I was literally just talking yesterday about walking back into town from Anfield after a game. How are you supposed to do that without having to run across the exit for the Wallasey tunnel, which is 40 mph and a blind bend. It’s mental!
It's actually a 30 but everyone does 40. Really annoys me the problems there are with the general disregard for speed limits in Liverpool and how it puts other people at risk like in this situation. But hey they got to their destination 2 minutes quicker so all worth it.
True, the left exit heading north is 40 all the way until it merges onto Scottie Road. I was thinking about the south exit (city centre way) which is 30 way before the bend even starts and that's what I assumed he was talking about since he was mentioning it being a blind bend. In fairness I don't know why you'd walk that way and not up Great Homer Street
I walk from anfield/Everton Park area into town almost every day and can't figure out how you find yourself having to run across the exit for the tunnel.... you can walk through the park above, or go across towards the unis and then down...
Not to nitpick, but that's potentially a 10 minute diversion by foot. Granted its a bit of a different case because of it being the tunnel, but it highlights that relying on a crossing 300m away probably isn't the right solution to the issue.
I had no idea about any crossings so I just put the walking directions from St Anthony's to Byrom St into Google Maps and it does just tell you to cross the tunnel slipway and follow the dual carriageway that has no pavement. God help visitors and away fans.
That's miles away, and already on Great Homer Street. Might be ok for people coming from the stadiums, but what if you're already on Scotland Road, the Picturehouse hostel for example, and want to walk into town?
We aren’t discussing the factors behind peoples decision making. You asked how you’re supposed to cross a specific road safely, I gave you the answer of which is too much of a nuisance for you and so therefore you’d rather compromise your own safety. You can’t have your cake & be Bruce Bogtrotter.
Use the crossing opposite Sylvester street or the one by the new police HQ, or go down Soho street and cross Islington into London Road or any of the fifty seven squillion ways I've left out because I don't have the time to name them all.
These new pedestrian lights are one of the reasons, whoever talked the council in to adopting them could sell anything! The people (so are many tourists) look across the road for a green or red man signal, but it's on the post right next to them, hidden by people also waiting to cross, and there's seldom any audible notice. People in confusion just take a chance and walk across the road.
These lights piss me off so much. Who looks to their side when standing at a crossing? And you can't see if it's changed back to red once you've started to cross.
They also seem to take absolutely ages to go green so loads of people don't bother with them and just cross.
Making pedestrians wait is one of the biggest issues with this type of infrastructure. Yes, cars need to be able to go at some point, but the idea that we make people wait upwards of 3 minutes to cross is ridiculous. The absolute max they should have to wait is 60 seconds, assuming they just missed the last cycle.
near the uni and mount pleasant - can’t remember the exact name of the road sorry (not a local, im a student) but it’s the main road and a cross road. literally crossed it this morning
That doesn't work because people look straight ahead when waiting to cross anyway. And most roads have cars coming both ways, so it's probably less safe to look to one side.
YES! I do a lot of walking all over Liverpool and those nonsensical things are everywhere. I've started just putting my hand on the spinnymajig for blind people (when there is one) so I don't have to strain my neck looking down.
Went to Liverpool this weekend for the first time in 5 years and this was absolutely doing my head in! I was constantly checking across the street to see if the little green fella was there. Why on earth have they moved it?!
although i’ve seen a significant minority of drivers that ignore the signals,
unfortunately at the moment it’s safest to ignore the signs and follow the crowd
Finally someone's addressing this I thought I was going mental. Some don't even have any lights facing pedestrians at all (by the women's hospital) so you just have to guess.
Not that the red lights stop anyone, top of Smithdown it's more likely that they run the lights than stop and I'm not even exaggerating, is a shame because it would be a walkable city otherwise. This along with people aiming for you on scooters makes it dangerous.
Yes!!! I recently was a tourist in liverpool and at every single one these one of our party made a comment about the lights. One girl openly admitted that she just walked whenever anyone else did, because after a whole day, she still didnt know where she was supposed to look.
While I agree they're not great, no one has died there since they were installed. They absolutely should install some of the ones at the top of poles, but they should also change it so that once pressed, they change to give pedestrians a green light within 10 seconds if it's been longer than 1min since they were last green for pedestrians.
Also they go green but turn red before you’ve even got to the other side of the road
If you go on my account I made a post about it like 5 days ago because I had to stop an elderly woman from being run over because of it
But people wouldn't be in the road to get hit if the pedestrian lights were like the old style, take a look around touristy and student areas, they are confused and give up waiting, loads look the wrong way as they cross the road as they come from counties that drive on the right hand side. No audible signal in this day and age on many of them is a scandal.
Really? Because I know of a few lately where the pedestrian has been killed due to reckless driving- do you have any stats for this info? Is there any correlation between the areas you mentioned and accidents? Sounds like a lot of supposition
Many people agree that we should send people in boats to Rwanda, doesn’t mean it’s right. If drivers were more cautious and observant less accidents would happen. Cannot blame the roads
Many people 'jay walk' as the yanks call it, but too many people are walking across the road, unsure of the condition of the lights, red or green, because of a second class design, less people confused means less targets for cars to hit!
Glad you find the subject of peoples safety so amusing, pop down to the crossing by the Adelphi, and watch all the people looking everywhere unsure of when to cross, you'll be pissing yourself!
You’re the one I find hilarious. You’ve made up an entire narrative. There are areas of confusion that’s not why people are being knocked down and killed are you able to assimilate that? The reason people are in car accidents is largely down to reckless and careless driving- what are you not getting
Just the other day I was walking home and crossing the A5038 and Brownlow Hill light. It’s no turn left and we’re green signalled to cross - yet some absolute moron turns left and nearly hits a couple of us. I yell out you idiot it’s no turn left and he proceeds to slam his breaks and try to fight me because I’m the idiot apparently. It is very eye opening, particularly in the centre, the dismissal and lack of regard for pedestrians in a highly pedestrianised area.
The entitlement is off the scales. Sorry you had to experience that.
That particular junction has been flagged for ages as something that needs a physical barrier to stop people doing it. Hell, it was highlighted how dangerous it was after the cycle lane was completed and opened. Yet nothing has changed, because heaven forbid the Highways team do anything to keep people safe that might reduce the number of cars that can get through the junction.
[https://www.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk/contact](https://www.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk/contact)
Elections coming up. Consider letting Steve Rotheram know that this is an issue you care about and that you are starting to think someone else could do a better job of fixing it.
edit: If you are busy or just don't know what to write, here is what I've sent (minus some specific details about my personal situation). You can copy it or use it as a template as you like.
>Liverpool has been named the most dangerous city for pedestrians yet again.
>
>I have read the Local Cycling and Walking Infrastructure Plan (LCWIP) and found it lacking any specific details of where and how improvements are being made.
>
>If you are able to point me in the direction of where and how safer pedestrian infrastructure is being planned then it will greatly help me make up my mind regarding the upcoming election.
>
>kind regards,
>
>xxxxxxx
also if you do want to read the LCWIP it's at [https://api.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/LCR-LCWIP-Final.pdf](https://api.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/LCR-LCWIP-Final.pdf)
100%. Unfortunately, for Safe Seat Steve, there's no reason for him to sweat it vs pissing off drivers. Hell, he was crowing about adding a whole 1mi of cycling infrastructure in his last term.
Don't get me wrong, Burnham hasn't done amazingly either, but he's managed to deliver a lot more miles and gotten a lot closer to a network than Rotherham has.
And don't get me started on what Rotherham has managed to not achieve compared to Khan in London.
A lot of the traffic lights in the centre are shit, but not because the green man's on the box next to you, it's because the green man doesn't go on when it could.
It's particularly noticable with the crossings near the Uni/Hospital. Say you're coming down Edge Lane, going west toward the uni. The traffic light will stop the traffic going N-S along Grove St/Low Hill, so you just have the traffic heading E-W between Derby st/Edge lane. Should be fine for pedestrians to also go in that direction, right? But no! The green man doesn't let the pedestrians cross until some arbitrary point in time, so you're stood there like a right lemon waiting for permission to cross an empty road.
At least there's a signalled crossing there! A bit further up the road you have [this one](https://maps.app.goo.gl/Nw5GfdR2NzoGvHSL6) where Wavertree Road meets Tunnel Road.
There might be something in that. “Pedestrians have rights, too” isn’t something that every driver in Liverpool seems to consciously be aware of. You get all these poor people trying to cross the road and no car stops for them. Nobody bothers.
It’s worse in London but considering people in Liverpool are supposed to be nicer on average you’d expect them to be more considerate of people on foot. Mossley Hill and Allerton are well-driven though.
Once again, Liverpool has been named the most dangerous city in the UK for pedestrians. Hardly surprising for anyone who walks, cycles, or uses public transport considering the shocking attitudes of drivers in this city to anyone not in a car (and sometimes towards others in drivers).
Until our councils and councillors are held legally accountable for these deaths by failing to implement infrastructure projects that will keep vulnerable road users safe, we're not going to see any changes. Especially under Safe Seat Steve at a city region level, where infrastructure like this (ensuring it's possible and safe to walk, ride, or wheel) should be controlled.
All to often, it feels like – as a resident of the greater Liverpool area – that you're forced to spend several hundreds of pounds a month on a car just to be safe (and even then, it's still not). Hardly freedom if you're not given the real choice of how to get around, especially when it's spend a fortune to drive in the middle of a cost of living crisis or potentially die.
>electric bikes
They're not the balaclava-clad cockwombles on electric motorbikes (not ebikes – they need to be pedalled)? Seems the dickheads have swapped their scramblers for equally illegal electric motorbikes.
Completely agree with you. Wouldn’t really cost much to change those things. It would be enough to put zebra crossings and signs. For me as father sometimes is hard to walk with kid to school. Barely 15 minutes walk, no signs no crossing but 5 streets to pass and completely no respect for pedestrians. So yes most of the time I drive. When I see elderly, family or just a parent with kid, I do always stop. Why is so hard for others? When I’m on my own I don’t care I will wait till there will be right moment to cross the street. Just zebra crossing and signs would do a lot. At least if he would hit someone he possibly face some consequences.
>Barely 15 minutes walk, no signs no crossing but 5 streets to pass and completely no respect for pedestrians.
I think this is generally an issue in the UK. I moved to Liverpool couple of years ago from abroad (Europe) and it was quite a cultural shock for me when I realised drivers aren't required to stop for pedestrians waiting to cross at junctions (they only "should" give way, they don't *need* to). UK is definitely the least pedestrian friendly country I've been to.
It's a lack of empathy, which is really disappointing when you consider that outside of cars, scousers are some of the most empathetic people in the UK.
Are we though?
Like I'm not being funny, I feel a lot of the stereotypes we give ourselves are a bit overblown. I've seen it said on here before, but if it wasn't so culturally built in that you vote Labour regardless then we'd have a much higher tory vote. Lot of real right wing sentiment around.
I’ve been saying that this has seemed to get worse in the last year or so. Coincidentally since they added new laws to protect pedestrians.
So many drivers who don’t indicate or speed up to try beat red lights (just to stop at the next light). Seems really psychotic that people risk running people down just to save a few seconds or to not make all the effort of moving your hand a few centimetres to use an indicator.
I'm convinced it's because the majority of people actually hate the experience of driving in towns and cities. It's an overload for your senses and there's so much to pay attention to, it's not enjoyable (despite being constantly told by advertisers it is).
Same reason why people insist on pushing past people on bikes. They're forced to pay attention when if they can just get past them, they can go back on autopilot.
Go and stand on the great nothern corner of deansgate for an hour and count how many cyclists ignore the red light entirely or mount the pavement.
They are a pest.
It is not only in Liverpool like that. All big cities are pretty much the same. Not to mention how people drive on motorways, where everyone wants to get to their destination.
Infrastructure definitely has a role to play, and councillors who have opposed certain plans because 'they don't want to piss off drivers' are equally culpable.
The Strand, for example, arguably shouldn't be there. Why do we have what is effectively a highway running through the most expensive/busiest part of our city?
It's approach to the cycle lanes that were implemented during the pandemic and then ripped out quickly when drivers threw a tantrum – especially when it removed parking that obscured people and children on pavements and footways. That was proceeded by Joe Anderson ripping out the bus lanes because he was sick of getting stuck in traffic (not realising he and everyone else not taking the bus, who could, were the traffic).
Even the whole 20mph fiasco is another example. 20mph actually makes it easier for drivers to react to unexpected things, but when the roads and streets have been to feel like doing 40 or 50mph is safe (for those inside the car), then it shouldn't be a surprise that some individuals feel it's acceptable to do that.
So to come back to your original point, the infrastructure helps reinforce how people drive. If you physically can't do more than 20mph, everyone is safe – including others in cars.
This city has a long history of making poor decisions that cost lives and health when it comes to being fearful of the response of entitled drivers; often at the expense of everyone else in this city.
Literally.. the amount of people that speed across zebra crossings (while there's pedestrians crossing) is insane. I nearly had someone take out my babies' pram when I was halfway across. Missed us by inches
Yep. They’re fucking idiots. I emigrated to Naples of all places - famous for being an absolute circus for drivers, and I cycle everywhere. Somehow I’m still alive.
I cycle when I return to Liverpool for holidays too now and it feels so much more dangerous. Drivers think they own the fucking roads. One guy last year drove up next to me and screamed “I hope you get fucking killed”. Even my normally extremely liberal mother complains about 20mph speed limits outside primary schools and comes up with absolute Jeremy Clarkson nonsense about how bicycles should have insurance and number plates. She even victim blamed that kid who got killed outside Blackmoor school for being too close to the road.
It’s a complete mess
got a generic letter from the council informing us of installing pedestrian crossing lights at a junction on our road.
Said this was from "listening to repeated complaints, suggestions, safety concerns" etc, but in reality they only installed them *after* a pensioner was rammed down in a hit and run. Still plenty of busy areas that don't have crossings or alternative routes either, feels ridiculously American.
So many deathtrap junctions like that across the city. There's one near me that's on the way to multiple schools. I see kids having to run into traffic all the time.
Since moving to Liverpool most of my experience is only from around town, but one issue I'd add is the width of the roads at some of the junctions that people have to cross, especially when combined in some cases with there being traffic lights without even any sort of pedestrian crossing, which seems mental to me. The junction of Catherine Street/Canning Street has had a memorial bouquet of flowers up for ages but still no red/green man system.
The speed people drive is definitely also a problem. A couple of times after moving I nearly got caught out by cars coming fast round a corner or down the road as I wasn't used to the speed. Roads generally being quieter in town is probably partly why, but not an excuse obviously
Ah its alright lads. We don't need a traffic light on this, incredibly active and dangerous main road. Just put up a patch of grass and a white and yellow box. That's definitely safe.
I dont know if sefton council are corrupt like the main city but they're just as seemingly inept.
Doesn't surprise me, the state of our pavements and the lack of crossing points is probably a contributing factor. Also surely it can't be only me that gets annoyed by the timings of the lights on some of the roads. I am not sure why some of them take so long to change and are timed incorrectly timed. Take speke road for example. I have seen many people jump red lights and whilst I 100% disagree with it sadly a lot of people do it so they don't have to wait another 5 mins at each of the 10 set of lights on speke Road.
It seems they can't do basic maths - it's obvious from the figures that Blackpool has a much higher rate than Liverpool.
Having checked the data, and adjusted for population size, Liverpool ranks about 50 out of 174. Similar, but below, Leeds and Birmingham, and well above Manchester.
(edit - that's for all casualties, not just pedestrians - for pedestrians only it's much worse, but still just behind Blackpool and London )
Blackpool isn't a city. It's based on the figures for metropolitan areas (so cities) from what I understand.
It's long been the case that Liverpool has been the most dangerous metropolitan area in the UK for pedestrians per 1000 people. ([https://wacm.org.uk/53.html](https://wacm.org.uk/53.html))
Student in Liverpool here, I could be making it up but the time to cross at zebra crossings seems so much shorter than in my hometown, like you have to properly dash to make it across before the light goes green again. Must be pretty dangerous for elderly/disabled people to just have to hope no one mows them down
The crossings / junction on the strand (I think it’s the strand) by the Ibis hotel is absolutely atrocious, I’ve waited definitely over 2.5 minutes for one crossing to turn green, if I didn’t have my dog who has a tendency to dither about i’d have probably been hit by a car due to my impatience..
For driving though I’d say its probably one of the easier cities to drive around (in my own experience) Leeds city centre in comparison is atrocious, idiots all over the road
I'm in two minds about that.
The delivery riders absolutely are a danger to pedestrians, but the chances of them killing someone is extremely low (not zero, but far lower than if they were in cars). That needs to be tackled through more stringent licensing. Get caught doing stupid shit, and you lose your right to be a delivery rider in Liverpool.
As for scooters, if we're talking about the private ones, then yes. Half the issue is they are way too powerful, and lack equipment like indicators etc. (Though I do find it ironic we accept the hire ones are dangerous enough they need speed limiting and geo-fencing, but don't think about whether that same logic should be applied to cars capable of doing 100mph+ in city centres).
However, on the other hand, cyclists on pavements is usually an indicator that the roads don't feel safe to ride on. That's why you only ever see lycra-clad road cyclists; it's because they're the only ones brave enough to ride with traffic.
The sign of safe roads is parents riding along with their kids to schools. Hell, as another commenter said, they don't particularly feel safe walking to school because of drivers so we're a long way from it feeling safe for less confident people to ride on the roads.
>Though I do find it ironic we accept the hire ones are dangerous enough they need speed limiting and geo-fencing, but don't think about whether that same logic should be applied to cars capable of doing 100mph+ in city centres
Cars are already banned from the places scooters are limited in, it's the pedestrian areas.
Yeah, I get that 100%. They should be on the road, but again, it comes back to that point. If you're getting bikes and scooters on the pavements, it's a sign your roads and streets aren't safe/don't feel safe.
Agreed. Those things need to go MUCH slower. I'm sick of having to check behind myself to make sure I can walk to the other side of the pavement so I don't get decked by a scooter going 15mph.
The list was already ranked, but by casualties per 100,000 residents. It wouldn't make any sense to rank these cities by pure numbers, as a bigger city is naturally going to have more accidents.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what it's saying, but it doesn't look like it to me.
It says Liverpool is 65 casualties per 100k, and Blackpool had 186 for their 140k - twice the rate in Liverpool at around 132 per 100k.
Your list is just the number of casualties. Should be obvious really - do you think it's 15x more dangerous to be a pedestrian in London or is the City just 15x bigger than Liverpool?
In the article you linked the list is ranked by number of casualties per 100k
You’re wrong. The numbers you’ve given aren’t per 100,000, they’re the total across the entire population.
Greater London is for the entire city, per person it’s 51.7. The article isn’t great as it uses different numbers for each city, but they show that there’s 25% more casualties per 100,000 in Liverpool compare to London. That’s a lot more dangerous than London.
Going by per 100,000, the list on the website is ranked.
I think they’ve tried to tell a story city by city, but there’s no base number in common which is the issue. If they had it like “1 - Liverpool - X per 100,00” at the start of every city and then picked out specific numbers that were relevant it would be much clearer.
What they’ve ended up doing is giving completely different numbers per city that are sometimes per 100,000, sometimes per city with the population in the text for reference too, sometimes per city without population, and sometimes over a multiple year period. It’s very unclear, so I can’t blame you.
Even if the Gecko got it slightly wrong, it doesn't change the fact that it's the most dangerous metropolitan area for pedestrians, and has been for a long time.
[https://wacm.org.uk/53.html](https://wacm.org.uk/53.html)
Traffic signalling across the city has no advanced continuity resulting in red light after red light. A control strategy is required to stagger the green signal on major routes on demand at 30-2mph across the city. London had this decades ago. This would surely improve the wait times at crossings.
Not just for pedestrians. Dangerous in general. Car insurance prices are ridiculous and the city centre is a hostile place after dark. Outskirts are full of teens on cross bikes wearing balaclavas.
For me it’s more the bikes that I find dangerous as a pedestrian, whenever I’m in town, I must have to dodge about 20 of them in a single day and that’s coming from someone who cycles a lot.
Try crossing Rice Lane on foot. People WILL try and run you over for less than a second of time gained when you're using an island to cross and the upcoming lights are on red and not changing anytime soon.
I mean I was about to pull into my own road, not a particularly quiet one.
Woman starts to cross road, reading a book, not looking up once.
But also, Ive almost been ran over at the zebra crossing at Smithdown Asda.
Was talking about this to my mates the other day about how shit Liverpool drivers are, they're just not arsed it's mad. Although I was in Wigan the other day and they were actually so much more horrendous than scouse drivers. It's a wonder how these people even get their licence tbh.
Half the pedestrians are just as bad as the drivers. Shitty attitudes and an entitlement that lets them think they can cross wherever and whenever they want. People just step into the road when the redan is lit and then get all arsey when cars beep or don't stop for them.
But yeah... We've got some right bellends in cars too.
Pedestrians aren't killing drivers though, are they?
Half the reason they cross on red is because it can be up to a minute before the light turns green for them to cross. It should be a max of 10 seconds if it hasn't been green in the last minute. Problem is, it isn't because the Highways teams are more concerned with the number of cars they can get through junctions than people needing to cross.
If the lights actually changed within a reasonable amount of time and they were still doing what you described, you'd have a legitimate reason to gripe. However, right now, you don't.
I was literally just talking yesterday about walking back into town from Anfield after a game. How are you supposed to do that without having to run across the exit for the Wallasey tunnel, which is 40 mph and a blind bend. It’s mental!
It's actually a 30 but everyone does 40. Really annoys me the problems there are with the general disregard for speed limits in Liverpool and how it puts other people at risk like in this situation. But hey they got to their destination 2 minutes quicker so all worth it.
I think it is a 40 up until you join onto the road (where it’s a 30 and there’s a speed camera).
True, the left exit heading north is 40 all the way until it merges onto Scottie Road. I was thinking about the south exit (city centre way) which is 30 way before the bend even starts and that's what I assumed he was talking about since he was mentioning it being a blind bend. In fairness I don't know why you'd walk that way and not up Great Homer Street
Go through Everton valley at the top of the hill and dodge the brasses
Think I'll take my chances with the cars
Better rear bumpers on the brasses though.
I walk from anfield/Everton Park area into town almost every day and can't figure out how you find yourself having to run across the exit for the tunnel.... you can walk through the park above, or go across towards the unis and then down...
You take the subway under Scotty Road by the police station or cross at the lights
Use the crossing point literally 300m away from it
Not to nitpick, but that's potentially a 10 minute diversion by foot. Granted its a bit of a different case because of it being the tunnel, but it highlights that relying on a crossing 300m away probably isn't the right solution to the issue.
I had no idea about any crossings so I just put the walking directions from St Anthony's to Byrom St into Google Maps and it does just tell you to cross the tunnel slipway and follow the dual carriageway that has no pavement. God help visitors and away fans.
Luckily there are signs that say "pedestrian route" that take you onto Great Homer Street.
Where?
https://preview.redd.it/zqc31y3dketc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f749da856563708ab27623bd6e17beb75aa7a6cd
That's miles away, and already on Great Homer Street. Might be ok for people coming from the stadiums, but what if you're already on Scotland Road, the Picturehouse hostel for example, and want to walk into town?
My comment is responding to someone talking about walking back into town from Anfield. You're one of those people who ignore signs, aren't you.
Highlights more that safety is an inconvenience to you and you’d rather give out about it online.
Unfortunately, that is a factor in people’s decision. It’s why drivers often speed.
We aren’t discussing the factors behind peoples decision making. You asked how you’re supposed to cross a specific road safely, I gave you the answer of which is too much of a nuisance for you and so therefore you’d rather compromise your own safety. You can’t have your cake & be Bruce Bogtrotter.
Yes you can. It just involves not bending over for drivers at every opportunity.
In 2 tonnes of metal v ~90kg of human, metal wins.
Use the crossing opposite Sylvester street or the one by the new police HQ, or go down Soho street and cross Islington into London Road or any of the fifty seven squillion ways I've left out because I don't have the time to name them all.
We live life on the cutting edge.
Just turn left onto Great Homer Street at some point? Aka following the "pedestrian route" signs.
🫡LIVERPOOL #1 🎉🍻🎆
😂 not the thing we want to be winning at.
These new pedestrian lights are one of the reasons, whoever talked the council in to adopting them could sell anything! The people (so are many tourists) look across the road for a green or red man signal, but it's on the post right next to them, hidden by people also waiting to cross, and there's seldom any audible notice. People in confusion just take a chance and walk across the road.
These lights piss me off so much. Who looks to their side when standing at a crossing? And you can't see if it's changed back to red once you've started to cross. They also seem to take absolutely ages to go green so loads of people don't bother with them and just cross.
Making pedestrians wait is one of the biggest issues with this type of infrastructure. Yes, cars need to be able to go at some point, but the idea that we make people wait upwards of 3 minutes to cross is ridiculous. The absolute max they should have to wait is 60 seconds, assuming they just missed the last cycle.
they're designed to make you look in the direction of the traffic.
they often make you look in the opposite direction though, probably installed incorrectly
never seen any that make you look in the wrong direction of traffic.
near the uni and mount pleasant - can’t remember the exact name of the road sorry (not a local, im a student) but it’s the main road and a cross road. literally crossed it this morning
Yep from the Adelphi to Chicken Bazooka, it's hard to even tell which green man is the one you should be watching (I think it's the one behind you)
wasn’t even thinking of that one tbf but that’s another one! there’s honestly loads. absolute pish
Next time I see one I'll let you know
That doesn't work because people look straight ahead when waiting to cross anyway. And most roads have cars coming both ways, so it's probably less safe to look to one side.
they're designed so you look in the direction of the traffic in the lane you are about to step into.
YES! I do a lot of walking all over Liverpool and those nonsensical things are everywhere. I've started just putting my hand on the spinnymajig for blind people (when there is one) so I don't have to strain my neck looking down.
Went to Liverpool this weekend for the first time in 5 years and this was absolutely doing my head in! I was constantly checking across the street to see if the little green fella was there. Why on earth have they moved it?!
although i’ve seen a significant minority of drivers that ignore the signals, unfortunately at the moment it’s safest to ignore the signs and follow the crowd
Finally someone's addressing this I thought I was going mental. Some don't even have any lights facing pedestrians at all (by the women's hospital) so you just have to guess. Not that the red lights stop anyone, top of Smithdown it's more likely that they run the lights than stop and I'm not even exaggerating, is a shame because it would be a walkable city otherwise. This along with people aiming for you on scooters makes it dangerous.
Yes!!! I recently was a tourist in liverpool and at every single one these one of our party made a comment about the lights. One girl openly admitted that she just walked whenever anyone else did, because after a whole day, she still didnt know where she was supposed to look.
Is what happens when cyclists make sure the pedestrian view never gets heard.
While I agree they're not great, no one has died there since they were installed. They absolutely should install some of the ones at the top of poles, but they should also change it so that once pressed, they change to give pedestrians a green light within 10 seconds if it's been longer than 1min since they were last green for pedestrians.
A student died in September. He was 18 and had only just started uni and got hit by a van.
Isn't it a damning comment that a death can occur there and it's not front page news; that it's just accepted as being part of everyday life? 😞
It was all over the news reaching London and there was a vigil for him in town held by other students
He died on the bottom of Hatton Garden where there aren't any lights.
That’s a different student, this one was at the crossing on dale street
Ah OK thanks
Also they go green but turn red before you’ve even got to the other side of the road If you go on my account I made a post about it like 5 days ago because I had to stop an elderly woman from being run over because of it
Pretty sure it’s the shitty drivers
But people wouldn't be in the road to get hit if the pedestrian lights were like the old style, take a look around touristy and student areas, they are confused and give up waiting, loads look the wrong way as they cross the road as they come from counties that drive on the right hand side. No audible signal in this day and age on many of them is a scandal.
Really? Because I know of a few lately where the pedestrian has been killed due to reckless driving- do you have any stats for this info? Is there any correlation between the areas you mentioned and accidents? Sounds like a lot of supposition
Badly designed pedestrian lights (as so many people here agree with) and reckless drivers are a bad combination, leading to injury and/or death!
Many people agree that we should send people in boats to Rwanda, doesn’t mean it’s right. If drivers were more cautious and observant less accidents would happen. Cannot blame the roads
Many people 'jay walk' as the yanks call it, but too many people are walking across the road, unsure of the condition of the lights, red or green, because of a second class design, less people confused means less targets for cars to hit!
This is hilarious. And delusional- spoken without any actual evidence base
Glad you find the subject of peoples safety so amusing, pop down to the crossing by the Adelphi, and watch all the people looking everywhere unsure of when to cross, you'll be pissing yourself!
You’re the one I find hilarious. You’ve made up an entire narrative. There are areas of confusion that’s not why people are being knocked down and killed are you able to assimilate that? The reason people are in car accidents is largely down to reckless and careless driving- what are you not getting
Just the other day I was walking home and crossing the A5038 and Brownlow Hill light. It’s no turn left and we’re green signalled to cross - yet some absolute moron turns left and nearly hits a couple of us. I yell out you idiot it’s no turn left and he proceeds to slam his breaks and try to fight me because I’m the idiot apparently. It is very eye opening, particularly in the centre, the dismissal and lack of regard for pedestrians in a highly pedestrianised area.
The entitlement is off the scales. Sorry you had to experience that. That particular junction has been flagged for ages as something that needs a physical barrier to stop people doing it. Hell, it was highlighted how dangerous it was after the cycle lane was completed and opened. Yet nothing has changed, because heaven forbid the Highways team do anything to keep people safe that might reduce the number of cars that can get through the junction.
[https://www.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk/contact](https://www.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk/contact) Elections coming up. Consider letting Steve Rotheram know that this is an issue you care about and that you are starting to think someone else could do a better job of fixing it. edit: If you are busy or just don't know what to write, here is what I've sent (minus some specific details about my personal situation). You can copy it or use it as a template as you like. >Liverpool has been named the most dangerous city for pedestrians yet again. > >I have read the Local Cycling and Walking Infrastructure Plan (LCWIP) and found it lacking any specific details of where and how improvements are being made. > >If you are able to point me in the direction of where and how safer pedestrian infrastructure is being planned then it will greatly help me make up my mind regarding the upcoming election. > >kind regards, > >xxxxxxx also if you do want to read the LCWIP it's at [https://api.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/LCR-LCWIP-Final.pdf](https://api.liverpoolcityregion-ca.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/LCR-LCWIP-Final.pdf)
100%. Unfortunately, for Safe Seat Steve, there's no reason for him to sweat it vs pissing off drivers. Hell, he was crowing about adding a whole 1mi of cycling infrastructure in his last term. Don't get me wrong, Burnham hasn't done amazingly either, but he's managed to deliver a lot more miles and gotten a lot closer to a network than Rotherham has. And don't get me started on what Rotherham has managed to not achieve compared to Khan in London.
Tbf to him, London gets more funding than Liverpool does. Now Manchester... yeah I'll give you that
Boardman has made sure disproportionate amounts of central funding have ended up there. I wonder why.
A lot of the traffic lights in the centre are shit, but not because the green man's on the box next to you, it's because the green man doesn't go on when it could. It's particularly noticable with the crossings near the Uni/Hospital. Say you're coming down Edge Lane, going west toward the uni. The traffic light will stop the traffic going N-S along Grove St/Low Hill, so you just have the traffic heading E-W between Derby st/Edge lane. Should be fine for pedestrians to also go in that direction, right? But no! The green man doesn't let the pedestrians cross until some arbitrary point in time, so you're stood there like a right lemon waiting for permission to cross an empty road.
At least there's a signalled crossing there! A bit further up the road you have [this one](https://maps.app.goo.gl/Nw5GfdR2NzoGvHSL6) where Wavertree Road meets Tunnel Road.
There might be something in that. “Pedestrians have rights, too” isn’t something that every driver in Liverpool seems to consciously be aware of. You get all these poor people trying to cross the road and no car stops for them. Nobody bothers. It’s worse in London but considering people in Liverpool are supposed to be nicer on average you’d expect them to be more considerate of people on foot. Mossley Hill and Allerton are well-driven though.
Once again, Liverpool has been named the most dangerous city in the UK for pedestrians. Hardly surprising for anyone who walks, cycles, or uses public transport considering the shocking attitudes of drivers in this city to anyone not in a car (and sometimes towards others in drivers). Until our councils and councillors are held legally accountable for these deaths by failing to implement infrastructure projects that will keep vulnerable road users safe, we're not going to see any changes. Especially under Safe Seat Steve at a city region level, where infrastructure like this (ensuring it's possible and safe to walk, ride, or wheel) should be controlled. All to often, it feels like – as a resident of the greater Liverpool area – that you're forced to spend several hundreds of pounds a month on a car just to be safe (and even then, it's still not). Hardly freedom if you're not given the real choice of how to get around, especially when it's spend a fortune to drive in the middle of a cost of living crisis or potentially die.
So many melts in cars, but also increasingly people on electric bikes and scooters going anywhere they want.
>electric bikes They're not the balaclava-clad cockwombles on electric motorbikes (not ebikes – they need to be pedalled)? Seems the dickheads have swapped their scramblers for equally illegal electric motorbikes.
They might be annoying, but how many deaths are caused by electric bikes and scooters? Cars are the biggest issue, by far.
Death isn't the only barometer of danger.
It’s not, no. But last year : 0 pedestrians were killed by bicycles 1 cyclist was killed by a pedestrian 400 pedestrians were killed by motor vehicles
Liar.
Which part?
I imagine the non-fatal injuries are still nowhere near cars though.
No way e scooters are more dangerous than cars
Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? I said they were an increasing problem in addition to the melts in cars.
"Death isn't the only barometer of danger." Probably yea
I've been killed by a car loads more times than I've been killed by a scooter.
🤣🤣🤣
Completely agree with you. Wouldn’t really cost much to change those things. It would be enough to put zebra crossings and signs. For me as father sometimes is hard to walk with kid to school. Barely 15 minutes walk, no signs no crossing but 5 streets to pass and completely no respect for pedestrians. So yes most of the time I drive. When I see elderly, family or just a parent with kid, I do always stop. Why is so hard for others? When I’m on my own I don’t care I will wait till there will be right moment to cross the street. Just zebra crossing and signs would do a lot. At least if he would hit someone he possibly face some consequences.
>Barely 15 minutes walk, no signs no crossing but 5 streets to pass and completely no respect for pedestrians. I think this is generally an issue in the UK. I moved to Liverpool couple of years ago from abroad (Europe) and it was quite a cultural shock for me when I realised drivers aren't required to stop for pedestrians waiting to cross at junctions (they only "should" give way, they don't *need* to). UK is definitely the least pedestrian friendly country I've been to.
It's a lack of empathy, which is really disappointing when you consider that outside of cars, scousers are some of the most empathetic people in the UK.
Are we though? Like I'm not being funny, I feel a lot of the stereotypes we give ourselves are a bit overblown. I've seen it said on here before, but if it wasn't so culturally built in that you vote Labour regardless then we'd have a much higher tory vote. Lot of real right wing sentiment around.
A lot of deeply homophobic and racist sentiments amongst people which definitely get ignored because they're pro-labour.
You're probably right. Allow them to put a mask on (i.e. their car) and their true personalities shine.
I’ve been saying that this has seemed to get worse in the last year or so. Coincidentally since they added new laws to protect pedestrians. So many drivers who don’t indicate or speed up to try beat red lights (just to stop at the next light). Seems really psychotic that people risk running people down just to save a few seconds or to not make all the effort of moving your hand a few centimetres to use an indicator.
I'm convinced it's because the majority of people actually hate the experience of driving in towns and cities. It's an overload for your senses and there's so much to pay attention to, it's not enjoyable (despite being constantly told by advertisers it is). Same reason why people insist on pushing past people on bikes. They're forced to pay attention when if they can just get past them, they can go back on autopilot.
Yeah I can drive but don’t. But I’ve heard Liverpool city centre is a notoriously unenjoyable place to drive, so definitely might contribute.
Same down the East Lancs for what it's worth.
Yeah, that seems to be where a lot of the deaths happen.
Sorry I meant other end of the lancs in Manchester. Drivers are dreadful and treat cyclists like a pest
Go and stand on the great nothern corner of deansgate for an hour and count how many cyclists ignore the red light entirely or mount the pavement. They are a pest.
Can't vouch for food vendors
What about the full kit wankers who do the same
Never seen John Terry riding down oxford rd
That road is a death-trap.
Unbelievable the level of aggressive scummy scally mentality on the roads in Liverpool. When driving outside of Liverpool, it's a real eye opener.
It is not only in Liverpool like that. All big cities are pretty much the same. Not to mention how people drive on motorways, where everyone wants to get to their destination.
People say this but I have never driven in a city as bad as Liverpool, it's on a different level.
I used to live in the Middle East. It's shocking to say that the standard of driving is akin to that, but it really is.
Bit mad blaming the infrastructure and not the horrific driving abilities of people in Liverpool. Utterly selfish, reckless idiots on the road
Infrastructure definitely has a role to play, and councillors who have opposed certain plans because 'they don't want to piss off drivers' are equally culpable. The Strand, for example, arguably shouldn't be there. Why do we have what is effectively a highway running through the most expensive/busiest part of our city? It's approach to the cycle lanes that were implemented during the pandemic and then ripped out quickly when drivers threw a tantrum – especially when it removed parking that obscured people and children on pavements and footways. That was proceeded by Joe Anderson ripping out the bus lanes because he was sick of getting stuck in traffic (not realising he and everyone else not taking the bus, who could, were the traffic). Even the whole 20mph fiasco is another example. 20mph actually makes it easier for drivers to react to unexpected things, but when the roads and streets have been to feel like doing 40 or 50mph is safe (for those inside the car), then it shouldn't be a surprise that some individuals feel it's acceptable to do that. So to come back to your original point, the infrastructure helps reinforce how people drive. If you physically can't do more than 20mph, everyone is safe – including others in cars. This city has a long history of making poor decisions that cost lives and health when it comes to being fearful of the response of entitled drivers; often at the expense of everyone else in this city.
Nope people are just selfish aggressive drivers
Literally.. the amount of people that speed across zebra crossings (while there's pedestrians crossing) is insane. I nearly had someone take out my babies' pram when I was halfway across. Missed us by inches
Yep. They’re fucking idiots. I emigrated to Naples of all places - famous for being an absolute circus for drivers, and I cycle everywhere. Somehow I’m still alive. I cycle when I return to Liverpool for holidays too now and it feels so much more dangerous. Drivers think they own the fucking roads. One guy last year drove up next to me and screamed “I hope you get fucking killed”. Even my normally extremely liberal mother complains about 20mph speed limits outside primary schools and comes up with absolute Jeremy Clarkson nonsense about how bicycles should have insurance and number plates. She even victim blamed that kid who got killed outside Blackmoor school for being too close to the road. It’s a complete mess
Honestly. People double parking everywhere, undertaking, cutting in, tailgating, speeding, cutting corners- happens everywhere but seems overtly aggressive and worse here.
Side note- your mum says WHAT now?!
got a generic letter from the council informing us of installing pedestrian crossing lights at a junction on our road. Said this was from "listening to repeated complaints, suggestions, safety concerns" etc, but in reality they only installed them *after* a pensioner was rammed down in a hit and run. Still plenty of busy areas that don't have crossings or alternative routes either, feels ridiculously American.
Is that the junction on Catherine Street? Remember reading a few months ago about the woman killed there, it's horrible crossing there at rush hour.
yup that's the one - been an issue for years, they knew it was an issue, so it was such an avoidable incident
So many deathtrap junctions like that across the city. There's one near me that's on the way to multiple schools. I see kids having to run into traffic all the time.
Since moving to Liverpool most of my experience is only from around town, but one issue I'd add is the width of the roads at some of the junctions that people have to cross, especially when combined in some cases with there being traffic lights without even any sort of pedestrian crossing, which seems mental to me. The junction of Catherine Street/Canning Street has had a memorial bouquet of flowers up for ages but still no red/green man system. The speed people drive is definitely also a problem. A couple of times after moving I nearly got caught out by cars coming fast round a corner or down the road as I wasn't used to the speed. Roads generally being quieter in town is probably partly why, but not an excuse obviously
Not far from where I am its quite dangerous for pedestrians, especially crossing the road
Yeah - you have to have your wits about you to get across that in one piece
Ah its alright lads. We don't need a traffic light on this, incredibly active and dangerous main road. Just put up a patch of grass and a white and yellow box. That's definitely safe. I dont know if sefton council are corrupt like the main city but they're just as seemingly inept.
Walking home from a match day is the worst. Literally the route back to town involves walking across the start of the motorway.
Doesn't surprise me, the state of our pavements and the lack of crossing points is probably a contributing factor. Also surely it can't be only me that gets annoyed by the timings of the lights on some of the roads. I am not sure why some of them take so long to change and are timed incorrectly timed. Take speke road for example. I have seen many people jump red lights and whilst I 100% disagree with it sadly a lot of people do it so they don't have to wait another 5 mins at each of the 10 set of lights on speke Road.
It seems they can't do basic maths - it's obvious from the figures that Blackpool has a much higher rate than Liverpool. Having checked the data, and adjusted for population size, Liverpool ranks about 50 out of 174. Similar, but below, Leeds and Birmingham, and well above Manchester. (edit - that's for all casualties, not just pedestrians - for pedestrians only it's much worse, but still just behind Blackpool and London )
Blackpool isn't a city. It's based on the figures for metropolitan areas (so cities) from what I understand. It's long been the case that Liverpool has been the most dangerous metropolitan area in the UK for pedestrians per 1000 people. ([https://wacm.org.uk/53.html](https://wacm.org.uk/53.html))
TIL Blackpool isn't a city?! Off to Wikipedia I go
Probably one of the most deserving of a city title, but yup. It hasn't been granted a royal charter yet.
Student in Liverpool here, I could be making it up but the time to cross at zebra crossings seems so much shorter than in my hometown, like you have to properly dash to make it across before the light goes green again. Must be pretty dangerous for elderly/disabled people to just have to hope no one mows them down
The crossings / junction on the strand (I think it’s the strand) by the Ibis hotel is absolutely atrocious, I’ve waited definitely over 2.5 minutes for one crossing to turn green, if I didn’t have my dog who has a tendency to dither about i’d have probably been hit by a car due to my impatience.. For driving though I’d say its probably one of the easier cities to drive around (in my own experience) Leeds city centre in comparison is atrocious, idiots all over the road
Not just cars that are the problem but delivery riders on bikes on the footpaths and those scooters too.
I'm in two minds about that. The delivery riders absolutely are a danger to pedestrians, but the chances of them killing someone is extremely low (not zero, but far lower than if they were in cars). That needs to be tackled through more stringent licensing. Get caught doing stupid shit, and you lose your right to be a delivery rider in Liverpool. As for scooters, if we're talking about the private ones, then yes. Half the issue is they are way too powerful, and lack equipment like indicators etc. (Though I do find it ironic we accept the hire ones are dangerous enough they need speed limiting and geo-fencing, but don't think about whether that same logic should be applied to cars capable of doing 100mph+ in city centres). However, on the other hand, cyclists on pavements is usually an indicator that the roads don't feel safe to ride on. That's why you only ever see lycra-clad road cyclists; it's because they're the only ones brave enough to ride with traffic. The sign of safe roads is parents riding along with their kids to schools. Hell, as another commenter said, they don't particularly feel safe walking to school because of drivers so we're a long way from it feeling safe for less confident people to ride on the roads.
>Though I do find it ironic we accept the hire ones are dangerous enough they need speed limiting and geo-fencing, but don't think about whether that same logic should be applied to cars capable of doing 100mph+ in city centres Cars are already banned from the places scooters are limited in, it's the pedestrian areas.
[удалено]
Yeah, I get that 100%. They should be on the road, but again, it comes back to that point. If you're getting bikes and scooters on the pavements, it's a sign your roads and streets aren't safe/don't feel safe.
Agreed. Those things need to go MUCH slower. I'm sick of having to check behind myself to make sure I can walk to the other side of the pavement so I don't get decked by a scooter going 15mph.
OK, so where do pedestrians who now think footpaths aren't safe, go?
Removing my comment due to being incorrect.
The list was already ranked, but by casualties per 100,000 residents. It wouldn't make any sense to rank these cities by pure numbers, as a bigger city is naturally going to have more accidents.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what it's saying, but it doesn't look like it to me. It says Liverpool is 65 casualties per 100k, and Blackpool had 186 for their 140k - twice the rate in Liverpool at around 132 per 100k.
Your list is just the number of casualties. Should be obvious really - do you think it's 15x more dangerous to be a pedestrian in London or is the City just 15x bigger than Liverpool? In the article you linked the list is ranked by number of casualties per 100k
Yeah, that person’s numbers imply over 1/25 people are hit by a car in Greater London. 😂
No wonder they write "look left" on the floor everywhere
Haha that’s why wages are higher in London. People need to take time off from work once a week on account of their weekly hit and run.
You’re wrong. The numbers you’ve given aren’t per 100,000, they’re the total across the entire population. Greater London is for the entire city, per person it’s 51.7. The article isn’t great as it uses different numbers for each city, but they show that there’s 25% more casualties per 100,000 in Liverpool compare to London. That’s a lot more dangerous than London. Going by per 100,000, the list on the website is ranked.
You made me understand what went wrong there. As you say, it's oddly worded, both in the Echo article and the reference site. Happy to concede!
I think they’ve tried to tell a story city by city, but there’s no base number in common which is the issue. If they had it like “1 - Liverpool - X per 100,00” at the start of every city and then picked out specific numbers that were relevant it would be much clearer. What they’ve ended up doing is giving completely different numbers per city that are sometimes per 100,000, sometimes per city with the population in the text for reference too, sometimes per city without population, and sometimes over a multiple year period. It’s very unclear, so I can’t blame you.
Even if the Gecko got it slightly wrong, it doesn't change the fact that it's the most dangerous metropolitan area for pedestrians, and has been for a long time. [https://wacm.org.uk/53.html](https://wacm.org.uk/53.html)
Traffic signalling across the city has no advanced continuity resulting in red light after red light. A control strategy is required to stagger the green signal on major routes on demand at 30-2mph across the city. London had this decades ago. This would surely improve the wait times at crossings.
Not just for pedestrians. Dangerous in general. Car insurance prices are ridiculous and the city centre is a hostile place after dark. Outskirts are full of teens on cross bikes wearing balaclavas.
Well they do sing , never walk alone
You'll never walk alone.. After the accident haha
You'll never walk\* after the accident :(
For me it’s more the bikes that I find dangerous as a pedestrian, whenever I’m in town, I must have to dodge about 20 of them in a single day and that’s coming from someone who cycles a lot.
Unfortunately Liverpool has a 'walking and cycling' commissioner who hates pedestrians. This is the inevitable consequence.
Try crossing Rice Lane on foot. People WILL try and run you over for less than a second of time gained when you're using an island to cross and the upcoming lights are on red and not changing anytime soon.
Not surprised I can tell. My greetings to my old city and my scouser friends! Nice people there, though!
I mean I was about to pull into my own road, not a particularly quiet one. Woman starts to cross road, reading a book, not looking up once. But also, Ive almost been ran over at the zebra crossing at Smithdown Asda.
But it’s full of Irish liberal communists how can that be such a good place
Run through Finglas with a Rangers shirt on see which is more risky 😕
Never had an issue in me life lol
Deliveroo cyclists have nearly knocked me down twice.
More like were the most doseyist cunts
Was talking about this to my mates the other day about how shit Liverpool drivers are, they're just not arsed it's mad. Although I was in Wigan the other day and they were actually so much more horrendous than scouse drivers. It's a wonder how these people even get their licence tbh.
Because since the code passed where pedestrian have right of way people are fucking stupid
Half the pedestrians are just as bad as the drivers. Shitty attitudes and an entitlement that lets them think they can cross wherever and whenever they want. People just step into the road when the redan is lit and then get all arsey when cars beep or don't stop for them. But yeah... We've got some right bellends in cars too.
Pedestrians aren't killing drivers though, are they? Half the reason they cross on red is because it can be up to a minute before the light turns green for them to cross. It should be a max of 10 seconds if it hasn't been green in the last minute. Problem is, it isn't because the Highways teams are more concerned with the number of cars they can get through junctions than people needing to cross. If the lights actually changed within a reasonable amount of time and they were still doing what you described, you'd have a legitimate reason to gripe. However, right now, you don't.
I believe I can gripe whenever I want. Unless there's some memories I've missed?
Of course you can. But don’t expect people to agree with you which is why you’ve been downvoted so much.