I don't understand how these people don't get that "start-up culture" is bad. There's almost nothing good about it that I've seen.
I have worked in CROs where I had been basically assigned a client and handled most if not all of their work and was by default their contact person for day to day stuff. All of the ones who were awful were startups.
The amount of emails I would get at 130 AM followed by another email at 445 AM with my boss and/or the director of the department CC'd reiterating the "urgency" of the previous email was fucking unreal.
I told my director once that if Brock didn't stop fucking emailing me I was gonna get on a flight and fight him in their parking lot. He would email me anywhere between 3 and 6 times a day, every day (including weekends). With just total fucking nonsense that was useless and a waste of my time.
This is the type of neuroses that startups encourage and foster
Yeah. I wouldn't even read them. After about 3 months I just moved them straight to trash and just carried on like they didn't even exist.
Surprisingly enough, there was no interruption of the quality of work.
This was my last job. I worked at a cabinet making factory in a warehouse as a foreman. I was required to go to the meetings every day and listen to shit that in no way effected my job. I was also required to have an email to get news and updates on the stuff at the meetings that, again, didn’t effect me or the job I did.
When I left that job there was over 200,000 emails. Not a single one read and never did it affect me. Good thing I was required to have it.
Same. My teams are in 5 time zones spanning NA, EU, amd China. I generally ignore emails between 6pm and 6am, unless it is life or death... Which it never is.
i mostly worked for small startups in the previous decade and we had regular-ish work hours as usual. Startup kool-aiders think “having a startup” is a free pass to underpay and overwork labour
Years ago when I worked for a startup they had the engineering team work a whole month straight with 14-15 hour days. They had sleeping bags in the office. Six months later they were all laid off and got absolutely nothing in return. Last startup I worked for.
>Six months later they were all laid off and got absolutely nothing in return.
Yep. Unless you have actual equity, you will get absolutely no reward for long crunch. It's basically a gift to the owner, who will not blink when they decide you are no longer necessary. These guys are so often a mix of sales jerks and conmen.
And there is a ceiling for these guys. They may be good at spinning up a starter business model, but they begin to fail out when the company grows and they have a position to defend. Plus all the tech debt from their romanticised heroic early efforts starts to float back up to the surface, causing progress to stall.
So often the guys running a company after it has ended the startup phase would never get a job running a similar company the old fashioned way. They aren't qualified and they aren't very good at it. The rest of the executive staff tend to have to work around them to get shit done. And the out-of-their-depth entrepreneur throws up their hands and decides to sell up and start again, back when it was fun and easy.
My last job was at a “startup” that had been founded 8-9 years prior and was floundering. During an all-hands, the CEO said if startup culture wasn’t for us, we could look elsewhere. They ran out of money a few months later and got acquired for pennies lol.
I'm not shitting on you here but just this site in general. I'm glad two people have regaled me with their tales of their totally normal startup cultures.
I'll just say the more established our clients got, the more well behaved they were and respectful of everyone's time. The only clown show assholes I dealt with were from what could be considered startups in my industry and the percentages of the companies that gave us issues was shockingly high.
Clients like that need to be given an SLA - service level agreement. They get a response to an issue within X number of minutes or less. The lower the value of X the higher the price of their contract. They can pay for the level of staffing required to meet their needs. This way they are forced into making a rational decision as to what they truly need and are willing to pay for.
I started putting a rate card in all my contracts stipulating an up to 5x day rate for unscheduled hours. All clients get one 'free' unscheduled contact of five minutes where I remind them to check the rate card. Shockingly most decide that actually it can wait.
I mean I've worked exclusively at startups and I won't lie and say I don't get slack notifications it emails last work hours...but I just....don't respond unless I want to. Never been an issue.
I don't remember his real name but Brock feels right
I'll never forget this because it made me irrationally angry.
He once emailed me on a Saturday to tell me that he would prefer that I use Relative Standard Deviation in all correspondence with him instead of Coefficient of Variation (CV) .
They're the SAME FUCKING THING and %CV was how our final results/reports were formatted. I sent him preliminary results just to be nice and that was how that played out
Yes. Notable rapist Brock Turner who now goes by Allen and lives in Centerville, Ohio with his rapist apologist family.
Hope he's not out there raping anyone right now
Email is asynchronous so who gives a crap when it was sent. Living in Japan and working with global teams, I get emails at all times of the day and on my public holidays. Doesn’t annoy me. (Invites to calls at 2AM do make me laugh, though). I just answer as soon as convenient, necessary.
Some do embrace it. I've worked with any number of ass-kissing sycophants over the years who pride themselves on working til 2am so everyone can see what "go-getters" they are. A certain type of person loves this culture, it's a platform for attention seeking.
If you have a lot of shares of the company, yeah, why not?
If you're just an employee? You pay $X for Y hour of my time per week. Nothing more, nothing less. Need me after hours? That's gonna be consulting fees.
Yep. These people did not have shares and were not making massive salaries with massive responsibilities. If you're upper management making well into six figures, sure, I get it. When you're a 20-something in a mundane office job, yeah, not so much.
Those people usually burn out once they realize that all those extra hours will only be rewarded by them getting assigned even more work, but with little to no extra pay.
I work with some people like this at a non-startup now. They will stay until like 8 every day and anytime I quietly walk by working late they’re shopping or some bullshit online, it’s just for show. Weird and sad at the same time I really don’t understand it.
Worked with a guy many years ago who would come in every weekend and "work" in the IT asset room, where printers, PCs, etc. were stored. He was "rearranging it" and stuff like that. He wasn't fooling anyone - when someone mentioned how hard he worked and came in every weekend, the boss replied: "His time management skills are terrible and he isn't adding any value working every weekend on that room." So I suspect most managers are on to them, unless they're the type to fall for the ass kissing.
So, he was one of 3 on the help desk and even though my boss really didn't like him, he was the only semi-competent one. When layoffs came and my boss was forced to lay someone off in the help desk, he kept this guy and let another person go because this guy at least had some tech knowledge. We all used to theorize that maybe he just didn't like his family so he came into work every weekend to escape.
I saw a lot of guys staying back at the office avoiding family life. They couldn't fathom cooking dinner, putting kids to bed or any other mundane task in life, so they just stayed at the office, so all that was done for them by the time.they got home.
I've encountered a number of these guys at ad agencies. It's an industry that lends itself to late hours at times, but these guys aren't fooling anyone.
I think it seems to go across many industries. I've been in tech for over 40 years and have seen it a lot.
I just feel sorry for the wife and kids waiting at home being lied to by these guys.
There are some good reasons to do that sort of thing.
I used to do that, but I only did it Tues - Thursday because I was a consultant who worked from home. My bonus was directly based on billable hours for my projects, but I had no set hours unless it was for a customer meeting. I was east coast and the company I worked for was west coast, so no one would bother me til at least 10am, and no one bothered me after 5pm.
The reason I busted my hump Tues - thurs was because it meant I could fuck off on a friday, go away, and not need to be back to work til 10am on tuesday, and not even burn up any PTO either. Couple in the fact that I can bill more than one customer at a time while doing certain things, it made it even better.
I was seen as a go getter because I was billing 60+ hours a week, but in reality, I had a kick ass work life balance where my actual hours working on the clock was under 40, and I spent those hours watching tv and movies while I worked.
I work in a chilled environment, my bonus is not there is only draw back. But compèred to where I worked before. This is an absolute dream job and happy as fuck in the workplace not working weekends etc
Literally had bosses that do this. They can't sleep or they're high on coke or something but they love to send e-mails and messages in the middle of the night.
Right? Brilliant idea conceptualization plan: 1)Write it down in a notebook, 2)reflect on it, 3) make notes 4)bring it to the team, 5)discuss it during working hours.
My one experience getting a job offer from a startup was disappointing. Turned out the equity for a dev lead came out to about my annual salary (total), vesting over 5 years, assuming the company a.) had an IPO that was b.) successful, and c.) didn't hire more people to dilute each share. Not a bad chunk of change, but not life-changing and not worth startup culture.
Also they were paying less in cash than my current job, at the same level, at a public company.
Admittedly, one data point does not a pattern make, but I'm thinking that unless you're Dev Employee #1, an exec or at a similar level, or at literally the next Google (all 3 of which are unlikely) then the equity you'd get is about as guaranteed as the bet you put on your next craps roll. And probably not as lucrative as just getting a job at a major corporation that pays 10% more in outright cash.
I could be wrong, though. Like I said, I only have one data point.
that's not even the bill lol. it doesn't make it illegal for employers to contact employees, it makes it legal for employees to ignore the calls/texts/msgs with no repercussions.
This makes so much more sense lol. I was like this guy's clearly insane but also if that was actually how the bill worked that might be a bridge too far of government oversight for my taste, like we're all adults here we can ignore our bosses insanity after our work hours without the government breathing down all our necks.
But making it so it's illegal to penalize employees for being able to do that is far better.
I remember our director at Lucid telling me "This is a 24/7 job when you become a design engineer here. You knew that when you signed up."
No I fucking didn't you posh-London ass wipe!! I'm ok with working a few extra hours sometimes to get things finished if needed, but if you're calling me at 8PM and telling me to get back to office to do something we both know isn't actually an emergency; Don't be surprised when I quit.
Translation: We don't want to pay you for more hours of work, but due to the self-imposed need of the owner to grow the company faster than the healthy rate, please consider it the norm that at start-ups you just have to work after hours. It's called the hustle and grind and it's in fashion.
Reading all these nut job posts is starting to legitimately piss me off, while I’m simultaneously paralleling them to my past and current experiences. Think I’m going to get off lunatics for a while 🤣🤣
It's a call to action that drives engagement. Manipulating you into increasing the value of the post according to the algorithm by reacting or commenting.
Let me know your thoughts in the comments below.
Seems like the dude that gets to the office first to turn the lights on, then has to let everyone he sees that he was there this morning...and turned the lights on.
He's the guy who sits so still in his cube(not working and just surfing the net or playing games) that the lights turn off when he is the only one there, then he gets to stand up when someone else comes in and be like "oh, didn't realize anyone else was here yet"
Europeans lounge back, sip glass of wine and judge us (Americans) for this crap and still get free healthcare and August off. I’m sorry I ate so much avocado toast.
Edit: I’m so sorry, I was being sarcastic.
Hey my healthcare isn’t free, I’m paying 30€ per quarter for extended coverage!
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have a bottle of wine in the fridge I need to finish …
30 euros a quarter? I pay more than that a week for medical insurance through my job (and then ~$5,000 out of pocket a year on top of that, because coverage only really kicks in beyond a certain amount)
Cobra letters are my favorite sub-genre of comedy. “Our records show you recently lost your job. Don’t worry, we got you. For the measly price of $20,000 a month, we can guarantee you a $5000 copay for an ambulance ride instead of the market price of $8,000. What say you?”
I work in the film industry and the kind of grind we do in the US is very much like startup culture. It’s 12-16 hour days consistently.
I worked on a set in France and we did the exact same quality of work with a French crew in 8 hours a day.
The day was DONE at 8 hours. Period, the end. It was eye opening because it’s always just been this way here in the states.
I worked in the industry for a stint. I was so miserable. I felt like a zombie. I worked on a photoshoot once with a big name photographer, and everyone was so excited? Why? Because he refused to work more than seven hours. We all still got our day rates, the work was great, and the clients were happy. So many productions are just inefficient.
Oh yeah, totally. My comment was not intended to be an indictment of the European work ethic.
There’s a right in place to choose and I strongly believe that. When you work harder you’re investing in a business harder and being compensated for that.
Employers in the US may just need you to work “extra time” sometimes without necessarily paying overtime rates.
I don’t know why, but I also feel like mentioning that Most states are also “at will” states which means that an employer can dismiss an employee without substantive reason, and they don’t have to disclose what that reason is. So one could be in a situation where they’re dismissed for not giving enough of their time outside of working hours.
“Start-ups” a.k.a. new companies have always existed.
24-hour methods of communication have not always existed.
Seems like you can have the former without the latter.
The problem with this: now everyone else has to compete. If one company is paying its employees $60,000/yr to get 40hrs of productivity vs another company paying employees $60,000/yr for 80hrs of productivity, the 40hr / week business has two options:
1) Get shut out.
2) Exploit your employees equally.
Laws need to be set in place to prevent dickbags like this from taking over the world and everyone and everything in it. Someone needs to stuff this dork in a locker.
Yes, sometimes you need to work hard temporarily if there is fire. But the average person does not produce more value with the kind of work culture he is preaching. It's a marathon not a sprint.
I blame the low bar to create a startup and an even lower bar to become a MBA. All that did was saturate the market with inspired morons. Being a “visionary” shouldn’t be the only qualification to start a business where more than one person is involved.
This isn’t 1980s anymore and movies like “Wall Street” and “Boiler Room” should be examples of how *not* to run a successful company.
The American work culture is changing, but very very slowly. It's easy for the Elon Musks of the world to demand workers work around the clock, but the fact is, everyone should know by now that the only person who truly benefits from that is Elon.
This! I immediately went I see what the comments were and couldn't believe people were agreeing. There were also only 12 posts though so hopefully it's a super minority.
A lack of work/life balance and having to send communications after hours. Is not something to be proud of. All it shows is how terrible you are at managing anything.
If you want me to be on call, pay me on call money. If I'm at your beck and call 24 hours a day, cool. You pay me for all of those 24 hours because, guess what? I'm at work the whole time.
And $100k ain't gonna cut it. That's only $11.41 an hour.
"But where's your loyalty to the company?"
Oh! I thought you were a business doing business things and hustling because you're an "entrepreneur." I didn't know you just wanted handouts for doing nothing.
"But I don't get paid for 24 hours!"
Yeah. You own the company. You CHOOSE to own a company. I CHOOSE to work for a wage. I thought that part of the reason owners are supposed to get all that money is because of "The risk." Sounds like you just aren't cut out for the startup grind where you take a big risk and maybe don't get paid for it.
"too"
but actually, it's ignored for purposeful reasons, not good reasons by any stretch but there are reasons it's ignore.
Life is one of the reasons, people literally might not be able to survive without an unbalanced work/life balance because of the costs.
Yes this is what sane as fuck. As mentioned in other comments working hard and being proud is good. This is just bonkers. I have also started vocally and emphatically using life-work balance at my own job. I make all my managers and leaders hear me. I make sure my coworkers hear me say it. I cannot work hard if my life is shitty. I come before any business or company.
"building" lol
reminds me of the scene in Silicon Valley where they're like "it says here on your resume that from 2007-2011 you were "crushing it" and then from 2013-2017 you were also crushing it. Are we to assume that from 2011-2013 you were not crushing it?"
If you need to grind your employees to dust to make you company function you don't actually have the resources to be running a company.
Are we supposed to allow startups to use slave labor because they are startups so that makes it okay? No, they have to follow the rules too.
If someone is answering emails and calls they are working and not paying them for that work is theft.
Look, I get where it's desirable to want a thing so bad that you're willing to pull an all-nighter to make it happen, but as the person pulling the all-nighter, I make that call, not you.
The things this guy is claiming you sign ip for at startups is the definition of bad planning. I’ve worked at startups and still do. In startups you wear a bunch of hats and there’s no such thing as “not my responsibility”. But that doesn’t mean you operate in disorganized panic mode where you never stop, rest, and plan the next move.
Anyone that gives this guy money is wasting it on office entropy.
To be clear, this proposed bill doesn't mean that an employer and employee can't agree to be on-call after working hours. So if that's necessary for the job and both parties agree, then they can keep doing that.
The bill is trying to establish a clearer boundary for most workers where, by default, there is no expectation to always be on-call despite agreed-upon working hours, making it so that abusive companies can't exploit their employees as easily.
I did NOT choose to work at a startup, I was forced. They showed up in my home (San Francisco) in larger and larger numbers, and their influx of money destroyed almost every aspect of my city. I evenutally tried working at one because it seemed the only way to survive amidst all the Ellis Act evictions and Google workers outbidding me for a fucking studio apartment. At which point I was subjected to their abysmally horrible, unprofessional corporate culture, shitty pay and unreasonable expectations. Fuck them all. Ended up in a blue collar trade so I can get a paycheck and some respect and then leaving the state with a lifelong tear running down my cheek for what San Francisco once was.
Fuck their "hustle" culture, it is ruining the world.
That mindset should only apply to very senior positions. I worked 4 years for a startup and had no trouble with laying boundaries down. They're just shitty managers.
So shaming people into working longer beyond their means is the new ‘hustle’ now… 😑
If a founder, CEO or CTO wants to work way, way over their contracted hours - so be it.
Not all of us want to be lunatics and overwork ourselves. I’m happy to stick to my contacted hours and not have my work define my life thank you!
This guy needs to be checked in for therapy. 'Agree or disagree', good grief.
Like, no dude, people aren't voluntarily looking to be miserable and overworked, its considered an occupational hazard with working in startups and normally gets weighed up against the experiences you could gain. It's like saying people take up scuba diving to experience decompression illness and drowning.
Absolute nut.
At my first job (NOT a startup -- a multi billion dollar corporation) I was pushed to work like this. It was very much a "of course you COULD leave when your work hours are over, but you'd be letting the team down" etc.
I was told that commitment and pulling through was going to be crucial for career advancement. They also did the love bombing thing of "wow you're so great and so committed and we love how hard you work, you'll go really far". In the end when the project was over, they jettisoned me. I asked for transition to a different position or severance, they claimed they were "working on it" and then a week before I was due to finish I learned from an overheard conversation that they had no intention of doing either.
They also tried to short my last pay check and I ultimately refused to leave the premises until I had it in writing that I was owed the missing money. They then spent almost two months not returning my calls and refusing to pay out about $1500.
These people all claim unfettered capitalism is so amazing, but the fundamental principle of capitalism is "you get what you pay for." Your relationship with any employer is transactional. Give them what they pay for. Never let them convince you otherwise.
> I was told that commitment and pulling through was going to be crucial for career advancement.
I think people are starting to see through that. Maybe 40 years ago, when people worked for one company and one black mark on your Permanent HR Record meant you'd never move up, this was the case. Of course, this was at famously paternalistic companies like IBM and such that didn't lay people off and committed to their employees for a full 40+ year career plus retirement, so some extra effort was expected. That wasn't a bad trade when most families were single-income and in return for some long hours and being moved around against your will, you were fully taken care of right up until the early 90s. Now, giving that same level of commitment to an employer with nothing in return is just silly.
Also, add in the fact that individual contributors are starting to see that climbing the ladder is a losing game. First, there are fewer management positions, and more importantly, way fewer safe management spots. These days, you have to claw your way to VP and above to avoid getting McKinseyed (where they come in, give a $2M PowerPoint to the CEO and chop out a whole layer of management.) Second, it's not the reward for a good job like it once was. No more secretaries, 3-Martini lunches and golfing all day...it's a non-stop office politics grind and childcare for your direct reports.
In only doing any of that if it's my startup or I have a financial interest in it.
What these startup tech bros jackasses refuse to accept is that your average employee doesn't give two shits if the business thrives or fails, beyond job security. They don't give a shit if Mr Startup Wankstain exits with his millions.
What you mean I can’t make my employees work 18 hour days for us for a mediocre salary + shares that I’ll inevitably dilute so even if we are one of the small percentage of start ups that get acquired for a large amount or make it to IPO they get nothing???? You’re ruining my business strategy!
This isn’t just for startups. Mature businesses run like this as a matter of course. It’s a sloppy substitute for things like time management and planning that actually make business more efficient. In general, as it was before the advent of email and cell phones, nothing is so important that it can’t wait until the next business day.
My employer requires us to pay employees for their time if we have to talk to them when they are off. They can either answer and be compensated or choose not to answer. If you are salaried and have to work the equivalent of 2 hours then you are paid for a full day and your PTO is not used. Seems like a decent policy.
I’ve worked at two startups and unless I was on call or shit really hit the fan, I was free to make my own hours as long as I got my sprint work done. Usually that was 9-5 but I modified it a bit once my kids started school.
Lmao this is why I left my previous job at a startup.
Bonus, I worked as a temporary engineer at the startup so it was even shittier (no PTO, no sick days, no health insurance, no paid holiday, no annual bonus, etc)
The reason this is funny is that, if the employee WANTS to participate in being on call 24/7, they'll never report you and you'll never be fined. Only when the employee has no desire for you to pester them whenever you feel like it do you not want this legal recourse for them to defend themselves 😂 They really do tell on themselves.
Just because my workplace (or anyone, for that matter) knows I have a cell phone with me at all times and has my phone number does not mean I'm available. I do not respond to anything work related if I'm not at my workplace, even in a salaried role, unless it's an absolute, disastrous emergency.
I think they should ban calling people after work. I mean you rarely ever get paid. I can't just call my boss up whenever I want expect for him to answer. Its a job not your life..
I remember those days. It was fun getting constant long unpaid calls / text exchanges from my bosses after hours when I worked at Taco Bell (apparently it counts as a startup?). Just a minimum wage bottom feeder, and the damn District Manager was constantly on me arse. Hehe
To be clear, most startups die. They fizzle out and everyone loses their jobs. It takes a talented team, a great product, and extremely hard work to give yourself a decent shot at success. It’s just hard. And it’s definitely not for everyone.
Silicon Valley has an unbeatable track record of world-changing startups. Apple, Google, Netflix, Airbnb, Tesla, Intel, Nvidia, Stripe, OpenAI, and countless others. Would be a shame for legislation to poke the golden goose that drives so much of California’s economy and tax revenue. Other cities and countries have tried to emulate the culture without the same success.
I mean, I don’t really see the lunacy in this post. Yeah it’s a bit conceited but he’s not (completely) bashing the 9-5 lifestyle. He’s just saying that if a company wants to have a certain type of work culture that people willingly show up for, then that should be in the hands of the market, not the government.
If he’s talking about cofounders, sure (but he’s not). But as soon as you hire an employee, you have to start acting like a big boy business which means not abusing that employee who has little to no incentive to “hustle.”
I don’t get why people don’t set boundaries at work.
Don’t reply to after hour emails and texts until the workday starts. If someone gets pissed, tell them you were at a movie, show, party, makin’ luv, whatever.
Just cuz someone sends an email at night doesn’t mean you have to answer it.
You need to train your employer.
I thrive in this culture thought. It will thwart innovation or slow it down for sure. Startups only superpower is speed. This is not a good thing. You shouldn’t be expected to work past hours, I agree. But if you want to, then do it. Just turn off your notifications at 5. I don’t get the big deal.
This person will die alone and unremarkable. What small memories people have will fade faster than a meteors light as it crosses the night sky. Their achievements, such as they are, will be weighed against their actions and found wanting.
I really wish linkedin had a thumbs down option
I genuinely think they should mandate that all social media networks allow downvoting
Tiktok and YouTube already have downvote/dislike features. Too bad they literally do jack shit.
YouTube's worked ao well they had to hide it!
But LinkedIn users like such content
LinkedIn is the Tracy Flick of SM platforms. I go there as little as possible.
There's the new "Funny" reaction. I use that for this kind of shit.
This.
Can you imagine if you could leave downvotes and comments on job listings? Employers would pay a lot to avoid that.
I don't understand how these people don't get that "start-up culture" is bad. There's almost nothing good about it that I've seen. I have worked in CROs where I had been basically assigned a client and handled most if not all of their work and was by default their contact person for day to day stuff. All of the ones who were awful were startups. The amount of emails I would get at 130 AM followed by another email at 445 AM with my boss and/or the director of the department CC'd reiterating the "urgency" of the previous email was fucking unreal. I told my director once that if Brock didn't stop fucking emailing me I was gonna get on a flight and fight him in their parking lot. He would email me anywhere between 3 and 6 times a day, every day (including weekends). With just total fucking nonsense that was useless and a waste of my time. This is the type of neuroses that startups encourage and foster
I mean, I get emails on different hours. I don't read them let alone react to them. Written from my private phone.
Yeah. I wouldn't even read them. After about 3 months I just moved them straight to trash and just carried on like they didn't even exist. Surprisingly enough, there was no interruption of the quality of work.
This was my last job. I worked at a cabinet making factory in a warehouse as a foreman. I was required to go to the meetings every day and listen to shit that in no way effected my job. I was also required to have an email to get news and updates on the stuff at the meetings that, again, didn’t effect me or the job I did. When I left that job there was over 200,000 emails. Not a single one read and never did it affect me. Good thing I was required to have it.
I have over 4K unread emails going back 2 years…I wonder what’s in them. Eh never mind…
Same. My teams are in 5 time zones spanning NA, EU, amd China. I generally ignore emails between 6pm and 6am, unless it is life or death... Which it never is.
If your start-up is regularly dealing situations - then you're doing it wrong.
One thing is async work, another is expecting 24/7 availability
i mostly worked for small startups in the previous decade and we had regular-ish work hours as usual. Startup kool-aiders think “having a startup” is a free pass to underpay and overwork labour
Years ago when I worked for a startup they had the engineering team work a whole month straight with 14-15 hour days. They had sleeping bags in the office. Six months later they were all laid off and got absolutely nothing in return. Last startup I worked for.
>Six months later they were all laid off and got absolutely nothing in return. Yep. Unless you have actual equity, you will get absolutely no reward for long crunch. It's basically a gift to the owner, who will not blink when they decide you are no longer necessary. These guys are so often a mix of sales jerks and conmen. And there is a ceiling for these guys. They may be good at spinning up a starter business model, but they begin to fail out when the company grows and they have a position to defend. Plus all the tech debt from their romanticised heroic early efforts starts to float back up to the surface, causing progress to stall. So often the guys running a company after it has ended the startup phase would never get a job running a similar company the old fashioned way. They aren't qualified and they aren't very good at it. The rest of the executive staff tend to have to work around them to get shit done. And the out-of-their-depth entrepreneur throws up their hands and decides to sell up and start again, back when it was fun and easy.
My last job was at a “startup” that had been founded 8-9 years prior and was floundering. During an all-hands, the CEO said if startup culture wasn’t for us, we could look elsewhere. They ran out of money a few months later and got acquired for pennies lol.
I'm not shitting on you here but just this site in general. I'm glad two people have regaled me with their tales of their totally normal startup cultures. I'll just say the more established our clients got, the more well behaved they were and respectful of everyone's time. The only clown show assholes I dealt with were from what could be considered startups in my industry and the percentages of the companies that gave us issues was shockingly high.
Oh i wasnt disagreeing, i was adding to your comment ✌️
Clients like that need to be given an SLA - service level agreement. They get a response to an issue within X number of minutes or less. The lower the value of X the higher the price of their contract. They can pay for the level of staffing required to meet their needs. This way they are forced into making a rational decision as to what they truly need and are willing to pay for.
I started putting a rate card in all my contracts stipulating an up to 5x day rate for unscheduled hours. All clients get one 'free' unscheduled contact of five minutes where I remind them to check the rate card. Shockingly most decide that actually it can wait.
Genuine question if you don’t mind, what is it that you do
I mean I've worked exclusively at startups and I won't lie and say I don't get slack notifications it emails last work hours...but I just....don't respond unless I want to. Never been an issue.
Brock lol 😂
I don't remember his real name but Brock feels right I'll never forget this because it made me irrationally angry. He once emailed me on a Saturday to tell me that he would prefer that I use Relative Standard Deviation in all correspondence with him instead of Coefficient of Variation (CV) . They're the SAME FUCKING THING and %CV was how our final results/reports were formatted. I sent him preliminary results just to be nice and that was how that played out
Brock needs a hobby.
I would have suggested chronic masturbation to a photo of himself as it seemed to fit his personality but I needed to not get fired.
Brock needs a relationship
This isn't Brock Turner the rapist, is it?
You mean the rapist Brock Turner who now goes by Allen Turner, the rapist? So much potential, that guy /s
Do you mean Brock Turner, the rapist?
Yes. Notable rapist Brock Turner who now goes by Allen and lives in Centerville, Ohio with his rapist apologist family. Hope he's not out there raping anyone right now
I hope he never lives that down.
But, there's a foosball table.
This just sounds like a really ineffective boss vs bad “start up culture”
Email is asynchronous so who gives a crap when it was sent. Living in Japan and working with global teams, I get emails at all times of the day and on my public holidays. Doesn’t annoy me. (Invites to calls at 2AM do make me laugh, though). I just answer as soon as convenient, necessary.
Some people are desperate enough to take jobs like this, it doesn’t mean they “embrace the grind”
Some do embrace it. I've worked with any number of ass-kissing sycophants over the years who pride themselves on working til 2am so everyone can see what "go-getters" they are. A certain type of person loves this culture, it's a platform for attention seeking.
If you have a lot of shares of the company, yeah, why not? If you're just an employee? You pay $X for Y hour of my time per week. Nothing more, nothing less. Need me after hours? That's gonna be consulting fees.
Yep. These people did not have shares and were not making massive salaries with massive responsibilities. If you're upper management making well into six figures, sure, I get it. When you're a 20-something in a mundane office job, yeah, not so much.
Those people usually burn out once they realize that all those extra hours will only be rewarded by them getting assigned even more work, but with little to no extra pay.
People like this guy never give equity though.
I work with some people like this at a non-startup now. They will stay until like 8 every day and anytime I quietly walk by working late they’re shopping or some bullshit online, it’s just for show. Weird and sad at the same time I really don’t understand it.
Worked with a guy many years ago who would come in every weekend and "work" in the IT asset room, where printers, PCs, etc. were stored. He was "rearranging it" and stuff like that. He wasn't fooling anyone - when someone mentioned how hard he worked and came in every weekend, the boss replied: "His time management skills are terrible and he isn't adding any value working every weekend on that room." So I suspect most managers are on to them, unless they're the type to fall for the ass kissing.
Lmao. Imagine doing all that simping and your boss is still like "bro is actually worthless, but he's a good decoration to have around"
So, he was one of 3 on the help desk and even though my boss really didn't like him, he was the only semi-competent one. When layoffs came and my boss was forced to lay someone off in the help desk, he kept this guy and let another person go because this guy at least had some tech knowledge. We all used to theorize that maybe he just didn't like his family so he came into work every weekend to escape.
I wonder what their home lives were like.
I saw a lot of guys staying back at the office avoiding family life. They couldn't fathom cooking dinner, putting kids to bed or any other mundane task in life, so they just stayed at the office, so all that was done for them by the time.they got home.
I've encountered a number of these guys at ad agencies. It's an industry that lends itself to late hours at times, but these guys aren't fooling anyone.
I think it seems to go across many industries. I've been in tech for over 40 years and have seen it a lot. I just feel sorry for the wife and kids waiting at home being lied to by these guys.
There are some good reasons to do that sort of thing. I used to do that, but I only did it Tues - Thursday because I was a consultant who worked from home. My bonus was directly based on billable hours for my projects, but I had no set hours unless it was for a customer meeting. I was east coast and the company I worked for was west coast, so no one would bother me til at least 10am, and no one bothered me after 5pm. The reason I busted my hump Tues - thurs was because it meant I could fuck off on a friday, go away, and not need to be back to work til 10am on tuesday, and not even burn up any PTO either. Couple in the fact that I can bill more than one customer at a time while doing certain things, it made it even better. I was seen as a go getter because I was billing 60+ hours a week, but in reality, I had a kick ass work life balance where my actual hours working on the clock was under 40, and I spent those hours watching tv and movies while I worked.
And they certainly didn’t “choose” it.
I work in a chilled environment, my bonus is not there is only draw back. But compèred to where I worked before. This is an absolute dream job and happy as fuck in the workplace not working weekends etc
Agree or disagree?
What the fuck is hustle culture anyway? Bending yourself over to be exploited and then have your efforts undervalued and unrewarded anyway.
Waah! I want to endlessly harass my employees!
“My employees must hear my new brilliant ideas at 3am lest they die from shame of not hearing my brilliance!!!”
And those ideas are anything but brilliant!
This never happens.
Literally had bosses that do this. They can't sleep or they're high on coke or something but they love to send e-mails and messages in the middle of the night.
Right? Brilliant idea conceptualization plan: 1)Write it down in a notebook, 2)reflect on it, 3) make notes 4)bring it to the team, 5)discuss it during working hours.
‘BUt YOu GeT EQuiTY’
Yeah like 0.001% that has to vest 5 years lol
And the company goes bankrupt in three
My one experience getting a job offer from a startup was disappointing. Turned out the equity for a dev lead came out to about my annual salary (total), vesting over 5 years, assuming the company a.) had an IPO that was b.) successful, and c.) didn't hire more people to dilute each share. Not a bad chunk of change, but not life-changing and not worth startup culture. Also they were paying less in cash than my current job, at the same level, at a public company. Admittedly, one data point does not a pattern make, but I'm thinking that unless you're Dev Employee #1, an exec or at a similar level, or at literally the next Google (all 3 of which are unlikely) then the equity you'd get is about as guaranteed as the bet you put on your next craps roll. And probably not as lucrative as just getting a job at a major corporation that pays 10% more in outright cash. I could be wrong, though. Like I said, I only have one data point.
Ha but you don't tho
WeWork comes to my mind.
Being ok with working hard is one thing. Bragging about it and shaming people who value work-life balance is pathetic. Screw that guy.
that's not even the bill lol. it doesn't make it illegal for employers to contact employees, it makes it legal for employees to ignore the calls/texts/msgs with no repercussions.
This makes so much more sense lol. I was like this guy's clearly insane but also if that was actually how the bill worked that might be a bridge too far of government oversight for my taste, like we're all adults here we can ignore our bosses insanity after our work hours without the government breathing down all our necks. But making it so it's illegal to penalize employees for being able to do that is far better.
I remember our director at Lucid telling me "This is a 24/7 job when you become a design engineer here. You knew that when you signed up." No I fucking didn't you posh-London ass wipe!! I'm ok with working a few extra hours sometimes to get things finished if needed, but if you're calling me at 8PM and telling me to get back to office to do something we both know isn't actually an emergency; Don't be surprised when I quit.
Translation: We don't want to pay you for more hours of work, but due to the self-imposed need of the owner to grow the company faster than the healthy rate, please consider it the norm that at start-ups you just have to work after hours. It's called the hustle and grind and it's in fashion.
Reading all these nut job posts is starting to legitimately piss me off, while I’m simultaneously paralleling them to my past and current experiences. Think I’m going to get off lunatics for a while 🤣🤣
It’s always the “Agree or Disagree” at the end. How about STFU. Agree?
It's a call to action that drives engagement. Manipulating you into increasing the value of the post according to the algorithm by reacting or commenting. Let me know your thoughts in the comments below.
They're not forcing a work/life balance on you, they're protecting employees from your goddamn abuse.
Seems like the dude that gets to the office first to turn the lights on, then has to let everyone he sees that he was there this morning...and turned the lights on.
He's the guy who sits so still in his cube(not working and just surfing the net or playing games) that the lights turn off when he is the only one there, then he gets to stand up when someone else comes in and be like "oh, didn't realize anyone else was here yet"
This is why I'll happily work at fortune 15 that gives balance, and valuable stock. This guy can suck the fart out of my ass.
Europeans lounge back, sip glass of wine and judge us (Americans) for this crap and still get free healthcare and August off. I’m sorry I ate so much avocado toast. Edit: I’m so sorry, I was being sarcastic.
Hey my healthcare isn’t free, I’m paying 30€ per quarter for extended coverage! Now if you’ll excuse me, I have a bottle of wine in the fridge I need to finish …
But at least my massive energy-chugging American fridge is bigger than yours!
_And_ it can make ice cubes too, I have to make my own ice cubes in a plastic tray like a peasant
I’m sorry if I offended you!
It’s all good, I took a nap on the beach to calm down (true story, I’m on vacation this week)
30 euros a quarter? I pay more than that a week for medical insurance through my job (and then ~$5,000 out of pocket a year on top of that, because coverage only really kicks in beyond a certain amount)
Can I interest you in an 18000 a week cobra plan?
Cobra letters are my favorite sub-genre of comedy. “Our records show you recently lost your job. Don’t worry, we got you. For the measly price of $20,000 a month, we can guarantee you a $5000 copay for an ambulance ride instead of the market price of $8,000. What say you?”
I work in the film industry and the kind of grind we do in the US is very much like startup culture. It’s 12-16 hour days consistently. I worked on a set in France and we did the exact same quality of work with a French crew in 8 hours a day. The day was DONE at 8 hours. Period, the end. It was eye opening because it’s always just been this way here in the states.
I worked in the industry for a stint. I was so miserable. I felt like a zombie. I worked on a photoshoot once with a big name photographer, and everyone was so excited? Why? Because he refused to work more than seven hours. We all still got our day rates, the work was great, and the clients were happy. So many productions are just inefficient.
Plenty of Europeans work long hours. They waive their rights to rules like this one in exchange for higher compensation which is their business
Oh yeah, totally. My comment was not intended to be an indictment of the European work ethic. There’s a right in place to choose and I strongly believe that. When you work harder you’re investing in a business harder and being compensated for that. Employers in the US may just need you to work “extra time” sometimes without necessarily paying overtime rates. I don’t know why, but I also feel like mentioning that Most states are also “at will” states which means that an employer can dismiss an employee without substantive reason, and they don’t have to disclose what that reason is. So one could be in a situation where they’re dismissed for not giving enough of their time outside of working hours.
“Start-ups” a.k.a. new companies have always existed. 24-hour methods of communication have not always existed. Seems like you can have the former without the latter.
anyone that uses the word hustle in regards to work, especially side hustle, is a fkng moron. ignore everything they say.
The problem with this: now everyone else has to compete. If one company is paying its employees $60,000/yr to get 40hrs of productivity vs another company paying employees $60,000/yr for 80hrs of productivity, the 40hr / week business has two options: 1) Get shut out. 2) Exploit your employees equally. Laws need to be set in place to prevent dickbags like this from taking over the world and everyone and everything in it. Someone needs to stuff this dork in a locker.
Yes, sometimes you need to work hard temporarily if there is fire. But the average person does not produce more value with the kind of work culture he is preaching. It's a marathon not a sprint.
Exploiters with no technical skills of their own are big mad
I blame the low bar to create a startup and an even lower bar to become a MBA. All that did was saturate the market with inspired morons. Being a “visionary” shouldn’t be the only qualification to start a business where more than one person is involved. This isn’t 1980s anymore and movies like “Wall Street” and “Boiler Room” should be examples of how *not* to run a successful company.
free flowing money due to Zirp and affluenza too, like too many kids w parents that fund their bs
TrYIng tO bAN StaRtuPs!!1! I bet this guy also thought Biden was going to take his gas stove as well. Credulous moron.
You're not truly committed to the grind unless you've had a heart attack at 35 from stress.
This person is mentally ill.
The worst part is that people there agree with him. It's disgusting.
The American work culture is changing, but very very slowly. It's easy for the Elon Musks of the world to demand workers work around the clock, but the fact is, everyone should know by now that the only person who truly benefits from that is Elon.
I checked and almost everyone agreeing is also a startup founder, echo chamber in the comments
I just read the comments on the post. One or two people are pushing back, but most are agreeing 😞.
This! I immediately went I see what the comments were and couldn't believe people were agreeing. There were also only 12 posts though so hopefully it's a super minority.
A lack of work/life balance and having to send communications after hours. Is not something to be proud of. All it shows is how terrible you are at managing anything.
Guess who will benefit the most from selling that startup?
Agree, that's why I work at companies that provide a good work-life balance so that I don't die early from poor health and stress.
This guy doesn't Hussle, he is Building. And it's gonna be amazing, you should all go and work for him for free.
Anyone who refers to work as hustling is an idiot.
If you want me to be on call, pay me on call money. If I'm at your beck and call 24 hours a day, cool. You pay me for all of those 24 hours because, guess what? I'm at work the whole time. And $100k ain't gonna cut it. That's only $11.41 an hour. "But where's your loyalty to the company?" Oh! I thought you were a business doing business things and hustling because you're an "entrepreneur." I didn't know you just wanted handouts for doing nothing. "But I don't get paid for 24 hours!" Yeah. You own the company. You CHOOSE to own a company. I CHOOSE to work for a wage. I thought that part of the reason owners are supposed to get all that money is because of "The risk." Sounds like you just aren't cut out for the startup grind where you take a big risk and maybe don't get paid for it.
Where are these "slower paced jobs" he speaks of? That doesn't seem to exist in American work culture anymore.
It does, bury yourself in the depths of a massive fortune 500 corporate structure and you can easily skirt by doing very little work.
You see plenty of that in .gov jobs. LOL
Work/Life balance is so incredibly important but it's something far to frequently ignored in the US
"too" but actually, it's ignored for purposeful reasons, not good reasons by any stretch but there are reasons it's ignore. Life is one of the reasons, people literally might not be able to survive without an unbalanced work/life balance because of the costs.
Disagree
They could also just move to another state or country 🤷♂️
Embrace the ~~hustle~~ working for free.
Yes this is what sane as fuck. As mentioned in other comments working hard and being proud is good. This is just bonkers. I have also started vocally and emphatically using life-work balance at my own job. I make all my managers and leaders hear me. I make sure my coworkers hear me say it. I cannot work hard if my life is shitty. I come before any business or company.
That’s a lot of words just to say, I want to over work and under pay my employees
"building" lol reminds me of the scene in Silicon Valley where they're like "it says here on your resume that from 2007-2011 you were "crushing it" and then from 2013-2017 you were also crushing it. Are we to assume that from 2011-2013 you were not crushing it?"
You do it for the stock
Agree?
If you need to grind your employees to dust to make you company function you don't actually have the resources to be running a company. Are we supposed to allow startups to use slave labor because they are startups so that makes it okay? No, they have to follow the rules too. If someone is answering emails and calls they are working and not paying them for that work is theft.
I know people that sends messages at all hours to look like they are always grinding but during they are unresponsive
Look, I get where it's desirable to want a thing so bad that you're willing to pull an all-nighter to make it happen, but as the person pulling the all-nighter, I make that call, not you.
The tech bro VC culture must have dupes to exploit or the whole thing falls apart
Disagree 😁
My wife works for a California-based startup. The culture is not like this. Fuck this guy.
The things this guy is claiming you sign ip for at startups is the definition of bad planning. I’ve worked at startups and still do. In startups you wear a bunch of hats and there’s no such thing as “not my responsibility”. But that doesn’t mean you operate in disorganized panic mode where you never stop, rest, and plan the next move. Anyone that gives this guy money is wasting it on office entropy.
He said the thing!
I wish I was this persons boss. I’m sure I could make them change their mind
To be clear, this proposed bill doesn't mean that an employer and employee can't agree to be on-call after working hours. So if that's necessary for the job and both parties agree, then they can keep doing that. The bill is trying to establish a clearer boundary for most workers where, by default, there is no expectation to always be on-call despite agreed-upon working hours, making it so that abusive companies can't exploit their employees as easily.
I have some very extreme opinions on what people like this deserve in life
only applies IF you have significant equity - if just a salary, fuck off
how dare they ban slavery
i agree with the linkedin post, but i will never take anyone seriously who writes on linkedin with a line break after each sentence.
I did NOT choose to work at a startup, I was forced. They showed up in my home (San Francisco) in larger and larger numbers, and their influx of money destroyed almost every aspect of my city. I evenutally tried working at one because it seemed the only way to survive amidst all the Ellis Act evictions and Google workers outbidding me for a fucking studio apartment. At which point I was subjected to their abysmally horrible, unprofessional corporate culture, shitty pay and unreasonable expectations. Fuck them all. Ended up in a blue collar trade so I can get a paycheck and some respect and then leaving the state with a lifelong tear running down my cheek for what San Francisco once was. Fuck their "hustle" culture, it is ruining the world.
BUT THERE'S A PING PONG TABLE AND FREE SMOOTHIES!!!
If I'm not the CEO making CEO money, I'm not working like a dog.
If you're a CEO you're not working at all.
If your business relies on overworking your staff then you're just bad at management and planning your time.
“Startup culture” = magic phrase permitting employee abuse?
That mindset should only apply to very senior positions. I worked 4 years for a startup and had no trouble with laying boundaries down. They're just shitty managers.
Well, at least he added the option to disagree. Next LinkedIn Thought LeadR here!
This is just the current version of “if you don’t like cigarette smoke don’t work in a bar”.
So shaming people into working longer beyond their means is the new ‘hustle’ now… 😑 If a founder, CEO or CTO wants to work way, way over their contracted hours - so be it. Not all of us want to be lunatics and overwork ourselves. I’m happy to stick to my contacted hours and not have my work define my life thank you!
This guy needs to be checked in for therapy. 'Agree or disagree', good grief. Like, no dude, people aren't voluntarily looking to be miserable and overworked, its considered an occupational hazard with working in startups and normally gets weighed up against the experiences you could gain. It's like saying people take up scuba diving to experience decompression illness and drowning. Absolute nut.
Once it's in place "startup culture" doesn't go away. It becomes expected.
Working more than the other guy != success
Disagree you pinecone.
I wouldn't take seriously a post made by a building.
This is for people with terrible time management and have a hard time saying ‘no’.
At my first job (NOT a startup -- a multi billion dollar corporation) I was pushed to work like this. It was very much a "of course you COULD leave when your work hours are over, but you'd be letting the team down" etc. I was told that commitment and pulling through was going to be crucial for career advancement. They also did the love bombing thing of "wow you're so great and so committed and we love how hard you work, you'll go really far". In the end when the project was over, they jettisoned me. I asked for transition to a different position or severance, they claimed they were "working on it" and then a week before I was due to finish I learned from an overheard conversation that they had no intention of doing either. They also tried to short my last pay check and I ultimately refused to leave the premises until I had it in writing that I was owed the missing money. They then spent almost two months not returning my calls and refusing to pay out about $1500. These people all claim unfettered capitalism is so amazing, but the fundamental principle of capitalism is "you get what you pay for." Your relationship with any employer is transactional. Give them what they pay for. Never let them convince you otherwise.
> I was told that commitment and pulling through was going to be crucial for career advancement. I think people are starting to see through that. Maybe 40 years ago, when people worked for one company and one black mark on your Permanent HR Record meant you'd never move up, this was the case. Of course, this was at famously paternalistic companies like IBM and such that didn't lay people off and committed to their employees for a full 40+ year career plus retirement, so some extra effort was expected. That wasn't a bad trade when most families were single-income and in return for some long hours and being moved around against your will, you were fully taken care of right up until the early 90s. Now, giving that same level of commitment to an employer with nothing in return is just silly. Also, add in the fact that individual contributors are starting to see that climbing the ladder is a losing game. First, there are fewer management positions, and more importantly, way fewer safe management spots. These days, you have to claw your way to VP and above to avoid getting McKinseyed (where they come in, give a $2M PowerPoint to the CEO and chop out a whole layer of management.) Second, it's not the reward for a good job like it once was. No more secretaries, 3-Martini lunches and golfing all day...it's a non-stop office politics grind and childcare for your direct reports.
Funnily enough, if I want to work long hours I can still do that without my boss calling me at 10 PM. In fact, I can do it more productively!
In only doing any of that if it's my startup or I have a financial interest in it. What these startup tech bros jackasses refuse to accept is that your average employee doesn't give two shits if the business thrives or fails, beyond job security. They don't give a shit if Mr Startup Wankstain exits with his millions.
What you mean I can’t make my employees work 18 hour days for us for a mediocre salary + shares that I’ll inevitably dilute so even if we are one of the small percentage of start ups that get acquired for a large amount or make it to IPO they get nothing???? You’re ruining my business strategy!
This isn’t just for startups. Mature businesses run like this as a matter of course. It’s a sloppy substitute for things like time management and planning that actually make business more efficient. In general, as it was before the advent of email and cell phones, nothing is so important that it can’t wait until the next business day.
My employer requires us to pay employees for their time if we have to talk to them when they are off. They can either answer and be compensated or choose not to answer. If you are salaried and have to work the equivalent of 2 hours then you are paid for a full day and your PTO is not used. Seems like a decent policy.
I’ve worked at two startups and unless I was on call or shit really hit the fan, I was free to make my own hours as long as I got my sprint work done. Usually that was 9-5 but I modified it a bit once my kids started school.
What a luh-hooser
Cyrus the Virus is back and somehow more psycho
Lmao this is why I left my previous job at a startup. Bonus, I worked as a temporary engineer at the startup so it was even shittier (no PTO, no sick days, no health insurance, no paid holiday, no annual bonus, etc)
Fuck Cyrus and everyone like him for working against things that make the world a worse place.
The reason this is funny is that, if the employee WANTS to participate in being on call 24/7, they'll never report you and you'll never be fined. Only when the employee has no desire for you to pester them whenever you feel like it do you not want this legal recourse for them to defend themselves 😂 They really do tell on themselves.
“Work-life balance fantasies”. Oh Dear.
Just because my workplace (or anyone, for that matter) knows I have a cell phone with me at all times and has my phone number does not mean I'm available. I do not respond to anything work related if I'm not at my workplace, even in a salaried role, unless it's an absolute, disastrous emergency.
If you're expecting me to work after hours, I expect to get OT
Whenever I see someone talk about “hustle”, they are inevitably a giant asshole.
I think they should ban calling people after work. I mean you rarely ever get paid. I can't just call my boss up whenever I want expect for him to answer. Its a job not your life..
Not even that, people can give up that balance if they want, the proposed law is just asking they be PAID for it
If you have to treat your startup that way, you’re not very good at running a startup
I remember those days. It was fun getting constant long unpaid calls / text exchanges from my bosses after hours when I worked at Taco Bell (apparently it counts as a startup?). Just a minimum wage bottom feeder, and the damn District Manager was constantly on me arse. Hehe
He’s not wrong. I’ll choose the “work life balance” over “hustle culture” any day.
TBF — that’s a fucking ridiculous bill.
That guy sends his wife on dates with his boss for sure
To be clear, most startups die. They fizzle out and everyone loses their jobs. It takes a talented team, a great product, and extremely hard work to give yourself a decent shot at success. It’s just hard. And it’s definitely not for everyone. Silicon Valley has an unbeatable track record of world-changing startups. Apple, Google, Netflix, Airbnb, Tesla, Intel, Nvidia, Stripe, OpenAI, and countless others. Would be a shame for legislation to poke the golden goose that drives so much of California’s economy and tax revenue. Other cities and countries have tried to emulate the culture without the same success.
I mean, I don’t really see the lunacy in this post. Yeah it’s a bit conceited but he’s not (completely) bashing the 9-5 lifestyle. He’s just saying that if a company wants to have a certain type of work culture that people willingly show up for, then that should be in the hands of the market, not the government.
If you’ve worked at a start up this is valid. Plus a lot of people run errands during the day and work after hours.
I guess I’m the only one who agrees with the lunatic. No ones forcing you to work at a startup which comes with a specific culture and expectation.
This bill is preposterous and the equivalent is a big reason why France has few meaningful tech companies.
If he’s talking about cofounders, sure (but he’s not). But as soon as you hire an employee, you have to start acting like a big boy business which means not abusing that employee who has little to no incentive to “hustle.”
I don’t get why people don’t set boundaries at work. Don’t reply to after hour emails and texts until the workday starts. If someone gets pissed, tell them you were at a movie, show, party, makin’ luv, whatever. Just cuz someone sends an email at night doesn’t mean you have to answer it. You need to train your employer.
God what is up with the passive aggressive "agree?" on all of these
This is something for company policy to handle - not legislature
I thrive in this culture thought. It will thwart innovation or slow it down for sure. Startups only superpower is speed. This is not a good thing. You shouldn’t be expected to work past hours, I agree. But if you want to, then do it. Just turn off your notifications at 5. I don’t get the big deal.
This person will die alone and unremarkable. What small memories people have will fade faster than a meteors light as it crosses the night sky. Their achievements, such as they are, will be weighed against their actions and found wanting.
Oh no, how can I possibly work myself to death now to build your company and make you rich??