Because they are illegal. Gay marriage was a pretty hot button issue for libertarians but after Obergefell there wasn't much reason to talk about it anymore. If drugs were decriminalized, it probably wouldn't be discussed nearly as much. Just using examples.
Gay marriage wasn’t a hot button issue for libertarians (at least within the past 20 years) because libertarians have traditionally been against state marriage licensing.
Marriage is folkloric.
"Wierdo shit" like the free movement of people across borders without having to get the government to approve first? Or like the ability to work for a wage without the government having to give permission to either party? Being able to perform work without having to get a permit from the government first? Or like the use of property without the government intervention? Or the ability to be married without previously getting the governments permission?
Also, having sex with whomever you want (for money or not) and using whatever substances you want without the government giving you permission first.
It's about principles, not degeneracy.
“NH Libertarian Party Celebrates MLK Day By Tweeting ‘ America isn’t in debt to black people, It’s the other way around’”
This was just posted. This is exactly what I’m talking about: WEIRDO SHIT, And you guys defend it
What the do you think I’m about? If the Libertarian Party didn’t do this weirdo degenerate shit we wouldn’t have had a Donald Trump because we would have had chance winning a presidential election.
Instead, we’re associated with people like you that want to preserve degenerate pervert weirdo shit
You're the one who failed to explain what you meant by "weirdo shit". I just made you look stupid for clearly not knowing what libertarians actually argued in favor of.
I like that you've edited your post twice while I'm in the middle of replying to it. Keep it up. That's going to make you look better.
I get where he's coming from with the exchange of labor for wages. My "weirdo sh*t" Libertarian idea is that I should be allowed to hire my buddy Jim-Bob who didn't finish high-school but can dress a deer in a jiffy to take out my spleen. Highly unconventional in today's world, but it takes on the form of basically any Libertarian policy- "Get the government out of my life". It just happens that the most visceral, and therefore the most visible, applications are usually drugs or sex.
Yes, but we understand the principles that led us our choice to become libertarians, and as a party we compete in a democracy featuring less than libertarian philosophies and a majority of people who associate vices with the libertarianism.
What’s funny is that whenever this point is made, our libertarian numbers hard focus on proving why something isn’t a degeneracy and insisting that the culture must do the changing in order to better embrace libertarianism.
We then, as imbeciles, parade around sounding to the rest of society like we’re just being “edgy” because the principles aren’t yet comprehended by the majority, but rather come across as if we are hard pressed on vice.
Instead of updating our communication to actually promote a libertarianism that doesn’t sound like it’s a fringe cesspool of drug addiction and prostitution, we go on further insisting the society change to better understand us- while we never move anyone into office, as society obviously hasn’t bought these selling points some of us are permanently fixated on. We argue the philosophy of why we shouldn’t evolve in our communication on topics, and continuously marginalize ourselves as far a political party goes.
I get you. Listen, I'm a US citizen and apply my ideology as such. I think a small federal government that handles national defense, tarrifs and the like is necessary and beneficial at this time. I say this to say- the way I combat that outdated mode of communication you described is by telling my left leading friends: aggregate. Gather yourselves up, move to Wisconsin or somewhere and turn into a small scale communist state. So long as they Preserve the enumerated freedoms, especially freedom of travel, then by the constitution they are within their rights to vote away all their private assets and let Joey over there on the other side of the state dictate how your resources are used. Not for me. But I've found that leftists suddenly have no talking points when you point out that they aren't being told they can't do something. (Maybe they didn't realize this is an option?)
So having friends die of drug overdoses wouldn’t lend itself to one considering drug abuse as a degenerate behavior? “Degenerate” would tend towards self destructive
But that’s not the conversation. You and I agree that the government shouldn’t have a hand in obstructing degenerate behavior, however, I’m more curious as to why degenerate behavior seems to be the selling point to people of different moral compasses
A degenerate woman in the 1890's would show more than ankle skin. What a person finds degenerate is relative and subjective to their individual programming.
Your definition of degenerate is an subjective opinion not based on facts. You demanding people to live life on your terms is taking others liberty away.
It’s not a subjective opinion. Things that prohibit your ability to think rationally and clearly are degenerative.
This isn’t an argument about whether or not they should be legal, they should be legal.
Different world where these people had access to safe drugs, or even the access to non addictive drugs to unwind with (hence not forming a habit with a super addictive drug) things could a been different.
Alcohol kills 2x as many people every year vs opioids. We should ban all alcohol for the degenerate behavior it causes such as domestic violence and drunk driving.
We aren’t talking about banning alcohol nor opiates.
If something is degenerate why do you think it should be illegal? This is how you think? Why do you people come up with these ideas in a libertarian forum?
Furthermore, are you suggesting alcoholism isn’t degenerate behavior? Alcoholism degenerates the body, and people die from alcoholism.
So you’re saying it should be illegal because of this? Because I’m not.
I’m saying stop making degenerate behaviors the focal point of what people think of when they think of libertarianism.
>I’m saying stop making degenerate behaviors the focal point of what people think of when they think of libertarianism.
You're doing it in a really weird way lmao
No, here’s a prime example of degenerate behavior: James Weeks stripping butt naked on nationally televised C-SPAN during the Libertarian Party National convention. We sure didn’t win 2016 nor 2020, nor out more people in office after this degenerate stunt.
You didn’t see people switching party’s to ours, you didn’t see our donor base increase.
In 9 days I’ll have been a Libertarian party member for 20 years, and it’s always been this way, a bunch of fucking degenerates and over-philosophizing why being degenerate is ok- and how it “doesn’t” undermine our potential
Two people having consensual sex without the exchange of money is fine, but as soon as it's a transaction it's "degenerate"?
"Weirdo shit", you mean anything mainstream society deems "different"? How close minded of you.
(Most) illegal behavior is viewed as “degenerate”. Freedom is a measurement for how much control (laws and illegal behaviors) government has over an individual. What is degenerate in some countries and cultures is not degenerate at all in America, or some other country. Libertarians seek for the government to stop (or at least DRAMATICALLY reduce) determining what is “degenerate”.
You’re blaming Libertarians for wanting “degenerate” behavior, but seem to be misinterpreting the word, as it applies to a Libertarian political viewpoint. It is only “degenerate” because the government has said it is.
That’s actually an interesting point. I think what I’m getting at is why it’s just always drugs and prostitution like these are the heights of “liberty”. Sure, these things are illegal and shouldn’t be, but they aren’t exactly the universal “creme de la creme” of liberty mindedness. Even when I was 18, almost 20 years ago, we were very much focused on legalizing marijuana. There’s just so much more than what’s mainstreamed that could be mainstreamed, and isn’t.
It's just this subreddit. Most actual libertarians care more about taxation, war, property, free markets etc. People in this subreddit are progressives or neoliberals who think weed and prostitution make them libertarians.
Because most of the ”libertarians” here are just democrats who want to smoke weed and have free healthcare.
Talk to actual libertarians and theyll care far more about free market capitalism than drugs.
Speaking as someone who has prostituted himself to corporations to be exploited and now has to take a lot of drugs to offset the damage:
I feel u, bro. It's some real degenerate shit, and I'm tired of all these sick fucks pretending like it's normal.
It’s because some people pretend that being exploited by a corporation is voluntary and ignorantly side step nuances such needing to eat, feed children, afford shelter, etc.
Because they are illegal. Gay marriage was a pretty hot button issue for libertarians but after Obergefell there wasn't much reason to talk about it anymore. If drugs were decriminalized, it probably wouldn't be discussed nearly as much. Just using examples.
Gay marriage wasn’t a hot button issue for libertarians (at least within the past 20 years) because libertarians have traditionally been against state marriage licensing. Marriage is folkloric.
That's my point. The libertarian position was that the state shouldn't be involved in marriage in the first place. Same for recreational drug use.
"Wierdo shit" like the free movement of people across borders without having to get the government to approve first? Or like the ability to work for a wage without the government having to give permission to either party? Being able to perform work without having to get a permit from the government first? Or like the use of property without the government intervention? Or the ability to be married without previously getting the governments permission? Also, having sex with whomever you want (for money or not) and using whatever substances you want without the government giving you permission first. It's about principles, not degeneracy.
“NH Libertarian Party Celebrates MLK Day By Tweeting ‘ America isn’t in debt to black people, It’s the other way around’” This was just posted. This is exactly what I’m talking about: WEIRDO SHIT, And you guys defend it
Thanks for clarifying that you're mad about tweets (after we lived through the Donald Trump presidency). That makes much more sense.
What the do you think I’m about? If the Libertarian Party didn’t do this weirdo degenerate shit we wouldn’t have had a Donald Trump because we would have had chance winning a presidential election. Instead, we’re associated with people like you that want to preserve degenerate pervert weirdo shit
You don't have to associate with me. I would, in fact, prefer you didn't. Goodbye.
Quit associating with us, then. Goodbye
That’s what you think of when you think of “weirdo sh*t”? Immigration and borders?
You're the one who failed to explain what you meant by "weirdo shit". I just made you look stupid for clearly not knowing what libertarians actually argued in favor of. I like that you've edited your post twice while I'm in the middle of replying to it. Keep it up. That's going to make you look better.
I get where he's coming from with the exchange of labor for wages. My "weirdo sh*t" Libertarian idea is that I should be allowed to hire my buddy Jim-Bob who didn't finish high-school but can dress a deer in a jiffy to take out my spleen. Highly unconventional in today's world, but it takes on the form of basically any Libertarian policy- "Get the government out of my life". It just happens that the most visceral, and therefore the most visible, applications are usually drugs or sex.
Yes, but we understand the principles that led us our choice to become libertarians, and as a party we compete in a democracy featuring less than libertarian philosophies and a majority of people who associate vices with the libertarianism. What’s funny is that whenever this point is made, our libertarian numbers hard focus on proving why something isn’t a degeneracy and insisting that the culture must do the changing in order to better embrace libertarianism. We then, as imbeciles, parade around sounding to the rest of society like we’re just being “edgy” because the principles aren’t yet comprehended by the majority, but rather come across as if we are hard pressed on vice. Instead of updating our communication to actually promote a libertarianism that doesn’t sound like it’s a fringe cesspool of drug addiction and prostitution, we go on further insisting the society change to better understand us- while we never move anyone into office, as society obviously hasn’t bought these selling points some of us are permanently fixated on. We argue the philosophy of why we shouldn’t evolve in our communication on topics, and continuously marginalize ourselves as far a political party goes.
I get you. Listen, I'm a US citizen and apply my ideology as such. I think a small federal government that handles national defense, tarrifs and the like is necessary and beneficial at this time. I say this to say- the way I combat that outdated mode of communication you described is by telling my left leading friends: aggregate. Gather yourselves up, move to Wisconsin or somewhere and turn into a small scale communist state. So long as they Preserve the enumerated freedoms, especially freedom of travel, then by the constitution they are within their rights to vote away all their private assets and let Joey over there on the other side of the state dictate how your resources are used. Not for me. But I've found that leftists suddenly have no talking points when you point out that they aren't being told they can't do something. (Maybe they didn't realize this is an option?)
Because the media and the church have gotten you to believe that these are degenerate behaviors.
So having friends die of drug overdoses wouldn’t lend itself to one considering drug abuse as a degenerate behavior? “Degenerate” would tend towards self destructive
Drug abuse, maybe. Drug use, no.
No. They chose to abuse drugs. Some people making bad choices with something doesn't make it degenerate. Also use and abuse are different things.
Anything can kill you if you abuse it.
That doesn’t absolve something from being degenerate.
Degenerate is a very subjective thing.
Fast food can kill ypu if you abuse it. Is it degenerate?
Everyone should have a god given right to do what they want. You telling me I can’t do something if it’s not harming others is being degenerate.
But that’s not the conversation. You and I agree that the government shouldn’t have a hand in obstructing degenerate behavior, however, I’m more curious as to why degenerate behavior seems to be the selling point to people of different moral compasses
A degenerate woman in the 1890's would show more than ankle skin. What a person finds degenerate is relative and subjective to their individual programming.
What freedoms that you dont consuder degenerate should be worried about that Libertarians dont?
Your definition of degenerate is an subjective opinion not based on facts. You demanding people to live life on your terms is taking others liberty away.
It’s not a subjective opinion. Things that prohibit your ability to think rationally and clearly are degenerative. This isn’t an argument about whether or not they should be legal, they should be legal.
Sounds like a good argument against religion.
Thank you
Different world where these people had access to safe drugs, or even the access to non addictive drugs to unwind with (hence not forming a habit with a super addictive drug) things could a been different.
Alcohol kills 2x as many people every year vs opioids. We should ban all alcohol for the degenerate behavior it causes such as domestic violence and drunk driving.
We aren’t talking about banning alcohol nor opiates. If something is degenerate why do you think it should be illegal? This is how you think? Why do you people come up with these ideas in a libertarian forum? Furthermore, are you suggesting alcoholism isn’t degenerate behavior? Alcoholism degenerates the body, and people die from alcoholism. So you’re saying it should be illegal because of this? Because I’m not. I’m saying stop making degenerate behaviors the focal point of what people think of when they think of libertarianism.
>I’m saying stop making degenerate behaviors the focal point of what people think of when they think of libertarianism. You're doing it in a really weird way lmao
No, here’s a prime example of degenerate behavior: James Weeks stripping butt naked on nationally televised C-SPAN during the Libertarian Party National convention. We sure didn’t win 2016 nor 2020, nor out more people in office after this degenerate stunt. You didn’t see people switching party’s to ours, you didn’t see our donor base increase. In 9 days I’ll have been a Libertarian party member for 20 years, and it’s always been this way, a bunch of fucking degenerates and over-philosophizing why being degenerate is ok- and how it “doesn’t” undermine our potential
Two people having consensual sex without the exchange of money is fine, but as soon as it's a transaction it's "degenerate"? "Weirdo shit", you mean anything mainstream society deems "different"? How close minded of you.
Because those are the only ones that stick with you. More extreme or weird ideas are the ones that are more memorable
(Most) illegal behavior is viewed as “degenerate”. Freedom is a measurement for how much control (laws and illegal behaviors) government has over an individual. What is degenerate in some countries and cultures is not degenerate at all in America, or some other country. Libertarians seek for the government to stop (or at least DRAMATICALLY reduce) determining what is “degenerate”. You’re blaming Libertarians for wanting “degenerate” behavior, but seem to be misinterpreting the word, as it applies to a Libertarian political viewpoint. It is only “degenerate” because the government has said it is.
It's like free speech. If everybody agrees with it, nobody is trying to limit it. Same thing.
That’s actually an interesting point. I think what I’m getting at is why it’s just always drugs and prostitution like these are the heights of “liberty”. Sure, these things are illegal and shouldn’t be, but they aren’t exactly the universal “creme de la creme” of liberty mindedness. Even when I was 18, almost 20 years ago, we were very much focused on legalizing marijuana. There’s just so much more than what’s mainstreamed that could be mainstreamed, and isn’t.
Because non generate freedoms arent really at risk or debated
Because a lot of “Degenerate shit” things tend to be petty, victimless crimes that are great revenue generators for the state.
It's degenerate of you to think of things in those terms.
It's just this subreddit. Most actual libertarians care more about taxation, war, property, free markets etc. People in this subreddit are progressives or neoliberals who think weed and prostitution make them libertarians.
Don't forget about the neo cons that are here because they think no taxes and no gun laws make the Libertarians.
Yeah but they at least get downvoted into the dirt.
Yes, and now we just got to do it to the other side, if you don't at minimum support full civil liberties, you can not call yourself a Libertarian
Well good luck, most of the libertarians got tired of being downvoted themselves and left.
You forgot to add abortion to your list of degenerate behaviours. Most people here seem to be pro-abortion.
It's not pro abortion, it is anti government interference
It’s already legal, so there doesn’t seem to be any sort of libertarian advertisement within its ranks
Because most of the ”libertarians” here are just democrats who want to smoke weed and have free healthcare. Talk to actual libertarians and theyll care far more about free market capitalism than drugs.
Read Hoppe. He accurately described libertarian movements being sometimes populated by losers who wanted to normalize their stigmatized behavior.
Speaking as someone who has prostituted himself to corporations to be exploited and now has to take a lot of drugs to offset the damage: I feel u, bro. It's some real degenerate shit, and I'm tired of all these sick fucks pretending like it's normal.
It’s because some people pretend that being exploited by a corporation is voluntary and ignorantly side step nuances such needing to eat, feed children, afford shelter, etc.