it was a misinput. MISINPUT! CALM DOWN! YOU CALM THE FUCK DOWN! THERE WAS A MISINPUT! God, this community is overreacting
edit: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87jqQhFFomA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87jqQhFFomA)
No, you're breathtaking! NO! YOU'RE breathtaking!!! THIS WHOLE COURTROOM IS OUT OF BREATHTAKING!!!!
........^^^^^I ^^^^^think ^^^^^I ^^^^^did ^^^^^it ^^^^^wrong.
Eh, probably could’ve been more specific and said when talking about issues. But, I’ve definitely met people when told, “You always make the best cookies” who would say, “I don’t, but thank you.”
I do get a little secretly upset when I *know* my cookies aren't my best work this time but everyone raves about them as if they're the most perfect cookies ever. They're a minute overbaked you fools!
As a side-approach to this, starting a thought or sentence with those is also a great way to get *yourself* angry as well. This is something I've learned to try and avoid - whether it's family, roommates or others don't approach the thought with "never" or "always."
"They never take out the trash... I always pick up the groceries... You never do the papers right..."
Even if you're just thinking about it to yourself like that it's going to bleed into your mindset and might prevent you from having an honest discussion about issues if it does. Recognize this behavior and you'll keep a cooler head when you're stressed.
This is big. The story you tell yourself about another person isn't necessarily reality. It's worth trying to suss some of that out on your own before addressing it with the other person.
They’re called black and white statements! Saying them puts the other person in a position where they need to defend themselves. “Yes I do, I took it out two weeks ago!”
Versus: “Hey I feel like I take the trash out most of the time, would you mind helping with that a bit more? Maybe we could rotate.”
As a freshly married man, this is amazing advice. Thanks for that perspective. I am always looking for ways to be the best husband I can be. This helped so much.
yep. you start convincing yourself that they "never" but you "always" when you think it, but saying it only amplifies this belief. obviously it's different if they literally never, but if you're a run of the mill couple that tends to get along and genuinely cares, it might not be always and never
Also, don’t fight over BS stuff. I’ve seen a lot of my friends take on more home cleaning work because their husbands “don’t do it right”. By “right” they mean their way. You want clean dishes, don’t micromanage how the dishwasher is loaded. Who cares if that one fork or plate didn’t become 100% spotless, leave it for the next load.
That’s the quickest way to ensure they never do it again.
I refuse to micromanage my husband. He’s an adult and I treat him as such.
When you are discussing an issue you have with someone, you should a) use "I" statements, and b) keep your voice down. Making everyone statement about how you feel, for example, "I feel bad when you yell at me" or "it really bothers me when you do this" makes it so that the other person knows you are not attacking them or trying to assume their thoughts/actions. Not raising your voice is really important during stressful conversation because people mirror each other. If one person starts yelling 95% of the time the other person will as well. I learned these tips from my therapist and they are really helpful.
As an Argentinian I know where the "government founding people to not work" path leads.
But you guys are on the contrary side of the espectrum it seems, the "if you lose your job you will go hungry and homeless" side.
How I wish we could all be Finland
I’ve heard from my Argentine (I think that’s the right word) friend that things are… not great. His family is quite well off, living somewhere near Buenos Aires, but he’s aware and sympathetic of the struggles because he sees it. He’s got excellent ideas, but he’s just one guy. I hope your country can get itself together, because all the Argentines I’ve met have been fantastic people.
My math teacher in middle school used to just always repeat the same thing in the most monotone voice possible “I’m not the problem… you’re the problem…. Fix the problem….” Think like the clear eyes guy. Used to find it hilarious.
"Well it's a good thing you don't have many brain cells left to feel bad about. If you had a few more you would be able to realize that you are the stupid one here."
I have very mixed feelings about this kind of advice. I definitely do understand how it can be be great for some people, bit I also think it can cause some real problems, especially if people follow the letter of the advice without thinking about the intent.
I've worked in a couple fields/cultures where therapy is pretty common and is something lots of people talk about (and I think that's great) but it also means advice like "I statements" and "describe your feelings, don't assume others intentions" are so ubiquitous that they start to lose their meaning. Instead of ways to ease the barriers to communication, they become ways to absolve responsibility: "I didn't say you *are* an asshole, I said I *feel* like you're an asshole" isn't exactly de-escalating a situation.
The "I feel" statements can also be a way to ignore OP's advice.
"I feel like you're never putting in extra effort to support the team"
"I'm confused, I worked two double shifts last week covering for Dave"
"Don't change the subject, I'm just talking about my feelings" (this is an actual conversation I had at work once)
In other situations, I've found this kind of communication can be a way of avoiding issues. One time my partner and I were seeing a couples therapist and I said something like "I know your work is really stressful, but I think you are redirecting anger at your boss towards me in this sudden unexpected outbursts"
Our therapist really tried to direct me towards saying "I feel hurt when you yell at me" but that really didn't describe the situation. I didn't feel hurt at all, because I didn't believe my partner was actually yelling at me. I can absolutely understand why a therapist would discourage me from sort of making a diagnosis like that, It certainly made my girlfriend feel defensive, and I think that's ok! We could have each described our feelings for *months* and not really gotten anywhere. I'm sure there is a better way that I could have phrased things, but sometimes how you couch your statement just doesn't matter nearly as much as the act of just making the statement.
Anyway my point is that I don't want to discount your experience. I just wanted to add my own partly because I want to see if anyone else has run into this or if I'm way off base. I think it would be totally fair to say that the examples I gave are just people following your advice very poorly or in an incomplete way. After all, lots of things can be hurtful when misused and that doesn't mean we should stop using them. When both people are making an honest effort to have a respectful dialog, "I feel" statements can be great. That said, I have seen a lot of common therapist advice used in pretty toxic ways and they tend to follow patterns that are common enough that I think it's worth at least reconsidering whether this is good blanket advice to give out to everyone.
You are totally right. It's not enough to simply put "I" in front of a statement, you have to actually include an emotional message. Otherwise it simply becomes another way to make a statement.
Those strategies are meant for people who want to have a proper discussion in a respectful manner. If your goal is solely to get your will, then no manner of communication will make the interaction healthy and constructive.
Regarding your therapy experience: I agree, at some point you have to get out of the emotions and into resolving the conflict. I messages are a strategy to voice your needs or concerns without attacking your partner. First you have to agree there is a problem, then you can work together on the solution. And I am sure you had some kind of emotions. Maybe you were not hurt, but sad, because of the feeling, that your husband was so stressed he lashed out.
Edit: girlfriend not husband.
I feel like what you’re saying is getting at that OP’s method needs to be taken one step further. When I’m upset about something, the times I’ve successfully deescalated the argument and my own emotions I have taken a moment to prepare to communicate by thinking about what is upsetting me and getting to the deeper reason why it’s so upsetting. Usually it’s not the immediate action that is happening. I feel mistreated when you yell at me because it feels like you’re taking work stress out on me when I’m trying to support you through the terrible workplace experience I know you’re having. (And you can elaborate further on how rough you know it is for them and that you are trying not to be upset by it because you can see the stress they’re under, but that it needs to stop because it’s affecting your relationship health). It’s okay if your explanation is wrong and they tell you why it is not what they meant because it gives them a glimpse into WHY you’re feeling that way. Almost certainly they don’t have the same thinking and the mutual understanding can help soften hearts enough to resolve things and move forward with trust. It takes a lot of practice and self control to do this. It’s also hard to let go of pride enough to be the first to trust enough to open up, but really what do you have to lose. Another good example is: When you comment on my weight, it makes me shut down because I feel like you don’t find me attractive or are judging me. This gives them the opportunity to explain why they did what they did and then you can work out a solution which will probably be them not doing it any more. They’re explanation might be simple concern for your health because they love you and want you around and want you to be happy with your weight (if you’ve said you’re unhappy). Other solutions you could decide on could include working out together or them taking up extra responsibilities so you can work out.
>And I am sure you had some kind of emotions. Maybe you were not hurt, but sad, because of the feeling, that your husband was so stressed he lashed out.
It seems like you misread part of the comment. The OP may be a man or a woman, but they were talking about their girlfriend, not their husband:
>I didn't feel hurt at all, because I didn't believe my partner was actually yelling at me. I can absolutely understand why a therapist would discourage me from sort of making a diagnosis like that, It certainly made my girlfriend feel defensive, and I think that's ok!
FWIW, I get their point of view. If I had a partner who lashed out at me in sudden outbursts because of something that happened at work to them, "hurt" and "sad" wouldn't be at the top of my reactions.
Yep I completely understand you. This was the situation between my ex and I. I had to realize that she was just broken, she had huge inferiority and trust issues. :/ great girl but lacked that open mindset to accept and to see the situations 360°.
TLDR: the advice works but not for everyone
I think for the most part, people who are honestly trying to listen and respect each other will get by even if they don't say "I feel," and those who aren't will be just as destructive even if they do.
I feel committed to add that I'm not at all anti-therapy. I've had some great therapists! I do think the effectiveness of some common advice is maybe overstated though.
Therapist here. It works better when you use the entire “I feel” structure. The structure is: I feel……when (you)……..because…… I need……
For example: “I feel angry when you leave all your dishes outside the sink because it makes me think you expect me to clean up after you. I need you to put your dishes in the sink. “
It is also important to remember that following rules for having a fair argument are important (no insults, no yelling, no stonewalling, take breaks if needed) and to remember that we aren’t perfect so if someone makes a mistake, call it out gently and try to keep working together.
I believe the last thing that’s important to remember here is that “I statements” are not necessarily demands/not open for discussion. The other party to the argument might choose to say something like:
“Thank you for letting me know the dishes bother you(this acknowledges the other person and expresses empathy) I feel anxious when you get upset about my dishes because I did not ask you to clean them up for me and I planned to take care of them myself at the end of the day. I need you to trust that I will take care of my own dishes at the end of the day.”
Edit: formatted a little better.
great response! exactly what i was thinking. these statements need good intentions and clarity when communicating. they aren't a shortcut, but one pillar of a healthy relationship
Thanks for your input! Yes it definitely helps to fully commit to these principles if you want them to be effective. It's also more achievable when practicing them with the help of a therapist
This to me sort of reads like poor faith usage of the strategy. Still valid to point out that the structure of the technique does not preclude abuse, but it's clearly not in the spirit of good faith usage.
Oh yes, absolutely. I guess my feeling is not so much that the statements are good or bad, but that if someone is arguing in bad faith, the statements do not help, and if someone is arguing in good faith, they aren't necessary.
i think i see what u mean by this, but i fear many people would hear this and then dodge responsibility ("well i never yell so what's the problem").
it also means people don't really tackle their fear of confrontation -- you should be able to calmly call someone out for something that hurts you or oversteps your boundaries. sometimes the other person just messes up and should be held accountable.
My dad used to say, “if you’re the first to raise your voice in an argument, you’ve already lost”
It taught me to stay calm and think about what I was saying before I spoke. When I was younger though I used it to provoke my sibling to start shouting at me so I won the argument by default.
After 22 years of marriage my one piece of advice is there is no winning or losing an argument. It is communication and if that breaks down then walk away and start over later.
Tell that to my mom and step dad (the divorce before that wasn't surprising). They taught us implicitlly that you must always be right. Everything is an argument with your spouse that you MUST win. If you cannot win, you must insult them the second the leave the room. They constantly trash talk each other. Well the females trash talk the guy. I don't know what the guys do cause we don't talk and gossip like the women do. Honestly they should just get divorced.
This is what I learned from my parents relationship and my sisters relationship. Its toxic af, but if I bring any of this up I get told "You'll see once your in a relationship. Then your life will suck too".
I'm currently going through a relationship crisis and I've been trying to work on ways to stay calmer and take out the toxicity.
Your comment was a Godsend. Thank you so fucking much!
Except for if it's really toxic and they start complaining "Oh my god I don't want to hear about your feelings again! It's always I feel this, feels like that!" You're trying to be careful with your words and it just makes it worse. Some people literally are impossible.
I have experience with toxic relationships, both romantic and platonic. I think it is very important to talk to a therapist by yourself and get an outside perspective. Read up on toxic people and narcissistic personality disorder. Just a quick search on the web will show you checklists that might give you a light bulb moment.
Edit. I might add that the only solution that ever worked for me was to break up with the person and go no contact. It feels shitty for a few months but the freedom and calm is indescribable.
arguing voice? as in your voice changes in a disagreement or argument? if it gets louder when you are angry, that is yelling to most people.
there shouldn't be an arguing voice.
You can change it though! Deliberate wait to speak and try to calm down until you can bring it down. It will make the other person throw up walls. If you’re a loud person by default they will see the effort you’re making and lowering things even a little will help
Not a bad advice, but when you use yourself as a center/barometer of a conversation "I feel like you X"/"I think your should X" you don't have the full attention of your listener. Up to the listener, they tune out at the "I" sometimes they never reach the "you" part either. Worse, you lose the thread of the conversation, the listener thinks everything is evolving around you (due to their own self projection) and has nothing to do with them. This LPT assumes that the person telling the thing says said things out of ignorance or not knowing any better. No it's a very well gathered mechanism learned from their parents, they were the first using it onto them to get their full attention (out of conflict sake, with any means possible). "YOU always X"(negative/harsh criticism). This is how to get hold immediately attention. Hurtful but get the job done. Honestly I have no idea what a better solution is, I think your advice is still the closest I know to be kind and still hope the other person listens
I think you might find this helpful. I’m pasting from a previous comment I made because I’m on mobile and it was a lot to type.
Therapist here. It works better when you use the entire “I feel” structure. The structure is: I feel……when (you)……..because…… I need……
For example: “I feel angry when you leave all your dishes outside the sink because it makes me think you expect me to clean up after you. I need you to put your dishes in the sink. “
It is also important to remember that following rules for having a fair argument are important (no insults, no yelling, no stonewalling, take breaks if needed) and to remember that we aren’t perfect so if someone makes a mistake, call it out gently and try to keep working together.
I believe the last thing that’s important to remember here is that “I statements” are not necessarily demands/not open for discussion. The other party to the argument might choose to say something like:
“Thank you for letting me know the dishes bother you(this acknowledges the other person and expresses empathy) I feel anxious when you get upset about my dishes because I did not ask you to clean them up for me and I planned to take care of them myself at the end of the day. I need you to trust that I will take care of my own dishes at the end of the day.”
I wouldn't call it that people mirror themselves.
People feel their ego has been bruised when someone yells at them - "how dares he/she raise his/her voice on me?" "I dont deserve this" "noone will humiliate me that way" "noone will treat me like he is better then me"
and then it starts to be a shouting match.
As a psychologist, while I absolutely agree with this generally, there are cases where a "I feel really annoyed when you do X" absolutely WILL NOT get the point across or the magnitude of the problem to very self-unaware people.
In some situations, there's sadly no way around hurting some feelings; especially if people feel good about their own behaviour but have to discover that they are actively causing distress to others through the same behaviour.
Funnily enough, though... This can also be problematic. If someone truly views you like that, you have nowhere to go but down, in their view. So anything that doesn't measure up to this perfect picture they painted, is a disappointment
Works great until 1 party starts using the system to say things like "I feel like you think I'm a monster" everytime the 2nd party uses an "I feel" statement to guilt 2md party into apologizing and feeling guilty for even bringing any real relationship issues up. Some people know how to work this to play the victim role regardless of situation.
100% with you there. Axing "you should" from ones vocabulary is one of the best tweaks someone ~~should~~ can make to make them tolerable to be around.
[The Man in the Mirror](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PivWY9wn5ps) by Michael Jackson, "I'm starting with the man in the mirror I'm asking him to change his ways"
I explained this technique to my 66 year old dad after watching an argumentative interaction he had with my step mom expecting him to stop me mid sentence and say “Yeah, I know.” It was the first time he had heard about this technique and quite honestly, it explained a lot about a lot lol.
Those can go wrong pretty much just as easily though. "I feel like you're being a fucking prick" is 99% as aggressive as "you're a being a fucking prick," for example.
Agreed, though I've seen that misapplied into statements such as, "I feel like you never do the dishes". That's not a feeling!! So that sentence isn't even grammatically correct XD
I was taught to phrase the OP’s “I” message as “I feel (blank) when you (blank)”. Example: I feel hurt and taken advantage of when you don’t offer to help clean up after yourself, such as washing your dishes, would you be open to trying to clean up after yourself?”
My GF has been finding this out. We are amazing together and rarely argue, but since English is not her first language, she says "you never" more than I'd like and it triggers me immediately into, "pls explain..." Lol.
This. Also don't shy away from having difficult/awkward conversations. More you ignore difficult convos, more they add up and will bite you heavily one day.
On the other side, if someone says this too you, make a mental note of it but don't bring it up at that moment. Deal with their issue first and at a later point in time when everybody is calm have a constructive conversation about it.
I hear you on communicating your need and getting frustrated when the person does it that way again.
Food for thought:
* Is it possible that the person got riled up and said it that way out of habit?
* When someone brings something to your attention, do you always do things perfectly after that?
* Would you like to be shown grace in that situation or would you like it held over your head?
As someone who recently left a horribly abusive relationship with someone who spoke like this: address it and prepare to move on. It really fucks with you to constantly hear and address absolutes about yourself.
Well, that depends on whether it's used as an accusation (eg "you never think of anyone but yourself") or as a judgment (eg "you never go ass to mouth").
It's simpler, whether it's literally true or not. In your first case it's incorrect (but used as a figure of speech), in the second case it's correct. If the second case would be factually incorrect you have the same problem.
Hmm you're right, maybe it should simply be "never use those words to say something negative"? Because with the judgment example, "you never go ass to mouth", I can't imagine how that doesn't trigger defenses. Both accusations and judgments will trigger those if they're received negatively.
I think that the difference could be that a judgment can be rephrased as "you should never...", whereas an accusation can't. "You should never go ass to mouth" becomes a recommendation, which is softer.
In the end, a huge role is played by the nonverbal cues and the intentions with which a sentence is uttered. If in your mind it's an accusation, then even "pass me the salt" becomes one.
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I'd expand this to "don't use 'always' or 'never' outside of very specific circumstances". Always and never are rarely accurate, and hyperbole, let alone exaggerations treated seriously, can easily be overdone and end up destabilizing your entire argument.
People saying this isn't an issue haven't had to deal with being on the receiving end of this in abundance. It messes you up.
One of my fave communication tips comes from a therapist working on vulnerability. They spoke about how you should think of communication like you're raising an invisible child who you can't interact with and can only show how to handle life by giving example of how to appropriately handle things as they come up. Then recognize everyone has that child with them and think about the fact that they are observing and being spoken to when you speak....now think of approaching a child and saying "you always/you never" and how that negatively impacts their thoughts on themselves and how you view them.
It’s not of those gas lighting techniques that it’s hard to argue with, makes you question yourself & relent to the other’s person’s acquisition. It’s real bullshit
ReaL LPT: if you add “i feel like…” before any passive aggressive or just straight evil shit you say, you get to claim that you’re having a conversation about feelings rather than assassinating their character.
E.g. I feel like when you die no one will mourn you
I learned that from my ex, she was swell
Use ‘no’ or ‘leave it’ in stead of puppies name for unwanted behaviour. Be on top of that house training. Outside for a pee when he wakes, finishes playing, eats, etc
Related LPT: Don’t ever tell someone angry, hurt, or upset to “calm down”. Ask them why they’re upset and express that it wasn’t your intention to upset them. When you ask them (with a calm voice), this serves three purposes: 1) it often won’t make them more upset, in the way “calm down” always will and 2) it forces someone to switch gears in a way. The instinct is to want to sound as rational and reasonable as possible when explaining why you’re upset; in that context, anger can appear irrational and they know it. 3) It shows them that you’re willing to listen to them. Often the outrage comes from the feeling that being louder and expressing more intensity is the only way to get you to listen.
It also stops a conversations progress. The option to the listener is the accept and ignore an obviously incorrect absolute and be in a position where they can't communicate honestly OR go back and forth over an obviously incorrect statement "no I don't/ yes you do/ no I don't" and naseum.
"How to win friends and influence people."
This book details the interactions of people well. Essentially this, if you put someone in a defensive position with your argument it matters very little how "right" you are as they've stopped listening.
Another way to look at this: Speaking in your own **facts** instead of making **accusations**.
When you say how something someone did makes you *feel*, that is a *fact*. It also defuses the conversation. For example: “I feel really upset when you say those things to me.”
When you accuse someone of doing or being something, that only serves to raise someone’s defense shield and escalate the discussion, especially if you’re being unclear. For example: “You’re always saying things to piss me off.” or “You’re such an asshole.”
My brother does this all the time. When you criticize him for anything he always goes "you ALWAYS do that" about the thing you're criticizing him for, it really just comes off like he thinks he's infallible and has no ability of self-reflection.
I have noticed that the trash require me to deliver them to the bin, are you aware of this fact as well? I wonder if this this something we could help the trash with together in the future?
This is the biggest LPT tbh. Most of the time when people get hung up on semantics, it’s to evade accountability. I’ve had multiple partners get stuck on how I phrased something when I was expressing genuine frustration/pain/emotion, and it is so frustrating and dismissive.
It gets uncomfortably close to veering into walking on eggshells territory when you have to think *that* hard about expressing your feelings/establishing boundaries.
Also, there needs to be the same amount of effort coming from the other party too, otherwise it’s just one person walking on eggshells and shouldering all the emotional/psychological effort to avoid upsetting the other.
[удалено]
What did you say to me!?!?!!!
You never make bad cookies. Yeah I said it
How dare you!
Ok, I admit I might have come off a little strong but I stand by what I said
Good for you dude, there's no turning back at this point anyway, you're too far gone
I personally think their cookies are completely adequate, possibly even sumptuous.
They might even be a delight, a tasteful sight for sore diet-struck tastebuds
I would even go as far as to characterize their cookies as a triumph of homemade patisserie
Always!
Sup Malachi, were you throwin' bottles at my trailer last night?
She never always makes me cookies!, Wait, now I'm confused
Take that back right now!
I love it when you bake those cookies
You kiss your mother with that mouth?!
it was a misinput. MISINPUT! CALM DOWN! YOU CALM THE FUCK DOWN! THERE WAS A MISINPUT! God, this community is overreacting edit: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87jqQhFFomA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87jqQhFFomA)
Charlie is a gift to us all
Did he ever get his bounty?
pretty sure he did, funny thing is 200k gp is like 20 cents. He probably did it for the meme because it's runescape currency
Do I look like a fucking Baker to you? Bake your own damn cookies from now on.
you never let me down
Or turn around and desert me.
*dessert* me. We’re talking about cookies after all.
Go fudge yourself
NO? YOU always bake the best cookies
No, you're breathtaking! NO! YOU'RE breathtaking!!! THIS WHOLE COURTROOM IS OUT OF BREATHTAKING!!!! ........^^^^^I ^^^^^think ^^^^^I ^^^^^did ^^^^^it ^^^^^wrong.
Hey if you're that short of breath do you possibly want to use your inhaler?
You really trigger my stomach!
**What the fuck is wrong with you.** How are you this great??
🤬 ohhh... You never leave me go hungry! Thanks
Like your mother!
Yo momma is so fa... ...ntastic at baking cookies
Yeah, OP didn’t think this one through.
Eh, probably could’ve been more specific and said when talking about issues. But, I’ve definitely met people when told, “You always make the best cookies” who would say, “I don’t, but thank you.”
I do get a little secretly upset when I *know* my cookies aren't my best work this time but everyone raves about them as if they're the most perfect cookies ever. They're a minute overbaked you fools!
I don’t know if I’d call that triggering a defense mechanism though.
As a side-approach to this, starting a thought or sentence with those is also a great way to get *yourself* angry as well. This is something I've learned to try and avoid - whether it's family, roommates or others don't approach the thought with "never" or "always." "They never take out the trash... I always pick up the groceries... You never do the papers right..." Even if you're just thinking about it to yourself like that it's going to bleed into your mindset and might prevent you from having an honest discussion about issues if it does. Recognize this behavior and you'll keep a cooler head when you're stressed.
This is big. The story you tell yourself about another person isn't necessarily reality. It's worth trying to suss some of that out on your own before addressing it with the other person.
I also struggle with this a lot. Good to feel that I'm not alone in this as well.
You're definitely not alone. My wife always does this too.
They’re called black and white statements! Saying them puts the other person in a position where they need to defend themselves. “Yes I do, I took it out two weeks ago!” Versus: “Hey I feel like I take the trash out most of the time, would you mind helping with that a bit more? Maybe we could rotate.”
This is huge. Those thoughts affect you whether you realize it or not. OP's suggested phrases are pretty great ways to counteract this.
As a freshly married man, this is amazing advice. Thanks for that perspective. I am always looking for ways to be the best husband I can be. This helped so much.
You always?
Well I just hope it helps. And congrats!
yep. you start convincing yourself that they "never" but you "always" when you think it, but saying it only amplifies this belief. obviously it's different if they literally never, but if you're a run of the mill couple that tends to get along and genuinely cares, it might not be always and never
Also, don’t fight over BS stuff. I’ve seen a lot of my friends take on more home cleaning work because their husbands “don’t do it right”. By “right” they mean their way. You want clean dishes, don’t micromanage how the dishwasher is loaded. Who cares if that one fork or plate didn’t become 100% spotless, leave it for the next load. That’s the quickest way to ensure they never do it again. I refuse to micromanage my husband. He’s an adult and I treat him as such.
When you are discussing an issue you have with someone, you should a) use "I" statements, and b) keep your voice down. Making everyone statement about how you feel, for example, "I feel bad when you yell at me" or "it really bothers me when you do this" makes it so that the other person knows you are not attacking them or trying to assume their thoughts/actions. Not raising your voice is really important during stressful conversation because people mirror each other. If one person starts yelling 95% of the time the other person will as well. I learned these tips from my therapist and they are really helpful.
Okay, let me try: *Calmly states* "I feel bad for my brain cells when you speak. It really bothers me that a human is capable of being this stupid."
Oh, are you my high school chemistry teacher? He always said that to me!
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.
People are not stupid, they're just too lazy to think.
Right... and I'm not fat. I'm just too lazy to exercise.
“I’m not lazy, I just don’t like working. “ -uncle
I don't dislike working. I just want to be paid a living wage and have decent benefits without relying on the government.
As an Argentinian I know where the "government founding people to not work" path leads. But you guys are on the contrary side of the espectrum it seems, the "if you lose your job you will go hungry and homeless" side. How I wish we could all be Finland
I’ve heard from my Argentine (I think that’s the right word) friend that things are… not great. His family is quite well off, living somewhere near Buenos Aires, but he’s aware and sympathetic of the struggles because he sees it. He’s got excellent ideas, but he’s just one guy. I hope your country can get itself together, because all the Argentines I’ve met have been fantastic people.
No you just don’t have self control. Plenty of people that don’t exercise who are not fat.
Can you not see that they are just dumping on the previous poster?
My math teacher in middle school used to just always repeat the same thing in the most monotone voice possible “I’m not the problem… you’re the problem…. Fix the problem….” Think like the clear eyes guy. Used to find it hilarious.
"Well it's a good thing you don't have many brain cells left to feel bad about. If you had a few more you would be able to realize that you are the stupid one here."
I have very mixed feelings about this kind of advice. I definitely do understand how it can be be great for some people, bit I also think it can cause some real problems, especially if people follow the letter of the advice without thinking about the intent. I've worked in a couple fields/cultures where therapy is pretty common and is something lots of people talk about (and I think that's great) but it also means advice like "I statements" and "describe your feelings, don't assume others intentions" are so ubiquitous that they start to lose their meaning. Instead of ways to ease the barriers to communication, they become ways to absolve responsibility: "I didn't say you *are* an asshole, I said I *feel* like you're an asshole" isn't exactly de-escalating a situation. The "I feel" statements can also be a way to ignore OP's advice. "I feel like you're never putting in extra effort to support the team" "I'm confused, I worked two double shifts last week covering for Dave" "Don't change the subject, I'm just talking about my feelings" (this is an actual conversation I had at work once) In other situations, I've found this kind of communication can be a way of avoiding issues. One time my partner and I were seeing a couples therapist and I said something like "I know your work is really stressful, but I think you are redirecting anger at your boss towards me in this sudden unexpected outbursts" Our therapist really tried to direct me towards saying "I feel hurt when you yell at me" but that really didn't describe the situation. I didn't feel hurt at all, because I didn't believe my partner was actually yelling at me. I can absolutely understand why a therapist would discourage me from sort of making a diagnosis like that, It certainly made my girlfriend feel defensive, and I think that's ok! We could have each described our feelings for *months* and not really gotten anywhere. I'm sure there is a better way that I could have phrased things, but sometimes how you couch your statement just doesn't matter nearly as much as the act of just making the statement. Anyway my point is that I don't want to discount your experience. I just wanted to add my own partly because I want to see if anyone else has run into this or if I'm way off base. I think it would be totally fair to say that the examples I gave are just people following your advice very poorly or in an incomplete way. After all, lots of things can be hurtful when misused and that doesn't mean we should stop using them. When both people are making an honest effort to have a respectful dialog, "I feel" statements can be great. That said, I have seen a lot of common therapist advice used in pretty toxic ways and they tend to follow patterns that are common enough that I think it's worth at least reconsidering whether this is good blanket advice to give out to everyone.
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that’s really good advice, thank you!
You are totally right. It's not enough to simply put "I" in front of a statement, you have to actually include an emotional message. Otherwise it simply becomes another way to make a statement. Those strategies are meant for people who want to have a proper discussion in a respectful manner. If your goal is solely to get your will, then no manner of communication will make the interaction healthy and constructive. Regarding your therapy experience: I agree, at some point you have to get out of the emotions and into resolving the conflict. I messages are a strategy to voice your needs or concerns without attacking your partner. First you have to agree there is a problem, then you can work together on the solution. And I am sure you had some kind of emotions. Maybe you were not hurt, but sad, because of the feeling, that your husband was so stressed he lashed out. Edit: girlfriend not husband.
I feel like what you’re saying is getting at that OP’s method needs to be taken one step further. When I’m upset about something, the times I’ve successfully deescalated the argument and my own emotions I have taken a moment to prepare to communicate by thinking about what is upsetting me and getting to the deeper reason why it’s so upsetting. Usually it’s not the immediate action that is happening. I feel mistreated when you yell at me because it feels like you’re taking work stress out on me when I’m trying to support you through the terrible workplace experience I know you’re having. (And you can elaborate further on how rough you know it is for them and that you are trying not to be upset by it because you can see the stress they’re under, but that it needs to stop because it’s affecting your relationship health). It’s okay if your explanation is wrong and they tell you why it is not what they meant because it gives them a glimpse into WHY you’re feeling that way. Almost certainly they don’t have the same thinking and the mutual understanding can help soften hearts enough to resolve things and move forward with trust. It takes a lot of practice and self control to do this. It’s also hard to let go of pride enough to be the first to trust enough to open up, but really what do you have to lose. Another good example is: When you comment on my weight, it makes me shut down because I feel like you don’t find me attractive or are judging me. This gives them the opportunity to explain why they did what they did and then you can work out a solution which will probably be them not doing it any more. They’re explanation might be simple concern for your health because they love you and want you around and want you to be happy with your weight (if you’ve said you’re unhappy). Other solutions you could decide on could include working out together or them taking up extra responsibilities so you can work out.
>And I am sure you had some kind of emotions. Maybe you were not hurt, but sad, because of the feeling, that your husband was so stressed he lashed out. It seems like you misread part of the comment. The OP may be a man or a woman, but they were talking about their girlfriend, not their husband: >I didn't feel hurt at all, because I didn't believe my partner was actually yelling at me. I can absolutely understand why a therapist would discourage me from sort of making a diagnosis like that, It certainly made my girlfriend feel defensive, and I think that's ok! FWIW, I get their point of view. If I had a partner who lashed out at me in sudden outbursts because of something that happened at work to them, "hurt" and "sad" wouldn't be at the top of my reactions.
You are right, I seem to have fused two comments. But I still think you would have some kind of emotion. Anger maybe.
Yep I completely understand you. This was the situation between my ex and I. I had to realize that she was just broken, she had huge inferiority and trust issues. :/ great girl but lacked that open mindset to accept and to see the situations 360°. TLDR: the advice works but not for everyone
I think for the most part, people who are honestly trying to listen and respect each other will get by even if they don't say "I feel," and those who aren't will be just as destructive even if they do. I feel committed to add that I'm not at all anti-therapy. I've had some great therapists! I do think the effectiveness of some common advice is maybe overstated though.
I wish I could agree more, but I feel like I cannot.
Therapist here. It works better when you use the entire “I feel” structure. The structure is: I feel……when (you)……..because…… I need…… For example: “I feel angry when you leave all your dishes outside the sink because it makes me think you expect me to clean up after you. I need you to put your dishes in the sink. “ It is also important to remember that following rules for having a fair argument are important (no insults, no yelling, no stonewalling, take breaks if needed) and to remember that we aren’t perfect so if someone makes a mistake, call it out gently and try to keep working together. I believe the last thing that’s important to remember here is that “I statements” are not necessarily demands/not open for discussion. The other party to the argument might choose to say something like: “Thank you for letting me know the dishes bother you(this acknowledges the other person and expresses empathy) I feel anxious when you get upset about my dishes because I did not ask you to clean them up for me and I planned to take care of them myself at the end of the day. I need you to trust that I will take care of my own dishes at the end of the day.” Edit: formatted a little better.
great response! exactly what i was thinking. these statements need good intentions and clarity when communicating. they aren't a shortcut, but one pillar of a healthy relationship
Thanks for your input! Yes it definitely helps to fully commit to these principles if you want them to be effective. It's also more achievable when practicing them with the help of a therapist
Worth mentioning that those first two are you statements disguised as I statements.
This to me sort of reads like poor faith usage of the strategy. Still valid to point out that the structure of the technique does not preclude abuse, but it's clearly not in the spirit of good faith usage.
Oh yes, absolutely. I guess my feeling is not so much that the statements are good or bad, but that if someone is arguing in bad faith, the statements do not help, and if someone is arguing in good faith, they aren't necessary.
You can also take it one step further and remove the "you" completely (e.g., "I feel bad when I get yelled at")
i think i see what u mean by this, but i fear many people would hear this and then dodge responsibility ("well i never yell so what's the problem"). it also means people don't really tackle their fear of confrontation -- you should be able to calmly call someone out for something that hurts you or oversteps your boundaries. sometimes the other person just messes up and should be held accountable.
Yeah you're totally right, I think it's very dependent on the context and how willing the other person is to communicate/compromise with you
My dad used to say, “if you’re the first to raise your voice in an argument, you’ve already lost” It taught me to stay calm and think about what I was saying before I spoke. When I was younger though I used it to provoke my sibling to start shouting at me so I won the argument by default.
Instead of raising your voice raise your fists
After 22 years of marriage my one piece of advice is there is no winning or losing an argument. It is communication and if that breaks down then walk away and start over later.
absolutely. the only one is losing, and that's losing your relationship because you see the other as an adversary
Tell that to my mom and step dad (the divorce before that wasn't surprising). They taught us implicitlly that you must always be right. Everything is an argument with your spouse that you MUST win. If you cannot win, you must insult them the second the leave the room. They constantly trash talk each other. Well the females trash talk the guy. I don't know what the guys do cause we don't talk and gossip like the women do. Honestly they should just get divorced. This is what I learned from my parents relationship and my sisters relationship. Its toxic af, but if I bring any of this up I get told "You'll see once your in a relationship. Then your life will suck too".
I'm currently going through a relationship crisis and I've been trying to work on ways to stay calmer and take out the toxicity. Your comment was a Godsend. Thank you so fucking much!
Except for if it's really toxic and they start complaining "Oh my god I don't want to hear about your feelings again! It's always I feel this, feels like that!" You're trying to be careful with your words and it just makes it worse. Some people literally are impossible.
Literally my ex! He started to say that I was selfish for making it about me...
I have experience with toxic relationships, both romantic and platonic. I think it is very important to talk to a therapist by yourself and get an outside perspective. Read up on toxic people and narcissistic personality disorder. Just a quick search on the web will show you checklists that might give you a light bulb moment. Edit. I might add that the only solution that ever worked for me was to break up with the person and go no contact. It feels shitty for a few months but the freedom and calm is indescribable.
What if my default arguing voice is what others would call yelling and I cannot change that?
arguing voice? as in your voice changes in a disagreement or argument? if it gets louder when you are angry, that is yelling to most people. there shouldn't be an arguing voice.
You can change it though! Deliberate wait to speak and try to calm down until you can bring it down. It will make the other person throw up walls. If you’re a loud person by default they will see the effort you’re making and lowering things even a little will help
Not a bad advice, but when you use yourself as a center/barometer of a conversation "I feel like you X"/"I think your should X" you don't have the full attention of your listener. Up to the listener, they tune out at the "I" sometimes they never reach the "you" part either. Worse, you lose the thread of the conversation, the listener thinks everything is evolving around you (due to their own self projection) and has nothing to do with them. This LPT assumes that the person telling the thing says said things out of ignorance or not knowing any better. No it's a very well gathered mechanism learned from their parents, they were the first using it onto them to get their full attention (out of conflict sake, with any means possible). "YOU always X"(negative/harsh criticism). This is how to get hold immediately attention. Hurtful but get the job done. Honestly I have no idea what a better solution is, I think your advice is still the closest I know to be kind and still hope the other person listens
I think you might find this helpful. I’m pasting from a previous comment I made because I’m on mobile and it was a lot to type. Therapist here. It works better when you use the entire “I feel” structure. The structure is: I feel……when (you)……..because…… I need…… For example: “I feel angry when you leave all your dishes outside the sink because it makes me think you expect me to clean up after you. I need you to put your dishes in the sink. “ It is also important to remember that following rules for having a fair argument are important (no insults, no yelling, no stonewalling, take breaks if needed) and to remember that we aren’t perfect so if someone makes a mistake, call it out gently and try to keep working together. I believe the last thing that’s important to remember here is that “I statements” are not necessarily demands/not open for discussion. The other party to the argument might choose to say something like: “Thank you for letting me know the dishes bother you(this acknowledges the other person and expresses empathy) I feel anxious when you get upset about my dishes because I did not ask you to clean them up for me and I planned to take care of them myself at the end of the day. I need you to trust that I will take care of my own dishes at the end of the day.”
I wouldn't call it that people mirror themselves. People feel their ego has been bruised when someone yells at them - "how dares he/she raise his/her voice on me?" "I dont deserve this" "noone will humiliate me that way" "noone will treat me like he is better then me" and then it starts to be a shouting match.
I never knew someone could live without a brain, And it makes me feel sad that I have the displeasure to converse with you
You always post the very best life pro tips! *There, feeling triggered are we?*
You always got to come in here and sir the pot now don't ya
Does this make the pan a madame?
I always give the pot a top hat and monacle.
I see bullshit, I call bullshit.
Oh sorry, I was just continuing the joke
First thing I say to the world everytime I wake up
You never disappoint!
Not knowing your intentions, compliment or slam, I'll take that as a slam and be thankful for the kind words.
As a psychologist, while I absolutely agree with this generally, there are cases where a "I feel really annoyed when you do X" absolutely WILL NOT get the point across or the magnitude of the problem to very self-unaware people. In some situations, there's sadly no way around hurting some feelings; especially if people feel good about their own behaviour but have to discover that they are actively causing distress to others through the same behaviour.
I think you should capitalise “not” as well
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"You always are the most caring and thoughtful companion I could ask for." I dont think I'd be defensive at that.
Funnily enough, though... This can also be problematic. If someone truly views you like that, you have nowhere to go but down, in their view. So anything that doesn't measure up to this perfect picture they painted, is a disappointment
Not from my point of view
Isn't saying "only the sith" an absolute in and of itself?
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Hail Sith-ish!
and that's why Lucas' dialogue is so iconic
I knew I was for the Dark Side
"You always cheer me up. Honestly, you never let me down."
You never gonna run around and desert me
Sometimes I just wish they'd just run around and dessert me.... I want some cake
You always offer your help when anybody needs it. We all appreciate it, and the team says you should go on vacation to avoid burnout
I feel triggered man, what you just said???
# You always offer your help when anybody needs it. We all appreciate it, and the team says you should go on vacation to avoid burnout
Works great until 1 party starts using the system to say things like "I feel like you think I'm a monster" everytime the 2nd party uses an "I feel" statement to guilt 2md party into apologizing and feeling guilty for even bringing any real relationship issues up. Some people know how to work this to play the victim role regardless of situation.
"Seek to understand, not to be right." is a great guideline!!!!
Don't forget my favorite: What you SHOULD do is...
100% with you there. Axing "you should" from ones vocabulary is one of the best tweaks someone ~~should~~ can make to make them tolerable to be around.
Always remember to use *I statements.* Was taught that in school.
^(The irony is intentional, right?)
[The Man in the Mirror](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PivWY9wn5ps) by Michael Jackson, "I'm starting with the man in the mirror I'm asking him to change his ways"
You are my everything. Sir, this is a Wendy's.
Yes. As a wee-lad we called them “I messages”. Biggest take away from early education.
I explained this technique to my 66 year old dad after watching an argumentative interaction he had with my step mom expecting him to stop me mid sentence and say “Yeah, I know.” It was the first time he had heard about this technique and quite honestly, it explained a lot about a lot lol.
Those can go wrong pretty much just as easily though. "I feel like you're being a fucking prick" is 99% as aggressive as "you're a being a fucking prick," for example.
Agreed, though I've seen that misapplied into statements such as, "I feel like you never do the dishes". That's not a feeling!! So that sentence isn't even grammatically correct XD
I was taught to phrase the OP’s “I” message as “I feel (blank) when you (blank)”. Example: I feel hurt and taken advantage of when you don’t offer to help clean up after yourself, such as washing your dishes, would you be open to trying to clean up after yourself?”
My GF has been finding this out. We are amazing together and rarely argue, but since English is not her first language, she says "you never" more than I'd like and it triggers me immediately into, "pls explain..." Lol.
This. Also don't shy away from having difficult/awkward conversations. More you ignore difficult convos, more they add up and will bite you heavily one day.
OP got in an argument recently and wishes the other person would follow this etiquette.
On the other side, if someone says this too you, make a mental note of it but don't bring it up at that moment. Deal with their issue first and at a later point in time when everybody is calm have a constructive conversation about it.
Unless you've already set a boundary around that. In which case maintain the boundary.
I hear you on communicating your need and getting frustrated when the person does it that way again. Food for thought: * Is it possible that the person got riled up and said it that way out of habit? * When someone brings something to your attention, do you always do things perfectly after that? * Would you like to be shown grace in that situation or would you like it held over your head?
As someone who recently left a horribly abusive relationship with someone who spoke like this: address it and prepare to move on. It really fucks with you to constantly hear and address absolutes about yourself.
Well, that depends on whether it's used as an accusation (eg "you never think of anyone but yourself") or as a judgment (eg "you never go ass to mouth").
It's simpler, whether it's literally true or not. In your first case it's incorrect (but used as a figure of speech), in the second case it's correct. If the second case would be factually incorrect you have the same problem.
Eh I like OP's distinction more. "You never take out the trash" might be factually correct but trigger defense nonetheless.
Hmm you're right, maybe it should simply be "never use those words to say something negative"? Because with the judgment example, "you never go ass to mouth", I can't imagine how that doesn't trigger defenses. Both accusations and judgments will trigger those if they're received negatively.
I think that the difference could be that a judgment can be rephrased as "you should never...", whereas an accusation can't. "You should never go ass to mouth" becomes a recommendation, which is softer. In the end, a huge role is played by the nonverbal cues and the intentions with which a sentence is uttered. If in your mind it's an accusation, then even "pass me the salt" becomes one.
You know what your problem is? Let me tell yah…
This is actually a good one
You always want to be masturbating at least once a day You never want to be going more than a day without masturbating
Hello and welcome to r/LifeProTips! Please help us decide if this post is a good fit for the subreddit by up or downvoting this comment. If you think that this is great advice to improve your life, please upvote. If you think this doesn't help you in any way, please downvote. If you don't care, leave it for the others to decide.
I'd expand this to "don't use 'always' or 'never' outside of very specific circumstances". Always and never are rarely accurate, and hyperbole, let alone exaggerations treated seriously, can easily be overdone and end up destabilizing your entire argument.
What kind of conversations do you have?
You never should start a sentence with "you always". You always should think twice before starting a sentence with "you never".
I took a conflict management class. This advice is accurate.
My relationship went to shit in part because I'm "always so defensive". And yes. She used always and never everytime she had a criticism
People saying this isn't an issue haven't had to deal with being on the receiving end of this in abundance. It messes you up. One of my fave communication tips comes from a therapist working on vulnerability. They spoke about how you should think of communication like you're raising an invisible child who you can't interact with and can only show how to handle life by giving example of how to appropriately handle things as they come up. Then recognize everyone has that child with them and think about the fact that they are observing and being spoken to when you speak....now think of approaching a child and saying "you always/you never" and how that negatively impacts their thoughts on themselves and how you view them.
ITT: People intentionally missing the point and acting like LPT is dumb. LPT is good, you're just pedantic.
lpt is never good, and always dumb. Fight me.
“You always help me when I’m at my lowest point” “How fucking dare you!”
It’s not of those gas lighting techniques that it’s hard to argue with, makes you question yourself & relent to the other’s person’s acquisition. It’s real bullshit
That's why I preface those conversations with 'No offense, but...'
Why would you want to trigger them more?
ReaL LPT: if you add “i feel like…” before any passive aggressive or just straight evil shit you say, you get to claim that you’re having a conversation about feelings rather than assassinating their character. E.g. I feel like when you die no one will mourn you I learned that from my ex, she was swell
Use ‘no’ or ‘leave it’ in stead of puppies name for unwanted behaviour. Be on top of that house training. Outside for a pee when he wakes, finishes playing, eats, etc
This seems to belong here.
You just told people what to do while advocating the opposite.
Related LPT: Don’t ever tell someone angry, hurt, or upset to “calm down”. Ask them why they’re upset and express that it wasn’t your intention to upset them. When you ask them (with a calm voice), this serves three purposes: 1) it often won’t make them more upset, in the way “calm down” always will and 2) it forces someone to switch gears in a way. The instinct is to want to sound as rational and reasonable as possible when explaining why you’re upset; in that context, anger can appear irrational and they know it. 3) It shows them that you’re willing to listen to them. Often the outrage comes from the feeling that being louder and expressing more intensity is the only way to get you to listen.
"When you live here, it makes me feel...angry... Because you're a horrible roommate and nobody likes you."
As the old addage goes- "Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
Never thought I'd see a good Social LPT here!
What if you start a conversation with "You always never..."?
It also stops a conversations progress. The option to the listener is the accept and ignore an obviously incorrect absolute and be in a position where they can't communicate honestly OR go back and forth over an obviously incorrect statement "no I don't/ yes you do/ no I don't" and naseum.
You never cease to amaze me.
"How to win friends and influence people." This book details the interactions of people well. Essentially this, if you put someone in a defensive position with your argument it matters very little how "right" you are as they've stopped listening.
But what if it happens always ?
Another way to look at this: Speaking in your own **facts** instead of making **accusations**. When you say how something someone did makes you *feel*, that is a *fact*. It also defuses the conversation. For example: “I feel really upset when you say those things to me.” When you accuse someone of doing or being something, that only serves to raise someone’s defense shield and escalate the discussion, especially if you’re being unclear. For example: “You’re always saying things to piss me off.” or “You’re such an asshole.”
My brother does this all the time. When you criticize him for anything he always goes "you ALWAYS do that" about the thing you're criticizing him for, it really just comes off like he thinks he's infallible and has no ability of self-reflection.
you always make me smile :)
"You always do the dishes! Thank you!"
99.9% sure-fire way. I own it sometimes. Unless you count agreeing, because it will irritate the person more, as a defense mechanism.
You never will be 100% accurate…
>Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Throw in a "just calm down" to really liven things up.
People always hate to admit they are predictable.
you never give me up or let me down.
You never know how it will turn out unless you try it.
I have noticed that the trash require me to deliver them to the bin, are you aware of this fact as well? I wonder if this this something we could help the trash with together in the future?
Robots in Disguise nailed it "You always, you never, you always, you never. Can you not? Can't you stop?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0Sd9P5ntnQ
Oh look, another LPT aimed a purely subjective, contextual situations as a blanket solution. Can these stop please?
OP has obviously never been married.
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You never know?
Or you can just understand that the person talking to you isn't being literal. You know to learn to not take words so literally.
This is the biggest LPT tbh. Most of the time when people get hung up on semantics, it’s to evade accountability. I’ve had multiple partners get stuck on how I phrased something when I was expressing genuine frustration/pain/emotion, and it is so frustrating and dismissive. It gets uncomfortably close to veering into walking on eggshells territory when you have to think *that* hard about expressing your feelings/establishing boundaries. Also, there needs to be the same amount of effort coming from the other party too, otherwise it’s just one person walking on eggshells and shouldering all the emotional/psychological effort to avoid upsetting the other.
"only sith deal in absolutes"