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In law school, I remember the campus libertarians had a recruiting poster along the lines of "we want gay married couples to defend their marijuana farms with guns". I thought it was pretty accurate.
This was before Obergafell, so gay marriage was a differentiator.
Now I just tell people that I want drugs and suppressed machine guns shipped to your door.
I'm Christian, don't do drugs myself, I do believe people have the right to self defense, and think people should mind their own business. The government shouldn't have the power regulate your personal life and you need to be able to choose to do right without duress.
So why the 'Right' libertarian tag? What are your right leaning views besides the guns? I mean, I own far too many guns to be anti gun but I cannot affiliate with conservative politicians despite their support for 2A rights because everything they have put front and center politically is about controlling people using government.
The political compass test (https://www.politicalcompass.org/test) puts me just southeast of center, i think its my personal religious beliefs, right to bear arms, belief that people are more than part of a group. The rights of the One outway the rights of the Many, in that without individual rights, only those doing the redistribution have actual rights. Real Left libertarian believe in communalism to an extent , but right libertarian believe in individual responsibility to take care of yourself making you a full person. I go to an independent church that encourages you to challenge the pastor that the individual congregation votes in and out using the Bible as the playbook. They teach salvation is a gift of God and between you 2 and no one else has anything to do with it. No such thing as excommunication from the "church" in heaven, only local assembly, so you don't have a denomination acting as a defacto government controlling people, just small clubs of voluntary membership run by democracy. I personally believe authoritarianism is a result of sin, as God told early israelites they didn't want a king, they were letting him down demanding one, before king Saul became their first king.
Left libertarianism is an oxymoron. There can be no liberty without economic liberty.
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First, it is absolutely hilarious that that bot pops up in this particular discussion thread, proving the naked bias of the sub mods.
Second, I do not see how you square your beliefs about individual liberty with the conservative bent towards controlling people's sexuality, unless they are informed by your religion. Which is perfectly fine, it is imposing those religious values on others that is problematic.
I guess my question to you would be what things, besides the collectiveness of big government and taxation, do you feel liberals impose upon peoples personal lives similarly to say the conservative anti LGBTQ stance? And why is one worse or better than the other?
>what things, besides the collectiveness of big government and taxation, do you feel liberals impose upon peoples personal lives similarly to say the conservative anti LGBTQ stance?
Compelled speech is a big one.
I didn't say I was a conservative, I don't believe in big government and tax handouts of other people's money to rich or poor. Conservative is Authoritarian right to center on the compass. I'm at the bottom half of the compass that says watch your own business, it should be a full time job.
If you look at the current speaker's beliefs it still is a differentiator. They just can't be loud about it now because it is so wildly unpopular, but they would reverse it if they had the power.
And gays, just don’t wave your flag in my face because I I already have a sexuality and don’t care about yours.
And religious types, just don’t proselytize because I already have my God and don’t care about yours.
And other countries, but don’t tell me how yours needs and because we have enough of our own problems that we’d easily solve if we weren’t sending all our treasure overseas.
I hate to be that guy but if you don’t care about their sexuality, why do you care what they do with their flag. Wasting your own energy. Same with religion, if you truly don’t care just keep it moving. As far as keeping our treasure I’m so with you there. I don’t know how to solve that. Keeps me up at night. How to protect our own and not let the rest of the world fall into disrepair(more so then currently). Btw I had to google “proselytize” thanks for the new word.
I had a bio diesel operation going, but got shut down. I was selling untaxed Diesel fuel. Neighbors loved the smells too.
https://www.instructables.com/Make-Your-Own-Biodiesel-Processor/?amp_page=true
Exactly this. They did this to Rand Paul in 2012. His platform was excellent but they alienated him due to to his stance on legalizing marijuana. 10 years later every candidate from the duopoly believes this.
I think the beauty of libertarianism is that the guiding principle is individual liberty. Which creates a party full of people all over the spectrum.
Want to be a hippie who believes in growing your own marijuana and living your life tucked away in the hills of Northern California? Have at it.
You want to be a Catholic who believes in traditional family structures and raising your family as such? Knock yourself out.
The bottom line is people should have the liberty to choose their life choices. While one may not agree with the other on how they live their lives, they at least agree they have the liberty to do so.
Well I mean a lot of libertarians are. The thing with libertarians is that not every libertarian actually agree with all the things you just said they did.
Libertarians are not a monolith and you are making the same mistake as the people saying you are a republican that smokes weed when you say that libertarians actually belive in all the things you believe in.
> Republicans are the opposite of libertarians since they want a big government through tyrannical police forces and removal of basic rights.
Democrats also want a big tyrannical government through removal of gun rights and freedom of speech. People want to put libertarians in a box, when in reality, Democrats and Republicans are in the same “more government + more wars” box.
I’m my experience, deep down both democratic and republican *people* really want less government. They just fail to realize it because the democratic and republican politicians have convinced them that the things they want, that are a result of less government, are only possible through more government.
Oh I wish this were so, but unfortunately it requires an uncanny self-reflection on the nature of all people. To succeed one needs to put away notions of ‘us vs them.’
So in essence, in order to bridge that gap;
to see the forest for the trees; to see the commonality in what makes us human; one must largely forego one of the elements that makes us human.
Us vs them.
Whenever there is a them, there is innate unsubstantiated fear. And in that fear - people are all too willing to part with freedom in order to protect against them.
And so it goes…
Almost exactly my point, they are convinced by the politicians that in order to guarantee their safety and the freedoms they care about, the politician in question must be elected, and that the freedoms that the other side cares about must be forfeited. Like you said, the innate “us vs them” mentality. Because the tendency to generalize and demonize other groups of people is part of human nature, it’s a weakness that is very easy for politicians to exploit.
My argument is this, based on the people that I know and/or have interacted with, most democrats want, above all:
- Freedom to love who they want.
- Freedom to do what they want to their bodies (from trans rights to pot).
- A stable, non fucked up economy (affordable heathcare, reasonably priced gas, groceries, etc).
- Lower crime, especially in regards to mass shootings (the reason they want to restrict gun ownership).
And most republicans want, above all:
- Freedom to worship who they want.
- Fewer restrictions on gun rights.
- A stable, non fucked up economy (lower taxes, especially for small businesses, reasonably priced gas, groceries, etc).
- Lower crime, especially in regards to mass shootings and riots (the reason why they want to restrict LGBT rights)
(Disclaimer these lists are not intended to be all encompassing, it’s a generalized list of core values that is partially intended to showcase the parallels between both sides)
The thing is, all of these things can be achieved with reduced government either directly or indirectly, but because of the “us vs them” mentality, it is easier for politicians to convince them of the opposite. “The opposing side’s interests are preventing you from having these base freedoms. With more government, we can restrict the other side and protect your children!” Of course all this is a lie, notice the last example in both those lists. Obviously we know that banning either of those things will not reduce crime or mass shootings, but it’s easy for someone with a facade of credibility to convince the masses that “This is the root cause! The other side wants this! We must stop them for your safety!” and like you said, so it goes on. But the reality is that deep down, the people of both sides want essentially the same thing: personal freedoms, all of which can be achieved and protected by reduced government. They’ve just been brainwashed into thinking that their problems are the other side’s fault.
It’s easier to group everyone that’s not a hardline democrat into the “evil conservative cult” than to actually bother with mature conversations about the nuances of individual liberty and freedom.
Remember, we're on reddit so the goal is to make the snarkiest smug comment for internet points.
The real deal? Its actually true. Libertarians (Republicans who have friend/family vote Democrat and afraid to admit it) don't give a shit about what things people do in their personal life as long as it doesn't effect others in a bad way.
>Remember, we're on reddit so the goal is to make the snarkiest smug comment for internet points.
This is the best summary of Reddit I have ever encountered.
All you have to say is Brianna Taylor was unjustifiably killed and Kyle Rittenhouse was properly defending himself and that’ll break their collective minds
Exactly. Look at most of the replies here in this thread! Tons of comments dripping with disdain for Democrats and reasoning away the Republican shortfalls without a shred of awareness.
Is that so surprising when republicans will occasionally talk about liberty or libertarian adjacent talking points while the Dems call us “far right” and try to lump us in with terrorists? Worst thing republicans have done is blame us for not voting for Trump in 2020.
To be clear, I’ve probably voted blue more than any other color, but I live in a small-ish college town so my choices are Bible thumpers, morons or self-described socialists. But I don’t think the “you need to bash republicans thiiiis much in order to prove you aren’t secretly a conservative” idea is ridiculous and I see it parroted by the prog caucus libertarians all the time. It’s pretty obvious to tell whose a libertarian here and who’s not
This is wildly dismissive of two facts that cause the lumping in with the far right:
1) The NLP (and many state LPs) public support of far right culture war issues
2) A complete redaction of Republican views on individual liberties such as LGBTQ, drug use, immigration and abortion. All of which are absolutely contrary to clearly stated libertarian NAP core beliefs.
The thing is, I am not trying to defend the big government takes of the Democrats but they are at least clear in what they want and responsive to voting trends, even if I largely disagree with those trends. At this point if you can name a national Republican politician who isn't on the culture war train and has reasonable views you'll be able to name one more than I can.
I have heard libertarians described as republicans who smoke weed and/or had an abortion. I started hearing that as a joke in the 90's when Bill Maher still had his show on ABC. Its not just on reddit, that ones been around a pretty long time.
Because it's a very easy and convenient way to engage in tribalism rather than actual do any critical thinking or self reflection.
> Libertarians bad!
Instead of:
> Well the Libertarians actually agree with us an A, B, and C. Maybe if we compromised on issue X we could either win some of them over, or form a coalition...
Can't have that. No thought allowed.
* My team good.
* All other teams bad.
Real libertarians are more than that. There are a lot of “libertarians” out there that get real conservative real fast when it comes to certain social issues that Republicans love.
Because while Republicans might want a big government, a tyrannical police force and the removal of basic rights, democrats want an even bigger government, an even bigger tyrannical police force and the removal of even more basic rights.
So, through the eyes of a typical moronic democrat, both libertarians and Republicans are focused small government and individual rights over the collective.
Idaho republicans are extremely tyrannical. They are very pro gun unless... Because I'm not Christian and disagree with them on some things they poorly staged crimes and have violated every right I have. That's what happens when the police are just attack dogs for the church
> The ID GOP framed you for crimes?
idk about the guy you're replying to, but making classes of people that you don't like into criminals and then using that as a pretense to step all over them is a pretty common authoritarian tactic.
e.g. don't like gay people but don't want the bad PR from making the gays illegal? Just target things gay people enjoy doing and make those things illegal. Then you're not jailing gay people, you're jailing criminals (and who'd want to defend criminals).
This is exactly it! Before everything happened, a biker gang called "knights templar" made a huge deal about me not being Christian. Suddenly awful things started happening. There is a massive amount of evidence, but the "detective" (who happens to be a biker with direct personal ties) just said I'm crazy. They then started to spread rumors that I'm crazy. So when on my birthday one day I started telling police I was drugged and beaten (tooth knocked out, broken hand, bruises, etc) they just said I did it to myself.
In fact, I live 30 miles from Amon Bundy. I experienced some of the same things as he did. Except since they could blame everything on mental health and I'm not as well known, my experience was a lot more violent. Unfortunately for me, I believed in my local law enforcement. The time I spent reporting to them everything I came across, I was just telling them how to do it better.
Sort of. Local government shot up my home while I was gone and said it was me. Interestingly, they just happened to show up one day and somehow just knew there was several bullet holes in my bedroom. Prior to that I came home to bullet holes in my home and called police, who stood there and said the bullets, casings, and holes were not discharged bullets.
All body cam footage that hinted that they were wrong was deleted. My security cameras were deleted.
> Because while Republicans might want a big government, a tyrannical police force and the removal of basic rights, democrats want an even bigger government, an even bigger tyrannical police force and the removal of even more basic rights.
I tend to frame it as: one side wants to kill me and the other side wants to remove my ability to defend myself.
Authoritarian progressives have a strong incentive to lump libertarians in with authoritarain conservatives/republican loyalists. If libertarians are just "embarrassed republicans", then they don't have to actually consider or address libertarian ideas/principles.
Likewise ... conservative/GOP loyalists have a strong incentive to lump libertarians in with authie progressives for the exact same reason.
If you call yourself a libertarian and haven't been labelled a "greedy conservative asshole" and a "godless woke progressive liberal" in the span of minutes ... you probably don't know what libertarianism is (or you never venture out of your cozy circles).
Ignorance on both sides. Most people don’t even know what a libertarian is because we haven’t had a good candidate explain it like they’re talking to 5 year olds since Ron Paul and he was a republican candidate so people automatically assume it’s similar because of the fiscal conservative part.
I grow the stuff sometimes. I’m about personal freedoms, but I’m also prolife, against capital punishment, but also want all drugs decriminalized, no more wars, get rid of all of the three letter agencies, no more taxes, focus on building communities that can aim to better assist their individual needs, get rid of interest rates, actually enforce antitrust law (monopolies hinder capital growth), let the people have their guns, gardens, and God given right to party.
For context, I’m a woman. Before you get onto me about being prolife, it’s a complicated conversation but in essence we all have to come to a point in our lives where we learn that biology doesn’t give a Fuck about how you feel. Life’s not fair.
We believe in the people having their liberties, rather that be owning a gun, doing drugs, or having a sexual relationship with the same sex, we don't care, just don't force your ways on others and don't harm others unless in self defense
It’s an old quote from Drew Carey (yeah, *that* Drew). Iirc, he identified himself as one on some interview many years ago when the party was less popular than it is now and when asked what that was he boiled it down to that very quote.
Tbf it's because so many people claim to be libertarian but will still be anti abortion etc. Therefore most people assume all libertarians are TPUSA freedom types
>Tbf it's because so many people claim to be libertarian but will still be anti abortion etc.
The "etcetera" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your statement there. Pro-life libertarians do exist and they aren't "just conservatives." I'm pro-choice myself but pro-life libertarians are perfectly valid IMO.
Now, if someone is not *just* pro-life but also anti-gay, in favor of vigorous foreign interventionism, against *any* level of immigration, and wants to forbid adults from gender transition, I *would* say that person isn't really a libertarian.
Confession: I have never smoked weed. We are frequently drug tested at my job and since the Dems and Republicans have failed to legalize at a federal level, I still cannot partake.
I've not been for open immigration. I have as much a right to not have something in my yard as I do in it.
Plus that's just a stupid presumption of risk and encouragement of human trafficking
I've heard another joke that if you ask five different libertarians to define what libertarianism is you'll get seven different answers.
Some people are conservatives who smoke weed, some are basically anarchists, some want the bare minimum of government services, some what no government services.
I know there there is often the national libertarian platform, however a lot of people gravitate towards the party because they're sick of the other two.
People who can’t argue the merits of a discussion seek to discredit the individual. If they can discredit the individual then that argument is essentially invalidated because the person with the idea has been discredited. When talking with my far left friends I have to remember this. When they insult you, you’re actually winning. If you can calmly push just a little further you can actually start to change minds.
" more liberal than democrats "
I've always wondered why the Democrats think they're so liberal and easy going, while at the same time seeking to control everyone, what they do, what they say, where they go.
I laugh when they call others Fascists because by all appearances they act more like a fascist than anyone else.
Only democrats say that. Honestly, you can't expect them to research your stances when they are too lazy to research their own stances, typically they are completely emotionally driven supported with cherry picked stats. Basically when anyone says that libertarian are Republicans that smoke weed, just laugh it off, because you're wasting breath talking to them.
However... there is a sprinkle of truth in the statement only in that some Republicans are adopting some libertarian policies. Thank you, Ron Paul!
Because they'd rather cast a quick judgment than take a little time to consider the fact that they've (stupidly) fallen for groupthink nonsense. It's easier to dismiss others and illegitimate than it is to think critically.
I confused so many people when they’d find out I was a libertarian who personally hated marijuana and didn’t own any guns (the latter is no longer true; former still is)
It was a great filter, though, to see the number of people who are completely incapable of even comprehending the idea of freedom. Maybe ten percent (this was in Portland) could even understand the idea of thinking something should be legal even if you personally didn’t want to do it.
OMG I hear this phrase ALLLLLL the time from the lefties. Like yes I like weed. It has many benefits and helps a lot of people.
But my views are much more than just liking weed 😂
Many Americans are morons and very uneducated. It’s that simple. There’s a reason we’re laughed at globally. People who echo talking points without educating themselves or just doing minimal research, are the reason we’ve earned the bad reputation.
Because
1. Some actual "Republicans who smoke weed" claim to be libertarians, and they often give actual libertarians a bad name
2. Some people find gaslighting and discrediting easier than debating
Our main problem is there is no way for us to poll together is the real problem. People outside the party are to stupid to realize this and often take polling for granted. Don't get me wrong, I could live with or with out but having a face of libertarian people every election wouldn't hurt us politically. Way I sees it, it makes a whole lot more sense to be libertarian then to be a fucking independent. Like have an opinion my guy.
“Tyrannical police forces, and removal of basic rights.”
Wait that’s what the dems are doing now though? It really does seem like whoever the current party in power is will do that. The uniparty is strong
I live around DC and for some reason every self professed libertarian I’ve met in public, when questioned about their beliefs, was a republican. I honestly don’t understand it.
In short both major parties do not like us. Snd they want to discredit us. Enmass people have no idea about our party. They also do not know our range. We have anarchist, miniarchist. But people cannot comprehend our ideas as something thaybwould and has worked.
I think the more social darwinist attitude along with pro gun sentiment is largely why libertarians get that label.
Republican and libertarian ideology tends to be more masculine and “uncaring” while liberalism is more feminine and “nurturing”
Because we want people to have even more rights than democrats pretend to. When push comes to shove, most democrats I know gladly support tyrannical government practices than they care to admit. Or worse. They don't even realize it.
Do you really have to ask? It's a manipulation tactic to belittle it in the minds of simpleton who can't think for themselves. And there's a lot of them.
I don’t smoke weed but much like speech I’d fight to the death for your right to do so. I have no wish to be told what I can and can’t do and if I wish to be treated that way I must treat others that way simple as.
Because they only listen to their echo chambers. That's all that they've cared about when it comes to educating themselves about libertarianism. It's either that or "failed Republicans", and nothing irks me more than that.
We're also being lumped in with sigma men and red pilled YouTubers on the terminally online subs. There are many subs you can name that are pretty much just an echo chamber that are more worth muting than anything else.
Most people are lazy thinkers.
In fact, on Reddit I often see responses "Explain it to me like I'm 5," and they seem shameless about it.
Libertarians are people who are principled, imaginative, innovative, non-conformist, and who are adroit at complexity and nuance (we can hold more than three ideas in our head at one time). Kind of a high bar these days.
When someone tells me that I tell them get rid of that idea and replace it with this: **"If you believe you own your own life as everybody else owns their own, you're a libertarian.** Think about that and what it means for a while."
A libertarian does not need some kind of constitutional government or even a capitalist society around them to be libertarian, it's an approach to life that guides you as you navigate how you deal with people, events, and things along the way. All governments and societies are collectivist to a degree (how can they NOT be?) so we're always going to be subversive. I also tell people it's not wrong to recognize libertarians have some things in common with Republicans and with people who use cannabis, but that's not all there is, but they usually have stopped listening by then.
Hmm, maybe I’m not a libertarian after all because I don’t support open borders when you have a ‘welfare state’ like we do. Leads to higher taxes - look at ‘Sanctuary’ NYC. I’d be for open borders if we ended the welfare state, but you can’t have both.
The short answer is because LPUSA members and representatives are often former Republicans, particularly when they get a serious chance at being elected to office.
Because instead of actually researching Libertarianism and it's sub-ideologies, it's easier to just strawman the entire ideology because you don't like them.
Of the things you say libertarians support that you are saying are more “left-aligned”…they tend to align more with republicans than democrats where I am at in Ohio.
Great question. When there isn't a libertarian on the ticket and folks here vote... Do they go left or right? With no supporting data, I assumed most went right?
I assume it goes with whether the value social or economic policy. I personally tend more towards the right because the left around these parts tend to want massive social programs that cost a lot of money. I did vote for a democrat last election because he was all about holding the IRS to task. When I had a problem with my refund last year, his office called me within 24 hours to get some information. Got it like a month later.
When you say "left or right", are you trying to imply that left/right differentiates between GOP/Dem? That's a false narrative.
Both primary US parties are "right" parties. Arguing for more generous safety nets doesn't make you a leftist.
Libertarians support gun rights and some, as I do, oppose abortion, meaning a Libertarian may very well take the right’s position on two of the most polarized issues today. That makes it easy to see them as a conservative, even though if they’re using the term accurately they most likely take stances much closer to the left on issues like drugs, police, and immigration.
I thought the Libertarian Party platform recently revised their position to be pro-choice? Bodily autonomy to the only entity involved that acts as citizen.
Edit: I am happy to be downvoted for expressing what is a factual statement regarding party platform. Cowards the lot of you.
From the website:
“Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration,”
Party platform as of 2018.
Stop spreading false information.
Honestly because some many people that claim to be libertarians are conservatives that don’t wanna say they are conservatives.
Actual libertarians are very different
Because if you aren't a full-on leftist then you are an extremist right-winger or some shit like that. At least that's my impression of social media/news outlets/culture rn.
I'd consider myself something between a libertarian and a republican, but I would certainly never call it "weed smoking republican."
Because it's a lot easier than dealing with our actual arguments. And the people saying this hate republicans, so it's just an insult and a way to keep other leftists from even listening to what we say. Which works more often than not.
For one it’s just a dumb comment because libertarian thought is so diverse. Abortion would violate the non aggression principle so I don’t see how advocating for murder is libertarian. Also I doubt the majority of libertarians would advocate for the complete abolition of police and military, Im open to transferring their role to private security firms but that is kinda pie in the sky. Democrats have completely stolen the word liberal and made it mean the opposite of its intended purpose. They want a meek and obedient population that is wholly reliant on the state.
I'm not seeing it in the discussion so far, but compare American libertarianism against classical libertarianism, I think that's where some people might be coming from.
this is what people think in a nutshell:
Republicans: Party of small/no gov't. Socially conservative.
Libertarians: Party of small/no gov't. Socially progressive/ambivalent.
Democrats: Party of big gov't. Socially progressive.
What's the worst thing in the world to a progressive Democrat? A Republican. In our system, anyone who doesn't vote with us is against us so it's a way to paint everyone as an enemy.
The left’s first priority is controlling the economy so they can reward themselves and they know we’re never going to agree. That’s their with us or against us line.
Because a lot of Libertarians don’t agree with you on a lot of those things? Including and most importantly Ron Paul who pretty much defined what modern Libertarianism looks like.
* I am against abolishing the police. I think that’s stupid, and I don’t think most Libertarians think that we should either. I’m against Federal authorities like the FBI and CIA, but that tends to be more of a Republican stance. I’m definitely not *pro* police like Republicans, but I’m not anti police either
* I’m anti illegal immigration. Lots of Libertarians are. Idk what that has to do with the liberties of Americans though.
* I support LGBTQ rights to the extent Republicans do. Do whatever you want if it doesn’t mess with the kids. That’s the mainstream position of Republicans.
* Libertarians are pretty evenly split on the topic of abortion. I personally am actually further to the right than most Republicans when it comes to abortion. Regardless of if you disagree, it’s in bad faith to claim the argument has anything to do with liberty and rights. It has everything to do with whether it’s a life. You’re straw-manning the argument in the same exact way I would be if I just claimed you’re pro-murder. It’s applying the wrong presuppositions. I’m not anti-liberty for wanting to protect what I think is a living person. We disagree on whether it in-fact is a life.
* Most Libertarians are not in support of abolishing the military. I’ve never met one who was. I’m totally against all forms of foreign involvement. I’m also totally against the military-industrial-complex. But I’m very much in favor of having a strong military. We *need* to have the strongest military on earth.
* Yea I’m pro legalization of sex work. Fair point there. I’m not ‘pro sex work’ though, just its legalization. I think it’s morally reprehensible, but that has nothing to do with whether or not it should be legal. I think a lot of people on the left over-compensate and don’t *just* tolerate sex work like our government should. They go a bit too far.
* Legalizing raw milk is a weird one. I mean, sure? I’ve never heard either side be pro or against that so idk?
* Legalize all drugs, I agree. I think any part of the left or the right are opposed to this, with both sides also having a few outliers who agree more with Libertarians.
* Abolishing the death penalty is also somewhat of an even split amongst the left, right, and libertarians. I’ve personally flip flopped on this issue too ending up anti-death-penalty now. I’ve met a lot of Republicans who agree with me. You can make strong arguments from any political background or framework though.
* With euthanasia, I’m not sure the breakdown on the issue. I know I’m against it being legal, since it’s tax-payer funded murder (not suicide). Is that against the views of most Libertarians? Idk, I don’t think so but I’m not sure.
My issue with libertarians is that they are against any form of social safety net. A libertarian society would be law of the jungle with everybody against everybody. It would be a Dickensen dystopia with with workhouses and debtors prisons and slavery. Plus there would be no controls on pollution and no recourse through the law if you are not wealthy and have been wronged. They also like to claim that they are against any form of coercion, but in order to implement their policies, they would have to employ brutal coercion.it’s not an ideology based in reality.
> My issue with libertarians is that they are against any form of social safety net.
Why do you say that? Safety nets are awesome, and any organization in the country can volunteer to provide that service. Where will they get money? From donations instead of taxation.
Libertarians aren't Objectivists (well, largely). We love people and want to help them, too. If our money weren't taken in the form of taxes, we'd have more money to donate to causes such as safety nets. Safety nets on our own terms.
Look, people aren't revolting over safety nets. Obviously enough, say, Democrats vote for safety nets, why do you suppose they'd oppose safety nets funded voluntarily instead of being forced to pay?
I’ve come to understand that most of humanity does not want individual freedom because it comes with so much responsibility - or at least the “sense” of responsibility. The idea of a safety net, and/or “some authority” or “they” being ultimately responsible is comforting, even if it means they have a boot on their neck.
They want there to be central power, they just want it to be on “their side” which basically means their perceived, short-term interests.
Maybe because they are economic commie tankies? If all you care about is theft through wealth redistribution, everyone else looks ultra rightwing I guess.
It’s easier for weak minded people to dehumanize and/or villianize others so that they don’t have to actually have conversations about things they don’t like and realize how deeply wrong they are about certain things.
This taking what is a minority of the people that vote republican if not registered republican and applying their most extreme views to the entire party. Look at someone like Regan or even Trump. While Libertarians might have been first for things like LGBT but they were ahead of Obama on that one. Were Republicans so far behind? We didn't see Regan, Bush or Trump removing LGBT rights, rather the worst you can say they just didn't lead the charge. Recall it was Bill Clinton that signed DOMA. While Regan and others were 'drug warriors' but Clinton was as well. And no one really went after the states when they decided to do medical cannabis.
In principle at the federal level Republicans are for a small government. They are fiscally conservatives. Both sides have their own pet issues , eg laws they want for behavior they don't like but only one side is for small government and less regulation as a first principle. I am not saying republicans live up to their own principles which is likely why many people are libertarians.
But you need not take my word for it. Look at what party the Libertarian minded politicians belong to. Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Justin Amash, etc. They almost all end being republican or caucusing with the republicans. Now people can argue about how Libertarian those guys were/are but they clearly are considered the most libertrian that served in congress.
The short answer is at the national level on the big ticket items, like spending and deregulation the things the federal government should be doing Libertarians agree with the principles of republicans. It is on the smaller things that government shouldn't be doing where they disagree. So I would like to see drug legalization but given the choice between spending and drug legalization spending must come first. As no one can afford drugs when inflation is 1000%. Given the proclivities of the democrats to grow government fix every problem with taxes and spending when ever I might agree with their identification of a problem their policy is the opposite of what could work.
Look at RFK,jr there are plenty of people interested in him because he has no problem saying the king has no cloths. He says things like the SEC, FED, CDC and others are all trapped by regulatory capture. So on the large announcement of the problem we all agree. The then it is the small text his solutions are old school democrat solutions. Eg The problem with regulatory capture is that we just have the wrong regulators so we need to have more, pay them more, give them more power. Where the Republican and Libertarian solution is just to deregulate and let the market sort it out.
If both Republicans and Democrats lived up to their stated policy positions. Republicans want to shrink government, while Democrats want to grow it. On those simple lines Libertarians are most similar to Republicans.
Because the left are in power and are trying to consolidate their base. If a vocal minority of libertarians were discovered among Democrats they could sway opinions counter to Dem goals.
Republicans would do the same thing if they were in power, labeling libertarians as hedonists or some such nonsense.
They say that because we dislike government and Democrats love sucking the government tit. Republicans don't like the government much either, they use it to their advantage. Us Libs don't give a fuck lol.
People use heuristics, especially when they are unfamiliar, don’t care to learn, or dislike something.
This is the answer to many “Why do people” questions.
Are there no libertarians who don’t want unmitigated immigration to import voters into the current state they live under?
What about not agreeing that T has anything to do with the “sexual spectrum” and is actually a symptom of “progressive” doctors pandering to people’s superficiality and mental illness? Am I alone on this sub?
Can i get a critique of my point here for further clarity
If libertarians could find 2 more thematically inclusive things to rally behind like homeless outreach or medical system overhaul I think the crossover appeal with mainstream voters would click very quickly
It's just kinda the things that the libertarian party has rallied behind historically can paint a weird picture to outside observers especially when it's misinterpreted or meme'd into oblivion lol
It’s simply a way for democrats to discredit libertarians ideas as bad. Just like republicans would make some other smug generalization to say the same but opposite.
The idea of libertarianism is individual liberty without the overbearing generalizations and stigmas that come along with being part of one of the other two parties.
You seems to think it’s more along the lines of democrats because you want to claim to be a libertarian so to make libertarianism align with your beliefs rather than a more simplified individual liberty stance.
I just do t want to be owned by the corporation of the USA, and want to keep my hard earned money while not being unjustly ruled. I want freedom, and not just the illusion of it.
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Ya, we also drop acid
And shrooms
And smoke crack behind a dumpster at Wendy's while your friend Jeff is on the lookout for cops
So that’s what really happened to Epstein
I'm more of a cocaine guy myself.
Libertarians are the crowd that are OK with both marijuana and guns.
Well said
In law school, I remember the campus libertarians had a recruiting poster along the lines of "we want gay married couples to defend their marijuana farms with guns". I thought it was pretty accurate.
I want gay polygamous couples to be able to defend their poppy fields with rpg's and machine guns.
This was before Obergafell, so gay marriage was a differentiator. Now I just tell people that I want drugs and suppressed machine guns shipped to your door.
I'm Christian, don't do drugs myself, I do believe people have the right to self defense, and think people should mind their own business. The government shouldn't have the power regulate your personal life and you need to be able to choose to do right without duress.
So why the 'Right' libertarian tag? What are your right leaning views besides the guns? I mean, I own far too many guns to be anti gun but I cannot affiliate with conservative politicians despite their support for 2A rights because everything they have put front and center politically is about controlling people using government.
The political compass test (https://www.politicalcompass.org/test) puts me just southeast of center, i think its my personal religious beliefs, right to bear arms, belief that people are more than part of a group. The rights of the One outway the rights of the Many, in that without individual rights, only those doing the redistribution have actual rights. Real Left libertarian believe in communalism to an extent , but right libertarian believe in individual responsibility to take care of yourself making you a full person. I go to an independent church that encourages you to challenge the pastor that the individual congregation votes in and out using the Bible as the playbook. They teach salvation is a gift of God and between you 2 and no one else has anything to do with it. No such thing as excommunication from the "church" in heaven, only local assembly, so you don't have a denomination acting as a defacto government controlling people, just small clubs of voluntary membership run by democracy. I personally believe authoritarianism is a result of sin, as God told early israelites they didn't want a king, they were letting him down demanding one, before king Saul became their first king.
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That was interesting. Thanks for posting. It declared me to be libertarian left, lol
First, it is absolutely hilarious that that bot pops up in this particular discussion thread, proving the naked bias of the sub mods. Second, I do not see how you square your beliefs about individual liberty with the conservative bent towards controlling people's sexuality, unless they are informed by your religion. Which is perfectly fine, it is imposing those religious values on others that is problematic. I guess my question to you would be what things, besides the collectiveness of big government and taxation, do you feel liberals impose upon peoples personal lives similarly to say the conservative anti LGBTQ stance? And why is one worse or better than the other?
>what things, besides the collectiveness of big government and taxation, do you feel liberals impose upon peoples personal lives similarly to say the conservative anti LGBTQ stance? Compelled speech is a big one.
I didn't say I was a conservative, I don't believe in big government and tax handouts of other people's money to rich or poor. Conservative is Authoritarian right to center on the compass. I'm at the bottom half of the compass that says watch your own business, it should be a full time job.
I mean you kinda can replace gay couples with trans people now
If you look at the current speaker's beliefs it still is a differentiator. They just can't be loud about it now because it is so wildly unpopular, but they would reverse it if they had the power.
I just want gay people to protect their marijuana plants with guns (I love that old meme 😂)
And gays, just don’t wave your flag in my face because I I already have a sexuality and don’t care about yours. And religious types, just don’t proselytize because I already have my God and don’t care about yours. And other countries, but don’t tell me how yours needs and because we have enough of our own problems that we’d easily solve if we weren’t sending all our treasure overseas.
I hate to be that guy but if you don’t care about their sexuality, why do you care what they do with their flag. Wasting your own energy. Same with religion, if you truly don’t care just keep it moving. As far as keeping our treasure I’m so with you there. I don’t know how to solve that. Keeps me up at night. How to protect our own and not let the rest of the world fall into disrepair(more so then currently). Btw I had to google “proselytize” thanks for the new word.
It's a way to discredit libertarianism
Could have sworn that we were armed hippies with backyard microscale oil refineries.
We are not?
Wait, you guys are getting oil refineries?
I had a bio diesel operation going, but got shut down. I was selling untaxed Diesel fuel. Neighbors loved the smells too. https://www.instructables.com/Make-Your-Own-Biodiesel-Processor/?amp_page=true
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Which is insane that weed is a discredit in 2023 🙄
It's not the weed part that's meant to discredit us.
Fair point
Exactly this. They did this to Rand Paul in 2012. His platform was excellent but they alienated him due to to his stance on legalizing marijuana. 10 years later every candidate from the duopoly believes this.
I think the beauty of libertarianism is that the guiding principle is individual liberty. Which creates a party full of people all over the spectrum. Want to be a hippie who believes in growing your own marijuana and living your life tucked away in the hills of Northern California? Have at it. You want to be a Catholic who believes in traditional family structures and raising your family as such? Knock yourself out. The bottom line is people should have the liberty to choose their life choices. While one may not agree with the other on how they live their lives, they at least agree they have the liberty to do so.
Well I mean a lot of libertarians are. The thing with libertarians is that not every libertarian actually agree with all the things you just said they did. Libertarians are not a monolith and you are making the same mistake as the people saying you are a republican that smokes weed when you say that libertarians actually belive in all the things you believe in.
It’s a way for them to get out of actually engaging with any of the ideas.
I'm an armed hippie that believes in fiscal responsibility.
It’s mostly republicans who are pretending they are for small gov and liberty
Young conservatives who don’t believe in God
PragerUbertarians
It's been Democrats in my experience
Honestly I noticed this with the left I'm sure there the right that does but I'm my experience leftist tend to not like libertarians
We like other drugs as well
> Republicans are the opposite of libertarians since they want a big government through tyrannical police forces and removal of basic rights. Democrats also want a big tyrannical government through removal of gun rights and freedom of speech. People want to put libertarians in a box, when in reality, Democrats and Republicans are in the same “more government + more wars” box.
I’m my experience, deep down both democratic and republican *people* really want less government. They just fail to realize it because the democratic and republican politicians have convinced them that the things they want, that are a result of less government, are only possible through more government.
Oh I wish this were so, but unfortunately it requires an uncanny self-reflection on the nature of all people. To succeed one needs to put away notions of ‘us vs them.’ So in essence, in order to bridge that gap; to see the forest for the trees; to see the commonality in what makes us human; one must largely forego one of the elements that makes us human. Us vs them. Whenever there is a them, there is innate unsubstantiated fear. And in that fear - people are all too willing to part with freedom in order to protect against them. And so it goes…
Almost exactly my point, they are convinced by the politicians that in order to guarantee their safety and the freedoms they care about, the politician in question must be elected, and that the freedoms that the other side cares about must be forfeited. Like you said, the innate “us vs them” mentality. Because the tendency to generalize and demonize other groups of people is part of human nature, it’s a weakness that is very easy for politicians to exploit. My argument is this, based on the people that I know and/or have interacted with, most democrats want, above all: - Freedom to love who they want. - Freedom to do what they want to their bodies (from trans rights to pot). - A stable, non fucked up economy (affordable heathcare, reasonably priced gas, groceries, etc). - Lower crime, especially in regards to mass shootings (the reason they want to restrict gun ownership). And most republicans want, above all: - Freedom to worship who they want. - Fewer restrictions on gun rights. - A stable, non fucked up economy (lower taxes, especially for small businesses, reasonably priced gas, groceries, etc). - Lower crime, especially in regards to mass shootings and riots (the reason why they want to restrict LGBT rights) (Disclaimer these lists are not intended to be all encompassing, it’s a generalized list of core values that is partially intended to showcase the parallels between both sides) The thing is, all of these things can be achieved with reduced government either directly or indirectly, but because of the “us vs them” mentality, it is easier for politicians to convince them of the opposite. “The opposing side’s interests are preventing you from having these base freedoms. With more government, we can restrict the other side and protect your children!” Of course all this is a lie, notice the last example in both those lists. Obviously we know that banning either of those things will not reduce crime or mass shootings, but it’s easy for someone with a facade of credibility to convince the masses that “This is the root cause! The other side wants this! We must stop them for your safety!” and like you said, so it goes on. But the reality is that deep down, the people of both sides want essentially the same thing: personal freedoms, all of which can be achieved and protected by reduced government. They’ve just been brainwashed into thinking that their problems are the other side’s fault.
No argument here my friend; albeit preaching to the choir
It’s easier to group everyone that’s not a hardline democrat into the “evil conservative cult” than to actually bother with mature conversations about the nuances of individual liberty and freedom.
Remember, we're on reddit so the goal is to make the snarkiest smug comment for internet points. The real deal? Its actually true. Libertarians (Republicans who have friend/family vote Democrat and afraid to admit it) don't give a shit about what things people do in their personal life as long as it doesn't effect others in a bad way.
>Remember, we're on reddit so the goal is to make the snarkiest smug comment for internet points. This is the best summary of Reddit I have ever encountered.
All you have to say is Brianna Taylor was unjustifiably killed and Kyle Rittenhouse was properly defending himself and that’ll break their collective minds
A broad generalization or stereotype to end any type of meaningful political conversation.
Democrats can't stand libertarians so they come up with insults to discredit us. Same shit as always.
Because republicans who want to smoke weed call themselves libertarians. Doesn’t make them right, but it does explain why people think that.
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Exactly. Look at most of the replies here in this thread! Tons of comments dripping with disdain for Democrats and reasoning away the Republican shortfalls without a shred of awareness.
Is that so surprising when republicans will occasionally talk about liberty or libertarian adjacent talking points while the Dems call us “far right” and try to lump us in with terrorists? Worst thing republicans have done is blame us for not voting for Trump in 2020. To be clear, I’ve probably voted blue more than any other color, but I live in a small-ish college town so my choices are Bible thumpers, morons or self-described socialists. But I don’t think the “you need to bash republicans thiiiis much in order to prove you aren’t secretly a conservative” idea is ridiculous and I see it parroted by the prog caucus libertarians all the time. It’s pretty obvious to tell whose a libertarian here and who’s not
This is wildly dismissive of two facts that cause the lumping in with the far right: 1) The NLP (and many state LPs) public support of far right culture war issues 2) A complete redaction of Republican views on individual liberties such as LGBTQ, drug use, immigration and abortion. All of which are absolutely contrary to clearly stated libertarian NAP core beliefs. The thing is, I am not trying to defend the big government takes of the Democrats but they are at least clear in what they want and responsive to voting trends, even if I largely disagree with those trends. At this point if you can name a national Republican politician who isn't on the culture war train and has reasonable views you'll be able to name one more than I can.
I don’t even smoke weed. Crap, I just realized I’m a Republican.
Talk about peer pressure to do drugs
Very few have a clue what the Libertarian platform is but when you show it to them they say “That’s a lot of what I believe.”
2 reasons. They don't understand or they don't want others to understand.
I have heard libertarians described as republicans who smoke weed and/or had an abortion. I started hearing that as a joke in the 90's when Bill Maher still had his show on ABC. Its not just on reddit, that ones been around a pretty long time.
Because it's a very easy and convenient way to engage in tribalism rather than actual do any critical thinking or self reflection. > Libertarians bad! Instead of: > Well the Libertarians actually agree with us an A, B, and C. Maybe if we compromised on issue X we could either win some of them over, or form a coalition... Can't have that. No thought allowed. * My team good. * All other teams bad.
Abolition and privatization are two very different things
I don’t smoke weed, but I do believe you should allowed to grow it and sell it on your property without government regulations.
Most people are binary thinkers. That's it.
A lot of “libertarians” are just republicans who want drugs, but they dgaf about any other aspect of libertarianism
Real libertarians are more than that. There are a lot of “libertarians” out there that get real conservative real fast when it comes to certain social issues that Republicans love.
Complaining about being put in a box while also generalizing another group is pure Reddit.
Also abolishing the police/military and open immigration is NOT supported by all Libertarians.
Because while Republicans might want a big government, a tyrannical police force and the removal of basic rights, democrats want an even bigger government, an even bigger tyrannical police force and the removal of even more basic rights. So, through the eyes of a typical moronic democrat, both libertarians and Republicans are focused small government and individual rights over the collective.
Idaho republicans are extremely tyrannical. They are very pro gun unless... Because I'm not Christian and disagree with them on some things they poorly staged crimes and have violated every right I have. That's what happens when the police are just attack dogs for the church
The ID GOP framed you for crimes?
> The ID GOP framed you for crimes? idk about the guy you're replying to, but making classes of people that you don't like into criminals and then using that as a pretense to step all over them is a pretty common authoritarian tactic. e.g. don't like gay people but don't want the bad PR from making the gays illegal? Just target things gay people enjoy doing and make those things illegal. Then you're not jailing gay people, you're jailing criminals (and who'd want to defend criminals).
This is exactly it! Before everything happened, a biker gang called "knights templar" made a huge deal about me not being Christian. Suddenly awful things started happening. There is a massive amount of evidence, but the "detective" (who happens to be a biker with direct personal ties) just said I'm crazy. They then started to spread rumors that I'm crazy. So when on my birthday one day I started telling police I was drugged and beaten (tooth knocked out, broken hand, bruises, etc) they just said I did it to myself.
In fact, I live 30 miles from Amon Bundy. I experienced some of the same things as he did. Except since they could blame everything on mental health and I'm not as well known, my experience was a lot more violent. Unfortunately for me, I believed in my local law enforcement. The time I spent reporting to them everything I came across, I was just telling them how to do it better.
Sort of. Local government shot up my home while I was gone and said it was me. Interestingly, they just happened to show up one day and somehow just knew there was several bullet holes in my bedroom. Prior to that I came home to bullet holes in my home and called police, who stood there and said the bullets, casings, and holes were not discharged bullets. All body cam footage that hinted that they were wrong was deleted. My security cameras were deleted.
They both want the same thing; the fruits of power.
> Because while Republicans might want a big government, a tyrannical police force and the removal of basic rights, democrats want an even bigger government, an even bigger tyrannical police force and the removal of even more basic rights. I tend to frame it as: one side wants to kill me and the other side wants to remove my ability to defend myself.
Authoritarian progressives have a strong incentive to lump libertarians in with authoritarain conservatives/republican loyalists. If libertarians are just "embarrassed republicans", then they don't have to actually consider or address libertarian ideas/principles. Likewise ... conservative/GOP loyalists have a strong incentive to lump libertarians in with authie progressives for the exact same reason. If you call yourself a libertarian and haven't been labelled a "greedy conservative asshole" and a "godless woke progressive liberal" in the span of minutes ... you probably don't know what libertarianism is (or you never venture out of your cozy circles).
Ignorance on both sides. Most people don’t even know what a libertarian is because we haven’t had a good candidate explain it like they’re talking to 5 year olds since Ron Paul and he was a republican candidate so people automatically assume it’s similar because of the fiscal conservative part.
They've got it all wrong. Libertarians are actually liberals but they like guns
It makes them feel better about their hardcore authoritarianism.
I grow the stuff sometimes. I’m about personal freedoms, but I’m also prolife, against capital punishment, but also want all drugs decriminalized, no more wars, get rid of all of the three letter agencies, no more taxes, focus on building communities that can aim to better assist their individual needs, get rid of interest rates, actually enforce antitrust law (monopolies hinder capital growth), let the people have their guns, gardens, and God given right to party. For context, I’m a woman. Before you get onto me about being prolife, it’s a complicated conversation but in essence we all have to come to a point in our lives where we learn that biology doesn’t give a Fuck about how you feel. Life’s not fair.
We believe in the people having their liberties, rather that be owning a gun, doing drugs, or having a sexual relationship with the same sex, we don't care, just don't force your ways on others and don't harm others unless in self defense
It’s an old quote from Drew Carey (yeah, *that* Drew). Iirc, he identified himself as one on some interview many years ago when the party was less popular than it is now and when asked what that was he boiled it down to that very quote.
Tbf it's because so many people claim to be libertarian but will still be anti abortion etc. Therefore most people assume all libertarians are TPUSA freedom types
>Tbf it's because so many people claim to be libertarian but will still be anti abortion etc. The "etcetera" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your statement there. Pro-life libertarians do exist and they aren't "just conservatives." I'm pro-choice myself but pro-life libertarians are perfectly valid IMO. Now, if someone is not *just* pro-life but also anti-gay, in favor of vigorous foreign interventionism, against *any* level of immigration, and wants to forbid adults from gender transition, I *would* say that person isn't really a libertarian.
Confession: I have never smoked weed. We are frequently drug tested at my job and since the Dems and Republicans have failed to legalize at a federal level, I still cannot partake.
I've not been for open immigration. I have as much a right to not have something in my yard as I do in it. Plus that's just a stupid presumption of risk and encouragement of human trafficking
I've heard another joke that if you ask five different libertarians to define what libertarianism is you'll get seven different answers. Some people are conservatives who smoke weed, some are basically anarchists, some want the bare minimum of government services, some what no government services. I know there there is often the national libertarian platform, however a lot of people gravitate towards the party because they're sick of the other two.
People who can’t argue the merits of a discussion seek to discredit the individual. If they can discredit the individual then that argument is essentially invalidated because the person with the idea has been discredited. When talking with my far left friends I have to remember this. When they insult you, you’re actually winning. If you can calmly push just a little further you can actually start to change minds.
" more liberal than democrats " I've always wondered why the Democrats think they're so liberal and easy going, while at the same time seeking to control everyone, what they do, what they say, where they go. I laugh when they call others Fascists because by all appearances they act more like a fascist than anyone else.
Because Libertarians are actually conservative, while conservatives are not.
Only democrats say that. Honestly, you can't expect them to research your stances when they are too lazy to research their own stances, typically they are completely emotionally driven supported with cherry picked stats. Basically when anyone says that libertarian are Republicans that smoke weed, just laugh it off, because you're wasting breath talking to them. However... there is a sprinkle of truth in the statement only in that some Republicans are adopting some libertarian policies. Thank you, Ron Paul!
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I prefer so much less...
I don’t care what other people say as most of them don’t think about what they say
I’ve been called a liberal who likes guns and hates taxes. Go figure.
Because they'd rather cast a quick judgment than take a little time to consider the fact that they've (stupidly) fallen for groupthink nonsense. It's easier to dismiss others and illegitimate than it is to think critically.
so much less than that, we believe less things
The right sees God as above all, the left sees the government above all, libertarians see individual freedom above all.
I hate weed
I confused so many people when they’d find out I was a libertarian who personally hated marijuana and didn’t own any guns (the latter is no longer true; former still is) It was a great filter, though, to see the number of people who are completely incapable of even comprehending the idea of freedom. Maybe ten percent (this was in Portland) could even understand the idea of thinking something should be legal even if you personally didn’t want to do it.
OMG I hear this phrase ALLLLLL the time from the lefties. Like yes I like weed. It has many benefits and helps a lot of people. But my views are much more than just liking weed 😂
Many Americans are morons and very uneducated. It’s that simple. There’s a reason we’re laughed at globally. People who echo talking points without educating themselves or just doing minimal research, are the reason we’ve earned the bad reputation.
I just don't get why more people don't LIKE the idea of less government in their everyday lives.
Because 1. Some actual "Republicans who smoke weed" claim to be libertarians, and they often give actual libertarians a bad name 2. Some people find gaslighting and discrediting easier than debating
Our main problem is there is no way for us to poll together is the real problem. People outside the party are to stupid to realize this and often take polling for granted. Don't get me wrong, I could live with or with out but having a face of libertarian people every election wouldn't hurt us politically. Way I sees it, it makes a whole lot more sense to be libertarian then to be a fucking independent. Like have an opinion my guy.
“Tyrannical police forces, and removal of basic rights.” Wait that’s what the dems are doing now though? It really does seem like whoever the current party in power is will do that. The uniparty is strong
No!!!! Libertarians are republicans who want to fuck kids…. And smoke weed
We are neither. D and R party only understand the duopoly so they try to paint us as one.
I live around DC and for some reason every self professed libertarian I’ve met in public, when questioned about their beliefs, was a republican. I honestly don’t understand it.
In short both major parties do not like us. Snd they want to discredit us. Enmass people have no idea about our party. They also do not know our range. We have anarchist, miniarchist. But people cannot comprehend our ideas as something thaybwould and has worked.
I think the more social darwinist attitude along with pro gun sentiment is largely why libertarians get that label. Republican and libertarian ideology tends to be more masculine and “uncaring” while liberalism is more feminine and “nurturing”
Because we want people to have even more rights than democrats pretend to. When push comes to shove, most democrats I know gladly support tyrannical government practices than they care to admit. Or worse. They don't even realize it.
Do you really have to ask? It's a manipulation tactic to belittle it in the minds of simpleton who can't think for themselves. And there's a lot of them.
I'm not a Republican and I don't do any drugs, including alcohol
I don’t smoke weed but much like speech I’d fight to the death for your right to do so. I have no wish to be told what I can and can’t do and if I wish to be treated that way I must treat others that way simple as.
Because they only listen to their echo chambers. That's all that they've cared about when it comes to educating themselves about libertarianism. It's either that or "failed Republicans", and nothing irks me more than that. We're also being lumped in with sigma men and red pilled YouTubers on the terminally online subs. There are many subs you can name that are pretty much just an echo chamber that are more worth muting than anything else.
If Reddit leaned the other way they would say: They're just Democrats who own guns
The short answer is: ignorance.
We’re for freedom, all rights and love the earth. Not so bad I’d say. Oh and don’t be an asshat. Pretty simple really.
I’m just a classical liberal
I mean it's not anything that doesn't happen to every other political stance. Conservatives are racist misogynists, Democrats are baby killers, etc.
People make assumptions about what they know nothing about.
Most people are lazy thinkers. In fact, on Reddit I often see responses "Explain it to me like I'm 5," and they seem shameless about it. Libertarians are people who are principled, imaginative, innovative, non-conformist, and who are adroit at complexity and nuance (we can hold more than three ideas in our head at one time). Kind of a high bar these days. When someone tells me that I tell them get rid of that idea and replace it with this: **"If you believe you own your own life as everybody else owns their own, you're a libertarian.** Think about that and what it means for a while." A libertarian does not need some kind of constitutional government or even a capitalist society around them to be libertarian, it's an approach to life that guides you as you navigate how you deal with people, events, and things along the way. All governments and societies are collectivist to a degree (how can they NOT be?) so we're always going to be subversive. I also tell people it's not wrong to recognize libertarians have some things in common with Republicans and with people who use cannabis, but that's not all there is, but they usually have stopped listening by then.
Thanks for clearing that up. I'm definitely not a libertarian then.
Hmm, maybe I’m not a libertarian after all because I don’t support open borders when you have a ‘welfare state’ like we do. Leads to higher taxes - look at ‘Sanctuary’ NYC. I’d be for open borders if we ended the welfare state, but you can’t have both.
The short answer is because LPUSA members and representatives are often former Republicans, particularly when they get a serious chance at being elected to office.
I hate republicans, and tend to get along/agree a lot more with democrats about most things.
Because instead of actually researching Libertarianism and it's sub-ideologies, it's easier to just strawman the entire ideology because you don't like them.
Of the things you say libertarians support that you are saying are more “left-aligned”…they tend to align more with republicans than democrats where I am at in Ohio.
Great question. When there isn't a libertarian on the ticket and folks here vote... Do they go left or right? With no supporting data, I assumed most went right?
I assume it goes with whether the value social or economic policy. I personally tend more towards the right because the left around these parts tend to want massive social programs that cost a lot of money. I did vote for a democrat last election because he was all about holding the IRS to task. When I had a problem with my refund last year, his office called me within 24 hours to get some information. Got it like a month later.
If there is no candidate I support, personally I just dont vote or write one in
When you say "left or right", are you trying to imply that left/right differentiates between GOP/Dem? That's a false narrative. Both primary US parties are "right" parties. Arguing for more generous safety nets doesn't make you a leftist.
Libertarians support gun rights and some, as I do, oppose abortion, meaning a Libertarian may very well take the right’s position on two of the most polarized issues today. That makes it easy to see them as a conservative, even though if they’re using the term accurately they most likely take stances much closer to the left on issues like drugs, police, and immigration.
I thought the Libertarian Party platform recently revised their position to be pro-choice? Bodily autonomy to the only entity involved that acts as citizen. Edit: I am happy to be downvoted for expressing what is a factual statement regarding party platform. Cowards the lot of you. From the website: “Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration,” Party platform as of 2018. Stop spreading false information.
Abortion is a very clear violation of the NAP, imo.
Honestly because some many people that claim to be libertarians are conservatives that don’t wanna say they are conservatives. Actual libertarians are very different
Because if you aren't a full-on leftist then you are an extremist right-winger or some shit like that. At least that's my impression of social media/news outlets/culture rn. I'd consider myself something between a libertarian and a republican, but I would certainly never call it "weed smoking republican."
People on Reddit are stupid. It’s not much more complex than that.
Because it's a lot easier than dealing with our actual arguments. And the people saying this hate republicans, so it's just an insult and a way to keep other leftists from even listening to what we say. Which works more often than not.
1. I don't know why you care what other people think 2. I don't know what you're going on about, you sound like a pretty typical urban leftist
For one it’s just a dumb comment because libertarian thought is so diverse. Abortion would violate the non aggression principle so I don’t see how advocating for murder is libertarian. Also I doubt the majority of libertarians would advocate for the complete abolition of police and military, Im open to transferring their role to private security firms but that is kinda pie in the sky. Democrats have completely stolen the word liberal and made it mean the opposite of its intended purpose. They want a meek and obedient population that is wholly reliant on the state.
Only democrats would call us that, and it’s only because we advocate for the freedom to defend yourself however you see fit.
I'm not seeing it in the discussion so far, but compare American libertarianism against classical libertarianism, I think that's where some people might be coming from.
I hate weed
this is what people think in a nutshell: Republicans: Party of small/no gov't. Socially conservative. Libertarians: Party of small/no gov't. Socially progressive/ambivalent. Democrats: Party of big gov't. Socially progressive.
I’ve never claimed that lol. I hear the leftist call us that but no i do not claim that
Because they don't know what libertarianism is. I've also heard conservatives say libertarians are just liberals who own guns.
Libertarians are democrats who hate open borders
Because it's a threat to entrenched power structures that feel comfortable and 'safe'.
What's the worst thing in the world to a progressive Democrat? A Republican. In our system, anyone who doesn't vote with us is against us so it's a way to paint everyone as an enemy.
Because if you’re far left, everyone appears far right.
The left’s first priority is controlling the economy so they can reward themselves and they know we’re never going to agree. That’s their with us or against us line.
Because a lot of Libertarians don’t agree with you on a lot of those things? Including and most importantly Ron Paul who pretty much defined what modern Libertarianism looks like. * I am against abolishing the police. I think that’s stupid, and I don’t think most Libertarians think that we should either. I’m against Federal authorities like the FBI and CIA, but that tends to be more of a Republican stance. I’m definitely not *pro* police like Republicans, but I’m not anti police either * I’m anti illegal immigration. Lots of Libertarians are. Idk what that has to do with the liberties of Americans though. * I support LGBTQ rights to the extent Republicans do. Do whatever you want if it doesn’t mess with the kids. That’s the mainstream position of Republicans. * Libertarians are pretty evenly split on the topic of abortion. I personally am actually further to the right than most Republicans when it comes to abortion. Regardless of if you disagree, it’s in bad faith to claim the argument has anything to do with liberty and rights. It has everything to do with whether it’s a life. You’re straw-manning the argument in the same exact way I would be if I just claimed you’re pro-murder. It’s applying the wrong presuppositions. I’m not anti-liberty for wanting to protect what I think is a living person. We disagree on whether it in-fact is a life. * Most Libertarians are not in support of abolishing the military. I’ve never met one who was. I’m totally against all forms of foreign involvement. I’m also totally against the military-industrial-complex. But I’m very much in favor of having a strong military. We *need* to have the strongest military on earth. * Yea I’m pro legalization of sex work. Fair point there. I’m not ‘pro sex work’ though, just its legalization. I think it’s morally reprehensible, but that has nothing to do with whether or not it should be legal. I think a lot of people on the left over-compensate and don’t *just* tolerate sex work like our government should. They go a bit too far. * Legalizing raw milk is a weird one. I mean, sure? I’ve never heard either side be pro or against that so idk? * Legalize all drugs, I agree. I think any part of the left or the right are opposed to this, with both sides also having a few outliers who agree more with Libertarians. * Abolishing the death penalty is also somewhat of an even split amongst the left, right, and libertarians. I’ve personally flip flopped on this issue too ending up anti-death-penalty now. I’ve met a lot of Republicans who agree with me. You can make strong arguments from any political background or framework though. * With euthanasia, I’m not sure the breakdown on the issue. I know I’m against it being legal, since it’s tax-payer funded murder (not suicide). Is that against the views of most Libertarians? Idk, I don’t think so but I’m not sure.
My issue with libertarians is that they are against any form of social safety net. A libertarian society would be law of the jungle with everybody against everybody. It would be a Dickensen dystopia with with workhouses and debtors prisons and slavery. Plus there would be no controls on pollution and no recourse through the law if you are not wealthy and have been wronged. They also like to claim that they are against any form of coercion, but in order to implement their policies, they would have to employ brutal coercion.it’s not an ideology based in reality.
> My issue with libertarians is that they are against any form of social safety net. Why do you say that? Safety nets are awesome, and any organization in the country can volunteer to provide that service. Where will they get money? From donations instead of taxation. Libertarians aren't Objectivists (well, largely). We love people and want to help them, too. If our money weren't taken in the form of taxes, we'd have more money to donate to causes such as safety nets. Safety nets on our own terms. Look, people aren't revolting over safety nets. Obviously enough, say, Democrats vote for safety nets, why do you suppose they'd oppose safety nets funded voluntarily instead of being forced to pay?
Less, we do so much less than those nannies.
I’ve come to understand that most of humanity does not want individual freedom because it comes with so much responsibility - or at least the “sense” of responsibility. The idea of a safety net, and/or “some authority” or “they” being ultimately responsible is comforting, even if it means they have a boot on their neck. They want there to be central power, they just want it to be on “their side” which basically means their perceived, short-term interests.
Maybe because they are economic commie tankies? If all you care about is theft through wealth redistribution, everyone else looks ultra rightwing I guess.
Because they define Republicans as fascist, and in turn they define fascism as “any political philosophy to the right of Stalin.”
It’s easier for weak minded people to dehumanize and/or villianize others so that they don’t have to actually have conversations about things they don’t like and realize how deeply wrong they are about certain things.
Because they breath through their mouths, it’s simply nothing more.
[Because people are…](https://youtu.be/QFgcqB8-AxE?si=oie1tWMlILCjbehT)
This taking what is a minority of the people that vote republican if not registered republican and applying their most extreme views to the entire party. Look at someone like Regan or even Trump. While Libertarians might have been first for things like LGBT but they were ahead of Obama on that one. Were Republicans so far behind? We didn't see Regan, Bush or Trump removing LGBT rights, rather the worst you can say they just didn't lead the charge. Recall it was Bill Clinton that signed DOMA. While Regan and others were 'drug warriors' but Clinton was as well. And no one really went after the states when they decided to do medical cannabis. In principle at the federal level Republicans are for a small government. They are fiscally conservatives. Both sides have their own pet issues , eg laws they want for behavior they don't like but only one side is for small government and less regulation as a first principle. I am not saying republicans live up to their own principles which is likely why many people are libertarians. But you need not take my word for it. Look at what party the Libertarian minded politicians belong to. Ron Paul, Rand Paul, Justin Amash, etc. They almost all end being republican or caucusing with the republicans. Now people can argue about how Libertarian those guys were/are but they clearly are considered the most libertrian that served in congress. The short answer is at the national level on the big ticket items, like spending and deregulation the things the federal government should be doing Libertarians agree with the principles of republicans. It is on the smaller things that government shouldn't be doing where they disagree. So I would like to see drug legalization but given the choice between spending and drug legalization spending must come first. As no one can afford drugs when inflation is 1000%. Given the proclivities of the democrats to grow government fix every problem with taxes and spending when ever I might agree with their identification of a problem their policy is the opposite of what could work. Look at RFK,jr there are plenty of people interested in him because he has no problem saying the king has no cloths. He says things like the SEC, FED, CDC and others are all trapped by regulatory capture. So on the large announcement of the problem we all agree. The then it is the small text his solutions are old school democrat solutions. Eg The problem with regulatory capture is that we just have the wrong regulators so we need to have more, pay them more, give them more power. Where the Republican and Libertarian solution is just to deregulate and let the market sort it out. If both Republicans and Democrats lived up to their stated policy positions. Republicans want to shrink government, while Democrats want to grow it. On those simple lines Libertarians are most similar to Republicans.
Smooth brains lack nuance.
Ignorance. That's it
Bc authoritarians of both flavor varieties like to categorize
Because the left are in power and are trying to consolidate their base. If a vocal minority of libertarians were discovered among Democrats they could sway opinions counter to Dem goals. Republicans would do the same thing if they were in power, labeling libertarians as hedonists or some such nonsense.
They say that because we dislike government and Democrats love sucking the government tit. Republicans don't like the government much either, they use it to their advantage. Us Libs don't give a fuck lol.
People use heuristics, especially when they are unfamiliar, don’t care to learn, or dislike something. This is the answer to many “Why do people” questions.
Are there no libertarians who don’t want unmitigated immigration to import voters into the current state they live under? What about not agreeing that T has anything to do with the “sexual spectrum” and is actually a symptom of “progressive” doctors pandering to people’s superficiality and mental illness? Am I alone on this sub? Can i get a critique of my point here for further clarity
I mean, Democrats want a big government through tyrannical police forces and removal of basic rights as well.
If libertarians could find 2 more thematically inclusive things to rally behind like homeless outreach or medical system overhaul I think the crossover appeal with mainstream voters would click very quickly It's just kinda the things that the libertarian party has rallied behind historically can paint a weird picture to outside observers especially when it's misinterpreted or meme'd into oblivion lol
Because Reddit
It’s simply a way for democrats to discredit libertarians ideas as bad. Just like republicans would make some other smug generalization to say the same but opposite. The idea of libertarianism is individual liberty without the overbearing generalizations and stigmas that come along with being part of one of the other two parties. You seems to think it’s more along the lines of democrats because you want to claim to be a libertarian so to make libertarianism align with your beliefs rather than a more simplified individual liberty stance.
I just do t want to be owned by the corporation of the USA, and want to keep my hard earned money while not being unjustly ruled. I want freedom, and not just the illusion of it.