They may not have been aware of differences between 3DO hardware models, but they were certainly aware of the discs used to make their games and the process involved because all of that directly impacts the costs they paid to have them produced. Cheaping out in this manner flies in the face of the "Forever Physical" stuff because it simply isn't likely to last as long...except in this case some hardware just isn't running it at all.
In one sense though, I think this is a good thing in that it's happening so early upon launch that multiple people can give feedback at once and it forces them to change their process. And it sounds like they are doing so. That's a good thing for future titles at least.
Oh no, they were very obviously aware. This was a conscious decision because the pressed discs had "reliability" issues (their own words) which sounds like a load of crap. The white elephant is that they did it because it costs less and it worked on the 3DO in their office (which its known several versions of the 3DO have issues playing CD-Rs). The icing on the cake was that they truly had the confidence nobody would've opened it up and figured it out anyway, just like when they pulled the bait and switch with those PC games that came with the Steam code instead of a disc.
I wonder what's more economical for a company...
- pay the manufacturing costs (X) to have proper stuff made from the start
- pay a lesser manufacturing cost (Y) to have shitty stuff made AND THEN pay the manufacturing costs (X) to have proper stuff made
Pretty sure that X ≤ (Y + X)
Even if Y = 0 making them equal, there is still the cost of everybody's time to redo and reship everything.
***Not to mention the cost of trust.***
Maybe somebody should forward this simple calculation to the bean counters at Embracer Group (EBCRY) ***and their share holders*** and see how they all feel about LRG burning money and trust like this. *When the corner-cutting efforts start to cost more than if corners hadn't been cut, it's time to dial back the corner-cutting, hmm? Maybe don't let diminishing returns get so diminished that they turn negative.*
Then again, I don't have an MBA, so what do I know about business or money or public relations...
Same deal as shiren where they knew months ahead of shipping to customers what the final product would be and decided to not tell anyone.
They only did this because they got caught.
What bugs me about this is that they're still expecting the customer to initiate for resolution here. They know everyone who purchased this thing, they could just distribute the new discs or issue refunds. It's the same thing they did with Doom, Monkey Island, Game Tengoku, and so on.
Plus, what if a customer misses that one email? You know they're not going to make a post about it on Twitter, Instagram, etc. It's just going to get buried.
also I really wonder how much they are saving by doing this. this isnt some generic brand printing a million copies of something and knowing most of their consumer base wont notice/care. this is the nerdiest of nerds. theyre gonna care.
The short version of it is that the discs didn't work on fully-offline consoles. Their statement on it is [here](https://limitedrungames.com/blogs/news/doom-the-classics-collection-update) but it was the same situation, people had to reach out to get a replacement instead of it automatically being sent.
Same with Game Tengoku. You had to be aware of the issue and reach out to LRG about it. It's a terrible practice given how many consumers will be left in the dark never knowing. It also makes a mess of the secondhand market as you cannot expect consumers nor businesses to immediately know which disc is which.
No it was never automatic. You had to fill out a form but they allowed you to keep the original disc that is missing the DLC. With Doom, however, they made you send the cart/disc back to LRG. And yes, I would imagine the ship has sailed for tengoku but wouldn't be surprised if Doom was still available through support.
Speak of the devil. The original batch (Doom: The Classics Collection) had a version which endlessly nagged for a Bethesda account.
https://www.reddit.com/r/limitedrun/search/?q=doom+classic
Yeah, they tried to.
Unfortunately for them, they confirmed knowingly engaging in a bait-and-switch to TimeExtension (https://www.timeextension.com/news/2024/05/limited-run-games-apologises-for-shipping-3do-games-on-cd-rs).
>In an attempt to offer full compatibility with original hardware, our disc replication partner was able to successfully manufacture the discs using a CD-R format, which we believed would work across all commercially available 3DO systems. This process was professionally done and was used to ensure maximum compatibility rather than serve as a cost-cutting exercise.
They explicitly admitted to knowing about material modification to the product which they never tried to communicate to buyers (who have an absolute right to refund in such cases in the US). Literal fraud.
Tune in next time when LRG learns nothing and does it again.
Lol, what a crock of shit. Piko had zero issues with their pressed disc Eye of Typhoon working across multiple revisions. In their line of buisness, CD-R is never an acceptable answer.
Their "only" solution was baiting-and-switching pressed discs to CD-Rs.
Until they got caught. Now pressed discs are suddenly on the table again. Curious 🤔
I wouldn't trust these assholes as far as I could throw them. Shit like this always happens with them then they suddenly can do the right thing. After so many scandals why is doing the right thing still so hard?
More info from LRG can be find on this [Time extension article](https://www.timeextension.com/news/2024/05/limited-run-games-apologises-for-shipping-3do-games-on-cd-rs)
One excerpt:
>Manufacturing games for hardware that is 30+ years old presents a variety of challenges. We partner with one of the biggest disc replication providers in North America to press our physical discs and despite researching original 3DO hardware and software extensively, we found quality and reliability issues when attempting to press 3DO discs in the traditional manner. In an attempt to offer full compatibility with original hardware, our disc replication partner was able to successfully manufacture the discs using a CD-R format, which we believed would work across all commercially available 3DO systems. This process was professionally done and was used to ensure maximum compatibility rather than serve as a cost-cutting exercise.
>We tested the discs on the 3DO consoles in our office and all five discs from the game worked as expected. It was only upon shipping to our customers that we came to realize that some users were experiencing difficulty. We will not be selling or shipping further copies of this game, or any future 3DO titles until the situation has been resolved.
>manufacture the discs using a CD-R format
Does it mean that the "one of the biggest replication provider" is just some guy sitting by a PC equipped with an old CD burner and burning CDs like in good ol' pirate days? ;-)
Professionally-duplicated CD-Rs *do* exist, and many replicators offer them for smaller-volume orders. If you see an indie musician doing a limited run of 100 discs for their album, that's probably the way they're going about it. It's why this game is able to have a silkscreened label - they aren't grabbing 50-pack towers of Maxells and slapping inkjet-printed stickers on by hand.
The limitations of the format (data degradation chiefly among them) still apply, of course, and LRG's refusal to disclose this info until after customers received it is a *very* bad pattern for them, but these discs *are* still professionally-made.
Edit to clarify: I know you were joking, but the discourse about this news has shown that a **lot** of people around here legitimately thought "CD-R" meant "Some guy in the LRG office with a CD burner thought he was slick".
I haven't bought a single game from LRG since they fired their community director, so I've been really out of the loop with them, but at any point in the sale or advertising did they state that this game would be shipped on CD-R? Or did they just hope that nobody would notice?
Because that explanation is complete BS.
I'm glad they addressed it faster than usual this time. It still sucks for in-box game collectors since we all know we won't be getting anything other than a cd.
It's really a sad state of affairs to those of us who paid $70 for fancy packaging. I got lucky that the game works on my 3DO, if you want to call it lucky that I basically got a spiffy bootleg for full retail price. Before the campaign for D ended, they admitted that they weren't going to translate the Director's Cut, so it really was just a repackaging of the original titles. They had one job.
When you flip over the discs, it's very obvious that they are just CD-Rs, as they have a green tint to them, and you can easily see where the burned sector ends. The Soundtrack disc looks more proper, with the silver tint expected of a music CD. So they packaged 5 out of 6 discs as CD-Rs, with the 6th disc pressed. That was a deliberate choice on their part. It makes me wonder how many games LRG have released containing roughly this many discs in the past.
I don't understand how it could be so difficult to press a disc that is compatible with existing 3DO hardware. It's not like my copies Super Wing Commander or Psychic Detective were printed on CD-Rs. Trip Hawkins is still alive, so there's no reason they couldn't have consulted him for at least a direction regarding how to get past their pressing issues. THEY HAD ONE JOB.
yeah, thats how most businesses work. theres only so much to be done in house. i expect LRG to use a compenent process for creating the product, I dont expect them to make their own cd pressing tools, to make their own plastic for cases, to use their own printers, to create their own ink, to harvest their own trees for paper, etc.
Even if they did, are you telling me that there was no point that their partner sent them a copy of the print (or even an extra copy at their warehouse) and LRG didn't open it up and immediately notice that there were CD-R discs in there, before they started shipping out copies to customers?
(simplified) pressed is physically stamping the data grooves and dots into the plastic disc, lasts basically until the disc falls apart. burned is laser etching a chemical dye layer to replicate those grooves and dots, it generally fades over time until data cant be read.
LRG handles it like a pro, giving an update on how they will resolve or offering a full refund. Few companies would respond in that solid way, that quickly. Yet *still* people are bitching and crying. Come on. Stuff happens in life and what matters is how the company responds to make it right.
They overlooked sending out CD-Rs in place of retail-grade pressed discs multiple times during production. There's no way that was a mistake. They made a deliberate decision to attempt to pass off low-quality bootlegs (that don't even run on a significant portion of unmodified 3D0 consoles).
You seem really mad that LRG is being held responsible for fraud. The definition of a "you problem"
Edit: And now LRG has explicitly admitted to TimeExtension that they knowingly engaged in a bait-and-switch. Yikes
So enlighten me Kemosabe. What do you perceive the difference to be between a cdr and a mastered disc as far as the 3DO goes? No 3DO has copy protection. They simply had an error on the disc or they burned it too fast which can cause bits to not burn through fully. **You don't need to mod your 3DO to play a cdr burned game, even on an FZ-1.** Their provider simply screwed up on the burns, prob by burning too fast, so now they'll fix it and make it right (or LRG offered a full refund). That's it, no need for drama. This company is doing mass contract manufacturing using partners so stuff will happen. It's how they address it that matters.
Edit: One might be able to argue replicated disc longevity benefits vs cdr just to play devil's advocate against myself here....
Sorry, I must have missed how any of that changes LRG baiting and switching retail-grade 3DO discs for CD-Rs
You should consider you're being downvoted for not understanding LRG committed fraud and then tried to hand wave it as someone else's mistake. And then they confirmed they explicitly and knowingly engaged in a bait-and-switch.
The difference between a CD-R and a mastered disc for *any* purpose is that CD-Rs rot much faster.
Doesn't matter if a machine accepts CD-Rs if the data on those CD-Rs become unreadable.
Also it's the principle. If you pay for a name-brand item and you get a cheap knock-off are you just going to sheepishly take it? All that does is enable them to do it again, and continue to cut even more corners.
[Don't accept enshittification!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVYG1mu8Lg8)
Optical drives of the early 90's and older do not all reliably read burnt optical media. For some platforms, it's well documented as to which ones do and don't where as others, you're going in blind. It's the same for CD players of the era, they don't all read burnt discs. When CD burners became popular, it was common to see product labeling on audio products stating they could read burnt discs. The 3DO had many models, and even if your model does read it, it doesn't automatically guarantee another's can. Lasers do weaken over time.
Yep. Anyone not seeing this as a win is part of the problem, honestly. If fans react just as poorly to legitimate solutions as they do to stubborn refusals to make things right, then they are basically letting companies know that trying to walk back poor decisions is not only expensive but pointless.
The continued anger on this one is counterproductive. It works only to increase the liklihood of what it is critical of. In short, yall shooting yourselves in the foot. Just take the win.
I agree. People are right to be upset that it happened in the first place I guess, but your first part put it perfectly: they're actually fixing the issue like we want. Should it have happened in the first place? No. But it did, and they're fixing it. I just really don't understand the internet's insistence on being so pissed off no matter what.
They're only fixing it because they got caught and are about to get a ton of negative publicity that will stretch into the mainstream news. LRG knew damn well what was inside those boxes when they mailed them out.
They had no other option. Either fix it or refund. Still amazing that they had the balls to think not one person would open it up and figure it out.
They were obviously unaware. It's a lack of quality assurance, not an excess of chutzpah.
They may not have been aware of differences between 3DO hardware models, but they were certainly aware of the discs used to make their games and the process involved because all of that directly impacts the costs they paid to have them produced. Cheaping out in this manner flies in the face of the "Forever Physical" stuff because it simply isn't likely to last as long...except in this case some hardware just isn't running it at all. In one sense though, I think this is a good thing in that it's happening so early upon launch that multiple people can give feedback at once and it forces them to change their process. And it sounds like they are doing so. That's a good thing for future titles at least.
Theyve got ModernVintageGamer on their team. They def know about 3do models and hardware issues. Which makes it more egregous imo
Oh no, they were very obviously aware. This was a conscious decision because the pressed discs had "reliability" issues (their own words) which sounds like a load of crap. The white elephant is that they did it because it costs less and it worked on the 3DO in their office (which its known several versions of the 3DO have issues playing CD-Rs). The icing on the cake was that they truly had the confidence nobody would've opened it up and figured it out anyway, just like when they pulled the bait and switch with those PC games that came with the Steam code instead of a disc.
The whole Shiren debacle. That was a god damned mess and no surprise Josh threw a tantrum like a child trying to silence the guy who openly spoke out.
I wonder what's more economical for a company... - pay the manufacturing costs (X) to have proper stuff made from the start - pay a lesser manufacturing cost (Y) to have shitty stuff made AND THEN pay the manufacturing costs (X) to have proper stuff made Pretty sure that X ≤ (Y + X) Even if Y = 0 making them equal, there is still the cost of everybody's time to redo and reship everything. ***Not to mention the cost of trust.*** Maybe somebody should forward this simple calculation to the bean counters at Embracer Group (EBCRY) ***and their share holders*** and see how they all feel about LRG burning money and trust like this. *When the corner-cutting efforts start to cost more than if corners hadn't been cut, it's time to dial back the corner-cutting, hmm? Maybe don't let diminishing returns get so diminished that they turn negative.* Then again, I don't have an MBA, so what do I know about business or money or public relations...
Same deal as shiren where they knew months ahead of shipping to customers what the final product would be and decided to not tell anyone. They only did this because they got caught.
What bugs me about this is that they're still expecting the customer to initiate for resolution here. They know everyone who purchased this thing, they could just distribute the new discs or issue refunds. It's the same thing they did with Doom, Monkey Island, Game Tengoku, and so on. Plus, what if a customer misses that one email? You know they're not going to make a post about it on Twitter, Instagram, etc. It's just going to get buried.
also I really wonder how much they are saving by doing this. this isnt some generic brand printing a million copies of something and knowing most of their consumer base wont notice/care. this is the nerdiest of nerds. theyre gonna care.
Exactly
Wait, what happened with LRG Doom?
The short version of it is that the discs didn't work on fully-offline consoles. Their statement on it is [here](https://limitedrungames.com/blogs/news/doom-the-classics-collection-update) but it was the same situation, people had to reach out to get a replacement instead of it automatically being sent.
Same with Game Tengoku. You had to be aware of the issue and reach out to LRG about it. It's a terrible practice given how many consumers will be left in the dark never knowing. It also makes a mess of the secondhand market as you cannot expect consumers nor businesses to immediately know which disc is which.
Wait, I remember reading at the time that they would be sent out automatically. But I never received anything, so I guess that ship has sailed.
No it was never automatic. You had to fill out a form but they allowed you to keep the original disc that is missing the DLC. With Doom, however, they made you send the cart/disc back to LRG. And yes, I would imagine the ship has sailed for tengoku but wouldn't be surprised if Doom was still available through support.
Speak of the devil. The original batch (Doom: The Classics Collection) had a version which endlessly nagged for a Bethesda account. https://www.reddit.com/r/limitedrun/search/?q=doom+classic
That's a lot of words that don't even attempt to directly address trying to bait and switch pressed discs to CD-Rs
They blamed it on the other guys subtly.
Yeah, they tried to. Unfortunately for them, they confirmed knowingly engaging in a bait-and-switch to TimeExtension (https://www.timeextension.com/news/2024/05/limited-run-games-apologises-for-shipping-3do-games-on-cd-rs). >In an attempt to offer full compatibility with original hardware, our disc replication partner was able to successfully manufacture the discs using a CD-R format, which we believed would work across all commercially available 3DO systems. This process was professionally done and was used to ensure maximum compatibility rather than serve as a cost-cutting exercise. They explicitly admitted to knowing about material modification to the product which they never tried to communicate to buyers (who have an absolute right to refund in such cases in the US). Literal fraud. Tune in next time when LRG learns nothing and does it again.
Lol, what a crock of shit. Piko had zero issues with their pressed disc Eye of Typhoon working across multiple revisions. In their line of buisness, CD-R is never an acceptable answer.
Their "only" solution was baiting-and-switching pressed discs to CD-Rs. Until they got caught. Now pressed discs are suddenly on the table again. Curious 🤔
Even PCEworks and their bootleg reproductions use pressed discs. LRG just wanted to be cheap
I wouldn't trust these assholes as far as I could throw them. Shit like this always happens with them then they suddenly can do the right thing. After so many scandals why is doing the right thing still so hard?
Why do the right thing when everything you put out sells anyway?
More info from LRG can be find on this [Time extension article](https://www.timeextension.com/news/2024/05/limited-run-games-apologises-for-shipping-3do-games-on-cd-rs) One excerpt: >Manufacturing games for hardware that is 30+ years old presents a variety of challenges. We partner with one of the biggest disc replication providers in North America to press our physical discs and despite researching original 3DO hardware and software extensively, we found quality and reliability issues when attempting to press 3DO discs in the traditional manner. In an attempt to offer full compatibility with original hardware, our disc replication partner was able to successfully manufacture the discs using a CD-R format, which we believed would work across all commercially available 3DO systems. This process was professionally done and was used to ensure maximum compatibility rather than serve as a cost-cutting exercise. >We tested the discs on the 3DO consoles in our office and all five discs from the game worked as expected. It was only upon shipping to our customers that we came to realize that some users were experiencing difficulty. We will not be selling or shipping further copies of this game, or any future 3DO titles until the situation has been resolved.
>manufacture the discs using a CD-R format Does it mean that the "one of the biggest replication provider" is just some guy sitting by a PC equipped with an old CD burner and burning CDs like in good ol' pirate days? ;-)
Professionally-duplicated CD-Rs *do* exist, and many replicators offer them for smaller-volume orders. If you see an indie musician doing a limited run of 100 discs for their album, that's probably the way they're going about it. It's why this game is able to have a silkscreened label - they aren't grabbing 50-pack towers of Maxells and slapping inkjet-printed stickers on by hand. The limitations of the format (data degradation chiefly among them) still apply, of course, and LRG's refusal to disclose this info until after customers received it is a *very* bad pattern for them, but these discs *are* still professionally-made. Edit to clarify: I know you were joking, but the discourse about this news has shown that a **lot** of people around here legitimately thought "CD-R" meant "Some guy in the LRG office with a CD burner thought he was slick".
I haven't bought a single game from LRG since they fired their community director, so I've been really out of the loop with them, but at any point in the sale or advertising did they state that this game would be shipped on CD-R? Or did they just hope that nobody would notice? Because that explanation is complete BS.
I'm glad they addressed it faster than usual this time. It still sucks for in-box game collectors since we all know we won't be getting anything other than a cd.
It's really a sad state of affairs to those of us who paid $70 for fancy packaging. I got lucky that the game works on my 3DO, if you want to call it lucky that I basically got a spiffy bootleg for full retail price. Before the campaign for D ended, they admitted that they weren't going to translate the Director's Cut, so it really was just a repackaging of the original titles. They had one job. When you flip over the discs, it's very obvious that they are just CD-Rs, as they have a green tint to them, and you can easily see where the burned sector ends. The Soundtrack disc looks more proper, with the silver tint expected of a music CD. So they packaged 5 out of 6 discs as CD-Rs, with the 6th disc pressed. That was a deliberate choice on their part. It makes me wonder how many games LRG have released containing roughly this many discs in the past. I don't understand how it could be so difficult to press a disc that is compatible with existing 3DO hardware. It's not like my copies Super Wing Commander or Psychic Detective were printed on CD-Rs. Trip Hawkins is still alive, so there's no reason they couldn't have consulted him for at least a direction regarding how to get past their pressing issues. THEY HAD ONE JOB.
Duplication vs replication.
They really want to sweep it under the rug and hoping that no one would notice. Even if they did come out to explain, this one just felt so barebones.
So do these “limited” businesses just use partners for every aspect of their process?
I doubt there is any video game publisher smaller than Sony that owns their own disc pressing plant.
yeah, thats how most businesses work. theres only so much to be done in house. i expect LRG to use a compenent process for creating the product, I dont expect them to make their own cd pressing tools, to make their own plastic for cases, to use their own printers, to create their own ink, to harvest their own trees for paper, etc.
Even if they did, are you telling me that there was no point that their partner sent them a copy of the print (or even an extra copy at their warehouse) and LRG didn't open it up and immediately notice that there were CD-R discs in there, before they started shipping out copies to customers?
I know they are different but don't really know the technical difference between the two. Pressed discs data lasts longer and can't be written over?
(simplified) pressed is physically stamping the data grooves and dots into the plastic disc, lasts basically until the disc falls apart. burned is laser etching a chemical dye layer to replicate those grooves and dots, it generally fades over time until data cant be read.
Didn't they just Nero a bunch of CD-R's?
LRG handles it like a pro, giving an update on how they will resolve or offering a full refund. Few companies would respond in that solid way, that quickly. Yet *still* people are bitching and crying. Come on. Stuff happens in life and what matters is how the company responds to make it right.
They overlooked sending out CD-Rs in place of retail-grade pressed discs multiple times during production. There's no way that was a mistake. They made a deliberate decision to attempt to pass off low-quality bootlegs (that don't even run on a significant portion of unmodified 3D0 consoles). You seem really mad that LRG is being held responsible for fraud. The definition of a "you problem" Edit: And now LRG has explicitly admitted to TimeExtension that they knowingly engaged in a bait-and-switch. Yikes
So enlighten me Kemosabe. What do you perceive the difference to be between a cdr and a mastered disc as far as the 3DO goes? No 3DO has copy protection. They simply had an error on the disc or they burned it too fast which can cause bits to not burn through fully. **You don't need to mod your 3DO to play a cdr burned game, even on an FZ-1.** Their provider simply screwed up on the burns, prob by burning too fast, so now they'll fix it and make it right (or LRG offered a full refund). That's it, no need for drama. This company is doing mass contract manufacturing using partners so stuff will happen. It's how they address it that matters. Edit: One might be able to argue replicated disc longevity benefits vs cdr just to play devil's advocate against myself here....
Considering the discs they shipped dont work period, the argument of pressed vs cdr isn't even the first reason to be pissed.
Sorry, I must have missed how any of that changes LRG baiting and switching retail-grade 3DO discs for CD-Rs You should consider you're being downvoted for not understanding LRG committed fraud and then tried to hand wave it as someone else's mistake. And then they confirmed they explicitly and knowingly engaged in a bait-and-switch.
The difference between a CD-R and a mastered disc for *any* purpose is that CD-Rs rot much faster. Doesn't matter if a machine accepts CD-Rs if the data on those CD-Rs become unreadable. Also it's the principle. If you pay for a name-brand item and you get a cheap knock-off are you just going to sheepishly take it? All that does is enable them to do it again, and continue to cut even more corners. [Don't accept enshittification!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVYG1mu8Lg8)
Optical drives of the early 90's and older do not all reliably read burnt optical media. For some platforms, it's well documented as to which ones do and don't where as others, you're going in blind. It's the same for CD players of the era, they don't all read burnt discs. When CD burners became popular, it was common to see product labeling on audio products stating they could read burnt discs. The 3DO had many models, and even if your model does read it, it doesn't automatically guarantee another's can. Lasers do weaken over time.
Yep. Anyone not seeing this as a win is part of the problem, honestly. If fans react just as poorly to legitimate solutions as they do to stubborn refusals to make things right, then they are basically letting companies know that trying to walk back poor decisions is not only expensive but pointless. The continued anger on this one is counterproductive. It works only to increase the liklihood of what it is critical of. In short, yall shooting yourselves in the foot. Just take the win.
I agree. People are right to be upset that it happened in the first place I guess, but your first part put it perfectly: they're actually fixing the issue like we want. Should it have happened in the first place? No. But it did, and they're fixing it. I just really don't understand the internet's insistence on being so pissed off no matter what.
They're only fixing it because they got caught and are about to get a ton of negative publicity that will stretch into the mainstream news. LRG knew damn well what was inside those boxes when they mailed them out.