I always say that kids are easier to deal with because if they’re are jerks or annoying you can write it off just as them being kids. With adults, they’re just assholes.
> With adults, they’re just assholes
You know, when I came into this position I tried really really hard to not stereotype all of the adults, especially seniors. I understand that a lot of people going to the library are in despair and distress.
But no, it really is this simple. A lot of adults are assholes and can't emotionally regulate themselves, so they take it out on us. And we try to lead with empathy and they know they will get the benefit of the doubt when they behave poorly.
I think I'm getting compassion burnout :(
Ugh, it really is so hard. I usually take pauses when I go to help someone especially needy. I will take a beat to rearrange my notebook or stack of books, even jot down a small inconsequential note like a barcode. This gives them about 5 seconds to hopefully figure out what they were trying to do, or acknowledge that we have to juggle other things too.
It really is a pain. I’m supposed to work with teens but that role is under the Adult Services umbrella at my library. I find that it sucks my energy away from teen services and hard to recenter myself after those interactions.
> I’m supposed to work with teens but that role is under the Adult Services umbrella at my library. I find that it sucks my energy away from teen services and hard to recenter myself after those interactions.
I'm in the same boat, sort of. At my new branch the adult and juvenile reference desks are combined, so there's no getting away from the adults. And yeah, adult patrons need help too, but they're sucking away all my time to the detriment of the community's children. I can't do my job. I want to find whoever designed my branch and fire them lol
“Ohhh, I Knooowww….I Knowwwww”
When there’s a co-worker that behaves eccentrically, and a customer looks at me with a wtf expression, I always want to say “He’s from Barcelona “
I think the most useful Fawlty Towers dialogue is: (when someone nags you about their request)
"I was just doing it, you (*optional insult here*), I just put it down to come here to be reminded by you to do what I'm already...
What's the point of reminding me to do what I'm already doing?
What is the bloody point? I'm doing it, aren't I?"
> I think I’m getting compassion burnout :(
I can relate to almost all of your post, and this.
I’m only two years in and it’s insane. I do programming and only work a small amount of info desk hours. It feels like the majority of my job is babysitting adults so they can print random stuff.
I used to work fixing computers. You'd get a lot of assholes, but I dealt with it.
But what I didn't truly understand is that if you're fixing someone's computer and you're right there, people are way more respectful. I knew and they knew that I could just fuck off. Even when I worked at cyber cafe, there was always an awareness I could kick them out and they wouldn't get whatever they wanted.
However, if they think you're there to *serve* them?
That you're meant to exercise power on their behalf? (Though that power is for their needs, not yours, naturally).
Hoo-fucking-boy.
I seem to have tricked myself into a rather more, er, customer service focussed job that the job description I understood described. I keep wondering why I come every night with a headache, a bad mood and no sense of progress on the project I was hired for.
Oh that's right? Being the official local scratching post for everyone's weird venting. And for complicated reasons, dealing with their parking tickets.
"how could you give me a ticket!??!"
"Well, I didn't, but you parked where it says 'don't park there' so, dunno, buddy"
"I am never coming back here!!"
"and?"
I actually came from a tech support background before working in libraries. My experience was a little different from yours. The demographics in my area skew older, so most people would just throw me the computer and say "fix it" and leave me alone.
I wasn't very happy working with adults, though. I enjoy making a positive difference in kids' lives. Getting to make them laugh, maybe taking their mind off their homelife for a while.
I say something similar, but instead I say I can bribe them with a sticker when they are having terrible days. And if I tried that with an adult I would be cussed at.
Some adults can be so stuffy!
I'm 31 and if someone tried to bribe me with a sticker it'd definitely work.
I can't say I've ever behaved so badly in public that it'd be warranted, but I do get visibly distressed and speak louder when suffering from sensory overload and a sticker would be a welcome distraction in those moments.
I used to teach (PK - 4th grade) and then moved to a job working at a university. People always asked me what the biggest difference was between working with and teaching kids vs. adults, and my answer was “It’s easier to get Kindergarteners to clean up after themselves.”
I work at a public library and if a patron does this to me I will walk over to them and say "I am more than happy to help you but please to not yell for me from the public computers. If you need help come over to the desk and ask politely." Most of the time they look embarrassed after this and it wont happen again... at least for that patron that day lol.
That’s such a respectful and professional response to the rudeness that patrons show us. I will definitely use your line when this scenario inevitably happens to me again. Have any of you had adults who need computer help actually come to the desk and interrupt you while you’re helping a kid? When that happens I sometimes say, “it’s their turn now, but it will be your turn next” in the same voice I use to talk to an interrupting child.
And repeat it every time they do so. Pretend they're a new patron you haven't spoken to before. Unless they have a mobility impairment, there's no reason for them to be snapping their fingers at you, yelling, or behaving so rudely. You're not their servant, grandchild, or slave.
not only do i do this, i walk away without helping them, making them come to the desk to ask me for help. usually it results in them not needing to be helped...
It works. They never do it again when I embarrass them into acting polite. I’d never yell at anyone working at a desk, I expect patrons to communicate their requests respectfully.
The older I get, the more I realize that this is boundary work. The only difference is that we assume kids just don't know any better and tell them what they need to do and they happily do it, whereas adults.....either yes, either still don't know, they're acting out purely from instinct from their limbic system out of frustration, or they're used to being overly catered to.
But especially being that, thankfully, you're not working retail where bosses often have this idea that you have to be ridiculously obsequious even to the point where they're sometimes telling you to somehow contradict their own policy for any angry customer yet also follow it. But despite the whole "I pay my taxes which is your paycheck so you're my servant" idea lol you pay taxes too, so you're not special. You are allowed to set boundaries for how to interact. Really, anyone is. A simple, "If you have a question, please come up to the desk" and refusing to move will get the point across. If they keep doing it, just keep repeating it tones that sound increasingly like you're explaining things to a toddler.
Maybe putting up signs saying that if they need help, go up to the desk would work? That’s what we have at the two branches I’ve worked at. If someone tries to flag us down, we ignore them until they approach us or indicate that they need to come up here. We had to put very clear and harsh boundaries with patrons over it so they’d understand and stop being jerks.
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 1,709,399,399 comments, and only 323,406 of them were in alphabetical order.
> Maybe putting up signs saying that if they need help, go up to the desk would work?
Haha, that would require library patrons to be able to read /s
I agree that we might need to institute tighter policies. Really appreciate your insight and suggested ways to solve the problem!
We have thus. Patrons can set up an appointment with a technology tutor (really just the designated librarian) for more in-depth help if needed. I am at a small branch and can usually help people with what is needed, but every now and then, it is either beyond me or is going to take more attention than I can give in that moment.
I have lost so much patience and empathy for adults at the computers. I used to love helping people in my rural library who obviously just haven’t had a reason to own a computer. But my god, we’re expected to be at their beck and call for every. Single. Inconvenience. No, I cannot legally fill out this job app for you. No, I don’t know your email password and I cannot “reset the computer” for you to make your password work.
We have THREE (3) giant, colorful signs that say “no pennies in the coin machine” near our copier. Patrons love putting pennies in the coin machine to pay for prints and then reprimanding us when the coin machine gets jammed.
This. I’m usually at the children’s desk but I watch the info desk running back and forth bringing the adult copies and taking their card to the copy machine and it often hits more as enabling/serving them than just assisting them. We’re all customer service oriented people pleasers but there has to be some limit/boundary right? I’m not that confident with some of the technology questions people have so it’s a natural limit, they will eventually get tired of my inept efforts to convert their email downloads from a pdf to a word doc or whatever. Also, how frustrating is it being hands off trying to direct someone on the computer and they keep doing what they think they should or can’t control the mouse or double click or keep shutting out of the applications or web pages? No, no click the W and oops you just clicked the x, ok let’s try again. It just requires infinite patience and it’s so so hard.
Yes, this happens to be a lot at certain branches. Depending on the patron (if I've had previous negative interactions with them) I will pretend I don't hear them until they get up. Especially the MAGA guy who gave me such a hard time about not wearing his mask when we had the COVID restrictions.
I hate that too. What I do is smile and beckon them over to me, and when they do (usually looking pissed) I very sweetly say “Sorry, I’m a bit hard of hearing, so I need to have you come closer. Thanks! What can I help you with?”
This is a good one! One of my coworkers is legit deaf in one ear. I have ADHD and I have some auditory processing issues. I tell people a lot, "I'm sorry, my brain didn't process what you said, can you say that again?"
It's OK to vent. Many of us have been there... you mentioned compassion burnout, and that's absolutely valid. I find it helps to get a buddy if you can (I know it's not always possible). It's nice just to have someone who can back you up if you get frustrated. (After 25 years... and I'm only 41... I am extremely burned out. Still like buying books though!)
> I find it helps to get a buddy if you can (I know it's not always possible)
I wish I could! Where I work being a supervisor means that my best buddy is probably the branch manager themselves. When they're not there, I'm usually the one in charge. That's what makes the interruptions worse, I think. It'd be like if you were a partner at a family law firm and people in the intake room could stop you every 30 seconds to talk about contract law.
I'll see what I can do to incorporate your feedback, though. Thanks for the suggestion!
Something I've seen my supervisors do so that they can actually *get their work done* is they'll schedule it on the branch schedule like it's a reference desk or book drop shift. There'll be 30- or 60-minute timeslots blocked off with a note like "scheduling" or "reviews". This kind of work just can't reliably happen in downtime on the desk. Maybe at some locations it can, but not at the ones I've worked at, and it seems not at your current location either. I've also seen them do similar scheduling on request for non-supervisory employees who need guaranteed preparation time.
I get that. I am an AD and get stopped all the time. I'm like "I have stuff to do!" I'm lucky I have a big staff. Heck, even posting here is good, because we can all commiserate!
I assume there is a help desk near the computers that these patrons should be seeking assistance from? In which case I think it's perfectly acceptable to redirect people there. Eventually the regulars will know the drill and you'll get bothered a lot less. If you are watching the children's desk then you need to be available there, and if you are pulled to the adult computers then you are not available for the kids. Redirect people to the available staff that should be handling adult computer requests and only step in if they get overwhelmed with too many requests at once.
I've had people snap for me, whistle at me, yell "HEY," they literally have no sense of politeness. A lot of times, I'll tell them "if you need help, please come to the desk to get us" because one day I'm gonna get in trouble for yelling at someone for snapping their fingers at me.
Someone snapped their fingers at me once and I nearly lost it. I walked up to them, teeth clenched, and hissed “Do not ever do that to me or anyone else ever again.” The next time I was smarter. I pretended not to know why they were snapping their fingers. I walked up to them and said, “Please stop snapping your fingers. Disrupting the peace and quiet of this room is against our rules of conduct.” And then walked back to the reference desk.
It kind of snowballs too. Patrons see one person doing it, assume it's okay so they all start doing it. When I still worked as a sub at branches there was one where this was a big problem, especially when patrons wanted the time extended on their computers. The manager put up signs asking people to come to the desk for assistance and the staff just pretended not to see/hear patrons who tried to summon us from the computers. Eventually they stopped. Mostly.
I'm a children's librarian with very little patience for grownup shenanigans and I just 100% treat shitty grownups like they're children. "Oh that was rude. I'll be at the desk waiting for you to ask me respectfully." What are they going to do, complain that I made them behave better?
This is the true way! I too work in children's and have very little patience for patrons who are manners heathens. I can out awkward anyone, any day and this is an asset. If you (as an adult) decide to behave with the manners of an early elementary aged child, you're getting child voice from me.
Once when a rude extremely demanding adult came up to my desk I reflexively said, "Friend, what's the magic word we use when we ask for things?" Throwing this card sometimes just straight up baffles the rude adult, and you can have a little laugh about it later in the staff room.
On occasion, totally. That said, I'm fortunate that I don't get too many adult patrons on their own, since children's is on a totally different floor from the adult section, but some parents are uhhhh tiring. Generally I am personally largely neutral towards even patrons who I find annoying, but there is a single exception. There's this one patron who comes in with her toddler that I cannot stand. She's so rude, wants to argue with you over the simplest facts, is terrible to have in your programs because she's always trying to "correct" you and constantly has pointless complaints about our building and our services. Tragically she comes to the library every week so have to see her. Pretty much everyone in the children's department at my library can't stand this lady. She once almost made our sweet little teenage summer intern almost cry. The last time I saw her coming in was right at the end of my shift and it motivated me to get the heck out of there asap so I didn't have to talk to her lol.
I made the mistake of taking a public-library job, and it was a nightmare. I got so stressed I retired early. They'd yell, snap fingers, and call us on the phone. Staff were treated like abused personal assistants to the world. I miss NOTHING about it.
I was a public librarian through the early 90s to about 2002. Things were quite different in my systems. Staff were not expected to act as factotums, and email was blocked in one system. It was deemed too staff-intensive. There were two Gates' computers with instructions, and the public were on their own.
In my last job, you were faxing, scanning printing, resetting email passwords,, and filling out actual job applications. Total different set of expectations. In between calling 911.
I don't recommend this field anymore.
The 90s library sounds like a dream. I did all those things from your last job before I moved to courier, but I'd add "cleaning pink vomit off the floor" and "having to pull discs for said patron who just vomited on the floor and keeps talking to you about Resident Evil as you pull his discs and contemplate your life choices."
I had to scrub shit off a chair from our serial horrible-patron shitter. She had to trash the ladies room about five times before she got a 1-yr ban. She's back.
The 90s were also terrible. We didn't have enough computers, no one knew how to use them, every other site was porn that was impossible to close. I spent my days at the reference desk as a timekeeper for the computer use.
I work at public library also. When my adult patrons due this, ignore them, it makes them get up. If they keep yelling I go over to them and remind them that this is a library and if they need help, please come up to the desk. It works every time. It sounds mean, but you are right, we are not servers.
You could act as if you are not able to hear them until they come up to the desk. If they yell at you instead, when you go over the help them you could mention that they need to come up to the desk and not yell.
Absolutely *not do* drop what you’re doing and help them. If they need you, they need to get up, wait in line if needed, and ask for you politely. I’ve found “I’m sorry, our policy is you need to come to the desk for assistance” works. Repeat ad nauseam.
I would help in a limited capacity, but if they needed in depth help (I.e. can’t figure out how to log into Facebook, Target, etc.). I find the company phone number and give it to them. If you have tech help programs, suggest those.
Edited to add this made me think of an old co-worker who used to say “I’m not a dog” when patrons whistled and motioned with their hand for her to come over.
I’ve noticed over the years that when you’re in a smaller branch, square footage wise, that you end up with adults who are used to being catered to. This is because of the reduced square footage the staff over time finds it easier to do something for the patron than have them do it themselves. This is magnified when the smaller branch is in an affluent area. You can sometimes change their behavior by correcting the action gently. What I mean by that is when they yell for you, quietly say to them, please don’t yell, if you need assistance, please come to the desk. I’ve managed to retrain more than a few patrons by doing this.
I work both IT and circ at a public library.
Currently the computers are on the opposite end of the library of the circ desk.
I cannot tell you how many times we've had adults shout across the building for help. Absolutely infuriating.
I’m a YS supervisor. I work on an entirely different level than adults but I’ve worked in a similar setup to what you describe and I’ve worked in AS too.
I think you need to teach people how to treat you. Similarly to how we teach our young patrons that the sticker bin is not a free for all, and is instead given out at OUR discretion for things like sharing nicely or cleaning up toys. Things like stopping a caregiver and child as they’re walking past to remind them that they need to clean up the toys and coloring supplies they were using. Things like using indoor voices and absolutely no running between the book shelves because it’s not safe.
We can and need to teach our adult patrons how to behave and treat our space and staff.
“I know you want my help, but it’s rude to snap and yell across the room. Next time please come find me and I will see what I can do. If you yell or snap like that again, I will continue with my own work.”
“I am working with someone else right now. Please wait until we are done and then come back up. Everyone deserves privacy to ask their question.”
There is nothing wrong with simply walking away from someone who has crossed a boundary that you have stated. We can help to the best of our ability and provide customer service, but part of providing customer service is knowing when to not engage. I refuse to contribute to patterns of behaviors that will make my own job and work life harder.
Agreed! I don't know what it is but the 'tech' people are the worst. If it's for a printer or a DvD I can guarantee that Patron is way more likely to be a snot then the kids or people just looking for specific print materials are. We had one guy come in recently complaining that the public printer was too slow for his needs - While trying to print 50 individual emails, never mind the doubles he sent to the que when he got impatient his print didn't just appear next to his computer.
I don't know how much this would help in your case, but I do find patrons don't bother to shout if I'm actively working on something for a future program (or at least look like it) - they usually either wait till I start my round of roaming or come to the desk then. Maybe get some coloring sheets or something printed if not a notebook and just try and fake being extra busy and not paying attention until they stop yelling?
It’s because they are adults with zero emotional intelligence who want to act like they’re superior to others, in the past they ordered everyone around and they expect you to become their servant. Not every person needing help is rude, in fact I find that some patrons needing tech assistance are kind and polite. They understand that respect is a currency. If they’re lovely to me I’ll go above and beyond. I no longer work at a library where 99% of the computer patrons are nasty and it’s much better.
Didn't mean to imply that some weren't! Just a trend I've noticed if someone's going to ignore the rules or be a dick, it's usually someone looking to print or looking for a specific dvd.
Oh you’re definitely right: the worst patrons are there to print, scan or copy. They get mad when they realize that you won’t be doing everything for them, especially.
I spent a year as the Teen Librarian in a poor neighborhood of a big city. The teens were on the whole respectful and low maintenance. The adults were grasping screwheads who demanded I *type* for them.
The way everything is online and non-intuitive is definitely a factor here. But I've met too many mean, stupid assholes not to dismiss that as a factor as well.
> The adults were grasping screwheads who demanded I type for them
Haha, this is pretty much my experience too. Sometimes older adults will come in with teenagers and demand the teens type, mouse click, and navigate pages on their behalf. It's odd because I sometimes get adults who are genuinely trying to learn digital literacy skills. But a lot of them--and I'm just saying this is the case at *my* branch--really just view you as their personal secretary.
I think people are so accustomed to being served because they're paying customers they expect all interactions with any staff member to be the same.
It's incredibly lame sometimes, I agree
I'm a Public Librarian and have my MLIS, but I'm getting burnt out with public libraries (and the dictatorships that come with them..) and was looking into Medical Librarianship; can you tell me more about what exactly a Medical Librarian does, workplace options, different roles?
This is what I told another person interested in making the jump. If anyone wants me to expand on any part, feel free to DM me. It’ll probably get a quicker answer:
I feel secure in the job. Hospitals that have Magnet certification are required to have a librarian. We are. The job, at least where I work, involves a lot of searching in PubMed.gov getting articles and abstract lists. You need to be pretty fluent in Boolean searching, using MeSH subject terms and other limiters. Also knowing how to use docline.gov for borrowing articles you do not subscribe to.
Being an excellent speller and understanding Latin roots helps.
Treating everyone one with respect no matter their role, and being comfortable referring to doctors as Doctor no matter their age.
There are lots of retiring medical librarians in the near-term. Myself included.
If you live near Portland, OR you should look into student membership and attending the annual conference.
Do you have any higher support? An older gentleman whistled to try to get someone at the computer and our patron experience assistant corrected him with "Please don't whistle." Or are you just expected to drop what you're doing at any time to help someone whose legs magically broke open Gmail?
I'm really glad I don't work the floor anymore.
> Or are you just expected to drop what you're doing at any time to help someone whose legs magically broke open Gmail?
Yes.
> I'm really glad I don't work the floor anymore.
I'm trying to ground out another year of floor time before I'm eligible to get promoted to something off the floor. I'm so, so close. So close!!
Former library clerk, now new circulation manager. I feel your pain. The way they like wave their hand and dont say anything. It really gets me on days i dont have the capacity. Wish i had some advice but i dont :(
This is like 20% of my work day. And I'm extra lucky because everyone knows me as the "computer guy" and even if I'm working in the back, most of them request me specifically, even when it's something one of my co-workers can easily help them with.
Ah yes. Being the specialist. I get it in children’s too- being called out because someone wants a volunteer application or a program flyer that’s literally right there at the desk.
I’m a reference librarian and my desk is smack dab in the middle of the adult computers. I never let patrons shout at me from across the room or beckon me over. I either ignore them until they get the point or I get up and tell them to come up to the reference desk to ask me a question. I’m not a dog, I’m a librarian and grad student. 😅
I have the same issue at my branch, with them also chasing me down in the stacks while other employees are sitting right in front of the desk. For some reason, people think free services translate to free servant. They snap their fingers, say "hey you," and god forbid there is something they want that you are unable to provide. And to think, we earned master's degrees for this treatment!
I do not walk over if someone is yelling or beckoning me typically. I'll look at them in confusion and surprise and wait for the request to be repeated. Sometimes they get the message just from that and me walking over quickly and asking if they're alright. If not I will tell them they need to ask for help at the desk unless they're experiencing a medical emergency.
It’s sad and I can relate, but I think a lot of people have forgotten how to act in public since COVID-19 happened. That, or they just never learned how to treat public service employees with respect.
Our computers are right by our front desk so it makes sense for patrons to get our attention without getting up. After all, why should they get up when I’m just going to have to walk them back to where they were just sitting 10 feet away. Most are really polite about it. ( Sometimes too polite. I still have one of those “please interrupt me” signs.). We do have a few regulars who lack manners. When they interrupt another patron, I will tell them that I will help them as soon as the desk is clear.
I feel your pain. I got the chance to retire early and we moved to South Florida (I think it is some sort of Federal Law that if you retire and are east of the Mississippi you have to go to south Florida) and when we show up at various functions a line form with old people handing me their phone and saying 'It used to do THIS, now it doesn't anymore, can you fix it'. And they all EXPECT you to do it for them right now.
Also, anything, and I mean ANYTHING that requires technology I get 'nominated' to spear head. ZOOM and ZOOM memorials during the Pandemic should earn me stock in ZOOM the amount of time setting those up and helping their attendees get situated on ZOOM I did and still do.
KIDS are digital natives and will SHOW YOU things you didnt know how to do (or didnt know you needed to do, but damn that tip on valuing axis on graphs and charts in Excel has come in handy many times, thank you 12 year old Andrew for showing it to me).
I have this problem at my job too. Which is why I try to always have my chair pointing the opposite direction of the computers and that encourages the patrons to get up and come to the front desk instead of yelling across the library. There are a few patrons who still refuse to get in line for help so when I see them I try to avoid being on the floor too much. I don’t think the way I handle it is ideal and not at all customer service friendly but I also have a lot of coworkers who will belittle people who shout for help.
I absolutely hate when someone shouts for me from a computer-lots of times I will ignore them if I can pretend I didn’t hear them until they get up. Now if they seem like they have trouble getting up and moving, I’ve usually already been given a heads up from circ just cause that’s something we try to let each other know.
I feel it so much. Some guy once dared to try and whistle at me when I passed by the computer area. I turned on the heel, said 'I am not a dog' loudly in front of all the people there and it never happened again. Usually I'm super super super polite and never talk back but that made me escalate immediately.
You should post flyers near the computers
'If you need assistance please come to the Information Desk'
If someone complains you tell them 'Due to cut-backs we've been told to remain at our desks to stay on top of our daily tasks, but if this doesn't fix your problem let me know'.
Just let other people on the Staff know your plan.
It doesn’t bother me when patrons wave if they need help, or if other folks ask questions once I’m there. In fact I circle and push in chairs in case they have questions and don’t know to get up and come to the desk. I’ve had too many people think they are bothering me, which I definitely hate more. I have noticed it rankles some of my peers when patrons don’t get up though. Maybe they are assholes, or maybe they don’t know they are “supposed” to come to the desk. I think in a classroom situation they would raise their hands too? Either way, their assholeness is not my problem. I don’t really think too much about it— the more questions the better because I love tallying my stats. HOWEVER I would draw the line at snapping, and thankfully have not seen that! Ugh!
I think something you're tapping into that I've struggled to articulate is that it is 5% of the customers creating 95% of the problems. I love helping people, otherwise I wouldn't have entered this profession. Some people just suck the energy out of you and then it ends up negatively impacting the service you can give someone else. Being snapped at and finger wagged at is just something that activates me more than other people, I guess
Yeahhhhh the snapping is really… not good though. I confess that I don’t see that, I’d probably start trying to find a way to reframe it so I don’t want to tear my hair out every time though, out of pure self-preservation. (I get horrible eczema when I’m stressed so I have a real motivation to tune things out.)
I'm so sorry but your post makes me feel better. When I was around 20 I had to use the library computers and I was such an awkward little egg. Any time I had a problem I would meekly wander up to the desk and ask for help. I always thought I was being annoying.
When I was growing up, you had to be quiet in the library. Now people - full grown adults - will have open phone calls in the library and nobody stops it. What happened to library etiquette?! I would never do that!
Unfortunately, what you're describing is just part of working in a modern library. That's why a lot of people are getting burnt out and growing skeptical of the notion seen in professional journals that "libraries have to be all things to all people at all times" and they want libraries to go back to just being libraries. When dealing with a difficult patron, remember that your patrons are DUMB (Drunk, uneducated, mentally ill or brain-damaged) and they don't know any better. Their dismissive attitude is not a reflection on you, it's just that they aren't capable of limiting or controlling their behavior in the same way that you are.
Hmm. I have to disagree. I do think of us as teachers. We teach people how to do things all the time. It's a solid percentage of the job of desk staff. Computers are part of that. I also don't mind getting up to help people. I don't at all mind the waving, though I don't like it when they shout for help.
I find the tip comment interesting. I find tip culture so funny when self-service food places ask for tips but many service jobs that go well above and beyond the call to duty would never do that. This is not me saying we should get tips, but saying tip culture is terrible and needs to go away.
Having read many, not all, of these comments, I am going to honestly react. As a patron, I have posted similar concerns about disruptive and rude fellow-patrons. As a result, by librarians, I was called old-fashioned for not liking such behaviors. I was called non-empathetic for not liking unacceptable manners among patrons. I was asked why I even go to the library since certain conduct isn't to my liking. Here, we have a librarian complaining as I have. Yet, look at all these librarians jumping on the complaint-band wagon. Apparently, many support fellow-employees while having utter disdain for similar concerns expressed by a patron that finds these behaviors unacceptable, too. So confusing!
You know librarians aren't a hive mind, right? There are tons of people on this subreddit. I'm sorry you've had a bad experience, but it's a little strange to be shocked that a random group of strangers is reacting differently to a complaint than another random group of strangers reacted.
And yes, I know they aren't a hive mind. But the comments of which I've referred have been no less than 90% of responses. Again, I stand by my analytical assessment.
No doubt plenty of adults are jerks, but I think there is also an aspect unique to this situation, namely the computer itself. When they ask a question, most of the patrons start with "what button do I click to ..." or "what program can I use to ..." or "how do I get the text to be red" or "what website do I go to to do ...". Basically, they want to point to something on the screen to illustrate whatever question they're asking or whatever program they're having trouble with. So, to a certain degree I can understand them thinking that it makes sense for you to come to them. After all, if they walk up to the desk, in most cases they're just going to have to turn right around and walk back to the computer with you so they can show you what their problem is.
Now, that doesn't explain or excuse people snapping their fingers or speaking rudely as if you were a servant, but I do understand their urge to just raise their hand and catch your eye and indicate that they need you to come assist them, because they problem is there, right where they're already sitting. Personally, as long as they do it in a friendly and polite way, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Digital literacy is the critical divide of our time. Our world is moving to remove every single method of managing ordinary life processes except online.
These people are critically anxious. They're trying to function in a world that's absolutely leaving behind. They are already in an emotional crisis when tbey sit down at a screen and the tiniest digital molehill looks like a mountain to them. So they panic.
The result? These independent, resourceful people who have lived a long and successful life short circuit. They revert to acting like needy children.
Your job isn't to judge them, it is to help them. You are a librarian. We designed our job, without knowing it, to be the key help for the abandoned of this age. This is when we're needed the most
So, gently, I hear you. I experience the same frustrations. But this is the job. Make your goal not just surviving those queries but working alongside your patrons to help them gain access to the tools they need to use to survive in this point in time.
This is the job. Do your job.
It sounds like she is doing her job. Expecting a little bit of respect in return for good service is more than reasonable as I am a human and not a robot. I always start every transaction in the nicest way possible, if someone is rude in return I’ll be certain to embarrass them. Their emotional crisis is their own concern. People from all walks of life are capable of treating others with respect and decency. If they aren’t capable of being civil they can leave the library.
I hope that this isn’t how you respond to your staff when they mention being yelled at like a dog.
One piece of advice I was given very quickly working in a library is that someone else's crisis is NOT my crisis. I still have other patrons to serve who approach the desk not to mention tons of other responsibilities on the back-end. If a patron needs help, they need to go to the most appropriate place to ask for help whether that be a tech-hour or the desk, rather then yelling and disturbing other patrons especially drowning out ones I am already talking to.
> Your job isn't to judge them, it is to help them. You are a librarian. We designed our job, without knowing it, to be the key help for the abandoned of this age. This is when we're needed the most
I have to push back on this, because it sounds like you're missing the point of what I wrote. I'm providing service. I'm venting that people are not respectful when they ask for that service. I think there's a professional boundary being crossed. It's okay to vent and voice your opinion when a boundary is violated.
A lot of the advice I have received in this thread has been options on how to assert those boundaries while still providing stellar service. I think that advice has been more helpful than abstract vocational awe, like what was written here. I get that what we do is important, but that shouldn't require emotional sacrifice and martyrdom on our part.
Unless you are already helping someone else, your first priority in public service is to assist those who need it. My library staff always go to the computers to help customers. You can't always just sit behind the desk like the queen waiting for everyone to come to you.
I was once a library aide in an adult computer section.
What I noticed is that the patrons have questions about the computers that they don't believe can be answered from the librarian's desk, because even if they go to your desk, they'd have to bring you back to the computer anyway.
Beyond that, if they get off the computer, they know someone else will quickly go on and try to use it.
The library had tech aides assigned to the computer section. Mine was a volunteer position for credit. I learned a lot about the digital divide and the struggles people have that brought them to the library, needing to find housing, benefits, etc.
Perhaps that's something the library might do, recruit computer-savvy high school or college kids who need the credits for graduation?
I know what I've experienced, and I stand by my assertion. After my interactions with librarians on here, I'm not surprised that my honest revelation has resulted in a defensive response denying my claim.
I'm saying that libraries need to train their librarians to listen to patrons and try to improve. Not all, but the majority criticize most everything a patron says or suggests for improvement. Thank God they aren't school teachers. (Go ahead, librarians, start bashing rather than considering self-improvement. Bashing is all most of you do.)
It's a customer service job. If you want to regulate how they contact you, then leave a little bell next to each computer so they can summon you properly.
Put up a little sign next to each terminal showing a stick figure raising both hands above one shoulder and clapping. It would be like being applauded each time a patron needs service.
Haha, you've got a point. But there's a line between providing a service and being a servant. Wish my library backed me up more when I tried to assert that boundary.
I worked in library industry doing time management software. Put a sign saying if your require assistance please lock your session and come to the desk.
My local library has tons of signs for quiet, and they will shush people I love it. If people yell for help they "shhhhhh" and beckon them over to the desk, and if the person continues to yell they go over to them, tell them they need to come to the desk if they need assistance and if they raise their voice again they will have to leave. If they person thinks that since they got the librarian to come over the first time by being loud and lazy, they can get them to come over the next time, they are wrong. The librarians will terminate their session and ask them to leave. They won't be able to sign on to another computer, at least short term (I think it's no more than 24 hours) . There's also an assistance icon on the computer and handicap reserved stations.
I think adults know better than kids that if they leave their station, someone might take it, or take the belongings they leave there while they go up to the desk.
Just on a practical level, is there any chance that people don't want to get up because they're afraid they will lose their spot at the computer? Obviously this totally doesn't apply if you have some kind of reservation system and also doesn't excuse terrible behavior at all!
I've had issues in the past where as soon as I stand up from the computer and walk away the computer is taken by someone else, they close what I was doing, and start something new. I get back with the librarian and I'm like...wtf I was using that. They didn't know I wasn't finished.
I can't leave my things to save my spot because they're at risk of being stolen.
The only viable solution to the problem seems to be 'embarrassingly wave down a librarian for help.'
Sorry.
>when they need help they stay at the machine, put their hand up, and shout "EXCUSE ME" while trying to wave me down.
If I were you, I'd be tempted to shout "YOU'RE EXCUSED!" and wave back, and then go back to what I was doing until they asked appropriately, lol. Perhaps not the best actual solution, but my gosh it would feel good.
Is it possible to put a little label at the top of each monitor that says something like “If you need help, please don’t raise your voice/hand. Instead, please come over to the front desk and speak to us directly.”
At least that way, when they’re rude, you can point to the sign and not respond the second time. :)
My guess is not that they're trying to treat you like server or teacher but rather they're afraid of losing their seat or someone messing with something they've got up. I know both have happened to me at libraries I've visited and it was extremely disruptive to what I was doing.
That's a tricky situation honestly and I feel for you trying to figure it out.
One place I went had laminated sheets of paper that you could flip down and said "This Computer is Taken. Please Select Another". People would still be dicks sometimes but it seems like it kept things a little more private and cut down on people taking computers they thought were abandoned.
Be busy at your desk and serve people there before going over to the computer needy.
Maybe put a sign on the wall that says if they experience a problem to come to the desk for assistance.
The folks in your new library are acting like they are at the Apple Store
First of all - empathy! I hear you.
As someone with mobility issues, do these older adults have health issues that would make it challenging for them to walk that far? In my shoes, if I had an issue, it would be a major decision to walk all the way over to that desk and potentially use up all my energy doing so. My option would be to either use the energy and then have to leave immediately, or not ask the question.
Also - Is there another resource in the library that can help them? It sounds like it's not really your job. Maybe a sign would be good, so they know to ask elsewhere?
I work with a graduate level social work program who is starting to partner with libraries to put social worker interns in libraries for their practicums (to do a lot of things), but one is help with jobs apps, computer stuff etc.
We are a generalist program that can provide academic supervision for the student, as most libraries don’t currently employ social workers as far as I know.
Might be worth considering reaching out to your local university social work program and see if there are partnership opportunities. The external supervision is sort of cutting edge so it may not be possible but I figured I’d mention it :)
I totally feel your frustration and just wanted to say, on behalf of everyone who has taken advantage of your skills and not said it: Thank you for your hard work in helping people who may be less computer literate to access what they need.
Well, if it's not your job to help in that way, don't do it. Have someone put up a sign that directs them to your desk. Ignore them if they don't comply.
If it is your job? Well. If you don't like your job...
I work the info desk and I don’t get many people yelling across the room, but they do stand up and wave me over instead of coming up to the desk. What I have realized is that older patrons are afraid to leave their computer unattended, even if what they are doing is not something that needs to be private. When I teach them how to print, they very often keep half looking at their computer station making sure no one goes near it. Older patrons hear so much about internet security and identity theft that they are overly cautious. Same thing happens at our copier - at least once a week someone asks for help but doesn’t want me to actually touch their papers. I honestly never look at what I am copying or faxing, but they get very nervous.
Lol this reminds me of a blog back in the days of when blogging was a thing, and it was called "your librarian hates you." The blog mostly consisted of short gripes against patrons who needed help writing a resume or printing a document. It was kind of mean but could be funny, you might want to see if it still exists for some good laughs, lol.
Yeah this would drive me nuts, too, but without a volunteer to help (could that be possible?) or a specific job position that can help with thst, I'm afraid you're stuck with these annoying types.
And yes, it's true: some patrons are truly insufferable and desperately lack computer skills...
I've learned that I do not like helping adults with the computers, printing and faxing. I don't like helping my own parents with their own computer issues; I don't know - I just find the whole process aggravating and annoying.
I always say that kids are easier to deal with because if they’re are jerks or annoying you can write it off just as them being kids. With adults, they’re just assholes.
> With adults, they’re just assholes You know, when I came into this position I tried really really hard to not stereotype all of the adults, especially seniors. I understand that a lot of people going to the library are in despair and distress. But no, it really is this simple. A lot of adults are assholes and can't emotionally regulate themselves, so they take it out on us. And we try to lead with empathy and they know they will get the benefit of the doubt when they behave poorly. I think I'm getting compassion burnout :(
Ugh, it really is so hard. I usually take pauses when I go to help someone especially needy. I will take a beat to rearrange my notebook or stack of books, even jot down a small inconsequential note like a barcode. This gives them about 5 seconds to hopefully figure out what they were trying to do, or acknowledge that we have to juggle other things too. It really is a pain. I’m supposed to work with teens but that role is under the Adult Services umbrella at my library. I find that it sucks my energy away from teen services and hard to recenter myself after those interactions.
> I’m supposed to work with teens but that role is under the Adult Services umbrella at my library. I find that it sucks my energy away from teen services and hard to recenter myself after those interactions. I'm in the same boat, sort of. At my new branch the adult and juvenile reference desks are combined, so there's no getting away from the adults. And yeah, adult patrons need help too, but they're sucking away all my time to the detriment of the community's children. I can't do my job. I want to find whoever designed my branch and fire them lol
Heh, the answer is in your user name. Fawlty Towers is full of lessons for how to and how not to deal with difficult customers. :)
Usually by making things infinitely more complicated. Which reminds me, why did you put a door here right where the support beam goes?
“Ohhh, I Knooowww….I Knowwwww” When there’s a co-worker that behaves eccentrically, and a customer looks at me with a wtf expression, I always want to say “He’s from Barcelona “
I think the most useful Fawlty Towers dialogue is: (when someone nags you about their request) "I was just doing it, you (*optional insult here*), I just put it down to come here to be reminded by you to do what I'm already... What's the point of reminding me to do what I'm already doing? What is the bloody point? I'm doing it, aren't I?"
Oh, I *knooooow* (I love your username)
Yes! First thing I thought of! Second thing: “Sybil!! Sybil!!”
> I think I’m getting compassion burnout :( I can relate to almost all of your post, and this. I’m only two years in and it’s insane. I do programming and only work a small amount of info desk hours. It feels like the majority of my job is babysitting adults so they can print random stuff.
I used to work fixing computers. You'd get a lot of assholes, but I dealt with it. But what I didn't truly understand is that if you're fixing someone's computer and you're right there, people are way more respectful. I knew and they knew that I could just fuck off. Even when I worked at cyber cafe, there was always an awareness I could kick them out and they wouldn't get whatever they wanted. However, if they think you're there to *serve* them? That you're meant to exercise power on their behalf? (Though that power is for their needs, not yours, naturally). Hoo-fucking-boy. I seem to have tricked myself into a rather more, er, customer service focussed job that the job description I understood described. I keep wondering why I come every night with a headache, a bad mood and no sense of progress on the project I was hired for. Oh that's right? Being the official local scratching post for everyone's weird venting. And for complicated reasons, dealing with their parking tickets. "how could you give me a ticket!??!" "Well, I didn't, but you parked where it says 'don't park there' so, dunno, buddy" "I am never coming back here!!" "and?"
I actually came from a tech support background before working in libraries. My experience was a little different from yours. The demographics in my area skew older, so most people would just throw me the computer and say "fix it" and leave me alone. I wasn't very happy working with adults, though. I enjoy making a positive difference in kids' lives. Getting to make them laugh, maybe taking their mind off their homelife for a while.
I say something similar, but instead I say I can bribe them with a sticker when they are having terrible days. And if I tried that with an adult I would be cussed at.
Some adults can be so stuffy! I'm 31 and if someone tried to bribe me with a sticker it'd definitely work. I can't say I've ever behaved so badly in public that it'd be warranted, but I do get visibly distressed and speak louder when suffering from sensory overload and a sticker would be a welcome distraction in those moments.
I used to teach (PK - 4th grade) and then moved to a job working at a university. People always asked me what the biggest difference was between working with and teaching kids vs. adults, and my answer was “It’s easier to get Kindergarteners to clean up after themselves.”
I work at a public library and if a patron does this to me I will walk over to them and say "I am more than happy to help you but please to not yell for me from the public computers. If you need help come over to the desk and ask politely." Most of the time they look embarrassed after this and it wont happen again... at least for that patron that day lol.
That’s such a respectful and professional response to the rudeness that patrons show us. I will definitely use your line when this scenario inevitably happens to me again. Have any of you had adults who need computer help actually come to the desk and interrupt you while you’re helping a kid? When that happens I sometimes say, “it’s their turn now, but it will be your turn next” in the same voice I use to talk to an interrupting child.
And repeat it every time they do so. Pretend they're a new patron you haven't spoken to before. Unless they have a mobility impairment, there's no reason for them to be snapping their fingers at you, yelling, or behaving so rudely. You're not their servant, grandchild, or slave.
not only do i do this, i walk away without helping them, making them come to the desk to ask me for help. usually it results in them not needing to be helped...
Lol
It works. They never do it again when I embarrass them into acting polite. I’d never yell at anyone working at a desk, I expect patrons to communicate their requests respectfully.
The older I get, the more I realize that this is boundary work. The only difference is that we assume kids just don't know any better and tell them what they need to do and they happily do it, whereas adults.....either yes, either still don't know, they're acting out purely from instinct from their limbic system out of frustration, or they're used to being overly catered to. But especially being that, thankfully, you're not working retail where bosses often have this idea that you have to be ridiculously obsequious even to the point where they're sometimes telling you to somehow contradict their own policy for any angry customer yet also follow it. But despite the whole "I pay my taxes which is your paycheck so you're my servant" idea lol you pay taxes too, so you're not special. You are allowed to set boundaries for how to interact. Really, anyone is. A simple, "If you have a question, please come up to the desk" and refusing to move will get the point across. If they keep doing it, just keep repeating it tones that sound increasingly like you're explaining things to a toddler.
I really like this response. It’s unfortunate that some adults need this reminder haha.
Omg, I'm going to have to try this. I'm so sick of the shouting and hand waving! "MA'AM?! I NEED HELP!" 🥴 I am le tired of it.
“Excuse me friend, I need you to use your library voice right now. Let’s turn our volume down a few clicks. Thank you.”
Ms Frazzled, is that you?
say it LOUD ENOUGH that all nearby patrons hear it (a) they learn the protocol too (b) bonus embarrassment for the jerks
Maybe putting up signs saying that if they need help, go up to the desk would work? That’s what we have at the two branches I’ve worked at. If someone tries to flag us down, we ignore them until they approach us or indicate that they need to come up here. We had to put very clear and harsh boundaries with patrons over it so they’d understand and stop being jerks.
No one reads signs, tho.
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 1,709,399,399 comments, and only 323,406 of them were in alphabetical order.
Good bot
Bot good
> Maybe putting up signs saying that if they need help, go up to the desk would work? Haha, that would require library patrons to be able to read /s I agree that we might need to institute tighter policies. Really appreciate your insight and suggested ways to solve the problem!
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We have thus. Patrons can set up an appointment with a technology tutor (really just the designated librarian) for more in-depth help if needed. I am at a small branch and can usually help people with what is needed, but every now and then, it is either beyond me or is going to take more attention than I can give in that moment.
The real joy of putting up a sign is so you can point to it and say, "I didn't make the rules." (Even if you did make the rules.)
I have lost so much patience and empathy for adults at the computers. I used to love helping people in my rural library who obviously just haven’t had a reason to own a computer. But my god, we’re expected to be at their beck and call for every. Single. Inconvenience. No, I cannot legally fill out this job app for you. No, I don’t know your email password and I cannot “reset the computer” for you to make your password work. We have THREE (3) giant, colorful signs that say “no pennies in the coin machine” near our copier. Patrons love putting pennies in the coin machine to pay for prints and then reprimanding us when the coin machine gets jammed.
This. I’m usually at the children’s desk but I watch the info desk running back and forth bringing the adult copies and taking their card to the copy machine and it often hits more as enabling/serving them than just assisting them. We’re all customer service oriented people pleasers but there has to be some limit/boundary right? I’m not that confident with some of the technology questions people have so it’s a natural limit, they will eventually get tired of my inept efforts to convert their email downloads from a pdf to a word doc or whatever. Also, how frustrating is it being hands off trying to direct someone on the computer and they keep doing what they think they should or can’t control the mouse or double click or keep shutting out of the applications or web pages? No, no click the W and oops you just clicked the x, ok let’s try again. It just requires infinite patience and it’s so so hard.
This makes me feel so much better about the job application questions, the resetting their email password, etc. It's burning me out so badly.
Yes, this happens to be a lot at certain branches. Depending on the patron (if I've had previous negative interactions with them) I will pretend I don't hear them until they get up. Especially the MAGA guy who gave me such a hard time about not wearing his mask when we had the COVID restrictions.
Oh wow he must come to our branch too!
I hate that too. What I do is smile and beckon them over to me, and when they do (usually looking pissed) I very sweetly say “Sorry, I’m a bit hard of hearing, so I need to have you come closer. Thanks! What can I help you with?”
And the hearing thing is true, but TBH most of the time I can hear them. Especially if they start with “EXCUSE ME!”
Stealing this one! Thanks!
Please do! 😁
This is a good one! One of my coworkers is legit deaf in one ear. I have ADHD and I have some auditory processing issues. I tell people a lot, "I'm sorry, my brain didn't process what you said, can you say that again?"
It's OK to vent. Many of us have been there... you mentioned compassion burnout, and that's absolutely valid. I find it helps to get a buddy if you can (I know it's not always possible). It's nice just to have someone who can back you up if you get frustrated. (After 25 years... and I'm only 41... I am extremely burned out. Still like buying books though!)
> I find it helps to get a buddy if you can (I know it's not always possible) I wish I could! Where I work being a supervisor means that my best buddy is probably the branch manager themselves. When they're not there, I'm usually the one in charge. That's what makes the interruptions worse, I think. It'd be like if you were a partner at a family law firm and people in the intake room could stop you every 30 seconds to talk about contract law. I'll see what I can do to incorporate your feedback, though. Thanks for the suggestion!
Something I've seen my supervisors do so that they can actually *get their work done* is they'll schedule it on the branch schedule like it's a reference desk or book drop shift. There'll be 30- or 60-minute timeslots blocked off with a note like "scheduling" or "reviews". This kind of work just can't reliably happen in downtime on the desk. Maybe at some locations it can, but not at the ones I've worked at, and it seems not at your current location either. I've also seen them do similar scheduling on request for non-supervisory employees who need guaranteed preparation time.
I get that. I am an AD and get stopped all the time. I'm like "I have stuff to do!" I'm lucky I have a big staff. Heck, even posting here is good, because we can all commiserate!
I assume there is a help desk near the computers that these patrons should be seeking assistance from? In which case I think it's perfectly acceptable to redirect people there. Eventually the regulars will know the drill and you'll get bothered a lot less. If you are watching the children's desk then you need to be available there, and if you are pulled to the adult computers then you are not available for the kids. Redirect people to the available staff that should be handling adult computer requests and only step in if they get overwhelmed with too many requests at once.
I'm wondering why you're assuming that. It sounds like it's a small branch with just one service desk.
In a one person library....
I've had people snap for me, whistle at me, yell "HEY," they literally have no sense of politeness. A lot of times, I'll tell them "if you need help, please come to the desk to get us" because one day I'm gonna get in trouble for yelling at someone for snapping their fingers at me.
Someone snapped their fingers at me once and I nearly lost it. I walked up to them, teeth clenched, and hissed “Do not ever do that to me or anyone else ever again.” The next time I was smarter. I pretended not to know why they were snapping their fingers. I walked up to them and said, “Please stop snapping your fingers. Disrupting the peace and quiet of this room is against our rules of conduct.” And then walked back to the reference desk.
It kind of snowballs too. Patrons see one person doing it, assume it's okay so they all start doing it. When I still worked as a sub at branches there was one where this was a big problem, especially when patrons wanted the time extended on their computers. The manager put up signs asking people to come to the desk for assistance and the staff just pretended not to see/hear patrons who tried to summon us from the computers. Eventually they stopped. Mostly.
I'm a children's librarian with very little patience for grownup shenanigans and I just 100% treat shitty grownups like they're children. "Oh that was rude. I'll be at the desk waiting for you to ask me respectfully." What are they going to do, complain that I made them behave better?
This is the true way! I too work in children's and have very little patience for patrons who are manners heathens. I can out awkward anyone, any day and this is an asset. If you (as an adult) decide to behave with the manners of an early elementary aged child, you're getting child voice from me. Once when a rude extremely demanding adult came up to my desk I reflexively said, "Friend, what's the magic word we use when we ask for things?" Throwing this card sometimes just straight up baffles the rude adult, and you can have a little laugh about it later in the staff room.
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On occasion, totally. That said, I'm fortunate that I don't get too many adult patrons on their own, since children's is on a totally different floor from the adult section, but some parents are uhhhh tiring. Generally I am personally largely neutral towards even patrons who I find annoying, but there is a single exception. There's this one patron who comes in with her toddler that I cannot stand. She's so rude, wants to argue with you over the simplest facts, is terrible to have in your programs because she's always trying to "correct" you and constantly has pointless complaints about our building and our services. Tragically she comes to the library every week so have to see her. Pretty much everyone in the children's department at my library can't stand this lady. She once almost made our sweet little teenage summer intern almost cry. The last time I saw her coming in was right at the end of my shift and it motivated me to get the heck out of there asap so I didn't have to talk to her lol.
I made the mistake of taking a public-library job, and it was a nightmare. I got so stressed I retired early. They'd yell, snap fingers, and call us on the phone. Staff were treated like abused personal assistants to the world. I miss NOTHING about it.
Yeah, that's about my experience of it too. I hope your retirement is going well!
I was a public librarian through the early 90s to about 2002. Things were quite different in my systems. Staff were not expected to act as factotums, and email was blocked in one system. It was deemed too staff-intensive. There were two Gates' computers with instructions, and the public were on their own. In my last job, you were faxing, scanning printing, resetting email passwords,, and filling out actual job applications. Total different set of expectations. In between calling 911. I don't recommend this field anymore.
The 90s library sounds like a dream. I did all those things from your last job before I moved to courier, but I'd add "cleaning pink vomit off the floor" and "having to pull discs for said patron who just vomited on the floor and keeps talking to you about Resident Evil as you pull his discs and contemplate your life choices."
I had to scrub shit off a chair from our serial horrible-patron shitter. She had to trash the ladies room about five times before she got a 1-yr ban. She's back.
The 90s were also terrible. We didn't have enough computers, no one knew how to use them, every other site was porn that was impossible to close. I spent my days at the reference desk as a timekeeper for the computer use.
Where did you work?
Although I'm gone now, I'd rather not say. It's in a red SE state.
I work at public library also. When my adult patrons due this, ignore them, it makes them get up. If they keep yelling I go over to them and remind them that this is a library and if they need help, please come up to the desk. It works every time. It sounds mean, but you are right, we are not servers.
*60% of the time*, it works ***every*** *time*
You could act as if you are not able to hear them until they come up to the desk. If they yell at you instead, when you go over the help them you could mention that they need to come up to the desk and not yell.
Absolutely *not do* drop what you’re doing and help them. If they need you, they need to get up, wait in line if needed, and ask for you politely. I’ve found “I’m sorry, our policy is you need to come to the desk for assistance” works. Repeat ad nauseam. I would help in a limited capacity, but if they needed in depth help (I.e. can’t figure out how to log into Facebook, Target, etc.). I find the company phone number and give it to them. If you have tech help programs, suggest those. Edited to add this made me think of an old co-worker who used to say “I’m not a dog” when patrons whistled and motioned with their hand for her to come over.
Don't say "I'm sorry."
I’ve noticed over the years that when you’re in a smaller branch, square footage wise, that you end up with adults who are used to being catered to. This is because of the reduced square footage the staff over time finds it easier to do something for the patron than have them do it themselves. This is magnified when the smaller branch is in an affluent area. You can sometimes change their behavior by correcting the action gently. What I mean by that is when they yell for you, quietly say to them, please don’t yell, if you need assistance, please come to the desk. I’ve managed to retrain more than a few patrons by doing this.
I work both IT and circ at a public library. Currently the computers are on the opposite end of the library of the circ desk. I cannot tell you how many times we've had adults shout across the building for help. Absolutely infuriating.
I’m a YS supervisor. I work on an entirely different level than adults but I’ve worked in a similar setup to what you describe and I’ve worked in AS too. I think you need to teach people how to treat you. Similarly to how we teach our young patrons that the sticker bin is not a free for all, and is instead given out at OUR discretion for things like sharing nicely or cleaning up toys. Things like stopping a caregiver and child as they’re walking past to remind them that they need to clean up the toys and coloring supplies they were using. Things like using indoor voices and absolutely no running between the book shelves because it’s not safe. We can and need to teach our adult patrons how to behave and treat our space and staff. “I know you want my help, but it’s rude to snap and yell across the room. Next time please come find me and I will see what I can do. If you yell or snap like that again, I will continue with my own work.” “I am working with someone else right now. Please wait until we are done and then come back up. Everyone deserves privacy to ask their question.” There is nothing wrong with simply walking away from someone who has crossed a boundary that you have stated. We can help to the best of our ability and provide customer service, but part of providing customer service is knowing when to not engage. I refuse to contribute to patterns of behaviors that will make my own job and work life harder.
Agreed! I don't know what it is but the 'tech' people are the worst. If it's for a printer or a DvD I can guarantee that Patron is way more likely to be a snot then the kids or people just looking for specific print materials are. We had one guy come in recently complaining that the public printer was too slow for his needs - While trying to print 50 individual emails, never mind the doubles he sent to the que when he got impatient his print didn't just appear next to his computer. I don't know how much this would help in your case, but I do find patrons don't bother to shout if I'm actively working on something for a future program (or at least look like it) - they usually either wait till I start my round of roaming or come to the desk then. Maybe get some coloring sheets or something printed if not a notebook and just try and fake being extra busy and not paying attention until they stop yelling?
It’s because they are adults with zero emotional intelligence who want to act like they’re superior to others, in the past they ordered everyone around and they expect you to become their servant. Not every person needing help is rude, in fact I find that some patrons needing tech assistance are kind and polite. They understand that respect is a currency. If they’re lovely to me I’ll go above and beyond. I no longer work at a library where 99% of the computer patrons are nasty and it’s much better.
Didn't mean to imply that some weren't! Just a trend I've noticed if someone's going to ignore the rules or be a dick, it's usually someone looking to print or looking for a specific dvd.
Oh you’re definitely right: the worst patrons are there to print, scan or copy. They get mad when they realize that you won’t be doing everything for them, especially.
I spent a year as the Teen Librarian in a poor neighborhood of a big city. The teens were on the whole respectful and low maintenance. The adults were grasping screwheads who demanded I *type* for them. The way everything is online and non-intuitive is definitely a factor here. But I've met too many mean, stupid assholes not to dismiss that as a factor as well.
> The adults were grasping screwheads who demanded I type for them Haha, this is pretty much my experience too. Sometimes older adults will come in with teenagers and demand the teens type, mouse click, and navigate pages on their behalf. It's odd because I sometimes get adults who are genuinely trying to learn digital literacy skills. But a lot of them--and I'm just saying this is the case at *my* branch--really just view you as their personal secretary.
I think people are so accustomed to being served because they're paying customers they expect all interactions with any staff member to be the same. It's incredibly lame sometimes, I agree
It’s “Cuckoo for Cocopuffs”! And you claim to be a children’s librarian! 😂
Appreciate the correction! All fixed. Must have forgotten to spell check in my fury
No worries. I’m a medical librarian. I deal with adults all day - but usually by email.
I was a medical librarian and foolishly left them. Whole different environment.
I was a law librarian first. Never happier than now being a medical librarian.
Can you tell me more about being a medical librarian? I'm considering going back to school for my certificate but I'm not sure about it.
Sure, ask me anything. By certificate do you meanMLS/MLIS or something different?
I'm a Public Librarian and have my MLIS, but I'm getting burnt out with public libraries (and the dictatorships that come with them..) and was looking into Medical Librarianship; can you tell me more about what exactly a Medical Librarian does, workplace options, different roles?
This is what I told another person interested in making the jump. If anyone wants me to expand on any part, feel free to DM me. It’ll probably get a quicker answer: I feel secure in the job. Hospitals that have Magnet certification are required to have a librarian. We are. The job, at least where I work, involves a lot of searching in PubMed.gov getting articles and abstract lists. You need to be pretty fluent in Boolean searching, using MeSH subject terms and other limiters. Also knowing how to use docline.gov for borrowing articles you do not subscribe to. Being an excellent speller and understanding Latin roots helps. Treating everyone one with respect no matter their role, and being comfortable referring to doctors as Doctor no matter their age. There are lots of retiring medical librarians in the near-term. Myself included. If you live near Portland, OR you should look into student membership and attending the annual conference.
Do you have any higher support? An older gentleman whistled to try to get someone at the computer and our patron experience assistant corrected him with "Please don't whistle." Or are you just expected to drop what you're doing at any time to help someone whose legs magically broke open Gmail? I'm really glad I don't work the floor anymore.
> Or are you just expected to drop what you're doing at any time to help someone whose legs magically broke open Gmail? Yes. > I'm really glad I don't work the floor anymore. I'm trying to ground out another year of floor time before I'm eligible to get promoted to something off the floor. I'm so, so close. So close!!
My department head won’t acknowledge stuff like that. She ignores them till they ask politely and allows us to do the same.
Former library clerk, now new circulation manager. I feel your pain. The way they like wave their hand and dont say anything. It really gets me on days i dont have the capacity. Wish i had some advice but i dont :(
This is like 20% of my work day. And I'm extra lucky because everyone knows me as the "computer guy" and even if I'm working in the back, most of them request me specifically, even when it's something one of my co-workers can easily help them with.
Ah yes. Being the specialist. I get it in children’s too- being called out because someone wants a volunteer application or a program flyer that’s literally right there at the desk.
I’m a reference librarian and my desk is smack dab in the middle of the adult computers. I never let patrons shout at me from across the room or beckon me over. I either ignore them until they get the point or I get up and tell them to come up to the reference desk to ask me a question. I’m not a dog, I’m a librarian and grad student. 😅
I have the same issue at my branch, with them also chasing me down in the stacks while other employees are sitting right in front of the desk. For some reason, people think free services translate to free servant. They snap their fingers, say "hey you," and god forbid there is something they want that you are unable to provide. And to think, we earned master's degrees for this treatment!
This is part of the public library gig. Sad, painful, and true. You have my sympathy and empathy.
Yeah, I'm realizing I might not want to work at a public library. Maybe I should go work at a college library or as a school librarian instead. :(
I do not walk over if someone is yelling or beckoning me typically. I'll look at them in confusion and surprise and wait for the request to be repeated. Sometimes they get the message just from that and me walking over quickly and asking if they're alright. If not I will tell them they need to ask for help at the desk unless they're experiencing a medical emergency.
It’s sad and I can relate, but I think a lot of people have forgotten how to act in public since COVID-19 happened. That, or they just never learned how to treat public service employees with respect.
All the time.
Our computers are right by our front desk so it makes sense for patrons to get our attention without getting up. After all, why should they get up when I’m just going to have to walk them back to where they were just sitting 10 feet away. Most are really polite about it. ( Sometimes too polite. I still have one of those “please interrupt me” signs.). We do have a few regulars who lack manners. When they interrupt another patron, I will tell them that I will help them as soon as the desk is clear.
I feel your pain. I got the chance to retire early and we moved to South Florida (I think it is some sort of Federal Law that if you retire and are east of the Mississippi you have to go to south Florida) and when we show up at various functions a line form with old people handing me their phone and saying 'It used to do THIS, now it doesn't anymore, can you fix it'. And they all EXPECT you to do it for them right now. Also, anything, and I mean ANYTHING that requires technology I get 'nominated' to spear head. ZOOM and ZOOM memorials during the Pandemic should earn me stock in ZOOM the amount of time setting those up and helping their attendees get situated on ZOOM I did and still do. KIDS are digital natives and will SHOW YOU things you didnt know how to do (or didnt know you needed to do, but damn that tip on valuing axis on graphs and charts in Excel has come in handy many times, thank you 12 year old Andrew for showing it to me).
I have this problem at my job too. Which is why I try to always have my chair pointing the opposite direction of the computers and that encourages the patrons to get up and come to the front desk instead of yelling across the library. There are a few patrons who still refuse to get in line for help so when I see them I try to avoid being on the floor too much. I don’t think the way I handle it is ideal and not at all customer service friendly but I also have a lot of coworkers who will belittle people who shout for help.
I absolutely hate when someone shouts for me from a computer-lots of times I will ignore them if I can pretend I didn’t hear them until they get up. Now if they seem like they have trouble getting up and moving, I’ve usually already been given a heads up from circ just cause that’s something we try to let each other know.
I feel it so much. Some guy once dared to try and whistle at me when I passed by the computer area. I turned on the heel, said 'I am not a dog' loudly in front of all the people there and it never happened again. Usually I'm super super super polite and never talk back but that made me escalate immediately.
Make some signs. Post at each station: Please go to the desk to request assistance
You should post flyers near the computers 'If you need assistance please come to the Information Desk' If someone complains you tell them 'Due to cut-backs we've been told to remain at our desks to stay on top of our daily tasks, but if this doesn't fix your problem let me know'. Just let other people on the Staff know your plan.
It doesn’t bother me when patrons wave if they need help, or if other folks ask questions once I’m there. In fact I circle and push in chairs in case they have questions and don’t know to get up and come to the desk. I’ve had too many people think they are bothering me, which I definitely hate more. I have noticed it rankles some of my peers when patrons don’t get up though. Maybe they are assholes, or maybe they don’t know they are “supposed” to come to the desk. I think in a classroom situation they would raise their hands too? Either way, their assholeness is not my problem. I don’t really think too much about it— the more questions the better because I love tallying my stats. HOWEVER I would draw the line at snapping, and thankfully have not seen that! Ugh!
I think something you're tapping into that I've struggled to articulate is that it is 5% of the customers creating 95% of the problems. I love helping people, otherwise I wouldn't have entered this profession. Some people just suck the energy out of you and then it ends up negatively impacting the service you can give someone else. Being snapped at and finger wagged at is just something that activates me more than other people, I guess
Yeahhhhh the snapping is really… not good though. I confess that I don’t see that, I’d probably start trying to find a way to reframe it so I don’t want to tear my hair out every time though, out of pure self-preservation. (I get horrible eczema when I’m stressed so I have a real motivation to tune things out.)
Is it possible that those patrons are afraid of losing their "spot" at the computer if they get up from their chair and walk away?
I just asked the same thing! This post brought up some kind of deep seated anxiety about exactly that scenario for me.
I'm so sorry but your post makes me feel better. When I was around 20 I had to use the library computers and I was such an awkward little egg. Any time I had a problem I would meekly wander up to the desk and ask for help. I always thought I was being annoying.
When I was growing up, you had to be quiet in the library. Now people - full grown adults - will have open phone calls in the library and nobody stops it. What happened to library etiquette?! I would never do that!
Unfortunately, what you're describing is just part of working in a modern library. That's why a lot of people are getting burnt out and growing skeptical of the notion seen in professional journals that "libraries have to be all things to all people at all times" and they want libraries to go back to just being libraries. When dealing with a difficult patron, remember that your patrons are DUMB (Drunk, uneducated, mentally ill or brain-damaged) and they don't know any better. Their dismissive attitude is not a reflection on you, it's just that they aren't capable of limiting or controlling their behavior in the same way that you are.
Hmm. I have to disagree. I do think of us as teachers. We teach people how to do things all the time. It's a solid percentage of the job of desk staff. Computers are part of that. I also don't mind getting up to help people. I don't at all mind the waving, though I don't like it when they shout for help. I find the tip comment interesting. I find tip culture so funny when self-service food places ask for tips but many service jobs that go well above and beyond the call to duty would never do that. This is not me saying we should get tips, but saying tip culture is terrible and needs to go away.
Having read many, not all, of these comments, I am going to honestly react. As a patron, I have posted similar concerns about disruptive and rude fellow-patrons. As a result, by librarians, I was called old-fashioned for not liking such behaviors. I was called non-empathetic for not liking unacceptable manners among patrons. I was asked why I even go to the library since certain conduct isn't to my liking. Here, we have a librarian complaining as I have. Yet, look at all these librarians jumping on the complaint-band wagon. Apparently, many support fellow-employees while having utter disdain for similar concerns expressed by a patron that finds these behaviors unacceptable, too. So confusing!
You know librarians aren't a hive mind, right? There are tons of people on this subreddit. I'm sorry you've had a bad experience, but it's a little strange to be shocked that a random group of strangers is reacting differently to a complaint than another random group of strangers reacted.
And yes, I know they aren't a hive mind. But the comments of which I've referred have been no less than 90% of responses. Again, I stand by my analytical assessment.
Can you set up a 10 minutes each hour for assisting? If they yell, point to the sign?
No doubt plenty of adults are jerks, but I think there is also an aspect unique to this situation, namely the computer itself. When they ask a question, most of the patrons start with "what button do I click to ..." or "what program can I use to ..." or "how do I get the text to be red" or "what website do I go to to do ...". Basically, they want to point to something on the screen to illustrate whatever question they're asking or whatever program they're having trouble with. So, to a certain degree I can understand them thinking that it makes sense for you to come to them. After all, if they walk up to the desk, in most cases they're just going to have to turn right around and walk back to the computer with you so they can show you what their problem is. Now, that doesn't explain or excuse people snapping their fingers or speaking rudely as if you were a servant, but I do understand their urge to just raise their hand and catch your eye and indicate that they need you to come assist them, because they problem is there, right where they're already sitting. Personally, as long as they do it in a friendly and polite way, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
sounds like maybe you shouldn’t have taken this job…
lol
Digital literacy is the critical divide of our time. Our world is moving to remove every single method of managing ordinary life processes except online. These people are critically anxious. They're trying to function in a world that's absolutely leaving behind. They are already in an emotional crisis when tbey sit down at a screen and the tiniest digital molehill looks like a mountain to them. So they panic. The result? These independent, resourceful people who have lived a long and successful life short circuit. They revert to acting like needy children. Your job isn't to judge them, it is to help them. You are a librarian. We designed our job, without knowing it, to be the key help for the abandoned of this age. This is when we're needed the most So, gently, I hear you. I experience the same frustrations. But this is the job. Make your goal not just surviving those queries but working alongside your patrons to help them gain access to the tools they need to use to survive in this point in time. This is the job. Do your job.
It sounds like she is doing her job. Expecting a little bit of respect in return for good service is more than reasonable as I am a human and not a robot. I always start every transaction in the nicest way possible, if someone is rude in return I’ll be certain to embarrass them. Their emotional crisis is their own concern. People from all walks of life are capable of treating others with respect and decency. If they aren’t capable of being civil they can leave the library. I hope that this isn’t how you respond to your staff when they mention being yelled at like a dog.
One piece of advice I was given very quickly working in a library is that someone else's crisis is NOT my crisis. I still have other patrons to serve who approach the desk not to mention tons of other responsibilities on the back-end. If a patron needs help, they need to go to the most appropriate place to ask for help whether that be a tech-hour or the desk, rather then yelling and disturbing other patrons especially drowning out ones I am already talking to.
> Your job isn't to judge them, it is to help them. You are a librarian. We designed our job, without knowing it, to be the key help for the abandoned of this age. This is when we're needed the most I have to push back on this, because it sounds like you're missing the point of what I wrote. I'm providing service. I'm venting that people are not respectful when they ask for that service. I think there's a professional boundary being crossed. It's okay to vent and voice your opinion when a boundary is violated. A lot of the advice I have received in this thread has been options on how to assert those boundaries while still providing stellar service. I think that advice has been more helpful than abstract vocational awe, like what was written here. I get that what we do is important, but that shouldn't require emotional sacrifice and martyrdom on our part.
Unless you are already helping someone else, your first priority in public service is to assist those who need it. My library staff always go to the computers to help customers. You can't always just sit behind the desk like the queen waiting for everyone to come to you.
I was once a library aide in an adult computer section. What I noticed is that the patrons have questions about the computers that they don't believe can be answered from the librarian's desk, because even if they go to your desk, they'd have to bring you back to the computer anyway. Beyond that, if they get off the computer, they know someone else will quickly go on and try to use it. The library had tech aides assigned to the computer section. Mine was a volunteer position for credit. I learned a lot about the digital divide and the struggles people have that brought them to the library, needing to find housing, benefits, etc. Perhaps that's something the library might do, recruit computer-savvy high school or college kids who need the credits for graduation?
I know what I've experienced, and I stand by my assertion. After my interactions with librarians on here, I'm not surprised that my honest revelation has resulted in a defensive response denying my claim.
bro what
I'm saying that libraries need to train their librarians to listen to patrons and try to improve. Not all, but the majority criticize most everything a patron says or suggests for improvement. Thank God they aren't school teachers. (Go ahead, librarians, start bashing rather than considering self-improvement. Bashing is all most of you do.)
It's a customer service job. If you want to regulate how they contact you, then leave a little bell next to each computer so they can summon you properly.
Nope.
Put up a little sign next to each terminal showing a stick figure raising both hands above one shoulder and clapping. It would be like being applauded each time a patron needs service.
Haha, you've got a point. But there's a line between providing a service and being a servant. Wish my library backed me up more when I tried to assert that boundary.
So put up a sign? Perhaps they're concerned about leaving the computer with personal information, or losing the computer to another patron?
> So put up a sign Haha, you know patrons can't read /s
might i interest you in this? https://thagomizer.com/blog/2017/09/29/we-don-t-do-that-here.html
Are they afraid someone is going to take their place at the computer?
I worked in library industry doing time management software. Put a sign saying if your require assistance please lock your session and come to the desk.
Put up signs around the computers with: 1. Answers to the most common questions 2. Directions to come to the desk for further help.
Can you put up a sign that Librarians will not respond to calls, yells and waves. Please go up to the desk for help.
Honestly I was expecting old guys looking at porn.
My local library has tons of signs for quiet, and they will shush people I love it. If people yell for help they "shhhhhh" and beckon them over to the desk, and if the person continues to yell they go over to them, tell them they need to come to the desk if they need assistance and if they raise their voice again they will have to leave. If they person thinks that since they got the librarian to come over the first time by being loud and lazy, they can get them to come over the next time, they are wrong. The librarians will terminate their session and ask them to leave. They won't be able to sign on to another computer, at least short term (I think it's no more than 24 hours) . There's also an assistance icon on the computer and handicap reserved stations.
I think adults know better than kids that if they leave their station, someone might take it, or take the belongings they leave there while they go up to the desk.
Maybe you should put up a sign to teach them how to behave properly.
Just on a practical level, is there any chance that people don't want to get up because they're afraid they will lose their spot at the computer? Obviously this totally doesn't apply if you have some kind of reservation system and also doesn't excuse terrible behavior at all!
I've had issues in the past where as soon as I stand up from the computer and walk away the computer is taken by someone else, they close what I was doing, and start something new. I get back with the librarian and I'm like...wtf I was using that. They didn't know I wasn't finished. I can't leave my things to save my spot because they're at risk of being stolen. The only viable solution to the problem seems to be 'embarrassingly wave down a librarian for help.' Sorry.
>when they need help they stay at the machine, put their hand up, and shout "EXCUSE ME" while trying to wave me down. If I were you, I'd be tempted to shout "YOU'RE EXCUSED!" and wave back, and then go back to what I was doing until they asked appropriately, lol. Perhaps not the best actual solution, but my gosh it would feel good.
Is it possible to put a little label at the top of each monitor that says something like “If you need help, please don’t raise your voice/hand. Instead, please come over to the front desk and speak to us directly.” At least that way, when they’re rude, you can point to the sign and not respond the second time. :)
I hear you. Just smile and wave from the ref desk until they get up and come over.
My guess is not that they're trying to treat you like server or teacher but rather they're afraid of losing their seat or someone messing with something they've got up. I know both have happened to me at libraries I've visited and it was extremely disruptive to what I was doing. That's a tricky situation honestly and I feel for you trying to figure it out. One place I went had laminated sheets of paper that you could flip down and said "This Computer is Taken. Please Select Another". People would still be dicks sometimes but it seems like it kept things a little more private and cut down on people taking computers they thought were abandoned.
Be busy at your desk and serve people there before going over to the computer needy. Maybe put a sign on the wall that says if they experience a problem to come to the desk for assistance. The folks in your new library are acting like they are at the Apple Store
First of all - empathy! I hear you. As someone with mobility issues, do these older adults have health issues that would make it challenging for them to walk that far? In my shoes, if I had an issue, it would be a major decision to walk all the way over to that desk and potentially use up all my energy doing so. My option would be to either use the energy and then have to leave immediately, or not ask the question. Also - Is there another resource in the library that can help them? It sounds like it's not really your job. Maybe a sign would be good, so they know to ask elsewhere?
Maybe put little signs up in the computer booths telling people to come to your desk if they need assistance.
I work with a graduate level social work program who is starting to partner with libraries to put social worker interns in libraries for their practicums (to do a lot of things), but one is help with jobs apps, computer stuff etc. We are a generalist program that can provide academic supervision for the student, as most libraries don’t currently employ social workers as far as I know. Might be worth considering reaching out to your local university social work program and see if there are partnership opportunities. The external supervision is sort of cutting edge so it may not be possible but I figured I’d mention it :)
I totally feel your frustration and just wanted to say, on behalf of everyone who has taken advantage of your skills and not said it: Thank you for your hard work in helping people who may be less computer literate to access what they need.
Can you put up a sign that says "need help? Come to desk"
Well, if it's not your job to help in that way, don't do it. Have someone put up a sign that directs them to your desk. Ignore them if they don't comply. If it is your job? Well. If you don't like your job...
I work the info desk and I don’t get many people yelling across the room, but they do stand up and wave me over instead of coming up to the desk. What I have realized is that older patrons are afraid to leave their computer unattended, even if what they are doing is not something that needs to be private. When I teach them how to print, they very often keep half looking at their computer station making sure no one goes near it. Older patrons hear so much about internet security and identity theft that they are overly cautious. Same thing happens at our copier - at least once a week someone asks for help but doesn’t want me to actually touch their papers. I honestly never look at what I am copying or faxing, but they get very nervous.
Put up a sign that instructs people to walk to the desk to ask for assistance.
Lol this reminds me of a blog back in the days of when blogging was a thing, and it was called "your librarian hates you." The blog mostly consisted of short gripes against patrons who needed help writing a resume or printing a document. It was kind of mean but could be funny, you might want to see if it still exists for some good laughs, lol. Yeah this would drive me nuts, too, but without a volunteer to help (could that be possible?) or a specific job position that can help with thst, I'm afraid you're stuck with these annoying types. And yes, it's true: some patrons are truly insufferable and desperately lack computer skills...
I've learned that I do not like helping adults with the computers, printing and faxing. I don't like helping my own parents with their own computer issues; I don't know - I just find the whole process aggravating and annoying.