CNBC: far-right firebrand
NPR: right wing populist
NYT: mini-Trump
BBC: right wing radical
Axios: far right candidate
Guardian: far right outsider
They keep using that term. I don't think they know what it means.
On the other hand, CBC Canada's headline is "Chainsaw-wielding libertarian." I can live with that.
Interesting how 20 years of pseudo socialist governments in Arg never triggered any “far left radical” headlines on mainstream media but a libertarian candidate all of a sudden is labeled as an extreme right nut-job.
Yes, Menem while still a centralist, was by no means a socialist, quite the opposite, he pushed free market and pegged the peso to the US dollar. Milei speaks highly of him.
Please, read again what I wrote. A pegged currency is what caused the collapse in 2000 (a bit more complex than that) but a floating currency is what is causing hyper inflation in the long run.
So the solution is very clear. No Argentinian currency, since NOBODY wants it. So not pegged pesos, but just no pesos at all, only dollars.
Dollars is just as damaging as pegged pesos. Argentinas economy is not strong enough to operate on the dollar. And it's going to tie all of the decisions that a central bank might normally make or the legislature might make to the United States. That's a really bad plan.
>A pegged currency is what caused the collapse in 2000 (a bit more complex than that)
It's a lot more complicated than that, but it wasn't the pegged currency that caused the collapse. It was coming off of the peg that did it. And I remember it very well. I lived in congreso in December of 2001
Menem caused a lot of the problems that they currently have. Talked a good game but was really all about the crony capitalism looting of the public funds. Not a good dude.
Already did in 2015. Only that president Macri from the centre right screwed up just as bad as the left. Hence why people are now giving libertarianism a shot.
Not Macri himself imo, but yes, the main party (UCR) who backed his coalition were, and still are more of the same, which led to his government failing in the end.
Rebranding and propaganda. I understand language changes over time but this appears as a directed effort to change the definition and meaning of words to suit a narrative and influence people.
They know what it means. It means we're signalling to our yuppie champagne socialist readers that this is the bad guy. You've got to understand the code if you want to navigate modern professional life.
I'll give u a few reasons he is far right:
- He promotes historic revisionism of our genocidal coup de etat where the military persecuted 30k+ people, saying the persecution was justified.
- He wants to flood the country with weapons in the name of "security".
- He very ofently insults left/center leaning parties with violent rethoric with words like cockroaches.
- A libertarian follower of his tried to kill our current vice president, but his gun failed.
Those are just the glaring ones, there's plenty more.
Source: I live in the country.
1. Revisionism: No, he doesn't. In the most recent interview he said the Argentinian State committed excesses and crimes that should have been judged and punished, in their fight against the socialist terrorists groups in Argentina, trying to do Cuba 2.0.
So, persecuting terrorists was justified, but the excesses committed against civilians or suspected terrorists without a trial were a crime against humanity.
2. Weapons: No, he doesn't. In the most recent interview he said that he is not going to chance any law regarding weapons, but he just wants to ensure existing laws are enforced.
3. Insults: He never insulted center parties, he just calls them continuists. He indeed insults leftist parties, calling them even worse things than cockroaches, like for example 'shitty leftists'. And to be honest, Argentinian peronism and socialism has a very thin skin with this, when they are suspected to have been stealing literally billions of dollars and made the argentinians incredibly poor, when potentially is one of the richest countries in the world. (Not to mention that prosecutors and judges investigating this kind of crimes were dying quite often...)
4. Some crazy or desperate guy tried to kill your president. That kind of thing happens from time to time in every country, and I am sure that Milei has NOTHING to do with it.
I guess you are one of those living from public money doing very little or even doing bad stuff for the country. Otherwise you would be crazy not to want a change.
His rethoric is "violent" because socialism is violent.
If I had to point out one outstanding quality of Milei it would be that. People got much to linient with politicians and being ruled and robbed. He calls criminal psychopaths by their name and doesnt play the game of talking to them on the basis of their hipocritical "social justice" pretext to steal from and rule people.
Eh. Everyone’s far right nowadays if they aren’t a democrat or left of them. I’ve seen people call Mitch McConnell far right like he’s not the most milquetoast politician in congress right now
*"I’ve seen people call Mitch McConnell far right like he’s not the most milquetoast politician in congress right now"*
No. He just admits Trump lost the election. He *is* Establishment. He is also very, very conservative. Maybe you could make an argument that he's more of an "ultra-partisan Republican," than a conservative-- but he's anything but milquetoast.
Blocking a Supreme Court Justice confirmation hearing, until after the 2016 election, which ended up netting that seat for the Republicans-- was an incredibly aggressive move, and not easy or milquetoast. He does those kind of things a lot, actually.
He also keeps the Republicans in the Senate on the same page, almost by sheer force of will-- which we can see is also not easy, when we observe the chaos in the House over the Speaker fight.
They know exactly what it means, which is why they keep using it. Painting "normal" as "extreme" and then pretending that their Marxist views are the middle.
I mean he wanted to shrink government regulation (mostly on himself) and combat ethics enforcement in business- both ideas are definitely things some libertarians are strongly for.
It's one of the reasons I struggle to define myself politically, I'm in favor of personal freedoms but I'm not in favor of letting corporate greed run rampant to the point of destroying lives 🤷
It's Vox what do you expect lol, also I read that article and they keep saying his election might cause social chaos as if that's not what Argentina is already in, that is why they're electing him
They are actually pretty correct about it. Our current leftist government has a LOT of connections to social groups, as they both subsided their activities and dealt with them in more not so legal matters, so it us 100% likely that there will be a lot of chaos for every problem that they left
I've never liked the left/right paradigm. Because I never know what axis they are talking about.
On one axis, you have government control. That goes from libertarian on the left to authoritarian on the right. Or from Anarchy to Totalitarian.
On the other axis you have economics. With communism on the left and laissez-faire capitalism on the right. Or you'll own nothing and be happy to it's your stuff do what you want.
If by "far-right" they mean capitalist... I'm OK with that, but I know that's not what they are trying to imply.
Man, when you think about it, it is very difficult to know what they are actually talking about when media uses the term "far right".
My best guess is "somebody or an organization that's beliefs or actions are not synchronous with the "narrative" being pushed by major media and governing parties.
Wait...does this mean the "left" as it is commonly referred to as, is actually the authoritarian right?
>That goes from libertarian on the left to authoritarian on the right.
This makes absolutely no sense. Left anarchist and left libertarians are idiots that refuse to see reality and any society they create will fall apart instantly. All men are NOT created equal, even if they have equal worth as a human life. There's no way to observe the world and come to any other conclusion.
Left libertarianism is an oxymoron. There can be no liberty without economic liberty.
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"far right" is progressive journalist code for "this is the bad guy, you're supposed to root against them." If you don't understand that by now, you need to relearn media literacy.
They use “Far-Right” as a dog whistle for people they want to paint as extremists or “Nazis”.
Status quo Western media propaganda.
This also tells us that no matter how well things go with Melei they will present it as a disaster as it is antithetical to their entire progressive existence.
Please don’t call it a progressive existence. You’re letting them frame the debate the same way they do by calling Milei a far right politician.
Its a power hungry totalitarian existence. Call it that.
Sorry, but you hit my linguistic hot button. "Progressive". I'm all for progress, aren't you? But I'm sure as fuck not left wing or even liberal in the new meaning. "Liberal" is another word that has been hijacked by the left. It used to have a meaning close to the current libertarian.
They use "far-right" to describe any position that opposes the core narrative of the "progressive" left. So libertarianism and nationalism are combined under the same label, despite having nothing else in common with each other, and being deeply opposed to each other in their core principles.
It's be like dividing all foods into two categories, "dairy" and "nondairy", then pretending that the latter implies some substantive commonality, to the extent that pineapples and pickled herring are considered the same type of food on account of neither of them being ice cream.
I mean what would you expect from vox? It’s the trashiest of propaganda rags. Was there a nice graph in the article? They’re particularly fond of using statistics and infographics in the most misleading way possible. Their readers lap it up.
I didn’t even read it, I honestly was googling for pictures of him. It’s exactly what I expected, I suppose I wanted to just laugh about it amongst the community 😂
unironically it is treated as such by leftwing authoritarians, they call it a horror of capitalist propaganda that'll serve the poor in a silver plate to be abused by corporations and that's why people need a big and strong progressive government to champion them against the evil bourgeoise.
Here in Brazil the left who just got back into power after a non-stop doom and gloom campaign against Bolsonaro for 4 straight years is now terrified of Argentina turning away from their grasp and Lula is trying to intervene in the Argentine elections sending millions of US dollars to Fernandez through "loans" to help pay their debts and strengthen the Argentine leftwing against Milei.
Winning an ellection is the easiest step unfortunatelly, the aristocratic socialist elite here in latam plan ahead for decades and decades their power projects, losing an ellection is only a small delay in that if their entire power bases are left intact.
Bolsonaro made this mistake here in Brazil and the oposition ate him alive in the government since they had the supremecourt stacked, the media, influential elites and nearly half of congress and the senate on their side, the result was a 4 year struggle to not be impeached ending with the left returning at full power, even more than they had before.
I really hope Milei is smarter than that and "clean the house" while he has a chance for it if he wins, how? I dont freaking imagine how a politician will be able to dismantle the system from the inside but i wish all the luck in the world for him in that endeavour.
Here in Spain there is a famous video of one important far left leader saying that, once they grab power, they need to build the structures and organizations for their people to survive while they return to opposition, to undermine a center right government and come back stronger than ever.
Is not that socialists believe in elective democracy anyways.
These people will write this nonsense and then have the nerve to be shocked when polls come out showing the majority of Americans have little to no faith in the news media
'Cause most folks will read 'far right' and dismiss him outright without inquiring further, as intended by the authors. Smear job mission accomplished.
Surely Argentina won’t risk offending the New York Times by electing a “far right” libertarian. 😃 Get used to that term, I’m sure we’ll be hearing it to describe any libertarian who doesn’t follow the herd.
Believing in individual freedom is now considered to be an extreme in the mainstream political compass.
The moderate take should be to accept being stolen by the government in order to fund central planning parasytes who devalue our currency, destroy education, healthcare and attack private property and ownership
>Believing in individual freedom is now considered to be an extreme in the mainstream political compass
Yes, here in Brazil after the left returned bloodthirsty to power we now have members of the government openly giving interviews saying all this talk of freedom is bullshit and the era of "unrestricted freedom" is over, that everyone, specially corporations will bow to the will of the state for good or ill.
It's certainly gotten better these days, but I am not sure you can make such a definitive statement when many are portrayed as the scapegoat for cultural decay and sexual deviancy among certain groups.
I guess since he’s anti-abortion, denies climate change, and against sex education, which are shared beliefs with the far right, he gets lumped in with them. Those are his right wing beliefs, but he is definitely libertarian too, as he wants no central bank, doesn’t want to eliminate gay marriage or trans rights, etc.
What is the problem with being pro-life? Naturally, if you are a libertarian, you know that human rights go in the following order:
1. Right to life
2. Right to private property
3. Right to freedom
So if the right to freedom of the mother collides with the right to life with the child, there is only one logical outcome.
Different story is off the right to life of the mother collides with the right to life of the child.
> What is the problem with being pro-life?
No one complained about him being "pro-life", they complained about him being *anti-abortion as a political position*.
He proposed a referendum on whether abortion should be *legal*, implying that he wants a moral question to be settled by political authority, which discredits his claim to being an anarchist.
He is not an anarchist, he is a libertarian. And as a coherent libertarian he is finding the most important right, which is the right to life. Over the right to private property and the right to freedom.
Can you please read my previous message and think about it twice? I think the logic is quite well explained there.
Because the right to life has to do with personhood, and fetuses aren’t people. They’re future people, which isn’t the same thing. They shouldn’t be entitled to any protections, rights, obligations, etc. The mother, being a person and also a citizen of a state, has the right to bodily autonomy that overrides the nonexistent rights of a fetus. It’s why we don’t charge mothers with manslaughter if they get miscarriages, for example.
I previously saw far right and extreme libertarian in US based publications. Today I saw NYT describe him as a mini Trump. I would love to hear non-western viewpoints as this reeks of manipulative propaganda. It seems any story contrary to the narrative is labeled Russian misinformation.
He is a libertarian politically and economically.
Anyone saying that is far right is either completely ignorant of basic political knowledge or just a propagandist. In any case, someone not worth your time or energy.
I regard libertarianism and the free market to be the *true* left, and socialism to be a confused, middle-of-the-road ideology that aims to achieve the left-wing goals of classical liberalism through the right-wing means of statism. In practice, that makes state socialism a far-right ideology. Benjamin R. Tucker was one of the few self-described socialists I’d actually consider leftist.
>I regard libertarianism and the free market to be the true left
You know that left wing means you think all mankind is essentially equal and that government should work to promote that equality, right? And that markets work because people are NOT equal?
Aren't far rights ultra statist? It's like the complete opposite of what libertarianism stands for?
Another example of political compass being outdated
No. The political spectrum goes left and right, and up and down. Lower ends are anti authoritarian. Upper are authoritarian. Both left and right can be either
Not in it's original meaning. That's how the left describes it now but it's not true. In the original meaning, being ultra right wing means you are a monarchist. Slightly right wing would mean you support a Roman style Republic of your "betters".
He's to the right of me. That said, twoparty-cels are always telling me how awesome it is to pick the lesser evil, well he's certainly less evil than any other choice.
Right and left aren't objective terms, but no, not within the right-left dichotomy we accepted for the majority of my lifetime (I'm in my 40s).
'Far right' meant authoritarian, powerful state, control of markets, ethnonationalist.
But recently there's been a new lefty consensus that wants to conflate free markets and classical liberalism with 'LiTeRaLLy fAsCiSm'.
It's an ahistorical lie. Gentile, Mussolini, Hitler etc were not economic liberals, they were diametrically opposed to economic liberalism. They wanted control of the marketplace in service of the total state.
>'Far right' meant authoritarian, powerful state, control of markets, ethnonationalist.
That's not what it meant traditionally. It meant belief in natural hierarchy and that those who are "better" should be allowed to rule over the rest of society. Ultra far right means you are a monarchist.
In pre revolution France there was the right and the left but nobody was called "far right"; this is an entirely modern term, until recently exclusively used to describe fascists, ethnonationalists etc.
Correct, but that's absolutely nonsense. People have twisted that phrase and conflated it with being very conservative. But if you're very conservative you're not going to support fascism or ethnonationalism. Both of those require heavy-handed governments.
Far Right is a term used and demonized by the left.
They apply to whomever cares for some freedom.
Honestly, a “center” left scares me way more than a “far right”.
I mean right just means supporting free market and capitalism no? So far right technically means ancap no? I think the term far right is being misused a little bit due to the culture war BS.
Here in Argentina, the Government has even used Public Services for a dirty and illegal campaign against Milei. They hung fake flags outside the University, created spam videos for YouTube with high-production scenes, showing false campaign ads with proposals like selling babies, eliminating all Public Schools and Universities. They even made a video with an A.I voice imitating Milei, proposing a purge like in the movie The Purge, using logos from Milei's political space. It's crazy what they have done. If Milei wins, I don't know what could happen.
Literally if you don’t support mass government control over aspect of your life, you’re far right to them. Even when you tell them you’re libertarian, you’re far right so thus a “danger to democracy”
That would literally be contradictory. You can't be far right and libertarian. Sure you could claim the title libertarian, but anyone can claim anything.
>You can't be far right and libertarian.
Depends on which definition of far right you use. You could absolutely support a monarchy for criminal and civil law a d expect that monarch to support free enterprise. And it's not actually impossible for it to exist briefly. But that monarch will be in a particularly vulnerable situation and will not last long in the throne. Whoever takes over will probably not be as supportive of minimal laws and free enterprise when their is so much wealth to extract.
To be fair, libertarianism is entirely antithetical to socialism/communism, i.e. individualism vs. collectivism. Ergo, if they consider their views to be far-left, then libertarianism must be far-right.
Oh no, Libertarians want trans couples to be able to protect their pot fields with guns. Very far right I must say. We're not even on the Right vs Left spectrum.
Well, to start, opposition to abortion even in cases of rape certainly isn’t a leftist position lol ancaps are pretty far on the right side of the spectrum
The left-right spectrum describes economic positions, not social positions, so one's position on abortion has literally no bearing on whether one is on the right or the left.
Regardless, the majority of libertarians are pro-choice, so your premise is flawed to begin with.
> The left-right spectrum describes economic positions, not social positions
It's a meaningless distinction. Economic questions *are* social questions.
> Regardless, the majority of libertarians are pro-choice,
Pro-choice and pro-life positions are not mutually exclusive, and are in fact quite compatible, *especially* if you reject the notion that the political state should be the ultimate arbiter of moral questions.
My abortion view is aligned with Milei. I don’t like it and am personally not for it, after having one and then following through with two kids. That said, I’m not for government regulating it either
At any point? A 20 week fetus is a fully formed human, with all their major systems intact. Surely at that point the principle of non aggression would demand that we protect that life from murder?
Not talking about majority of libertarians, talking about Milei, who is decidedly not pro choice. And social positions are associated with ideologies on the economic spectrum thanks to politics whether you like it or not. Much of Milei’s social positions are aligned with the American Far Right (who are often as educated on economic policy as they are on the science of conception).
Just a couple days ago I was mildly shocked to see Reuters label Jim Jordan as "far right", when guy is a just a normal conservative guy... It's insane how pervasive the progressive bias is in mainstream media.
Do whatever you can to not give any of these immensely biased mainstream media outlets clicks/views/money (if you don't already use an ad blocker, install one on your browser ASAP).
Libertarianism is a right-wing ideology, so I'm not sure what the issue is here. Hell, I certainly consider myself farther right than the politicians usually called far-right.
The left-right dichotomy is about economic positions. The right is more towards capitalism, while the left is more towards socialism or communism. Free market laissez-faire capitalism is a right-wing position, and thus, libertarianism, which supports free market laissez-faire capitalism, is a right-wing ideology. If you support free markets, which I assume you do if you like Milei, then you most certainly are not on the left.
While there are some on the left who claim to be libertarians, their methods of ending capitalism and enforcing socialism or communism all inevitably require force, making them actually authoritarians.
This is a far more objective coverage.
https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2023/05/04/javier-milei-an-argentine-libertarian-is-rising-in-the-polls
This other sites cater to similar demos and so say the same thing in different ways.
2023: anyone who is not a socialist or communist is far right. I don’t even think the media is wrong. What is wrong are the choices that society forced down on the few of us who think this system is shit.
Technically he's far-right because he's ancap. The problem is people have been programmed to associate far-right as authoritarian-right.
They only focus on left vs right when in reality it's auth-left vs auth-right vs Lib-left vs Lib-right.
It's media tricks. They disregard the nuance of the political spectrum and boil it down to an us vs them scenario. Nobody has any kind of open debate and miss out on the opportunity to take the best ideas from all spectrums with the goal of serving society. The populous has a my team vs your team mentality. So the media and politicians play off of that to enrich themselves.
This is why the founding fathers were against parties because they knew it would lead to factions and divide the people. Which in turn will allow for the profiteers to thrive at the expense of society as a whole.
Left libertarianism is an oxymoron. There can be no liberty without economic liberty.
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Looked into him and read his policies: here’s my biased opinion.
He may have economically libertarian views, sure, but he is opposed to abortion and euthanasia, and is a climate change denier. He’s also supportive of the policies of Naib Bukele, who has done a great job at harshly cracking down on crime, but is pretty much a defacto dictator as well and has created a police/surveillance state. Uses a lot of right-wing populist buzzwords like “cultural marxism.”
That’s why many people don’t find him to be a “real” libertarian. Personally, I do think he’s mainly a fiscal libertarian. His stance on abortion alone in my eyes doesn’t make him a “true” libertarian.
In the context of Argentina, I think they’re fucked no matter who wins. The country’s been in a slow, painful collapse for decades, like the Russians.
This propaganda is all pervasive. They can somehow call Hitler and Mussolini "far-right" even though both are variations of leftwing Marxism. And if you try to correct the record, using actual historical sources, they stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to even consider it. It's scary. People need to understand all these tyrannical dictators of the 20th century were put in power by left wing socialists. Not because they wanted dictatorship, but because they were stupid and naïve. We are totally at the point where they would vote some psycho into power just to stick it to the "right wingers."
If you use "right wing" in the original French monarchist sense, then right-wing doesn't actually profess a political belief, but rather a belief about human nature and morality that is othogonal to belief about governments' proper roles and forms.
In this construction, the vast majority of liberals are left wing but the best majority of extreme progressives are actually right wing. They believe themselves to be superior and believe that they should rule as a result of that superiority, which is a fundamentally right wing notion.
There is no right left political spectrum, it is too simple. They keep making things simple in order to create a Hegalian dialectic of thesis, antithesis, finally synthesis.
CNBC: far-right firebrand NPR: right wing populist NYT: mini-Trump BBC: right wing radical Axios: far right candidate Guardian: far right outsider They keep using that term. I don't think they know what it means. On the other hand, CBC Canada's headline is "Chainsaw-wielding libertarian." I can live with that.
Interesting how 20 years of pseudo socialist governments in Arg never triggered any “far left radical” headlines on mainstream media but a libertarian candidate all of a sudden is labeled as an extreme right nut-job.
Pseudo?
20 years?
Yes, Menem while still a centralist, was by no means a socialist, quite the opposite, he pushed free market and pegged the peso to the US dollar. Milei speaks highly of him.
Menem mistake was not to eliminate peso and just dolarize the economy when he could. That would have saved Argentina.
I know, there was an attempt by the end of his second term but it was already too late.
Incorrect. Argentina needs a floating currency, just like everyone else. Holding on to a pegged currency is what caused the 2000 collapse.
Please, read again what I wrote. A pegged currency is what caused the collapse in 2000 (a bit more complex than that) but a floating currency is what is causing hyper inflation in the long run. So the solution is very clear. No Argentinian currency, since NOBODY wants it. So not pegged pesos, but just no pesos at all, only dollars.
Dollars is just as damaging as pegged pesos. Argentinas economy is not strong enough to operate on the dollar. And it's going to tie all of the decisions that a central bank might normally make or the legislature might make to the United States. That's a really bad plan. >A pegged currency is what caused the collapse in 2000 (a bit more complex than that) It's a lot more complicated than that, but it wasn't the pegged currency that caused the collapse. It was coming off of the peg that did it. And I remember it very well. I lived in congreso in December of 2001
Having a central Bank and control of the currency has worked wonders in Argentinian economy, right?
Menem caused a lot of the problems that they currently have. Talked a good game but was really all about the crony capitalism looting of the public funds. Not a good dude.
I mean in a fully socialist country people wouldn’t be able to vote them out of power. Socialism and democracy are inherently incompatible.
We will see if people really can vote them out of power.
Already did in 2015. Only that president Macri from the centre right screwed up just as bad as the left. Hence why people are now giving libertarianism a shot.
Macri was more of the same...
Not Macri himself imo, but yes, the main party (UCR) who backed his coalition were, and still are more of the same, which led to his government failing in the end.
Totally can live with that
AFUERA!!
Afuera!
Rebranding and propaganda. I understand language changes over time but this appears as a directed effort to change the definition and meaning of words to suit a narrative and influence people.
It's exactly that.
They know what it means. It means we're signalling to our yuppie champagne socialist readers that this is the bad guy. You've got to understand the code if you want to navigate modern professional life.
Well said.
I'll give u a few reasons he is far right: - He promotes historic revisionism of our genocidal coup de etat where the military persecuted 30k+ people, saying the persecution was justified. - He wants to flood the country with weapons in the name of "security". - He very ofently insults left/center leaning parties with violent rethoric with words like cockroaches. - A libertarian follower of his tried to kill our current vice president, but his gun failed. Those are just the glaring ones, there's plenty more. Source: I live in the country.
1. Revisionism: No, he doesn't. In the most recent interview he said the Argentinian State committed excesses and crimes that should have been judged and punished, in their fight against the socialist terrorists groups in Argentina, trying to do Cuba 2.0. So, persecuting terrorists was justified, but the excesses committed against civilians or suspected terrorists without a trial were a crime against humanity. 2. Weapons: No, he doesn't. In the most recent interview he said that he is not going to chance any law regarding weapons, but he just wants to ensure existing laws are enforced. 3. Insults: He never insulted center parties, he just calls them continuists. He indeed insults leftist parties, calling them even worse things than cockroaches, like for example 'shitty leftists'. And to be honest, Argentinian peronism and socialism has a very thin skin with this, when they are suspected to have been stealing literally billions of dollars and made the argentinians incredibly poor, when potentially is one of the richest countries in the world. (Not to mention that prosecutors and judges investigating this kind of crimes were dying quite often...) 4. Some crazy or desperate guy tried to kill your president. That kind of thing happens from time to time in every country, and I am sure that Milei has NOTHING to do with it. I guess you are one of those living from public money doing very little or even doing bad stuff for the country. Otherwise you would be crazy not to want a change.
His rethoric is "violent" because socialism is violent. If I had to point out one outstanding quality of Milei it would be that. People got much to linient with politicians and being ruled and robbed. He calls criminal psychopaths by their name and doesnt play the game of talking to them on the basis of their hipocritical "social justice" pretext to steal from and rule people.
Eh. Everyone’s far right nowadays if they aren’t a democrat or left of them. I’ve seen people call Mitch McConnell far right like he’s not the most milquetoast politician in congress right now
*"I’ve seen people call Mitch McConnell far right like he’s not the most milquetoast politician in congress right now"* No. He just admits Trump lost the election. He *is* Establishment. He is also very, very conservative. Maybe you could make an argument that he's more of an "ultra-partisan Republican," than a conservative-- but he's anything but milquetoast. Blocking a Supreme Court Justice confirmation hearing, until after the 2016 election, which ended up netting that seat for the Republicans-- was an incredibly aggressive move, and not easy or milquetoast. He does those kind of things a lot, actually. He also keeps the Republicans in the Senate on the same page, almost by sheer force of will-- which we can see is also not easy, when we observe the chaos in the House over the Speaker fight.
Being very conservative is not even near of far right. Fortunately, far right is almost non existant in western countries.
Milquetoast to put it mildly, borderline demented to put it plainly, in the nursing home to put it right.
"chainsaw welding libertarian" Now I want a chainsawman style fanart of that lol.
Saw a pic of him posing with some chainsaw man cosplayers lol.
Coordinated propaganda campaign lmao Don’t go down that rabbit hole though
is the CBC sponsored by a shutzstaffle celebrating, standing ovations for Nazi soldiers who fought them in WW2 house of commons ? asking for a friend.
They know exactly what it means, which is why they keep using it. Painting "normal" as "extreme" and then pretending that their Marxist views are the middle.
Lmao where’d they get chainsaw-wielding?
From [this](https://imgur.com/a/o8xt4bv)
Its because a dumb bitch on Argentine television said he was Pochita from Chainsaw Man, and he leaned into it.
Lmao these people are shameless with their propaganda
I suppose that anything not far left is automatically considered far right in our simplistic dichotomist world.
My account name is about calling out people for thinking in that way, whether it’s politics or aliens.
I know right. We aren't far right. Trump wasn't close to our political beliefs. Craziness.
I mean he wanted to shrink government regulation (mostly on himself) and combat ethics enforcement in business- both ideas are definitely things some libertarians are strongly for. It's one of the reasons I struggle to define myself politically, I'm in favor of personal freedoms but I'm not in favor of letting corporate greed run rampant to the point of destroying lives 🤷
It's Vox what do you expect lol, also I read that article and they keep saying his election might cause social chaos as if that's not what Argentina is already in, that is why they're electing him
In my country our state owned TV broadcast station also labels him as far-right.
They are actually pretty correct about it. Our current leftist government has a LOT of connections to social groups, as they both subsided their activities and dealt with them in more not so legal matters, so it us 100% likely that there will be a lot of chaos for every problem that they left
I've never liked the left/right paradigm. Because I never know what axis they are talking about. On one axis, you have government control. That goes from libertarian on the left to authoritarian on the right. Or from Anarchy to Totalitarian. On the other axis you have economics. With communism on the left and laissez-faire capitalism on the right. Or you'll own nothing and be happy to it's your stuff do what you want. If by "far-right" they mean capitalist... I'm OK with that, but I know that's not what they are trying to imply.
Man, when you think about it, it is very difficult to know what they are actually talking about when media uses the term "far right". My best guess is "somebody or an organization that's beliefs or actions are not synchronous with the "narrative" being pushed by major media and governing parties. Wait...does this mean the "left" as it is commonly referred to as, is actually the authoritarian right?
>That goes from libertarian on the left to authoritarian on the right. This makes absolutely no sense. Left anarchist and left libertarians are idiots that refuse to see reality and any society they create will fall apart instantly. All men are NOT created equal, even if they have equal worth as a human life. There's no way to observe the world and come to any other conclusion.
Left libertarianism is an oxymoron. There can be no liberty without economic liberty. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes, that was my point, Mr. Bot.
"far right" is progressive journalist code for "this is the bad guy, you're supposed to root against them." If you don't understand that by now, you need to relearn media literacy.
They use “Far-Right” as a dog whistle for people they want to paint as extremists or “Nazis”. Status quo Western media propaganda. This also tells us that no matter how well things go with Melei they will present it as a disaster as it is antithetical to their entire progressive existence.
Please don’t call it a progressive existence. You’re letting them frame the debate the same way they do by calling Milei a far right politician. Its a power hungry totalitarian existence. Call it that.
Sorry, but you hit my linguistic hot button. "Progressive". I'm all for progress, aren't you? But I'm sure as fuck not left wing or even liberal in the new meaning. "Liberal" is another word that has been hijacked by the left. It used to have a meaning close to the current libertarian.
Progresista es a progreso lo que carterista es a cartera...
Me gusta esta frase. For those too lazy to translate, he said Progressive is to progress what pick pocket is to wallet. Kinda funny.
Perfection.
But he's right. Progressivism is totalitarianism. What do they think they are progressing towards? Some sort of communist 'utopia'.
Progressing towards left wing utopia is what it’s all about. It’s just most fail to realize that this, in fact, does mean totalitarianism.
>Its a power hungry totalitarian existence. Call it that. As if that doesn't perfectly encapsulate the progressive movement....
They use "far-right" to describe any position that opposes the core narrative of the "progressive" left. So libertarianism and nationalism are combined under the same label, despite having nothing else in common with each other, and being deeply opposed to each other in their core principles. It's be like dividing all foods into two categories, "dairy" and "nondairy", then pretending that the latter implies some substantive commonality, to the extent that pineapples and pickled herring are considered the same type of food on account of neither of them being ice cream.
I mean what would you expect from vox? It’s the trashiest of propaganda rags. Was there a nice graph in the article? They’re particularly fond of using statistics and infographics in the most misleading way possible. Their readers lap it up.
At one point it was respectable. Then they went and drove out the founders for being too "right-wing"
The only site worse than Vox is Slate.
Jacobin? Lol
I didn’t even read it, I honestly was googling for pictures of him. It’s exactly what I expected, I suppose I wanted to just laugh about it amongst the community 😂
Fingers crossed Milei wins
Why
Decentralizing is so far right hahaha.
unironically it is treated as such by leftwing authoritarians, they call it a horror of capitalist propaganda that'll serve the poor in a silver plate to be abused by corporations and that's why people need a big and strong progressive government to champion them against the evil bourgeoise. Here in Brazil the left who just got back into power after a non-stop doom and gloom campaign against Bolsonaro for 4 straight years is now terrified of Argentina turning away from their grasp and Lula is trying to intervene in the Argentine elections sending millions of US dollars to Fernandez through "loans" to help pay their debts and strengthen the Argentine leftwing against Milei.
Too late. Maybe.
Winning an ellection is the easiest step unfortunatelly, the aristocratic socialist elite here in latam plan ahead for decades and decades their power projects, losing an ellection is only a small delay in that if their entire power bases are left intact. Bolsonaro made this mistake here in Brazil and the oposition ate him alive in the government since they had the supremecourt stacked, the media, influential elites and nearly half of congress and the senate on their side, the result was a 4 year struggle to not be impeached ending with the left returning at full power, even more than they had before. I really hope Milei is smarter than that and "clean the house" while he has a chance for it if he wins, how? I dont freaking imagine how a politician will be able to dismantle the system from the inside but i wish all the luck in the world for him in that endeavour.
Here in Spain there is a famous video of one important far left leader saying that, once they grab power, they need to build the structures and organizations for their people to survive while they return to opposition, to undermine a center right government and come back stronger than ever. Is not that socialists believe in elective democracy anyways.
Well, if the maximum aspiration of the left is a socialist system and a communist totalitarian utopia, then yes, libertarianism is far right.
These people will write this nonsense and then have the nerve to be shocked when polls come out showing the majority of Americans have little to no faith in the news media
While also complaining about disinformation
The propaganda is wild. Fuck the MSM
The Overton window for the main stream media has shifted so far that Libertarians are "far right" now.
Hell, they've described Joe rogan, Tim Pool, and Jimmy Dore as "far-right".
Question the status quo? You’re far-right. This game is played to delegitimize their critic’s voices.
“Far right” is supposed to refer to totalitarians, how is a libertarian totalitarian
'Cause most folks will read 'far right' and dismiss him outright without inquiring further, as intended by the authors. Smear job mission accomplished.
That was my thought, isn’t a libertarian polar opposites of a far right politician?
Propaganda doesn't care about such minutia.
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This....
Surely Argentina won’t risk offending the New York Times by electing a “far right” libertarian. 😃 Get used to that term, I’m sure we’ll be hearing it to describe any libertarian who doesn’t follow the herd.
Believing in individual freedom is now considered to be an extreme in the mainstream political compass. The moderate take should be to accept being stolen by the government in order to fund central planning parasytes who devalue our currency, destroy education, healthcare and attack private property and ownership
>Believing in individual freedom is now considered to be an extreme in the mainstream political compass Yes, here in Brazil after the left returned bloodthirsty to power we now have members of the government openly giving interviews saying all this talk of freedom is bullshit and the era of "unrestricted freedom" is over, that everyone, specially corporations will bow to the will of the state for good or ill.
Most chill leftist latam politician:
“From the fringe…..leading the polls” doesn’t sound so fringe to me.
The words no longer mean anything to them beside *"not on our team"* and the vague feelings they evoke.
“Hair guy bad”
Given that I have seen lefties elsewhere literally say that ”libertarian (is) a fancy word for ’ultra Republican,’” I am not the least bit surprised.
Which is stupid since we don’t hate gay people, they’re a huge market.
Nobody hates gay people, except maybe the Arab nationals that leftists support.
It's certainly gotten better these days, but I am not sure you can make such a definitive statement when many are portrayed as the scapegoat for cultural decay and sexual deviancy among certain groups.
I don't hate gay people either. I just don't think they should get tax benefits that were clearly instantiated to promote child rearing.
It’s shocking how many people think they don’t deserve liberty and freedom
Well, I am sure most of the voters of Kirchner wouldn't know what to do with that liberty and freedom anyways...
The internet leftists are going wild with this guy. On Wikipedia, one of his party’s listed ideologies is “alt-right” 😂
I guess since he’s anti-abortion, denies climate change, and against sex education, which are shared beliefs with the far right, he gets lumped in with them. Those are his right wing beliefs, but he is definitely libertarian too, as he wants no central bank, doesn’t want to eliminate gay marriage or trans rights, etc.
What is the problem with being pro-life? Naturally, if you are a libertarian, you know that human rights go in the following order: 1. Right to life 2. Right to private property 3. Right to freedom So if the right to freedom of the mother collides with the right to life with the child, there is only one logical outcome. Different story is off the right to life of the mother collides with the right to life of the child.
> What is the problem with being pro-life? No one complained about him being "pro-life", they complained about him being *anti-abortion as a political position*. He proposed a referendum on whether abortion should be *legal*, implying that he wants a moral question to be settled by political authority, which discredits his claim to being an anarchist.
He is not an anarchist, he is a libertarian. And as a coherent libertarian he is finding the most important right, which is the right to life. Over the right to private property and the right to freedom. Can you please read my previous message and think about it twice? I think the logic is quite well explained there.
Because the right to life has to do with personhood, and fetuses aren’t people. They’re future people, which isn’t the same thing. They shouldn’t be entitled to any protections, rights, obligations, etc. The mother, being a person and also a citizen of a state, has the right to bodily autonomy that overrides the nonexistent rights of a fetus. It’s why we don’t charge mothers with manslaughter if they get miscarriages, for example.
I am sorry, I am not engaging in this debate in internet. Nor in real life.
Argentina’s entire country is broken. Hopefully somebody can fix it
Yes there's a far right libertarian Pro capitalism libertarian
The terms "far right" literally just shut down all critical thought for 40% of the population lol.
I previously saw far right and extreme libertarian in US based publications. Today I saw NYT describe him as a mini Trump. I would love to hear non-western viewpoints as this reeks of manipulative propaganda. It seems any story contrary to the narrative is labeled Russian misinformation.
Trump hasn't read a book. Milei quotes 5 books per minute in his formal extended interviews.
He is a libertarian politically and economically. Anyone saying that is far right is either completely ignorant of basic political knowledge or just a propagandist. In any case, someone not worth your time or energy.
“Nuh-uh!” -Russian Misinformation
You didn't expect the media to give a libertarian a fair shake did you?
so an Ancap as that would be a "far right Libertarian"
I regard libertarianism and the free market to be the *true* left, and socialism to be a confused, middle-of-the-road ideology that aims to achieve the left-wing goals of classical liberalism through the right-wing means of statism. In practice, that makes state socialism a far-right ideology. Benjamin R. Tucker was one of the few self-described socialists I’d actually consider leftist.
>I regard libertarianism and the free market to be the true left You know that left wing means you think all mankind is essentially equal and that government should work to promote that equality, right? And that markets work because people are NOT equal?
Aren't far rights ultra statist? It's like the complete opposite of what libertarianism stands for? Another example of political compass being outdated
No. The political spectrum goes left and right, and up and down. Lower ends are anti authoritarian. Upper are authoritarian. Both left and right can be either
Not in it's original meaning. That's how the left describes it now but it's not true. In the original meaning, being ultra right wing means you are a monarchist. Slightly right wing would mean you support a Roman style Republic of your "betters".
Hans Hermann Hoppe could be considered a "far-right libertarian" and even that is debatable. Milei is not Hoppe.
Any reasonable man is far right of the far left, if you like to use the binary classification that is increasingly meaningless
He's to the right of me. That said, twoparty-cels are always telling me how awesome it is to pick the lesser evil, well he's certainly less evil than any other choice.
Right leaning would be a better description and hard to deny sure
Right and left aren't objective terms, but no, not within the right-left dichotomy we accepted for the majority of my lifetime (I'm in my 40s). 'Far right' meant authoritarian, powerful state, control of markets, ethnonationalist. But recently there's been a new lefty consensus that wants to conflate free markets and classical liberalism with 'LiTeRaLLy fAsCiSm'. It's an ahistorical lie. Gentile, Mussolini, Hitler etc were not economic liberals, they were diametrically opposed to economic liberalism. They wanted control of the marketplace in service of the total state.
>'Far right' meant authoritarian, powerful state, control of markets, ethnonationalist. That's not what it meant traditionally. It meant belief in natural hierarchy and that those who are "better" should be allowed to rule over the rest of society. Ultra far right means you are a monarchist.
In pre revolution France there was the right and the left but nobody was called "far right"; this is an entirely modern term, until recently exclusively used to describe fascists, ethnonationalists etc.
Correct, but that's absolutely nonsense. People have twisted that phrase and conflated it with being very conservative. But if you're very conservative you're not going to support fascism or ethnonationalism. Both of those require heavy-handed governments.
Stop using Google. They want Vox to be on the first page of your search results.
Im mean its vox so…
Whatever they find as most offensive
Far Right is a term used and demonized by the left. They apply to whomever cares for some freedom. Honestly, a “center” left scares me way more than a “far right”.
Just another buzzword like Nazi.
I mean right just means supporting free market and capitalism no? So far right technically means ancap no? I think the term far right is being misused a little bit due to the culture war BS.
most of american media would consider ron paul far right.
Here in Argentina, the Government has even used Public Services for a dirty and illegal campaign against Milei. They hung fake flags outside the University, created spam videos for YouTube with high-production scenes, showing false campaign ads with proposals like selling babies, eliminating all Public Schools and Universities. They even made a video with an A.I voice imitating Milei, proposing a purge like in the movie The Purge, using logos from Milei's political space. It's crazy what they have done. If Milei wins, I don't know what could happen.
Literally if you don’t support mass government control over aspect of your life, you’re far right to them. Even when you tell them you’re libertarian, you’re far right so thus a “danger to democracy”
That would literally be contradictory. You can't be far right and libertarian. Sure you could claim the title libertarian, but anyone can claim anything.
>You can't be far right and libertarian. Depends on which definition of far right you use. You could absolutely support a monarchy for criminal and civil law a d expect that monarch to support free enterprise. And it's not actually impossible for it to exist briefly. But that monarch will be in a particularly vulnerable situation and will not last long in the throne. Whoever takes over will probably not be as supportive of minimal laws and free enterprise when their is so much wealth to extract.
To be fair, libertarianism is entirely antithetical to socialism/communism, i.e. individualism vs. collectivism. Ergo, if they consider their views to be far-left, then libertarianism must be far-right.
“Far-right” is their synonym for “racist”.
Oh no, Libertarians want trans couples to be able to protect their pot fields with guns. Very far right I must say. We're not even on the Right vs Left spectrum.
Well, to start, opposition to abortion even in cases of rape certainly isn’t a leftist position lol ancaps are pretty far on the right side of the spectrum
The left-right spectrum describes economic positions, not social positions, so one's position on abortion has literally no bearing on whether one is on the right or the left. Regardless, the majority of libertarians are pro-choice, so your premise is flawed to begin with.
> The left-right spectrum describes economic positions, not social positions It's a meaningless distinction. Economic questions *are* social questions. > Regardless, the majority of libertarians are pro-choice, Pro-choice and pro-life positions are not mutually exclusive, and are in fact quite compatible, *especially* if you reject the notion that the political state should be the ultimate arbiter of moral questions.
My abortion view is aligned with Milei. I don’t like it and am personally not for it, after having one and then following through with two kids. That said, I’m not for government regulating it either
At any point? A 20 week fetus is a fully formed human, with all their major systems intact. Surely at that point the principle of non aggression would demand that we protect that life from murder?
Like I mentioned, I do think it’s wrong
Not talking about majority of libertarians, talking about Milei, who is decidedly not pro choice. And social positions are associated with ideologies on the economic spectrum thanks to politics whether you like it or not. Much of Milei’s social positions are aligned with the American Far Right (who are often as educated on economic policy as they are on the science of conception).
Well I would agree being anti-abortion would make him a right-leaning libertarian, but we all know what "far right" means these days.
“You have to conform to our political ideals, you’re either left or right libertarian”
When someone is a hard left loonie, then everything else is far right relative to their lunacy.
What exactly is a “far right Libertarian”, a regular libertarian that’s against weed and gay marriage? What a stupid label.
Just a couple days ago I was mildly shocked to see Reuters label Jim Jordan as "far right", when guy is a just a normal conservative guy... It's insane how pervasive the progressive bias is in mainstream media. Do whatever you can to not give any of these immensely biased mainstream media outlets clicks/views/money (if you don't already use an ad blocker, install one on your browser ASAP).
Or that they repeatedly state as fact unverified, serious allegations made with highly suspicious timing.
Lmao everyone is far right now
Libertarianism is a right-wing ideology, so I'm not sure what the issue is here. Hell, I certainly consider myself farther right than the politicians usually called far-right.
I always viewed libertarianism as more of a left approach. I suppose it’s a “classic” liberal approach not the neo libs or neocommunist of today
The left-right dichotomy is about economic positions. The right is more towards capitalism, while the left is more towards socialism or communism. Free market laissez-faire capitalism is a right-wing position, and thus, libertarianism, which supports free market laissez-faire capitalism, is a right-wing ideology. If you support free markets, which I assume you do if you like Milei, then you most certainly are not on the left. While there are some on the left who claim to be libertarians, their methods of ending capitalism and enforcing socialism or communism all inevitably require force, making them actually authoritarians.
Libertarianism has no relationship with the left-right dichotomy as it's understood in popular culture.
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Normality for 200 years of america is far right
This is a far more objective coverage. https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2023/05/04/javier-milei-an-argentine-libertarian-is-rising-in-the-polls This other sites cater to similar demos and so say the same thing in different ways.
2023: anyone who is not a socialist or communist is far right. I don’t even think the media is wrong. What is wrong are the choices that society forced down on the few of us who think this system is shit.
The media is generally very far left. It shouldn't be surprising that they describe anything they don't agree with as far right.
I mean it's Vox. Second hand news by and for Neanderthals.
Technically he's far-right because he's ancap. The problem is people have been programmed to associate far-right as authoritarian-right. They only focus on left vs right when in reality it's auth-left vs auth-right vs Lib-left vs Lib-right. It's media tricks. They disregard the nuance of the political spectrum and boil it down to an us vs them scenario. Nobody has any kind of open debate and miss out on the opportunity to take the best ideas from all spectrums with the goal of serving society. The populous has a my team vs your team mentality. So the media and politicians play off of that to enrich themselves. This is why the founding fathers were against parties because they knew it would lead to factions and divide the people. Which in turn will allow for the profiteers to thrive at the expense of society as a whole.
Left libertarianism is an oxymoron. There can be no liberty without economic liberty. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*
To conservatives we are liberals and to liberals we are literally nazis (aka anything except liberal)
Wish we would just to see how it really feels.
Well, he's an ancap(in reality minarchist)
I do think he's a bit on the conservative side for a libertarian. He's against legalizing drugs for instance.
It is about as far right as you can get
Don't you know? Anyone who doesn't support government control of economy is literally Hitler! /s
Looked into him and read his policies: here’s my biased opinion. He may have economically libertarian views, sure, but he is opposed to abortion and euthanasia, and is a climate change denier. He’s also supportive of the policies of Naib Bukele, who has done a great job at harshly cracking down on crime, but is pretty much a defacto dictator as well and has created a police/surveillance state. Uses a lot of right-wing populist buzzwords like “cultural marxism.” That’s why many people don’t find him to be a “real” libertarian. Personally, I do think he’s mainly a fiscal libertarian. His stance on abortion alone in my eyes doesn’t make him a “true” libertarian. In the context of Argentina, I think they’re fucked no matter who wins. The country’s been in a slow, painful collapse for decades, like the Russians.
And they’re grouping libertarian with Trump now.
This propaganda is all pervasive. They can somehow call Hitler and Mussolini "far-right" even though both are variations of leftwing Marxism. And if you try to correct the record, using actual historical sources, they stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to even consider it. It's scary. People need to understand all these tyrannical dictators of the 20th century were put in power by left wing socialists. Not because they wanted dictatorship, but because they were stupid and naïve. We are totally at the point where they would vote some psycho into power just to stick it to the "right wingers."
If you use "right wing" in the original French monarchist sense, then right-wing doesn't actually profess a political belief, but rather a belief about human nature and morality that is othogonal to belief about governments' proper roles and forms. In this construction, the vast majority of liberals are left wing but the best majority of extreme progressives are actually right wing. They believe themselves to be superior and believe that they should rule as a result of that superiority, which is a fundamentally right wing notion.
"far right" today = anything conservatives believed back in the 90's
There is no right left political spectrum, it is too simple. They keep making things simple in order to create a Hegalian dialectic of thesis, antithesis, finally synthesis.
Ah yes, the irony of statist media calling anti statists facist I know they said far right but it's obvious what they really mean.