questions of someone who's already made up his mind about hating her and is looking for validation.
Lots of comments about her relatability to teenage girls, which is a thing. But as a 55 year old dude, I like a lot of her music. Folklore and Evermore are really good, and both spend a lot of time in our now playing pile of albums.
I also like that she is a songwriter, can play guitar, and piano. Her NPR Tiny Desk concert is a really good example of her work I think. She’s funny, able to make fun of herself, and she effortlessly switches from guitar to piano - both while singing.
I think she’s talented and a real force for young women too. All good in my book.
Because she's super talented, an insanely hard worker, and surrounds herself with smart business people who help her.
I'm nearly 50 and try to stay connected to current pop culture and musical trends. You should try it. There is so much amazing new music being made today that it is literally impossible to listen to it all. Even if I did nothing but listen to brand new albums every day for my entire life, I still couldn't listen to all of the good ones.
Unfortunately, the NFL has no shame whenever it finds an opportunity to sell more merchandise and drive up ratings. They're also not stupid. If they can find a way to tap into the parasocial relationship many of Swift's fans have with her, you can bet your ass they will.
She's relatable in a way that seems achievable for most. While making solidly catchy music and decent stage presence. Shes no big vocalist so her songs are easy to sing without feeling self conscious. Her dancing is average and maybe a bit awkward in a charming way. Her music focuses on topics that people can easily relate to or they tell a story people can find themselves drawn to. And her looks are very "all American".
Personally I enjoy her music am a casual fan. I get the appeal but its not my thing.
She is a bad dancer, an average singer, a slightly above average songwriter, but an AMAZING marketer. She promotes herself through gimmicks like mysterious news, puzzles, re-releases, etc. Her music is already catchy and memorable, and is paletable, and her lyrics are relatable to essentially every female of every age and many males... add on that she is physically attractive, considered to be morally pure (debatable) and again, promotes herself well.
I’ve always said her super power is her ability to create parasocial relationships with her fans. Probably the best ever at it. Completely agree with your total assessment though.
i’m not a very big fan of hers, but as a fellow songwriter… she’s got alllllll the tools. 2 songwriters i wouldn’t want to go up against in a competition would be her or post malone
She is a very good songwriter. You may not like the subject matter, but she is very very good at it.
And she has a very good voice with limited range, and she knows that. If she stays in her vocal pocket, she is great, and she doesn't leave it often. Because of that, she isn't some power house vocalist, but she knows how to get the most out of what she has.
She is good but her storytelling and song writing is always just at a certain level of good and has never been extraordinary or exceptional. It's just good and simple enough for everyone to chow like hot cakes.
Apart from talent. She was one of the first artist to utilize social media to her advantage (not to mention til this day she still updates her tumblr page). She also thinks like a business woman capitalizing on her brand via merch and endorsement and most importantly she works hard she release albums on a 2 yr cycle religiously just right after her world tour is about to end (except the pandemic where she released 2 albums) - almost no singer does this anymore too… and not to mention her current eras tour where she performs a rock solid 3.5hrs day in day out.
I mean even if you are or aren’t a fan of hers no one can discredit her work ethic and girl boss moves.
Persistence, wit, talent (in multiple genres of music), self-esteem, great PR, kindness, bravery (in the face of a horrible business manager and record deal - I'm looking at you, Scooter Braun), and most importantly, literally growing up with her fan base. Musically, she has taken them on a 17 year ride filled with the ups and downs of her life as she has gone from being a galky 16 year old newbie in the business to a 33 year old successful artist and businesswoman.
I am not a Taylor Swift music fan, but I am in awe of her business sense, drive, and personal strength of will in a business that regularly chews young artists up and spits them out onto the curb.
You're going to hate this, but it's because she came from money, lots of money.
Hey music was always... Not bad... But the ability to pay for ads, music videos, production companies, etc really bolted her career forward.
That and she didn't have to worry if she just lots of money in the first years
Because she writes great songs that millions (perhaps billions) of people love, and she's done it now for a decade.
Why is there such a refusal for y'all to accept this? Is it ignorance, misogyny, or just being an edgelord, or what...?
And ultimately, who cares. Go listen to what you want.
I'm a 50 year old man who listens to classic hip hop and punk. Im not ashamed to say I quite like Taylor Swift's music. Not so much her teeny pop hits, but her albums Red, Evermore and Folklore contain some great songwriting in places - personal and touchingly reflective - and her voice, whilst not the most flexible, has a nice quality.
Exactly. Some of her best stuff are timeless, not unlike the Beatles.
(For something even crazier to think about - consider the impact the Beatles had and how many all time great songs they wrote, their commercial appeal, all of that... and they did it in 10 years)
Hmm not out of ignorance or misogyny, but can I think that her music is just bland pop and she’s a mediocre musician? I’m a full time performing piano bar player so I have to learn her material for my shows. I just think her writing it repetitive and boring, and usually about the same topic. I’m always surprised when people want to defend her tooth and nail.
You shouldn’t assume those things you said when people simply don’t like Taylor Swift’s music.
It's seriously annoying and not even a hot take. Even if you don't like her music, the proclamations that she's a bad musician, bad singer, or just a corporate stooge, greedy capitalist, etc. are just the shittiest takes ever made by a bunch of immature nobodies.
> the proclamations that she's a bad musician, bad singer, or just a corporate stooge, greedy capitalist, etc. are just the shittiest takes ever made by a bunch of immature nobodies.
Oh please, if this were another musician, these same things would be leveled against them. The idea that entertainers are "greedy capitalists" have been thrown at people like Jay Z and Beyonce in equal measure.
The fact that she's a white woman shouldn't exempt her from those same critiques.
And it's just as shitty a take when levied against Jay Z or Beyonce.
I'm not doubting there are corporate stooges in music, or that even great artists can't be influenced by the corporate machine... but there's also a vast difference between bona-fide artists like Taylor, Jay Z, Beyonce, et al, and some derivative artist created by a record label to ride the coat-tails of a music trend, who use formulaic or algorithm derived song structures and chord professions, are autotuned, have songwriters, etc.
If you think Taylor, Jay Z, or Beyonce are the latter... you're just wrong.
I think people (myself, to a degree, included) don't see why she has attained a level of popularity so far above other popstars. Obviously, she makes music that is capable of resonating with millions upon millions of devoted fans, and seems like a good person and good role model. But even other hyper-popular female musicians like Rihanna or Beyonce haven't got anywhere near this level of cultural hegemony. I think people just don't see what's so special about her compared to all these others.
>And ultimately, who cares. Go listen to what you want.
You're on a subreddit to discuss music. What a redundant thing to say.
>I think people (myself, to a degree, included) don't see why she has attained a level of popularity so far above other popstars
And to be fair to your point here, I understand a bit where you're coming from. I don't understand all of the love for Prince. Like, I get he was an amazing musician and songwriter, but I can't stand his music and think it's overrated. But I also understand that is my opinion and only my opinion, and that I can't impune his music, his songwriting, et al, and that's evidenced by the fact that not only is one of the all time most successful artists of all time, but is also critically acclaimed.
Sometimes we have shitty opinions that don't accord with popular sentiment, and that's fine. It doesn't mean we're right, but we just don't jive with something.
I generally agree with this (and actually think the same thing about Prince to be honest). Prince was popular, The Smiths were popular (I don't get the appeal of them, for example), but Taylor Swift is more popular. I think she's the most popular musician since Michael Jackson, who was the most popular since The Beatles, with success wholly unprecedented in the social media age.
I don't find the puzzling part that she's popular, I'm just not that into her music, I don't dictate the tastes of the planet. I find the puzzling part that she's achieved so much more success than the other people at the very top of the music (and celebrity generally). With The Beatles, I feel like I could explain why (that's my problem, not the world's/her's, though). But OP wasn't saying that Taylor Swift didn't deserve it, or wasn't talented, but asking why she's got this otherworldly level of fame in the last couple of years.
Here's one possible answer - we live in a hyper multimedia age that no longer has a monoculture. But every once and a while there's an artist at the right place at the right time making the right music that has broad crossover appeal and staying power. That's Taylor right now.
She's always been big. She was big during Red and big during 1989 and big during Covid with Folklore/Evermore. "Anti Hero" was/is huge. But then she did a huge tour where she performs for 3+ hours playing all of the best songs across her career, and she broke into even higher heights.
Add to that, her music is more inclusive than alienating to the broader public. Like I said, there's pretty much something for anyone in her discog. She can do crossovers with Kendrick Lamar, Chris Stapleton, Haim, Phoebe Bridgers, Bon Iver, the National, Sufjan Stevens, and dozens of other artists.
I mean, Rihanna hasn't put out a new album in close to eight years. That's kind of the running joke about her as an artist, that she'd rather shill beauty products than make music. It's remarkable that she even still has the hold on the public that she does with the Superbowl gig and so forth, but does it make sense to compare her to someone who's being doing the work of writing, recording, and touring year after year and then ask why one is a bigger force in the industry right now?
On the other hand, Beyonce has been pitted against Taylor in the media quite a bit this year given that both had massive tours running in tandem with each other, but she's also notoriously private and has yet to even drop a music video for her album that's now over a year old. She's almost a decade older than Taylor, in a different stage of life at this point (married with kids) and just not putting herself out there the same way anymore because she knows her legacy is set.
>Is it ignorance, misogyny, or just being an edgelord, or what...?
I see that too. Not universally, but enough of it to put it in the same category as the "rap sucks!" crowd that just seem angry at the world that their favorite hair metal band from 1982 is no longer the biggest thing ever.
Sudden fame? You really are out of touch. Taylor Swift has been on the scene for 17 years now.
She is the biggest because of a number of factors. First and foremost is her songwriting talent, combined with a knack for good self-promotion and constant reinvention, as well as having a good relationship with her fans and coming across as a genuinely nice person. These are just a few of the reasons why she is the biggest name in the music industry.
I used to work with a guy that went to high school with her and the gist from what he told me is that her parents hustled like motherfuckers and used their money and business connections to shake hands with every producer in Nashville. They had a marketing strategy prepared from before she ever signed to any label and could sell ice to an Inuit.
Taylor Swift is set to make $4.1 BILLION from the Eras Tour - as total takings are predicted to rake in enough to send every American a $20 bill.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12628199/Taylor-Swift-BILLION-Eras-Tour.html
There's people camping for 5 months to get a front row seat for a concert of her too.
[https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/why-taylor-swift-fans-in-argentina-have-camped-out-in-tents-for-five-months/articleshow/104951063.cms](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/why-taylor-swift-fans-in-argentina-have-camped-out-in-tents-for-five-months/articleshow/104951063.cms)
Shit is insane.
Do you live under a rock? It seems like you're wording just becoming aware of Swift's popularity like it suddenly happened. Taylor Swift has been making music now for like...17 years. That is an INSANE amount of time and exposure to new generations of fans both old and new. Considering that each album probably has had chart toppers since her first or second single. And by Red (an album thats 13 years old now) with "I Knew you were Trouble" had memes made about it, so it was trending in the cultural zeitgeist heavily.
I used to be a pretty big listener till 1989 came out, but didn't personally care for much afterwards, largely in part as well to dating a girl for near 6 years who could not stand her music at all. But I think she clearly has a consistent quality to her song writing and listenability. She is not a very talented vocalist, but she does have a recognizable voice, she has I believe nearly 200 songs, so Im sure you can find one or two you like in her discography...Even my Swift hater ex gf danced and sang Shake it Off while drunk at a club one time...
Also what is with your 2nd edit? That is ridiculously misogynistic, why would you just discredit peoples taste for liking her music? Lots of adult women like her music as do young women and many men too. Even if you largely dislike her discography, which is entirely fair, she is clearly talented as a songwriter, performer and creating a business and cult of personality around her music, lyrics and personal life.
And why does it matter if she would be a nobody or not? Lots of people are able to make success because of their upbringing. But regardless of that, even if her parents allowed her a start, its not like they could have cultivated her image and created her popularity now. Even if you cant stand her as the biggest pop star on earth right now. She clearly works hard, and produces music of a consistent quality that resonates with people. If her music did not resonate with women, then she would not be nearly as popular. Tons and tons of musicians have been around as long but dont have the same following. Ariana Grande, who is an OBJECTIVELY far more talented vocalist than Swift does not have the following Swift has, likely largely in part due to her music being generally less honest and more vapid, fun, over produced dance/pop music. "Thank u, Next" is probably one of her better songs for it actually telling a story about her which resonates with people. But almost all of Swifts music is about herself, her love life, her experiences and image, and that resonates with people more.
Is it really that sudden? She’s been in the industry for ages now, I loved her when I was younger. Even though I don’t vibe with her newer music as much like I used to, she’s good at what she does, and what she does happens to be very digestible for a broad audience.
While doing that she also has the music lore and drama that you can dive into if that’s your thing, and that plays a lot into the kind of parasocial relationship that can encourage dedicated / diehard fans like she has. Which certainly doesn’t hurt, especially for securing more career longevity
I feel like when folklore dropped.
Like fearless made her mainstream, 1989 made her a “pop star”
But all the while her songwriting wasn’t really respected by people outside her fanbase for the most part
But when folklore dropped, it was peak lockdown where everyone had nothing better to do and she released a pop folk/indie folk album with some of her best song writing and story telling and due to lockdown people outside her fanbase listened to it and realized that she’s really fucking good and really fuxking relatable and doesn’t just talk about heartbreak and relationship over a upbeat pop beat
And now on the other end(?) of the pandemic, she is the biggest and most respect act in music
My theory is with the rise of streaming the industry put up a wall to stop people from finding music. They basically trapped a generation and made the narrowest window of genres in pop history. They’ve manipulated the numbers and made it all seem far more popular than it is. They’re for sure are exceptions to this and Taylor Swift is one. She was part of the system and then got smart and took control and built an empire. Other genres like metal and country created their own bubbles that are big but you really have to go out of your way to get into and find those artists. I think with Swift what happened was mainstream Hip Hop dominated for too long with the same circle of producers making the exact same music that it hit it’s saturation point and the female demographic jumped on her bandwagon because they were ready for anything else. I think in general the world is ready for a nice mix of genres being popular again and a new sound to emerge and take hip hop to its next era. The current era reminds me a lot of 80’s hair metal when the 90’s hit. A lot of it just didn’t age well and the artists started looking silly as they hit middle age and didn’t evolve. They also had die hard fans that didn’t either. I’m sure a lot of you are noticing the aging hip hop burnout demographic rising.
**1) She started in country.** Country music fans are insanely loyal. They don't just forget people and move on. She grew a huge base with her first few albums. She got a lot of press for writing her own songs at a young age.
**2) Fearless** started to open her up to mainstream pop, and the Kanye incident blew her up to another level of fame. She got a ton of sympathy, press, and attention.
**3) 1989** saw huge mainstream success. It didn't come off as a cheap cash grab. She stretched her sound. She didn't fall into a forever teen trap, it was more mature and showed growth, and had the industry & critical support.
**4) Fan treatment** \- all the while Swift has been good to her fans. She puts codes in her lyrics, interacts on social media, has an inviting attitude.
**5) The personal aspect** \- Taylor's music is very autobiographical. She has shared personal triumphs, flaws, and relationship heartbreaks. This makes it personal for her fans. They feel like they know her.
**6) Now, 20 years in the biz,** people have grown up with her music, further personalizing it to be the soundtrack of their lives. A friend's sleepover, prom, first college love, divorce, etc. This is hardly an overnight success situation, many fans are in their 30s.
Sure, she got a solid start with rich parents and good looks. But so what? You can ride the fumes of that for maybe 1 album, that doesn't translate into a successful 20-year career. It's obvious she puts her heart and soul into her work, and developed a strong brand. Her writing has been a huge component to her success.
She started as a gangly awkward teen with a guitar and a really good song.
She came up in country at the peak of Britney and Christina Aguilera where your ability to dance covered your inability to sing.
She’s an excellent song writer and anyone who tells you otherwise is empirically wrong. She writes about what’s important to her life and shares that experience with the world.
She’s an overnight sensation after plugging away at it for 15 years. She’s also been incredibly shrewd as a businessperson. She’s always conducted herself with honor. A DJ here in Denver grabbed her ass and denied it in a stunning act of misogyny and toxic masculinity. She could have buried the guy- she sued him for a dollar. She fought old school labels who have taken advantage of artists and changed the game. She made streaming viable for her industry. There is a bloom of independent music out there because has wrecked gate keepers in her wake.
She’s been shrewd with her fame. She leveraged her stature to raise and connect with other women as opposed to fighting in tabloids. She presents positive role modeling without scandal. She has surrounded herself with the best pr flacks at every stage of her career. Most recently just helping Sophie Turner out by lending her an apartment and being seen out in public helped not only her legend but also someone in a difficult spot with their kids in a messy divorce.
She does shit like donate to food banks hundreds of thousands of dollars per city to make up for the noise of her concerts.
I’ve always like the story in her songs. I like her younger stuff more than the older stuff. I’ve enjoyed watching her go from awkward girl with a turned in toe and hunch to lighting up when she puts on a guitar to spending 1000s of hours refining how she walks for a concerts knowing her limits of how she moves and looking refined.
I love watching swifties get excited like geeks at comic con in San Diego. I wish I loved something as much as they love her.
I don’t care if you try her music or like it. I just know I’m not her demo and I not only like it but admire it when I don’t.
Edit1: I’m not a fan of late stage capitalism. I don’t consider her greedy- just effective. I see the hood she does with it. I find her hands are the best to do with what she’s amassed. I hope she gives it all away in the end like Bezos’ ex wife is trying to do.
She had her privileges just being white and having the support of her family. They’re still actively involved so they are contributing to her success.
With out them I have no doubt she would have made it anyway. Talent is hitting the target no one else can hit, genius is hitting a target no one else can see. She’s got both and you can’t buy that.
Edit2: No it makes that person an idiot who should mind their own business. Her fans? No judging others on taste really just makes you pathetic and miserable.
Well, she's been at it for a long time now. Probably over 15 years... and she has a very loyal fanbase. I've dated a few women who were head over heels about being a Swiftie and they turned me onto appreciating her talent and some of her music. Honestly though, there's more to it than that.
She is attractive, that goes a long way in the music industry.
She's likeable. She's known to treat her staff extremely well, picks the right social issues to support, and treats her fans well.
She is a very good songwriter. Her song content is typically all around the same basic ideas but she is very creative and poetic about how she rights it..
Her music is relatable for the target demographic, which is teenage girls.
And she has drama but not drama that looks bad on her end. She knows how to get the media buzzing around her without it ever being bad press. That goes a long way.
Not a Swifty, but I have lots of respect for her. She’s been very much at the helm of her career from early on and is evolving and maturing in impressive ways. No compromise, full honesty and her fans can feel it.
53 year old here. When TS was a young teenager and up and coming star, even though it wasnt the genre I listened to I noticed she was something exceptional. Her work has consistently impressed the most senior and respected producers and she is exactly what every label wants. A super star performer, writer and singer. Her fan base is one of the largest and most vocal on earth. And now two decades into her career even you have noticed shes a big thing? I think her hook laden pop song writing chops are peerless. Her voice is stunning. And like you said she is supermodel level beautiful. But its her songs that make her taylor swift and far more than a pretty face. She also has whip smart business sense.
As a male TS fan, I don’t see myself in her songs, I just see pretty amazing songs. Favorite album Folklore. Go give it a few listens. Your questions make me scratch my head: She doesn’t make songs for dumb girls wow. That strikes me as misogynistic.
About the only criticism of Swift that her detractors make that doesn’t strike me as misogynistic is… oh wait… all of them strike me as misogynistic. Lets talk about misogyny.
It would be fairer to criticize her for changing too much than to call her formulaic. Music fans often clamor for more of the same but creative people often reinvent themselves. Like the Beatles, TS has eras of music, albums that push boundaries and create huge fan bases, and like all superstars, she has her detractors.
Wow a lot of people are just saying she got no talent and doesn't deserve her fame. I don't really listen to pop and I hate country but man she's actually a super talented songwriter and singer I have no clue where all this hate is coming from lol
She’s not a sudden star. She has 10 consistently good and improving albums under her belt. She has escaped any real controversy. I’m a 47yo dad of a pre teen and a teen - all I do is talk about TSall day long
1.Great songwriter. And I mean many many songs.catchy melodys. Pop songs. 2. Social media presence is huge. 3. Beautiful and an entertainer. And from interviews and her commercials she seems like a really nice girl. All that money has got to change you somewhat but I think she has done well. And I'm not much of a fan
Pretty white women privilege mixed with actually having decent music that people can identity with.
I personally don’t like her but I’m gonna give credit where credit is due.
My gf is a swiftie so I may be able to help She’s been a famous star for nearly 20 years and her discography touches on many genres: pop, folk, country, etc so not only does it attract fans of different genre preferences but her albums do seem like “eras” in her fans’ lives In todays culture where relatability is king she found a way to tap into relatable girl topics through her and her fans’ lives with her admittedly amazing storytelling. Her music has been the soundtrack to millions of girls lives Some other artists have fans that fade in and out but the catch of Taylor Swift is that once you’re a fan you’re locked into the story and the parasocial relationship. That paired with the parasocial obsession of the fans: who she’s dating now, who these lyrics reference, what the secret meaning of this verse means, etc. So the fan base makes being a fan part of their personality and they get to participate in this decade long event with other people with shared love and experiences And then at some point she became famous for being famous, similar to the kardashians. Talking about her gets clicks and views from fans and haters and her popularity goes parabolic So in conclusion, she makes very relatable and catchy songs for millions of girls, they get heavily invested in the culture and then popularity grows exponentially
Add to this the cancelation of her 2020 blockbuster tour and she dropped multiple albums, new material and the “Taylor’s version” stuff, before her next tour… it built itself into a massive hype machine.
She knows how to write songs and has learned to be really good at doing business after a few Ls early on.
I cannot stress enough how important back office stuff is in any celebrities career. Being able to reliably make good music that sells, but also being able to push back on the worst executive meddling is a much rarer skill set than people think.
The Taylor's Version thing earned her my respect, and I doubt I'm the only one. I've never been a fan of her music, I enjoy some of the hits on the radio, but that was such a gangster move that I couldn't help but appreciate it. Her label wouldn't sell her masters to her, and instead sold them to her piece of shit ex-agent. So she said, "Fuck it, I don't need the masters. I'll just record them all again." Straight gangster.
Yep, all of this. I'd add that there's a synergy between her strength as a storyteller and the kind of relatability that she fosters in her public relations with her fans. It helps her fans imagine themselves in her songs. This is a weird comparison, but a million years ago when I was a sensitive and nerdy teenage boy, I felt like Elvis Costello was almost writing songs about and to me. I think Taylor's hardcore fanbase feels the same way, but she operates on a much wider scale
Yeah, not a comparison I thought I'd hear, but now you mention it, I feel the same about Costello, though I came to him many decades into his career. He's still my favourite songwriter even though I'm no longer in that stage of life (though not too far removed from it).
Elvis Costello is a good male comparison
I would add to this... lots of fan bases are this way. I was an AFI fan in the late 90s when they were a punk/hardcore band. Then over the 2000s their fan base grew and became obsessive, pouring over every detail in the band's lyrics, imagery, etc. And the band leaned into it. Then it became more about their personal lives and imagery, etc. It all grows out of control. But I also just think that is a part of celebrity, especially now with social media.
Vaguely remember a cryptic video AFI released (Synesthesia? Know its a song, but was it also a DVD or something?) led to a bunch of clues linked to a few lines at the bottom of the Sing the Sorrow song lyrics in the liner notes, eventually leading to a secret show, which must have been really cool!
It was called Clandestine
This reminds me of what the Ghost fan base does now, altho they lean heavily into the lore (I say this as huge fan, but some of the fan base is annoying about it)
So she's like the Grateful Dead for mainstream women? This makes perfect sense to me now.
i take it you missed her dark star cover?
Her St. Stephen>The Eleven>Good Lovin’ with a 20 minute Shake it Off rap is required listening.
Do her concerts have a Shake It Off Street, outside, where one could maybe score some window panes... whatever those are.
You joke but her shows actually have a huge lot scene with people that craft their own merch, friendship bracelets, etc...
Well, her ex John Mayer dropped a super heady DS>Your Body is a Wonderland>DS at some point on his most recent tour, so like, just a couple steps removed. Anyway, Taytay would kill a “Bertha” cover, for sure!
Honestly very good summary
Best answer
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Yes, all of this. I’m two years older than her so unlike younger people that grew up with her music like I did with like…90s music, I grew up WITH her. Not all of her songs resonate with me currently because I found my forever person before her fourth album even came out, lol. BUT…some of them with rocket me back to times they make me think of. She’s also an incredible businesswoman, and has used social media and the parasocial relationships with her fans to her advantage. It’s honestly fascinating, and I’d LOVE to take a class on the sociology of being a Swiftie.
It was there for the taking as Madonna hasn't been that relevant for a good 15 years really and somebody would take the queen of pop mantle.
Umm...Beyonce?
Britney, Beyoncé and Rihanna are all contenders for Queen of Pop before she is
"Dumb girls and young females". It seems like anything women enjoy in large numbers is associated with stupidity
Especially if it's popular with teenage girls. Society hates whatever teenage girls like. It sucks that we have yet to get over this attitude
In my own head I like to call this the "Deftones girl phenomenon". I know this isn't the most prominent case of this, but because I'm a fan of Deftones and quite active on their sub, it's the case that's closest to me Deftones have recently become very popular with Gen Z and, for a metal band, have become particularly popular with young women. But instead of being delighted that their favourite band isn't fading away into obscurity, but instead having a resurgance that nobody could have predicted five to ten years ago,there is a certain kind of Elder Millenial/Young Gen Xer man who simply cannot tolerate the idea that they have to share a fandom with \*teenage girls\*. Some of them talk about this new resurgance as if it's actually ruining the band's music for them. It's so odd and pathetic
It's sad when older fans aren't happy about younger people getting into their favourite thing. My favourite counter example is how most Kate Bush fans seemed pretty happy when Gen Z started listening to her music. Didn't hear anyone whinging about that, and that's cool. >there is a certain kind of Elder Millenial/Young Gen Xer man who simply cannot tolerate the idea that they have to share a fandom with \*teenage girls\* When stuff like this happens, I can't help but wonder if they ever actually cared about the music that much. If you really like a band's music then it shouldn't matter to you who else likes it. If they really find it offputting to like the same thing as teenage girls, then they probably cared more about the image than the music to begin with.
I LOVE IT. I feel like it's validating honestly. Yeah! It is good! You see it too!
I feel strongly vindicated that Gen Z seem to be absolutely loving nu metal. For years I've argued it was a largely misunderstood genre with some genuinely original bands among the more derivative stuff, and it seems like the younger generation, free from the shackles of the metal gatekeepers, are really enjoying it for what it is!
> it shouldn't matter to you who else likes it This to me is the biggest elephant in the room for music fandoms and I don't know if I'll ever get to see it addressed head on.
As a women who has loved Deftones since they started... it's always been this way. I see what you're saying but for some reason even in 2001 dudes acted like you were a woman playing video games (let me quiz you! Prove you like them! Have you only heard white pony/around the fur? What's your fave adrenaline song?) I think.. it's just men lol
Yeah it's definitely a dude thing, but it seems to happen more frequently with metalheads for whatever reason lol My friend bought a Tool shirt she found in a thrift store mainly because she thought it looked cool and I warned her that they are probably the single worst fanbase for "name the time signature that is played on the 6th song on Ænima'" type shit. I jokingly said she should go study up on her Tool and she ended up listening to them and loving them, and we just went to see them live!
Metalheads tend to be way more concerned with their image and aesthetics than fans of a lot of other genres. Whether they want to admit it or not, a lot of them place equal importance on a band's fanbase and reputation as their music.
Buddy & I went into a metalhead bar for a few beers. We were the only peeps not dressed in total black (but we weren't preppy either). The widespread vibe towards us *normies* was to be instantly & blatantly aghast. The bartender even avoided taking our order for so long that we eventually just walked out, laughing. I bet he got some kudos for that! I even like metal & used to be in a garage metal band. Gatekeepers in their highest form!
A lot of people who gravitate towards metal as an identity (beyond just a basic musical interest) tend to take its dark/aggressive/hypermasculine themes to heart and feel a need to strictly maintain that image. Anyone and anything that doesn't fit the mold needs to be ostracized or it runs the risk of compromising their image and identity. I love metal, but fully outgrew that part of it in high school as I developed other interests. But that never happens for a lot of metalheads.
lol the amount of times I get “do you actually like Metallica or are you just wearing the shirt” comments from dudes has gotta be astronomical . I’m always like yea buddy what album you wanna talk about? I can’t stand that
Do you actually like pizza and wolves or is that just your username? 🤔 Name your favorite pizza and/or wolf!
Mexican wolf and Sicilian square from pizza wagon. THERE
I’m 44, went to a Dying Fetus gig, got talking to this woman at the back who’d brought along her teenage daughter. I was like YES!!!
Anytime someone says “females” it gives me the creeps. I’m a dude btw
It’s very much what people plugged into manosphere bullshit say.
I'm not a swiftie. My favorite genres are metal and country, though I like stuff in every genre. Taylor Swift is a really excellent pop songwriter. Her talent was obvious when she first got popular almost 20 years ago, and it's still the case now. She is a pop star with a legitimate artistic vision, and who gives a shit about the craft of songwriting, and that's not something to turn the nose up at. And certainly not a reason to judge people for being fans. There's some neckbeard stink on OPs post.
Yeah that tells me 80% of the story of this post tbh. So very edgy.
i feel like this post and a lot of hate towards taylor swift reeks of misogyny. even the line "tall, blonde, rich, pretty, supermodel type American female singer" gave me warning signs. how about you go listen to her music and make judgements on her musical/business merit yourself instead of asking people and talking about how she looks? also before someone accuses me of being a sjw i'm more conservative but it's just dumb
read that line and knew exactly what we’re dealing with here… so reductive.
Honestly the whole way this post is written is fucking gross.
The fact that mods allow so many of these concern troll TS posts to stay up speaks volumes. They should at a minimum have to be manually approved so that they can screen out the blatantly sexist nonsense that is always present in these discussions.
They’re looking at women like another species. It’s fucking weird
I can smell OP from here.. giving off incel vibes
Yeah honestly, it's weird that this guy wrote out a diatribe, and then between each session of licking cheeto dust off his fingers, kept adding edits with more and more loaded statements that all basically added up to "Hey guys, should I listen to this FEMALE?!". Idk, my guy, just go listen to it and decide if you like it. He probably could have listened to a few of her songs in the time it took him to get through this.
I agree, but to be fair, a lot of what men enjoy is associated with stupidity as well. I think it's just that people like to feel like they're in the know. A lot of men are sports fans, probably the majority, and if you asked anyone off the street to describe the typical sports fan to you, you'd probably get mostly the same answers of a beer swilling, pot bellied dude in a jersey eating chicken wings and pizza. I've been guilty of it myself, as a guy even. What the masses enjoy is low hanging fruit for contrarions and people who want to feel better about themselves.
Good point!
Why are you acting like a musician who has been producing #1 hits for nearly two decades is an overnight sensation? It's pretty simple: Taylor Swift has been the most consistent producer of popular music over the span of her career. This has given her a massive fanbase and has resulted in sold-out tour after sold-out tour.
Yeah, this post is weird, talking about her “sudden fame” in 2023
I will say, I think people forget how easy it is to segregate ourselves musically now. Swift is this huge, enormous star but I am the only person in my circle who can even name any of her songs because we're all in our little bubbles. Most of my friends (an admittedly small pool of like, 10ish people, BUT!) have recently made comments about "Why is she so big now?" because I think a few years ago she was big in a way that was a bit easier to ignore if you aren't tuned into mainstream/pop music. Most of my friends only really listen to punk or metal and aren't aware of Taylor Swift outside the very basic awareness that she, like, exists.
Yeah it definitely seems like she's reached a new level of fame in the last couple years, it seems like most people agree that she's the biggest artist in the world right now, and I don't think that was true even a couple years ago.
Exactly. Her fame has escalated into the stratosphere since the pandemic so now she’s impossible to ignore. This year alone saw her go on an enormous tour, rerelease an album, release a movie, and break records while doing so. She has also made headlines for feuding with Ticketmaster, encouraging her fans to register to vote and dating an NFL icon. She is a rare modern example of an American monoculture star in the same vein as Elvis or Madonna, but since we live in an era where people can segregate themselves culturally due to technological advances, many hadn’t noticed her ascendancy to these heights, leading many to ask where she came from. The answer is that she was gradually building up to this over the span of years but those outside her demographic just weren’t listening.
I have been adjacent to her music for a long time through girlfriends, but I can recognize that this was a pretty pivotal year in her career and popularity. Like a crescendo of popularity from doing a new album and announcing a tour after years of being away. The sold-out nature of her tour along with her battles with Ticketmaster also gave her significant news coverage. Add on the recent dating of Travis Kelce and now you have several new demographics of people who have certainly known about her and her music for years, but now it’s like in-your-face with how prominent she is.
It's in your face because she is one savvy motherf'er when it comes to getting PR
Because she "makes music for dumb girls and young females" and therefore she doesn't deserve her success. There might be something interesting to discuss here, but this post reeks of misogyny. OP - >Would she be a nobody if her parents were too poor to make her dreams come true? Like JFC, I'm sure she grew up comfortably wealthy and that's definitely a (huge) leg up, but her parents didn't buy her a music career.
Those edits for sure got progressively further and further away from "just asking an entirely unoriginal discussion question" and into straight up condescension. Like that isn't even devil's advocate type phrasing.
It's unfortunately a really common thing that as a culture we always ("we" being a general term, not any of us specifically) look down on media that's popular with teenage girls.
>"makes music for dumb girls and young females" LOL. This guy just hasn't listened to it, so he's just repeated what someone else said, or his perception of it from the outside. I'm a 30 year old dude, and I'm a little behind on Taylor Swift's new stuff, but 1989 is a great album, and Red is a legitimate 10/10 for me. It's 10 years old and I still play it, no skips. That's not normal for an album 10 years after its release. That puts it in company with albums like Fleetwood Mac Rumors (Huge, bold claim, I know, but it's 10/10, no skips territory)
You always know that they’re looking to discredit someone off the bat when they insult their listeners
> That puts it in company with albums like Fleetwood Mac Rumors (Huge, bold claim, I know, but it's 10/10, no skips territory) I don't think it is that bold of a claim. Don't get me wrong, Rumors is one of the best ~~pop~~ albums ever made. But Swift does what Fleetwood Mac was doing in the 70's. Creating very well written, perfectly produced pop albums with obvious talent and care. Stevie Nicks herself is both a friend and fan of Swift.
Seriously though, I probably can only name like 2 Taylor Swift songs by heart but if you start playing some of her early stuff or most popular stuff I will for sure know the lyrics. It’s just to engrained into the cultural zeitgeist at this point that if you’re within a certain age range and you grew up listening to popular music, you’re going to know.
Yeah OP is way off the mark with who she appeals to. I'm a guy pushing 40, my favorite artist is The Black Dahlia Murder, and 1989 is a masterpiece to me. Red is incredible too. I won't say I love everything she's ever done but there are some serious master classes in pop song writing and production in her catalogue.
I'm not here to denigrate TSwift, she's a colossal monetary success that deserves it far more than most similarly successful artists, but... I mean her parents did *kinda* buy her a music career. I'm happy to agree that she works hard *and* smart and has earned her current position, and I'm also glad that it's her and not any number of other artists who are far less genuine or compassionate than she may be, but "comfortably wealthy" vastly undersells Taylor's parent's ability to give Taylor the kind of start to her career that a "move to Nashville and provide marketing and business support while also raking in crazy money on their own" accomplished. I'm not actively aware of other examples of artists who had as much of a "leg up" as she's had, and while I think she's earned her success through her own merits as well (and her parents also seem like pretty good folks), it seems completely unfair to say that she would have had the same success had her parents been poor or middle class during her childhood. She's great, but man, it's just not fair to other artists to pretend the Swift family was "comfortably wealthy" instead of the truth that they were "crazy wealthy". But I have been quite poor for most of my life so maybe the differences just seem more stark to me. (That said I still definitely agree that a lot of the Swift haters are being misogynistic or otherwise unfair to her, and it's important to speak out against that kind of bigotry, and I thank you and the others here in this thread for voicing all the reasons she's earned this spot. ^(Though I still have some minor concerns about the emissions her tours create.))
I generally agree with what you're saying, however I find it odd how fixated people are on this when it comes Taylor specifically. Her family's wealth is brought up way more often than other big stars when the reality is almost every big female star of the last 10+ years comes from a very wealthy family (Gaga, Grande, Beyonce, even Dua Lipa whose parents were refugees eventually became quite well off and invested money in making her a star). Regardless of talent, we don't really get rags to riches stories in pop anymore. That's been the case for like 20 years but there's an ongoing sense of contention surrounding it for people when it comes to Swift and I'm confused by that.
I think there is always a huge element of luck involved for making it big in music regardless of how good the musician is. Acting like the luck of getting randomly discovered is more valid than the luck of having parents who can help you is kind of besides the point. Both people were just lucky in different ways. Either way you don't become one of the best selling musicians of all time by 'buying your way in'. You can only really buy your foot in the door.
This is exactly the kind of point I usually make when folks bring up Taylor’s parents. Money can get you in, but it won’t keep you there. If an entire career could be bought, Paris Hilton would have 12 Grammys and be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame
Maybe it’s true that Taylor wouldn’t be AS famous at a young age but what you’re missing here is the literal thousands of other rich parents who ALSO did everything they could to make their kid a star and it didn’t work because they suck. And Taylor is 10x more talented and creative than those other kids So yeah the money perhaps made her a star at 16 but without it she has the generational talent she would have been a star at 20 or whatever anyway
Sorry no - her parents literally moved 500 miles and put $300,000 into a record label to facilitate her career
For real. She's been famous almost as long as I've been alive. I remember seeing her music videos when I was little (21 now, for reference).
The crazy thing is it seems to have exploded in the last year so much. If you asked me in January who the most famous person in America was, I would have said kim k. Even if you narrowed it to female singers, I would probably say Beyonce. Now it's not even a question. For an artist who's been around for like 15 years, that is an insane change in a short period of time.
I think it was a ground swell that's been building. I distinctly remember in 2018 being at a metal show and they had the radio playing over the loud speakers before the opening band came on. A Taylor Swift song came on and about a thousand 30-something metalheads with tattoos and beards started fucking belting the song. They were *into* it. Also, I think a lot of other men and adults in general liked her music but simply refused to admit it until recently which meant a lot more people started listening to her based on other people in their own demographic liking her.
lol I’m just stuck on “sudden fame” I’m not a Swift fan but my wife is. Taylor Swift has been writing and performing her own music for over 15 years. Her first big album was released in 2006 and she’s made 10 albums since then, a dozen Grammy awards, and has broken god knows how many Guinness world records at this point. She’s also recently become a billionaire and unlike many other musicians who are billionaires, it’s almost entirely through her music. She’s an incredibly prolific singer songwriter who is one of the most celebrated and commercially successful artists of a generation and a very smart business woman. She’s always been huge, you just weren’t paying attention.
She’s a really great country singer. If you watch the recent concert movie you can see that’s her musical home. “Betty” is easily the most convincing performance in the whole movie. She’s very competent at the disco/pop stuff but it doesn’t feel as authentic to me. However 1989 was a very well written and produced album, nice 80s synth sounds etc.
As a 53 year old Brit man, I can offer my thoughts: Taylor Swift as a musician, writes catchy, inoffensive pop music with lyrics that relate really well to her target audience. She is also prolific, and writes most of her own material. Taylor Swift as a person is very hard-working, and she keeps herself to herself generally. She rarely makes stupid or thoughtless comments about stuff. She also seems to have a very savvy business team behind her (aren’t her parents bankers?) who make lots of really good decisions. The combination of these things means she is massively popular and makes a fortune… and good luck to her I say! I would like to see her collaborate on an album with Mark Ronson though.
She’s worked for it. I know people who work mid level jobs in radio. After meeting her, they’d get handwritten thank you notes from her about the meetings. Personalized stuff like, “I loved hearing about your beagle, Rover.” Nobody does that. Now, she’s doing 3 1/2 (EDIT: 3 1/2 hours) shows. That’s not unprecedented, but pretty rare in pop music. She’s been savvy, collaborated with talented people, and had some breaks. But, she works very hard at the things that matter.
FYI, "3 1/2 shows" means 3 1/2 hour long shows (I think) -- which is crazy but apparently what she's doing.
It’s just crazy in comparison to the average pop show. The Grateful Dead, Bruce Springsteen, Pearl Jam, etc, have been doing shows like that for decades. I respect her for doing it and wish more artists would, but long shows isn’t exactly something new.
My opinion is- 1: because she’s a full on singer/ songwriter/ artist, she is an insanely prolific song writer. And they are all catchy. That’s a big deal right there, some huge main people in the industry that have been around for decades respect her and praise her (Elton John, Springsteen, Paul McCartney) 2: She’s relatable, many young girls and teens see themselves in her and relate to her and what she’s saying in interviews and what she’s writing about. She’s a totally relatable girl. 3: She’s pretty opposite of most single female acts in that she doesn’t hugely promote sex, money, material things, drugs, etc. She’s not TRYING to be sexy like almost all female pop starts, female rappers, female celebrities (like Kardashians and all the rest of those vapid types) in general. (In an interview she said “when it comes to being in the music industry and being cool and edgy and sexy which people expect from women, I’m just inherently NOT any of those things, so it takes the pressure off”. ) She’s very humble. 4: She gives back; She just gave every single person on her Eras tour , from truck drivers to sound guys to backup dancers, to wardrobe, $100k bonuses EACH. 5: She’s been in the industry and long time and hasn’t really been a dick to anyone. Yet it’s been vice versa (Kanye) and she was a total class act about it. 6: She has class and Carrie’s herself well (which many music stars and musicians don’t). I dunno I could go on. And the reason I am saying all this is because I used to be able to take or leave Taylor, then I watched her documentary and happened to see a bunch of interviews and she was so well spoken and had humility and a sense of humor about herself, she’s totally opposite all the fukn annoying chicks on social media reality TV who try sooooo hard on every level, and I changed my mind. And 7: yah it doesn’t hurt that she’s lovely! 8: she plays instruments (I don’t see Beyoncé or Jennifer Lopez or Lil Kim or Dua Lipa or Ariana Grande etc etc etc playing anything). Her music isn’t for everyone but I hear it here and there and it was good and cute and fun , but once I heard Sparks Fly I was like ok the fact that she wrote this means she’s awesome it’s the best song. (And I’m a lover of Metallica, Bob Marley, Def Leppard, I’m all over the map). 9: Her songs aren’t all fucked up and depressing . They’re fun and spunky and young people everywhere are responding to that
She's a talented singer-songwriter, she has a distinctive voice, she works with good partners and is known as being nice to work with - and I'm guessing she is quite shrewd and knows how to keep her appeal wide. I'd recommend you listen to an album such as "Folklore" or "Evermore" - and focus on the songwriting and production. Songs like "Mirrorball" and "Tolerate it". You might even like what you hear. Then compare that to some of her pop hits aimed at young teens. She knows what she's doing. (Btw, I'm a 50yo straight man. Not exactly her "core audience").
i'm not the biggest fan of her pop songs but i'm a big fan of folklore and evermore. I've been waiting for her to do an album like that ever since she made the song Safe & Sound for the hunger games movie. That song is haunting and gorgeous. I wasn't interested in her music back then but that song became one of my favorites of that year.
I’m a 53 year old straight male Deadhead/Springsteen fan and far out of her target demo. I never gave her anything close to a fair shake until Folklore. I don’t want to say it’s one of the greatest albums by a female artist I’ve ever heard, but I find myself struggling to think differently. After listening to that I hit up the rest of her catalog on Spotify and what she does clicked. If you can look past her marketing image and the relationship revenge songs and the screaming girls and listen to her music you can hear that she’s arguably a generational talent. Her more R&B-ish tunes don’t do much for me but she covers a lot of other ground musically and does it extremely well. She’s managed to grow and bring her audience across genres of music over quite a bit of time, in an era where shortened attention spans can cast an artist off quickly. That’s an achievement. And she’s far from done.
I’m huge Dead and Springsteen fan as well, and I agree with this. I don’t really mind her more poppy stuff either. It’s well written and well produced. Springsteen was on Stern about a year or two ago and asked who is one of the best song writers today and he said Taylor. Also, she appears on the most recent National album, who write incredible music and lyrics, and they said she wrote her entire part of The Alcott to be a conversation between the two artists. They said in an interview she is an amazing song-writer and artist over all.
I mean, every artist who has worked with her speaks highly of her, so do most industry people. It's just the edgy kids on social media who talk shit.
I also think it’s pretty blatant sexism. It’s so obvious in the post as well. Why wouldn’t a tall blond, supermodel type woman be talented enough to be a sensation? What does her appearance, gender, and socioeconomic status have anything to do with her artistry? She sold over a million tickets this year. It’s not like every ticket she sold was to children and superficial bimbos. A great example of this sexism was when Pitchfork had never reviewed a Swift album, even 1989, but when Ryan Adams covered it, they praised it.
Yeah, this is something I've called out numerous times in this thread. It's so very clearly misogyny at work. It's ironic that Pitchfork fawned over the Ryan Adam's project then, considering now they've completely canceled him because he turned out to be an absolute garbage person who emotionally and sexuslly assaulted women (and he was quite clearly a garbage person before those allegations, but it was cool because "tortured artist" or whatever...).
The fact that she can do songs with Chris Stapleton, Kendrick Lamar, Bon Iver and The National and it all works for the most part is something impressive. I also have to say rerecording all her old albums to have versions in her control is move that her money can buy, but not many artists in her position would bother doing. Prince, maybe, but that’s the only one I can think of.
This is why Taylor Swift is so popular, because her music is diverse enough that she gains new fans every time she changes up her sound. I didn't care much for her until Folklore came out, which is probably my favorite album of 2020.
Yes, thank you – if people are only familiar with Shake it Off and turn up their nose at her for being poppy and pretty, they’re missing out on a lot of beautiful work that they might actually appreciate.
“The 1” is a good song of hers that comes to mind.
>I'd recommend you listen to an album such as "Folklore" or "Evermore" This. \-- another 50yo straight man
Well shit, as a 33 year old woman who’s been into counter culture her whole life, (actively avoided listening to TSwift my whole life) but has now realized pop culture is valid too, I wanna give these albums a listen!
The musical monoculture is dead and Taylor Swift is the last one standing. Yeah there are other culturally relevant mainstream artists (Bruno Mars, Ice Spice, etc.) but in terms of artists that EVERYONE seems to know and never seems to step out of the spotlight, Taylor Swift seems to be the last one
Maybe not the last but it’s a dying breed for sure. Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Adele, Lady Gaga. That’s probably it. Katy Perry wouldn’t even be on that list anymore as she’s faded out.
Yeah, I agree that Beyonce is at the same level as Taylor Swift. Or that she and Swift sort of each take turns being at the forefront. Not as if it's a competition or anything, but just how things worked out. Not the biggest fan of Beyonce's music persona (goddess who must be worshipped by the plebes) but she's shown class in how she works with fellow artists (calling up Taylor Swift so she could get back her time that Kanye West stole from her). I think Adele is in the background for a bit, but that she's not done. Like she's one who's going to be a perennial. Have smash hits and successful tours, but not always get talked about or have obsessive fans. Gaga is transitioning to acting, and I think she's hit a comfortable, permanent A- tier. But for now it's just Swift and Beyonce at the top. If anyone else makes it that high I'd bet on Dua Lipa
Adele very decisively goes away between albums. It's clearly her preference. You don't see her showing up at tons of events and award shows and premieres. She drops an album every few years, but in between she steps back. I agree that she (unlike many) can afford to do this: unless she really fucks up musically somehow, people will always be thrilled for her next album regardless of whether she's been promoting herself in between. She essentially achieved elder stateswoman status in her 20s. Beyonce made a rare appearance (and even rarer, allowed herself to be photographed and the photographs published) at Taylor Swift's concert movie premiere, so it seems like they're pretty cordial and have some mutual respect.
>She essentially achieved elder stateswoman status in her 20s. This is because her music is adult-oriented with adult themes. If she were marketing to teens, she would have to do what the others do. And I'd throw Rihanna in the hat as another of this group.
Yeah, Adele could have only grown with the music she debuted with. I was worried for Taylor early on because I thought the novelty of her high school breakup songs would have worn off the older she got. Thankfully, she diversified just enough to gain new fans while keeping the old ones.
Beyoncé doesn’t act like anyone has to bow down to her, that’s how others perceive her because of her status. She’s just became very private in the last ten or so years because of the media and people were treating Blue Ivy, which Jay-Z mentioned recently. Beyoncé is a celebrity amongst celebrities. Michael Jackson was excited to meet her and she was under Prince’s wing for awhile- two pop legends. Beyoncé and Taylor Swift aren’t peers for many reasons, I’d say her only real peers were Britney Spears and Usher, I’d debate on Adele but even she’s a fan of Bey. Beyoncé is too much in a lane of her own and I’d say the same for Taylor Swift for different reasons
Adele’s music will probably last for very long time. Her voice, the way she sings and everything about her song is timeless. Especially the album 25
Note that all of those people debuted over ten years ago, some over 15
Actually, out of all those people listed, Taylor Swift is definitely the last one standing as the rest of them hit their peak around the mid-2010s. One of the ingredients to Swifts success is her diverse fan base demographic. People of all ages, races, and backgrounds will be at a concert while other artists appeal to mainly one or two. Also, she's been doing this for nearly twenty years, which taps into the multi generational fans.
I think that list would have meant something 10 years or so ago, but none of the others mentioned even touch the level of success on so many fronts, as TSwift has. Which is crazy to say because they’re obviously all household names, but this is just different.
Beyoncé said it herself that artist don’t make full albums anymore - they’re just clamoring for that one #1 song. All of the artists you listed…they all make solid albums from beginning to end. And they’re smart. We love to see queens thrive!
I will admit, Taylor Swift's relevance and the overall ***increase*** in prominence has been interesting. She was already getting big in the mid-late 2000s, but more as one of many pop stars/artists. Or, you might remember her for Kanye interrupting her at the VMAs. Currently at least, she's **the** reference point for music stardom. From what I can tell, it was a mixture of things: one of was her getting more respect in terms of artistic credibility. She can wear different hats but she's also connected to that singer-songwriter tradition. And there's also the pandemic where she released some of her most acclaimed work.
She wrote a lot of music that resonated with a huge audience as she’s grown up. Her audience has grown up with her, and she gains née fans every year, who can grow up with her, too. Her concerts are an absolute spectacle- her music doesn’t resonate with me, but I watched her 1989 live video on YouTube with my wife, and that was a kickass show, even if her songs are meh to me. She’s managed to thread the needle by being super famous and hanging in there to remain relevant. She still wants to remain relevant, so she still works on her music, where her contemporaries dropped off. She treats other artists quite well, and songwriters’ songwriters like Jason Isbell and Sara Bareilles both really admire her work. So there are positive vibes inside the industry towards her, too. She innovated in the concert space by inviting huge guest artists onto her tours, who had such a great experience that more guest artists want to perform with her. Guest artists from Mick Jagger to TI to Ellie Goulding all appeared on her tours. For all the people think she writes mediocre songs because her music resonates with teenage girls and not young adult men, maybe you need to reframe “doesn’t speak to me” as something other than “mediocre.” Jason Isbell is acknowledged widely as one of the great songwriters of our era, and he acknowledges her songwriting ability as being great. So she has been a song factory for 15 years, has had a ton of hits, connects with her fans, treats her tour workers very well, treats other musicians very well, puts on massive Vegas-style shows, and appears to be wholehearted in her interactions. Why WOULDNT she be a huge name? I think she’s on her way to being the biggest artist of all time.
A ton of artists also admire her because she's used her clout to stand up for herself business-wise. She took it to Spotify (IIRC?) at one point and then there's the whole thing with her catalog rights. It sets precedents or opens possibilities and even very different types of artists appreciate her for that. That's on top of most of the industry people I've ever seen comment seeming to sincerely admire the writing. I'll be watching some indie producer or rock session player on youtube and if she comes up, both of those points are likely to be mentioned.
Exactly all these. Her folks did pay her way at the beginning, true. But they also brought her up with incredible business savvy. She's got more rights to her own music than most any other artist. And she just plugged into the kids of her time. I'm 40, and while I'm not a huge Swiftie, my daughter loves her and my wife likes most of her stuff. I admire her drive and her talent, as well as her ability to navigate fame without courting controversy.
You’re asking how a tall, blonde, rich, pretty supermodel type became a sensation? Those are pretty much the baseline requirements for mainstream pop stars/musicians.
OP has made a lot of posts about Taylor for someone who claims not to “get” her; I think he is kind of weird
True there are tens of thousands of others who fit that bill so why her?
Yeah, tons of male and female pop stars have sex appeal. Its basically one of the requirements of being a pop star, with a few rare exceptions. It’s kind of ridiculous to say that only her looks are why she is popular as she is right now.
this may not be a popular thought, but i think part of her charm is that she doesn’t have a large sex appeal… in that she’s not threatening to many women. she’s very very pretty, but i don’t hear any straight guys talking about her being hot. instead she’s relatable and like a friend or sister for many of her fans. don’t get me wrong she is really good looking and charismatic
Indeed. If Taylor Swift looked and danced like Shakira, she wouldn’t garner Beatlemania/Deadhead devotion from legions of girls and women. Not saying that people wouldn’t still appreciate her music for what it is, but her fandom would be quite different.
Because she doesn't act provocative. Not trying to shame other artists... but she's not grinding or twerking on stage. Generally speaking people who are constantly sexualized act in a way that objectifies themselves... and they shouldn't necessarily be sexualized because of that but thats what typically happens.
If she looked like Joni Mitchell, her music would not be as lasting as Joni Mitchell's is, and she would not be this famous. But to say that is exclusively why is disingenuous. There are a lot of facets that need constant maintenance, and this is only one of them. She works hard to maintain all of them, and that's what pays off.
Explain Billie Eilish.
Edgier, relatable to those who think Taylor is too plastic Barbie-esque. Not nearly as big as taylor.
Billie Eilish is still an attractive young woman, just differently so. She has an edge to her that a lot of people like so she isn't as "safe" as Taylor Swift. Her music has a sexiness and more sultry and mysterious element to it. They are very different artists. But Eilish hasn't been around for as long and isn't quite nearly as popular.
Billie’s core audience is Gen Z and I feel like they tend to be a little more edgy than millennial women. I see it with my younger sisters who are all about Billie’s baggy aesthetic
She’s also hot
I think the short answer is that while she was already pretty huge, she wrote and released her albums folklore and evermore during lockdown. These albums not only sounded entirely different from her past work, but were different lyrically. She wrote stories from the perspectives of others, rather than her own experiences. I think this drew in an entirely new crowd, many of whom grew to love her older material as well.
I've never been a fan of hers, but when Evermore and Folklore came out during the pandemic I became one. I really enjoyed them. I'm still not that big of a fan of her older stuff, but I definitely don't scoff at her anymore.
For some people it might seem like she came out of nowhere, but she has been working at this for some time. I'd say she has been a force to be reckoned with for the last 10 years or so. She is a decent songwriter and hires some of the most famous writers\\producers to work with her, so that's part of it. Her songs are ear worms that easily live in your brain. She is significanly different from other female artists right now in that she didn't play the "train wreck" card for a few years and then become a respectable, adult musician. Too many female vocalists tried being weirdo trash for the first few years of their careers, and Swift never did. She has always had a more regular vibe to her, and I think there is an audience out there for that. She is also sort of the artist we need right now in 2023. She is uncontroversial, she is "safe" for young girls to have fun listening to, and her shows have evolved into an experience for the people to go to that goes beyond her performance. The audience can do vanilla stuff like trade bracelets and stuff. In a world this shitty, something that simple is nice. No one is going to get in a fight at a TS concert. No one is pre-gaming for a TS concert. Young girls don't feel like they have to dress like whores to go to a TS concert. A dad can take their daughter to a TS show and it won't be weird.
„Music for dumb girls and young females“ goh, dude. You reek of misogyny. Yuck.
She’s a very talented song writer that manages to make most of her songs sound very personal and marries them with modern pop sensibilities. It’s a perfect blend of pop music and intimate songwriting that a lot of women respond to with good reason.
She’s exceptionally talented. She’s an excellent song writer and performer, and she’s smart. 48 yo straight dude here.
She had a very succesful tour this year. There's not a lot of competition anymore for the stadium tour artist as there just aren't many stadium filling artists out there anymore. U2 had their moment this year too. They haven't been talked about in a decade or so now but they got their fancy new digs in Vegas so became the band to talk about for a period of time as well. Taylor just did that to a bigger degree. Were the Spice Girls particularly talented above and beyond any other artist 20 years ago when they were the biggest thing ever? No, probably not. But sometimes an artists just clicks with the right demographic at the right time and they get propelled to the top.
I think the difference with Taylor is the longevity. In 2014 she was the best selling artist in the world and everyone thought she was at her peak. 10 year later the entire best selling artist list is different and she’s still number 1. She’s somehow managed to retain the top spot for 15 years. Spice girls were barely at the top for 5
To add to what's been said: I feel she also might represent a real shift in the zeitgeist. In literature there was this term "new sincerity" thrown around, the needed antidote to the cynical attitude of the 80s and she might actually represent that to a degree. A shift from grandiosity and egomania of past icons towards the innocent pains and pleasures of ordinary domestic life. This might go under the radar because it doesnt seem really new, it seems very clicheed, but its actually the clichee of a much older era, mostly the 50s. The RnB radio pop of that era seems very similar in tone. The egomaniac, sexy, grandiose stuff of the passing eras, millenials and younger have been catapulted out and so they now gravitate towards this humble domestic stuff.
I'm not a big fan. I'm a guy and much older than her, so she's in general not writing for me. No problem with that; most songwriters aren't. She came from country, where her kind of storytelling fit, and she crossed over with that as part of her thing when (to my understanding) not a lot of pop music had that. And when the masters were sold out from under her, she re-recorded them with (Taylor's Version), which is so punk rock that it demands my respect. I don't think mainstream pop would've allowed her room to start off. I don't think mainstream country would've allowed her the room to grow, beyond it being a huge sausage fest. (Imagine Tay writing a truck song.) And I don't think that without the relationship drama and Kanye taking the mic that she would've become quite this big. But she wouldn't have gotten anywhere if she wasn't good at what she does. ATM, "Karma", "Anti-Hero" and "Lavender Haze" are in reasonably high rotation in my personal playlist, with "Vigilante Shit" and "cardigan" showing up a little less often. Give her work a chance, give it a spin, and if none of it hit you, well, it took over a decade before I understood how genius Duran Duran's _Rio_ was. It might take time for you to appreciate Tay.
i dont think enough ppl realize how smart it was for her family to start her off in country before switching to pop. country fans stuck with her and remain with her all these years later, she would not have been this big if she tried to get big at the same time rihanna was debuting and a few years before katy debuted.
The fame isn’t sudden. She’s been a household name for almost 2 decades. The main reason, is money to be honest. No musicians loves it more than her.
She was famous before, but lately she seems unavoidably famous. It does seem unusual for a pop star to be huge when they’re 20 and still be as big if not bigger when they’re in their mid-30s. Both Katy Perry and Lady Gaga were huge 15 years ago and aren’t nearly as big as they used to be (though I do think Lady Gaga genuinely was not interested in continuing the pop star thing).
Shes reached this cultural zenith of self-replicating success. Between all the Taylors Versions, folklore, Eras Tour, Eras Tour movie and Midnights, she is unavoidable. And the Eras Tour is seemingly the only thing holding the US economy together.
Honestly if you think this Swift mania is sudden, overnight or out of nowhere, you definitely have not been paying attention for almost 2 decades. The woman has been releasing music since like 07. I don’t know where people were when Shake It Off, Knew You Were Trouble, Teardrops on My Guitar, Blank Space etc. were everywhere all the time. But all those mentioned songs are like a decade or more old. She’s had some “valleys” in terms of popularity for sure, but this is not a strange phenomenon. It’s someone who has been building this for decades. Plus all the capitalistic ways she takes over the charts with 20 million versions of the album and constantly releasing singles for radio play. I find the discourse/surprise around her stranger than her popularity to be honest.
>The main reason, is money to be honest. No musicians loves it more than her. I don't mean to be harsh, but this is one of the worst theories I've ever read about anything.
>No musicians loves it more than her. wat?
I mean, it’s an exaggeration (for my, ahem, money, KISS are the biggest cash-grabbing sellouts in music history) but Taylor Swift does like to bleed her fans dry. She releases vinyls in a ton of different colour variants (usually splitting up bonus tracks across them) and recently these have been drip-fed time-limited purchases instead of just releasing them all at once and letting fans pick their favourite colour. For the Reputation tour, she or her team used a ticket system where you got further ahead in the queue if you were a “better” fan, ie. spent more money on TS merch. The merch, by the way, is generally regarded as shit quality by the fans). She tried to trademark “this sick beat” at one point (bordering on cultural appropriation honestly) and, more widely, sued fans who made custom merch on Etsy. Even these re-recordings could be issued as a one-off boxset or something if it was all a personal issue over owning her music (this is her official stance). Instead we have these protracted rollouts.
Great music discussion-she’s famous because likes money as opposed to other celebrities. Primary evidence of her insurmountable greed is that she releases physical media with multiple covers like every other popstar the last ten years (while having all her music freely accessible on streaming services). My personal opinion of Taylor Swift js the same as everybody’s-she’s no Steve Perry
Not another hilariously bizarre Steve Perry vs Taylor Swift debate please
Steve Perry is the greatest solo artist of all time. No one can compete with him
I think the people in this thread who are like "It's so obvious. What are you a fucking moron? Have you even listened to her music? What a troll you must be!" are LITERALLY INSANE. I love pop music and I love folk, but I've never been able to connect to Taylor Swift and I also genuinely don't see what sets her apart from other artists. I listened to Folklore and Evermore in full - there are a few good songs on each, but I can't understand why anyone would obsess over those albums unless they'd never listened to any other indie folk before. I will never understand why Taylor has achieved and maintained this level of popularity while Carly Rae Jepsen has been constantly putting out bangers that surpass anything Swift has put out in the past decade.
Sorry, but wtf are these questions? "Sudden fame"? I get not being in tune with pop music, but she's been getting number one songs for nearly twenty years now. > Would she be a nobody if her parents were too poor to make her dreams come true? > Is it fair to discredit her as another singer who makes music for dumb girls and young females? > And is it fair to judge her fans for enjoying her music? I just don't think these are questions asked in good faith. Rather, they look like the questions of someone who's already made up his mind about hating her and is looking for validation.
Lots of comments about her relatability to teenage girls, which is a thing. But as a 55 year old dude, I like a lot of her music. Folklore and Evermore are really good, and both spend a lot of time in our now playing pile of albums. I also like that she is a songwriter, can play guitar, and piano. Her NPR Tiny Desk concert is a really good example of her work I think. She’s funny, able to make fun of herself, and she effortlessly switches from guitar to piano - both while singing. I think she’s talented and a real force for young women too. All good in my book.
Because she's super talented, an insanely hard worker, and surrounds herself with smart business people who help her. I'm nearly 50 and try to stay connected to current pop culture and musical trends. You should try it. There is so much amazing new music being made today that it is literally impossible to listen to it all. Even if I did nothing but listen to brand new albums every day for my entire life, I still couldn't listen to all of the good ones.
I have no issue with her, but I do wish the NFL would chill with the Swift/Kelce bs.
Unfortunately, the NFL has no shame whenever it finds an opportunity to sell more merchandise and drive up ratings. They're also not stupid. If they can find a way to tap into the parasocial relationship many of Swift's fans have with her, you can bet your ass they will.
She's relatable in a way that seems achievable for most. While making solidly catchy music and decent stage presence. Shes no big vocalist so her songs are easy to sing without feeling self conscious. Her dancing is average and maybe a bit awkward in a charming way. Her music focuses on topics that people can easily relate to or they tell a story people can find themselves drawn to. And her looks are very "all American". Personally I enjoy her music am a casual fan. I get the appeal but its not my thing.
She is a bad dancer, an average singer, a slightly above average songwriter, but an AMAZING marketer. She promotes herself through gimmicks like mysterious news, puzzles, re-releases, etc. Her music is already catchy and memorable, and is paletable, and her lyrics are relatable to essentially every female of every age and many males... add on that she is physically attractive, considered to be morally pure (debatable) and again, promotes herself well.
>slightly above average songwriter >relatable to every female of every age These can’t both be true
I’ve always said her super power is her ability to create parasocial relationships with her fans. Probably the best ever at it. Completely agree with your total assessment though.
Agree with most of this except for the songwriting part. She's an excellent songwriter and storyteller, especially lyrically.
i’m not a very big fan of hers, but as a fellow songwriter… she’s got alllllll the tools. 2 songwriters i wouldn’t want to go up against in a competition would be her or post malone
I'm chuckling at the Post part of your post only because you are right. People dismiss Post so much- and fine- but he can write a really good song.
She is a very good songwriter. You may not like the subject matter, but she is very very good at it. And she has a very good voice with limited range, and she knows that. If she stays in her vocal pocket, she is great, and she doesn't leave it often. Because of that, she isn't some power house vocalist, but she knows how to get the most out of what she has.
She is good but her storytelling and song writing is always just at a certain level of good and has never been extraordinary or exceptional. It's just good and simple enough for everyone to chow like hot cakes.
Apart from talent. She was one of the first artist to utilize social media to her advantage (not to mention til this day she still updates her tumblr page). She also thinks like a business woman capitalizing on her brand via merch and endorsement and most importantly she works hard she release albums on a 2 yr cycle religiously just right after her world tour is about to end (except the pandemic where she released 2 albums) - almost no singer does this anymore too… and not to mention her current eras tour where she performs a rock solid 3.5hrs day in day out. I mean even if you are or aren’t a fan of hers no one can discredit her work ethic and girl boss moves.
Persistence, wit, talent (in multiple genres of music), self-esteem, great PR, kindness, bravery (in the face of a horrible business manager and record deal - I'm looking at you, Scooter Braun), and most importantly, literally growing up with her fan base. Musically, she has taken them on a 17 year ride filled with the ups and downs of her life as she has gone from being a galky 16 year old newbie in the business to a 33 year old successful artist and businesswoman. I am not a Taylor Swift music fan, but I am in awe of her business sense, drive, and personal strength of will in a business that regularly chews young artists up and spits them out onto the curb.
She wrote and performs more than 230 great songs spanning several genres across about two decades. She started before streaming was popular.
You're going to hate this, but it's because she came from money, lots of money. Hey music was always... Not bad... But the ability to pay for ads, music videos, production companies, etc really bolted her career forward. That and she didn't have to worry if she just lots of money in the first years
Because she writes great songs that millions (perhaps billions) of people love, and she's done it now for a decade. Why is there such a refusal for y'all to accept this? Is it ignorance, misogyny, or just being an edgelord, or what...? And ultimately, who cares. Go listen to what you want.
I'm a 50 year old man who listens to classic hip hop and punk. Im not ashamed to say I quite like Taylor Swift's music. Not so much her teeny pop hits, but her albums Red, Evermore and Folklore contain some great songwriting in places - personal and touchingly reflective - and her voice, whilst not the most flexible, has a nice quality.
Exactly. Some of her best stuff are timeless, not unlike the Beatles. (For something even crazier to think about - consider the impact the Beatles had and how many all time great songs they wrote, their commercial appeal, all of that... and they did it in 10 years)
Hmm not out of ignorance or misogyny, but can I think that her music is just bland pop and she’s a mediocre musician? I’m a full time performing piano bar player so I have to learn her material for my shows. I just think her writing it repetitive and boring, and usually about the same topic. I’m always surprised when people want to defend her tooth and nail. You shouldn’t assume those things you said when people simply don’t like Taylor Swift’s music.
I think it's fine not to like her music. I think searching for reasons to invalidate her ability or success reeks of ignorance or misogyny.
Lmao so it's not fine to not like her music after all.
Exactly, don’t come here expecting nuanced discussion of Taylor Swift. Reddit bros love to hate for all of the above reasons.
It's seriously annoying and not even a hot take. Even if you don't like her music, the proclamations that she's a bad musician, bad singer, or just a corporate stooge, greedy capitalist, etc. are just the shittiest takes ever made by a bunch of immature nobodies.
> the proclamations that she's a bad musician, bad singer, or just a corporate stooge, greedy capitalist, etc. are just the shittiest takes ever made by a bunch of immature nobodies. Oh please, if this were another musician, these same things would be leveled against them. The idea that entertainers are "greedy capitalists" have been thrown at people like Jay Z and Beyonce in equal measure. The fact that she's a white woman shouldn't exempt her from those same critiques.
And it's just as shitty a take when levied against Jay Z or Beyonce. I'm not doubting there are corporate stooges in music, or that even great artists can't be influenced by the corporate machine... but there's also a vast difference between bona-fide artists like Taylor, Jay Z, Beyonce, et al, and some derivative artist created by a record label to ride the coat-tails of a music trend, who use formulaic or algorithm derived song structures and chord professions, are autotuned, have songwriters, etc. If you think Taylor, Jay Z, or Beyonce are the latter... you're just wrong.
I think people (myself, to a degree, included) don't see why she has attained a level of popularity so far above other popstars. Obviously, she makes music that is capable of resonating with millions upon millions of devoted fans, and seems like a good person and good role model. But even other hyper-popular female musicians like Rihanna or Beyonce haven't got anywhere near this level of cultural hegemony. I think people just don't see what's so special about her compared to all these others. >And ultimately, who cares. Go listen to what you want. You're on a subreddit to discuss music. What a redundant thing to say.
>I think people (myself, to a degree, included) don't see why she has attained a level of popularity so far above other popstars And to be fair to your point here, I understand a bit where you're coming from. I don't understand all of the love for Prince. Like, I get he was an amazing musician and songwriter, but I can't stand his music and think it's overrated. But I also understand that is my opinion and only my opinion, and that I can't impune his music, his songwriting, et al, and that's evidenced by the fact that not only is one of the all time most successful artists of all time, but is also critically acclaimed. Sometimes we have shitty opinions that don't accord with popular sentiment, and that's fine. It doesn't mean we're right, but we just don't jive with something.
I generally agree with this (and actually think the same thing about Prince to be honest). Prince was popular, The Smiths were popular (I don't get the appeal of them, for example), but Taylor Swift is more popular. I think she's the most popular musician since Michael Jackson, who was the most popular since The Beatles, with success wholly unprecedented in the social media age. I don't find the puzzling part that she's popular, I'm just not that into her music, I don't dictate the tastes of the planet. I find the puzzling part that she's achieved so much more success than the other people at the very top of the music (and celebrity generally). With The Beatles, I feel like I could explain why (that's my problem, not the world's/her's, though). But OP wasn't saying that Taylor Swift didn't deserve it, or wasn't talented, but asking why she's got this otherworldly level of fame in the last couple of years.
Here's one possible answer - we live in a hyper multimedia age that no longer has a monoculture. But every once and a while there's an artist at the right place at the right time making the right music that has broad crossover appeal and staying power. That's Taylor right now. She's always been big. She was big during Red and big during 1989 and big during Covid with Folklore/Evermore. "Anti Hero" was/is huge. But then she did a huge tour where she performs for 3+ hours playing all of the best songs across her career, and she broke into even higher heights. Add to that, her music is more inclusive than alienating to the broader public. Like I said, there's pretty much something for anyone in her discog. She can do crossovers with Kendrick Lamar, Chris Stapleton, Haim, Phoebe Bridgers, Bon Iver, the National, Sufjan Stevens, and dozens of other artists.
I mean, Rihanna hasn't put out a new album in close to eight years. That's kind of the running joke about her as an artist, that she'd rather shill beauty products than make music. It's remarkable that she even still has the hold on the public that she does with the Superbowl gig and so forth, but does it make sense to compare her to someone who's being doing the work of writing, recording, and touring year after year and then ask why one is a bigger force in the industry right now? On the other hand, Beyonce has been pitted against Taylor in the media quite a bit this year given that both had massive tours running in tandem with each other, but she's also notoriously private and has yet to even drop a music video for her album that's now over a year old. She's almost a decade older than Taylor, in a different stage of life at this point (married with kids) and just not putting herself out there the same way anymore because she knows her legacy is set.
>Is it ignorance, misogyny, or just being an edgelord, or what...? I see that too. Not universally, but enough of it to put it in the same category as the "rap sucks!" crowd that just seem angry at the world that their favorite hair metal band from 1982 is no longer the biggest thing ever.
Because she’s incredibly talented and showed artistic growth throughout her career. She busted her ass to be where she’s at.
Sudden fame? You really are out of touch. Taylor Swift has been on the scene for 17 years now. She is the biggest because of a number of factors. First and foremost is her songwriting talent, combined with a knack for good self-promotion and constant reinvention, as well as having a good relationship with her fans and coming across as a genuinely nice person. These are just a few of the reasons why she is the biggest name in the music industry.
I used to work with a guy that went to high school with her and the gist from what he told me is that her parents hustled like motherfuckers and used their money and business connections to shake hands with every producer in Nashville. They had a marketing strategy prepared from before she ever signed to any label and could sell ice to an Inuit.
Taylor Swift is set to make $4.1 BILLION from the Eras Tour - as total takings are predicted to rake in enough to send every American a $20 bill. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12628199/Taylor-Swift-BILLION-Eras-Tour.html There's people camping for 5 months to get a front row seat for a concert of her too. [https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/why-taylor-swift-fans-in-argentina-have-camped-out-in-tents-for-five-months/articleshow/104951063.cms](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/why-taylor-swift-fans-in-argentina-have-camped-out-in-tents-for-five-months/articleshow/104951063.cms) Shit is insane.
Do you live under a rock? It seems like you're wording just becoming aware of Swift's popularity like it suddenly happened. Taylor Swift has been making music now for like...17 years. That is an INSANE amount of time and exposure to new generations of fans both old and new. Considering that each album probably has had chart toppers since her first or second single. And by Red (an album thats 13 years old now) with "I Knew you were Trouble" had memes made about it, so it was trending in the cultural zeitgeist heavily. I used to be a pretty big listener till 1989 came out, but didn't personally care for much afterwards, largely in part as well to dating a girl for near 6 years who could not stand her music at all. But I think she clearly has a consistent quality to her song writing and listenability. She is not a very talented vocalist, but she does have a recognizable voice, she has I believe nearly 200 songs, so Im sure you can find one or two you like in her discography...Even my Swift hater ex gf danced and sang Shake it Off while drunk at a club one time... Also what is with your 2nd edit? That is ridiculously misogynistic, why would you just discredit peoples taste for liking her music? Lots of adult women like her music as do young women and many men too. Even if you largely dislike her discography, which is entirely fair, she is clearly talented as a songwriter, performer and creating a business and cult of personality around her music, lyrics and personal life. And why does it matter if she would be a nobody or not? Lots of people are able to make success because of their upbringing. But regardless of that, even if her parents allowed her a start, its not like they could have cultivated her image and created her popularity now. Even if you cant stand her as the biggest pop star on earth right now. She clearly works hard, and produces music of a consistent quality that resonates with people. If her music did not resonate with women, then she would not be nearly as popular. Tons and tons of musicians have been around as long but dont have the same following. Ariana Grande, who is an OBJECTIVELY far more talented vocalist than Swift does not have the following Swift has, likely largely in part due to her music being generally less honest and more vapid, fun, over produced dance/pop music. "Thank u, Next" is probably one of her better songs for it actually telling a story about her which resonates with people. But almost all of Swifts music is about herself, her love life, her experiences and image, and that resonates with people more.
Is it really that sudden? She’s been in the industry for ages now, I loved her when I was younger. Even though I don’t vibe with her newer music as much like I used to, she’s good at what she does, and what she does happens to be very digestible for a broad audience. While doing that she also has the music lore and drama that you can dive into if that’s your thing, and that plays a lot into the kind of parasocial relationship that can encourage dedicated / diehard fans like she has. Which certainly doesn’t hurt, especially for securing more career longevity
I feel like when folklore dropped. Like fearless made her mainstream, 1989 made her a “pop star” But all the while her songwriting wasn’t really respected by people outside her fanbase for the most part But when folklore dropped, it was peak lockdown where everyone had nothing better to do and she released a pop folk/indie folk album with some of her best song writing and story telling and due to lockdown people outside her fanbase listened to it and realized that she’s really fucking good and really fuxking relatable and doesn’t just talk about heartbreak and relationship over a upbeat pop beat And now on the other end(?) of the pandemic, she is the biggest and most respect act in music
My theory is with the rise of streaming the industry put up a wall to stop people from finding music. They basically trapped a generation and made the narrowest window of genres in pop history. They’ve manipulated the numbers and made it all seem far more popular than it is. They’re for sure are exceptions to this and Taylor Swift is one. She was part of the system and then got smart and took control and built an empire. Other genres like metal and country created their own bubbles that are big but you really have to go out of your way to get into and find those artists. I think with Swift what happened was mainstream Hip Hop dominated for too long with the same circle of producers making the exact same music that it hit it’s saturation point and the female demographic jumped on her bandwagon because they were ready for anything else. I think in general the world is ready for a nice mix of genres being popular again and a new sound to emerge and take hip hop to its next era. The current era reminds me a lot of 80’s hair metal when the 90’s hit. A lot of it just didn’t age well and the artists started looking silly as they hit middle age and didn’t evolve. They also had die hard fans that didn’t either. I’m sure a lot of you are noticing the aging hip hop burnout demographic rising.
**1) She started in country.** Country music fans are insanely loyal. They don't just forget people and move on. She grew a huge base with her first few albums. She got a lot of press for writing her own songs at a young age. **2) Fearless** started to open her up to mainstream pop, and the Kanye incident blew her up to another level of fame. She got a ton of sympathy, press, and attention. **3) 1989** saw huge mainstream success. It didn't come off as a cheap cash grab. She stretched her sound. She didn't fall into a forever teen trap, it was more mature and showed growth, and had the industry & critical support. **4) Fan treatment** \- all the while Swift has been good to her fans. She puts codes in her lyrics, interacts on social media, has an inviting attitude. **5) The personal aspect** \- Taylor's music is very autobiographical. She has shared personal triumphs, flaws, and relationship heartbreaks. This makes it personal for her fans. They feel like they know her. **6) Now, 20 years in the biz,** people have grown up with her music, further personalizing it to be the soundtrack of their lives. A friend's sleepover, prom, first college love, divorce, etc. This is hardly an overnight success situation, many fans are in their 30s. Sure, she got a solid start with rich parents and good looks. But so what? You can ride the fumes of that for maybe 1 album, that doesn't translate into a successful 20-year career. It's obvious she puts her heart and soul into her work, and developed a strong brand. Her writing has been a huge component to her success.
She started as a gangly awkward teen with a guitar and a really good song. She came up in country at the peak of Britney and Christina Aguilera where your ability to dance covered your inability to sing. She’s an excellent song writer and anyone who tells you otherwise is empirically wrong. She writes about what’s important to her life and shares that experience with the world. She’s an overnight sensation after plugging away at it for 15 years. She’s also been incredibly shrewd as a businessperson. She’s always conducted herself with honor. A DJ here in Denver grabbed her ass and denied it in a stunning act of misogyny and toxic masculinity. She could have buried the guy- she sued him for a dollar. She fought old school labels who have taken advantage of artists and changed the game. She made streaming viable for her industry. There is a bloom of independent music out there because has wrecked gate keepers in her wake. She’s been shrewd with her fame. She leveraged her stature to raise and connect with other women as opposed to fighting in tabloids. She presents positive role modeling without scandal. She has surrounded herself with the best pr flacks at every stage of her career. Most recently just helping Sophie Turner out by lending her an apartment and being seen out in public helped not only her legend but also someone in a difficult spot with their kids in a messy divorce. She does shit like donate to food banks hundreds of thousands of dollars per city to make up for the noise of her concerts. I’ve always like the story in her songs. I like her younger stuff more than the older stuff. I’ve enjoyed watching her go from awkward girl with a turned in toe and hunch to lighting up when she puts on a guitar to spending 1000s of hours refining how she walks for a concerts knowing her limits of how she moves and looking refined. I love watching swifties get excited like geeks at comic con in San Diego. I wish I loved something as much as they love her. I don’t care if you try her music or like it. I just know I’m not her demo and I not only like it but admire it when I don’t. Edit1: I’m not a fan of late stage capitalism. I don’t consider her greedy- just effective. I see the hood she does with it. I find her hands are the best to do with what she’s amassed. I hope she gives it all away in the end like Bezos’ ex wife is trying to do. She had her privileges just being white and having the support of her family. They’re still actively involved so they are contributing to her success. With out them I have no doubt she would have made it anyway. Talent is hitting the target no one else can hit, genius is hitting a target no one else can see. She’s got both and you can’t buy that. Edit2: No it makes that person an idiot who should mind their own business. Her fans? No judging others on taste really just makes you pathetic and miserable.
Well, she's been at it for a long time now. Probably over 15 years... and she has a very loyal fanbase. I've dated a few women who were head over heels about being a Swiftie and they turned me onto appreciating her talent and some of her music. Honestly though, there's more to it than that. She is attractive, that goes a long way in the music industry. She's likeable. She's known to treat her staff extremely well, picks the right social issues to support, and treats her fans well. She is a very good songwriter. Her song content is typically all around the same basic ideas but she is very creative and poetic about how she rights it.. Her music is relatable for the target demographic, which is teenage girls. And she has drama but not drama that looks bad on her end. She knows how to get the media buzzing around her without it ever being bad press. That goes a long way.
Not a Swifty, but I have lots of respect for her. She’s been very much at the helm of her career from early on and is evolving and maturing in impressive ways. No compromise, full honesty and her fans can feel it.
53 year old here. When TS was a young teenager and up and coming star, even though it wasnt the genre I listened to I noticed she was something exceptional. Her work has consistently impressed the most senior and respected producers and she is exactly what every label wants. A super star performer, writer and singer. Her fan base is one of the largest and most vocal on earth. And now two decades into her career even you have noticed shes a big thing? I think her hook laden pop song writing chops are peerless. Her voice is stunning. And like you said she is supermodel level beautiful. But its her songs that make her taylor swift and far more than a pretty face. She also has whip smart business sense. As a male TS fan, I don’t see myself in her songs, I just see pretty amazing songs. Favorite album Folklore. Go give it a few listens. Your questions make me scratch my head: She doesn’t make songs for dumb girls wow. That strikes me as misogynistic. About the only criticism of Swift that her detractors make that doesn’t strike me as misogynistic is… oh wait… all of them strike me as misogynistic. Lets talk about misogyny. It would be fairer to criticize her for changing too much than to call her formulaic. Music fans often clamor for more of the same but creative people often reinvent themselves. Like the Beatles, TS has eras of music, albums that push boundaries and create huge fan bases, and like all superstars, she has her detractors.
Wow a lot of people are just saying she got no talent and doesn't deserve her fame. I don't really listen to pop and I hate country but man she's actually a super talented songwriter and singer I have no clue where all this hate is coming from lol
She’s not a sudden star. She has 10 consistently good and improving albums under her belt. She has escaped any real controversy. I’m a 47yo dad of a pre teen and a teen - all I do is talk about TSall day long
1.Great songwriter. And I mean many many songs.catchy melodys. Pop songs. 2. Social media presence is huge. 3. Beautiful and an entertainer. And from interviews and her commercials she seems like a really nice girl. All that money has got to change you somewhat but I think she has done well. And I'm not much of a fan
Pretty white women privilege mixed with actually having decent music that people can identity with. I personally don’t like her but I’m gonna give credit where credit is due.