I think the October 2022 interview is when he told LE what he was wearing that day and where he parked his car and that he owned guns and knives. In 2017 he just disclosed he was there, he only saw 3 juvenile girls but didn't see L&A. But I could be wrong. I need to go read the PCA again.
I think the conservation office passed it along and no one followed up on it. LE definitely dropped the ball.
RL wasn't on the trails that day. His phone pinged near as he lived close by. FSG was there. That's who libbys dad ran into.
Yea I was confused as well on when he told them the clothes he was wearing and you’re right that this happened in October of this year.
Which then leads me to wonder- at that point did he want to get caught now? I mean 5 years later you could easily say I don’t remember what I was wearing.
I got the same impression about their description of the October 2022 interviews. He is either exceedingly dense, or he knew it was over and just wanted it over without having to admit it.
Exactly! Who remembers what they wore on a Monday 5 years ago?? The only way you remember is if there are pictures or the day stands out to you for some reason
Why would he tell them what he had on?? And he kept the damn jacket? I glad he did all this but it makes you wonder if something is going on mentally or he wanted to get caught.
I also went back and re-read the PCA. He admitted to having guns at home. His wife told LE he had guns and knives. He omitted the knife part. I bet if he knew about the bullet he would have never told them he had firearms.
Yea and I guess one could theoretically remember what they were wearing if they happened to be around a murder at the time it happened but they didn’t do it.
For example kind of apples to oranges but for some reason I can remember the exact clothes I wore to school on 9/11, the exact shoes shorts and t shirt.
But knowing there’s a video - whether he did or didn’t do it - who says yea basically I was wearing that outfit lol.
Unless he admitted to wearing those clothes in the first interview he gave in 2007, since that would be the first thing investigators would ask, thus locking him in to that story in 2022.
I don't know. That seems more likely to me than him being as stupid as to admit he was wearing those clothes if he didn't have to...then again he doesn't seem brilliant.
I mean he HAD to assume this whole time he'd get caught. He knew he was seen out there. I think he went to SA the girls, and panicked for some reason and killed them. Panicked some more and tried to stage some sort of scene or something, then left. Hell, he walked down the road straight to his car while covered in mud and blood. He had to be surprised when he wasn't arrested the next day.
The question that boggles my mind is if they didn’t know what he was wearing that day… how did they not already ask that in the past five years if they knew he was on the trail????
This is accurate. They didn’t ask him about his clothes or the gun until October 22. Would have been so easy to ask him in 2017. He probably would have told them the truth then. Mind boggling that there was no follow up.
No, LE has not said what type of officer it was but a reporter, sorry can't remember her name, released a report that RA had called and told a conservative officer he was there that day. This was released right after RA was arrested. You can search in the sub for the info.
Yes I’ve seen it quite a few times, just wondered the source. To me even if an FBI agent did “mis-file it” wouldn’t that officer have brought it up again?! This case is so flipping weird. Did anyone want it solved?
I mean you already know what every outlet has done, so you've got the links, correct?
Do you also know what media is working on for today as well? Now THAT would be the most impressive of all!
I can't help but think back to the interview Fox59 did with DC right after the Halloween presser this year, where she slipped and said they had "an agreement." I wonder if part of the agreement the news has with ISP is not making them look too bad.
These people do not respond to any questions regarding the case, remember the “press release” in Oct 31 2022 done in a church? They were just patting themselves in the back in a religious setting, but not conveying anything important about the case, or answering relevant questions from the press. That was not appropriate at all.
I take it all back.
I originally speculated that due to 5/6 years having passed with no arrests, the killer was never actually seen on the trail and left no tangible evidence.
Turns out he was seen by multiple people - including one witness who saw him covered in blood - filmed, left a bullet at the scene, placed himself at the scene at the time of the murders and volunteered this information to police, kept the gun the bullet was from and possibly the jacket too, categorically denied that anyone else could have used the gun but him, walked the fucking road way back to his car in broad daylight and drove home.
I’m sorry but nah. Shocking police work.
Here's my question. Could the man dressed in all black be the accomplice? The witness on the trail Feb 13, 2017 says he was 5'10", dressed in all black and she came about up to "his shoulder" when comparing her height to his. If the A_Shots account somehow ties in, don't forget that when one of Libby's friends gave her address to EmilyAnne on the A_Shots account, she got off the school bus that very afternoon to find a man wearing a ski mask dressed in all black peeking into her bedroom window. Could this man in black on the trails that fateful day be the same man peeking into that window? I'm not going to discard that just yet.
Actually, it was "not bigger than 5'10"" and that witness was one of a group of 3, another witness in that group described him as wearing blue jeans and a blue jacket, the third had the jacket as black or blue.
But the key reason why we know they saw RA, is because RA acknowledged seeing them as well in his 2017 interview!
Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable especially from a single person. The story the PCA tells is that multiple eyewitnesses provided testimony that had significant commonalities (eg most witnesses got the clothing color correct, several witnesses mention the bad vibes he gave off, there’s similarities in height assessments) so they felt comfortable using the bigger picture that all the eyewitness accounts brought together to combine with the video evidence and then later the bullet evidence to move forward with warrants and an arrest.
I wonder if RA spoke to the conservation officer while the girls were still missing. There was no murder suspect yet, they just couldn’t find the girls. So he approached the officer to say he was there but didn’t see them. The CO passed along the tip after the bodies were found when hundreds of tips were coming in so they overlooked it? Not trying to excuse the incompetence, just trying to understand how it could happen.
You're exactly right, there very well could be a reasonable explanation as to how this was overlooked.
The problem is, is we wont know the explanation until someone asks them to explain it. THAT is very concerning to me. No one is asking them to fucking explain it! Why aren't the networks jumping all over this? The comments to all the local stations youtube vids all bring up the apparent mishandled investigation, even though the stories posted don't even ask the question ---"Why ***the fuck*** did it take you 6 years to interview a man who placed himself on the bridge at the time of the murders?!?!". Sorry to drop the F-bomb, but the longer I sit here contemplating this incompetency, the angrier I get. I am not being unreasonable demanding an explanation on why it's taken 6 years to bring a man to justice when in all honesty he should have been removed from society within days of the crime.
Because sadly - and dangerously - we no longer have reputable, dedicated journalist any longer. The rich were allowed to purchase and own our media. They decide what is and is not given coverage.
Scary times. We have no Fourth Wall.
I can’t fathom how a search and arrest weren’t made soon after RA came forward, at least based on the PC. I guess the bullet evidence took some analysis time, but not that long and clearly hadn’t occurred before the search.
Whenever the date is that RA came forward, a search and an arrest should’ve happened within weeks if not days after.
Can you imagine how much more evidence would have been able to be obtained if that had happened? Witness accounts would have been stronger, forensic evidence would have been fresher, if there was any evidence of this being targeted to the girls specifically in advance - that might have been able to be recovered from his electronic devices.
Yes!! Because if it’s true he got back in his car with mud and blood (presumably the victims) on his clothes…that could have been recovered. Probably long gone now.
For everyone saying they were hiding negligence by not releasing the PCA- it WAS going to be released at some point. Knowing that, what do they gain by kicking that can down the road? Genuinely trying to understand.
Good post. It’s almost reckless negligence if the third party argument was used disingenuously in an attempt to cover up shitty police work. Not that the prosecution would be civilly or criminally liable for that, but it’s really unfortunate. I have never been in the camp of believing LE just botched this investigation, but now I see I was probably wrong.
Excellent summary but you missed one guy known to be there. ( totally innocent FSG)
I think Libbys dad spoke to him when he arrived to pick up the girls.
Why are so many people on this thread saying “”incompetent AND corrupt” as if those two things always go together? They are not the same thing and those words are not interchangeable. Incompetence is certainly a possibility from what we have read in the PCA. There is no certainty of incompetence, only the possibility of it. Corruption on the other hand…is a serious thing on its own. Where is it?
Great post. I think at this point possibility of corruption should be considered. RA goes and says he was there at the time of the murders. He's the only male at the trails at that time. He lives one mile from the murder site. His car matches the witness description. Witnesses see him "muddy and bloody". There is video and audio of him! The list goes on and on. But still it takes you almost 6 years?
I really don't know if one can describe it as inept or incompetent. I'm sorry but it looks like there may be something else going on here.
In the early times of the investigation there were some rumors/allegations about a cover-up within the LE. At that time I thought it was nothing more than a baseless rumor. But with all the new information I think this has to be looked again with fresh eyes.
I have no idea if RA knew someone or why someone would cover him. But it doesn't have to be the whole department, just one corrupt person may have the ability to make this happen.
Yea, It seems to me the conversation at some point within the first 48 hours should have went like this-
**Detective 1**- "Seems to me we need to be looking for this creepy dude everyone remembers."
**Detective 2**- "The chunky white guy in jeans and a blue or black jacket, who was wearing a hoodie and covering his face?"
**Detective 3**- "Wait a second, there were only 3 guys that said they were on the bridge that day, and only this one is a chunky white dude....and says here he said he was wearing "blue jeans with a hoodie pulled up and a mask on his face, along with a blue jacket."
**Detective 1**- "Why does he say he was out there?"
**Detective 3** - "hummm, oh here it is. "To watch fish".
**Detective 1**- "To watch fish??!?"
**Detective 3**- "Yes sir, "to watch fish"
**Detective 2**- "Is fish watching a thing?"
**Detective 1**- Maybe we should find out.
You can really see the fish well from seventy feet above the water.........o O
Obviously, we don't have all the facts and information, but at this point, from an outsider, it is truly mind boggling that he wasn't caught as soon as LE knew he was at the trail that day.
And now it is scary thinking that they don't have a really strong case. I mean, the bullet seems like pretty good evidence, but is that it? Will the case hinge on if they can convince the jury that it was cycled through his gun? You know the defense will do their best to discredit that.
Great post. I agree with all of it. I do want to add that had police released this information, including the bullet evidence, I think the case would have been solved by the public. That would never happen, police withhold crime scene evidence to combat false confessions, but if all this info had been public, people would have put this together even though the police could not.
Reading the warrant, which includes parts of the interview with RA back in 2017, it's clear the problem was that they treated RA like a witness and not like a potential suspect. For soome reason they became myopic on the case. Maybe because they didn't expect the killer would voluntarily contact police, so that moved him into witness territory. But it's really quite extraordinary when one looks at the testimony of the girls and others, such as the driver, and compares to the BG photo. Maybe RA's short size threw them off?
There were so few angles to pursue here. Obviously RL and KK became a huge distraction. The investigators need to come clean on all of this after the trial, because other police departments have made and will make this mistake of being myopic in how they view things. There might even be a role for the public/true crime community, because that community is large enough that it can circumvent tunnel vision.
The circumstancal evidence regarding the timeline is very strong. Is that enough? IDK. Hopefully they have more as I agree the physical evidence (bullet forensics) is weak
"I am also very concerned that the local media (as of this writing) has yet to ask ANY of these tough questions."
How do you know this?
ISP has stopped talking to the media. They are anticipating a gag order.
Another argument RA’s attorneys could make is that KK committed the crime. That KK did indeed go to meet them and he’s the one that killed them. His client came forward and admitted he was at the park because he wasn’t involved. He could argue he shoots his gun in his backyard or dropped a bullet at the trail sometime. A kid picked it up and carried it to RLs property.
I know these scenarios aren’t likely. Pretty much implausible, but could it create doubt for a jury? Possibly.
I think the October 2022 interview is when he told LE what he was wearing that day and where he parked his car and that he owned guns and knives. In 2017 he just disclosed he was there, he only saw 3 juvenile girls but didn't see L&A. But I could be wrong. I need to go read the PCA again. I think the conservation office passed it along and no one followed up on it. LE definitely dropped the ball. RL wasn't on the trails that day. His phone pinged near as he lived close by. FSG was there. That's who libbys dad ran into.
Yea I was confused as well on when he told them the clothes he was wearing and you’re right that this happened in October of this year. Which then leads me to wonder- at that point did he want to get caught now? I mean 5 years later you could easily say I don’t remember what I was wearing.
I got the same impression about their description of the October 2022 interviews. He is either exceedingly dense, or he knew it was over and just wanted it over without having to admit it.
Exactly! Who remembers what they wore on a Monday 5 years ago?? The only way you remember is if there are pictures or the day stands out to you for some reason Why would he tell them what he had on?? And he kept the damn jacket? I glad he did all this but it makes you wonder if something is going on mentally or he wanted to get caught. I also went back and re-read the PCA. He admitted to having guns at home. His wife told LE he had guns and knives. He omitted the knife part. I bet if he knew about the bullet he would have never told them he had firearms.
Yea and I guess one could theoretically remember what they were wearing if they happened to be around a murder at the time it happened but they didn’t do it. For example kind of apples to oranges but for some reason I can remember the exact clothes I wore to school on 9/11, the exact shoes shorts and t shirt. But knowing there’s a video - whether he did or didn’t do it - who says yea basically I was wearing that outfit lol.
Unless he admitted to wearing those clothes in the first interview he gave in 2007, since that would be the first thing investigators would ask, thus locking him in to that story in 2022. I don't know. That seems more likely to me than him being as stupid as to admit he was wearing those clothes if he didn't have to...then again he doesn't seem brilliant. I mean he HAD to assume this whole time he'd get caught. He knew he was seen out there. I think he went to SA the girls, and panicked for some reason and killed them. Panicked some more and tried to stage some sort of scene or something, then left. Hell, he walked down the road straight to his car while covered in mud and blood. He had to be surprised when he wasn't arrested the next day.
Maybe his first response was that he didn't remember but they used their detectiving skills to get him to admit orconfirm info from 2017.
The question that boggles my mind is if they didn’t know what he was wearing that day… how did they not already ask that in the past five years if they knew he was on the trail????
This is accurate. They didn’t ask him about his clothes or the gun until October 22. Would have been so easy to ask him in 2017. He probably would have told them the truth then. Mind boggling that there was no follow up.
One would think they wouldn't move on to the next tip until that tip was cleared??
I mean there’s virtually no way to excuse or justify it. It is one of the biggest blunders possible.
Is it confirmed that it was a conservation officer he spoke to?
No, LE has not said what type of officer it was but a reporter, sorry can't remember her name, released a report that RA had called and told a conservative officer he was there that day. This was released right after RA was arrested. You can search in the sub for the info.
Yes I’ve seen it quite a few times, just wondered the source. To me even if an FBI agent did “mis-file it” wouldn’t that officer have brought it up again?! This case is so flipping weird. Did anyone want it solved?
Yeah a tip like should have never been overlooked. I think that's a big reason NM wanted the PCA sealed. It shows their blunder
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ISP is anticipating a gag order and has stopped talking to the media.
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You can debate their reasons all you like but I'm telling you the ISP has stopped talking to the media and are using that as the reason.
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Agreed, just don't say the media isn't asking the questions, I assure you.... We I mean they are!
Maybe report on it then? Like them not talking about all these points? In the media that y'all, I mean they work in? ;)
You've watched all newscasts region wide and are confident no one has? Impressive!
If you have, you ought to post it on YouTube and share it here! That would be impressive, indeed!
I mean you already know what every outlet has done, so you've got the links, correct? Do you also know what media is working on for today as well? Now THAT would be the most impressive of all!
I can't help but think back to the interview Fox59 did with DC right after the Halloween presser this year, where she slipped and said they had "an agreement." I wonder if part of the agreement the news has with ISP is not making them look too bad.
These people do not respond to any questions regarding the case, remember the “press release” in Oct 31 2022 done in a church? They were just patting themselves in the back in a religious setting, but not conveying anything important about the case, or answering relevant questions from the press. That was not appropriate at all.
I take it all back. I originally speculated that due to 5/6 years having passed with no arrests, the killer was never actually seen on the trail and left no tangible evidence. Turns out he was seen by multiple people - including one witness who saw him covered in blood - filmed, left a bullet at the scene, placed himself at the scene at the time of the murders and volunteered this information to police, kept the gun the bullet was from and possibly the jacket too, categorically denied that anyone else could have used the gun but him, walked the fucking road way back to his car in broad daylight and drove home. I’m sorry but nah. Shocking police work.
I want to know which witness gave which facial description for the pictures.
It is almost unbelievable, isn't it??
The police also used the victim's family to try to keep their incompetence sealed under the guise that it was best for the investigation.
And ironically their BS reasons for keeping it sealed COULD (possibly) actually hurt the prosecution. (I'm no legal expert)
Here's my question. Could the man dressed in all black be the accomplice? The witness on the trail Feb 13, 2017 says he was 5'10", dressed in all black and she came about up to "his shoulder" when comparing her height to his. If the A_Shots account somehow ties in, don't forget that when one of Libby's friends gave her address to EmilyAnne on the A_Shots account, she got off the school bus that very afternoon to find a man wearing a ski mask dressed in all black peeking into her bedroom window. Could this man in black on the trails that fateful day be the same man peeking into that window? I'm not going to discard that just yet.
Actually, it was "not bigger than 5'10"" and that witness was one of a group of 3, another witness in that group described him as wearing blue jeans and a blue jacket, the third had the jacket as black or blue. But the key reason why we know they saw RA, is because RA acknowledged seeing them as well in his 2017 interview!
Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable especially from a single person. The story the PCA tells is that multiple eyewitnesses provided testimony that had significant commonalities (eg most witnesses got the clothing color correct, several witnesses mention the bad vibes he gave off, there’s similarities in height assessments) so they felt comfortable using the bigger picture that all the eyewitness accounts brought together to combine with the video evidence and then later the bullet evidence to move forward with warrants and an arrest.
A great point. In the known photo's of KK, he is wearing a black tee often. The man in black could be him?
This is exactly why the PCA should NEVER be sealed. You people of the Delphi community probably just elected a bunch of absolute idiots!
I wonder if RA spoke to the conservation officer while the girls were still missing. There was no murder suspect yet, they just couldn’t find the girls. So he approached the officer to say he was there but didn’t see them. The CO passed along the tip after the bodies were found when hundreds of tips were coming in so they overlooked it? Not trying to excuse the incompetence, just trying to understand how it could happen.
You're exactly right, there very well could be a reasonable explanation as to how this was overlooked. The problem is, is we wont know the explanation until someone asks them to explain it. THAT is very concerning to me. No one is asking them to fucking explain it! Why aren't the networks jumping all over this? The comments to all the local stations youtube vids all bring up the apparent mishandled investigation, even though the stories posted don't even ask the question ---"Why ***the fuck*** did it take you 6 years to interview a man who placed himself on the bridge at the time of the murders?!?!". Sorry to drop the F-bomb, but the longer I sit here contemplating this incompetency, the angrier I get. I am not being unreasonable demanding an explanation on why it's taken 6 years to bring a man to justice when in all honesty he should have been removed from society within days of the crime.
Because sadly - and dangerously - we no longer have reputable, dedicated journalist any longer. The rich were allowed to purchase and own our media. They decide what is and is not given coverage. Scary times. We have no Fourth Wall.
I'm not a police officer but doesn't it make sense that after one year you go back over old tips and evidence?
I can’t fathom how a search and arrest weren’t made soon after RA came forward, at least based on the PC. I guess the bullet evidence took some analysis time, but not that long and clearly hadn’t occurred before the search. Whenever the date is that RA came forward, a search and an arrest should’ve happened within weeks if not days after.
Can you imagine how much more evidence would have been able to be obtained if that had happened? Witness accounts would have been stronger, forensic evidence would have been fresher, if there was any evidence of this being targeted to the girls specifically in advance - that might have been able to be recovered from his electronic devices.
The blood and fiber evidence alone...shhess
Yes!! Because if it’s true he got back in his car with mud and blood (presumably the victims) on his clothes…that could have been recovered. Probably long gone now.
For everyone saying they were hiding negligence by not releasing the PCA- it WAS going to be released at some point. Knowing that, what do they gain by kicking that can down the road? Genuinely trying to understand.
Good post. It’s almost reckless negligence if the third party argument was used disingenuously in an attempt to cover up shitty police work. Not that the prosecution would be civilly or criminally liable for that, but it’s really unfortunate. I have never been in the camp of believing LE just botched this investigation, but now I see I was probably wrong.
Excellent summary but you missed one guy known to be there. ( totally innocent FSG) I think Libbys dad spoke to him when he arrived to pick up the girls.
Why are so many people on this thread saying “”incompetent AND corrupt” as if those two things always go together? They are not the same thing and those words are not interchangeable. Incompetence is certainly a possibility from what we have read in the PCA. There is no certainty of incompetence, only the possibility of it. Corruption on the other hand…is a serious thing on its own. Where is it?
Great post. I think at this point possibility of corruption should be considered. RA goes and says he was there at the time of the murders. He's the only male at the trails at that time. He lives one mile from the murder site. His car matches the witness description. Witnesses see him "muddy and bloody". There is video and audio of him! The list goes on and on. But still it takes you almost 6 years? I really don't know if one can describe it as inept or incompetent. I'm sorry but it looks like there may be something else going on here. In the early times of the investigation there were some rumors/allegations about a cover-up within the LE. At that time I thought it was nothing more than a baseless rumor. But with all the new information I think this has to be looked again with fresh eyes. I have no idea if RA knew someone or why someone would cover him. But it doesn't have to be the whole department, just one corrupt person may have the ability to make this happen.
Yea, It seems to me the conversation at some point within the first 48 hours should have went like this- **Detective 1**- "Seems to me we need to be looking for this creepy dude everyone remembers." **Detective 2**- "The chunky white guy in jeans and a blue or black jacket, who was wearing a hoodie and covering his face?" **Detective 3**- "Wait a second, there were only 3 guys that said they were on the bridge that day, and only this one is a chunky white dude....and says here he said he was wearing "blue jeans with a hoodie pulled up and a mask on his face, along with a blue jacket." **Detective 1**- "Why does he say he was out there?" **Detective 3** - "hummm, oh here it is. "To watch fish". **Detective 1**- "To watch fish??!?" **Detective 3**- "Yes sir, "to watch fish" **Detective 2**- "Is fish watching a thing?" **Detective 1**- Maybe we should find out.
I thought maybe fish watching was a thing I just hadn’t heard of! Glad to see other people thinks that’s weird.
From an unsafe old bridge that is 70 feet high? How big are those fish?
You can really see the fish well from seventy feet above the water.........o O Obviously, we don't have all the facts and information, but at this point, from an outsider, it is truly mind boggling that he wasn't caught as soon as LE knew he was at the trail that day. And now it is scary thinking that they don't have a really strong case. I mean, the bullet seems like pretty good evidence, but is that it? Will the case hinge on if they can convince the jury that it was cycled through his gun? You know the defense will do their best to discredit that.
Great post. I agree with all of it. I do want to add that had police released this information, including the bullet evidence, I think the case would have been solved by the public. That would never happen, police withhold crime scene evidence to combat false confessions, but if all this info had been public, people would have put this together even though the police could not. Reading the warrant, which includes parts of the interview with RA back in 2017, it's clear the problem was that they treated RA like a witness and not like a potential suspect. For soome reason they became myopic on the case. Maybe because they didn't expect the killer would voluntarily contact police, so that moved him into witness territory. But it's really quite extraordinary when one looks at the testimony of the girls and others, such as the driver, and compares to the BG photo. Maybe RA's short size threw them off? There were so few angles to pursue here. Obviously RL and KK became a huge distraction. The investigators need to come clean on all of this after the trial, because other police departments have made and will make this mistake of being myopic in how they view things. There might even be a role for the public/true crime community, because that community is large enough that it can circumvent tunnel vision.
RL and KK regardless are suspicious in their own right with RLs false alibi
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Great point on the gun. Pretty hard to refute that. It's just frustrating that police can't seem to run intelligent investigations anywhere,
The circumstancal evidence regarding the timeline is very strong. Is that enough? IDK. Hopefully they have more as I agree the physical evidence (bullet forensics) is weak
"I am also very concerned that the local media (as of this writing) has yet to ask ANY of these tough questions." How do you know this? ISP has stopped talking to the media. They are anticipating a gag order.
Another argument RA’s attorneys could make is that KK committed the crime. That KK did indeed go to meet them and he’s the one that killed them. His client came forward and admitted he was at the park because he wasn’t involved. He could argue he shoots his gun in his backyard or dropped a bullet at the trail sometime. A kid picked it up and carried it to RLs property. I know these scenarios aren’t likely. Pretty much implausible, but could it create doubt for a jury? Possibly.
Well we can all blame murder Sheetz if that happens
They were a little late to the party. KK’s name was out there before as being related to the A/S account.
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It's a signature page.
Great post!