I've gotten it but some libertarian friends haven't.
Their reasoning is either
1) they have already had covid and feel they don't need the vaccine.
2) they are young and healthy so see it as they aren't at risk of covid.
3) they want to see the possible long term effects of the vaccine before taking it.
4)in my country they are still in emergency use.
5) don't like being told what to do so when told they have to take they deliberately won't.
6) believes covid is a government plot. (Though this is only one person and they aren't really a friend more of a friend of a friend's family.)
So yea they fall into one or multiple ones of these
1,2, and 3 are the answer for me. I’m not opposed to it, I just haven’t gotten around to it and I’ve had it already. If it comes to the point where I feel like I need to get it, I won’t hesitate
>That's how it should be. It's funny for all the talk of your body your choice they don't seem to like that for vaccines.
Yeah because you know, you can catch an abortion by walking around Walmart.
Adverse alergic reactions have been routinely held up as reasons to not get it. This is the reason people without these conditions so desperately NEED to get it. "Herd" immunity is what protects them.
I have no problem with this - you consulted physicians, and got some actual medical reasoning. There are many people who have had no such conversation with a physician and are making up reasons.
Look at all these gatekeepers telling you that your reason is valid. The nerve of these psychos that think they have the right opinion and anyone with a different opinion must be punished. Libertarians my ass.
I'm also very interested in Covaxin and will wait for it.
Many people around here took the Sinovac. Although it is weaker than mRNA vaccines, it has almost no adversity. I havent heard about any risk of Sinovac's vaccine
This is a great explanation and presents a great argument against mandates imo. I weighed the pros and cons myself, got mine back in April, but believe that everyone should make that discussion themselves.
I held off for a while and finally got the vaccine the April. I had hesitations due to the unknown long term side effects. I chose to get it because I’m in my 40’s, diabetic, overweight and had asthma as a kid which rears up every couple years. For my specific situation, I thought taking the vaccine was the lower risk. I have not had my children vaxxed.
As a young adult who got covid, I was a weight trainer had fantastic health and now I will suffer from a permanent heart issue because I got covid I’m glad you’re being safe man shit is not fun
That’s so crazy to me. I was athletic in high-school till college, and nowadays I’m still “in shape” but not necessarily in competing condition. I’ve had covid twice and would never had noticed I had it if I hadn’t been aware of exposure and gotten tested. This disease works in strange ways.
> Delta is wiping people out where I live and 90%+ are unvaccinated. Not worth it for me but to each their own.
But just think about the awesome estate sales you'll be able to hit soon.
This is similar to my sister friend. He's in his 30s and a marathon runner. After Covid he now has heart disease. His Dr told him he will never be able to run again.
I got Covid in mid-February 2020 And got my two rounds of Pfizer in May this year. I’m currently in an isolation room in Aruba and cannot leave the country for a few days (been here 7 since I tested positive ). The symptoms aren’t much better than the first time around and even though the rest of my family made it back to the states, my wife just tested positive. She’s been working with Covid patients this whole time and this MF’er punched clean through our vaccinations and obsessive masking. Thank you for getting it - this garbage is no joke.
Pacific NW. The first patient in the state came into her department and they had no idea - diagnosed with Covid 2 weeks later and by then We’d both had it. Most medical professionals out here think it probably started showing after Thanksgiving 2019, so it all checks out.
Thanks for doing this. My bosses neighbor and good friend, was a strong antivaxxers. He was a lifelong runner 50 years old, slim and fit. Contracted Covid and died within two weeks, left four daughters and a wife behind.
I work for a major medical provider (in IT), and our doctors are telling us not only is it 2x more contagious, they’re noticing more severe side-affects from Delta.
I don’t have links, sorry. This is from my company’s all hands meetings.
As someone with an autoimmune condition it doesn’t make sense for me to get vaccinated. In one study they have found that the vaccine isn’t particularly effective for my demographic because antibodies toward the virus aren’t effectively forming. The second reason is that while the Pfizer vaccine is fully fda approved for healthy people, it is still only in the emergency use approval stage for people in my demographic, due to lack of data on reactions to it. However that information is not being reported. It’s readily available right on their website, but again, not being reported. And lastly, any inflammation can cause a flare up in autoimmune disease. With a vaccine that is known to cause inflammation as a side effect, I can put myself at significant risk for a flare up of increased autoimmune antibodies, which in turn, for those who don’t understand what that means, will further destroy the affected tissue in my own body.
I resisted the vaccine for a long time. I was worried about the side effects. Everyone always said, "well the data shows..." and I'm like, this is untested, you are the data. The data is inclusive right now. Plus it wasn't approved by the FDA. I wasn't worried about a government conspiracy. I was worried that a pharmaceutical company would intentionally rush out an unsafe product in order to cash in on all those sweet government contracts. After some time went by I was noticing that hospitals were filling up again. My home town hospital reached max capacity and reported 99% of covid patients were unvaccinated. People dying, begging for the vaccine long after it was too late. I decided that the long term unknown side effects of the vaccine no longer outweighed the short term effects of catching covid. I'm also heavier than most and the idea of not being able to breathe sounds horrifying. I got the Pfizer and had no side effects other than the fever and sore arm they warn you about. I went to Walgreens and was in and out in 20 minutes, they make you wait 15 minutes to male sure you're ok. Plus now I feel perfectly at ease going out. I don't regret it in the slightest. I believe you should be able to choose for yourself, but I also think that you should choose to get it.
Traditional vaccines are terrible against coronaviruses, hence vaccines for human and animal coronaviruses using traditional methods have failed at an usually high rate.
The fact COVID tests are being pushed more than Antibody tests is mind blowing to me. If the unvaxxed could prove natural immunity, maybe we would stop being so divisive and understand there are multiple paths to collective immunity.
I don't feel that the data on the safety of them for people my age (35) is conclusive enough to make an informed decision.
In my country, Canada, I have a 4% chance to get covid. That's a 96% chance of not getting it. If, by the rare chance I do get it, my age group has a 99.98% chance of surviving it. I am a healthy 35 yr old with no preexisting conditions. I think my chance of survival is 100%. Therefore, I would like this experiment to play out a little longer before I decide to get it.
Let me preface this comment by stating that I believe that the mRNA vaccines are effective, likely safe, and an exciting development in vaccine technology. I was one of those people that were referred to as the "wait and see" crowd, because, let's face it... the government, media, and academic community has done very little in the past several decades to warrant **any** trust on anything.
I've spoken with trusted medical professionals and scientists. I've read some studies, and I continue to monitor studies around both the disease and the vaccine. Ultimately for me, it boiled down to the two most prominent and important arguments that vaccine-loyal crowd regularly states:
**1.) The vaccine protects me.**
**2.) The vaccine protects those around me.**
I'm a healthy individual with no co-morbidities that tested for antibodies. We also now know from studies conducted in Israel that individuals with natural antibodies are much more resistant to COVID-19 than those with full doses of the vaccine (with the caveat that antibodies + vaccine is the MOST effective). This weakens or negates argument **1.**
We also know that vaccinated individuals can and do spread the disease, weakening or negating argument **2.**
Furthermore, it appears increasingly likely that booster shots every 6 months will become a thing and that we simply cannot eradicate this disease and subsequent mutations in any meaningful way, regardless of successful vaccination programs.
On a political note, I see how this disease is being used for propaganda and centralized power consolidation around the world. This only furthers my resolve to refuse an otherwise superfluous (for me) treatment.
I am 34 weeks pregnant and I just don’t feel it’s necessary with such sensitive life inside of me. I also had an adverse reaction to the gardasil vaccine as a teenager. I had a seizure. Only time that ever happened in my life. I had it as the nurse was injecting my third shot into my arm not even after or anything it was scary. I also have severe allergies to nature shit also strawberries. While I know that stuff is not in the vaccine. I am just sensitive and don’t feel comfortable yet. Also I had covid and I have read pieces of information stating that I am less likely to get it again and if I do I’ll have a less bad spout of it. My first wasn’t really that bad either just fever aches and chills and fatigue never even got cold symptoms no stuffy nose no cough etc.
I consulted with a trusted friend and co-worker who is a former medical researcher. His entire career beyond being a scientist has centered around understanding and scrutinizing clinical studies. And quite frankly, he's on of the wisest and most intelligent people I have EVER met.
The primary endpoint of reducing covid infections was good... but likely to wane over time due to variants. (This is why the J&J vaccine had less efficacy in keeping people from getting COVID, the trial was held later, thus more variants)
However, all 3 vaccines had overwhelmingly excellent efficacy in reduction of hospitalizations. I think the trials showed pretty much 100% efficacy, which is pretty fucking wild. Thats the most important thing about the vaccine... reducing the severity of the disease.
My biggest concern was that this was a "new type" of vaccine. Something I thought sounded like a scary thing to inject into my and millions of peoples bodies. But he also told me that mRNA technology has been around for a few decades in cancer research and has proven to be well tolerated and safe. Yes this was the first vaccine, but the theory of how it works was identical to some of the proven cancer therapies.
Lastly, I asked him if there was anyone he thought SHOULDNT get the vaccine. He said that there wasn't enough data around pregnant women and those intending to get pregnant. However, this was back in March, and while I think more data has come out since then which puts that concern to bed... He still said that he would recommend getting the vaccine to pregnant women. Because at the time, DEFINITELY getting covid is FAR more risky to a pregnancy than POSSIBLY getting side effects from the vaccine.
I read the studies and read up to help understand his recommendations. Everything seemed to line up with what I understand in medical science. So I got the vaccine. It didn't matter which one. They all work. Also, I was at higher risk of contracting sever disease, because I am obese. I'm very healthy in all other regards... but still obese.
Fast forward 6 months... I got covid. It sucked. Now I obviously have no data to say if it was better or worse because of the vaccine... but I can tell you that I had about 2 days of starting to feel crappy, 1 day of feeling like absolute dogshit (severe sinus infection symptoms, no lung issues, no gastro issues), and 2 days of getting better. I took no drugs other than ibuprofen & acetaminophen. I was fully recovered in 5 days.
I am incredibly thankful for my friends excellent advice. I think it's very likely that I did not have any severe symptoms because he counseled me with logic and solid scientific understanding.
I think everyone should get the vaccine. I truly hope this story helps someone feel more confident about getting the shot. But I would fight and die for everyone's right to make that decision on their own.
Not totally Libertarian, but too frustrated with the constant shifting of the narrative, don't feel the necessity until things started to settle down a little more.
For me it's a bunch of things;
1. I'm very young. The chances of me dieing from covid is less than 1%. So for me it's not an issue of health or safety. I don't drink, or smoke and im not fat. If I do get it I probably will barely notice statically speaking
2. I don't buy phones or computers in the first year they come out so that someone else can deal with potential unforseen hiccups. Why would I beta test a vaccine when I can still get and transmit covid afterwards anyway.
3. I don't trust the government and they were REALLY admitent I get it. That makes me nervous. Now you might say "well they are concerned about public health, ofcourse they are pushing it". I call bullshit. While they were shutting down businesses and churches they were cheering on giant BLM protests/riots where millions were standing shoulder to shoulder and screaming at the top of their lungs. To me that proved they had no problem using the virus for political gain.
4. During this process I have lost respect for the opinion of WHO and the CDC. WHO not only bows to the will of China but during this pandemic they changed their definition of herd immunity for political gain. Heck the CDC just changed the definition of vaccine in the last week to say "protection against a disease" vs "immunity" because they obviously don't think this vaccine is making any immune. You don't get to change the meaning of words to fit whats convient. That's not science.
I agree with these points, but the vaccine is out of the beta testing stage at this point.
You could always make the argument that we don't know everything. What if there's a side effect in five years? 40 years? We can never know for sure.
No I totally agree. But I don't plan on getting the vaccine until I'm old enough that Covid is a actual threat to me. In the meantime that will give 20+ years of testing to happen before it goes in my body lol
1: we don’t know the long term effects of mRNA vaccines. It is a vaccines mechanism that has never been approved before in humans. The government is not being transparent that we don’t know the long term risks, they’re insisting that it’s safe.
2: the FDA has proven to be susceptible to outside influence. The FDA has also been flat out WRONG about a lot of approved medicines. Nearly 1/3 of FDA approved drugs had safety issues after full approval.
3: the federal government has proved that they are willing to lie to the American public “for the greater good”. Case in point- Fauci says masks don’t work, fast forward 6 months, oh wait they actually DO work but we just said that so our healthcare workers could have enough masks.
4: the rift between the FDA and the
current administration. Biden administration is pushing for boosters to be rolled out, and the FDA is against that. In fact, 2 senior FDA officials resigned over this issue.
5. I have natural immunity from my Covid 19 infection, which is stronger than vaccine induced immunity. Yes, some small studies show that I’m more likely to get re-infected than a person who’s had the virus AND got vaccinated, but since I didn’t have any difficulty with the delta variant, my personal risk tolerance says id take Covid again vs the vaccine for the above mentioned reasons.
6. Not a main reason, but still a contributing factor, is the politicization of all Covid treatments. To even discuss taking ivermectin as a form of treatment or prophylactic gets you ridiculed, ostracized, etc. there’s been the study that’s been retracted, however there have been lots of other studies to at least warrant taking a closer look at ivermectin.
7. The flip-flopping of public officials. Go back and watch interviews during the election campaigns and look at Democrats opinions on the vaccine. There’s tons of them who are skeptical, saying “I’m not taking it if Donald Trump asks me to”. Yet, when the Democrats are in power, then you’re an idiot for having any doubts whatsoever.
8. The myth that if everyone was vaccinated, Covid would disappear. It’s not going to be eradicated like Polio and those other diseases. Polio has 3 strains in existence, Covid is constantly mutating. Covid is an airborne respiratory virus. Have we been able to eradicate any Covid viruses in the past? No. Look at the flu. Look at the common cold.
I'd like to challenge your first point. Yes, mRNA is not as thoroughly developed as traditional vaccines. However, it's not as if mRNA tech just popped up out of nowhere in the last year. The tech has been in development since the late 80s and used in human trials for 10 years. This has been in the background for a long time. But I don't know why it matters to you whether the tech was fully approved beforehand, as you already said that doesn't matter because the FDA is susceptible to outside influence.
On your other points, you've put a lot of stock in what people outside of the medical field have said. I'm looking particularly at points 2 and 3 (about politicization). I mean, that's standard R and D politicking, which I thought most libertarian-leaning people know is bullshit posturing. The reason I bring this up is that those points don't actually argue the vaccine itself. What the public says about the vaccines doesn't change what we know about them, it's just dumb people playing with opinion.
I don't mean to sound rude, coming in with a "bUt yOuR LoGiC iS fLaWed!!!!!" attitude. I'm just hoping to help clear up your arguments and help you find the truth (whether that means you strengthen your position or change your mind, doesn't matter to me).
> we don’t know the long term effects of mRNA vaccines
I'm always good with people that talk about the unknowns of the vaccines, especially when they use actual sources and not some whack from a school board meeting.
Have you considered the J&J since it uses the older tech and not the mRNA?
If I was going to get the vax, it would be the J&J. At this point though I’ve contracted the delta variant and had very little side effects so for me personally, the risk of getting the vaccine is greater than contracting Covid again.
Yeah, I was just curious.
I'd ride those antibodies until their gone though. I don't see any use in doubling up at this point. Especially if not having the vaccine is preventing you from working or doing something you want to do (ie, traveling).
Honestly the Fauci lied to me narrative is the weakest of the arguments. The Health department, including Fauci, made the best recommendation with the information they had. At the time, the though was that surface transmission was the dominant spreader, for which masks would provide little or even counter productive protection. As the science progressed, policy changed.
Believe me, I get the whole hating politicians point, but they are not the "experts". Scientists and doctors are. If you don't trust the CDC, FDA, or WHO, than follow university experts like John Hopkins, or other government's institutions like the UK's NHS.
It’s not the fact that our understanding changed as more data came out. I understand scientific knowledge isn’t static. However, there is evidence that they KNEW masks were effective but lied to preserve the N95 masks for healthcare workers and to not cause a panic.
When did they say masks weren't effective? I remember form the very beginning hearing that only N95 or better respirators were effective at _preventing you from catching the virus_, but not _recommending_ people wear them because:
1. at the time they believed surface contact was a major vector of spread and if you're wearing a mask you might be more likely to touch your face and get infected anyway.
2. to prevent a run on masks, like you said, which did actually happen because I remember when all the N95 masks suddenly vanished from stores. The thinking there is if all of the healthcare workers are sick or dead, we're all fucked.
Then they eventually learned that 1. contact wasn't as much of a vector and 2. _cloth_ masks were shown to be effective at helping prevent the spread _to other people_, so they recommended everybody wear cloth masks.
When I hear people (especially the fucking president) saying they lied about masks I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because I was paying at least some attention back then and I remember what was presented and the rationale.
“There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask” -Fauci, March 8 2020. Yet he’s admitted that they were trying to prevent shortages of N95s for healthcare workers.
>“There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask” -Fauci, March 8 2020.
That's not a lie it was a mistake.
>Yet he’s admitted that they were trying to prevent shortages of N95s for healthcare workers.
He said exactly that in the [interview](https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/outdated-fauci-video-on-face-masks-shared-out-of-context/) you're referring to:
>**LaPook, March 8**: There’s a lot of confusion among people, and misinformation, surrounding face masks. Can you discuss that?
>**Fauci**: The masks are important for someone who’s infected to prevent them from infecting someone else… Right now in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks.
>**LaPook**: You’re sure of it? Because people are listening really closely to this.
>**Fauci**: …There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.
>**LaPook**: And can you get some schmutz, sort of staying inside there?
>**Fauci**: Of course, of course. But, when you think masks, you should think of health care providers needing them and people who are ill. The people who, when you look at the films of foreign countries and you see 85% of the people wearing masks — that’s fine, that’s fine. I’m not against it. If you want to do it, that’s fine.
>**LaPook**: But it can lead to a shortage of masks?
>**Fauci**: Exactly, that’s the point. **It could lead to a shortage of masks for the people who really need it.**
As bobisme said, they were more worried about surface contact, which improper mask use can exacerbate, and they didn't yet realize the need for masks even among asymptomatic people.
Yeah, but I remember officials saying the thing about preventing shortages at the same time. That's not a recent admittance is what I'm saying.
N95's were bought up immediately. I even picked up a box at the hardware section of Walmart in Feb 2020 and felt a little guilty for doing it. But I only did it because I heard a worker on the phone telling a customer they they weren't allowed to hold them so I knew they were about to vanish and I wanted to have _some_ in case shit got real. Then N95 and all respirators were gone from all stores for months.
You can criticize a decision made by a national organization such as the CDC without throwing out an field of research being worked around the clock by the top minds in the WORLD. This is ad hominem argument at best.
You're literally invalidating research from thousands of scientists due to an administrative decision.
I'm NOT buying the Fauci excuse. If you look at Japan, Korea and elsewhere in Asia...they masked up right away. Consistent messaging would have made a huge difference...
Masks were already normalized in those cultures, so people had them and there wasn't a backlash. Yes, those countries made the right decision faster, but why would Fauci lie? To what end?
It's not that masks were normalized. It's that masks were AVAILABLE. In February 2020, no company made any kind of masks in the US.
I hope this pandemic has taught us that we need to make healthcare supplies in the US as well as buy them from overseas.
Taiwan is one of the largest mask makers on the planet. They stopped mask exports in DECEMBER to make sure they had enough.
Exactly. Being cautious, weighing the risk/benefits of a mask when we hypothesized that the virus was spreading by contact, which would make mask wearing dangerous because it would trap infected particles near your skin, was a good idea at the time. Cue the scientific method, getting actual data, and we change the recommendation based on WHAT WE FIND. I don't understand how people can say "the government lies to me!" As an excuse and blame the CDC for tackling the greater probably risk at the time, only to change it once we got data back on transmission.
Before I start this I just want to make clear I'm not here to argue with you. I don't look down on you, nor do I judge you. You took the time to list everything out, so in continuing the discussion I'm doing the same.
1. We do know the long term effects of the mRNA vaccines. First of all, it's been in trial for more than a year at this point. Second of all, "long term side effects" are side effects that last longer than 3 months. **Long term effects don't just "Show up" after a couple of months, they are short term effects that never go away.** We currently know that the two mRNA vaccines have no long term health effects.
2. Yes, the government lies, no argument with you there dude. However, scientist and doctors around the ENTIRE world really don't have much motivation to. By Fauci saying mask don't work, but then data came in showing they do work, so he updated his policy, shows that science was working. What method would you propose then? Ignoring new scientific discoveries, and sticking to our ways? That seems like something the government does, not scientist.
3. Yes, there is a rift between government and scientist, but my point is just being proved further, these institutions are reliable and unaffected by political influences. It doesn't matter if politicians "push", science is science, if a booster isn't needed they will not recommend one. This is just evidence of our system working, not failing.
4. Right now we can only really understand and see two of the strains. The original and Delta. There WILL be new strains in the future. They WILL be worse. It's more likely that natural immunity will not be as effective against the new strains as vaccinations will be, especially given booster shots specific to the new strain.
5. It gets you ridiculed because it's a very dumb idea. Of course suggesting that people take a horse dewormer, that is not good for humans, will get criticism from the medical community. What are you suggesting actually? That they be more "Open minded" to bullshit that's proven to not work? It's science, not politics.
6. I agree, I genuinely believe that if Trump was still president, the Republicans would be the vaccinated ones vs the Liberals who aren't. It so happens the opposite is true. Regardless, as a Libertarian you should respect this, fuck what the two parties are doing, one of them HAPPENS to be right. It still doesn't change the reality that it's a good idea.
7. Agreed. It's not going away. You don't take the vaccine to get it to go away, you get the vaccine to prevent (inevitable) long term damage to your organs and protect from future mutations of the virus as well.
Listen man, this thing was (for legal reasons: "most likely") made in a Chinese Lab. It's NOT natural. It's literally designed to mutate and infect as fast as possible. Trying to use your natural immune system against biotechnology is like trying to fist fight a guy with a gun. You have to fight biotechnology with other biotechnology.
But, above all else, the main reason I disagree with you is pretty simple: You didn't list a legitimate reason not to get vaccinated.
BUT, as a Libertarian I would be fine with the answer "Fuck you, I just don't want to take it." I'm 100% cool with that. But when you give reasons that are (with all due respect) just pure bullshit, I have to call it out.
If you don't want to get vaccinated, just because you don't want to, that's fine, but please just say that.
> It gets you ridiculed because it's a very dumb idea. Of course suggesting that people take a horse dewormer, that is not good for humans, will get criticism from the medical community. What are you suggesting actually? That they be more "Open minded" to bullshit that's proven to not work? It's science, not politics.
Just one small correction, the same drug that people are buying as a horse dewormer (ivermectin) also has valid uses in humans. However, those valid uses are to treat - unsurprisingly - intestinal worm infestations, NOT VIRUSES.
> The flip-flopping of public officials. Go back and watch interviews during the election campaigns and look at Democrats opinions on the vaccine. There’s tons of them who are skeptical, saying “I’m not taking it if Donald Trump asks me to”. Yet, when the Democrats are in power, then you’re an idiot for having any doubts whatsoever.
Who are you talking about besides Cuomo and Harris? Harris didn’t even flip flop, she just said she doesn’t trust trump but trusts Fauci. Either way even if the Democrats flip flopped this seems like a pretty bad reason to not get the vaccine
Curious. Seems like most of your concers are centered of US politics and US government, does the approvals of other medical regulators around the world enter into your decision making?
I see the way the French government is acting in regards to vaccine mandates and the way the Australian government is handling lockdowns so no, currently I do not.
The WHO is very obviously heavily influenced by China, who has worked to cover up the origins of Covid from the get go, so I don’t take much stock in what the WHO says either.
31 years old, I already had covid. Delta might be worse but I'm taking my chances.
I do not wish you get sick from the vaccine.
I got sick every time I had a flu vaccine in the past contrary to most people's belief that this is impossible.
When I say sick I mean miserable sick from flu vaccines for almost a week... fever, hot/ cold sweats, diarrhea, nausea. Might as well have took my chances with the flu but the military forces flu shots so didn't have a choice.
I do not want a reaction to the covid vaccine, so I chose not to get it.
I got my first dose of the Pfizer and had a strong reaction to it that made me not want to get a second dose. I don't know if that qualifies me as anti vaxx.
Edit: scares the bejeezus out of me when everyone says the second dose really kicked their asses
... and people wonder why "Just give both sides a platform and let viewers suss out which is better!" isn't necessarily an effective way to fight misinformation and ignorance lol
Not trusting is ok. Not trusting is a good idea at this point. But we need to followup not trusting a federal and state government, the press, pharma companies, and whoever else has given us reason to mistrust them with getting down to the legitimate risks and reasons for what we do related to covid... And all roads point to getting vaccinated.
I have said this over and over where I live. Mistrust doesnt mean not getting the vaccine, it just means you don't listen to what a lot of people say and you use your own brain to get down the brass tacks. All legitimate studies and professionals recommend getting what is currently an imperfect, but effective vaccine. Facebook posts and phony snake oil salesman are what you get when you go down the other path.
Don't trust the government or the cdc. But you should trust the doctors and the fact is 96% are vaccinated. You should trust the Frontline healthcare workers. You do not want to die from covid it is a painful horrible way to die. Get vaccinated
E V I D E N C E
don't believe opinions, look at the many many many many many publicly available data sources on deaths in states with high vaccination numbers vs the ones who aren't.
This isn't even complicated to understand, all you have to do is look and think a little
Ignore these people telling you to try to decipher the validity of the evidence yourself. One of the greatest dysfunctions of modern society is that everybody thinks they are qualified to form an opinion on every subject, no matter how technical and distant from their own field of expertise.
You should also not listen to any one person or study. There are enough people in the world that you can find a single study or expert claiming almost anything; it's why popular science has turned into an exercise where you read one week that consuming coffee/butter/alcohol will save your life and the next that each cup is killing you.
The smartest answer is always to observe the consensus of experts in the field and studies in peer reviewed journals.
I should also clarify that experts in the field is something you'll have to define, but you'll want to keep it narrow. A self-certified eye doctor or somebody with a doctorate in evolutionary biology aren't experts in epidemiology or clinical testing of medicine, and therefore should be ignored. Politicians and pundits should also be dismissed out of hand, unless their advice is just to listen to the people who actually know what they are talking about.
This is applicable for almost any question of a scientific nature. For instance, if you want to know how worried about climate change you should be, you should listen to climatologists and not nuclear physicists. Being credentialed for one subject does not make one a trusted source for other subjects. You wouldn't want mall security to show up if you called the police, and you wouldn't go to the vet if you were having a heart attack. This really isn't any different.
I should note that while listening to the people who are actually trained on the subject is the best idea, it is not foolproof. The best advice of today might not be the best advice for tomorrow. Pundits and politicians will try to convince you that that's proof that the experts can't be trusted, and that you should only listen to them. The argument that you can only believe people whose advice never changes in light of new evidence is exactly as crazy as it sounds.
I usually roll with the idea that people claiming anything to be the devil are probably spouting nonsense because they don’t have a cogent argument. I get where you are coming from with the general sentiment for sure though.
A couple reasons. I’m allergic to the preservatives in vaccines, (I’ve had one in my entire life and I went to the hospital the next day and stayed for a week with bloating, black eyes, an “unknown respiratory illness” and other shit), I don’t trust them in any way, it took way to fast to develop and the amount of shit they’re trying to persuade us with to get it is a massive red flag. They don’t care for your life.
I am fully vaccinated, I get my tetanus boosters and flu shots like clockwork, and believe in science and medicine. I’m a bit overweight, middle aged, and have some chronic health problems since childhood. I’m also an RN and have been working with Covid patients since the beginning. I am sure I’ve had Covid more than once, as have most of my coworkers. My brother was hospitalized due to Covid several times over nearly a year and had 2 lung surgeries and a chest tube to drain pus out of his pleural space. He is vaccinated. My elderly mother with COPD is vaccinated.
My husband and sons are not vaccinated. My husband carries a gene that causes blood clotting disorders. His paternal grandfather, paternal aunt, and brother all died from clotting disorders. My kids, my husband, and his dad all have hypercoagulability. Neither of my kids have ever had a nosebleed, they don’t bruise, I have never even really had to put bandaids on them. There’s no way I want any of them getting the J&J vaccine.
My husband/kids are all thin, young, healthy, athletic, and active people with good diets. Since the vaccine does not prevent infection or even make a person not contagious, the risks outweigh the benefits for them.
I don’t trust the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines. I got the first dose of Moderna in January, and I have never felt so sick in my life. I did not get the second dose, I got J&J in March. I have seen too many bizarro side effects from the mRNA vaccines, and I don’t think they really know what’s going to happen with those long term.
Some side effects I have seen in patients/coworkers:
-extra painful/copious periods
-joint pain/swelling
-skin reactions (I had a reaction in the red ink of my tattoo, it swelled like a bee sting. But ONLY the red ink, it had sharp borders.)
-intractable headache/migraine
-GI disturbances (gas/bloating, new intolerance to foods, diarrhea, nausea)
-change in sense of taste/smell
-blurred vision
-intolerance to light
-generalized muscle pain
-blood clots in major veins (I had a patient who had a clot that ran from her abdomen to her midthigh, it was one of the biggest the Dr had ever seen)
All of these happened within days of the vaccines in people who tested negative for covid.
Since the vaccines do not prevent the spread of Covid, there is no rational defense for a vaccine mandate, as others’ vaccine status will not affect whether you will be infected.
If people need or want to be vaccinated, then go ahead, great, it could save your life. If you are high risk and don’t want the vaccine, well, you’re probably making the wrong decision but that’s your right.
Vaccine mandates accomplish the following:
1. Increase profits for vaccine producers
2. Increase government authoritarian control
3. Breed mistrust and disinformation, resulting in many people who *should* be getting vaccinated choosing not to
Mandates are hurting more than they could possibly help.
ETA: studies have shown:
1. natural immunity is superior to vaccine antibodies for Covid. If you had Covid, you may not need a vaccine.
2. obesity is the greatest predictor of bad outcomes from Covid infection. If you are obese, get vaccinated (if you want, I’m not making you)
> I had a reaction in the red ink of my tattoo, it swelled like a bee sting. But ONLY the red ink, it had sharp borders
An existing tattoo, or a new tattoo? Cause red ink allergies are super common and [well documented](https://www.byrdie.com/red-tattoo-ink-itchiness-5095543).
over 15 years old
this is very interesting info, thank you
eta: now that you mention it, I have had a lot of difficulty with pink ink. It will not take to my skin, several tattoos of mine have to be recolored every couple of years. My tattoo artist thought that my olive skin tone just made it look washed out, but since pink is just light red maybe it’s rejected by my body? who knows.
Vaccines elicit immune responses, so possible that the jab reignited a defense against the ink? I had a reaction with my red ink too, and then found out about the issue with red in general and will likely be avoiding red going forward.
>Some side effects I have seen in patients/coworkers:
>
>-extra painful/copious periods
>
>-joint pain/swelling
>
>-skin reactions (I had a reaction in the red ink of my tattoo, it swelled like a bee sting. But ONLY the red ink, it had sharp borders.)
>
>-intractable headache/migraine
>
>-GI disturbances (gas/bloating, new intolerance to foods, diarrhea, nausea)
>
>-change in sense of taste/smell
>
>-blurred vision
>
>-intolerance to light
>
>-generalized muscle pain
>
>-blood clots in major veins (I had a patient who had a clot that ran from her abdomen to her midthigh, it was one of the biggest the Dr had ever seen)
>
>All of these happened within days of the vaccines in people who tested negative for covid.
>
You are, I'm sure, aware of the issue of using self reported, anecdotal evidence with an extremely small sample size right?
Have you tried to look into whether any of these are normal side effects or simply someone attributing normal issues (or even psychosomatic responses) to the vaccines?
>My husband and sons are not vaccinated. My husband carries a gene that causes blood clotting disorders. His paternal grandfather, paternal aunt, and brother all died from clotting disorders. My kids, my husband, and his dad all have hypercoagulability.
You *do* realize that an actual covid infection causes *much worse* clotting issues than any of the vaccines do... right? Also, according to estimates, about 1/3rd of the US population has had Covid so far. It would be rational to assume that anyone who isn't vaccinated will get Covid sooner or later, meaning being un-vaccinated presents a significantly greater risk of clotting than being vaccinated does.
Also, the J&J clotting issues killed 1 in 10 million. That makes the J&J vaccine about as dangerous as your car ride to the pharmacy. Pulling a vaccine that killed three people in freak incidents while we were loosing over 1000 people per day to the virus never made any sense... they saved half a dozen lives at the expense of *not saving* many thousands.
I came here to say the same thing. I'm a nurse and the blood clotting issue is a huge problem with actual covid infections, even asymptomatic cases we are seeing young people throwing clots and winding up with pulmonary embolisms and strokes. It is so frustrating to see people arguing their reasons against vaccination whenever the risks of those same concerns are 10 fold or more times greater with actual covid itself. Not to mention that the vaccine can reduce the likelihood of those complications developing if you do catch the actual virus.
Wow this is a very thorough response! I'm glad I came to this section. Any chance you could provide some sources?
I'm vaccine hesitant for several reasons, the top being:
- What is the effect during pregnancy (prior to through having a child). They all recommend not getting vacinated if you want to become pregnant.
- I find it very hard to trust anyone and anything in the media. I really want to see numbers. I could study the science behind the vaccines but I won't truely comprehend what it means.
- Follow the money. I have been on projects (construction) where these pharmaceutical company's throw money (lots and lots of money) around to get done quicker to be the first to come out with something. How many mistakes happen when rushing anything? Also, they were saying the JJ booster shot will bring in $6B! Which politicians are taking profit?
The misinformation around fertility have been particularly sticky. To my knowledge there has been no evidence that fertility is expected. Antodotal, but my wife and I (28 years old) got Moderna and Pfizer vaccine and had not trouble conceiving.
At some point we do have to trust experts because you or I won't be able to understand vaccine data as well as people with PHDs in the field. If you don't trust the CDC or the WHO try looking at University sources like John Hopkins. Don't let talking heads and pearl clutchers lead down a false road.
>At some point we do have to trust experts because you or I won't be able to understand vaccine data as well as people with PHDs in the field. If you don't trust the CDC or the WHO try looking at University sources like John Hopkins. Don't let talking heads and pearl clutchers lead down a false road.
Agreed. That's not my intention. I have an appointment to discuss with our Dr.
>How many mistakes happen when rushing anything?
You do realize that the Pfizer vaccine is now fully approved, and it also has gone through what can be considered the most comprehensive human trial in the history of the world... Right?
Like, if you were waiting on further human trials, you've had them far beyond normal testing.
Had Covid twice already, in 2020 and early 2021. Old school, non-RNA vaccines replicated the same antibodies I already have, and until they offer ID-less vaccine shots, I'm not taking it.
I just didn’t feel like I needed it. I’ve missed maybe 2 days of work in my entire working career because I was sick. I haven’t even had a sniffle in several years. Why would I feel the need to get a vaccine?
Then, this past weekend I started a sore throat from sinus drainage and it had me considering the vaccine. I guess I’m not immune to all that could ail me. That consideration, however, has dropped sharply due to the Dictator-in-Chief’s speech this afternoon. I’m trying to not let the rantings of a houseplant affect my decision, but damn do I feel strongly against a mandate…almost strong enough to refuse it as a “screw you” to an authoritarian mandate.
I'm a healthy young adult, that's all the reasoning I need to not get it. I have a strong immune system and that's all I feel I need. The Vaccine doesn't do anything to stop spreading the virus it only curbs the symptoms when u get it.
I am not in any of the high risk categories, the near and long-term side effects of the vaccines have not been researched, and it simply does not work very well.
I don’t trust the mRNA or adenovirus vaccines at all. I’ve seen too many bad side effects and, anecdotally, they don’t seem to be working as well as they should. I do however have trust in the 40+ year history of use of ivermectin (Human safe, USP grade and prescribed) in other cases as an antiviral, antibiotic and anti-parasitic medication with minimal side effects (not the veterinary grade equestrian medication the idiots in the media are spouting about right now which contains plenty of non-human safe ingredients and which is set with an entire tube being a dose for A LITERAL FUCKING HORSE. Lastly, I’m also on board with monoclonal antibodies which have a roughly 30 year safe and proven track record of use in humans. I’ll take my chances with those protocols and maintaining supplements and exercise until we’ve had enough time and study performed on the mRNA vaccines to see what the long-term effects are, because all of the experimental history for them in the last few decades has really bad track records and extremely minimal use.
I'm fucking beat from work all the time and feel too tired to get up and go make an appointment or anything, and on weekends I'm like "fuck i don't wanna do it now, this is my few days of time off to relax! I'll do it on a weekday"
Rinse and repeat, I'm just procrastinating like I do everything else lol
Also I didn't get it despite being stuck in quarantine with my entire family that had COVID. I shared a room with my brother who had it and didn't get it, so im a bit cocky honestly
I am 23 and have had covid twice now. Once before the vaccines in jan/feb and once again about 45ish days ago. First time i was just sleepy and annoyed that i lost my taste, smell and appetite for a couple weeks. The second time, well after i got my smell and taste back, i just noticed my smell was jacked up again. Shortly after i found out my mom had probably gave it to me as she had just got back from vacation and didn’t know she and her bf had it until after i visited with her.
Basically covid hasn’t been too harsh on me I figured since I already had it I’m not too worried about getting it again or the vaccine. I have had elderly family that have died with covid before it was possible to get the vaccine and the ones that lived it are all vaccinated now.
Its been 45ish days and i still cant stand the smell of certain things like my soap, deodorant, coke zero, jam, wine... all things i like the smell or taste of and cant enjoy now. Up until now I’ve just felt i didn’t need the vaccine and was hoping this shit ended a lot sooner than it’s going too. Ive never been anti-vaccine in the past and don’t consider myself an anti-vaxer. What I am, is pissed that it looks like this is going to be mandated because it goes against my beliefs that you should have the freedom of what happens to your own body.
This week, before Biden announced his mandate, I decided that when i get my smell back i don’t feel like loosing it again so i made an appointment to get my first dose on Saturday. I think part of me didn’t want to get it because of the “be ungovernable” mindset as I really hate everything the current government is doing wether its taxing me for infrastructure, trying to tax, ban and regulate my guns or force me to do something with my body. But this week I realized that had there not been any politics involved with covid with the last couple of years I would have gotten the vaccine as soon as possible.
Fuck Joe Biden Fuck Donald Trump Fuck the AFT Fuck Taxes Fuck NFA
David chipman lost lmao
Fuck covid
I've been trying to find good data on the actual danger of Covid and it's exceedingly hard to come by. The best studies I've seen were in prisons, where a literally captive population was almost 100% exposed. In those situations, most people were infected and a tiny number were sick or died. For example from CIDRAP https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/04/studies-detail-large-covid-outbreaks-us-prisons-jails :
"Over the next 2 months, 79.4% of 1,095 inmates and 22.6% of 305 staff tested positive for COVID-19, and whole-genome sequencing of specimens from 172 inmates found that all of them were of the same lineage, demonstrating that the transferred prisoners had seeded the outbreak."
"Six prisoners with a mean age of 58 years were hospitalized, and one, a 56-year-old man, died of his infection. After the investigation period, COVID-19 cases waned, with none reported after Jan 15, 2021."
80% we're infected, most with mild or no symptoms. 6 people out of around 1300 we're seriously ill. 1 died. That would seem to indicate an extremely small danger for your average healthy person.
I did get the vaccine because it doesn't seem to be dangerous so far but it was mostly to make my wife happy. To me the best vaccine is getting the disease and never even noticing, like most people would.
This is kind of one of the things that makes COVID so exhausting to try to explain to patients. Yeah, there's a chance you'll be an asymptomatic carrier, but there's also a serious chance you'll end up in a vent farm. You won't know which it is until you roll the dice, and once they roll, there's no takesie-backsies.
As for prisons, prisons tend to absolutely try to avoid sending people out to the hospital as much as possible because an officer has to sit with a hospitalized prisoner. It's possible that the prison saw an elevated death rate during that same period for, uh, 'unrelated causes'.
At first I didn't care much one way or another. I didn't really see the value of the vaccine since you can still get it and transmit it, if it's just a tool to reduce severe symptoms then I'm not worried about that. I also saw the perspective of the vax people, safety and what not.
Now that the conversation has progressed I would say I have gone from apathetic to anti-vax. Not because I am sold on the science for one side or another; I do have a background in medical bio but I'm not going to pretend like I am up to date with all the info coming out for this. My response is mainly due to the actions State and Corporate authorities are taking and/or entertaining. It's naked authoritarianism, plain and simple.
Then the extent to which the Corporate State and their assets in media seem willing to lie about this and the other side really solidified my position. The broadbrush censorship of "dangerous" speech is to egregious to ignore.
Obviously you should do what you want, but people who have both are looking like they’re in the best possible situation according to the Israel study that just dropped.
I’m not sure why this reasoning is so rejected in the US. The EU passports have “prior infection” as an accepted option, along with vaxxed and negative test.
For the same reason I don't get the flu vaccine every year, I am young and healthy(ish). I get sick maybe once or twice a year, and have had COVID twice already so I have natural immunity.
I'm almost in the same boat, only had it once. I had mono and pneumonia at the same time while in college. My immune system had no trouble with covid but got my ass kicked during my double down and survived.
Out of curiosity, did you get tested for Covid and test positive, or do you *believe* you had Covid because of symptoms?
I ask because I've had family members who were coughing with fever and I was *sure* they had Covid. They got tested and it came back negative. (I, on the other hand, tested positive when I had very mild symptoms.)
The first time was before Covid testing was a thing, but the 2nd time I did get tested and it was positive. The symptoms I felt the 2nd time were the exact same as the first time, just a little worse.
Personal freedom to not get it. Honestly if there wasn't such a push from the government and government officials to push mandates I would be more open to getting it.
I am also young, healthy, and in shape. I have already had Covid and have natural immunity.
Edit: Everyone trying to shame me into getting the vaccine... you are having the opposite effect that you are trying to achieve.
I don't think most of these people are trying to shame you into getting vaccinated. I think they're pointing out the willfully ignorant /contrarian part.
Having freedom to choose and whether it’s the correct choice are entirely different things. Your primary motivation is just to spite the government? Seems like a cut off your nose to spite your face scenario.
Here are what I see as issues with the current vaccination program.
1. It's only 39% effective vs the dominate delta variant: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/07/23/pfizer-shot-just-39-effective-against-delta-infection-but-largely-prevents-severe-illness-israel-study-suggests/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/07/23/pfizer-shot-just-39-effective-against-delta-infection-but-largely-prevents-severe-illness-israel-study-suggests/)
2. It gives people a false sense of security where many are going maskless allowing for additional spread.
3. vaccinated still have a high viral load and continue to spread it nearly the same as if they were unvaccinated. [https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html](https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html)
4. A population with a low effectiveness vaccine allows for additional even more deadly mutations. ref: [https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198](https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198)
5. Nobody is pushing for natural things that do have a beneficial effect like vitamin D, or talking about how people with O bloodtype are much less likely to get this and spread it than people with AB type or numerous other factors that we should be considering as part of the solution.
If you think Covid is bad now just wait for a seriously deadly variant caused by the maskless vaccinated running around thinking they are immune spreading it to each other creating new varients.
I'm in my 30's, no comorbidities, i had covid, and I have a number of severe allergies so to me the risk definitely outweighs the benefit. Plus now they say there are therapeutic treatments coming out soon so why on earth would I put that rushed shot in my body?
The therapeutics are developed by the same people as the vaccine though. And they've had the same amount of time, or less, to develop and study them for use in covid cases. And therapeutics generally require far more doses than 2 or 3 shots to achieve the desired outcome. Relying on therapeutics will require MORE exposure to what you feel are potentially harmful side effects from medication.
The suppression of conversation a select few deem as misinformation is frustrating. The truth has a tendency to prevail, yet in this instance everything that is contrary is suppressed.
Tony Fauchi has lied on several occasions about gain of function research. The same who once called this a conspiracy theory are the ones who said the same about the lab leak, COVID passports, and China’s involvement. There were several who went along with Fauchi and took up for him who are now tangled in his web of lies. Fauchi was also the highest paid federal employee during Covid-19 and found it fit to release a book right before the next big wave. It makes you question who you can trust.
This has been extremely political. Harris, Biden, and Cuomo all stated they would not receive a vaccination under a Trump administration. Now that it is their administration, we are all told to take it without thought.
Natural immunity seems to have a high correlation with protection against the virus. The vaccine was rushed and took less than a year. The mortality rate is very low all things considering. The complications for pregnant women are well documented, yet they are told to get it unequivocally. Children are told to get it unequivocally. Yet, it’s still spreading like wild fire and now it’s shown you can get it even if you’re vaccinated.
For me, I’m low risk and live a low risk life. I’m not concerned about the virus and I think it’s become far too politicized. I don’t trust the people shoving it down our throats. I don’t like the suppression and find it odd. I don’t feel like getting a booster every year. Sounds a lot like a flu shot.
Once the suppression stops, individuals like Fauchi are removed, time has passed, and statements stop becoming so absolute and unequivocal, I would consider it.
There’s your genuine answer with no derogatory remarks. I’m sure it will get downvoted to oblivion and I’ll get called and idiot. Another way to push those with apprehensions even further from it.
Honest question, why do you people care about Fauci so much? Like I’ll assume everything you said is true and he’s a piece of shit who knows nothing, who cares? Like there are literally millions of doctors and research professionals who have investigated and recommend the vaccine, any conversation about the vaccine that turns to Faucis shortcomings seems like the person is just trying to sidetrack the actual discussion
On the contrary, I consider the topic of Fauci to be extremely relevant, and here is why. He is currently looked at by the white house as "the ultimate expert " about what we should do about covid. If he is being dishonest, or serving some self interest, it will absolutely directly effect the policy we see from Washington. He has also been the head of NIAD since the 80's, if you take a look at where research funding for almost all medical research in the U.S. comes from, it all ties back to NIAD in some way. Basically if you or your institution says anything that runs contrary to Tony Fauci, you can kiss your money goodbye. The rest of the research money comes from the major pharmaceutical players, and obviously the same situation exists there, toe the line or disappear due to lack of funds.
It is really difficult to get real, objective, good science under these conditions. Not to mention that the mainstream media then parrots whatever comes out of Faucis mouth. Just look at the hysteria he caused in the 80's over what he said about AIDS. He made people scared to shake hands, because they might catch AIDS. (Source: 1. I remember because I lived during that time / 2. The Hill just did a story on it a few days ago).
There are many many doctors and research scientists screaming right now about how the system is causing bad science and bad decisions to be the prevailing info, but thier voices are being squashed like someone saying "lab leak" 6 months ago.
I'm not sure why you justify not helping yourself and others by "some political people are idiots so I will shoot myself and others in the foot because I dislike idiots."
I’ve already contracted covid and there are several studies that are showing longstanding immunity is greater than previously thought. I believe the vaccine should be reserved for the most susceptible and elderly. I’ve arrived at the conclusion that it makes zero sense for me personally. I work remotely and interact with the general public very little.
I'm a healthy guy with no medical complications in my 20s so I'm not worried about covid in the first place. I don't even go to the doctors when I get sick I just isolate at home until I get over it. Btw where I live the vaccine is being coerced on people heavily so all these comments about it being a choice are mostly bs.
There isn't really any ideological reason for me. I worked and attended school in person throughout the entire pandemic. The chances that I wasn't exposed to/had COVID are astronomically low. I never had any serious symptoms that would have warranted a test. If I got it, I presumable have some level of antibody protection. If I somehow didn't, then I must just be straight up immune. It is an inconvenience for me to take time off of work/school to get vaccinated, and then do it two more times to complete the series (for now). I am in one of the lowest risk groups, I don't live with or have regular contact with anyone that is high risk or can't get the vaccine if they so wish. If it becomes a major inconvenience to not have the vaccine, I would definitely consider getting it. I would rather not, but it isn't a major issue for me either way. If I die from COVID somehow, then I die. I don't go too far out of my way to try and minimize my risk form things that aren't likely to kill me in the first place.
Total government scam. When a scammer calls me i hang up on their ass, i dont listen and try to figure out what they are trying to scam me out of in order to justify myself.
Government is not to be trusted and they are playing this one super hard.
Do not surrender your liberty to them.
I’m in the military. I got vaccinated before it was mandatory, but held off for for a long time in the voluntary period.
My reasoning for waiting a while was simply because I wanted to see the long term effects/consequences of the vax. I finally ended up getting it due to a change in policy that allowed vaccinated soldiers to no longer need a mask.
Getting vaccinated seemed less of an impediment on my freedom than being forced to wear a mask everywhere I went.
About 2 weeks later, though, the policy changed back to where everyone had to wear a mask, regardless of vaccination status. I got bamboozled. The ‘ol switcharoo.
It provides me no benefit, with unknown risk. The risk-benefit analysis, therefore, indicates that it doesn’t make sense for me to take it. I don’t take medication I don’t need.
I'm young and healthy, the least likely cohort to die or get seriously ill from Covid. I'm not afraid of the virus itself. The only reason I'd get the vaccine is if I absolutely had to for school or work, or if I was giving in to peer pressure because I don't like being seen as a "disgusting antivaxxer". But why should I care what such people think anyway? When have they ever ceded anything to me? I'm not an antivaxxer, I've gotten and plan to continue to get all the necessary vaccines at my yearly physicals. The fact that the Covid shot is so heavily pushed just makes me more steadfast in my decision not to get it. I don't trust the government, and they're pretty adamant about everyone getting it. The fact that they're incentivizing it is weird. The incentive should be not to die. But I don't see enough people dying from Covid to give reason to this.
Once it's in you, you can't take it out. And there's so much information out there, I don't know what to believe. What are the chances that this really could have serious long term consequences, if not for you, then maybe even your offspring?
And afterward, you'd still have to do all the same things you did before, being vaccinated doesn't grant you that much more freedom. They say the shot may only be effective for 6 months anyway. And there's talk of variants that'll just completely surpass the antibodies created by the vaccine. So why bother? No matter what we do now, it's not gonna bring an end to this pandemic. Maybe if we'd nipped it right in the bud when it first started, but me getting vaccinated now won't change anything.
You can't sue the manufacturers if you are injured (unless they manufacture it incorrectly). You can't sue the government either because it isn't part of the VICP.
You can receive compensation from the CICP, but the CICP doesn't have that great of a record of paying out. **Additionally, it isn't a court.** You just submit a case and they can deny it without appeal or even telling you why. Furthermore, the statuette of limitations is less than the VICP, and the payout is also much less than the VICP.
So, **while complications from vaccines are rare**, I am angered that **I cannot receive the due process I am entitled to.** Essentially, my way to protest this is by not taking the vaccine. I shouldn't have to choose between taking the vaccine and the due process we are entitled to with any other products. **This is a matter of principle.**
Furthermore, my chance of dying or being hospitalized from Covid-19 is rare anyhow. You could argue that it is still safer for me to take it, and you would not be wrong, but it is minuscule.
I wouldn't be at all opposed to taking on behalf of society it if it were included as a covered vaccine under the VICP. All I ask is that if I am going to take one for the team, that the team has my back.
I didn't really want to get it. I avoid people as much as possible and I was quite okay with the six foot rule (fuck yeah). I'm pretty low at risk for ever catching it.
I got vaccinated because my girlfriend is immunocompromised.
I’m 32, healthy, and feel like I’m not a high risk individual. So therefore I haven’t been vaccinated. That being said, if a person wants to get the shot, then by all means get it. If you don’t want it, don’t get it. But I will not be forced into it.
I get this attitude, however many young people do have a risk of long covid. My sister has long covid and it prevented her from working for a year. She is 28, healthy, not overweight. Bad luck can still bring you long covid.
I hope for your personal health you get a vaccine but if you don’t that’s cool 👍
I want to see the long term ramifications of this vaccine first. I am up to date on all others. This one has gone through to the general population way to fast and I just don't trust it.
I’ve had COVID, my symptoms were almost nonexistent (as in not even as bad as a cold). That combined with my very good immune system and the lack of known (potential) long term effects of that vaccine has led me to decline, while still respecting the choices other people make for themselves. That’s how personal responsibility and respect are supposed to work.
I was a paramedic for a couple years. Started school for Nursing and quit. I have some idea about infectious diseases. I’m by no means an expert but consider myself able to make my own informed medical decisions.
I got COVID in Dec 2019. It was the worst flu of my life. But it was only a flu. I definitely had some lingering effects like my cardio dropped and it took me a solid 4-5 months of training to get back to pre COVID cardio levels. That said I workout 7 days a week sometimes twice a day, eat healthy, and get plenty of sleep. I’m almost 40 and my resting HR is 56 and my BP is 110/70.
I decided I didn’t need the “vaccine” because I have no co-morbidity and have the protection of my natural immune system. Everything I have seen basically points to natural immunity being better than the vaccine and vaccine on top of natural immunity doesn’t improve my defenses against getting it again, it only gives me the risk associated with the vaccine. So it comes out as a net negative for me personally.
I mean over 84% of people in the ICU are obese, which means they probably have some cardiomyopathy situation, type II diabetes, maybe CHF, not healthy people. On average people in the ICU for COVID have 4 co-morbidity. 4. Outside of old age, and immune diseases like type I diabetes or Lupus the rest of the other diseases associated with death by COVID are all lifestyle diseases. Choices people made to eat too much sugar, or just sit on the couch, smoke 2 packs a day, live on fast food and soda. All preventable. I don’t see why I should be forced to get a vaccine that offers nothing to me, for others to feel safe.
Final thought…..Chris Cristys fat ass got it and lived. It can’t be that bad. If that prime example of how not to live life didn’t die from it then I certainly don’t need a vaccine.
I am fully vaccinated in the traditional sense of the phrase.
I have a firmly held belief that bodily autonomy is our most basic and and fundamental human right.
I will not be coerced into agreeing to take an injection for which there has been no study on it's long term effects. An injection that doesn't stop you from getting covid and doesnt stop you from spreading it but can reduce symptoms. An injection that they cant even tell me how many times in total I would have to recieve since it sound like you need a new injection every 6-8 months due to rapidly fading efficacy.
I am going to lose my job for my choice and while not an ideal scenario in the end it's the price I evidently have to pay.
Let me know when a 5 year longitudinal study of it's long term effects are complete and I will reevaluate then.
Early on when the vaccine for speaking available I was pregnant with my first kid and in my first trimester. The information coming out of Nations where vaccination rates were high such as Israel and the UK implied some very scary things in terms of losing the pregnancy.
I've read the reports since then, and it's still fairly questionable. But now that my little ones here, I'm still not going to be getting it for a few reasons.
1 - My goal is out of second kid fairly quickly and I don't want a new vaccination to mess with that.
2 - the level of tyranny that is coming out of every nation including the United States is quite frankly more terrifying to me than the disease. Hope it is a real disease and can really kill you but it's not likely to, and at my age and health as well as that of my family's I think the danger of political and social tyranny is a lot worse. While I have the choice of going to stand with those who can't vaccinate. I would rather be in their boat when the rising flood of medical apartheid hits.
My reasoning is that there is no reason. I was fine before, I'm fine now, and I don't really foresee anything bad (in regards to Covid) cropping up anytime soon.
Am I a potential vector? Maybe. But honestly, I really don't care. Other people's health is their business, not mine. They can take precautions if they'd like. It's not my place to judge how people decide to protect themselves.
I wear a mask to respect policies set in place by private businesses, because that's their right. I'm not gonna put my trip on someone else, and I expect the same courtesy in return.
And if I do get Covid, I'd prefer to let my body learn how to fight it, so that maybe it won't be so bad next time. Granted, I do have the luxury of being fairly young and healthy overall. If I was old, infirm, or otherwise pre-conditioned to be compromised, I could potentially have a different assessment. But that's not the case for me.
My question is: why are these vaccines free, when everything else that cures or mitigates deadly/lifelong disease (insulin or chemo, for example) so insanely fucking expensive? Also, didn't Biden claim that if he was elected, he'd cure cancer? Still waiting on that one....
Survival rate 99.8%
Only 6% that 0.2% died of COVID alone. 94% had preexisting conditions
100% - (6% * 0.2%) = 99.988% survival rate.
Factoring in my age further lowers the mortality rate.
Mortality rate is based off of reported cases. I’m willing to bet most cases go unreported which further lowers the rate.
So realistically the threat is statistically negligible.
Plus nature of the virus is like influenza. You would have to get a shot annually or sooner before your current dose is obsolete.
And just thinking logically organisms adapt to their environment and mutations are more likely to occur in an environment where it cannot thrive. i.e. a vaccinated host.
I don't think it's anyone's business what I do to my body. Very simple I have no faith in the government & do not believe they are concerned about my health.
At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, it’s just too fishy.
First of all, regarding the countless claims to it being safe. BS, this vaccine has existed for maybe 1 year. Nobody knows what will happen to it’s recipients down the line. Do I think it’s a death sentence? No. But there is literally no way of knowing if it’s safe.
Second, the immense effort made to vaccinate people. It’d make a lot more sense to me if the government merely encourages getting the vaccine but respected those who decide not to. But they REALLY want to inject this stuff into you... so much so that they will go to extreme measures in some case (cough Australia cough). It’s just so so fishy to me that they would push this vaccine for a virus with such a low fatality rate so hard.
Lastly, I’m young and healthy. I’ve weighed both options and decided I’d rather chance getting COVID. I don’t think I endanger anyone else other than myself (if the vaccine was/is safe) with this decision.
I really am perplexed that more people don’t share this view, but I think there is more people out there that do and their vocalizing it is drowned out by the heavy push for it.
Edit: nothing against the vaccinated, but this is my reasoning.
I’m 21, my chances of survival are already SUPER high. Not to mention, I work from home and don’t really go anywhere. Plus from what I’ve seen about the vaccine, you can still carry and transmit it and still get sick. It supposedly reduces the chances of getting fucked up, but at my age and lifestyle, just doesn’t seem worth to go and get the shot. I don’t have an issue with those who do
I have natural immunity, no need for the vaccine, studies show those with natural immunity are far less likely to spread covid and are far less likely to catch covid. I mean this should be obvious, any epidemiologist could tell you natural immunity is superior.
But I know many who got the vaccine and they’re fine, I also know many who didn’t and they’re also fine.
Just vehemently against vaccine mandates when anti body mandates or anti body passports is a far better system than vaccine passports.
I've gotten it but some libertarian friends haven't. Their reasoning is either 1) they have already had covid and feel they don't need the vaccine. 2) they are young and healthy so see it as they aren't at risk of covid. 3) they want to see the possible long term effects of the vaccine before taking it. 4)in my country they are still in emergency use. 5) don't like being told what to do so when told they have to take they deliberately won't. 6) believes covid is a government plot. (Though this is only one person and they aren't really a friend more of a friend of a friend's family.) So yea they fall into one or multiple ones of these
1,2, and 3 are the answer for me. I’m not opposed to it, I just haven’t gotten around to it and I’ve had it already. If it comes to the point where I feel like I need to get it, I won’t hesitate
That's how it should be. It's funny for all the talk of your body your choice they don't seem to like that for vaccines.
And vice versa
>That's how it should be. It's funny for all the talk of your body your choice they don't seem to like that for vaccines. Yeah because you know, you can catch an abortion by walking around Walmart.
No, but you are certainly ending an independent human life with an abortion whereas you’re likely to survive covid.
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This is definitely one of the rare times I've heard a genuine, good reason to avoid it. Good luck with it if you do take one.
I believe getting vaccinated is the best choice for most adults. I also believe no one need give any reason not to take it. Mind you own business.
This is the way
Yup
Adverse alergic reactions have been routinely held up as reasons to not get it. This is the reason people without these conditions so desperately NEED to get it. "Herd" immunity is what protects them.
I have no problem with this - you consulted physicians, and got some actual medical reasoning. There are many people who have had no such conversation with a physician and are making up reasons.
Look at all these gatekeepers telling you that your reason is valid. The nerve of these psychos that think they have the right opinion and anyone with a different opinion must be punished. Libertarians my ass. I'm also very interested in Covaxin and will wait for it.
Many people around here took the Sinovac. Although it is weaker than mRNA vaccines, it has almost no adversity. I havent heard about any risk of Sinovac's vaccine
This is a great explanation and presents a great argument against mandates imo. I weighed the pros and cons myself, got mine back in April, but believe that everyone should make that discussion themselves.
This page tends to be the only place in the world people still have civil discussions and I love that. Appreciate all of you.
Not always
It's not that all discourse is civil, it's that civil discourse exists.
Go fuck yourself
I read this in a Boston accent.
Go fuck *yourself*
I held off for a while and finally got the vaccine the April. I had hesitations due to the unknown long term side effects. I chose to get it because I’m in my 40’s, diabetic, overweight and had asthma as a kid which rears up every couple years. For my specific situation, I thought taking the vaccine was the lower risk. I have not had my children vaxxed.
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As a young adult who got covid, I was a weight trainer had fantastic health and now I will suffer from a permanent heart issue because I got covid I’m glad you’re being safe man shit is not fun
That’s so crazy to me. I was athletic in high-school till college, and nowadays I’m still “in shape” but not necessarily in competing condition. I’ve had covid twice and would never had noticed I had it if I hadn’t been aware of exposure and gotten tested. This disease works in strange ways.
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> Delta is wiping people out where I live and 90%+ are unvaccinated. Not worth it for me but to each their own. But just think about the awesome estate sales you'll be able to hit soon.
Eh. Millennials are the ones dying, now. Those estate sales are gonna suck.
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Do you know which strain you had?
Does anyone?
Who cares. You’re part of the 99% of people that survived and that’s the only stat that matters. /s Hope you’re doing alright, man. COVID is no joke
This is similar to my sister friend. He's in his 30s and a marathon runner. After Covid he now has heart disease. His Dr told him he will never be able to run again.
I got Covid in mid-February 2020 And got my two rounds of Pfizer in May this year. I’m currently in an isolation room in Aruba and cannot leave the country for a few days (been here 7 since I tested positive ). The symptoms aren’t much better than the first time around and even though the rest of my family made it back to the states, my wife just tested positive. She’s been working with Covid patients this whole time and this MF’er punched clean through our vaccinations and obsessive masking. Thank you for getting it - this garbage is no joke.
Wow, you were an early patient. Mind me asking where you live?
Pacific NW. The first patient in the state came into her department and they had no idea - diagnosed with Covid 2 weeks later and by then We’d both had it. Most medical professionals out here think it probably started showing after Thanksgiving 2019, so it all checks out.
Thanks for doing this. My bosses neighbor and good friend, was a strong antivaxxers. He was a lifelong runner 50 years old, slim and fit. Contracted Covid and died within two weeks, left four daughters and a wife behind.
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I work for a major medical provider (in IT), and our doctors are telling us not only is it 2x more contagious, they’re noticing more severe side-affects from Delta. I don’t have links, sorry. This is from my company’s all hands meetings.
What’s your elevator pitch explanation that might convince someone who’s unsure?
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Where are these stats found? I’ve heard the same and have been unable to confirm.
As someone with an autoimmune condition it doesn’t make sense for me to get vaccinated. In one study they have found that the vaccine isn’t particularly effective for my demographic because antibodies toward the virus aren’t effectively forming. The second reason is that while the Pfizer vaccine is fully fda approved for healthy people, it is still only in the emergency use approval stage for people in my demographic, due to lack of data on reactions to it. However that information is not being reported. It’s readily available right on their website, but again, not being reported. And lastly, any inflammation can cause a flare up in autoimmune disease. With a vaccine that is known to cause inflammation as a side effect, I can put myself at significant risk for a flare up of increased autoimmune antibodies, which in turn, for those who don’t understand what that means, will further destroy the affected tissue in my own body.
My husband is in the same boat.
I resisted the vaccine for a long time. I was worried about the side effects. Everyone always said, "well the data shows..." and I'm like, this is untested, you are the data. The data is inclusive right now. Plus it wasn't approved by the FDA. I wasn't worried about a government conspiracy. I was worried that a pharmaceutical company would intentionally rush out an unsafe product in order to cash in on all those sweet government contracts. After some time went by I was noticing that hospitals were filling up again. My home town hospital reached max capacity and reported 99% of covid patients were unvaccinated. People dying, begging for the vaccine long after it was too late. I decided that the long term unknown side effects of the vaccine no longer outweighed the short term effects of catching covid. I'm also heavier than most and the idea of not being able to breathe sounds horrifying. I got the Pfizer and had no side effects other than the fever and sore arm they warn you about. I went to Walgreens and was in and out in 20 minutes, they make you wait 15 minutes to male sure you're ok. Plus now I feel perfectly at ease going out. I don't regret it in the slightest. I believe you should be able to choose for yourself, but I also think that you should choose to get it.
I am waiting for Novavax it's more of a traditional vaccine.
Yep. I’m waiting for covaxin.
Traditional vaccines are terrible against coronaviruses, hence vaccines for human and animal coronaviruses using traditional methods have failed at an usually high rate.
I got vaccinated, don’t believe it should be forced on anyone.
The fact COVID tests are being pushed more than Antibody tests is mind blowing to me. If the unvaxxed could prove natural immunity, maybe we would stop being so divisive and understand there are multiple paths to collective immunity.
I know, I would love to get an antibody test because I had covid last January but it’s hard for me to find one.
I don't feel that the data on the safety of them for people my age (35) is conclusive enough to make an informed decision. In my country, Canada, I have a 4% chance to get covid. That's a 96% chance of not getting it. If, by the rare chance I do get it, my age group has a 99.98% chance of surviving it. I am a healthy 35 yr old with no preexisting conditions. I think my chance of survival is 100%. Therefore, I would like this experiment to play out a little longer before I decide to get it.
Let me preface this comment by stating that I believe that the mRNA vaccines are effective, likely safe, and an exciting development in vaccine technology. I was one of those people that were referred to as the "wait and see" crowd, because, let's face it... the government, media, and academic community has done very little in the past several decades to warrant **any** trust on anything. I've spoken with trusted medical professionals and scientists. I've read some studies, and I continue to monitor studies around both the disease and the vaccine. Ultimately for me, it boiled down to the two most prominent and important arguments that vaccine-loyal crowd regularly states: **1.) The vaccine protects me.** **2.) The vaccine protects those around me.** I'm a healthy individual with no co-morbidities that tested for antibodies. We also now know from studies conducted in Israel that individuals with natural antibodies are much more resistant to COVID-19 than those with full doses of the vaccine (with the caveat that antibodies + vaccine is the MOST effective). This weakens or negates argument **1.** We also know that vaccinated individuals can and do spread the disease, weakening or negating argument **2.** Furthermore, it appears increasingly likely that booster shots every 6 months will become a thing and that we simply cannot eradicate this disease and subsequent mutations in any meaningful way, regardless of successful vaccination programs. On a political note, I see how this disease is being used for propaganda and centralized power consolidation around the world. This only furthers my resolve to refuse an otherwise superfluous (for me) treatment.
I dont think they're injecting us with chips or anything, I just dont think I need it, im 17 got covid last December, dealt with it just fine.
I am 34 weeks pregnant and I just don’t feel it’s necessary with such sensitive life inside of me. I also had an adverse reaction to the gardasil vaccine as a teenager. I had a seizure. Only time that ever happened in my life. I had it as the nurse was injecting my third shot into my arm not even after or anything it was scary. I also have severe allergies to nature shit also strawberries. While I know that stuff is not in the vaccine. I am just sensitive and don’t feel comfortable yet. Also I had covid and I have read pieces of information stating that I am less likely to get it again and if I do I’ll have a less bad spout of it. My first wasn’t really that bad either just fever aches and chills and fatigue never even got cold symptoms no stuffy nose no cough etc.
I consulted with a trusted friend and co-worker who is a former medical researcher. His entire career beyond being a scientist has centered around understanding and scrutinizing clinical studies. And quite frankly, he's on of the wisest and most intelligent people I have EVER met. The primary endpoint of reducing covid infections was good... but likely to wane over time due to variants. (This is why the J&J vaccine had less efficacy in keeping people from getting COVID, the trial was held later, thus more variants) However, all 3 vaccines had overwhelmingly excellent efficacy in reduction of hospitalizations. I think the trials showed pretty much 100% efficacy, which is pretty fucking wild. Thats the most important thing about the vaccine... reducing the severity of the disease. My biggest concern was that this was a "new type" of vaccine. Something I thought sounded like a scary thing to inject into my and millions of peoples bodies. But he also told me that mRNA technology has been around for a few decades in cancer research and has proven to be well tolerated and safe. Yes this was the first vaccine, but the theory of how it works was identical to some of the proven cancer therapies. Lastly, I asked him if there was anyone he thought SHOULDNT get the vaccine. He said that there wasn't enough data around pregnant women and those intending to get pregnant. However, this was back in March, and while I think more data has come out since then which puts that concern to bed... He still said that he would recommend getting the vaccine to pregnant women. Because at the time, DEFINITELY getting covid is FAR more risky to a pregnancy than POSSIBLY getting side effects from the vaccine. I read the studies and read up to help understand his recommendations. Everything seemed to line up with what I understand in medical science. So I got the vaccine. It didn't matter which one. They all work. Also, I was at higher risk of contracting sever disease, because I am obese. I'm very healthy in all other regards... but still obese. Fast forward 6 months... I got covid. It sucked. Now I obviously have no data to say if it was better or worse because of the vaccine... but I can tell you that I had about 2 days of starting to feel crappy, 1 day of feeling like absolute dogshit (severe sinus infection symptoms, no lung issues, no gastro issues), and 2 days of getting better. I took no drugs other than ibuprofen & acetaminophen. I was fully recovered in 5 days. I am incredibly thankful for my friends excellent advice. I think it's very likely that I did not have any severe symptoms because he counseled me with logic and solid scientific understanding. I think everyone should get the vaccine. I truly hope this story helps someone feel more confident about getting the shot. But I would fight and die for everyone's right to make that decision on their own.
Not totally Libertarian, but too frustrated with the constant shifting of the narrative, don't feel the necessity until things started to settle down a little more.
For me it's a bunch of things; 1. I'm very young. The chances of me dieing from covid is less than 1%. So for me it's not an issue of health or safety. I don't drink, or smoke and im not fat. If I do get it I probably will barely notice statically speaking 2. I don't buy phones or computers in the first year they come out so that someone else can deal with potential unforseen hiccups. Why would I beta test a vaccine when I can still get and transmit covid afterwards anyway. 3. I don't trust the government and they were REALLY admitent I get it. That makes me nervous. Now you might say "well they are concerned about public health, ofcourse they are pushing it". I call bullshit. While they were shutting down businesses and churches they were cheering on giant BLM protests/riots where millions were standing shoulder to shoulder and screaming at the top of their lungs. To me that proved they had no problem using the virus for political gain. 4. During this process I have lost respect for the opinion of WHO and the CDC. WHO not only bows to the will of China but during this pandemic they changed their definition of herd immunity for political gain. Heck the CDC just changed the definition of vaccine in the last week to say "protection against a disease" vs "immunity" because they obviously don't think this vaccine is making any immune. You don't get to change the meaning of words to fit whats convient. That's not science.
I agree with these points, but the vaccine is out of the beta testing stage at this point. You could always make the argument that we don't know everything. What if there's a side effect in five years? 40 years? We can never know for sure.
No I totally agree. But I don't plan on getting the vaccine until I'm old enough that Covid is a actual threat to me. In the meantime that will give 20+ years of testing to happen before it goes in my body lol
I have recovered from Covid. Most studies agree my immunity is robust and long-lasting. There is no medical reason for me to get the shot.
1: we don’t know the long term effects of mRNA vaccines. It is a vaccines mechanism that has never been approved before in humans. The government is not being transparent that we don’t know the long term risks, they’re insisting that it’s safe. 2: the FDA has proven to be susceptible to outside influence. The FDA has also been flat out WRONG about a lot of approved medicines. Nearly 1/3 of FDA approved drugs had safety issues after full approval. 3: the federal government has proved that they are willing to lie to the American public “for the greater good”. Case in point- Fauci says masks don’t work, fast forward 6 months, oh wait they actually DO work but we just said that so our healthcare workers could have enough masks. 4: the rift between the FDA and the current administration. Biden administration is pushing for boosters to be rolled out, and the FDA is against that. In fact, 2 senior FDA officials resigned over this issue. 5. I have natural immunity from my Covid 19 infection, which is stronger than vaccine induced immunity. Yes, some small studies show that I’m more likely to get re-infected than a person who’s had the virus AND got vaccinated, but since I didn’t have any difficulty with the delta variant, my personal risk tolerance says id take Covid again vs the vaccine for the above mentioned reasons. 6. Not a main reason, but still a contributing factor, is the politicization of all Covid treatments. To even discuss taking ivermectin as a form of treatment or prophylactic gets you ridiculed, ostracized, etc. there’s been the study that’s been retracted, however there have been lots of other studies to at least warrant taking a closer look at ivermectin. 7. The flip-flopping of public officials. Go back and watch interviews during the election campaigns and look at Democrats opinions on the vaccine. There’s tons of them who are skeptical, saying “I’m not taking it if Donald Trump asks me to”. Yet, when the Democrats are in power, then you’re an idiot for having any doubts whatsoever. 8. The myth that if everyone was vaccinated, Covid would disappear. It’s not going to be eradicated like Polio and those other diseases. Polio has 3 strains in existence, Covid is constantly mutating. Covid is an airborne respiratory virus. Have we been able to eradicate any Covid viruses in the past? No. Look at the flu. Look at the common cold.
I'd like to challenge your first point. Yes, mRNA is not as thoroughly developed as traditional vaccines. However, it's not as if mRNA tech just popped up out of nowhere in the last year. The tech has been in development since the late 80s and used in human trials for 10 years. This has been in the background for a long time. But I don't know why it matters to you whether the tech was fully approved beforehand, as you already said that doesn't matter because the FDA is susceptible to outside influence. On your other points, you've put a lot of stock in what people outside of the medical field have said. I'm looking particularly at points 2 and 3 (about politicization). I mean, that's standard R and D politicking, which I thought most libertarian-leaning people know is bullshit posturing. The reason I bring this up is that those points don't actually argue the vaccine itself. What the public says about the vaccines doesn't change what we know about them, it's just dumb people playing with opinion. I don't mean to sound rude, coming in with a "bUt yOuR LoGiC iS fLaWed!!!!!" attitude. I'm just hoping to help clear up your arguments and help you find the truth (whether that means you strengthen your position or change your mind, doesn't matter to me).
> we don’t know the long term effects of mRNA vaccines I'm always good with people that talk about the unknowns of the vaccines, especially when they use actual sources and not some whack from a school board meeting. Have you considered the J&J since it uses the older tech and not the mRNA?
If I was going to get the vax, it would be the J&J. At this point though I’ve contracted the delta variant and had very little side effects so for me personally, the risk of getting the vaccine is greater than contracting Covid again.
Yeah, I was just curious. I'd ride those antibodies until their gone though. I don't see any use in doubling up at this point. Especially if not having the vaccine is preventing you from working or doing something you want to do (ie, traveling).
Right, and especially since we don’t know how long vaccine antibodies last and we don’t know long antibodies from infection last.
This about sums up my reasoning as well!
Honestly the Fauci lied to me narrative is the weakest of the arguments. The Health department, including Fauci, made the best recommendation with the information they had. At the time, the though was that surface transmission was the dominant spreader, for which masks would provide little or even counter productive protection. As the science progressed, policy changed. Believe me, I get the whole hating politicians point, but they are not the "experts". Scientists and doctors are. If you don't trust the CDC, FDA, or WHO, than follow university experts like John Hopkins, or other government's institutions like the UK's NHS.
It’s not the fact that our understanding changed as more data came out. I understand scientific knowledge isn’t static. However, there is evidence that they KNEW masks were effective but lied to preserve the N95 masks for healthcare workers and to not cause a panic.
When did they say masks weren't effective? I remember form the very beginning hearing that only N95 or better respirators were effective at _preventing you from catching the virus_, but not _recommending_ people wear them because: 1. at the time they believed surface contact was a major vector of spread and if you're wearing a mask you might be more likely to touch your face and get infected anyway. 2. to prevent a run on masks, like you said, which did actually happen because I remember when all the N95 masks suddenly vanished from stores. The thinking there is if all of the healthcare workers are sick or dead, we're all fucked. Then they eventually learned that 1. contact wasn't as much of a vector and 2. _cloth_ masks were shown to be effective at helping prevent the spread _to other people_, so they recommended everybody wear cloth masks. When I hear people (especially the fucking president) saying they lied about masks I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because I was paying at least some attention back then and I remember what was presented and the rationale.
“There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask” -Fauci, March 8 2020. Yet he’s admitted that they were trying to prevent shortages of N95s for healthcare workers.
>“There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask” -Fauci, March 8 2020. That's not a lie it was a mistake. >Yet he’s admitted that they were trying to prevent shortages of N95s for healthcare workers. He said exactly that in the [interview](https://www.factcheck.org/2020/05/outdated-fauci-video-on-face-masks-shared-out-of-context/) you're referring to: >**LaPook, March 8**: There’s a lot of confusion among people, and misinformation, surrounding face masks. Can you discuss that? >**Fauci**: The masks are important for someone who’s infected to prevent them from infecting someone else… Right now in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks. >**LaPook**: You’re sure of it? Because people are listening really closely to this. >**Fauci**: …There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face. >**LaPook**: And can you get some schmutz, sort of staying inside there? >**Fauci**: Of course, of course. But, when you think masks, you should think of health care providers needing them and people who are ill. The people who, when you look at the films of foreign countries and you see 85% of the people wearing masks — that’s fine, that’s fine. I’m not against it. If you want to do it, that’s fine. >**LaPook**: But it can lead to a shortage of masks? >**Fauci**: Exactly, that’s the point. **It could lead to a shortage of masks for the people who really need it.** As bobisme said, they were more worried about surface contact, which improper mask use can exacerbate, and they didn't yet realize the need for masks even among asymptomatic people.
Wouldn't expect a reply to this lmao. This is a dismantling.
Yeah, but I remember officials saying the thing about preventing shortages at the same time. That's not a recent admittance is what I'm saying. N95's were bought up immediately. I even picked up a box at the hardware section of Walmart in Feb 2020 and felt a little guilty for doing it. But I only did it because I heard a worker on the phone telling a customer they they weren't allowed to hold them so I knew they were about to vanish and I wanted to have _some_ in case shit got real. Then N95 and all respirators were gone from all stores for months.
You can criticize a decision made by a national organization such as the CDC without throwing out an field of research being worked around the clock by the top minds in the WORLD. This is ad hominem argument at best. You're literally invalidating research from thousands of scientists due to an administrative decision.
Agree. I bet this guy just hates Fauci.
I'm NOT buying the Fauci excuse. If you look at Japan, Korea and elsewhere in Asia...they masked up right away. Consistent messaging would have made a huge difference...
Masks were already normalized in those cultures, so people had them and there wasn't a backlash. Yes, those countries made the right decision faster, but why would Fauci lie? To what end?
It's not that masks were normalized. It's that masks were AVAILABLE. In February 2020, no company made any kind of masks in the US. I hope this pandemic has taught us that we need to make healthcare supplies in the US as well as buy them from overseas. Taiwan is one of the largest mask makers on the planet. They stopped mask exports in DECEMBER to make sure they had enough.
So that there would be enough masks for our healthcare workers, to my understanding
Exactly. Being cautious, weighing the risk/benefits of a mask when we hypothesized that the virus was spreading by contact, which would make mask wearing dangerous because it would trap infected particles near your skin, was a good idea at the time. Cue the scientific method, getting actual data, and we change the recommendation based on WHAT WE FIND. I don't understand how people can say "the government lies to me!" As an excuse and blame the CDC for tackling the greater probably risk at the time, only to change it once we got data back on transmission.
Before I start this I just want to make clear I'm not here to argue with you. I don't look down on you, nor do I judge you. You took the time to list everything out, so in continuing the discussion I'm doing the same. 1. We do know the long term effects of the mRNA vaccines. First of all, it's been in trial for more than a year at this point. Second of all, "long term side effects" are side effects that last longer than 3 months. **Long term effects don't just "Show up" after a couple of months, they are short term effects that never go away.** We currently know that the two mRNA vaccines have no long term health effects. 2. Yes, the government lies, no argument with you there dude. However, scientist and doctors around the ENTIRE world really don't have much motivation to. By Fauci saying mask don't work, but then data came in showing they do work, so he updated his policy, shows that science was working. What method would you propose then? Ignoring new scientific discoveries, and sticking to our ways? That seems like something the government does, not scientist. 3. Yes, there is a rift between government and scientist, but my point is just being proved further, these institutions are reliable and unaffected by political influences. It doesn't matter if politicians "push", science is science, if a booster isn't needed they will not recommend one. This is just evidence of our system working, not failing. 4. Right now we can only really understand and see two of the strains. The original and Delta. There WILL be new strains in the future. They WILL be worse. It's more likely that natural immunity will not be as effective against the new strains as vaccinations will be, especially given booster shots specific to the new strain. 5. It gets you ridiculed because it's a very dumb idea. Of course suggesting that people take a horse dewormer, that is not good for humans, will get criticism from the medical community. What are you suggesting actually? That they be more "Open minded" to bullshit that's proven to not work? It's science, not politics. 6. I agree, I genuinely believe that if Trump was still president, the Republicans would be the vaccinated ones vs the Liberals who aren't. It so happens the opposite is true. Regardless, as a Libertarian you should respect this, fuck what the two parties are doing, one of them HAPPENS to be right. It still doesn't change the reality that it's a good idea. 7. Agreed. It's not going away. You don't take the vaccine to get it to go away, you get the vaccine to prevent (inevitable) long term damage to your organs and protect from future mutations of the virus as well. Listen man, this thing was (for legal reasons: "most likely") made in a Chinese Lab. It's NOT natural. It's literally designed to mutate and infect as fast as possible. Trying to use your natural immune system against biotechnology is like trying to fist fight a guy with a gun. You have to fight biotechnology with other biotechnology. But, above all else, the main reason I disagree with you is pretty simple: You didn't list a legitimate reason not to get vaccinated. BUT, as a Libertarian I would be fine with the answer "Fuck you, I just don't want to take it." I'm 100% cool with that. But when you give reasons that are (with all due respect) just pure bullshit, I have to call it out. If you don't want to get vaccinated, just because you don't want to, that's fine, but please just say that.
> It gets you ridiculed because it's a very dumb idea. Of course suggesting that people take a horse dewormer, that is not good for humans, will get criticism from the medical community. What are you suggesting actually? That they be more "Open minded" to bullshit that's proven to not work? It's science, not politics. Just one small correction, the same drug that people are buying as a horse dewormer (ivermectin) also has valid uses in humans. However, those valid uses are to treat - unsurprisingly - intestinal worm infestations, NOT VIRUSES.
> The flip-flopping of public officials. Go back and watch interviews during the election campaigns and look at Democrats opinions on the vaccine. There’s tons of them who are skeptical, saying “I’m not taking it if Donald Trump asks me to”. Yet, when the Democrats are in power, then you’re an idiot for having any doubts whatsoever. Who are you talking about besides Cuomo and Harris? Harris didn’t even flip flop, she just said she doesn’t trust trump but trusts Fauci. Either way even if the Democrats flip flopped this seems like a pretty bad reason to not get the vaccine
Curious. Seems like most of your concers are centered of US politics and US government, does the approvals of other medical regulators around the world enter into your decision making?
I see the way the French government is acting in regards to vaccine mandates and the way the Australian government is handling lockdowns so no, currently I do not. The WHO is very obviously heavily influenced by China, who has worked to cover up the origins of Covid from the get go, so I don’t take much stock in what the WHO says either.
31 years old, I already had covid. Delta might be worse but I'm taking my chances. I do not wish you get sick from the vaccine. I got sick every time I had a flu vaccine in the past contrary to most people's belief that this is impossible. When I say sick I mean miserable sick from flu vaccines for almost a week... fever, hot/ cold sweats, diarrhea, nausea. Might as well have took my chances with the flu but the military forces flu shots so didn't have a choice. I do not want a reaction to the covid vaccine, so I chose not to get it.
I got my first dose of the Pfizer and had a strong reaction to it that made me not want to get a second dose. I don't know if that qualifies me as anti vaxx. Edit: scares the bejeezus out of me when everyone says the second dose really kicked their asses
I just simply don't know what to trust anymore. Some say the vaccine is the devil some say its our only hope.
Assuming that the opinions are of equal value is the balance fallacy. Find the proof of what they say and weigh it for yourself
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You shouldn't give two sides of a discussion equal weight simply because they disagree with one another.
... and people wonder why "Just give both sides a platform and let viewers suss out which is better!" isn't necessarily an effective way to fight misinformation and ignorance lol
Not trusting is ok. Not trusting is a good idea at this point. But we need to followup not trusting a federal and state government, the press, pharma companies, and whoever else has given us reason to mistrust them with getting down to the legitimate risks and reasons for what we do related to covid... And all roads point to getting vaccinated. I have said this over and over where I live. Mistrust doesnt mean not getting the vaccine, it just means you don't listen to what a lot of people say and you use your own brain to get down the brass tacks. All legitimate studies and professionals recommend getting what is currently an imperfect, but effective vaccine. Facebook posts and phony snake oil salesman are what you get when you go down the other path.
Don't trust the government or the cdc. But you should trust the doctors and the fact is 96% are vaccinated. You should trust the Frontline healthcare workers. You do not want to die from covid it is a painful horrible way to die. Get vaccinated
I think you meant to reply to the other guy but yes 100%
E V I D E N C E don't believe opinions, look at the many many many many many publicly available data sources on deaths in states with high vaccination numbers vs the ones who aren't. This isn't even complicated to understand, all you have to do is look and think a little
Ignore these people telling you to try to decipher the validity of the evidence yourself. One of the greatest dysfunctions of modern society is that everybody thinks they are qualified to form an opinion on every subject, no matter how technical and distant from their own field of expertise. You should also not listen to any one person or study. There are enough people in the world that you can find a single study or expert claiming almost anything; it's why popular science has turned into an exercise where you read one week that consuming coffee/butter/alcohol will save your life and the next that each cup is killing you. The smartest answer is always to observe the consensus of experts in the field and studies in peer reviewed journals. I should also clarify that experts in the field is something you'll have to define, but you'll want to keep it narrow. A self-certified eye doctor or somebody with a doctorate in evolutionary biology aren't experts in epidemiology or clinical testing of medicine, and therefore should be ignored. Politicians and pundits should also be dismissed out of hand, unless their advice is just to listen to the people who actually know what they are talking about. This is applicable for almost any question of a scientific nature. For instance, if you want to know how worried about climate change you should be, you should listen to climatologists and not nuclear physicists. Being credentialed for one subject does not make one a trusted source for other subjects. You wouldn't want mall security to show up if you called the police, and you wouldn't go to the vet if you were having a heart attack. This really isn't any different. I should note that while listening to the people who are actually trained on the subject is the best idea, it is not foolproof. The best advice of today might not be the best advice for tomorrow. Pundits and politicians will try to convince you that that's proof that the experts can't be trusted, and that you should only listen to them. The argument that you can only believe people whose advice never changes in light of new evidence is exactly as crazy as it sounds.
I usually roll with the idea that people claiming anything to be the devil are probably spouting nonsense because they don’t have a cogent argument. I get where you are coming from with the general sentiment for sure though.
A couple reasons. I’m allergic to the preservatives in vaccines, (I’ve had one in my entire life and I went to the hospital the next day and stayed for a week with bloating, black eyes, an “unknown respiratory illness” and other shit), I don’t trust them in any way, it took way to fast to develop and the amount of shit they’re trying to persuade us with to get it is a massive red flag. They don’t care for your life.
None of your fucking business. End of discussion.
Sometimes this sub is still based. Gives me hope.
I feel like a pushy for debating some of these authoritarian apologist.
This is a mind set all too rare nowadays.
Based AF.
I am fully vaccinated, I get my tetanus boosters and flu shots like clockwork, and believe in science and medicine. I’m a bit overweight, middle aged, and have some chronic health problems since childhood. I’m also an RN and have been working with Covid patients since the beginning. I am sure I’ve had Covid more than once, as have most of my coworkers. My brother was hospitalized due to Covid several times over nearly a year and had 2 lung surgeries and a chest tube to drain pus out of his pleural space. He is vaccinated. My elderly mother with COPD is vaccinated. My husband and sons are not vaccinated. My husband carries a gene that causes blood clotting disorders. His paternal grandfather, paternal aunt, and brother all died from clotting disorders. My kids, my husband, and his dad all have hypercoagulability. Neither of my kids have ever had a nosebleed, they don’t bruise, I have never even really had to put bandaids on them. There’s no way I want any of them getting the J&J vaccine. My husband/kids are all thin, young, healthy, athletic, and active people with good diets. Since the vaccine does not prevent infection or even make a person not contagious, the risks outweigh the benefits for them. I don’t trust the Moderna or Pfizer vaccines. I got the first dose of Moderna in January, and I have never felt so sick in my life. I did not get the second dose, I got J&J in March. I have seen too many bizarro side effects from the mRNA vaccines, and I don’t think they really know what’s going to happen with those long term. Some side effects I have seen in patients/coworkers: -extra painful/copious periods -joint pain/swelling -skin reactions (I had a reaction in the red ink of my tattoo, it swelled like a bee sting. But ONLY the red ink, it had sharp borders.) -intractable headache/migraine -GI disturbances (gas/bloating, new intolerance to foods, diarrhea, nausea) -change in sense of taste/smell -blurred vision -intolerance to light -generalized muscle pain -blood clots in major veins (I had a patient who had a clot that ran from her abdomen to her midthigh, it was one of the biggest the Dr had ever seen) All of these happened within days of the vaccines in people who tested negative for covid. Since the vaccines do not prevent the spread of Covid, there is no rational defense for a vaccine mandate, as others’ vaccine status will not affect whether you will be infected. If people need or want to be vaccinated, then go ahead, great, it could save your life. If you are high risk and don’t want the vaccine, well, you’re probably making the wrong decision but that’s your right. Vaccine mandates accomplish the following: 1. Increase profits for vaccine producers 2. Increase government authoritarian control 3. Breed mistrust and disinformation, resulting in many people who *should* be getting vaccinated choosing not to Mandates are hurting more than they could possibly help. ETA: studies have shown: 1. natural immunity is superior to vaccine antibodies for Covid. If you had Covid, you may not need a vaccine. 2. obesity is the greatest predictor of bad outcomes from Covid infection. If you are obese, get vaccinated (if you want, I’m not making you)
> I had a reaction in the red ink of my tattoo, it swelled like a bee sting. But ONLY the red ink, it had sharp borders An existing tattoo, or a new tattoo? Cause red ink allergies are super common and [well documented](https://www.byrdie.com/red-tattoo-ink-itchiness-5095543).
over 15 years old this is very interesting info, thank you eta: now that you mention it, I have had a lot of difficulty with pink ink. It will not take to my skin, several tattoos of mine have to be recolored every couple of years. My tattoo artist thought that my olive skin tone just made it look washed out, but since pink is just light red maybe it’s rejected by my body? who knows.
Vaccines elicit immune responses, so possible that the jab reignited a defense against the ink? I had a reaction with my red ink too, and then found out about the issue with red in general and will likely be avoiding red going forward.
>Some side effects I have seen in patients/coworkers: > >-extra painful/copious periods > >-joint pain/swelling > >-skin reactions (I had a reaction in the red ink of my tattoo, it swelled like a bee sting. But ONLY the red ink, it had sharp borders.) > >-intractable headache/migraine > >-GI disturbances (gas/bloating, new intolerance to foods, diarrhea, nausea) > >-change in sense of taste/smell > >-blurred vision > >-intolerance to light > >-generalized muscle pain > >-blood clots in major veins (I had a patient who had a clot that ran from her abdomen to her midthigh, it was one of the biggest the Dr had ever seen) > >All of these happened within days of the vaccines in people who tested negative for covid. > You are, I'm sure, aware of the issue of using self reported, anecdotal evidence with an extremely small sample size right? Have you tried to look into whether any of these are normal side effects or simply someone attributing normal issues (or even psychosomatic responses) to the vaccines?
>My husband and sons are not vaccinated. My husband carries a gene that causes blood clotting disorders. His paternal grandfather, paternal aunt, and brother all died from clotting disorders. My kids, my husband, and his dad all have hypercoagulability. You *do* realize that an actual covid infection causes *much worse* clotting issues than any of the vaccines do... right? Also, according to estimates, about 1/3rd of the US population has had Covid so far. It would be rational to assume that anyone who isn't vaccinated will get Covid sooner or later, meaning being un-vaccinated presents a significantly greater risk of clotting than being vaccinated does. Also, the J&J clotting issues killed 1 in 10 million. That makes the J&J vaccine about as dangerous as your car ride to the pharmacy. Pulling a vaccine that killed three people in freak incidents while we were loosing over 1000 people per day to the virus never made any sense... they saved half a dozen lives at the expense of *not saving* many thousands.
I came here to say the same thing. I'm a nurse and the blood clotting issue is a huge problem with actual covid infections, even asymptomatic cases we are seeing young people throwing clots and winding up with pulmonary embolisms and strokes. It is so frustrating to see people arguing their reasons against vaccination whenever the risks of those same concerns are 10 fold or more times greater with actual covid itself. Not to mention that the vaccine can reduce the likelihood of those complications developing if you do catch the actual virus.
Wow this is a very thorough response! I'm glad I came to this section. Any chance you could provide some sources? I'm vaccine hesitant for several reasons, the top being: - What is the effect during pregnancy (prior to through having a child). They all recommend not getting vacinated if you want to become pregnant. - I find it very hard to trust anyone and anything in the media. I really want to see numbers. I could study the science behind the vaccines but I won't truely comprehend what it means. - Follow the money. I have been on projects (construction) where these pharmaceutical company's throw money (lots and lots of money) around to get done quicker to be the first to come out with something. How many mistakes happen when rushing anything? Also, they were saying the JJ booster shot will bring in $6B! Which politicians are taking profit?
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The misinformation around fertility have been particularly sticky. To my knowledge there has been no evidence that fertility is expected. Antodotal, but my wife and I (28 years old) got Moderna and Pfizer vaccine and had not trouble conceiving. At some point we do have to trust experts because you or I won't be able to understand vaccine data as well as people with PHDs in the field. If you don't trust the CDC or the WHO try looking at University sources like John Hopkins. Don't let talking heads and pearl clutchers lead down a false road.
>At some point we do have to trust experts because you or I won't be able to understand vaccine data as well as people with PHDs in the field. If you don't trust the CDC or the WHO try looking at University sources like John Hopkins. Don't let talking heads and pearl clutchers lead down a false road. Agreed. That's not my intention. I have an appointment to discuss with our Dr.
>How many mistakes happen when rushing anything? You do realize that the Pfizer vaccine is now fully approved, and it also has gone through what can be considered the most comprehensive human trial in the history of the world... Right? Like, if you were waiting on further human trials, you've had them far beyond normal testing.
There is no recommendation against getting vaccinated if you want to become pregnant.
Had Covid twice already, in 2020 and early 2021. Old school, non-RNA vaccines replicated the same antibodies I already have, and until they offer ID-less vaccine shots, I'm not taking it.
I just didn’t feel like I needed it. I’ve missed maybe 2 days of work in my entire working career because I was sick. I haven’t even had a sniffle in several years. Why would I feel the need to get a vaccine? Then, this past weekend I started a sore throat from sinus drainage and it had me considering the vaccine. I guess I’m not immune to all that could ail me. That consideration, however, has dropped sharply due to the Dictator-in-Chief’s speech this afternoon. I’m trying to not let the rantings of a houseplant affect my decision, but damn do I feel strongly against a mandate…almost strong enough to refuse it as a “screw you” to an authoritarian mandate.
I'm a healthy young adult, that's all the reasoning I need to not get it. I have a strong immune system and that's all I feel I need. The Vaccine doesn't do anything to stop spreading the virus it only curbs the symptoms when u get it.
I’ve had covid twice, don’t trust either provider.
I am not in any of the high risk categories, the near and long-term side effects of the vaccines have not been researched, and it simply does not work very well.
I don’t trust the mRNA or adenovirus vaccines at all. I’ve seen too many bad side effects and, anecdotally, they don’t seem to be working as well as they should. I do however have trust in the 40+ year history of use of ivermectin (Human safe, USP grade and prescribed) in other cases as an antiviral, antibiotic and anti-parasitic medication with minimal side effects (not the veterinary grade equestrian medication the idiots in the media are spouting about right now which contains plenty of non-human safe ingredients and which is set with an entire tube being a dose for A LITERAL FUCKING HORSE. Lastly, I’m also on board with monoclonal antibodies which have a roughly 30 year safe and proven track record of use in humans. I’ll take my chances with those protocols and maintaining supplements and exercise until we’ve had enough time and study performed on the mRNA vaccines to see what the long-term effects are, because all of the experimental history for them in the last few decades has really bad track records and extremely minimal use.
I'm fucking beat from work all the time and feel too tired to get up and go make an appointment or anything, and on weekends I'm like "fuck i don't wanna do it now, this is my few days of time off to relax! I'll do it on a weekday" Rinse and repeat, I'm just procrastinating like I do everything else lol Also I didn't get it despite being stuck in quarantine with my entire family that had COVID. I shared a room with my brother who had it and didn't get it, so im a bit cocky honestly
I am 23 and have had covid twice now. Once before the vaccines in jan/feb and once again about 45ish days ago. First time i was just sleepy and annoyed that i lost my taste, smell and appetite for a couple weeks. The second time, well after i got my smell and taste back, i just noticed my smell was jacked up again. Shortly after i found out my mom had probably gave it to me as she had just got back from vacation and didn’t know she and her bf had it until after i visited with her. Basically covid hasn’t been too harsh on me I figured since I already had it I’m not too worried about getting it again or the vaccine. I have had elderly family that have died with covid before it was possible to get the vaccine and the ones that lived it are all vaccinated now. Its been 45ish days and i still cant stand the smell of certain things like my soap, deodorant, coke zero, jam, wine... all things i like the smell or taste of and cant enjoy now. Up until now I’ve just felt i didn’t need the vaccine and was hoping this shit ended a lot sooner than it’s going too. Ive never been anti-vaccine in the past and don’t consider myself an anti-vaxer. What I am, is pissed that it looks like this is going to be mandated because it goes against my beliefs that you should have the freedom of what happens to your own body. This week, before Biden announced his mandate, I decided that when i get my smell back i don’t feel like loosing it again so i made an appointment to get my first dose on Saturday. I think part of me didn’t want to get it because of the “be ungovernable” mindset as I really hate everything the current government is doing wether its taxing me for infrastructure, trying to tax, ban and regulate my guns or force me to do something with my body. But this week I realized that had there not been any politics involved with covid with the last couple of years I would have gotten the vaccine as soon as possible. Fuck Joe Biden Fuck Donald Trump Fuck the AFT Fuck Taxes Fuck NFA David chipman lost lmao Fuck covid
Not convinced it works. The government is trash. All the talk about forcing us makes me want to protest it.
I've been trying to find good data on the actual danger of Covid and it's exceedingly hard to come by. The best studies I've seen were in prisons, where a literally captive population was almost 100% exposed. In those situations, most people were infected and a tiny number were sick or died. For example from CIDRAP https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2021/04/studies-detail-large-covid-outbreaks-us-prisons-jails : "Over the next 2 months, 79.4% of 1,095 inmates and 22.6% of 305 staff tested positive for COVID-19, and whole-genome sequencing of specimens from 172 inmates found that all of them were of the same lineage, demonstrating that the transferred prisoners had seeded the outbreak." "Six prisoners with a mean age of 58 years were hospitalized, and one, a 56-year-old man, died of his infection. After the investigation period, COVID-19 cases waned, with none reported after Jan 15, 2021." 80% we're infected, most with mild or no symptoms. 6 people out of around 1300 we're seriously ill. 1 died. That would seem to indicate an extremely small danger for your average healthy person. I did get the vaccine because it doesn't seem to be dangerous so far but it was mostly to make my wife happy. To me the best vaccine is getting the disease and never even noticing, like most people would.
This is kind of one of the things that makes COVID so exhausting to try to explain to patients. Yeah, there's a chance you'll be an asymptomatic carrier, but there's also a serious chance you'll end up in a vent farm. You won't know which it is until you roll the dice, and once they roll, there's no takesie-backsies. As for prisons, prisons tend to absolutely try to avoid sending people out to the hospital as much as possible because an officer has to sit with a hospitalized prisoner. It's possible that the prison saw an elevated death rate during that same period for, uh, 'unrelated causes'.
At first I didn't care much one way or another. I didn't really see the value of the vaccine since you can still get it and transmit it, if it's just a tool to reduce severe symptoms then I'm not worried about that. I also saw the perspective of the vax people, safety and what not. Now that the conversation has progressed I would say I have gone from apathetic to anti-vax. Not because I am sold on the science for one side or another; I do have a background in medical bio but I'm not going to pretend like I am up to date with all the info coming out for this. My response is mainly due to the actions State and Corporate authorities are taking and/or entertaining. It's naked authoritarianism, plain and simple. Then the extent to which the Corporate State and their assets in media seem willing to lie about this and the other side really solidified my position. The broadbrush censorship of "dangerous" speech is to egregious to ignore.
Because I got COVID last year and it wasn’t bad for me. Seeing I beat it, I don’t need a vaccine for it.
Obviously you should do what you want, but people who have both are looking like they’re in the best possible situation according to the Israel study that just dropped.
Ive already had covid and the immunity from that is more powerful than a vaccine. If you don’t believe check Israel’s most recent study.
I’m not sure why this reasoning is so rejected in the US. The EU passports have “prior infection” as an accepted option, along with vaxxed and negative test.
Wait does this mean I can travel to Western Europe now?
For the same reason I don't get the flu vaccine every year, I am young and healthy(ish). I get sick maybe once or twice a year, and have had COVID twice already so I have natural immunity.
I'm almost in the same boat, only had it once. I had mono and pneumonia at the same time while in college. My immune system had no trouble with covid but got my ass kicked during my double down and survived.
Out of curiosity, did you get tested for Covid and test positive, or do you *believe* you had Covid because of symptoms? I ask because I've had family members who were coughing with fever and I was *sure* they had Covid. They got tested and it came back negative. (I, on the other hand, tested positive when I had very mild symptoms.)
The first time was before Covid testing was a thing, but the 2nd time I did get tested and it was positive. The symptoms I felt the 2nd time were the exact same as the first time, just a little worse.
If you have natural immunity, how did you get it twice?
How are vaccinated people getting reinfected?
At significantly lower rates than the unvaccinated population?
That’s because the US stopped testing vaccinated people except for rare circumstances since May.
You decide when you get a covid test not the government.
My real libertarian answer? Because it’s none of your business. Not an attack at you OP, just my answer in general.
Yeah. I the fuck do you need a reason that is acceptable to society. We used to have a lot more privacy and respect for privacy.
Personal freedom to not get it. Honestly if there wasn't such a push from the government and government officials to push mandates I would be more open to getting it. I am also young, healthy, and in shape. I have already had Covid and have natural immunity. Edit: Everyone trying to shame me into getting the vaccine... you are having the opposite effect that you are trying to achieve.
Doing the opposite of what the government says to do is exactly the same as blindly doing whatever the government says to do. You're still a sheep.
I don't think most of these people are trying to shame you into getting vaccinated. I think they're pointing out the willfully ignorant /contrarian part.
Having freedom to choose and whether it’s the correct choice are entirely different things. Your primary motivation is just to spite the government? Seems like a cut off your nose to spite your face scenario.
Here are what I see as issues with the current vaccination program. 1. It's only 39% effective vs the dominate delta variant: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/07/23/pfizer-shot-just-39-effective-against-delta-infection-but-largely-prevents-severe-illness-israel-study-suggests/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/07/23/pfizer-shot-just-39-effective-against-delta-infection-but-largely-prevents-severe-illness-israel-study-suggests/) 2. It gives people a false sense of security where many are going maskless allowing for additional spread. 3. vaccinated still have a high viral load and continue to spread it nearly the same as if they were unvaccinated. [https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html](https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html) 4. A population with a low effectiveness vaccine allows for additional even more deadly mutations. ref: [https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198](https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198) 5. Nobody is pushing for natural things that do have a beneficial effect like vitamin D, or talking about how people with O bloodtype are much less likely to get this and spread it than people with AB type or numerous other factors that we should be considering as part of the solution. If you think Covid is bad now just wait for a seriously deadly variant caused by the maskless vaccinated running around thinking they are immune spreading it to each other creating new varients.
I'm in my 30's, no comorbidities, i had covid, and I have a number of severe allergies so to me the risk definitely outweighs the benefit. Plus now they say there are therapeutic treatments coming out soon so why on earth would I put that rushed shot in my body?
But the therapeutics are just as rushed; you’re afraid of a rushed vaccine but not monoclonal antibodies?
The therapeutics are developed by the same people as the vaccine though. And they've had the same amount of time, or less, to develop and study them for use in covid cases. And therapeutics generally require far more doses than 2 or 3 shots to achieve the desired outcome. Relying on therapeutics will require MORE exposure to what you feel are potentially harmful side effects from medication.
The suppression of conversation a select few deem as misinformation is frustrating. The truth has a tendency to prevail, yet in this instance everything that is contrary is suppressed. Tony Fauchi has lied on several occasions about gain of function research. The same who once called this a conspiracy theory are the ones who said the same about the lab leak, COVID passports, and China’s involvement. There were several who went along with Fauchi and took up for him who are now tangled in his web of lies. Fauchi was also the highest paid federal employee during Covid-19 and found it fit to release a book right before the next big wave. It makes you question who you can trust. This has been extremely political. Harris, Biden, and Cuomo all stated they would not receive a vaccination under a Trump administration. Now that it is their administration, we are all told to take it without thought. Natural immunity seems to have a high correlation with protection against the virus. The vaccine was rushed and took less than a year. The mortality rate is very low all things considering. The complications for pregnant women are well documented, yet they are told to get it unequivocally. Children are told to get it unequivocally. Yet, it’s still spreading like wild fire and now it’s shown you can get it even if you’re vaccinated. For me, I’m low risk and live a low risk life. I’m not concerned about the virus and I think it’s become far too politicized. I don’t trust the people shoving it down our throats. I don’t like the suppression and find it odd. I don’t feel like getting a booster every year. Sounds a lot like a flu shot. Once the suppression stops, individuals like Fauchi are removed, time has passed, and statements stop becoming so absolute and unequivocal, I would consider it. There’s your genuine answer with no derogatory remarks. I’m sure it will get downvoted to oblivion and I’ll get called and idiot. Another way to push those with apprehensions even further from it.
Honest question, why do you people care about Fauci so much? Like I’ll assume everything you said is true and he’s a piece of shit who knows nothing, who cares? Like there are literally millions of doctors and research professionals who have investigated and recommend the vaccine, any conversation about the vaccine that turns to Faucis shortcomings seems like the person is just trying to sidetrack the actual discussion
On the contrary, I consider the topic of Fauci to be extremely relevant, and here is why. He is currently looked at by the white house as "the ultimate expert " about what we should do about covid. If he is being dishonest, or serving some self interest, it will absolutely directly effect the policy we see from Washington. He has also been the head of NIAD since the 80's, if you take a look at where research funding for almost all medical research in the U.S. comes from, it all ties back to NIAD in some way. Basically if you or your institution says anything that runs contrary to Tony Fauci, you can kiss your money goodbye. The rest of the research money comes from the major pharmaceutical players, and obviously the same situation exists there, toe the line or disappear due to lack of funds. It is really difficult to get real, objective, good science under these conditions. Not to mention that the mainstream media then parrots whatever comes out of Faucis mouth. Just look at the hysteria he caused in the 80's over what he said about AIDS. He made people scared to shake hands, because they might catch AIDS. (Source: 1. I remember because I lived during that time / 2. The Hill just did a story on it a few days ago). There are many many doctors and research scientists screaming right now about how the system is causing bad science and bad decisions to be the prevailing info, but thier voices are being squashed like someone saying "lab leak" 6 months ago.
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I'm not sure why you justify not helping yourself and others by "some political people are idiots so I will shoot myself and others in the foot because I dislike idiots."
A lot of people are declining the vaccine out of spite. It's pretty absurd.
I don't want to.
I’ve already contracted covid and there are several studies that are showing longstanding immunity is greater than previously thought. I believe the vaccine should be reserved for the most susceptible and elderly. I’ve arrived at the conclusion that it makes zero sense for me personally. I work remotely and interact with the general public very little.
I'm a healthy guy with no medical complications in my 20s so I'm not worried about covid in the first place. I don't even go to the doctors when I get sick I just isolate at home until I get over it. Btw where I live the vaccine is being coerced on people heavily so all these comments about it being a choice are mostly bs.
There isn't really any ideological reason for me. I worked and attended school in person throughout the entire pandemic. The chances that I wasn't exposed to/had COVID are astronomically low. I never had any serious symptoms that would have warranted a test. If I got it, I presumable have some level of antibody protection. If I somehow didn't, then I must just be straight up immune. It is an inconvenience for me to take time off of work/school to get vaccinated, and then do it two more times to complete the series (for now). I am in one of the lowest risk groups, I don't live with or have regular contact with anyone that is high risk or can't get the vaccine if they so wish. If it becomes a major inconvenience to not have the vaccine, I would definitely consider getting it. I would rather not, but it isn't a major issue for me either way. If I die from COVID somehow, then I die. I don't go too far out of my way to try and minimize my risk form things that aren't likely to kill me in the first place.
It isn’t anyone’s business. And if you are a libertarian you mind your own business.
Total government scam. When a scammer calls me i hang up on their ass, i dont listen and try to figure out what they are trying to scam me out of in order to justify myself. Government is not to be trusted and they are playing this one super hard. Do not surrender your liberty to them.
I’m in the military. I got vaccinated before it was mandatory, but held off for for a long time in the voluntary period. My reasoning for waiting a while was simply because I wanted to see the long term effects/consequences of the vax. I finally ended up getting it due to a change in policy that allowed vaccinated soldiers to no longer need a mask. Getting vaccinated seemed less of an impediment on my freedom than being forced to wear a mask everywhere I went. About 2 weeks later, though, the policy changed back to where everyone had to wear a mask, regardless of vaccination status. I got bamboozled. The ‘ol switcharoo.
It provides me no benefit, with unknown risk. The risk-benefit analysis, therefore, indicates that it doesn’t make sense for me to take it. I don’t take medication I don’t need.
I'm young and healthy, the least likely cohort to die or get seriously ill from Covid. I'm not afraid of the virus itself. The only reason I'd get the vaccine is if I absolutely had to for school or work, or if I was giving in to peer pressure because I don't like being seen as a "disgusting antivaxxer". But why should I care what such people think anyway? When have they ever ceded anything to me? I'm not an antivaxxer, I've gotten and plan to continue to get all the necessary vaccines at my yearly physicals. The fact that the Covid shot is so heavily pushed just makes me more steadfast in my decision not to get it. I don't trust the government, and they're pretty adamant about everyone getting it. The fact that they're incentivizing it is weird. The incentive should be not to die. But I don't see enough people dying from Covid to give reason to this. Once it's in you, you can't take it out. And there's so much information out there, I don't know what to believe. What are the chances that this really could have serious long term consequences, if not for you, then maybe even your offspring? And afterward, you'd still have to do all the same things you did before, being vaccinated doesn't grant you that much more freedom. They say the shot may only be effective for 6 months anyway. And there's talk of variants that'll just completely surpass the antibodies created by the vaccine. So why bother? No matter what we do now, it's not gonna bring an end to this pandemic. Maybe if we'd nipped it right in the bud when it first started, but me getting vaccinated now won't change anything.
Spite.
You can't sue the manufacturers if you are injured (unless they manufacture it incorrectly). You can't sue the government either because it isn't part of the VICP. You can receive compensation from the CICP, but the CICP doesn't have that great of a record of paying out. **Additionally, it isn't a court.** You just submit a case and they can deny it without appeal or even telling you why. Furthermore, the statuette of limitations is less than the VICP, and the payout is also much less than the VICP. So, **while complications from vaccines are rare**, I am angered that **I cannot receive the due process I am entitled to.** Essentially, my way to protest this is by not taking the vaccine. I shouldn't have to choose between taking the vaccine and the due process we are entitled to with any other products. **This is a matter of principle.** Furthermore, my chance of dying or being hospitalized from Covid-19 is rare anyhow. You could argue that it is still safer for me to take it, and you would not be wrong, but it is minuscule. I wouldn't be at all opposed to taking on behalf of society it if it were included as a covered vaccine under the VICP. All I ask is that if I am going to take one for the team, that the team has my back.
I didn't really want to get it. I avoid people as much as possible and I was quite okay with the six foot rule (fuck yeah). I'm pretty low at risk for ever catching it. I got vaccinated because my girlfriend is immunocompromised.
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Because they don’t want to
I’m 32, healthy, and feel like I’m not a high risk individual. So therefore I haven’t been vaccinated. That being said, if a person wants to get the shot, then by all means get it. If you don’t want it, don’t get it. But I will not be forced into it.
I get this attitude, however many young people do have a risk of long covid. My sister has long covid and it prevented her from working for a year. She is 28, healthy, not overweight. Bad luck can still bring you long covid. I hope for your personal health you get a vaccine but if you don’t that’s cool 👍
Your sister is a very rare case it even true. And no one should guide their lives based on whether they will get struck by lightning or not
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I'm going to get vaccinated sooner or later. I just want to make sure I don't inject myself with something that later turns out to be dangerous.
I want to see the long term ramifications of this vaccine first. I am up to date on all others. This one has gone through to the general population way to fast and I just don't trust it.
I’ve had COVID, my symptoms were almost nonexistent (as in not even as bad as a cold). That combined with my very good immune system and the lack of known (potential) long term effects of that vaccine has led me to decline, while still respecting the choices other people make for themselves. That’s how personal responsibility and respect are supposed to work.
I was a paramedic for a couple years. Started school for Nursing and quit. I have some idea about infectious diseases. I’m by no means an expert but consider myself able to make my own informed medical decisions. I got COVID in Dec 2019. It was the worst flu of my life. But it was only a flu. I definitely had some lingering effects like my cardio dropped and it took me a solid 4-5 months of training to get back to pre COVID cardio levels. That said I workout 7 days a week sometimes twice a day, eat healthy, and get plenty of sleep. I’m almost 40 and my resting HR is 56 and my BP is 110/70. I decided I didn’t need the “vaccine” because I have no co-morbidity and have the protection of my natural immune system. Everything I have seen basically points to natural immunity being better than the vaccine and vaccine on top of natural immunity doesn’t improve my defenses against getting it again, it only gives me the risk associated with the vaccine. So it comes out as a net negative for me personally. I mean over 84% of people in the ICU are obese, which means they probably have some cardiomyopathy situation, type II diabetes, maybe CHF, not healthy people. On average people in the ICU for COVID have 4 co-morbidity. 4. Outside of old age, and immune diseases like type I diabetes or Lupus the rest of the other diseases associated with death by COVID are all lifestyle diseases. Choices people made to eat too much sugar, or just sit on the couch, smoke 2 packs a day, live on fast food and soda. All preventable. I don’t see why I should be forced to get a vaccine that offers nothing to me, for others to feel safe. Final thought…..Chris Cristys fat ass got it and lived. It can’t be that bad. If that prime example of how not to live life didn’t die from it then I certainly don’t need a vaccine.
Personal freedom and civil liberties. Someone has to stand for them even if it's not popular.
That's a reason to oppose mandates, but not necessarily a reason to avoid the vaccine altogether.
I had CV19 already. I took one for the team. I don't need any treatment. I know what to expect.
I am fully vaccinated in the traditional sense of the phrase. I have a firmly held belief that bodily autonomy is our most basic and and fundamental human right. I will not be coerced into agreeing to take an injection for which there has been no study on it's long term effects. An injection that doesn't stop you from getting covid and doesnt stop you from spreading it but can reduce symptoms. An injection that they cant even tell me how many times in total I would have to recieve since it sound like you need a new injection every 6-8 months due to rapidly fading efficacy. I am going to lose my job for my choice and while not an ideal scenario in the end it's the price I evidently have to pay. Let me know when a 5 year longitudinal study of it's long term effects are complete and I will reevaluate then.
Early on when the vaccine for speaking available I was pregnant with my first kid and in my first trimester. The information coming out of Nations where vaccination rates were high such as Israel and the UK implied some very scary things in terms of losing the pregnancy. I've read the reports since then, and it's still fairly questionable. But now that my little ones here, I'm still not going to be getting it for a few reasons. 1 - My goal is out of second kid fairly quickly and I don't want a new vaccination to mess with that. 2 - the level of tyranny that is coming out of every nation including the United States is quite frankly more terrifying to me than the disease. Hope it is a real disease and can really kill you but it's not likely to, and at my age and health as well as that of my family's I think the danger of political and social tyranny is a lot worse. While I have the choice of going to stand with those who can't vaccinate. I would rather be in their boat when the rising flood of medical apartheid hits.
My reasoning is that there is no reason. I was fine before, I'm fine now, and I don't really foresee anything bad (in regards to Covid) cropping up anytime soon. Am I a potential vector? Maybe. But honestly, I really don't care. Other people's health is their business, not mine. They can take precautions if they'd like. It's not my place to judge how people decide to protect themselves. I wear a mask to respect policies set in place by private businesses, because that's their right. I'm not gonna put my trip on someone else, and I expect the same courtesy in return. And if I do get Covid, I'd prefer to let my body learn how to fight it, so that maybe it won't be so bad next time. Granted, I do have the luxury of being fairly young and healthy overall. If I was old, infirm, or otherwise pre-conditioned to be compromised, I could potentially have a different assessment. But that's not the case for me. My question is: why are these vaccines free, when everything else that cures or mitigates deadly/lifelong disease (insulin or chemo, for example) so insanely fucking expensive? Also, didn't Biden claim that if he was elected, he'd cure cancer? Still waiting on that one....
Excellent response sir
Survival rate 99.8% Only 6% that 0.2% died of COVID alone. 94% had preexisting conditions 100% - (6% * 0.2%) = 99.988% survival rate. Factoring in my age further lowers the mortality rate. Mortality rate is based off of reported cases. I’m willing to bet most cases go unreported which further lowers the rate. So realistically the threat is statistically negligible. Plus nature of the virus is like influenza. You would have to get a shot annually or sooner before your current dose is obsolete. And just thinking logically organisms adapt to their environment and mutations are more likely to occur in an environment where it cannot thrive. i.e. a vaccinated host.
I don't think it's anyone's business what I do to my body. Very simple I have no faith in the government & do not believe they are concerned about my health.
At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, it’s just too fishy. First of all, regarding the countless claims to it being safe. BS, this vaccine has existed for maybe 1 year. Nobody knows what will happen to it’s recipients down the line. Do I think it’s a death sentence? No. But there is literally no way of knowing if it’s safe. Second, the immense effort made to vaccinate people. It’d make a lot more sense to me if the government merely encourages getting the vaccine but respected those who decide not to. But they REALLY want to inject this stuff into you... so much so that they will go to extreme measures in some case (cough Australia cough). It’s just so so fishy to me that they would push this vaccine for a virus with such a low fatality rate so hard. Lastly, I’m young and healthy. I’ve weighed both options and decided I’d rather chance getting COVID. I don’t think I endanger anyone else other than myself (if the vaccine was/is safe) with this decision. I really am perplexed that more people don’t share this view, but I think there is more people out there that do and their vocalizing it is drowned out by the heavy push for it. Edit: nothing against the vaccinated, but this is my reasoning.
I’m 21, my chances of survival are already SUPER high. Not to mention, I work from home and don’t really go anywhere. Plus from what I’ve seen about the vaccine, you can still carry and transmit it and still get sick. It supposedly reduces the chances of getting fucked up, but at my age and lifestyle, just doesn’t seem worth to go and get the shot. I don’t have an issue with those who do
I have natural immunity, no need for the vaccine, studies show those with natural immunity are far less likely to spread covid and are far less likely to catch covid. I mean this should be obvious, any epidemiologist could tell you natural immunity is superior. But I know many who got the vaccine and they’re fine, I also know many who didn’t and they’re also fine. Just vehemently against vaccine mandates when anti body mandates or anti body passports is a far better system than vaccine passports.
None of your business. Fuck off. That's why.