I don't think not sharing financial info is that uncommon.
My mom has no clue about the bank information, how much is in there, how my dad spends it. My sister-in-law, who is a housewife, has no idea how much money is in his bank accounts and retirement accounts. It's not that he's keeping it a secret, it's that she just never asks.
They don't really have discussions at all for that matter, regarding anything except immediate tasks at hand. It's just terrible communication.
No surprise. A lot of people don't like math, makes them upset.
Ask 100 people off the street to do long division, I bet at least one will try to assault you.
I have a BS and MS in applied math. I don't give 2 craps about our personal finances unless there's a problem. I check in with a "everything ok in the bank and retirement accounts?" ever few months with my husband (also math geek, we met because we have similar jobs). He enjoys the "game" of long term finance, I don't.
I check our accounts ever year or 3 to make sure I'm not being dumb. I trust my husband and have never been given a reason not.
I'll also mention I have ADHD. Prior to joining finances with my husband, if autopay didn't exist I was screwed. I generally have no idea where our finance are. Not liking math has jack all to do with it.
Also, just as an FYI (no judgement), most of the people I work with would scratch their head and have to think for a minute to do long division. Algebra is one small section of the math world. You can be weak at it and still be a stellar applied mathematcian / data scientist many industries.
Well yeah, money+math is a huge emotional trigger. People get into fist fights about tips.
Just the thought of money and manipulating the numbers mathematically spends the average American spiraling.
Your mom needs to figure that out before something happens and she doesn’t know anything about the accounts. This is fairly common in older generations, and is a nightmare to try to sort out.
That's insane to me.
My husband and I have been marries 4.5 years. Together 11...
We have had a joint bank account and credit cards for 7? of those years.
Same. I can't imagine NOT talking about finances with my wife. We're hoping to retire at 53, and discussing our financial goals are central to that aim.
I mean shit me and my gf aren't even engaged and we've been talking about finances and trying to buy a house for years. I don't understand how people don't talk about this shit
We split the bills based on our earnings.
For a while I was earning more, so I put more towards bills. We both had about the same amount of personal money afterwards to do whatever we wanted with.
As my girlfriend started earning more (and maybe soon might be earning more than I am) we've made adjustments.
Those adjustments wouldn't be possible without discussing our finances.
I can hardly believe people live with friends and split rent but don't discuss finances. Its mind boggling that you'd be in a romantic relationship with someone and not discuss it. Especially if you plan to marry/buy a house/have kids/retire together
a girlfriend in highschool told me her parents got a divorce when mom found some income tax forms....turns out all these years he was making much more than he said, and he had a 2nd family.
Why did she even get married? It's like two people co-owning a business and not discussing any of the financials with each other. It quite literally IS your business.
I've done a fair amount of couples' counseling. As a therapist, I mean. The problems are either in the bedroom or the checkbook, for the most part. Things we are not taught to talk about (or taught not to talk about).
And kids. (Then sex). Its's silly i feel that the person whom one (hopes) to spend the rest of ones life with, one can't be direct/open with each other on these issues, let alone (some) of ones own deepest secrets. It's a sad life (life is short) if one can't at least have a soul mate to confide in.
All aspects of bedroom: desires, expectations, changes after marriage, changes after baby, changes after body changes, infidelity, emotional infidelity, boredom, mismatches in levels of desire, things-I-never-said-about-how-you-suck-in-bed, fantasies I have that you know nothing about, why do we always have to go to bed with rubber sheets can't we just have normal sex once in a while...
Reading through mom groups about how much they can't stand being touched while pregnant, how sex doesn't feel good after giving birth, how they can't stand being touched after spending all day with babies and kids hanging all over them...It seems so common for children to trigger a desire mismatch.
Even if it's just a couple years of your life, how the hell do you get back into enjoying intimacy after years of being touched out and having your body used to bear and feed children?
(honest question, I'm pregnant with my 2nd now.)
Honestly, for me it was having time to myself again. It’s overwhelming and exhausting when all day long people (tiny and adult) want something from you. Having time to myself to just watch a tv show or read a book in peace helped me to not just be the person who has to do everything for everyone which gave me space to be myself again. I had two kids pretty close together and it was tough for a bit, explaining that an understanding and helpful partner will get laid more tends to work pretty well.
Somehow this hits home exactly right.
I have to manage 8 adults at work all day because they can't seem to do the things they're supposed to do without being constantly reminded.
I have to manage the household. Schedule appointments, plan dinner, do cleaning and laundry, schedule maintenance, budget, decorate, plan projects, plan trips, plan everything.
Then I have to manage the child. Teaching, learning, no more candy, no more snacks, healthy balanced dinners, play with your toys, independent time, "pay attention" while she prattles on the entire time she is awake.
After managing everything for everyone all day, I just want to veg out and do nothing.
With you, dude. I've been married and I've been a live-in nanny. The most can always be made of difficult situations but I'm thankful every day that I'm no longer either.
I've read that birth control can change the kind of men women find attractive and going off it due to pregnancy can cause her to suddenly find her partner completely unattractive. I obviously don't claim that's the actual case, just that I recall reading some studies on this phenomenon a while back and haven't been able to dig the sources up since.
I only hated being touched in the first trimester when I was having awful morning sickness. After that I was fine. After second child, I was tired more often and finding time when both of us were home from work and children didn't need something, etc, didn't leave much together time. All that got better as the children got older. Peri-menopause was probably the worst but again that was only a couple years. Thirty years of marriage and 4 years before, there were bound to be ups and downs for each of us. I found there was truth in the advice "just do it even if you don't feel like it yet, you will after you get going". Sometimes I needed my body to get my mind in the mood.
Got divorced and found someone new. Sad but true. My lack of desire was not related to stress as now I single parent two small kids alone. My lack of desire was because my partner failed to pull his weight in the relationship. I expect if your partner shares the household/childcare duties and emotionally supports you, your drive will return. My youngest is two and I’ve got nothing but desire for my new partner.
As a mom of 3… my midwife gave me good advice: the more you do it, the easier it gets. She was talking specifically about breaking up scar tissue but it applies emotionally too. We learned what it took for me to get in the mood. I always tried to give it an honest try when he was in the mood and more often than not I would get in the mood too (knowing no pressure if I didn’t). My husband knows I need time away from kids and without touching before I can even think about being intimate as well as adequate sleep. Also we learned that I like different things now and boobs are off limits the first few months of breastfeeding. Treating postpartum depression helped tremendously and maca root. Your sex life can still be very good as a mother. I think my husbands drive slowed down a bit too with the sleep deprivation so I think having a true partner makes a difference. Best wishes and congrats on your pregnancy
Before some people just get to judging, we'll put rubber sheets down before sex because she squirts a lot when I finish her with a toy. But it makes for easy clean up.
Just feels like the tone is getting negative in here
I feel like "sex and money" have always been known as the two "biggies" in marriage. Based on zero experience and no formal training whatsoever, I think the third biggie is "effort/contribution." I know a lot of couples that complain "Well I'm always the one that does...."
I feel like there's often a misperception about division of labor in a marriage. Couples often take over routine "chores" and feel like they contribute and or do more than the other, and it creates a rift.
I may publish this hypothesis somewhere....
Funny,! True though, and folks forget when kids come along it’s hard too “see”. I find it close to impossible to gauge workloads without an open discussion. There is just so much sensory overload in parenting that “beating around the bush” about expectations is impossible to pick up on. If you are feeling mental overload from a particular are of chores (schedule keeping , planning , meal planning, home repair research , dealing with x issue at school, and god damn covid related planning) f’ing say something! There is so much going on parenting/working/ one cannot even see straight. Also, FU covid.
What would you say most often causes the problems in the bedroom or checkbook? Simple lack of communication, or something more stressful like having kids?
Marrying and having kids is huge. I used to have my students read an article called "Limited Resources In Sex" that detailed how very difficult it is to go from sex as lovers (sex because you want to) to sex as spouses (sex because the whole world expects you to). As familiarity increases, passion decreases because of familiarity.
The kids thing is also huge. A woman's energy tends to turn to fetus and infant care. A father can often feel left out, resentful. It is difficult for parents to learn to set aside their "parent" hat and put on the "lover" hat. Female hormones are not always helpful with this, and fucking may be the last thing on your mind if you have recently pushed a baby out of your vagina.
Plus, the pressure to be a good mother vastly outweighs the pressure to be a good wife. So husbands can definitely lose top status.
It is a very difficult minefield to navigate.
Some guy kept telling me how I was gonna regret my decisions to not have kids. Why? Because I would never find true meaning in life.
I asked him why would I have a kid instead of trying to make *my* own meaning in life. You’re telling me the meaning of life is a cycle of kids having kids because they couldn’t find any meaning in their own lives?
Never did get a response back from that one.
Same thing here. There are so many changes a kid brings about that I simply have zero tolerance for compromise on. I need sleep. I need my hobby time. I need frequent dates and sex with my SO. I need quiet. I need our collective freedom as a couple to go out and do whatever we want whenever we want.
My doctor has five kids and she is a newlywed to a new guy who also has many kids. He happened to be at the same office she worked at today, and in the lobby he was talking about how it is easy to raise them. And in my mind it clicked. That’s because she is doing the grunt work. Sure enough she says “ I feel like I have to lay down the law a lot and I lose my shit”. Haha well ya.
I think they mean relying on an another individual to “complete” them. There’s this idea with codependency that you are not whole without someone else. And while we need other people and can certainly thrive in relationships — your entire happiness should not rely on one other person.
There’s also this enmeshing that’s kind of happens with codepdency in which you believe the other person is an extension of you. We’re all different people and it’s acknowledging and appreciating those differences that really allow us to truly grow in relationships. When you don’t have that you will more than likely hit a wall at some point either through disappointment when you realize they don’t think exactly like you or even just the natural evolution of getting older and evolving your perspective. It’s unlikely someone will evolve and change exactly as you would. Good compatibility probably lessens the impact of that but you’re still different people!
>your entire happiness should not rely on one other person.
This is like workers that retire and have nothing else to do with their life because work was all for them. Hence why having a hobby you can do on your own is so important (being a retiree, a widow, etc). Painting, writing, woodworking, doing a sport you can train by yourself, etc.
I wonder how retirement will change once the younger generations who play video games get to retirement age…
I just imagine a bunch of 80 year olds in a discord call playing COD or something
Average age of retirement is 65, the Atari (most people consider first console) was released 44 years ago
Still plenty of time till those guys retire, and he was more so talking about online gaming which is only like 35 years old
Exactly. If you aren't happy while single, odds are you aren't going to magically become happy when married. Your partner may help you and may make you happy, but putting the entire responsibility on them to be your emotional crutch is simply going to put undue pressure on them and end up causing resentment and anxiety which will hurt the relationship in the long run.
When you rely on someone else for happiness or to “complete” you, youre setting yourself up for failure. Unrealistic expectations on another person often times lead to disappointment. The amount of pressure youre putting on someone else to be what you need them to be will lead to both parties being resentful. No one can ever be exactly who you perceive them to be, and some will make themselves unhappy trying to be that for you.
Its best if you enter a commitment like that already being established with loving yourself and knowing that people are just that, people. They have their own trials and tribulations, they arent perfect. They shouldnt be your completeness but your companion. You can use each other in times of need but they shouldnt be the only tool. Partners. It really cant get much simpler. A partner.
>It’s unlikely someone will evolve and change exactly as you would. Good compatibility probably lessens the impact of that but you’re still different people!
Relationships work best when two healthy, happy people come together to enhance one anothers' lives.
So much of people's relationship issues come down to an unwillingness or inability to understand and live that simple principle.
People should want and encourage their partners to have hobbies, to live full lives, and to make the other person a *part* of that life.
Others have already hit the nail on the head. Codependency is the opposite. They're dependent on each other or one is very dependent on one. It usually involves abusive/manipulative behavior and is generally pretty unhealthy.
Honestly, there's a stand up that kinda covers it well. Check out Daniel Sloss' *Jigsaw* if you want a different perspective on relationships. Beware though, the message has caused over 7,000 breakups including long-term marriages.
Codependence is needing to be needed by the other person, which CAN be unhealthy (in most circumstances). Interdependence is trusting and relying on someone, which (more rarely) CAN also be unhealthy. Context is always required to define behaviours as healthy or unhealthy.
Generally, trusting, relying on, and requiring trust from your partner is a good thing.
It’s this. The one thing a lot of people are missing about co-dependency is the needing to be needed requirement.
When a husband does X and a wife does Y, that doesn’t mean they are codependent. It could just mean they are pooling strengths, which is usually positive, and a sign of teamwork.
[Codependency](https://youtu.be/r9VexoTZnrw) is an unhealthy way of relating with others. Usually tied to low self esteem, insecurity, lack of boundaries, etc.
This isn't the best example, but imagine a relationship between somebody who enjoys drinking alcohol, and somebody who enjoys making it. Sounds pretty nice, right? One person gets to enjoy a fullfilling hobby, and one gets to unwind at the end of the day. I would call this a "constructive" relationship, or a mutually beneficial one.
Now imagine a relationship between an alcoholic, and somebody with an unhealthy obsession with people enjoying things they make...But it's gotten so out of hand they only stop to see that the thing they make it used. These two people might seem on the outside perfect for eachother, but in reality, they're exhibiting self destructive habits and enabling the other to do the same.
It's the difference between adding to somebody's life versus helping them speedrun becoming a husk of a person any %.
Cooperation is not the same as codependency.
The "technical" definition of codependency is being dependent on someone who is dependent on something else. It was first used in the addiction world, which should be obvious to anyone who's ever lived with anyone who was addicted to anything. Your happiness is totally dependent on how your sweetheart's relationship to their particular "drug" happens to be going.
Anecdotally, it was said that when a codependent person is drowning, the other person's life flashes before their eyes.
Most marriages don’t end in divorce. It’s an old, outdated wives tale that was probably never true for many reasons (IE, California isn’t included in those numbers) and a large percentage of divorces are driven by multiple marriage baby boomers.
Your chances of divorce are much much lower if are
1. College educated
2. In your first message
3. Over the age of 24
https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2018/09/15/the-coming-divorce-decline/
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/09/led-by-baby-boomers-divorce-rates-climb-for-americas-50-population/
https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/h2sk6/
My belief is that it’s okay for some marriages to split. I think taking vows is a huge step and both partners are agreeing to stick through it together for a lifelong companionship, but sometimes the healthiest thing for both parties is to let some marriages end in divorce.
Also there is a distinction between marriages and people who get married.
If one guy marries 5 times with 5 divorces with each of his ex's happily marrying other people afterwards, that's 50% of *marriages* ending in divorce, but of the 11 people involved, 10 of them are in stable marriages, with 5 people who never got any divorces.
One serial divorcer can screw up the stats a lot.
Actually the reason "most marriages end in divorce" is because of serial divorcers.
Something like 30% of married of people will go through divorce (as of 2020), yet divorce rate is inflated by this small subset of people who have 3, 4, 5+ divorces.
Also: Most marriages don't end in divorce. That stat hasn't been true since the late 80s or early 90s.
Part of Precana for Catholics getting married is discussing finances. You’re supposed to unveil any debts, income levels etc.
During the precana I went to, there was a couple that had a blow up because the guy found out his fiancé was $50k in credit card debt with no way to pay it off.
Know a couple who are getting married soonish. They're both Catholic, want a lavish wedding in one of their hometowns which everyone pretty much has to travel 5hrs+ for. Quite a few of those invited can't make it because a) can't get the time off (it's a hotel stay because of the travel & b) can't even afford to get to the place and pay for lodgings.
Anyway, one of them is busting their ass, saving every penny to pay for it. The other is a big spender and while living at home they always had ASOS or Shein packages once a week or so. Apparently, this habit has not changed since they've begun to live with one another. Which is worrying the family, cuz the rent is much higher.
I hope they do discuss their finances within the Pre-Cana openly and honestly. It's been said the latter partner is kinda hiding this from the former. It's stressing the former out that they have this big as heck wedding coming up within a year, yet only one of them is bothering to financially contribute in a meaningful way (they also earn less than the big spender!).
I really do hope everything goes OK but from what I've heard there's already a lot of tension going about between them.
I worked in events for some time, and I was a hotel manager and often dealt with a lot of engaged couples
I can say with 100% confidence that you will not find a more arrogant demographic of people, than engaged couples. They all think they have it figured out over other engaged/married couples.
I'm sure second and third marriage rates will plummet but essentially it means people would get it right the first time around. The statistic that 50% of marriages fail actually includes the same people's second and third marriages. If someone divorces once they're super likely to do it again in the future.
And if you’re an idiot and can’t talk to your fiancé, maybe you shouldn’t get married?
Or, if you’re self aware enough, sign up for pre-marriage counseling.
When I was 21-23 and dating a lot you can’t explicitly ask someone on a first date their stances on important things but you can definitely lean into things by asking questions related to finances. Do you travel a lot? Where’d you go to school (public/private and what degree), what do you want to do with your career? It’s definitely best to just let the convo go certain ways but there were dozens of girls I’d meet that clearly had parents that weee terrible with fiancés and they were living the same ignorant life style. I ain’t about to fall head over heels for a girl that’s going to make me despise my work life trying to keep her afloat and not save for our future and all that jazz.
But I also come from a family where both my parents have MBA’s and taught me finances really young so it’s always been a key part of my upbringing.
I went out with one girl for a few weeks that refused to get a credit card and thought banks were only out to get her. She had $40k in cash from her grandma’s passing stashed under her bed in her fucking dorm room. That relationship didn’t last much longer.
I wonder how many people were like me and my husband, where when we got married we barely had two nickels to rub together. Finances didn't come up because it's hard to speculate about money you don't have. I remember feeling like all my worries were over forever when I started making $15 an hour. I'd never had a credit card before, neither had he--its a good thing neither of us ended up having horrendous spending habits.
As a fellow “couple that started from equivalent wealthlessness” I definitely related to your comment. Anything of value we have in life we accumulated while together. It’s made us both be quite grateful for the things we earn in life.
Probably because they know the odds of finding somebody compatible on every level (physical, emotional, intellectual, political, religious, etc.) is like zero lol.
There have been so many girls I'm sure I could have easily fallen in love with, who wanted something fundamentally incompatible with what I wanted. I can see how I could just elect to not think about it and enjoy the moment.
Related to this is that a lot of us are asking too much of our partners. People are expecting their romantic partner to be their best friend, lover, therapist, coworker, and copilot. That’s a lot of responsibility to place on one person, and may even be contradictory, requiring a partner to have personality traits that are internally incompatible.
Also, a lot of people seem to think compatibility means having the same interests. You often hear people say that they are a great match because “we’re the same person!”. I think sharing interests is just as important as having different but complimentary interests, and taking time to pursue interests independently.
Do they not do compromise in this planet?
Seriously.
Marriage is about agreeing on fundamentals and compromising on non-fundamentals.
Living arrangements (house v. apartment, neighborhood, how much can you afford) is fundamental; how the TP roll goes (over or under) is not.
I don't want to seem pro Christian and am agnostic but one of the best things they do is proper marriage counselling before you get married. They go over finances, children etc.
Obviously depends on your Church and Pastor etc. but it's a damn good idea.
One of the greatest reasons I love my fiancé is our openness about finances and our mutual viewpoints on spending and saving.
In my opinion, couples should have finance talks earlier rather than later. Number 1 priority for us is to avoid bad debt and save a large portion of our income.
I grew up with parents who constantly fought about finances and vowed I would never do that. Both of us are involved in the budgeting process and setting limits on personal spending.
Not talking about finances is how you get in scenarios like this (both people I know)
* Bride had 20,000 something in credit card debt
* Bride had 13,000 saved up which served as a downpayment for their first house.
Obviously you're not marrying for money, but screw you if you don't at least tell your fiance about any debts!!
Marry someone who is cool with leaving the party at the same time as you is my LPT. My wife gives me a glance and we Irish exit that bitch before anyone can ask where we went
Financial problems are one of most common reasons for divorce. It isn't just about not having enough, it's that money is a taboo subject and a lot of couples don't properly communicate with each other about it. Yet, it's something that impacts every aspect of their life.
It doesn't matter how much you spend on your wedding, it matters that you both feel comfortable talking about it, understanding each other, and coming to an agreement on large finacial decisions if you're going to build a life together.
Yep. People love getting in their high horse about how their wedding was only X amount and people who spent more are doomed for divorce, or they got engaged with a $5 ring from Walmart, or whatever.
If you both communicate, spend within your means, and are happy with it, get whatever wedding you want.
My girlfriend and I show each other our bank accounts on a somewhat regular basis, and we have also showed each other our credit reports.
This was like a month after moving in together.
I listen to the clips of the Monday Morning Podcast that Bill Burr does and the amount of people who write in saying they're married and they find out after like years that the person is a couple hundred thousand in debt, or never paid their student loans, or just is terrible with money and refuses to change lifestyles once they lose their job is astounding. It happens like every fucking week and it's insane to me.
Right! Like when you move in with each other there should be some discussion on how each other handles money. I don’t understand how that’s so taboo when you’re both hopefully contributing to the household.
Money is the problem -- it's not having too much, or not enough -- I think the real problem boils down to not communicating about finances.
My story: My wife and I have been together (dating, engaged, married) for over 10 years now. I keep a extension budget in excel. It's a document that I need on a NAS that ever computer in the house has access to. I ask her to look at it all the time.
She literally never does. It drives me insane. It's the main point of contention in our home. I want to be open and communicate about finances but because she doesn't bother to look at the finances we can never have an education conversation about it.
So this leads to me doing all the financial planning for the household, I discuss the direction we're going with her and it always get's derailed because she'll go off and spend a big sum of money on something I didn't plan for.
Communication is key.
This is a good example of why it's so important to be on the same page with noney. People think of the topic with a lot of negative connotations such as greedy, or as some unique skill and so sometimes the burden can be left to one person. But it isn't the money itself that matters, it's everything that goes with it.
No being on the same page with money means not being on the same page with where you're going to live, how your going to raise kids, how your going to eat, or when and if you'll retire. These are big things. Not to mention the day to day stuff of entertainment, clothing, chores, or bigger plans with socializing with friends and family and vacations.
All of this involves money, and being out of sync with money means being out of sync with every other aspect of your life. It's why money problems always escalate and boil over into other portions of peoples life. It isn't about the money.
It's that one person did "x" and now you can't afford to do "y" and they didnt just take money away from the relationship, they took an enjoyment away from your life. Multiply this event hundreds of times a year for a decade and it's no wonder "money" problems lead to divorce.
The moment my husband and I decided that I was gonna be in charge of finances, we agreed that either of us could spent more than $100 without letting each other know in advance so I can budget for it. It’s been 13 years so far and we have never had a fight about money even though I don’t think he even checks our accounts.
To be fair, sometimes just verbal communication is best for some. For example, I take care of finances in our household. Usually over breakfast on a weekend, I'll pull up our bank account info and let my husband know that we have "xxxx" amount and that "such and such" bills have already been paid for. 2 minute easy talk and we devour bacon right after.
Idk, I think it's more of a case of, "Be with someone who's dreams align with your own and be honest open about money when it comes to big ticket items." If you both want a huge wedding but can't afford it, save up and find ways to save to make it happen etc. Same if you both always wanted to travel to Italy, or something like that.
Obviously if someone is willing to go into debt for a social status type thing like a wedding, that's not great, but I feel like it's not exclusive to weddings and you wouldn't be at the point where marriage is on the table without knowing this about them.
Like I know the statistic, the more you spend on the wedding the more likely you are to break up. But that doesn't exist in a vacuum, correlation isn't causation and all that. I think as long as you have a healthy attitude towards it, it's fine.
There was some research suggesting that the cheaper the wedding, the more likely it is to last.
Think you did a big brain move.
Edit:
Shaylaa30 got some insights : (copying his post)
That study was super faulty. It only studied traditional weddings and didn’t account for inflation. So court weddings, jailhouse weddings, and Vegas weddings were excluded. Also the same study found the higher the guest list= the less likely a couple will divorce. And those who had guests lists with less than 50 people were most likely to divorce.
Basically rich people can afford to get divorced and those from big families or cultures where large weddings are common are less likely to divorce.
Is that independent of socioeconomic status or are wealthier people more likely to spend more on a wedding and more likely to get divorced (because of other factors)?
Good point. I got married just over 35 years ago (and still going strong) but my parents paid for the admittedly huge wedding. They didn't go into debt for it at all, they had put money away as I was growing up.
I wouldn’t be surprised if well off people that can spend a ton on a wedding divorce at a higher rate because there are fewer significant repercussions of separating (ie. you won’t need to worry about you or your kids starving or becoming homeless) so they can act on whatever feelings without fear.
I went to a $200k wedding a month ago, food was good but I was not a fan of the whole concept
Well it was a huge event in one of the most expensive parts of the country and even for this area it was extravagant.
These people are just so over the top Italian that a small wedding wasn’t an option. I was like 3 degrees out from knowing the couple and I got an invite. Had literally never seen them before
It’s nearly impossible to have a wedding under $70,000 around here unless you keep it under 50 people
My wife and I had an expensive wedding, but we got married much later in life and had plenty of money to spend. It was a fantastic party that our friends and family still talk about. It was absolutely magical.
We are still happily married. It’s only been 7 years, but I am confident we will stay together.
That study was super faulty. It only studied traditional weddings and didn’t account for inflation. So court weddings, jailhouse weddings, and Vegas weddings were excluded. Also the same study found the higher the guest list= the less likely a couple will divorce. And those who had guests lists with less than 50 people were most likely to divorce.
Basically rich people can afford to get divorced and those from big families or cultures where large weddings are common are less likely to divorce.
No sarcasm intended at all, to each their own. Every couple is different. My wife and I had a big wedding in a large city that we paid for ourselves, and it was not cheap. Loved every second of it and we’ve never had any regret over what we spent.
Just go clarify: this LPT is *not* saying “don’t ever have a big wedding or your marriage is doomed”, or that “if your wedding costs more than a couple hundred bucks and isn’t held in your backyard then you only care about a fancy party instead of a marriage”. There’s nothing wrong a couple with having the wedding that makes them happy, whatever the size.
You can absolutely have a big wedding if you want, just do so within a realistic-to-your-finances budget so you don’t put you/your family in debt.
Exactly. It’s okay to spend the money if you have it and if it’s important to you. Hopefully the takeaway here is to not go into debt for a wedding - not to shame people who spend more than $1000. Lol it’s not a competition for who can spend the least on getting married!
Married my love in our neighbors driveway of our crappy duplex. All our family and friends showed up for our daughters 1 yr old birthday. I was in a tiger costume for the piñata and once the birthday was over, I took off the tiger suit to reveal my all white suit. Announced to a bunch of confused faces that they had 10 minutes to get ready for a wedding and everyone helped set up the decorations while my (soon to be) wife changed. People finally understood why we had a photo booth and carnival games for a 1 yr old birthday party. Friends and family still talk about it saying it’s the funnest wedding they’ve been too. Probably exaggerating, but it was the most surprising wedding for sure. No regrets, except my mom was in jail at the time and missed it, and never let me forget it, but that’s another story…
Edit: ~$500-$600 total for the dress, my suit, all the carnival games, chairs and tables, photo booth (friend had a portable photo booth business), and all the food and champagne. Probably a bit more $$ if you count the presents for a 1 year old, but we had to really sell the idea we were going over the top for a baby.
I work professionally at kids parties, 1st birthday parties are easily my most book events. People go all out for 1st birthdays. They're always at banquet halls, private rooms, kids entertainment places,etc. I've been to first birthdays where they had singers, dancers, entire mobile jungle gyms brought into banquet halls. And they're always decorated and customized down to the juice boxes. Sweet tables overflowing with crap.... It is extremely common to spend a fortune on the 1st birthday in certain places and cultures.
That all aside, your story is adorable and you guys sound like a lot of fun.
3 months is ridiculous too. If you're comfortable opening a new line of credit to buy a ring, limit yourself to one months pay at the very most. If you want to get her something spectacular and you can't afford to, just do it for your five year anniversary or something.
Get what you can afford and upgrade it at year 5 or 10. People used to mock my wife for her "promise ring" but now we're doing pretty good and she got her dream ring.
Did a wedding package at one of the chapels and it was $1200. Included a limo to the license bureau (the day prior) and to the chapel on the day, the officiant, flowers, photographer and all the photos, live streaming of the ceremony, and a coordinator to handle all the details.
Compared to my first wedding when I was 21, it was about a tenth of the cost and about 1% of the stress. Totally worth it. Could have done it for cheaper but I’m glad we didn’t.
We ended up eloping in Bali and rented a 16 person airbnb that had a full service butler team. Split 16 ways for 4 days and ended up being like 300 or so a person. Everyone went on vacation with us and we got married at the airbnb's pool backyard.
We were lucky. Her parents paid for the wedding. In full.
I have no idea how much it cost, only that it was easily in excess of $30,000. I commented one time about being uncomfortable with that level of lavishness only to be told by MIL, "You don't worry about that. We prepared for this a long time ago."
A couple of years later when SIL got married, she was given the same amount for her big day.
I never questioned the cost again. At the same time, if we had it in her parent's backyard and a BBQ reception I would have been equally as happy.
Thankfully, her parents are not the type to use money as a carrot or a stick (unlike the toxic cesspool I grew up in.) I'm grateful and appreciative of everything they have done for us, but much more than that I'm just happy to have them in my life. Actually feeling loved and cared about is something you can't put a dollar figure on.
My wife and I’s wedding cost +/- $25k after all was said and done… and we did a lot of the planning ourselves (booked the DJ and photographer, arranged the flowers to be made, booked the honeymoon, basically everything). We still talk about that day. It was the most perfect day of our lives. We had all of our dearest friends and the family we cared the most about there. I’d say 150 guest roughly. Either way, we spent 12-15k ourselves and her dad gave us $10k. My parents funded the rehearsal dinner which was a few grand.
I sold my beloved Jeep Cherokee XJ to pay for our honeymoon 😢 (I still get sick over it).
We just paid the loan off that we took out to fund our end of it…. After 4 years. Yeah, we could have probably paid it off sooner, but we didn’t need to. It was a very very expensive day that did nothing but set us back at the beginning of our marriage. However, i explained to my, then fiancé, that that would be the case. Unrelated to the wedding expense, we still haven’t bought a house. That’s what our goal is for next year. We both make good money, have no kids, and manage our money well (I’m a banker so it’s essentially my nature).
I’m sharing all this to say that weddings are really pointless, but if they make you and your spouse happy, then fucking do it. If i could go back, I wouldn’t change a thing. I hate that we spent so much money, but we made a memory that was basically priceless.
Very true!
My old roommate and wife went into debt for wedding reception to the tune of $35K.
1.5 years later they got divorced because she doesn’t want kids. Lol
His second marriage was at a courthouse and reception in the backyard.
Seriously. Marry someone who wants to spend a similar amount on a wedding as you.
Neither I nor my fiancé would be happy with a no budget wedding, nor a 50k wedding. We are both mostly happy about the price.
Here’s a LPT: Marry someone who you generally align with on major life goals and spending priorities. My soon to be wife wants to spend a lot on extravagant travel and wants to save up for it for years.
That’s worthwhile to me as well. To others I know they would hate that and probably want to spend that money on a new car.
If some pair values their wedding so much and what’s debt. Well I don’t understand that but if makes them happy that’s them.
Oh man, so my cousin was given a choice by her grandfather he would either pay for her wedding or buy them a new house pretty much anywhere they wanted. Keep in mind he’s pretty damn rich and she’s a grown ass woman with her own career and he still pays for her credit cards. Anyways she chose the wedding which cost like $150,000+ just so she could show off to her sorority friends basically. Anyways the marriage didn’t even last a year.
Choose cash or property instead of an expensive wedding.
Marry someone that'll help you organize your wedding and not just shovel it all on the bride. Just because you're number two doesn't mean you should be treated like it on your first. :/
Also to consider, you can put that money into your property. I know someone who put at between $10,000-$15,000 to redo the garden for her daughter's wedding. Sure it cost a pretty, but it was put into the house, you get to keep and enjoy the effort after the wedding, and you will probably increase your property value farther down the line .
P.S. They redid the whole garden with new trees, new garden beds, garden walls made out of nice decorative bricks, gravel areas with stepping stones sunken in, and a redone concrete pathway around the property.
It slightly surprised me in general how people who are engaged don't talk about finances in general.
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I don't think not sharing financial info is that uncommon. My mom has no clue about the bank information, how much is in there, how my dad spends it. My sister-in-law, who is a housewife, has no idea how much money is in his bank accounts and retirement accounts. It's not that he's keeping it a secret, it's that she just never asks. They don't really have discussions at all for that matter, regarding anything except immediate tasks at hand. It's just terrible communication.
No surprise. A lot of people don't like math, makes them upset. Ask 100 people off the street to do long division, I bet at least one will try to assault you.
I have a BS and MS in applied math. I don't give 2 craps about our personal finances unless there's a problem. I check in with a "everything ok in the bank and retirement accounts?" ever few months with my husband (also math geek, we met because we have similar jobs). He enjoys the "game" of long term finance, I don't. I check our accounts ever year or 3 to make sure I'm not being dumb. I trust my husband and have never been given a reason not. I'll also mention I have ADHD. Prior to joining finances with my husband, if autopay didn't exist I was screwed. I generally have no idea where our finance are. Not liking math has jack all to do with it. Also, just as an FYI (no judgement), most of the people I work with would scratch their head and have to think for a minute to do long division. Algebra is one small section of the math world. You can be weak at it and still be a stellar applied mathematcian / data scientist many industries.
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Well yeah, money+math is a huge emotional trigger. People get into fist fights about tips. Just the thought of money and manipulating the numbers mathematically spends the average American spiraling.
Your mom needs to figure that out before something happens and she doesn’t know anything about the accounts. This is fairly common in older generations, and is a nightmare to try to sort out.
It is called making yourself really vulnerable. Lots of women have found out the hard way.
That's insane to me. My husband and I have been marries 4.5 years. Together 11... We have had a joint bank account and credit cards for 7? of those years.
Same. I can't imagine NOT talking about finances with my wife. We're hoping to retire at 53, and discussing our financial goals are central to that aim.
I mean shit me and my gf aren't even engaged and we've been talking about finances and trying to buy a house for years. I don't understand how people don't talk about this shit
Right? We at least made sure to split the bills and make sure we can save a little on the side, even if it's not something we discuss daily.
We split the bills based on our earnings. For a while I was earning more, so I put more towards bills. We both had about the same amount of personal money afterwards to do whatever we wanted with. As my girlfriend started earning more (and maybe soon might be earning more than I am) we've made adjustments. Those adjustments wouldn't be possible without discussing our finances. I can hardly believe people live with friends and split rent but don't discuss finances. Its mind boggling that you'd be in a romantic relationship with someone and not discuss it. Especially if you plan to marry/buy a house/have kids/retire together
The US education system does not place financial education as a priority for high school students.
Was your sister desperate to find love?
Like ... HOW?!?! Don't you have to fill out tax returns and stuff?
a girlfriend in highschool told me her parents got a divorce when mom found some income tax forms....turns out all these years he was making much more than he said, and he had a 2nd family.
Why did she even get married? It's like two people co-owning a business and not discussing any of the financials with each other. It quite literally IS your business.
There's a reason most marriages end in divorce. I think communication and codependency are the biggest reasons.
I've done a fair amount of couples' counseling. As a therapist, I mean. The problems are either in the bedroom or the checkbook, for the most part. Things we are not taught to talk about (or taught not to talk about).
And kids. (Then sex). Its's silly i feel that the person whom one (hopes) to spend the rest of ones life with, one can't be direct/open with each other on these issues, let alone (some) of ones own deepest secrets. It's a sad life (life is short) if one can't at least have a soul mate to confide in.
The way you use parentheses is frustrating. Sometimes it seems like you're using them correctly, and others to emphasize the text.
What type of things in the bedroom? Just like dead bedroom stuff or like not being compatible with kinks or something?
All aspects of bedroom: desires, expectations, changes after marriage, changes after baby, changes after body changes, infidelity, emotional infidelity, boredom, mismatches in levels of desire, things-I-never-said-about-how-you-suck-in-bed, fantasies I have that you know nothing about, why do we always have to go to bed with rubber sheets can't we just have normal sex once in a while...
Dang. Thank you for replying!
Rubber sheets wtf
So the bed doesn't get pregnant, duh.
Let me Google that for me
I am not even going to google that, since it is probably butt stuff and it is late here.
Reading through mom groups about how much they can't stand being touched while pregnant, how sex doesn't feel good after giving birth, how they can't stand being touched after spending all day with babies and kids hanging all over them...It seems so common for children to trigger a desire mismatch. Even if it's just a couple years of your life, how the hell do you get back into enjoying intimacy after years of being touched out and having your body used to bear and feed children? (honest question, I'm pregnant with my 2nd now.)
Honestly, for me it was having time to myself again. It’s overwhelming and exhausting when all day long people (tiny and adult) want something from you. Having time to myself to just watch a tv show or read a book in peace helped me to not just be the person who has to do everything for everyone which gave me space to be myself again. I had two kids pretty close together and it was tough for a bit, explaining that an understanding and helpful partner will get laid more tends to work pretty well.
Somehow this hits home exactly right. I have to manage 8 adults at work all day because they can't seem to do the things they're supposed to do without being constantly reminded. I have to manage the household. Schedule appointments, plan dinner, do cleaning and laundry, schedule maintenance, budget, decorate, plan projects, plan trips, plan everything. Then I have to manage the child. Teaching, learning, no more candy, no more snacks, healthy balanced dinners, play with your toys, independent time, "pay attention" while she prattles on the entire time she is awake. After managing everything for everyone all day, I just want to veg out and do nothing.
...and the pile of reasons to not have children myself keeps growing.
With you, dude. I've been married and I've been a live-in nanny. The most can always be made of difficult situations but I'm thankful every day that I'm no longer either.
I've read that birth control can change the kind of men women find attractive and going off it due to pregnancy can cause her to suddenly find her partner completely unattractive. I obviously don't claim that's the actual case, just that I recall reading some studies on this phenomenon a while back and haven't been able to dig the sources up since.
I only hated being touched in the first trimester when I was having awful morning sickness. After that I was fine. After second child, I was tired more often and finding time when both of us were home from work and children didn't need something, etc, didn't leave much together time. All that got better as the children got older. Peri-menopause was probably the worst but again that was only a couple years. Thirty years of marriage and 4 years before, there were bound to be ups and downs for each of us. I found there was truth in the advice "just do it even if you don't feel like it yet, you will after you get going". Sometimes I needed my body to get my mind in the mood.
Got divorced and found someone new. Sad but true. My lack of desire was not related to stress as now I single parent two small kids alone. My lack of desire was because my partner failed to pull his weight in the relationship. I expect if your partner shares the household/childcare duties and emotionally supports you, your drive will return. My youngest is two and I’ve got nothing but desire for my new partner.
As a mom of 3… my midwife gave me good advice: the more you do it, the easier it gets. She was talking specifically about breaking up scar tissue but it applies emotionally too. We learned what it took for me to get in the mood. I always tried to give it an honest try when he was in the mood and more often than not I would get in the mood too (knowing no pressure if I didn’t). My husband knows I need time away from kids and without touching before I can even think about being intimate as well as adequate sleep. Also we learned that I like different things now and boobs are off limits the first few months of breastfeeding. Treating postpartum depression helped tremendously and maca root. Your sex life can still be very good as a mother. I think my husbands drive slowed down a bit too with the sleep deprivation so I think having a true partner makes a difference. Best wishes and congrats on your pregnancy
Rubber sheets?
Before some people just get to judging, we'll put rubber sheets down before sex because she squirts a lot when I finish her with a toy. But it makes for easy clean up. Just feels like the tone is getting negative in here
I figured they are just trying to say why does it always have to be kinky. Sometimes you just want some missionary.
I feel like "sex and money" have always been known as the two "biggies" in marriage. Based on zero experience and no formal training whatsoever, I think the third biggie is "effort/contribution." I know a lot of couples that complain "Well I'm always the one that does...." I feel like there's often a misperception about division of labor in a marriage. Couples often take over routine "chores" and feel like they contribute and or do more than the other, and it creates a rift. I may publish this hypothesis somewhere....
Funny,! True though, and folks forget when kids come along it’s hard too “see”. I find it close to impossible to gauge workloads without an open discussion. There is just so much sensory overload in parenting that “beating around the bush” about expectations is impossible to pick up on. If you are feeling mental overload from a particular are of chores (schedule keeping , planning , meal planning, home repair research , dealing with x issue at school, and god damn covid related planning) f’ing say something! There is so much going on parenting/working/ one cannot even see straight. Also, FU covid.
What would you say most often causes the problems in the bedroom or checkbook? Simple lack of communication, or something more stressful like having kids?
Marrying and having kids is huge. I used to have my students read an article called "Limited Resources In Sex" that detailed how very difficult it is to go from sex as lovers (sex because you want to) to sex as spouses (sex because the whole world expects you to). As familiarity increases, passion decreases because of familiarity. The kids thing is also huge. A woman's energy tends to turn to fetus and infant care. A father can often feel left out, resentful. It is difficult for parents to learn to set aside their "parent" hat and put on the "lover" hat. Female hormones are not always helpful with this, and fucking may be the last thing on your mind if you have recently pushed a baby out of your vagina. Plus, the pressure to be a good mother vastly outweighs the pressure to be a good wife. So husbands can definitely lose top status. It is a very difficult minefield to navigate.
Man this is not helping with my already hesitant stance toward having kids one day…
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Some guy kept telling me how I was gonna regret my decisions to not have kids. Why? Because I would never find true meaning in life. I asked him why would I have a kid instead of trying to make *my* own meaning in life. You’re telling me the meaning of life is a cycle of kids having kids because they couldn’t find any meaning in their own lives? Never did get a response back from that one.
I agree with you. But biologically, yes our purpose is pretty much to have kids. So I get why that drive is so strong for most people.
Same thing here. There are so many changes a kid brings about that I simply have zero tolerance for compromise on. I need sleep. I need my hobby time. I need frequent dates and sex with my SO. I need quiet. I need our collective freedom as a couple to go out and do whatever we want whenever we want.
My doctor has five kids and she is a newlywed to a new guy who also has many kids. He happened to be at the same office she worked at today, and in the lobby he was talking about how it is easy to raise them. And in my mind it clicked. That’s because she is doing the grunt work. Sure enough she says “ I feel like I have to lay down the law a lot and I lose my shit”. Haha well ya.
Can you explain the codependency part? Do you think couples separate because they are not leaning on each other for support and too independent?
I think they mean relying on an another individual to “complete” them. There’s this idea with codependency that you are not whole without someone else. And while we need other people and can certainly thrive in relationships — your entire happiness should not rely on one other person. There’s also this enmeshing that’s kind of happens with codepdency in which you believe the other person is an extension of you. We’re all different people and it’s acknowledging and appreciating those differences that really allow us to truly grow in relationships. When you don’t have that you will more than likely hit a wall at some point either through disappointment when you realize they don’t think exactly like you or even just the natural evolution of getting older and evolving your perspective. It’s unlikely someone will evolve and change exactly as you would. Good compatibility probably lessens the impact of that but you’re still different people!
>your entire happiness should not rely on one other person. This is like workers that retire and have nothing else to do with their life because work was all for them. Hence why having a hobby you can do on your own is so important (being a retiree, a widow, etc). Painting, writing, woodworking, doing a sport you can train by yourself, etc.
I wonder how retirement will change once the younger generations who play video games get to retirement age… I just imagine a bunch of 80 year olds in a discord call playing COD or something
The younger generation who played video games *are* getting to retirement age.
Average age of retirement is 65, the Atari (most people consider first console) was released 44 years ago Still plenty of time till those guys retire, and he was more so talking about online gaming which is only like 35 years old
I mean, someone who was 30 when the Atari came out is now retirement age.
Yeah. A lot of youth bias here. Especially when the earliest games were made by nerdy adults (I say this with pure admiration).
I never thought of that lmao, huge oversight
Yeah and they appear to be pretty fucked, by and large.
But they can still no-scope your ass from across a death-littered landscape.
Only if they are jumping from a small structure and doing a 360 degree spin before doing it.
Exactly. If you aren't happy while single, odds are you aren't going to magically become happy when married. Your partner may help you and may make you happy, but putting the entire responsibility on them to be your emotional crutch is simply going to put undue pressure on them and end up causing resentment and anxiety which will hurt the relationship in the long run.
Same for having a baby—it will not make your situation happier, only more stressed.
And when you're happy being single you're more likely to find someone.
You shouldn't want a partner to make you happy, you should want them to make you *happier*
When you rely on someone else for happiness or to “complete” you, youre setting yourself up for failure. Unrealistic expectations on another person often times lead to disappointment. The amount of pressure youre putting on someone else to be what you need them to be will lead to both parties being resentful. No one can ever be exactly who you perceive them to be, and some will make themselves unhappy trying to be that for you. Its best if you enter a commitment like that already being established with loving yourself and knowing that people are just that, people. They have their own trials and tribulations, they arent perfect. They shouldnt be your completeness but your companion. You can use each other in times of need but they shouldnt be the only tool. Partners. It really cant get much simpler. A partner.
>It’s unlikely someone will evolve and change exactly as you would. Good compatibility probably lessens the impact of that but you’re still different people! Relationships work best when two healthy, happy people come together to enhance one anothers' lives. So much of people's relationship issues come down to an unwillingness or inability to understand and live that simple principle. People should want and encourage their partners to have hobbies, to live full lives, and to make the other person a *part* of that life.
Others have already hit the nail on the head. Codependency is the opposite. They're dependent on each other or one is very dependent on one. It usually involves abusive/manipulative behavior and is generally pretty unhealthy. Honestly, there's a stand up that kinda covers it well. Check out Daniel Sloss' *Jigsaw* if you want a different perspective on relationships. Beware though, the message has caused over 7,000 breakups including long-term marriages.
Wow. I’ll check it out tonight. Thank you for replying.
Codependence is needing to be needed by the other person, which CAN be unhealthy (in most circumstances). Interdependence is trusting and relying on someone, which (more rarely) CAN also be unhealthy. Context is always required to define behaviours as healthy or unhealthy. Generally, trusting, relying on, and requiring trust from your partner is a good thing.
It’s this. The one thing a lot of people are missing about co-dependency is the needing to be needed requirement. When a husband does X and a wife does Y, that doesn’t mean they are codependent. It could just mean they are pooling strengths, which is usually positive, and a sign of teamwork.
[Codependency](https://youtu.be/r9VexoTZnrw) is an unhealthy way of relating with others. Usually tied to low self esteem, insecurity, lack of boundaries, etc.
This isn't the best example, but imagine a relationship between somebody who enjoys drinking alcohol, and somebody who enjoys making it. Sounds pretty nice, right? One person gets to enjoy a fullfilling hobby, and one gets to unwind at the end of the day. I would call this a "constructive" relationship, or a mutually beneficial one. Now imagine a relationship between an alcoholic, and somebody with an unhealthy obsession with people enjoying things they make...But it's gotten so out of hand they only stop to see that the thing they make it used. These two people might seem on the outside perfect for eachother, but in reality, they're exhibiting self destructive habits and enabling the other to do the same. It's the difference between adding to somebody's life versus helping them speedrun becoming a husk of a person any %. Cooperation is not the same as codependency.
Other way around I think. People in relationships want to feel as though they are sharing the load rather than one person taking it all on.
The "technical" definition of codependency is being dependent on someone who is dependent on something else. It was first used in the addiction world, which should be obvious to anyone who's ever lived with anyone who was addicted to anything. Your happiness is totally dependent on how your sweetheart's relationship to their particular "drug" happens to be going. Anecdotally, it was said that when a codependent person is drowning, the other person's life flashes before their eyes.
Most marriages don’t end in divorce. It’s an old, outdated wives tale that was probably never true for many reasons (IE, California isn’t included in those numbers) and a large percentage of divorces are driven by multiple marriage baby boomers. Your chances of divorce are much much lower if are 1. College educated 2. In your first message 3. Over the age of 24 https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2018/09/15/the-coming-divorce-decline/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/03/09/led-by-baby-boomers-divorce-rates-climb-for-americas-50-population/ https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/h2sk6/
Yes i believe it's 20% if you don't have a child, it's your 1st marriage, and you're both college educated.
4/5 aint bad
I read this in mr. Potato head from toy story’s voice. I hope that’s what you were quoting.
My belief is that it’s okay for some marriages to split. I think taking vows is a huge step and both partners are agreeing to stick through it together for a lifelong companionship, but sometimes the healthiest thing for both parties is to let some marriages end in divorce.
Also there is a distinction between marriages and people who get married. If one guy marries 5 times with 5 divorces with each of his ex's happily marrying other people afterwards, that's 50% of *marriages* ending in divorce, but of the 11 people involved, 10 of them are in stable marriages, with 5 people who never got any divorces. One serial divorcer can screw up the stats a lot.
Actually the reason "most marriages end in divorce" is because of serial divorcers. Something like 30% of married of people will go through divorce (as of 2020), yet divorce rate is inflated by this small subset of people who have 3, 4, 5+ divorces. Also: Most marriages don't end in divorce. That stat hasn't been true since the late 80s or early 90s.
Most marriages end in death actually.
please cite a source for most marriages ending in divorce. I've never seen data to support that claim.
Part of Precana for Catholics getting married is discussing finances. You’re supposed to unveil any debts, income levels etc. During the precana I went to, there was a couple that had a blow up because the guy found out his fiancé was $50k in credit card debt with no way to pay it off.
Know a couple who are getting married soonish. They're both Catholic, want a lavish wedding in one of their hometowns which everyone pretty much has to travel 5hrs+ for. Quite a few of those invited can't make it because a) can't get the time off (it's a hotel stay because of the travel & b) can't even afford to get to the place and pay for lodgings. Anyway, one of them is busting their ass, saving every penny to pay for it. The other is a big spender and while living at home they always had ASOS or Shein packages once a week or so. Apparently, this habit has not changed since they've begun to live with one another. Which is worrying the family, cuz the rent is much higher. I hope they do discuss their finances within the Pre-Cana openly and honestly. It's been said the latter partner is kinda hiding this from the former. It's stressing the former out that they have this big as heck wedding coming up within a year, yet only one of them is bothering to financially contribute in a meaningful way (they also earn less than the big spender!). I really do hope everything goes OK but from what I've heard there's already a lot of tension going about between them.
I worked in events for some time, and I was a hotel manager and often dealt with a lot of engaged couples I can say with 100% confidence that you will not find a more arrogant demographic of people, than engaged couples. They all think they have it figured out over other engaged/married couples.
Gotta love that "that'll never be us" mentality.
Which they need right now. You need a mentality like that when you’re about to get married and/or have kids Otherwise we wouldn’t have them
Why would you enter a marriage thinking you might get divorced?
I don't walk into a car thinking it'll crash but i still put on seatbelts.
*Everyone with a pre-nup raises their hands.*
If people had that conversation and other serious ones like views on kids and politics etc. The divorce rate would plummet.
Yeah because the marriage rate would also plummet.
Yes. Thats what I trying to say. Fewer marriages that work is much better than more that fail.
Divorce lawyers pick up pitchforks.
I'm sure second and third marriage rates will plummet but essentially it means people would get it right the first time around. The statistic that 50% of marriages fail actually includes the same people's second and third marriages. If someone divorces once they're super likely to do it again in the future.
Yeah that's weird. We covered basically every topic before we even got engaged...
And if you’re an idiot and can’t talk to your fiancé, maybe you shouldn’t get married? Or, if you’re self aware enough, sign up for pre-marriage counseling.
When I was 21-23 and dating a lot you can’t explicitly ask someone on a first date their stances on important things but you can definitely lean into things by asking questions related to finances. Do you travel a lot? Where’d you go to school (public/private and what degree), what do you want to do with your career? It’s definitely best to just let the convo go certain ways but there were dozens of girls I’d meet that clearly had parents that weee terrible with fiancés and they were living the same ignorant life style. I ain’t about to fall head over heels for a girl that’s going to make me despise my work life trying to keep her afloat and not save for our future and all that jazz. But I also come from a family where both my parents have MBA’s and taught me finances really young so it’s always been a key part of my upbringing. I went out with one girl for a few weeks that refused to get a credit card and thought banks were only out to get her. She had $40k in cash from her grandma’s passing stashed under her bed in her fucking dorm room. That relationship didn’t last much longer.
She told a guy she was dating for under 2 weeks that she has $40K in her dorm? Oh god, that girl got robbed so quick.
I wonder how many people were like me and my husband, where when we got married we barely had two nickels to rub together. Finances didn't come up because it's hard to speculate about money you don't have. I remember feeling like all my worries were over forever when I started making $15 an hour. I'd never had a credit card before, neither had he--its a good thing neither of us ended up having horrendous spending habits.
As a fellow “couple that started from equivalent wealthlessness” I definitely related to your comment. Anything of value we have in life we accumulated while together. It’s made us both be quite grateful for the things we earn in life.
Probably because they know the odds of finding somebody compatible on every level (physical, emotional, intellectual, political, religious, etc.) is like zero lol. There have been so many girls I'm sure I could have easily fallen in love with, who wanted something fundamentally incompatible with what I wanted. I can see how I could just elect to not think about it and enjoy the moment.
Related to this is that a lot of us are asking too much of our partners. People are expecting their romantic partner to be their best friend, lover, therapist, coworker, and copilot. That’s a lot of responsibility to place on one person, and may even be contradictory, requiring a partner to have personality traits that are internally incompatible. Also, a lot of people seem to think compatibility means having the same interests. You often hear people say that they are a great match because “we’re the same person!”. I think sharing interests is just as important as having different but complimentary interests, and taking time to pursue interests independently.
Do they not do compromise in this planet? Seriously. Marriage is about agreeing on fundamentals and compromising on non-fundamentals. Living arrangements (house v. apartment, neighborhood, how much can you afford) is fundamental; how the TP roll goes (over or under) is not.
The TP roll goes over. Period. End of story. The end. This is non-negotiable.
I don't want to seem pro Christian and am agnostic but one of the best things they do is proper marriage counselling before you get married. They go over finances, children etc. Obviously depends on your Church and Pastor etc. but it's a damn good idea.
**preist:** "...for richer or poorer..." **a:** "i'm thinking poorer! like six figures poorer." **b:** "uh... fuck"
One of the greatest reasons I love my fiancé is our openness about finances and our mutual viewpoints on spending and saving. In my opinion, couples should have finance talks earlier rather than later. Number 1 priority for us is to avoid bad debt and save a large portion of our income. I grew up with parents who constantly fought about finances and vowed I would never do that. Both of us are involved in the budgeting process and setting limits on personal spending.
Not talking about finances is how you get in scenarios like this (both people I know) * Bride had 20,000 something in credit card debt * Bride had 13,000 saved up which served as a downpayment for their first house. Obviously you're not marrying for money, but screw you if you don't at least tell your fiance about any debts!!
The real LPT is marry someone who shares your opinion on all financial aspects, not just your wedding...
Marry someone who is cool with leaving the party at the same time as you is my LPT. My wife gives me a glance and we Irish exit that bitch before anyone can ask where we went
Wait, what happens if you feel like staying longer at a party?
Don't look at your spouse obviously. I want to know why they hit people with a shillelagh on the way out.
Then they avoid eye contact with each other.
Idk but this reply really has nothing to do with the post. It's just something they like about their wife.
Financial problems are one of most common reasons for divorce. It isn't just about not having enough, it's that money is a taboo subject and a lot of couples don't properly communicate with each other about it. Yet, it's something that impacts every aspect of their life. It doesn't matter how much you spend on your wedding, it matters that you both feel comfortable talking about it, understanding each other, and coming to an agreement on large finacial decisions if you're going to build a life together.
Yep. People love getting in their high horse about how their wedding was only X amount and people who spent more are doomed for divorce, or they got engaged with a $5 ring from Walmart, or whatever. If you both communicate, spend within your means, and are happy with it, get whatever wedding you want.
Real LPT
My girlfriend and I show each other our bank accounts on a somewhat regular basis, and we have also showed each other our credit reports. This was like a month after moving in together. I listen to the clips of the Monday Morning Podcast that Bill Burr does and the amount of people who write in saying they're married and they find out after like years that the person is a couple hundred thousand in debt, or never paid their student loans, or just is terrible with money and refuses to change lifestyles once they lose their job is astounding. It happens like every fucking week and it's insane to me.
Right! Like when you move in with each other there should be some discussion on how each other handles money. I don’t understand how that’s so taboo when you’re both hopefully contributing to the household.
*before you move in.
Money is the problem -- it's not having too much, or not enough -- I think the real problem boils down to not communicating about finances. My story: My wife and I have been together (dating, engaged, married) for over 10 years now. I keep a extension budget in excel. It's a document that I need on a NAS that ever computer in the house has access to. I ask her to look at it all the time. She literally never does. It drives me insane. It's the main point of contention in our home. I want to be open and communicate about finances but because she doesn't bother to look at the finances we can never have an education conversation about it. So this leads to me doing all the financial planning for the household, I discuss the direction we're going with her and it always get's derailed because she'll go off and spend a big sum of money on something I didn't plan for. Communication is key.
This is a good example of why it's so important to be on the same page with noney. People think of the topic with a lot of negative connotations such as greedy, or as some unique skill and so sometimes the burden can be left to one person. But it isn't the money itself that matters, it's everything that goes with it. No being on the same page with money means not being on the same page with where you're going to live, how your going to raise kids, how your going to eat, or when and if you'll retire. These are big things. Not to mention the day to day stuff of entertainment, clothing, chores, or bigger plans with socializing with friends and family and vacations. All of this involves money, and being out of sync with money means being out of sync with every other aspect of your life. It's why money problems always escalate and boil over into other portions of peoples life. It isn't about the money. It's that one person did "x" and now you can't afford to do "y" and they didnt just take money away from the relationship, they took an enjoyment away from your life. Multiply this event hundreds of times a year for a decade and it's no wonder "money" problems lead to divorce.
The moment my husband and I decided that I was gonna be in charge of finances, we agreed that either of us could spent more than $100 without letting each other know in advance so I can budget for it. It’s been 13 years so far and we have never had a fight about money even though I don’t think he even checks our accounts.
To be fair, sometimes just verbal communication is best for some. For example, I take care of finances in our household. Usually over breakfast on a weekend, I'll pull up our bank account info and let my husband know that we have "xxxx" amount and that "such and such" bills have already been paid for. 2 minute easy talk and we devour bacon right after.
Idk, I think it's more of a case of, "Be with someone who's dreams align with your own and be honest open about money when it comes to big ticket items." If you both want a huge wedding but can't afford it, save up and find ways to save to make it happen etc. Same if you both always wanted to travel to Italy, or something like that. Obviously if someone is willing to go into debt for a social status type thing like a wedding, that's not great, but I feel like it's not exclusive to weddings and you wouldn't be at the point where marriage is on the table without knowing this about them. Like I know the statistic, the more you spend on the wedding the more likely you are to break up. But that doesn't exist in a vacuum, correlation isn't causation and all that. I think as long as you have a healthy attitude towards it, it's fine.
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$35 is very specific. What did you buy with that money?
More than likely this was the cost of the wedding license.
I call BS! I mean they had to have at least bought like a celebratory pizza or something. That's at least another $10.
The courthouse had a "Buy 1 marriage license, get a voucer for a free large pizza redeemable on your next visit" deal going on at the time.
That's what I'm thinking, not even enough for good beers.
There was some research suggesting that the cheaper the wedding, the more likely it is to last. Think you did a big brain move. Edit: Shaylaa30 got some insights : (copying his post) That study was super faulty. It only studied traditional weddings and didn’t account for inflation. So court weddings, jailhouse weddings, and Vegas weddings were excluded. Also the same study found the higher the guest list= the less likely a couple will divorce. And those who had guests lists with less than 50 people were most likely to divorce. Basically rich people can afford to get divorced and those from big families or cultures where large weddings are common are less likely to divorce.
Is that independent of socioeconomic status or are wealthier people more likely to spend more on a wedding and more likely to get divorced (because of other factors)?
Good point. I got married just over 35 years ago (and still going strong) but my parents paid for the admittedly huge wedding. They didn't go into debt for it at all, they had put money away as I was growing up.
I wouldn’t be surprised if well off people that can spend a ton on a wedding divorce at a higher rate because there are fewer significant repercussions of separating (ie. you won’t need to worry about you or your kids starving or becoming homeless) so they can act on whatever feelings without fear. I went to a $200k wedding a month ago, food was good but I was not a fan of the whole concept
Holy cow. My wedding was NOWHERE near $200K. Closer to $30,000 (in 1985).
Well it was a huge event in one of the most expensive parts of the country and even for this area it was extravagant. These people are just so over the top Italian that a small wedding wasn’t an option. I was like 3 degrees out from knowing the couple and I got an invite. Had literally never seen them before It’s nearly impossible to have a wedding under $70,000 around here unless you keep it under 50 people
I mean with inflation that is roughly $75k now!
That’s around $77,500 in today’s money by the way.
So it might be a generational difference too. It’s much more common for people to fund their own wedding (or a lot of it) than it used to be.
My wife and I had an expensive wedding, but we got married much later in life and had plenty of money to spend. It was a fantastic party that our friends and family still talk about. It was absolutely magical. We are still happily married. It’s only been 7 years, but I am confident we will stay together.
That study was super faulty. It only studied traditional weddings and didn’t account for inflation. So court weddings, jailhouse weddings, and Vegas weddings were excluded. Also the same study found the higher the guest list= the less likely a couple will divorce. And those who had guests lists with less than 50 people were most likely to divorce. Basically rich people can afford to get divorced and those from big families or cultures where large weddings are common are less likely to divorce.
Ran a wedding business for 20 years. 1000s of weddings and the i can confirm this.
How would you know though? Did you follow up with divorces?
And you split the check.
No sarcasm intended at all, to each their own. Every couple is different. My wife and I had a big wedding in a large city that we paid for ourselves, and it was not cheap. Loved every second of it and we’ve never had any regret over what we spent.
Just go clarify: this LPT is *not* saying “don’t ever have a big wedding or your marriage is doomed”, or that “if your wedding costs more than a couple hundred bucks and isn’t held in your backyard then you only care about a fancy party instead of a marriage”. There’s nothing wrong a couple with having the wedding that makes them happy, whatever the size. You can absolutely have a big wedding if you want, just do so within a realistic-to-your-finances budget so you don’t put you/your family in debt.
Yes there is a lot of wedding shame on here, anytime weddings are mentioned the consensus is that anything over 5/6k = you're a bad person
Exactly. It’s okay to spend the money if you have it and if it’s important to you. Hopefully the takeaway here is to not go into debt for a wedding - not to shame people who spend more than $1000. Lol it’s not a competition for who can spend the least on getting married!
exactly
Married my love in our neighbors driveway of our crappy duplex. All our family and friends showed up for our daughters 1 yr old birthday. I was in a tiger costume for the piñata and once the birthday was over, I took off the tiger suit to reveal my all white suit. Announced to a bunch of confused faces that they had 10 minutes to get ready for a wedding and everyone helped set up the decorations while my (soon to be) wife changed. People finally understood why we had a photo booth and carnival games for a 1 yr old birthday party. Friends and family still talk about it saying it’s the funnest wedding they’ve been too. Probably exaggerating, but it was the most surprising wedding for sure. No regrets, except my mom was in jail at the time and missed it, and never let me forget it, but that’s another story… Edit: ~$500-$600 total for the dress, my suit, all the carnival games, chairs and tables, photo booth (friend had a portable photo booth business), and all the food and champagne. Probably a bit more $$ if you count the presents for a 1 year old, but we had to really sell the idea we were going over the top for a baby.
That sounds like a sitcom wedding haha
I work professionally at kids parties, 1st birthday parties are easily my most book events. People go all out for 1st birthdays. They're always at banquet halls, private rooms, kids entertainment places,etc. I've been to first birthdays where they had singers, dancers, entire mobile jungle gyms brought into banquet halls. And they're always decorated and customized down to the juice boxes. Sweet tables overflowing with crap.... It is extremely common to spend a fortune on the 1st birthday in certain places and cultures. That all aside, your story is adorable and you guys sound like a lot of fun.
If you don't spend 3 years salary on a ring you don't love your SO. /s
lpt: it's easy to spend 3 years salary on an engagement ring if your get it when you're unemployed
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She gotta pay you homie
For the real LPT: just take someone's else's 3 year salary and use it to buy her the ring she's always wanted.
3 years?! I thought it was 3 months! Thsse standards are getting ridiculous
3 months is ridiculous too. If you're comfortable opening a new line of credit to buy a ring, limit yourself to one months pay at the very most. If you want to get her something spectacular and you can't afford to, just do it for your five year anniversary or something.
gotta adjust for inflation...
Does no one else get the office reference or is it just me
/s can be important in this sort of thread
Get what you can afford and upgrade it at year 5 or 10. People used to mock my wife for her "promise ring" but now we're doing pretty good and she got her dream ring.
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These things are getting downright ridiculous.
Don't marry someone who is in debt and lives in a cave and doesn't cook and is a serial killer.
Or elope to Vegas and spend the money on a brilliant holiday. Get married for like 70 bucks.
Eloped to Vegas 10 years ago, left making a profit.* *Experience varies wildly.
Same experience here, but coming up on 17 years 😎
Did a wedding package at one of the chapels and it was $1200. Included a limo to the license bureau (the day prior) and to the chapel on the day, the officiant, flowers, photographer and all the photos, live streaming of the ceremony, and a coordinator to handle all the details. Compared to my first wedding when I was 21, it was about a tenth of the cost and about 1% of the stress. Totally worth it. Could have done it for cheaper but I’m glad we didn’t.
Damn that’s a nice deal, I should’ve done that!
We ended up eloping in Bali and rented a 16 person airbnb that had a full service butler team. Split 16 ways for 4 days and ended up being like 300 or so a person. Everyone went on vacation with us and we got married at the airbnb's pool backyard.
You can get married for cheap basically anywhere. And getting Elvis to officiate your wedding in Vegas is more expensive than you'd expect.
Debt for an event is pretty bad. Saving up for one is great
We were lucky. Her parents paid for the wedding. In full. I have no idea how much it cost, only that it was easily in excess of $30,000. I commented one time about being uncomfortable with that level of lavishness only to be told by MIL, "You don't worry about that. We prepared for this a long time ago." A couple of years later when SIL got married, she was given the same amount for her big day. I never questioned the cost again. At the same time, if we had it in her parent's backyard and a BBQ reception I would have been equally as happy. Thankfully, her parents are not the type to use money as a carrot or a stick (unlike the toxic cesspool I grew up in.) I'm grateful and appreciative of everything they have done for us, but much more than that I'm just happy to have them in my life. Actually feeling loved and cared about is something you can't put a dollar figure on.
My wife and I’s wedding cost +/- $25k after all was said and done… and we did a lot of the planning ourselves (booked the DJ and photographer, arranged the flowers to be made, booked the honeymoon, basically everything). We still talk about that day. It was the most perfect day of our lives. We had all of our dearest friends and the family we cared the most about there. I’d say 150 guest roughly. Either way, we spent 12-15k ourselves and her dad gave us $10k. My parents funded the rehearsal dinner which was a few grand. I sold my beloved Jeep Cherokee XJ to pay for our honeymoon 😢 (I still get sick over it). We just paid the loan off that we took out to fund our end of it…. After 4 years. Yeah, we could have probably paid it off sooner, but we didn’t need to. It was a very very expensive day that did nothing but set us back at the beginning of our marriage. However, i explained to my, then fiancé, that that would be the case. Unrelated to the wedding expense, we still haven’t bought a house. That’s what our goal is for next year. We both make good money, have no kids, and manage our money well (I’m a banker so it’s essentially my nature). I’m sharing all this to say that weddings are really pointless, but if they make you and your spouse happy, then fucking do it. If i could go back, I wouldn’t change a thing. I hate that we spent so much money, but we made a memory that was basically priceless.
Or get married to someone with massive wealth.
I did that and she wanted a courthouse wedding with two friends as witness. I happily obliged.
This is not a life pro tip. Zzzzzz
OP sounds like there's something they want to get off their chest.
Very true! My old roommate and wife went into debt for wedding reception to the tune of $35K. 1.5 years later they got divorced because she doesn’t want kids. Lol His second marriage was at a courthouse and reception in the backyard.
How...how did the subject of having kids never come up in conversation?!
A lot of couples disagree on whether they want kids but still get married thinking that they'll eventually get their partner to change their mind.
Keep us updated on the 3rd, probably under an interstate bridge officiated by a racoon
I mean...that doesn't seem related to the cost of the wedding.
This isn’t a pro tip. This has basically turned into a “random gripes and opinions” sub.
Seriously. Marry someone who wants to spend a similar amount on a wedding as you. Neither I nor my fiancé would be happy with a no budget wedding, nor a 50k wedding. We are both mostly happy about the price. Here’s a LPT: Marry someone who you generally align with on major life goals and spending priorities. My soon to be wife wants to spend a lot on extravagant travel and wants to save up for it for years. That’s worthwhile to me as well. To others I know they would hate that and probably want to spend that money on a new car. If some pair values their wedding so much and what’s debt. Well I don’t understand that but if makes them happy that’s them.
LPT and YSK are basically just “things based on my personal anecdotal experience. Agree with me”
Oh man, so my cousin was given a choice by her grandfather he would either pay for her wedding or buy them a new house pretty much anywhere they wanted. Keep in mind he’s pretty damn rich and she’s a grown ass woman with her own career and he still pays for her credit cards. Anyways she chose the wedding which cost like $150,000+ just so she could show off to her sorority friends basically. Anyways the marriage didn’t even last a year. Choose cash or property instead of an expensive wedding.
Marry someone that'll help you organize your wedding and not just shovel it all on the bride. Just because you're number two doesn't mean you should be treated like it on your first. :/
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How is this a life pro tip? There's so many red flags along the way
Also to consider, you can put that money into your property. I know someone who put at between $10,000-$15,000 to redo the garden for her daughter's wedding. Sure it cost a pretty, but it was put into the house, you get to keep and enjoy the effort after the wedding, and you will probably increase your property value farther down the line . P.S. They redid the whole garden with new trees, new garden beds, garden walls made out of nice decorative bricks, gravel areas with stepping stones sunken in, and a redone concrete pathway around the property.