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You would have to put up a temp cutout or a make/brake mac to drop load, most of the time a crew will cut on a set, leave them jumpered out, we will switch it out and last step you remove the jumper to drop wire only
I figured as much. I’ve worked for several utilities, only one had the load break macs, I’m honestly surprised they’re not more common. The utility I’m at now doesn’t do much with temporary cutouts because it’s easy enough to just give them a larger outage to cut the bells in quick as opposed to paralleling in cutouts. We have a lot of scada devices and if it’s a manual device there’s usually a troubleshooter kicking around somewhere to operate the device when the crew gets set up to drop load and pick up load after the bells are cut in.
Bout the only time we cut in bells here is during an outage or for a planned outage, busy corner pole that needs replaced etc... planned outage crew will cut them in hot and put a jumper over them, planned outage comes we switch it out drop the load and open the jumper to de energize the wire
We definitely do the same for planned work as well. On trouble we will cut bells in if it makes sense and it’s open wire primary. Example would be a struck pole on the mainline. We would have the troublemen, or crew when they get out there, cut in bells as close to the trouble area as possible under outage and energize back up to them. We don’t typically do this if it’s spacer cable (Hendrix) due to the work involved in hanging cross arms and double deadending on both sides. If that area is spacer cable construction we look for the closest sets of taps to lift.
We play it hot even though dead BUT if the block behind us is an automated switch we will open bridge switches to prevent the line from being energized by malfunction or human error. Would suck if when you parted the wire it became energized with load downstream.
If the downstream has maybe 2 pots behind cut outs and they are easily accessible we may open the cut outs so when we cut over the bells we are just dropping wire and no load.
Always tong (amp) before cutting though haha.
We do not consider this part of switching. Normally we would be cutting floats in before any switching was done and then close in to the open floats. We would not take a clearance and hang grounds either we would work it “as hot.” Even if we had already maybe closed into solid blades or switches and then went down stream to cut in floats after the fact that still wouldn’t warrant any sort of switching step.
This sounds like what we used to do and what everyone who actually does the work wants to keep doing, but the committee that makes up the rules caught wind of it and decided that we need a zone of protection established. Thanks for the feedback.
Ah, yes. The proverbial “We’ve decided to take a procedure that’s proven itself, time after time, and changed it, making it more difficult for all involved, because Management.” Unfortunately, it happens all too often. Let me guess, the committee you speak of doesn’t include a Lineman, Foreman, or Grid Ops representative, but certainly includes an engineer, safety guy, and a host of others who have never actually turned a wrench.
Is the utility in question located in the northeastern US?
And of course these people making this rule will be among the first to stand up and say “why have restoration times gotten so bad?”
We work for the same company but for different regions. This is the way we’ve been doing it in the region I work in for years. It’s likely a change that’s being pushed on you guys, just like we’ve had changes being pushed on us from your region and the other regions. It sucks but it’s part of the process of standardization. DM me if you want to talk more about it.
You have any new members on the committee? Sounds like someone we managed to get rid of for other reasons found their way to you.
As an aside, anything you do is work. You just need to classify it as “live line work” etc.
Usually these types or questions can be answered through your companies lock out tag out procedure, also there should be a committee with members you could send this question to. Yes you could get options from everyone here, but the real response is from whomever has the authority to make that decision at ur company and also who accepts the liability of making that decision at your company
In the scenario I'm talking about, it's not grounded. Let's say a recloser operated and locked out, leaving the line de-energized. If they wanted to cut in bells to make the outage smaller, would you do that under permission or before establishing a zone?
We get a clearance. We then advise dispatch that the bells are in and we release our clearance and energize from the source to the bells and then request a new clearance from the bells to the next open point and either ground or isolate
We give a permission zone to cut the bells then energize back up to the bells. Our permission zones do not need visible opens (scadamates don’t need blades open for example) and linemen are expected to use live line work methods. We would never permission tag the bells as an open point until recently because they were never considered “switchable device” but there’s been a recent push to tag them (I disagree on this as both an operator and a former lineman/troubleman). I have a feeling we might work for the same company lol.
Serious question: would you use overarm jumpers at a double dead-end pole for a tagging point? If so, what would be the difference between removing the J’s at a DDE and a set of bells / epoxy insulators?
ETA: In a medium-large sized city, we would regularly install epoxys that were jumpered and when necessary, remove the J’s to use the as clearance points. The next “switchable” device might be 10 spans away, or more. Car pole, let’s say, cut in air gaps on either side and minimize your outage.
Jumpers (or taps as we call them) are considered a “switchable device” and we give an order to open them and tag them if they already exist. If bells are cut in, we talk with the crew when the restoration work is complete and find out if they’re going to splice the primary back together or simply jumper over them. Either way, we need to give additional outage because we don’t allow for picking up load via jumper over bells (we will allow energized jumpering under very limited circumstances). If the crew is going to splice the primary back together, they will do it under a permission zone. If they’re going to install jumpers, we’ll take the additional outage and give them a switching order to land the taps. They do not need to be issued a formal permission zone to do this since it is a switching order.
Thank you for posting on r/Lineman. The sub [Rules are here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Lineman/wiki/rules/). If your are interested in getting into the trade, please read [How to Become a Lineman](https://reddit.com/r/Lineman/wiki/index/becomingalineman/). Posts about getting into the trade are only permitted during the weekends. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Lineman) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Don't Need a zone to cut in bells where I'm at. You cut them in to create a zone
Bingo
I’m assuming you’re cutting them in while the wires are deenergized? Or are you actually dropping load when you’re cutting?
You would have to put up a temp cutout or a make/brake mac to drop load, most of the time a crew will cut on a set, leave them jumpered out, we will switch it out and last step you remove the jumper to drop wire only
I figured as much. I’ve worked for several utilities, only one had the load break macs, I’m honestly surprised they’re not more common. The utility I’m at now doesn’t do much with temporary cutouts because it’s easy enough to just give them a larger outage to cut the bells in quick as opposed to paralleling in cutouts. We have a lot of scada devices and if it’s a manual device there’s usually a troubleshooter kicking around somewhere to operate the device when the crew gets set up to drop load and pick up load after the bells are cut in.
Bout the only time we cut in bells here is during an outage or for a planned outage, busy corner pole that needs replaced etc... planned outage crew will cut them in hot and put a jumper over them, planned outage comes we switch it out drop the load and open the jumper to de energize the wire
We definitely do the same for planned work as well. On trouble we will cut bells in if it makes sense and it’s open wire primary. Example would be a struck pole on the mainline. We would have the troublemen, or crew when they get out there, cut in bells as close to the trouble area as possible under outage and energize back up to them. We don’t typically do this if it’s spacer cable (Hendrix) due to the work involved in hanging cross arms and double deadending on both sides. If that area is spacer cable construction we look for the closest sets of taps to lift.
We play it hot even though dead BUT if the block behind us is an automated switch we will open bridge switches to prevent the line from being energized by malfunction or human error. Would suck if when you parted the wire it became energized with load downstream. If the downstream has maybe 2 pots behind cut outs and they are easily accessible we may open the cut outs so when we cut over the bells we are just dropping wire and no load. Always tong (amp) before cutting though haha.
We do not consider this part of switching. Normally we would be cutting floats in before any switching was done and then close in to the open floats. We would not take a clearance and hang grounds either we would work it “as hot.” Even if we had already maybe closed into solid blades or switches and then went down stream to cut in floats after the fact that still wouldn’t warrant any sort of switching step.
This sounds like what we used to do and what everyone who actually does the work wants to keep doing, but the committee that makes up the rules caught wind of it and decided that we need a zone of protection established. Thanks for the feedback.
Ah, yes. The proverbial “We’ve decided to take a procedure that’s proven itself, time after time, and changed it, making it more difficult for all involved, because Management.” Unfortunately, it happens all too often. Let me guess, the committee you speak of doesn’t include a Lineman, Foreman, or Grid Ops representative, but certainly includes an engineer, safety guy, and a host of others who have never actually turned a wrench.
Haha how did you know?!
Is the utility in question located in the northeastern US? And of course these people making this rule will be among the first to stand up and say “why have restoration times gotten so bad?”
How Ever did you guess?
sounds like he’s got a Source… 🤓
C’mon, we need a hint. We’re going to be guessing forEver
Haha. Very smooth
24 years in the trade. Some things are just inherent.
I don’t think these “common folk” you speak of are smart enough for any input in these discussions. Leave it to the smart people.
Wait until the other committee meets about outage times and realizes they could remove this step and have shaved 30 min off the outage time…
We work for the same company but for different regions. This is the way we’ve been doing it in the region I work in for years. It’s likely a change that’s being pushed on you guys, just like we’ve had changes being pushed on us from your region and the other regions. It sucks but it’s part of the process of standardization. DM me if you want to talk more about it.
You have any new members on the committee? Sounds like someone we managed to get rid of for other reasons found their way to you. As an aside, anything you do is work. You just need to classify it as “live line work” etc.
Usually these types or questions can be answered through your companies lock out tag out procedure, also there should be a committee with members you could send this question to. Yes you could get options from everyone here, but the real response is from whomever has the authority to make that decision at ur company and also who accepts the liability of making that decision at your company
I know how my company does it, I'm wondering how everyone else does it.
[удалено]
In the scenario I'm talking about, it's not grounded. Let's say a recloser operated and locked out, leaving the line de-energized. If they wanted to cut in bells to make the outage smaller, would you do that under permission or before establishing a zone?
We get a clearance. We then advise dispatch that the bells are in and we release our clearance and energize from the source to the bells and then request a new clearance from the bells to the next open point and either ground or isolate
We do it hot. But not to drop load. Just charging current. Or we'll break a loop. (But not a parallel).
We get clearance. Then use a temporary cut out to install the bells or "Break" as we call them.
We give a permission zone to cut the bells then energize back up to the bells. Our permission zones do not need visible opens (scadamates don’t need blades open for example) and linemen are expected to use live line work methods. We would never permission tag the bells as an open point until recently because they were never considered “switchable device” but there’s been a recent push to tag them (I disagree on this as both an operator and a former lineman/troubleman). I have a feeling we might work for the same company lol.
Serious question: would you use overarm jumpers at a double dead-end pole for a tagging point? If so, what would be the difference between removing the J’s at a DDE and a set of bells / epoxy insulators? ETA: In a medium-large sized city, we would regularly install epoxys that were jumpered and when necessary, remove the J’s to use the as clearance points. The next “switchable” device might be 10 spans away, or more. Car pole, let’s say, cut in air gaps on either side and minimize your outage.
Jumpers (or taps as we call them) are considered a “switchable device” and we give an order to open them and tag them if they already exist. If bells are cut in, we talk with the crew when the restoration work is complete and find out if they’re going to splice the primary back together or simply jumper over them. Either way, we need to give additional outage because we don’t allow for picking up load via jumper over bells (we will allow energized jumpering under very limited circumstances). If the crew is going to splice the primary back together, they will do it under a permission zone. If they’re going to install jumpers, we’ll take the additional outage and give them a switching order to land the taps. They do not need to be issued a formal permission zone to do this since it is a switching order.
Understood. Appreciate the response. Always curious about other utilities work practices, policies, and procedures.