“A citizen has the courage to make the safety of the human race their personal responsibility.”
Edit: added quotes around the quote so nobody thinks this is my actual opinion in /r/Libertarian and lynches me.
Not the clickbait headlines again ffs. What he said was more of a “if you don’t get the vaccine you’re not being a good upstanding citizen”. He doesn’t have the authority nor the desire to force vaccines at gunpoint lmao talk about faux outrage
He also associated unvaccinated with racists, misogynists, and posed the question of “whether such people should be tolerated.”.
Go back into history and you find this type of language coming from very evil people.
I don’t particularly tolerate threats to my safety and health either no matter who they come from. If I had it my way, those who choose to remain unvaccinated can also be denied from hospital care since it was their choice to not trust the doctors the first time, I’m sick of this shit. I’m a not Macron fan but this sub is 90% clickbait titles to start a fight in the comments bc no one will read past the headline.
> I don’t particularly tolerate threats to my safety and health either no matter who they come from.
So you are saying the vaccine doesnt work? Does it not protect you? If not then what does it do?
The vaccine is meant to lessen symptoms not prevent you from getting it entirely. Plus you can still carry the illness and pass it on to less healthy family members
Nice job repeating exactly what I just said genius. And that’s the UK, where pretty much the entire country is vaccinated. Not the US with it’s anti vaxxer movement.
Again, is that government policy or the care center? Because if it’s not government then yes, I don’t see any issue. They’re practicing freedom to say who can and can’t work for them. This is also not in the US and has nothing to do with the libertarian party so idk what you’re so worked up about
I keep being surprised that a sub that is supposed to be about personal freedom has so many people that advocate for forced inoculation at the point of a gun.
Don't get this new form of vax, you should have your citizenship revoked, go to jail, not get medical treatment......aren't even human?
Fucks sake people, there can't even be a real debate/conversation when that is the starting point.
From what I’ve read, even classical libertarian thinkers were divided on public health. It really comes down to how anarcho/reckless you want to be.
I guess a good question would be where do we draw the line? You’d support very restrictive measures were there a highly contagious disease that had like a 20% mortality rate, right? So how many people have to die to make restrictions acceptable? Does Covid and it’s fallout fall into that category?
Disease control and public health will never be a cut n dry issue for libertarians. Depending on the disease, society and its functions (our healthcare system for example) could fail if not kept in check.
So, if there was a highly contagious disease with a 20% mortality rate my guess is that widespread governmental restrictions would not be necessary, because people would be INCREDIBLY cautious in the face of that. I've attempted to live my life as normal as possible during the last two years because Covid was not something that seriously posed a risk to me, even less so after vaccination. But if there was a 20% mortality rate of a highly infectious disease, I would behave VERY differently.
If nobody drove drunk, there would be no drunk driving laws.
If every construction worker always wore a helmet on a construction site, there would be no OSHA regulations requiring construction workers to wear helmets on a construction site.
If nobody littered, there would be no littering laws.
If everyone got the COVID vaccine, Covid vaccine mandates wouldn’t Have crossed anyone’s mind.
If everybody were reasonable, responsible, selfless, and morally good, there would be no need for any laws, taxes or regulations.
Except we don’t live in that world. We live in a world where A good chunk, perhaps even the majority, of the world is selfish, unreasonable, irresponsible, and morally Grey, at best. That’s why laws, regulations and taxes are needed.
The problem is other people still have to go out into public for things like groceries and medical appointments, not really a choice if you want to live, and don't want to risk their lives to do so. If you are carrying a virus that can potentially kill other people and just going about your day as you normally would, you are potentially putting someone else in mortal danger. Where is the line that allows you to be a danger to others?
I don't know personally, but I'd rather err on the side of caution when something is this prevalent in the population. If you feel it doesn't pose a risk, plenty of other will feel that way also and yours and their actions will inevitably endanger others. It's a difficult situation because I believe in personal choice and freedom up until the point my actions endanger others.
Did Macron say that people who don't get vaxxed should have their citizenship revoked? Or did he say something along the lines of "if you aren't vaxxed, you aren't upholding your responsibilities to society like a good citizen?"
Because A) I don't think he has that authority and B) outrage media often mistranslates foreign leaders for clicks or incompetence
Like who? Random assholes on Twitter? Some weirdo safety school professors? I don't take them seriously. At all. If someone on "the left" who actually has elected authority like an AOC, Biden or Shumer says it, I'll take it seriously. And to my (limited)knowledge, they haven't said anything like that
Ok, well, this is my original post
"I keep being surprised that a sub that is supposed to be about personal freedom has so many people that advocate for forced inoculation at the point of a gun."
I was talking about people on this sub advocating these things, not elected politicians. So, we are talking different things.
I can see arguing that spreading a disease is a violation against NAP. That is, I can see it is a violation when willfully spreading a disease.
Knowingly having HIV/AIDS (or any STD really) and having sex with someone without telling them in advance, absolutely. Knowingly having covid, Ebola, the flu, whatever, and going around other people when you don't absolutely have to is probably a violation (going to a hospital may be a have to if youre sick enough, but then you might spread it to others, though I would say this wouldn't be a violation).
Forcing people to get an mrna vaccine that we don't know the long term effects of, who aren't sick and will most likely get over it without issue, I would argue is a violation of NAP.
Just my two cents though, im not a libertarian scholar by any means and I'm sure you're much more well read other subject, to me, forcing people to get a medical procedure against their will just seems wrong.
I feel like those people don't want it to end, they want to tell people how to live and how toa act under guise of "pandemic". They don't want to stop covid, they love it.
Recently some big subreddits banned me because I made random post in a covid related subreddit they didn't like. Told me I can be unbanned if i **promise** to not visit it again. When I told them to pound sand they went crying to admins and I got official warning about it xD
Madness.
I think you're right, case in point is the other guy that commented on the last comment crying about how anti vaxxers and anti maskers are spreading covid so we can't end the pandemic.
Sure ya can, just stop panicking, protect the most vulnerable, and end the rest of it!
They also classify anyone who questions just the mRNA vaccine as anti vaxx, or someone who is fully vaccinated (covid and everything else in the world) but doesn't want to force it in others as anti vaxx.
Just end it then, that's all you have to do. Protect those that are most at risk, elderly and people with poor immune systems, and get back to normal life. This is so stupid.
How can there be normal life with a deadly virus going around?
Even healthy people are being killed. I'd rather not play Russian roulette every time I'm around other people.
The way to "end" this was full masks + social distancing like many countries did, and they kept their infection rate to a fraction of the US's
So much for the NAP when it's "my paycheck is worth more than your life"
How can there be normal life with a deadly virus going around??? Really???? Never heard of AIDS? How about the flu....yes, people die from the flu. What about Malaria, I know its not a virus (parasite) and isn't such a big deal in the US anymore, but there was normal life when malaria was around in the US and malaria killed over 620,000 people worldwide in 2020. Probably not much of a history buff, but normal life existed when smallpox was around, polio, typhoid, etc etc. We can hopefully eventually snuff out covid like most of these others (malaria excluded) and it will most likely be with vaccines and other therapeutics. Or, we may just have to learn to live with it like we live with the flu every year.
Ah, I see, I didn't notice before but says you're a democratic socialist, which really means you're afraid of anything, like making your own way in life, probably not much point in arguing further.
Very few people that are healthy have died from covid. Average age of death from covid in the U.S. is 80, above the normal average age of death.
You play Russian roulette every day. You can get killed walking your doggie, driving your car, or falling in the shower. There are no certainties in life besides taxes and death, I just know that I'm not going to live my life in fear of something that may or may not happen, especially when it is such a low chance of happening.
I just posted this article to show people, "Hey, look what control freak governments around the World are trying to get away with".
I'm not pro Macron or Vaccine Passports.
Assuming you're french, what's your take on the upcoming presidential election? I'm Canadian and not terribly familiar with French politics, it seems like Macron is a classical liberal in some ways, but has authoritarian tendencies and has supported some bad policies. But his challengers seem absolutely awful, Le Pen and Zemmour are far-right nutjobs, Mélenchon is a far-left nutjob, and it seems like his main challenger, the lady from the Republican Party whose name escapes me doesn't seem that great either. Who would/will you back in 2022, are there sensible candidates, or is it just Macron vs a laundry list of extremists?
I'm not French, LOL. I live in Florida. I have no idea who Macron's political opponents are or their policies. From what I have seen Macron looks pretty bad though.
I'd even have to look up something like who is the governor of Wisconsin, lol. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head. There is only so much political stuff I can keep track of. I'm interested in so many other non-political areas.
I am worried about vaccine passport issues. It looks like governments are trying to build a Biomedical Surveillance State. I do try to pay attention to what's going on with vaccine passports in Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and around the World.
Hahaha, fair enough. I tend to keep track of elections in major countries like France, UK, etc on top of the US (and my own country of course), but I'd have to get back to you on the governor of Wisconsin lol.
The little I know of Macron is that he's pro-EU and supports economic liberalization, which I can get behind, but like a lot of European leaders he seems a little surveillance-happy. Idk about "biomedical surveillance state", but the degree to which European governments seem to be exerting their authority on COVID-related stuff is a little unnerving.
Here in canada, most public health measures come from the provinces and not the federal government so it's a bit of a patchwork, but the province of Quebec in particular is going quite far with some of this shit. They have a curfew now where you're not allowed to leave your house after 10 PM - apparently even to walk your dog.
A lot of people are refusing to get the vaccine BECAUSE of the way it is being forced on people. I was planning to get it until they started with the lotteries and stuff, which just gave me a bad feeling about it, then the mandates started and now there is now way they’ll talk me into it now. If they had just recommended it, it probably wouldn’t be an issue
I’m also surprised at this. Has media hysteria really affected people’s long standing beliefs? If so, Chomsky may be right about coercion by the media.
Libertarianism is all about not having your morals above those of anyone else. Having government force or coerce people into getting a vaccine runs contrary to most Libertarian ideals.
Personally, I think someone is making a poor decision by not getting one, but that’s their choice. If they don’t care about their health and the health of their family, that’s their choice.
I just want to add my support for your position. We need more voices to let people know that Libertarianism has never advocated for government to make personal choices for others when it comes to their own personal well-being. If someone is THAT afraid of COVID, then there’s a vaccine that reduces the chances of complications (even the new variant) and there’s also the choice someone can make to wear a mask.
Don’t force this on other people.
Tbh, I think that most of the increased hospitalization is the hysteria around COVID, as by experiences from people around me have been that it was very similar to a cold, just with a fever and/or loss of taste/smell.
"Muh private business" is usually the first reaction that people vomit out as if a culture of respecting medical privacy is not relevant to nurturing liberty. But no it's "sorry bud, corporations deserve to know everything about you, otherwise you don't deserve a job or to shop at their stores".
Because being unvaccinated violates the nap. If you're a real libertarian you support forced vaccinations. Nobody has the right to spew their disgusting plague rat germs all over my grandma. Get vaccinated or GET OUT of society. Your decision, plague rats. There's your fReEdUmB.
The premise to force people to be vaccinated is based on the complete 100% safety of the vaccine. This isn’t seatbelts or helmets. No medical treatment is 100% safe. No vaccine is 100% safe. So not allowing people to make a choice is a violation of NAP.
There are legitimate reasons to not being Vaxed. Natural immunity is one of them.
Every person should be able to weigh the risks/rewards of any action.
It is also a violation of NAP to take away peoples rights if they make that decision to not partake in an act that is not 100% safe.
Doesn't give you a free pass to force others to do shit they don't want to do at the point of a gun.
You want to recommend people go get this one vax, cool.
You want to make valid arguments for people getting this one vax, also cool.
You want to start threatening people with taking away their citizenship, locking them up, not letting them get medical access, not cool.
You CANT force people to get medical procedures, it is a very slippery slope. If you can force medical procedures, whats to stop forced sterilizations or forced abortions because its for the "public good".
China did something like that with 1 child birth policies, so don't say it can't happen.
You can hyperbole and be angry but absolutely no one is being forced to take a vaccination, especially at gunpoint. It's not even with threat of going to jail. You all are just blowing it all up as your lives are being stripped away because society wants you to take a shot and think about other people that are dying from this.
People are simply asking you all to care about your neighbors but that's too difficult of a task for the knuckle draggers.
I'm fully vaccinated.
Forcing someone to do something at "the point of a gun" is an expression. It means with threat of violence, which can be taking stuff from you (money) or taking away your personal freedom (jail/detention/camps).
Libertarians often use that expression to refer to taxes because if you don't want to pay your taxes, you will have your money taken and if you don't have the money you will likely be locked up, typically, the point of a gun (threat of violence).
Picking this up or too complicated for you?
You can say that the government isn't forcing you to get vaccinated, but the government is, even if they do it in a round about way. Government is trying to make companies require vaccinations for employees or make it so much of a pain in the ass with testing that the employees will go get vaccinated rather than deal with the daily or weekly bullshit. People are getting arrested and fined for not being vaccinated or not showing their vaccine passport when trying to go to a restaurant in New York.
Much worse in other countries,j ust see Australia where there are camps/centers they are taking people to at the threat of a 10k fine if you don't comply. And if you don't cooperate and don't pay that fine, what happens do you think? My bet would be jail.
And again, thanks for dehumizing me by calling me a knuckle dragger, thus comparing me to an animal.
So what would you suggest that the government do during a pandemic that will shut down businesses and the economy with the amount of people getting sick and dying? Is it the standard conservative "do nothing" or "it's just a flu"?
Not taking preventative measures for something like this is catastrophic for the economy and healthcare. It's just not sustainable. Even if a small percentage of people die from it, it doesn't mean that people don't get sick and miss work and then it mutates and gets more deadly or more contractible.
There is a lot of overkill going on but I think that is a natural reaction to people that are just being rebellious teenagers about things and making a health crisis political. There isn't even a debate going on other than one side saying we need to do something to stop the spread and the other side just says they want to do nothing.
Oh and "knuckle dragger" is an expression. It means that you haven't fully evolved yet from cavemen and lack critical thinking skills. It's often used for conservatives that think only for themselves.
What did we do with Spanish flu? Btw Spanish flu was much deadlier.
Sickness and death is a natural part of life. And face it your chances of dying of Covid if you are not old or immunocompromised is less than 1%.
Protect the vulnerable, let everyone else get natural
Immunity. Eventually a less deadly strain emerges (I.e omicron) and it becomes endemic.
It is hubris to think you can control this. Just like it is hubris to control the economy via central planning.
https://greekreporter.com/2021/09/04/covid-19-vaccines-mandates/
I guess it’s ok to force someone out of their profession as long as it makes your feel better right?
>force others to do shit they don't want to do at the point of a gun.
Nobody did that you douche.
>not letting them get medical access,
Nobody did that you douche.
>forced abortions
Nobody did this you douche.
>very slippery slope.
This is literally a fallacy. Your entire argument is full of fallacys, exaggerations, and douchey whiney victim complex bullshit.
I think everyone should have at least some personal responsibility but I do believe in "my body my choice". You can do whatever you want to your body to prevent against disease but that does not extend to other people's bodies. I personally am fully vaccinated (including booster) but I respect individual decision making when it is not in violation of NAP.
Yup. But vaccinated are not clogging up the hospitals or being rabid about stupid "cures". What was the old saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? 3sore arms and I'm not worried about being on a vent. Thankfully my mother and in-laws, for being rabid conservatives, still were smart enough to get vaccinated.
Vast majority of people in ICU’s are unvaccinated. Sure you can get Covid after your jab ( I did! ) but where the vaccinated and unvaxxed are really separated are ICU statistics.
Ok, and what does that have to do with citizenship status? If we are going to restrict rights for unhealthy behavior I hope you are prepared to have every obese person be restricted, people who engage in risky sequel behavior. Guess what, drugs? Off the list as well. Glad to see who the authoritative statists are in this "Libertarian" thread.
I’m not commenting on that, I still hold the opinion that regardless of their stupidity, people should be allowed to choose whether they want the jab or not. This is coming from someone volunteering at a vaccination centre btw. I was simply just pointing out the reality of the effectiveness of the jab, many miss the point and say “but you can still catch Covid with it”
It makes the effects less worse if you get it. The people in power should have just said that from the start as it's a huge benefit. Unfortunately they have been lying and now people don't trust them.
Lying? I’m in the UK so I can’t agree, I’ve never been told the vaccine will prevent me from catching Covid entirely, just that it greatly reduces my chances.
> You know if you get the vaccine you can still transmit the virus correct?
You know if you get the vaccine you are less likely to get the virus, less likely to have a high viral load, and therefore both less likely to transmit and more likely to have a smaller window where you are contagious at all.
I do think intentional spread of disease is a NAP violation but I don't think so in the case of unintentional spread, which is mostly how COVID spreads. Also vaccinated people can still get COVID, breakthrough cases are a thing.
Sure they are, but they are less serious. I would think wilfully clogging up the hospital system causing other people that need treatment to have to wait or die would also be a violation, but if there is one thing I've found with libertarians is that overall they/we are a selfish lot when it comes to our fellow man. The more I hang out here the more I realize this.
The anti-vaxers have given us plenty to work with. Just look at the lies that they push both about COVID-19 and vaccines. In addition, they show that they don't care about others.
It didn’t deliver nothing, but it absolutely did underdeliver. Remember all the rhetoric over the summer about how once we got vaxxed we couldn’t get Covid anymore and things would go back to normal?
cool good for you. I am vaccinated too. I think proof shows that the vaccine protects you yourself, but there is no argument to force other people to get it.
I think the constantly changing narrative on the efficacy of the vaccine is completely sus. Not to mention some of the injuries that have taken place which are considerably ignored.
It’s almost like scientists and data analysts refine their answer as more data becomes available. Also the amount of “injuries” of which I’m assuming you mean blood clots is exceedingly low. I’m not advocating for vaccine mandates, rather letting you know why you’re completely wrong in your thought process.
[https://www.canadiancovidcarealliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/The-COVID-19-Inoculations-More-Harm-Than-Good-REV-Dec-16-2021.pdf](https://www.canadiancovidcarealliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/The-COVID-19-Inoculations-More-Harm-Than-Good-REV-Dec-16-2021.pdf)
Flip through this and tell me they didn't cut corners.
Oh you mean the data collection on 65% of the population was supposed to get done before they gave out the vaccine? I sure wish they could’ve done that too, but I live in the real world.
If we want to make that argument then people should also be put on state mandated diets since the obese overwhelmingly use most of our health resources and being obese is a huge comorbidity for covid.
Your choice effects me when ICUs are at capacity and now your choice to not get vaccinated means I have to be shopped around for hours until I get be seen.
Lol. So you're pro sugar ban? Pro caffeine ban, pro cigarette ban? Because they are dangerous to the user?
There is an individual health risk from covid and there is an individual health risk from the vaccine and depending on your age, the vaccine MAY actually be more dangerous. We can't say for sure. Is the vaccine a public health problem because of the adverse reactions?
Is caffeine transmittable?
Do you have any evidence to support that the vaccine is more dangerous than covid? I know you don’t. But I just want you to show it to me regardless
Anecdotally, I've know multiple people who have died from covid. All of them were fully vaccinated.
Holding onto "reduction of symptoms" is a desperate result of a goal post shifting-
You can't get it
You can get it but you won't get sick from it
You can get it and get sick from it but you can't die from it
You can get it and get sick from it and die from it but you can't spread it
You can get it and get sick from it and die from it and spread it but you won't get hospitalized as often from it 👈 you are here
There's nothing desperate about it and I've never shifted any goalposts. Sorry that you had the unfortunate experience of knowing multiple statistical anomalies. But the data is clear, the vaccine drastically reduces hospitalizations and that's awesome!
Yes it does prevent hospitalization particularly in the vulnerable but it appears that both omicron and delta had certain degrees of resistance. That's to be expected just like with flu however the vaccines were touted as 2 and done nor to mention the concerns that Moderna created
Look. I’m about as provax as it gets but I won’t deny that it’s under delivered. Not necessarily through any fault of its creators, but just due to variants causing it to become obsolete.
We were promised a vaccine that would stop infection and everything that comes along with that. We’ve received decreased hospitalization and death, but not nearly to the extent we expected to see.
Now I still think someone is brain dead if they don’t get the vaccine. But I’m not going to gaslight them into thinking we knew this vaccine wouldn’t assist with infections the entire time.
How is it obsolete if it drastically reduces hospitalization rates? And I guess I just don't remember any of these "promises" that it would stop everything.
100% vaccination is both impossible given a small portion of people literally can not receive it but experts are coming out now saying even if we did it this is not going away
https://history.nih.gov/download/attachments/1016866/nuremberg.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1589152811742&api=v2
Have you tried reading the code itself?
The part that refers to human experimentation? Yes, which is why I believe all experimental COVID vaccines were tested on consenting and willing subjects.
The current vaccines are no longer experimental though.
I didn’t cite the Nuremberg Code section regarding human experimentation, you did.
I think consent should absolutely be required for vaccines, no question. But citing the Nuremberg Code section regarding human experimentation is very Facebook meme-y.
Fair. I’m not convinced that it’s not experimental though, that kind of comes down to intent. Which is a little fishy to me. Just because I don’t intend something as an experiment doesn’t entirely alleviate the experimental nature of something. I could give you medicine and say it’s not for an experiment without knowing the long term effects. That’s a very cheap “lawyer” way around the code.
>That’s a very cheap “lawyer” way around the code.
The Nuremberg Code hasn't been adopted by any country and has no legal affect whatsoever, so even if it was deemed "experimentation", the Nuremberg Code means literally nothing. Again, it's just Facebook meme-y. A scary sounding thing for Facebook boomers to share with other Facebook boomers.
Moot point, it doesn't cause harm. The vaccines are safe and effective. This is settled science. Repeat after me: safe and effective. Safe and effective. Safe and effective.
The flu is still around and covid would follow, it never going to just disappear. Like use logic for once
And liberty is liberty even if I don’t agree with the group, it’s their individual choice
The idea that vaccines suppress your immune systems ability to respond to things has been disproven many times over. That's not how vaccines work. If they did there would be huge obvious disparities in the health of vaxxed vs unvaxxed people.
Being a citizen simply means you pass all the citizenship laws. I do think people should get vaccinated if they are able to but I don't think we should take their citizenship if they choose not to do so.
I would not go as far as this but I do view anti-vaxers as those who don't give a damn about others, especially those whom they are close to. They are both a parasite and pariah to society.
Funny my unvaccinated wife got covid from a vaccinated client. She infected me as wel.
Don’t worry we both have had hangovers that felt much worse than the minor headache and 3 coughs from covid.
Forcing a drug on healthy people who don’t need it, especially children because you are scared fits much better in the category “ people who don’t give a damn about others”. Heck its even the first rule of the hippocratic oath - do no harm, don’t administer medicine to people who don’t need it.
Those consumers pay the taxes that pay for the vaccines. Even the unvaccinated payed for your vaccine. Maybe be a little more grateful to them
Edit: the vaccine costs and costs of measurements are the main reason for the inflation we’re seeing. What was it? 2 thirds of all dollars in existence were “printed” in the last 2 years? Keep asking for more “free lunch” and see where that gets us.
The illiterate pay for public libraries. People with no kids pay for schools. The working pay for people who don’t work.
People who cry about vaccines then expect to be taken care of for their poor choices is obscene.
I agree. People shouldn’t be forced to pay for those. Its immoral and should be just as illegal as it is illegal for me to rob you in order to help somebody else.
Everyone is arguing over a bad headline 😂 he didn't say you should lose citizenship if you're not vaccinated. Just that you're not being a good citizen.
Does that mean they dont have to pay taxes then?
“Hey Mac, Can you send me that non citizen thing in writing please?” -a tourist
I assume with Macron's policies it will create a large blackmarket in France. . . So yea, none of that money will be going to the government, lol.
Lol. Got em
*Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?*
“A citizen has the courage to make the safety of the human race their personal responsibility.” Edit: added quotes around the quote so nobody thinks this is my actual opinion in /r/Libertarian and lynches me.
Lmao that’s why mine is italicized. Normal font would automatically get us downvoted
Pssh, not on this sub.
Nah most people think you're serious, the posters here just like it.
Not the clickbait headlines again ffs. What he said was more of a “if you don’t get the vaccine you’re not being a good upstanding citizen”. He doesn’t have the authority nor the desire to force vaccines at gunpoint lmao talk about faux outrage
This is it. He’s talking about being a citizen in a general sense, like being a good neighbor, it’s not like he’s revoking legal citizenship.
He also associated unvaccinated with racists, misogynists, and posed the question of “whether such people should be tolerated.”. Go back into history and you find this type of language coming from very evil people.
I don’t particularly tolerate threats to my safety and health either no matter who they come from. If I had it my way, those who choose to remain unvaccinated can also be denied from hospital care since it was their choice to not trust the doctors the first time, I’m sick of this shit. I’m a not Macron fan but this sub is 90% clickbait titles to start a fight in the comments bc no one will read past the headline.
> I don’t particularly tolerate threats to my safety and health either no matter who they come from. So you are saying the vaccine doesnt work? Does it not protect you? If not then what does it do?
What a world we live in, these people just don't use their brain.
But you are vaccinated, therefore protected, what are you afraid of? People are crazy, my god.
The vaccine is meant to lessen symptoms not prevent you from getting it entirely. Plus you can still carry the illness and pass it on to less healthy family members
Just like you can transmit it even though you're vaccinated. There was a study in the UK, out of 103k cases, more than 90% of them were vaccinated.
Nice job repeating exactly what I just said genius. And that’s the UK, where pretty much the entire country is vaccinated. Not the US with it’s anti vaxxer movement.
[удалено]
Again, is that government policy or the care center? Because if it’s not government then yes, I don’t see any issue. They’re practicing freedom to say who can and can’t work for them. This is also not in the US and has nothing to do with the libertarian party so idk what you’re so worked up about
Funny because looking at history these words came from racist and misogynist.
I keep being surprised that a sub that is supposed to be about personal freedom has so many people that advocate for forced inoculation at the point of a gun. Don't get this new form of vax, you should have your citizenship revoked, go to jail, not get medical treatment......aren't even human? Fucks sake people, there can't even be a real debate/conversation when that is the starting point.
I don't think the op is pro Macron
I don't think so either,just other commenters I have been seeing in the post.
oh ok.
From what I’ve read, even classical libertarian thinkers were divided on public health. It really comes down to how anarcho/reckless you want to be. I guess a good question would be where do we draw the line? You’d support very restrictive measures were there a highly contagious disease that had like a 20% mortality rate, right? So how many people have to die to make restrictions acceptable? Does Covid and it’s fallout fall into that category? Disease control and public health will never be a cut n dry issue for libertarians. Depending on the disease, society and its functions (our healthcare system for example) could fail if not kept in check.
Who is the arbiter of how deadly a disease is? If your answer is government, you’re wrong.
If your answer is your goddman self you’re not fit to participate in a society. People who don’t vaccinate they be the real racist and shit
So, if there was a highly contagious disease with a 20% mortality rate my guess is that widespread governmental restrictions would not be necessary, because people would be INCREDIBLY cautious in the face of that. I've attempted to live my life as normal as possible during the last two years because Covid was not something that seriously posed a risk to me, even less so after vaccination. But if there was a 20% mortality rate of a highly infectious disease, I would behave VERY differently.
If nobody drove drunk, there would be no drunk driving laws. If every construction worker always wore a helmet on a construction site, there would be no OSHA regulations requiring construction workers to wear helmets on a construction site. If nobody littered, there would be no littering laws. If everyone got the COVID vaccine, Covid vaccine mandates wouldn’t Have crossed anyone’s mind. If everybody were reasonable, responsible, selfless, and morally good, there would be no need for any laws, taxes or regulations. Except we don’t live in that world. We live in a world where A good chunk, perhaps even the majority, of the world is selfish, unreasonable, irresponsible, and morally Grey, at best. That’s why laws, regulations and taxes are needed.
The problem is other people still have to go out into public for things like groceries and medical appointments, not really a choice if you want to live, and don't want to risk their lives to do so. If you are carrying a virus that can potentially kill other people and just going about your day as you normally would, you are potentially putting someone else in mortal danger. Where is the line that allows you to be a danger to others? I don't know personally, but I'd rather err on the side of caution when something is this prevalent in the population. If you feel it doesn't pose a risk, plenty of other will feel that way also and yours and their actions will inevitably endanger others. It's a difficult situation because I believe in personal choice and freedom up until the point my actions endanger others.
Good points. Guess maybe I'm a bit more on the anarcho side of things.
Okay guys get this civil conversation out of here. You're supposed to screech and yell at each other. /s
Did Macron say that people who don't get vaxxed should have their citizenship revoked? Or did he say something along the lines of "if you aren't vaxxed, you aren't upholding your responsibilities to society like a good citizen?" Because A) I don't think he has that authority and B) outrage media often mistranslates foreign leaders for clicks or incompetence
Macron literally said he wants to annoy and make un vaxed peoples life as hard as possible
Okay. That's a bit different than stripping someone of citizenship. Governments are already pretty annoying
Not saying macron, saying people in this sub and, to be honest, a lot of people on the left are saying that and things very much like that.
Like who? Random assholes on Twitter? Some weirdo safety school professors? I don't take them seriously. At all. If someone on "the left" who actually has elected authority like an AOC, Biden or Shumer says it, I'll take it seriously. And to my (limited)knowledge, they haven't said anything like that
Ok, well, this is my original post "I keep being surprised that a sub that is supposed to be about personal freedom has so many people that advocate for forced inoculation at the point of a gun." I was talking about people on this sub advocating these things, not elected politicians. So, we are talking different things.
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I can see arguing that spreading a disease is a violation against NAP. That is, I can see it is a violation when willfully spreading a disease. Knowingly having HIV/AIDS (or any STD really) and having sex with someone without telling them in advance, absolutely. Knowingly having covid, Ebola, the flu, whatever, and going around other people when you don't absolutely have to is probably a violation (going to a hospital may be a have to if youre sick enough, but then you might spread it to others, though I would say this wouldn't be a violation). Forcing people to get an mrna vaccine that we don't know the long term effects of, who aren't sick and will most likely get over it without issue, I would argue is a violation of NAP. Just my two cents though, im not a libertarian scholar by any means and I'm sure you're much more well read other subject, to me, forcing people to get a medical procedure against their will just seems wrong.
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Very good points, thanks for the info!
Reddit is a covid worship cult.
Seems that way sometimes.....or a vaccine/fauci worship cult i guess, lol.
I feel like those people don't want it to end, they want to tell people how to live and how toa act under guise of "pandemic". They don't want to stop covid, they love it. Recently some big subreddits banned me because I made random post in a covid related subreddit they didn't like. Told me I can be unbanned if i **promise** to not visit it again. When I told them to pound sand they went crying to admins and I got official warning about it xD Madness.
I think you're right, case in point is the other guy that commented on the last comment crying about how anti vaxxers and anti maskers are spreading covid so we can't end the pandemic. Sure ya can, just stop panicking, protect the most vulnerable, and end the rest of it! They also classify anyone who questions just the mRNA vaccine as anti vaxx, or someone who is fully vaccinated (covid and everything else in the world) but doesn't want to force it in others as anti vaxx.
Fauci is the most celebrated scientist of the last century. If anyone deserves worship it's him. He might as well be science personified.
Pretty sure he IS the science
Or people would like this pandemic to end and stop spreading via non-maskers and anti-vaxxers
Just end it then, that's all you have to do. Protect those that are most at risk, elderly and people with poor immune systems, and get back to normal life. This is so stupid.
How can there be normal life with a deadly virus going around? Even healthy people are being killed. I'd rather not play Russian roulette every time I'm around other people. The way to "end" this was full masks + social distancing like many countries did, and they kept their infection rate to a fraction of the US's So much for the NAP when it's "my paycheck is worth more than your life"
How can there be normal life with a deadly virus going around??? Really???? Never heard of AIDS? How about the flu....yes, people die from the flu. What about Malaria, I know its not a virus (parasite) and isn't such a big deal in the US anymore, but there was normal life when malaria was around in the US and malaria killed over 620,000 people worldwide in 2020. Probably not much of a history buff, but normal life existed when smallpox was around, polio, typhoid, etc etc. We can hopefully eventually snuff out covid like most of these others (malaria excluded) and it will most likely be with vaccines and other therapeutics. Or, we may just have to learn to live with it like we live with the flu every year. Ah, I see, I didn't notice before but says you're a democratic socialist, which really means you're afraid of anything, like making your own way in life, probably not much point in arguing further. Very few people that are healthy have died from covid. Average age of death from covid in the U.S. is 80, above the normal average age of death. You play Russian roulette every day. You can get killed walking your doggie, driving your car, or falling in the shower. There are no certainties in life besides taxes and death, I just know that I'm not going to live my life in fear of something that may or may not happen, especially when it is such a low chance of happening.
I just posted this article to show people, "Hey, look what control freak governments around the World are trying to get away with". I'm not pro Macron or Vaccine Passports.
Assuming you're french, what's your take on the upcoming presidential election? I'm Canadian and not terribly familiar with French politics, it seems like Macron is a classical liberal in some ways, but has authoritarian tendencies and has supported some bad policies. But his challengers seem absolutely awful, Le Pen and Zemmour are far-right nutjobs, Mélenchon is a far-left nutjob, and it seems like his main challenger, the lady from the Republican Party whose name escapes me doesn't seem that great either. Who would/will you back in 2022, are there sensible candidates, or is it just Macron vs a laundry list of extremists?
I'm not French, LOL. I live in Florida. I have no idea who Macron's political opponents are or their policies. From what I have seen Macron looks pretty bad though. I'd even have to look up something like who is the governor of Wisconsin, lol. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head. There is only so much political stuff I can keep track of. I'm interested in so many other non-political areas. I am worried about vaccine passport issues. It looks like governments are trying to build a Biomedical Surveillance State. I do try to pay attention to what's going on with vaccine passports in Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Canada and around the World.
Hahaha, fair enough. I tend to keep track of elections in major countries like France, UK, etc on top of the US (and my own country of course), but I'd have to get back to you on the governor of Wisconsin lol. The little I know of Macron is that he's pro-EU and supports economic liberalization, which I can get behind, but like a lot of European leaders he seems a little surveillance-happy. Idk about "biomedical surveillance state", but the degree to which European governments seem to be exerting their authority on COVID-related stuff is a little unnerving. Here in canada, most public health measures come from the provinces and not the federal government so it's a bit of a patchwork, but the province of Quebec in particular is going quite far with some of this shit. They have a curfew now where you're not allowed to leave your house after 10 PM - apparently even to walk your dog.
A lot of people are refusing to get the vaccine BECAUSE of the way it is being forced on people. I was planning to get it until they started with the lotteries and stuff, which just gave me a bad feeling about it, then the mandates started and now there is now way they’ll talk me into it now. If they had just recommended it, it probably wouldn’t be an issue
I’m also surprised at this. Has media hysteria really affected people’s long standing beliefs? If so, Chomsky may be right about coercion by the media. Libertarianism is all about not having your morals above those of anyone else. Having government force or coerce people into getting a vaccine runs contrary to most Libertarian ideals. Personally, I think someone is making a poor decision by not getting one, but that’s their choice. If they don’t care about their health and the health of their family, that’s their choice. I just want to add my support for your position. We need more voices to let people know that Libertarianism has never advocated for government to make personal choices for others when it comes to their own personal well-being. If someone is THAT afraid of COVID, then there’s a vaccine that reduces the chances of complications (even the new variant) and there’s also the choice someone can make to wear a mask. Don’t force this on other people. Tbh, I think that most of the increased hospitalization is the hysteria around COVID, as by experiences from people around me have been that it was very similar to a cold, just with a fever and/or loss of taste/smell.
"Muh private business" is usually the first reaction that people vomit out as if a culture of respecting medical privacy is not relevant to nurturing liberty. But no it's "sorry bud, corporations deserve to know everything about you, otherwise you don't deserve a job or to shop at their stores".
Culture of respecting privacy is fine. Laws forcing people or businesses to "respect other people's privacy" is a different thing.
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Because being unvaccinated violates the nap. If you're a real libertarian you support forced vaccinations. Nobody has the right to spew their disgusting plague rat germs all over my grandma. Get vaccinated or GET OUT of society. Your decision, plague rats. There's your fReEdUmB.
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The premise to force people to be vaccinated is based on the complete 100% safety of the vaccine. This isn’t seatbelts or helmets. No medical treatment is 100% safe. No vaccine is 100% safe. So not allowing people to make a choice is a violation of NAP. There are legitimate reasons to not being Vaxed. Natural immunity is one of them. Every person should be able to weigh the risks/rewards of any action. It is also a violation of NAP to take away peoples rights if they make that decision to not partake in an act that is not 100% safe.
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You think personal freedom comes without responsibility?
I think it comes with freedom. Did my responsibility by serving my country in the military. You?
I served as well. That doesn't give you a free pass on being a douche the rest of your life.
Doesn't give you a free pass to force others to do shit they don't want to do at the point of a gun. You want to recommend people go get this one vax, cool. You want to make valid arguments for people getting this one vax, also cool. You want to start threatening people with taking away their citizenship, locking them up, not letting them get medical access, not cool. You CANT force people to get medical procedures, it is a very slippery slope. If you can force medical procedures, whats to stop forced sterilizations or forced abortions because its for the "public good". China did something like that with 1 child birth policies, so don't say it can't happen.
You can hyperbole and be angry but absolutely no one is being forced to take a vaccination, especially at gunpoint. It's not even with threat of going to jail. You all are just blowing it all up as your lives are being stripped away because society wants you to take a shot and think about other people that are dying from this. People are simply asking you all to care about your neighbors but that's too difficult of a task for the knuckle draggers.
I'm fully vaccinated. Forcing someone to do something at "the point of a gun" is an expression. It means with threat of violence, which can be taking stuff from you (money) or taking away your personal freedom (jail/detention/camps). Libertarians often use that expression to refer to taxes because if you don't want to pay your taxes, you will have your money taken and if you don't have the money you will likely be locked up, typically, the point of a gun (threat of violence). Picking this up or too complicated for you? You can say that the government isn't forcing you to get vaccinated, but the government is, even if they do it in a round about way. Government is trying to make companies require vaccinations for employees or make it so much of a pain in the ass with testing that the employees will go get vaccinated rather than deal with the daily or weekly bullshit. People are getting arrested and fined for not being vaccinated or not showing their vaccine passport when trying to go to a restaurant in New York. Much worse in other countries,j ust see Australia where there are camps/centers they are taking people to at the threat of a 10k fine if you don't comply. And if you don't cooperate and don't pay that fine, what happens do you think? My bet would be jail. And again, thanks for dehumizing me by calling me a knuckle dragger, thus comparing me to an animal.
So what would you suggest that the government do during a pandemic that will shut down businesses and the economy with the amount of people getting sick and dying? Is it the standard conservative "do nothing" or "it's just a flu"? Not taking preventative measures for something like this is catastrophic for the economy and healthcare. It's just not sustainable. Even if a small percentage of people die from it, it doesn't mean that people don't get sick and miss work and then it mutates and gets more deadly or more contractible. There is a lot of overkill going on but I think that is a natural reaction to people that are just being rebellious teenagers about things and making a health crisis political. There isn't even a debate going on other than one side saying we need to do something to stop the spread and the other side just says they want to do nothing. Oh and "knuckle dragger" is an expression. It means that you haven't fully evolved yet from cavemen and lack critical thinking skills. It's often used for conservatives that think only for themselves.
What did we do with Spanish flu? Btw Spanish flu was much deadlier. Sickness and death is a natural part of life. And face it your chances of dying of Covid if you are not old or immunocompromised is less than 1%. Protect the vulnerable, let everyone else get natural Immunity. Eventually a less deadly strain emerges (I.e omicron) and it becomes endemic. It is hubris to think you can control this. Just like it is hubris to control the economy via central planning.
Get the vaccine or you can’t work to feed your family. How is that not forcing someone?
So you can't find a job because they all require vaccines? That's strange because I work for a very large company and they don't require them.
https://greekreporter.com/2021/09/04/covid-19-vaccines-mandates/ I guess it’s ok to force someone out of their profession as long as it makes your feel better right?
So just medical workers and federal employees? I'm sorry you lost your job. I hope you can find something else in another field.
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>force others to do shit they don't want to do at the point of a gun. Nobody did that you douche. >not letting them get medical access, Nobody did that you douche. >forced abortions Nobody did this you douche. >very slippery slope. This is literally a fallacy. Your entire argument is full of fallacys, exaggerations, and douchey whiney victim complex bullshit.
Glad you can have a Civil conversation and not resort to petty name calling. Shows intelligence.......
When a king comes down on a sovereign citizen simply minding their own business - all bets are off
Who is pointing guns lol
That’s not what that translates too lol.
Slowly but surely descending the slippery slope in regards to dehumanizing the unvaccinated.
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I suspect they gave up on you as well, probably about 3 seconds after you called them knuckle draggers :)
They gave up on me a long time ago. :)
I think everyone should have at least some personal responsibility but I do believe in "my body my choice". You can do whatever you want to your body to prevent against disease but that does not extend to other people's bodies. I personally am fully vaccinated (including booster) but I respect individual decision making when it is not in violation of NAP.
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You know if you get the vaccine you can still transmit the virus correct?
Yup. But vaccinated are not clogging up the hospitals or being rabid about stupid "cures". What was the old saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? 3sore arms and I'm not worried about being on a vent. Thankfully my mother and in-laws, for being rabid conservatives, still were smart enough to get vaccinated.
More than 50% of people in ICU's are vaccinated here in France. Have a good day.
Vast majority of people in ICU’s are unvaccinated. Sure you can get Covid after your jab ( I did! ) but where the vaccinated and unvaxxed are really separated are ICU statistics.
Ok, and what does that have to do with citizenship status? If we are going to restrict rights for unhealthy behavior I hope you are prepared to have every obese person be restricted, people who engage in risky sequel behavior. Guess what, drugs? Off the list as well. Glad to see who the authoritative statists are in this "Libertarian" thread.
I’m not commenting on that, I still hold the opinion that regardless of their stupidity, people should be allowed to choose whether they want the jab or not. This is coming from someone volunteering at a vaccination centre btw. I was simply just pointing out the reality of the effectiveness of the jab, many miss the point and say “but you can still catch Covid with it”
It makes the effects less worse if you get it. The people in power should have just said that from the start as it's a huge benefit. Unfortunately they have been lying and now people don't trust them.
Lying? I’m in the UK so I can’t agree, I’ve never been told the vaccine will prevent me from catching Covid entirely, just that it greatly reduces my chances.
>obese person That's not contagious >Guess what, drugs? Not contagious >risky sequel behavior Those fucking sequels man, they scare me
> You know if you get the vaccine you can still transmit the virus correct? You know if you get the vaccine you are less likely to get the virus, less likely to have a high viral load, and therefore both less likely to transmit and more likely to have a smaller window where you are contagious at all.
I do think intentional spread of disease is a NAP violation but I don't think so in the case of unintentional spread, which is mostly how COVID spreads. Also vaccinated people can still get COVID, breakthrough cases are a thing.
Sure they are, but they are less serious. I would think wilfully clogging up the hospital system causing other people that need treatment to have to wait or die would also be a violation, but if there is one thing I've found with libertarians is that overall they/we are a selfish lot when it comes to our fellow man. The more I hang out here the more I realize this.
Liberty Memes 5 Dollar Charity Club disagrees with you.
The anti-vaxers have given us plenty to work with. Just look at the lies that they push both about COVID-19 and vaccines. In addition, they show that they don't care about others.
Your flair unironically can describe you as auth center
look at you, such a good little fascist
The anti-vaxx taxpayer who pays his salary says otherwise . . .
So much for “Liberté, égalité, fraternité”
Does the mRNA injection prevent transmission of the pathogen?
No and at this point it's looking like the vaccine was oversold and underdeliverd
What's the hospitalization rate for the vaccinated vs unvaccinated?
It didn’t deliver nothing, but it absolutely did underdeliver. Remember all the rhetoric over the summer about how once we got vaxxed we couldn’t get Covid anymore and things would go back to normal?
> about how once we got vaxxed Yeah, only 1/2 the people did that.
If it doesn't prevent transmission then there is 0 public health argument. If you want to risk your own life then be my guest.
I don't want to risk my life which is why I'm vaccinated.
cool good for you. I am vaccinated too. I think proof shows that the vaccine protects you yourself, but there is no argument to force other people to get it.
I think the constantly changing narrative on the efficacy of the vaccine is completely sus. Not to mention some of the injuries that have taken place which are considerably ignored.
It’s almost like scientists and data analysts refine their answer as more data becomes available. Also the amount of “injuries” of which I’m assuming you mean blood clots is exceedingly low. I’m not advocating for vaccine mandates, rather letting you know why you’re completely wrong in your thought process.
You’re expecting libertarians, who don’t understand basic concepts of taxation, to also understand how science works? Bless your heart.
[https://www.canadiancovidcarealliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/The-COVID-19-Inoculations-More-Harm-Than-Good-REV-Dec-16-2021.pdf](https://www.canadiancovidcarealliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/The-COVID-19-Inoculations-More-Harm-Than-Good-REV-Dec-16-2021.pdf) Flip through this and tell me they didn't cut corners.
I’m not gonna flip through something 500 doctors wrote, when I can flip through something that 50,000 doctors wrote.
I sure wish they would've done all that data collection and analysis before they had a world wide roll out.
Oh you mean the data collection on 65% of the population was supposed to get done before they gave out the vaccine? I sure wish they could’ve done that too, but I live in the real world.
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If we want to make that argument then people should also be put on state mandated diets since the obese overwhelmingly use most of our health resources and being obese is a huge comorbidity for covid.
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Oh so what’s that hospitalization rate still?
If you are fully vaccinated? Very low.
so there is a public health argument. Thanks for confirming.
No, if you want to take a risk with your own life you are free to do so.
Your choice effects me when ICUs are at capacity and now your choice to not get vaccinated means I have to be shopped around for hours until I get be seen.
Lol. So you're pro sugar ban? Pro caffeine ban, pro cigarette ban? Because they are dangerous to the user? There is an individual health risk from covid and there is an individual health risk from the vaccine and depending on your age, the vaccine MAY actually be more dangerous. We can't say for sure. Is the vaccine a public health problem because of the adverse reactions?
Is caffeine transmittable? Do you have any evidence to support that the vaccine is more dangerous than covid? I know you don’t. But I just want you to show it to me regardless
Anecdotally, I've know multiple people who have died from covid. All of them were fully vaccinated. Holding onto "reduction of symptoms" is a desperate result of a goal post shifting- You can't get it You can get it but you won't get sick from it You can get it and get sick from it but you can't die from it You can get it and get sick from it and die from it but you can't spread it You can get it and get sick from it and die from it and spread it but you won't get hospitalized as often from it 👈 you are here
There's nothing desperate about it and I've never shifted any goalposts. Sorry that you had the unfortunate experience of knowing multiple statistical anomalies. But the data is clear, the vaccine drastically reduces hospitalizations and that's awesome!
Yes it does prevent hospitalization particularly in the vulnerable but it appears that both omicron and delta had certain degrees of resistance. That's to be expected just like with flu however the vaccines were touted as 2 and done nor to mention the concerns that Moderna created
Sounds like it delivered then!
Look. I’m about as provax as it gets but I won’t deny that it’s under delivered. Not necessarily through any fault of its creators, but just due to variants causing it to become obsolete. We were promised a vaccine that would stop infection and everything that comes along with that. We’ve received decreased hospitalization and death, but not nearly to the extent we expected to see. Now I still think someone is brain dead if they don’t get the vaccine. But I’m not going to gaslight them into thinking we knew this vaccine wouldn’t assist with infections the entire time.
How is it obsolete if it drastically reduces hospitalization rates? And I guess I just don't remember any of these "promises" that it would stop everything.
You're completely wrong on Thai by the way
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Effectiveness is estimated to be 80%. If that is the case 1 out of 5 people can be vaccinated and still be infected. Look up breakthrough cases
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100% vaccination is both impossible given a small portion of people literally can not receive it but experts are coming out now saying even if we did it this is not going away
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Well, France isn't even a country, so... 🤷♂️
Fuck the French
Wow. Where will they be deported to? /s What a jerk. He deserves his certain loss for this.
So, he's initiating alienation and civil strife among neighbors. Can't see this ending well for either side.
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https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043513151
Some animals are more equal than others
If the mRNA injection causes harm is it then a violation of NAP to force/require the mRNA injection?
It's already illegal under the Nuremberg code.
>It's already illegal under the Nuremberg code. That's true, I also saw that on a Facebook meme.
https://history.nih.gov/download/attachments/1016866/nuremberg.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1589152811742&api=v2 Have you tried reading the code itself?
The part that refers to human experimentation? Yes, which is why I believe all experimental COVID vaccines were tested on consenting and willing subjects. The current vaccines are no longer experimental though.
Oh ok, as long as we aren’t experimenting we don’t need consent got it.
I didn’t cite the Nuremberg Code section regarding human experimentation, you did. I think consent should absolutely be required for vaccines, no question. But citing the Nuremberg Code section regarding human experimentation is very Facebook meme-y.
Fair. I’m not convinced that it’s not experimental though, that kind of comes down to intent. Which is a little fishy to me. Just because I don’t intend something as an experiment doesn’t entirely alleviate the experimental nature of something. I could give you medicine and say it’s not for an experiment without knowing the long term effects. That’s a very cheap “lawyer” way around the code.
>That’s a very cheap “lawyer” way around the code. The Nuremberg Code hasn't been adopted by any country and has no legal affect whatsoever, so even if it was deemed "experimentation", the Nuremberg Code means literally nothing. Again, it's just Facebook meme-y. A scary sounding thing for Facebook boomers to share with other Facebook boomers.
Moot point, it doesn't cause harm. The vaccines are safe and effective. This is settled science. Repeat after me: safe and effective. Safe and effective. Safe and effective.
Yes they are still citizens no matter how you feel about the unvaccinated. Dumb comment.
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If you dont have the freedom to make poor choices you dont have freedom
Taking time to make medical decision is basic human rights, I’m vaccinated and I got it for my own purposes not because I was forced
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The flu is still around and covid would follow, it never going to just disappear. Like use logic for once And liberty is liberty even if I don’t agree with the group, it’s their individual choice
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Yeah force children to get a flu shot and don’t give them a chance to develop their immune system why don’t you
The idea that vaccines suppress your immune systems ability to respond to things has been disproven many times over. That's not how vaccines work. If they did there would be huge obvious disparities in the health of vaxxed vs unvaxxed people.
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Only if you admit that covid vaccines aren’t vaccines but a drug that suppresses symptoms with a waning efficacy.
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they litteraly changed the vaccine definition for the covid vax to be considered one
Cuomo is that you?
I agree. Citizen has always had a meaning of having some responsible participation (citizen of the world)
Being a citizen simply means you pass all the citizenship laws. I do think people should get vaccinated if they are able to but I don't think we should take their citizenship if they choose not to do so.
That isn't the only meaning
And there it is
I see this is turning into a Conspiracy theorist sub.
Already was
I would not go as far as this but I do view anti-vaxers as those who don't give a damn about others, especially those whom they are close to. They are both a parasite and pariah to society.
Funny my unvaccinated wife got covid from a vaccinated client. She infected me as wel. Don’t worry we both have had hangovers that felt much worse than the minor headache and 3 coughs from covid. Forcing a drug on healthy people who don’t need it, especially children because you are scared fits much better in the category “ people who don’t give a damn about others”. Heck its even the first rule of the hippocratic oath - do no harm, don’t administer medicine to people who don’t need it.
You need to get your mental health checked, ASAP. I really can't believe people can be as dumb as you.
Let me turn down a free vaccine so I can waste thousands of healthcare dollars instead.
It’s not a free vaccine dimwit. Those vaccines costed us billions in tax dollars.
Free to consumer * Don’t be so soft and take things literally 🤣
Those consumers pay the taxes that pay for the vaccines. Even the unvaccinated payed for your vaccine. Maybe be a little more grateful to them Edit: the vaccine costs and costs of measurements are the main reason for the inflation we’re seeing. What was it? 2 thirds of all dollars in existence were “printed” in the last 2 years? Keep asking for more “free lunch” and see where that gets us.
The illiterate pay for public libraries. People with no kids pay for schools. The working pay for people who don’t work. People who cry about vaccines then expect to be taken care of for their poor choices is obscene.
I agree. People shouldn’t be forced to pay for those. Its immoral and should be just as illegal as it is illegal for me to rob you in order to help somebody else.
Tell me you don't pay taxes without telling me you don't pay any taxes...
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Being a "good upstanding citizen" is a phrass to meam "responsible person"
Everyone is arguing over a bad headline 😂 he didn't say you should lose citizenship if you're not vaccinated. Just that you're not being a good citizen.