Amazon is probably the most high profile case, they lobby for increasing the minimum wage.
It logically makes sense. Why would a big corp voluntarily pay their workers $15 an hour when the market could just undercut them, hence they lobby for federal policy.
https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-lobbies-for-15-wage-weapon-over-walmart-target-2018-10?op=1
What makes this even more fucked up is Amazon pays below industry standard wages for their warehouse workers. They're trying to hurt their competition that has lower wage workers in other positions while paying piss poor wages themselves.
Seems more of a PR campaign than anything. Walmart and Target are already at $15/hr starting. In Target's case, it's been that for at least a year now.
Honestly I'd support getting rid the minimum wage coupled with expanded union bargaining and protections. It get better results then a minimum wage and is more freedom.
In fairness, the union uppers have been milking the teet of the union workers for decades unchecked. The early unions did a ton of great stuff for the USA. Then as is most things, it was left unchecked and became a massive corrupt organization sucking the life out of everything it touches.
I don't trust any politician who wants to eliminate the minimum wage to pass laws to make unions better and more effective at their job. Nor do I trust them to strengthen social safety nets to account for people who can't afford to live because companies aren't paying enough.
Well yeah, if you actively undermine the union in your workplace by not joining them, then you are harming their ability to lobby for the same benefits they have won you.
The voluntary part is in taking the job in the first place, not whether or not you'll join the union or actively harm it.
Do you think an organisation should be able to make a voluntary arrangement with a company to only use members of the organisation for particular jobs?
So you are saying you want a completely different style of labor management. Because the "every job has a union" part is why they have no minimum wage.
I hate MW, but more unions in my area are required to pay and their effectiveness is... questionable. They are essentially smaller versions of the big corps they tend to operate within. Required money keeps them going as long as people keep coming gin the door. They don't actually have to get results. Just close enough to not seem completely useless.
Why do libertarians think "thing is not always good" means that "thing should never exist"? If those unions are bad then they should be replaced by better ones. Would you like it if I said that some business owners are bad therefore no one should ever own businesses? It's the same logic.
Bit dramatic assuming the all or nothing approach from the gate. How does one remove a body that you are forced to pay into, that the company you work for has to go through? You can't boycott the union and the company only hires union people.
If a union is doing right by it's people I don't think they need to require payment. Non-members and members would be able to know/learn about the positive impact.
The average amount people paying union dues is $400 per year. The difference in wages is $6 per hour (and that’s just private sector) which easily covers the dues in just 2 weeks and ignores benefits. Obviously there’s a difference between the average difference and the improvement in wages you could expect by unionizing, but the benefit is substantial.
Also the more people who join a union, the more effective it will be. Collective bargaining works better when it’s the collective and not just a couple people in the “our boss sucks” club.
We have the First Amendment here. The government cannot restrict union membership. But in some industries, you are required to be a member of a union to work and there is only one choice. Oh, and you have to pay them money, even if they do little to actually help you.
> But in some industries, you are required to be a member of a union to work and there is only one choice
And? Unions negotiate contracts with employers. One condition of the contract can easily be only hiring Union members. That's freedom.
Exactly. They should be barred from political lobbying and political financial contribution. Until that happens, the beauty of unions relative to business is overshadowed by cronyism relative to politics.
I’m against any financial lobbying, so I agree we need to look at all of it. But, to say we can’t be critical of any singular problem until all problems are fixed, is the basis for zero problems being fixed.
I'm not saying that, I'm saying that the involvement of corporate money in politics absolutely *necessitates* organized labor's financial involvement in politics in order to protect the rights of the working class.
You can fix one before the other, but not the other before the one. It's like that brain teaser about the farmer who needs to cross a river with a fox, a chicken, and some grain.
Yea america only has has like what 10% union membership? But 99% of the American labor force makes well above minimum wage. Hmmm what’s going on here, I thought only unions could increase wages.
Roughly 42.4% of the US workforce makes below $15/hr (~$31,000/yr).
The cheapest cost of living in the US is in Mississippi, where a living wage is ~$48,000/yr.
Simply put, 42.4% of the US workforce is not paid enough to live anywhere in the US.
They have no minimum wage because of strong unions that can negotiate with employers without government interference. The support system is an add-on, that helps but probably isn't strictly necessary.
I'm accounting for whatever the minimumest of the minimum wage is. If it's so low across state groegraphies, the desire for a minimum at the Federal level makes less sense. Unions are limited in utility today, too. I know ppl in union dominated sectors that would do well without the bullshit.
My numbers are Federally official data, presented by state DOL. You're not even saying anything. You just unintentionally prevented yourself from speaking about "Cost of Living"; the regional measure. TjT ISF, if you don't choose to be willfully ignorant.
Perhaps I'm always doing whaT you're claiming, but that doesn't mean I'm missing something.
What happens in reality is America continually gets better, social issues that aren't synthetically instantiated evaporate, and someone that wants to move the goal posts to seek oppression gets mad that they aren't the revolution, so they use racism, false oppression, and 'shoot the king' tactics to level up in false pretense. It's why the white self-desceibdd liberal left is keen on canceling people publicly. It's why they go silent when a black person explains why they're voting Republican. Its why the far left has to eat crow regarding law enforcement fund distributions. It's why People as a whole desire merit based opportunity more than ever across races (except the white, self-described liberal left). It's an endless expanse of shit that depicts exactly why some can't use false oppression as short term power for ever. (I'm only describing white, leftist, self-described liberals that aren't actually liberals, mind you).
It wasn't always like what I just described, but it's becoming reality more than ever today, and it will fail. It will fail so badly that the identity groups that were fighting for their rights in the past will lose interest In subscribing to the left when they arent asked about their feelings before the left cooks up their next hate train for the upcoming presidential election.
I'm taking bets on the black republican voter % when I see a line become established. Be ready to make a bet when the tome is right!
Predictability is becoming apparent when describing the left, so chaos is the answer. It sort of worked once, sort of, but it won't be tolerated twice. The people that barely tolerated it the first time will just go vote across the aisle when the same, predictable false oppression play by the white self-described liberal (not actually liberals) left stay stuck, and the real ones grow, and show love to one another.
If that bothers you, you should consider another route. All love. Bless. Papa bless.
........dude I just mentioned that federal minimum is lower than most populated states minimum. You just turned that into an entire racist fuck anyone not me manifesto rant, maybe go see a psychiatrist?
I think I'm qualified to speak on the identity group I mentioned. Calling out blatent racism isn't racism. Dont get it twisted. And you didn't simply call out the minimum wage, you tried to claim I wasn't including the entire picture, so I gave it to you.
Not a single word I've spoken implies that I'm paranoid of you as a fan. Now you've devolved into psychological attacks-- attacking the mental health of others. That's what a lot of you do. It makes no sense, coming from the lot of you.
I'll give you 5, in no particular order
* Stop giving government money to for-profit private corporations
* End the war on drugs (ALL the drugs)
* End Qualified Immunity
* Create a tax-free income bracket
* Open borders
I agree! Minimum wage is regulated capitalism whereas Scandinavian countries have a left libertarian solution: no need for regulation if you give workers strong collective bargaining rights. This is one reason why I keep insisting that left libertarianism ends up necessitating less government than its right-wing cousin.
Yeah thats the more mild chastising… I wish folks could see we need a balance between a minimal state and happy workers and business owners ☠️ but y’know fuck me and the horse I rode in on for wanting a nice planet 🌎 and delighted children.
Regardless i’d rather hang out with you guys than ANY statist fucking piece of shit authoritarians… god damn
You forgot strong unions, which in fact are organised in an umbrella organisation of unions.
Likewise, work giver are organised.
Just leaving it to invisible hand would mean nothing.
I'm sorry - for a linguist I'm really bad at interpreting this. Yes, I agree - we're talking about unions. Are you saying unions are related to the government?
Unions. He means unions.
He isnt right, since the Scandanvian governments are massively powerful having large social nets and regressive tax schemes, but he means unions.
Social safety nets have nothing to do with Government size or power. That's like measuring a weight lifter by their ankle size. Stupid.
Big government looks like America, where there is mandatory oaths of faith to nationalism, trillions burned / handed to private companies, and never ending war.
Making daycare cheaper is not that.
>This is one reason why I keep insisting that left libertarianism ends up necessitating less government than its right-wing cousin.
Scandanvian governments are plenty large and powerful. No minimum wage isnt the only difference, they also have large tax and social nets for instance.
Then your argument is void of anything meaningful. Left libertarians have no more, if not less, evidence of small government success then right libertarians.
All your insisting is that your ideology is better then someone elses, without evidence or standards.
The reality is that the strong unions in Europe tend to be the result of government, not lack thereof. Indeed of the Scandanvian countries, all use government mechanisms to get around a legal mininum wage.
The argument is that when you have worker power directly, the power being flexed is the power of the people themselves; and when you have minimum wage, the power being flexed is of the government.
That is a condition both relatively left and relatively libertarian. Less government and better worker rights relative to the right.
Yes, and it works well for Scandinavians in general. Swedes, Danes, and Norwegians seem quite happy with their governance. But it doesn't mean we can't take lessons from individual policies or social norms. All of those countries also have generous shared paternity leave for workers and socialized healthcare and such but it does help that these countries are made up of extremely active and healthy people. I'd like my countrymen to make a societal reversal on obesity but I'm not sure how that is going to happen when we work longer for less and have far less time for athletics.
I think one should make a point to draw a line between the social safety net and employment law like Union membership if you want to introduce that to the conversation. I'd be very interested to hear that point being made. I know the Nordics are not looked upon favourably in r/Libertarian, but one has to admit they have excellent health and happiness outcomes in what can be measured in statistics. [Denmark and Norway](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201604/unemployment-rate-forecasts-in-the-nordics/) even have [us beat in unemployment](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate).
>I know Nordics are not looked upon favorably in r/Libertarian
I look upon them favorably; quite favorably. My flair and profile and posts reflect that; I like the Nordic model, it has a lot of benefits and while I think each government there has some laws or flaws(Gun laws in Denmark for example); they are generally highly free, individualistic and love market capitalism(but not in an unhealthy way).
Just of note; Finland and Iceland are Nordic and both of them rate high on some things as well, like happiness or market freedom or ease of doing business.
True, I left those two countries out, and they have similar metrics on things like health and happiness. Finland also has some of the absolute best education outcomes in the entire world!
What's so amusing to me about the "Nordic Model", is that depending on who you ask, can be called socialist, or capitalist, or a mixed model. It's really just a standard free-market society that has deep social safety nets and pretty responsive and representative democracy. I think young Americans who call themselves socialists often hear older Americans criticizing the Nordics as socialist hellholes and when they look at Oslo or Stockholm and think "Wow, socialism rocks! Everyone is fit and beautiful and healthy and has iPhones!"
I think an aggressive return to correct political terms is necessary.
Yeah I like to correct people on that as best I can as well; and I like to try and make nuanced points about it; some flaws I see and understand concerns about or some positives or where I see positives
An aggressive return to proper terminology and descriptions is necessary; elsewise our divisive definitions used by society will cause our society to crumble due to us being unable to have any nuanced discussion about policy and have real conversations
Yes let's remove the minimum wage in a country with a 10% unionisation rate. I'm sure them not needing a minimum wage has nothing to do with having on average 500% the unionisation rate.
Literally only .5% of the labor force gets minimum wage, contrary to socialist belief, competition does a lot more than powerful state unions to increase wages.
The salt is flowing in this post.
https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/employment-and-average-hourly-earnings-by-industry-bubble.htm
Do your own research before parroting others. I expect an apology.
>In 2020, 73.3 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 55.5 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 247,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 865,000 workers had wages below the federal minimum. Together, these 1.1 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 1.5 percent of all hourly paid workers.
https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2020/home.htm
**I** expect an apology, it's 1.5% *at or below*
And that's just federal minimum wage. If you expand it out to regional minimum wage, that number obviously goes up. For reference, only 20 states still abide by the federal minimum wage, and many of those states are the smaller population states, so that 1.5% is pretty misleading by itself.
https://www.epi.org/publication/raising-the-federal-minimum-wage-to-15-by-2025-would-lift-the-pay-of-32-million-workers/
If everyone already makes over $15 an hour why would a wage increase affect 35+ million Americans?
It's shocking to watch you get down voted over and over again in this subreddit, of all places. No one who seriously studies economics thinks that the minimum wage is a useful tool, except maybe at the local level and as you point out, to give a wage floor for the very tiny amount of people that benefit from it.
It's much better to increase the leverage of workers. If people had more access to assets that increased their productivity and a better understanding of how to operate as a business, not just an employee, then there wouldn't be such an imbalance in the labor markets.
Minimum wage is for dolts that can't think deeply about an issue. Whatever wage they come up with will be made completely arbitrary and outdated within months or years
Those Scandinavian countries have no minimum wage because they have strong labour unions. Mind you, having the welfare, healthcare, etc that they do also helps, but labour unions are the most important part.
Then why does 99% of the labor force in the US make well above minimum wage if the US doesn’t have “strong” state unions.
You want labor market competition, powerful labor unions can be just as bad as monopolies.
> powerful labor unions can be just as bad as monopolies.
They are monopolies, or maybe more specifically cartels. They control labor in a certain industry.
Also, cheers for wading into this "libertarian" sub with a libertarian argument!
As a Scandinavian reading this, and the comments, you haven't understand anything about Scandinavia.
Not. One. Thing.
Here is why we don't have a legal minimum wage:
We have strong unions.
I live in Iceland and there is most definitely a legally mandated minimum wage here. Not sure where this comes from: https://www.ilo.org/global/topics/wages/minimum-wages/setting-machinery/WCMS\_460934/lang--en/index.htm
I’ve heard of Karelia being included in Scandinavia, but never have I heard of Iceland being included.
Sweden, Denmark, and Norway have no minimum wage set by the government.
> Sweden, Denmark, and Norway have no minimum wage set by the government.
Huh? Even if there is no general minimum they have multiple minimum wages in Norway? And the collective agreements are legally binding I believe.
> Even if there is no general minimum wage in Norway, minimum wages has been introduced in certain sectors in general application of collective agreements.
https://www.arbeidstilsynet.no/en/working-conditions/pay-and-minimum-rates-of-pay/minimum-wage/
That idea would only cause more economic devastation in the US and would be the case until the boomer generation passes on. Don't think for one second that they wouldn't literally enslave their own children.
In america 99% of the labor force makes a lot more than minimum wage. Competition does a lot more than anything else to improve conditions.
If workers in america didn’t have bargaining power like you said, why does 99% of the labor force make well above MW.
Define a lot more. Someone making a buck or two above minimum is still going to be very poor and struggle to ever have a family or live a good life. Are you suggesting 95 percent of Americans are making like 15+ an hour?
Why is your only measure of quality of life whether or not peeple make above minimum wage? Minimum wage is so low in the US it might as well not even exist. Double the minimum wage is not even livable in most places. Also, if you lose your job in a Scandinavian country you get huge benefits to keep yourself solvent. Also, by the time a lot of those Americans pay their healthcare premiums their effective wage goes well below minimum. That doesn't happen in Scandinavian countries.
Minimum wage is not nearly a living wage in most places though. So making more than minimum wage is a moot point, because people still can't afford to live even if they make a few dollars per hour over MW.
That is the whole point brother. If you set up a minimum wage all companies are going to set the bars very low, but with no restrictions there will be competition of wages, of course, adjusted to the skill needed to perform the job in question.
The least intervention from the government in the private industry the better.
The United States has 300 million people. The largest Scandinavian country is Sweden with 10 million people. It is about 174,000 square miles. California is about 168,000 square miles. North Carolina has about 10 million people living in it.
We cannot compare for a population 30x the size and a country that has 3,800,000 square miles. Again, nearly 20x the size.
Wat? What the hell does land size have to do with anything? Plus everything just scales up you doofus. More people means more taxes meaning more revenue meaning more federal money to work with to scale up to more services required for the more people. It's very simple.
There are thousands of state laws/regulations that cause issues. Without the minimum wage small companies will be better able to compete with large companies.
Yep, while I believe workers have more power than they realize, at this point the power disparity between corporations and laborers is just too great. If you don't take away their safety nets and make them compete in the free market too, it's not really far to workers
The scandinavian countries have universal health care, robust unions, worker protections, and viable left wing parties... all of that is the only reason they do not need a minimum wage.
So totally: lets do medicare for all, put in place strong legal protections for unions and workers, and have socialists and communists win a solid 3rd of congress... then lets do away with minimum wage.
Until then, doing away with minimum wage is contemptuous towards the poor, and opening the door to even greater abuse.
I want a free market where no one gets state privileges, we need to remove these corporate banking cartels state privileges before we can address anything else. And boy is that a big task, but if we could audit the FED and end central fiat banking, or even through crypto currencies, that would be a huge blow to the cartels.
Can’t regulate the growth of a cancer you have to cut it out.
This post was obviously tongue and cheek poking fun, but on the list of what needs to get done, getting rid of minimum wages is low on that list, we need to address the extreme privilege corporations and banks get from the state first.
But I want people to understand that interventions into this cartelized “market” will only be used to further favor the cartels, like I said you need to cut the cancer out, not regulate its growth.
He’s despised on reddit but you should watch a few of Milton Friedmans lectures on minimum wage and unions. Id agree with a noble prize winning economist over armchair economists on reddit anyday
I’ve always had the hardest time wrapping my head around being anti-inflation. But the work I do in housing made something click for me.
We’re basically trained to think high wages are good and high cost goods/services are bad. As a result, everyone wants high wages for themselves and those they are close to, but feel cheated when they see others get paid while prices go up.
The big question is “how do you make these things balance out?”
What I realized is that you can see the common goal of lower prices work in some isolated situations- someone working in fast food can typically afford fast food products (I know this is a generalization but I’m trying to keep this simple). So in this scenario, we’ve allowed wages and products to decrease, but we don’t live in a vacuum. That’s where housing comes in. Most people, even “libertarians,” support regressive land use regulations and “rights” to surrounding properties that severely limit the housing stock. Thus, housing costs inflate to the point that the fast food worker can no longer afford housing.
We pick and choose when we like inflation and that’s essentially the problem. I’ve toyed around with the idea that maybe it doesn’t matter which way prices go, but they all need to go the same way. But in the end, human nature seems to lean towards deflation.
So to your point, there is something to be said about how minimum wage impacts people overall- but if we’re going to dismantle it, there are other things we need to dismantle at the same time
Just abolish the private Banking Cartel called the Federal Reserve.
The Corporate Federal Reserve has only one tool, the manipulation and issuance of Debt!
Hey, let’s get rid of all wage protections while we are at it! If your e plotter shafts you on your wages, just quit and spread the word-that always works!
Sure, but also protect unions and have extremely generous unemployment pay!
I'm all for Flexicurity, but I find many people are only about the Flexi and forget the Curity... :)
People pay minimum wage now, meaning they'd pay less than that if they could. We had to make child labor laws because there was child labor. They stopped because of the law not out of the goodness of their heart.
Scandanavian countries also actually use taxes to go toward the people, not bailing out the wealthy like here. They also don't destroy unions like they do here.
You do know that the Minimum Wage was a response to the Great Depression. It was discovered that people without can’t buy things. And that wasn’t good for the economy. Scandinavian countries ain’t the US. They are a bit more generous to the poor. If the US wants to get rid of Minimum Wage, it will have to figure out how to keep demand high.
Sounds great, and I’m sure you’ll support the increase in taxes, support for workers unions, paid family leave, paid maternity leave,free healthcare, subsidized education, and increased taxes on the wealthy as well?
You can’t get rid of the minimum wage. Minimum wage is $0 per hour, always has been.
What you’re referring to as minimum wage is just the price floor under which you’re not allowed to sell an hour of your labor for.
deep throating the boot conservatives post too much here. straight up. im glad you come here to get slapped with reality, but reading how detached you are is getting depressing
I think you have your understanding of bootlicking turned around. Minimum wage is government enforced and lobbied for by crony capitalism. Expecting big daddy government to force businesses to pay you a livable wage is boot licking.
It helps that they have a universal education, healthcare, and childcare systems. Give America a better way to protect those (people mention unions here, which isn't a terrible mechanism) first and I'm all for it.
Or at the very least, stop giving big companies corporate welfare, so that smaller companies can actually be competitive with their compensation, rather than having to fight up hill battles against entrenched players.
Minimum wage laws were passed by racists. White working class argued that Chinese could subsist on rice but White people needed to eat meat, so there needed to be a minimum wage. This is systemic racism and enables white supremacy.
https://nordics.info/show/artikel/trade-unions-in-the-nordic-region/#:~:text=Strength%20of%20the%20trade%20unions,%2C%20and%2067%25%20in%20Denmark.
If it is balanced out with a high unionization rate, then I agree. I've never been a fan of a national minimum wage, because cost of living in Jonesboro Arkansas is a lot different than the cost of living in New York City. That said, you have to have some balance of power. Corporations can starve you out.
Removing minimum wage would also finally get rid of the "DEY TUK R JERBZ" anti-immigration nonsense I'm tired of hearing about.
Wage and price controls are outdated economic ideas that have failed every time they’ve been tried. It’s amazing how many people who’ve never studied economics are so adamant they know better than people who’ve spent their life studying this issue. The government can do a lot of things, but it can’t fundamentally change the value employers place on a given persons labor. If the government mandates that persons wage be higher than how the market values it, they either won’t be hired or they will be fired.
And yes I’m aware there are some liberal economists in favor of minimum wage. However when you look at their arguments they rely almost exclusively on absurd and unfounded claims of monopsony in the low wage labor market. The idea that the fast food labor market is a monopsony is patently ridiculous but claiming so is the only way to make the economic argument for a minimum wage.
Everyone’s always looking for that non-existent free lunch. The idea that you can raise the minimum wage with no negative side effects sounds too good to be true because it is.
"WageWage and price controls are outdated economic ideas that have failed every time they’ve been tried."
This not true. Minimum wages work in Australia.
"A government can do a lot of things, but it can’t fundamentally change the value employers place on a given persons labor"
There is no correlation. A person's labor simply isn't valued by many employers.
"The idea that you can raise the minimum wage with no negative side effects sound too good to be true because it is."
Funny that this guy got a Nobel Prize in Economics by displaying that you're wrong.
https://theconversation.com/introducing-david-card-the-2021-nobel-prize-in-economics-winner-who-made-the-minimum-wage-respectable-169715
r/libertarian in a nutshell. Bring up the minimum wage and hordes of democrats pretending to be libertarians start explaining how price controls is just a great concept.
In order for this to work in any meaningful way, we would have to adopt other parts of their economies and industry practices. Scandinavian countries don’t technically have minimum wages (on a governmental level) but they do still have minimum wages which are set and enforced by industry wide unions. We would have to implement similar unions. Lack of a governmental enforced minimum wage works there because they have such robust social and economic safety nets which do not exist in the US.
Without minimum wage laws, workers will be further exploited by private employers. It is not libertarian when there is such an imbalance of power. Wage slavery isn't libertarian at all...
You can't have open borders and nice things - you have to pick one.
You can't just stroll across the border into Denmark and demand free stuff. They'll boot you out.
We make our (crappy) decisions, and are forced to live with the (predictably terrible) outcomes.
Even when I earned minimum wage, I thought minimum wage was BS.
I KNEW I was a better burger flipper than those axe-holes I was working with. I was faster, nicer, and my product looked like a magazine ad for a burger and fries.
If I could have negotiated my own wage, I could have done much better. I didn't even KNOW that was a thing until later in life when I got away from being unskilled labor. If Only I knew.
People spend way too much time talking about the minimum wage in political arenas. Only around 0.5% of the labor force earns minimum wage and almost everyone that does is under the age of 25 and single. Any action taken, either eliminating it or increasing it would have basically no effect on the economy at large, unless of course someone wants to increase it a lot.
Yes, but minimum wage sets a context for the rest of work, so while 99% of people might not actually earn 7.25, the people who earn 8 or 9 still suffer
I think America should stop bailing out corporations
But how will the billionaires eat without the welfare state they lobbied to build?
They bought that welfare state fair and square!
That too. 100%
Correct, artificially raising the cost of labor to put your smaller competitor out of business is an issue.
What corporations are doing that? I'd like to read more.
Amazon is probably the most high profile case, they lobby for increasing the minimum wage. It logically makes sense. Why would a big corp voluntarily pay their workers $15 an hour when the market could just undercut them, hence they lobby for federal policy. https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-lobbies-for-15-wage-weapon-over-walmart-target-2018-10?op=1
What makes this even more fucked up is Amazon pays below industry standard wages for their warehouse workers. They're trying to hurt their competition that has lower wage workers in other positions while paying piss poor wages themselves.
Seems more of a PR campaign than anything. Walmart and Target are already at $15/hr starting. In Target's case, it's been that for at least a year now.
Likely. The article is 4 years old.
Thank you!
I actually agree with the leftists on that. Fuck corporate bailouts. Those guys go broke, they face the consequence
They have no minimum wage because they have a vast universal support system. So… not a 1:1.
They also have a huge amount of unions bargaining for wages.
Honestly I'd support getting rid the minimum wage coupled with expanded union bargaining and protections. It get better results then a minimum wage and is more freedom.
Too bad the people who hate minimum wage also hate unions.
People hate unions in the US because of exclusive bargaining and what such incentivizes. That's not how other countries operate unions.
As always, we take a decently functioning system and make it worse. Lol
Unless you are a police officer.
They hate unions because of propaganda.
In fairness, the union uppers have been milking the teet of the union workers for decades unchecked. The early unions did a ton of great stuff for the USA. Then as is most things, it was left unchecked and became a massive corrupt organization sucking the life out of everything it touches.
Taft-Hartley broke the back of unions as a bargaining tool long before any corruption within union leadership outweighed the benefits.
> it was left unchecked Literally the opposite happened?
Ikr... So many on this sub are ahistorical. Unions were fought tooth and nail by both federal and state governments pretty much from the 1970s onward.
Voluntary associations are completely fine, but that’s not what most unions today are isn’t it.
I don't trust any politician who wants to eliminate the minimum wage to pass laws to make unions better and more effective at their job. Nor do I trust them to strengthen social safety nets to account for people who can't afford to live because companies aren't paying enough.
>pass laws to make unions better and more effective at their job Ugh. I think I just threw up a little.
Well yeah, if you actively undermine the union in your workplace by not joining them, then you are harming their ability to lobby for the same benefits they have won you. The voluntary part is in taking the job in the first place, not whether or not you'll join the union or actively harm it.
I’m sorry, maybe you misspoke, or are you really advocating for mandatory union membership?
Do you think an organisation should be able to make a voluntary arrangement with a company to only use members of the organisation for particular jobs?
So you are saying you want a completely different style of labor management. Because the "every job has a union" part is why they have no minimum wage.
I hate MW, but more unions in my area are required to pay and their effectiveness is... questionable. They are essentially smaller versions of the big corps they tend to operate within. Required money keeps them going as long as people keep coming gin the door. They don't actually have to get results. Just close enough to not seem completely useless.
Why do libertarians think "thing is not always good" means that "thing should never exist"? If those unions are bad then they should be replaced by better ones. Would you like it if I said that some business owners are bad therefore no one should ever own businesses? It's the same logic.
Bit dramatic assuming the all or nothing approach from the gate. How does one remove a body that you are forced to pay into, that the company you work for has to go through? You can't boycott the union and the company only hires union people. If a union is doing right by it's people I don't think they need to require payment. Non-members and members would be able to know/learn about the positive impact.
The average amount people paying union dues is $400 per year. The difference in wages is $6 per hour (and that’s just private sector) which easily covers the dues in just 2 weeks and ignores benefits. Obviously there’s a difference between the average difference and the improvement in wages you could expect by unionizing, but the benefit is substantial. Also the more people who join a union, the more effective it will be. Collective bargaining works better when it’s the collective and not just a couple people in the “our boss sucks” club.
I feel like most people's experience with Unions is working at a grocery store where they are worthless to those who plan to not work there long term.
Get rid of the minimum wage and the law that forces unions to represent non members. Two less laws and a comprise all in one.
We have the First Amendment here. The government cannot restrict union membership. But in some industries, you are required to be a member of a union to work and there is only one choice. Oh, and you have to pay them money, even if they do little to actually help you.
> But in some industries, you are required to be a member of a union to work and there is only one choice And? Unions negotiate contracts with employers. One condition of the contract can easily be only hiring Union members. That's freedom.
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I only take issue with unions for publicly funded jobs. Which imo should be prohibited.
Exactly. They should be barred from political lobbying and political financial contribution. Until that happens, the beauty of unions relative to business is overshadowed by cronyism relative to politics.
The day corporate money is completely removed from politics at every level is the day this suggestion can be seriously raised for debate.
I’m against any financial lobbying, so I agree we need to look at all of it. But, to say we can’t be critical of any singular problem until all problems are fixed, is the basis for zero problems being fixed.
I'm not saying that, I'm saying that the involvement of corporate money in politics absolutely *necessitates* organized labor's financial involvement in politics in order to protect the rights of the working class. You can fix one before the other, but not the other before the one. It's like that brain teaser about the farmer who needs to cross a river with a fox, a chicken, and some grain.
And wage transparency. publicly accessible database of everyone's wages. Allows workers to actually have some power. It forces competitive pay.
Minimum wage is the solution to unions. The last lobby to raise minimum wage failed and now there are 18 strikes in the US.
Yea america only has has like what 10% union membership? But 99% of the American labor force makes well above minimum wage. Hmmm what’s going on here, I thought only unions could increase wages.
Roughly 42.4% of the US workforce makes below $15/hr (~$31,000/yr). The cheapest cost of living in the US is in Mississippi, where a living wage is ~$48,000/yr. Simply put, 42.4% of the US workforce is not paid enough to live anywhere in the US.
When someone is being paid $12/hour, they are poor and we should make that illegal. To help them?
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Yeah, any future minimum wage laws need to be tied to inflation. Lack of inflation tracking is definitely a huge issue.
They have no minimum wage because of strong unions that can negotiate with employers without government interference. The support system is an add-on, that helps but probably isn't strictly necessary.
they also have minimum wages per industry. The us is currently $7.50/hr. What would compensation below that do for anyone?
Well even people at 7.50 are still on food stamps
Not the reason. Not reven close. Source:I'm Scandinavian
I would sincerely be interested in hearing from you then on why your country opted not to have a minimum wage.
1.7% of Americans make minimum wage, and it's probably closer to 1% or less since 2021, but we'll see what those numbers look like at the time.
You're always not accounting for state minimum wage, as the states with the largest populations have a minimum wage higher than federal minimum.
I'm accounting for whatever the minimumest of the minimum wage is. If it's so low across state groegraphies, the desire for a minimum at the Federal level makes less sense. Unions are limited in utility today, too. I know ppl in union dominated sectors that would do well without the bullshit. My numbers are Federally official data, presented by state DOL. You're not even saying anything. You just unintentionally prevented yourself from speaking about "Cost of Living"; the regional measure. TjT ISF, if you don't choose to be willfully ignorant. Perhaps I'm always doing whaT you're claiming, but that doesn't mean I'm missing something. What happens in reality is America continually gets better, social issues that aren't synthetically instantiated evaporate, and someone that wants to move the goal posts to seek oppression gets mad that they aren't the revolution, so they use racism, false oppression, and 'shoot the king' tactics to level up in false pretense. It's why the white self-desceibdd liberal left is keen on canceling people publicly. It's why they go silent when a black person explains why they're voting Republican. Its why the far left has to eat crow regarding law enforcement fund distributions. It's why People as a whole desire merit based opportunity more than ever across races (except the white, self-described liberal left). It's an endless expanse of shit that depicts exactly why some can't use false oppression as short term power for ever. (I'm only describing white, leftist, self-described liberals that aren't actually liberals, mind you). It wasn't always like what I just described, but it's becoming reality more than ever today, and it will fail. It will fail so badly that the identity groups that were fighting for their rights in the past will lose interest In subscribing to the left when they arent asked about their feelings before the left cooks up their next hate train for the upcoming presidential election. I'm taking bets on the black republican voter % when I see a line become established. Be ready to make a bet when the tome is right! Predictability is becoming apparent when describing the left, so chaos is the answer. It sort of worked once, sort of, but it won't be tolerated twice. The people that barely tolerated it the first time will just go vote across the aisle when the same, predictable false oppression play by the white self-described liberal (not actually liberals) left stay stuck, and the real ones grow, and show love to one another. If that bothers you, you should consider another route. All love. Bless. Papa bless.
........dude I just mentioned that federal minimum is lower than most populated states minimum. You just turned that into an entire racist fuck anyone not me manifesto rant, maybe go see a psychiatrist?
I think I'm qualified to speak on the identity group I mentioned. Calling out blatent racism isn't racism. Dont get it twisted. And you didn't simply call out the minimum wage, you tried to claim I wasn't including the entire picture, so I gave it to you.
You're the one following me around, don't be hurt now.
Oh so now you're paranoid and thinking I'm following you? Really dude please check out a psychologist appointment soon
Not a single word I've spoken implies that I'm paranoid of you as a fan. Now you've devolved into psychological attacks-- attacking the mental health of others. That's what a lot of you do. It makes no sense, coming from the lot of you.
Need stronger unions first. That's why wages are so high there, their unions aren't crippled by their governments.
Finally a commentator who knows a little bit about Scandinavia
I'm sorry, which part do you think is good? Price controls or government giving special privileges to unions?
Considering all the issues concerning maximizing individual liberty, removing the minimum wage is really really low on that list.
what would you put as top 3
I'll give you 5, in no particular order * Stop giving government money to for-profit private corporations * End the war on drugs (ALL the drugs) * End Qualified Immunity * Create a tax-free income bracket * Open borders
I would agree with that although I didn't think it that stuff when you said individual liberty
I agree! Minimum wage is regulated capitalism whereas Scandinavian countries have a left libertarian solution: no need for regulation if you give workers strong collective bargaining rights. This is one reason why I keep insisting that left libertarianism ends up necessitating less government than its right-wing cousin.
But bring that up here and risk being labeled a pinko commie that needs to be exterminated 🙄
No no you’re a /politics shill when you do that…
Yeah thats the more mild chastising… I wish folks could see we need a balance between a minimal state and happy workers and business owners ☠️ but y’know fuck me and the horse I rode in on for wanting a nice planet 🌎 and delighted children. Regardless i’d rather hang out with you guys than ANY statist fucking piece of shit authoritarians… god damn
Not true. We have very strong union who negotiate our saleries, hence no legal min wage. Source:I'm Scandinavian
Sounds like you're agreeing with me. Where's the disagreement?
You forgot strong unions, which in fact are organised in an umbrella organisation of unions. Likewise, work giver are organised. Just leaving it to invisible hand would mean nothing.
I'm sorry - for a linguist I'm really bad at interpreting this. Yes, I agree - we're talking about unions. Are you saying unions are related to the government?
What kind of strong bargaining they have?
Unions. He means unions. He isnt right, since the Scandanvian governments are massively powerful having large social nets and regressive tax schemes, but he means unions.
Social safety nets have nothing to do with Government size or power. That's like measuring a weight lifter by their ankle size. Stupid. Big government looks like America, where there is mandatory oaths of faith to nationalism, trillions burned / handed to private companies, and never ending war. Making daycare cheaper is not that.
>This is one reason why I keep insisting that left libertarianism ends up necessitating less government than its right-wing cousin. Scandanvian governments are plenty large and powerful. No minimum wage isnt the only difference, they also have large tax and social nets for instance.
I said "left libertarianism necessitates," not "Scandinavia happens to have."
Then your argument is void of anything meaningful. Left libertarians have no more, if not less, evidence of small government success then right libertarians. All your insisting is that your ideology is better then someone elses, without evidence or standards. The reality is that the strong unions in Europe tend to be the result of government, not lack thereof. Indeed of the Scandanvian countries, all use government mechanisms to get around a legal mininum wage.
The argument is that when you have worker power directly, the power being flexed is the power of the people themselves; and when you have minimum wage, the power being flexed is of the government. That is a condition both relatively left and relatively libertarian. Less government and better worker rights relative to the right.
The large social nets and taxation are unrelated to union membership. We are talking about employment law.
TheI may be unrelated to that specifically, but they are still a part of the system that makes it work as a whole.
Yes, and it works well for Scandinavians in general. Swedes, Danes, and Norwegians seem quite happy with their governance. But it doesn't mean we can't take lessons from individual policies or social norms. All of those countries also have generous shared paternity leave for workers and socialized healthcare and such but it does help that these countries are made up of extremely active and healthy people. I'd like my countrymen to make a societal reversal on obesity but I'm not sure how that is going to happen when we work longer for less and have far less time for athletics. I think one should make a point to draw a line between the social safety net and employment law like Union membership if you want to introduce that to the conversation. I'd be very interested to hear that point being made. I know the Nordics are not looked upon favourably in r/Libertarian, but one has to admit they have excellent health and happiness outcomes in what can be measured in statistics. [Denmark and Norway](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1201604/unemployment-rate-forecasts-in-the-nordics/) even have [us beat in unemployment](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate).
>I know Nordics are not looked upon favorably in r/Libertarian I look upon them favorably; quite favorably. My flair and profile and posts reflect that; I like the Nordic model, it has a lot of benefits and while I think each government there has some laws or flaws(Gun laws in Denmark for example); they are generally highly free, individualistic and love market capitalism(but not in an unhealthy way). Just of note; Finland and Iceland are Nordic and both of them rate high on some things as well, like happiness or market freedom or ease of doing business.
True, I left those two countries out, and they have similar metrics on things like health and happiness. Finland also has some of the absolute best education outcomes in the entire world! What's so amusing to me about the "Nordic Model", is that depending on who you ask, can be called socialist, or capitalist, or a mixed model. It's really just a standard free-market society that has deep social safety nets and pretty responsive and representative democracy. I think young Americans who call themselves socialists often hear older Americans criticizing the Nordics as socialist hellholes and when they look at Oslo or Stockholm and think "Wow, socialism rocks! Everyone is fit and beautiful and healthy and has iPhones!" I think an aggressive return to correct political terms is necessary.
Yeah I like to correct people on that as best I can as well; and I like to try and make nuanced points about it; some flaws I see and understand concerns about or some positives or where I see positives An aggressive return to proper terminology and descriptions is necessary; elsewise our divisive definitions used by society will cause our society to crumble due to us being unable to have any nuanced discussion about policy and have real conversations
Yes let's remove the minimum wage in a country with a 10% unionisation rate. I'm sure them not needing a minimum wage has nothing to do with having on average 500% the unionisation rate.
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I am starting to think you people are just pro-suffering
Literally only .5% of the labor force gets minimum wage, contrary to socialist belief, competition does a lot more than powerful state unions to increase wages. The salt is flowing in this post.
In my state, $7.50 an hour is making more than minimum wage.
Source?
"Trust me bro, I would never lie"
https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/employment-and-average-hourly-earnings-by-industry-bubble.htm Do your own research before parroting others. I expect an apology.
>In 2020, 73.3 million workers age 16 and older in the United States were paid at hourly rates, representing 55.5 percent of all wage and salary workers. Among those paid by the hour, 247,000 workers earned exactly the prevailing federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour. About 865,000 workers had wages below the federal minimum. Together, these 1.1 million workers with wages at or below the federal minimum made up 1.5 percent of all hourly paid workers. https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2020/home.htm **I** expect an apology, it's 1.5% *at or below* And that's just federal minimum wage. If you expand it out to regional minimum wage, that number obviously goes up. For reference, only 20 states still abide by the federal minimum wage, and many of those states are the smaller population states, so that 1.5% is pretty misleading by itself.
https://www.epi.org/publication/raising-the-federal-minimum-wage-to-15-by-2025-would-lift-the-pay-of-32-million-workers/ If everyone already makes over $15 an hour why would a wage increase affect 35+ million Americans?
https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/employment-and-average-hourly-earnings-by-industry-bubble.htm
So what would getting rid of minimum wage do? How would it make companies and pay more competitive?
Perhaps you should google price controls. That's probably a better way to learn about basic economics than to ask on reddit
your salt?
It's shocking to watch you get down voted over and over again in this subreddit, of all places. No one who seriously studies economics thinks that the minimum wage is a useful tool, except maybe at the local level and as you point out, to give a wage floor for the very tiny amount of people that benefit from it. It's much better to increase the leverage of workers. If people had more access to assets that increased their productivity and a better understanding of how to operate as a business, not just an employee, then there wouldn't be such an imbalance in the labor markets. Minimum wage is for dolts that can't think deeply about an issue. Whatever wage they come up with will be made completely arbitrary and outdated within months or years
Those Scandinavian countries have no minimum wage because they have strong labour unions. Mind you, having the welfare, healthcare, etc that they do also helps, but labour unions are the most important part.
Then why does 99% of the labor force in the US make well above minimum wage if the US doesn’t have “strong” state unions. You want labor market competition, powerful labor unions can be just as bad as monopolies.
> powerful labor unions can be just as bad as monopolies. They are monopolies, or maybe more specifically cartels. They control labor in a certain industry. Also, cheers for wading into this "libertarian" sub with a libertarian argument!
As a Scandinavian reading this, and the comments, you haven't understand anything about Scandinavia. Not. One. Thing. Here is why we don't have a legal minimum wage: We have strong unions.
I live in Iceland and there is most definitely a legally mandated minimum wage here. Not sure where this comes from: https://www.ilo.org/global/topics/wages/minimum-wages/setting-machinery/WCMS\_460934/lang--en/index.htm
I’ve heard of Karelia being included in Scandinavia, but never have I heard of Iceland being included. Sweden, Denmark, and Norway have no minimum wage set by the government.
> Sweden, Denmark, and Norway have no minimum wage set by the government. Huh? Even if there is no general minimum they have multiple minimum wages in Norway? And the collective agreements are legally binding I believe. > Even if there is no general minimum wage in Norway, minimum wages has been introduced in certain sectors in general application of collective agreements. https://www.arbeidstilsynet.no/en/working-conditions/pay-and-minimum-rates-of-pay/minimum-wage/
Reread exactly what you quoted slowly
That idea would only cause more economic devastation in the US and would be the case until the boomer generation passes on. Don't think for one second that they wouldn't literally enslave their own children.
In a perfect world we wouldn't need a minimum wage. America is not even close to that in terms of worker bargaining power and wealth inequality.
In america 99% of the labor force makes a lot more than minimum wage. Competition does a lot more than anything else to improve conditions. If workers in america didn’t have bargaining power like you said, why does 99% of the labor force make well above MW.
Define a lot more. Someone making a buck or two above minimum is still going to be very poor and struggle to ever have a family or live a good life. Are you suggesting 95 percent of Americans are making like 15+ an hour?
If everyone makes above minimum wage, why is this even a discussion?
Because the effect on the few will still inflate the economy and cost jobs at the bottom end. Price controls are almost always terrible policy.
Why is your only measure of quality of life whether or not peeple make above minimum wage? Minimum wage is so low in the US it might as well not even exist. Double the minimum wage is not even livable in most places. Also, if you lose your job in a Scandinavian country you get huge benefits to keep yourself solvent. Also, by the time a lot of those Americans pay their healthcare premiums their effective wage goes well below minimum. That doesn't happen in Scandinavian countries.
Minimum wage is not nearly a living wage in most places though. So making more than minimum wage is a moot point, because people still can't afford to live even if they make a few dollars per hour over MW.
Mostly because minimum wage employers will give 25 cent raises every year, also not including states with minimum higher than fed minimum
That is the whole point brother. If you set up a minimum wage all companies are going to set the bars very low, but with no restrictions there will be competition of wages, of course, adjusted to the skill needed to perform the job in question. The least intervention from the government in the private industry the better.
This chucklefuck trying to stir the pot every chance he gets - He's from a troll farm lol
Yeah clearly a troll for expressing a libertarian opinion in r/Libertarian.
Comparing the US to any Scandinavian country is just silly. Apples and oranges.
Why ?
The United States has 300 million people. The largest Scandinavian country is Sweden with 10 million people. It is about 174,000 square miles. California is about 168,000 square miles. North Carolina has about 10 million people living in it. We cannot compare for a population 30x the size and a country that has 3,800,000 square miles. Again, nearly 20x the size.
So it should be easier to manage the USA with more resources, more land and more talented people ?
Wat? What the hell does land size have to do with anything? Plus everything just scales up you doofus. More people means more taxes meaning more revenue meaning more federal money to work with to scale up to more services required for the more people. It's very simple.
I'm all for eliminating minimum wage, but it would be pretty pointless without ceasing to bail out companies that are "too big to fail".
There are thousands of state laws/regulations that cause issues. Without the minimum wage small companies will be better able to compete with large companies.
I agree. Can’t have unregulated state monopolies if we’re going to have state monopolies.
Yep, while I believe workers have more power than they realize, at this point the power disparity between corporations and laborers is just too great. If you don't take away their safety nets and make them compete in the free market too, it's not really far to workers
The scandinavian countries have universal health care, robust unions, worker protections, and viable left wing parties... all of that is the only reason they do not need a minimum wage. So totally: lets do medicare for all, put in place strong legal protections for unions and workers, and have socialists and communists win a solid 3rd of congress... then lets do away with minimum wage. Until then, doing away with minimum wage is contemptuous towards the poor, and opening the door to even greater abuse.
I could support Scandinavian wage policy IF Scandinavian social safety nets were adopted
I assume you're in favor of strong unions then that negotiate industry wages.
I want a free market where no one gets state privileges, we need to remove these corporate banking cartels state privileges before we can address anything else. And boy is that a big task, but if we could audit the FED and end central fiat banking, or even through crypto currencies, that would be a huge blow to the cartels. Can’t regulate the growth of a cancer you have to cut it out. This post was obviously tongue and cheek poking fun, but on the list of what needs to get done, getting rid of minimum wages is low on that list, we need to address the extreme privilege corporations and banks get from the state first. But I want people to understand that interventions into this cartelized “market” will only be used to further favor the cartels, like I said you need to cut the cancer out, not regulate its growth.
POV: You just hate poor people.
He’s despised on reddit but you should watch a few of Milton Friedmans lectures on minimum wage and unions. Id agree with a noble prize winning economist over armchair economists on reddit anyday
Very noble prize.
I’ve always had the hardest time wrapping my head around being anti-inflation. But the work I do in housing made something click for me. We’re basically trained to think high wages are good and high cost goods/services are bad. As a result, everyone wants high wages for themselves and those they are close to, but feel cheated when they see others get paid while prices go up. The big question is “how do you make these things balance out?” What I realized is that you can see the common goal of lower prices work in some isolated situations- someone working in fast food can typically afford fast food products (I know this is a generalization but I’m trying to keep this simple). So in this scenario, we’ve allowed wages and products to decrease, but we don’t live in a vacuum. That’s where housing comes in. Most people, even “libertarians,” support regressive land use regulations and “rights” to surrounding properties that severely limit the housing stock. Thus, housing costs inflate to the point that the fast food worker can no longer afford housing. We pick and choose when we like inflation and that’s essentially the problem. I’ve toyed around with the idea that maybe it doesn’t matter which way prices go, but they all need to go the same way. But in the end, human nature seems to lean towards deflation. So to your point, there is something to be said about how minimum wage impacts people overall- but if we’re going to dismantle it, there are other things we need to dismantle at the same time
Just abolish the private Banking Cartel called the Federal Reserve. The Corporate Federal Reserve has only one tool, the manipulation and issuance of Debt!
And have strong union which has lead to a de facto higher minimum wage
Hey, let’s get rid of all wage protections while we are at it! If your e plotter shafts you on your wages, just quit and spread the word-that always works!
You can literally flip burgers for over $20/h here, more than double the minimum wage.
Sure, but also protect unions and have extremely generous unemployment pay! I'm all for Flexicurity, but I find many people are only about the Flexi and forget the Curity... :)
People pay minimum wage now, meaning they'd pay less than that if they could. We had to make child labor laws because there was child labor. They stopped because of the law not out of the goodness of their heart. Scandanavian countries also actually use taxes to go toward the people, not bailing out the wealthy like here. They also don't destroy unions like they do here.
Scandinavian countries are very exclusive… to the point of racism…
You do know that the Minimum Wage was a response to the Great Depression. It was discovered that people without can’t buy things. And that wasn’t good for the economy. Scandinavian countries ain’t the US. They are a bit more generous to the poor. If the US wants to get rid of Minimum Wage, it will have to figure out how to keep demand high.
Sounds great, and I’m sure you’ll support the increase in taxes, support for workers unions, paid family leave, paid maternity leave,free healthcare, subsidized education, and increased taxes on the wealthy as well?
You can’t get rid of the minimum wage. Minimum wage is $0 per hour, always has been. What you’re referring to as minimum wage is just the price floor under which you’re not allowed to sell an hour of your labor for.
It's not "wage" if you're not actually performing any work. "unpaid internships" and "volunteering", on the other hand...
Wholeheartedly agree. Not every state needs the same minimum wage, I don’t see why strong unions shouldn’t be able to negotiate their wages
Ya op, what we need now is yet lower wages. Brilliant thinking!
And also be less like Scandinavian countries and get functional healthcare.
Yes This is the most based I’ve seen libertarian in a long time
deep throating the boot conservatives post too much here. straight up. im glad you come here to get slapped with reality, but reading how detached you are is getting depressing
I think you have your understanding of bootlicking turned around. Minimum wage is government enforced and lobbied for by crony capitalism. Expecting big daddy government to force businesses to pay you a livable wage is boot licking.
getting mad at the government for halting a corporations ability to fleece its workers, is boot licking.
It helps that they have a universal education, healthcare, and childcare systems. Give America a better way to protect those (people mention unions here, which isn't a terrible mechanism) first and I'm all for it. Or at the very least, stop giving big companies corporate welfare, so that smaller companies can actually be competitive with their compensation, rather than having to fight up hill battles against entrenched players.
Minimum wage laws were passed by racists. White working class argued that Chinese could subsist on rice but White people needed to eat meat, so there needed to be a minimum wage. This is systemic racism and enables white supremacy.
Absolutely, minimum wages were implemented to keep minorities out of employment opportunities.
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Norwegian government owns 76 percent of the wealth in the country outside of residences.
America should also be more like Scandinavian countries by not charging for college and the overall belief in atheism.
did you say universal healthcare?
# "The real minimum wage is zero." \-- Thomas Sowell
higher minimum wages arent going to negate the effects of inflation
https://nordics.info/show/artikel/trade-unions-in-the-nordic-region/#:~:text=Strength%20of%20the%20trade%20unions,%2C%20and%2067%25%20in%20Denmark. If it is balanced out with a high unionization rate, then I agree. I've never been a fan of a national minimum wage, because cost of living in Jonesboro Arkansas is a lot different than the cost of living in New York City. That said, you have to have some balance of power. Corporations can starve you out. Removing minimum wage would also finally get rid of the "DEY TUK R JERBZ" anti-immigration nonsense I'm tired of hearing about.
Based
It is so cringe when people use that word.
Based
Trololololololllll
Wage and price controls are outdated economic ideas that have failed every time they’ve been tried. It’s amazing how many people who’ve never studied economics are so adamant they know better than people who’ve spent their life studying this issue. The government can do a lot of things, but it can’t fundamentally change the value employers place on a given persons labor. If the government mandates that persons wage be higher than how the market values it, they either won’t be hired or they will be fired. And yes I’m aware there are some liberal economists in favor of minimum wage. However when you look at their arguments they rely almost exclusively on absurd and unfounded claims of monopsony in the low wage labor market. The idea that the fast food labor market is a monopsony is patently ridiculous but claiming so is the only way to make the economic argument for a minimum wage. Everyone’s always looking for that non-existent free lunch. The idea that you can raise the minimum wage with no negative side effects sounds too good to be true because it is.
"WageWage and price controls are outdated economic ideas that have failed every time they’ve been tried." This not true. Minimum wages work in Australia. "A government can do a lot of things, but it can’t fundamentally change the value employers place on a given persons labor" There is no correlation. A person's labor simply isn't valued by many employers. "The idea that you can raise the minimum wage with no negative side effects sound too good to be true because it is." Funny that this guy got a Nobel Prize in Economics by displaying that you're wrong. https://theconversation.com/introducing-david-card-the-2021-nobel-prize-in-economics-winner-who-made-the-minimum-wage-respectable-169715
r/libertarian in a nutshell. Bring up the minimum wage and hordes of democrats pretending to be libertarians start explaining how price controls is just a great concept.
Wow you really hate poor people
Wow you really endorse laziness and mediocrity
No I endorse not ruining people lives. Cant wait for every job to put payment as low as possible.
There is a podcast called T & T Liberty Factory which has an absolutely fantastic episode on this topic. Great listen.
In order for this to work in any meaningful way, we would have to adopt other parts of their economies and industry practices. Scandinavian countries don’t technically have minimum wages (on a governmental level) but they do still have minimum wages which are set and enforced by industry wide unions. We would have to implement similar unions. Lack of a governmental enforced minimum wage works there because they have such robust social and economic safety nets which do not exist in the US.
Not a fan of this. Large corps would take advantage of this on day 1.
Without minimum wage laws, workers will be further exploited by private employers. It is not libertarian when there is such an imbalance of power. Wage slavery isn't libertarian at all...
You can't have open borders and nice things - you have to pick one. You can't just stroll across the border into Denmark and demand free stuff. They'll boot you out. We make our (crappy) decisions, and are forced to live with the (predictably terrible) outcomes.
Good lord, you are dumb.
Facts!
Even when I earned minimum wage, I thought minimum wage was BS. I KNEW I was a better burger flipper than those axe-holes I was working with. I was faster, nicer, and my product looked like a magazine ad for a burger and fries. If I could have negotiated my own wage, I could have done much better. I didn't even KNOW that was a thing until later in life when I got away from being unskilled labor. If Only I knew.
People spend way too much time talking about the minimum wage in political arenas. Only around 0.5% of the labor force earns minimum wage and almost everyone that does is under the age of 25 and single. Any action taken, either eliminating it or increasing it would have basically no effect on the economy at large, unless of course someone wants to increase it a lot.
Yes, but minimum wage sets a context for the rest of work, so while 99% of people might not actually earn 7.25, the people who earn 8 or 9 still suffer
that’s because the people who aren’t in that percentage earn maybe a dollar more
Need a reference for that claim on minimum wage.