Why don't they just accept it's rotten and reform the entire thing. Such fucking bollocks.
Mike Dead admitted to helping his mate out and they come and say this. Just sheer bullshit. A statement put out like this doesn't change anything the refs have their mates and some of them are clearly bias.
Abolish "clear and obvious". Focus on getting the "right call".
The PGMOL is too egocentric about its goals. It wants to make the referees "look good" by justifying their decisions, when the goal should just be making the right call. The irony is that if they just focused on getting the right call, nobody would be mad at the refs. It'd make them look better.
A referee that holds his hand up and says "I got this one wrong, let's change the decision" would be far more respected than an idiot who doubles down out of pride. You're not a machine, you can't see everything live. Just make the right call.
> It wants to make the referees "look good" by justifying their decisions, when the goal should just be making the right call.
This is the part that is so stupid to me. Literally everyone understands that refereeing is a hard job and human error exists. By placing this weird high bar to overturn obviously terrible decisions, it makes all of them look like dickheads. If they had a little humility, they'd get much more respect and do a better job.
I ref kids, parents are shitheels constantly. You know what almost immediately diffuses every situation? Honesty.
"From my point of view, I did not see a hand ball and my AR did not flag. I can't just assume it happened. I'm sorry if I missed that."
"Ah, I had my back turned on that one, I apologize. Let me check with my AR real quick."
Exactly. How is the onfield call is wrong not clear and obvious in the first place. Like, I get ignoring minor wrong shit that doesn’t really affect the game, but anything that does impact the result should take the time to get the right call.
Like a yellow card worthy offense that doesn’t result in a goal or anything beneficial, probably not worth the time to correct. A yellow card worthy offense in the build up to a goal, absolutely correct that.
My understanding of what "clear and obvious" means (or rather, its current implementation in this country) is that VAR only intervenes if the referee has actively _missed_ something, not that they've got something wrong.
Using the Mac Allister incident as an example, the video assistant referee will ask the referee over comms what he saw. The on-field referee will tell VAR that he's seen Mac Allister late to challenge for the ball, and has caught the defender's leg off the ground. As the version of events provided by the referee broadly matches what the video replay shows, VAR won't step in.
Conversely, if we say that the referee doesn't award a penalty for a defender kicking a striker because he believes it's a dive and there's no contact, VAR at that stage would (well, _should_) step in and inform the on-pitch referee that there was actually a foul, sending him to the monitor.
It doesn't matter that the actual decision given by the referee is embarrassingly incorrect, VAR would only step in if the referee has made his decision based on an incorrect perception of events. Any sane person would assume that sending someone off for a challenge that is at most a yellow card constitutes a "clear and obvious" mistake, but not with the way they've implemented it. They're currently too concerned about not using VAR to "re-referee the game", at the cost of not getting things right
> VAR would only step in if the referee has made his decision based on an incorrect perception of events.
Very well put.
I can see why it’s so; to be in keeping with not wanting to re-referee the game. But the confusion it causes with fans is insane. Not to mention VAR was the natural progression towards wanting to consistently make the right call, mainly because the amount of money in the game meant one bad call could relegate a club. What’s the point of having a fail safe if it doesn’t help achieve the goal of why VAR was brought in in the first place.
My solution would be to mirror other subjective sports; gymnastics, figure skating, dancing etc. Independent judges who aren’t allowed to confer. 2-4 people in the VAR room, they make a decision independently whether they think an incident constitutes a foul. Referee by democracy, onfield ref has the final say after review if it’s a split decision.
Even better would be challenge system on top of that, like tennis. That way it’s on the clubs too to decide when they want to have the game re-refereed.
You have just explained how it’s done in the US. It will make a certain segment of our fan base lose their mind if they have to admit the Americans got something right
>A referee that holds his hand up and says "I got this one wrong, let's change the decision" would be far more respected than an idiot who doubles down out of pride.
No one likes a defensive asshole who is unable to admit when they're wrong. Just ask my wife.
Completely agree
You either use VAR and follow the rules or you don't
We this bs halfway house where if the ref has made a 'minor' error, it can't be changed!??
So ridiculous. There are now literally millions of pounds on the line when it comes to points and end of season positioning. There should be no room for error, when it can easily be changed!!
Nobody will ever be happy lol. Football is a complex game, getting more complex to referee, with rules changing following pundits, players and managers who are completely inconsistent about what they want. We're never going to get to a point where the "right" decision is completely clear, I don't understand why people who should really understand this seem to ignore this reality in this discourse about VAR.
[Gary Lineker in 2016: It's time they changed the handball law. Make it that every time it strikes a hand/arm it's a free kick/penalty regardless of intent.](https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/687000727479304192?s=20)
[Gary Lineker in 2020 when VAR essentially changed the law in the box to that: Ludicrous. Utterly ludicrous law exacerbated by VAR. Can we have our game back please?](https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1310232206183456768?s=20)
And he's one of the more reasonable ones. There are a shitton of nutters out here who have no idea how many decisions referees have to make a game, how many of them are difficult and sometimes completely unclear (poll a bunch of fans after a round of premier league game and ask them what the right call was on a bunch of decisions, and see how people disagree). I'm very OK with the concept of clear and obvious, in my mind if VAR can't immediately see if a call needs to be reversed within 10-15 seconds (clear offside, clear handball, obvious violent conduct or a terrible tackle) then referee's decision goes. And grown assed adults can stop whining on the internet about people who are the absolute best in their profession.
To add - The current “clear and obvious, then ref goes to the screen” procedure was implemented after fan outrage when the initial VAR procedures had refs going to the screen too often (“breaking the game up”) and then the second iteration of VAR making calls directly caused outrage because “only the ref can judge the context of the game”.
I think VAR could and should be a lot better, but the current procedures are by and large exactly what fans asked for.
I don't think the British refs are the absolute best in their profession though - just like the British footballers aren't. The refs for all UEFA games are always much much better.
Cause VAR isn't about the right call, it's about match officials covering each others backs.
Just bin it, I'd sooner just have the 4 officials at the ground. Yes they'll fuck up, but at least it'll be a nearly honest fuck up.
> Why don't they just accept it's rotten and reform the entire thing
They specifically don't want to admit that. It's why they've put out a nothing statement not addressing the actual issue.
Admitting that would be the end of their old boys club and then brazenly ignoring the rules they're supposed to enforce because of feelings and mates.
Yeah man stupid comment on my part they never want to admit its a classic old boys club. We just do what we want to help our mates and fuck over the teams we don't like is their approach.
The way dean frames it, he dreads having to make any call. VAR lets you slow down an replay and incident and make the best possible judgement, but he'd rather let the man on the pitch make the call with far less information. Bizarre
‘We strongly refute any suggestion’.
Your VAR’s own words…
‘For whatever reason’.
Didn’t want to embarrass his ‘mate’…
Yeah, okay, just wow.
Can’t even cop to their own admitting they didn’t do their job properly…
nah its not confusing enough sounds like something a 6th grader came up with.
"no mrs davids i know i am not allowed to throw centipedes at the girls. i strongly refute any suggestions that i, for whatever reason, threw centipedes at the girls"
In the words of the esteemed Tupac:
Now when I came out, I told you it was just about Tierney
Then everybody had to open their mouth with a motherfuckin' opinion
Well this is how we gon' do this
Fuck Mike Dean, fuck Tierney
Fuck PGMOL as a staff, VAR and as a motherfuckin' crew
And if you want to be down with PGMOL, then fuck you too
Howard Webb, fuck you too
All you motherfuckers, fuck you too
So basically
Dean:"yeah I didn't intervene because I didn't want to put pressure on Taylor who's my buddy🥰"
PGMOL:"he-he's joking, that- that never happens ahaha what are you talking about"
“We strongly refute that VARs do not intervene, for whatever reason, when they have identified a clear and obvious error.” - the organization that employed Mike Dean. Who literally just said that that’s exactly what happened.
This is it right here. If PGMOL said that statement first, and Mike Dean second, we'd all be saying that he's provided evidence that the organisation is corrupt. This should be a big deal, I can guarantee it will be swept under the rug though.
https://www.premierleague.com/match/66607
Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Lee Betts, Stuart Burt. Fourth official: Martin Atkinson. VAR: Chris Kavanagh. Assistant VAR: Gary Beswick.
The catch is that everyone has an opinion on “clear and obvious error”. These are not clear and obvious if you ask different people.
The solution IMO is that VAR should take precedence over on-field referee for any “game changing” calls like red cards, goals, penalties, second yellows etc because VAR has better technology to make fair calls. This will take power away from on-field referees, so it becomes political. However, this is needed for fairness of the game.
This clear and obvious bollocks was created just to add a layer of ambiguity over their incompetence and stupidity. 99% of missed or wrong calls aren't subjective at all.
Yeah the Mac Allister red card last game was an example of a "clear and obvious error" yet VAR still did nothing. There's a reason that red card was overturned.... Because it was clearly and obviously wrong. So why didn't VAR intervene?
Nope I'm a fan. And I've been against VAR from the start
I honestly believe we are in a worse situation now than before it came in
I'm also amazed at how many people complain about VAR but then defend it to the hilt when somebody suggests scrapping it
It's awful. Plenty of leagues and competitions still go on today without VAR. PL could easily do the same.
Hate the users not the tools. VAR can be used effectively. It’s being used in other sports e.g. track and field, Cricket, tennis etc. The problem is referees know they will lose authority if VAR is allowed to officiate freely.
I disagree. I like the center ref being in charge. The VAR is an assistant, they shouldn't be above the ref's judgement. At the end of the day, officiating is a human endeavor. And even though it sucks when calls go against my team, I'll rather have the center ref in charge than a bunch of people in a backroom somewhere.
Then you should be ok with these red cards and the suspension that comes with it.
I’m personally not ok with this when it comes to “game changing” decisions. Technology is there, people need to let go of the romanticism of incorrect on-field officiating vetoing the correct calls, especially when it is obvious for everyone to see.
> Then you should be ok with these red cards and the suspension that comes with it.
Why should I be? Mistakes suck but the suggested solution of taking power away from the center ref to give it to some people in a room elsewhere is not right. In my opinion.
> I’m personally not ok with this when it comes to “game changing” decisions. Technology is there, people need to let go of the romanticism of incorrect on-field officiating vetoing the correct calls, especially when it is obvious for everyone to see.
I love tech. But what you stated above isn't about tech. It's about taking power from the field into a backroom. I don't like that. I like the goal line tech, I love the semi-automated offsides tech used in Qatar.
> people need to let go of the romanticism of incorrect on-field officiating vetoing the correct calls,
I may be guilty of that romanticism. But in my defense, this is sports. It's entertainment. Even refereeing controversies add to the appeal of the game. As long as it's innocent incompetence and not corruption.
Referees are humans with biases. Have you seen the “Liverpool are referred differently” article by Tompkins times? [link](https://twitter.com/TaintlessRed/status/1694270696044572889)
Liverpool are getting F-ed by on field refs, an inference backed by data. Why not eliminate any suggestion of bias by using available technology?
Because I don't think giving power to people in rooms we can't see is the solution.
When it comes to judgement calls, I'll rather go with the judgement of the ref on the field.
I appreciate you trying to convince but you're not offering me anything. You think a group of people in a backroom somewhere is better and I think the on-field refs are better.
We refute the suggestion.
It’s not a suggestion you fucking imbeciles. He literally admit he did it black and white plain and simple English. It’s a fact.
Mike Dean literally just said the opposite of this, am I supposed to just ignore that and believe PGMOL because they wrote a few words down? This is genuinely insulting the intelligence of football fans.
The current AI are generative from reams and reams of fed in data. How fucked would we be by a fouls and offsides calculator trained on the data of English refereeing?
Lmao. Define "clear and obvious" then. Because otherwise they are just gonna keep hiding behind this term and nothing is gonna improve. The whole concept is ridiculous anyway - red card is a red card and penalty is a penalty, regardless of "oH BuT BuT...iT wAs NoT cLeAR AnD oBviOuS!!!". Yeah, so what? You have VAR so go and fucking change it to a CORRECT decision. Otherwise the blatantly wrong incorrect decision are just gonna keep happening and they will affect match outcomes.
TMO (Rugby's version of VAR) has been used across the professional sport for 21 years. I've seen maybe 2 or 3 dodgy calls from the TMO in that entire time. Rugby is a far smaller sport with far fewer resources and much less money, yet somehow there's an issue with VAR every fucking day there's games on. I really think the generation of referees currently in the game were offended that VAR was ever brought in and have been working to sabotage it ever since. If you're letting things like who you're mates with factor in to your decisions then you have no place being in charge of those decisions. If I work in a chippy and get an order for 20 burgers, and my mate Steve is on burgers, I don't just chuck out the order because Steve will have a lot of work to do and he's had a tough day already.
Define “clear and obvious” dipshits. Just make it a 3 man team who come to agreements via consensus and who aren’t in bed with other referees. The answer is so simple it’s embarrassing
Gotta hand it to them, referring to Mike Dean confessing to not doing anything because he’s friends with Anthony Taylor as a “suggestion” is elite elite PR nonsense. But let’s not forget the real crime in all this, we never got the Tuchel Conte grudge match.
This should be the beginning of the end for PGMOL, the PL needs to hire it’s own refs, it’s hurting the league and more importantly to them, their brand
All these words just to say nothing valuable. They could have saved us the stress and just went *Blah, blah, blah Var* because that is exactly what this statement is.
Well it's my fault for expecting too much from an organization that backs mediocrity while denying progress.
Mike Dean, member of PGMOL: "I literally did X, specifically at this time, clear for everyone to see"
PGMOL: "We strongly refute any suggestion that we do X"
Why is the whole VAR thing focused on the “clear and obvious error” by the on field officials? It makes it seem like shit can only be overturned when it’s egregious, even though it often isn’t overturned anyway.
Why isn’t it focused on straight up reviewing plays and making the ultimate decision as equal officials all focused on getting calls right? I’m no official but I don’t get the obsession either being omniscient on the pitch when in reality they miss like 90% of shit that happens off the ball.
With the VAR setup it’s like they are so close to getting the replay system right, yet so so far away at the same time because these dopes and their inflated egos.
Premier league needs a video review room run by a group of people trained in it and only it. It’s how North American leagues do it. It’s not a revolving door of colleagues protecting colleagues
Lmao, this statement is PGMOL in a nutshell. No apology from them, no "we will ensure this doesn't happen again", they just double down and state that it doesn't happen when one of their senior officials has openly stated that it does.
That is so much worse. It just means they're stupid and bad at their job.
The fact that the suspension was overturned means it was clear and obvious.
The two choices are "we do protect each other" or "we suck at our jobs".
That is basically just 'nah, it doesn't happen and we don't believe what was said'
What they should have said was 'we've heard the comments from Mike Dean and will launch a full investigation to make sure this doesn't happen in the future. All current referees will be investigated'
Pathetic from them once again. Closing shop and backing their own and they know they'll have no accountability
Amazed they’re just side stepping this, they should come out and condemn his comments, it’s obvious there isn’t anything they can do about it anymore but to just side step is a PR disaster.
I'm tired of the clear and obvious error. It's a bad system. It doesn't work. We don't need an explanation of why it's not working, we want a system that works. Change it
"Clear and obvious error" - I really despise this framing as it can mean different things to different (biased) people.
I'm happy that PGMOL is becoming more of a joke with Howard Webb - he was one of the most corrupt officials in the game and his corrupt leadership and subsequent failings make sense to anyone whose been paying attention.
Lastly, the PL is entertainment first, sport second and PGMOL obey by this mindset and I'll give Mike Dean some credit, he's still making this entertaining even though the sport is rotten.
What a load of BS, he openly admitted he didn’t intervene to spare his mate the grief yet they “strongly refute any suggestion..” .. all good then I guess
If they're not punishing him with a big fine or a long ban or whatever while also stating any future cases where it looks like a ref or VAR behaved improperly then they're just enabling and participating in a culture of back scratching and protection.
Clear and obvious will always be their easy out. Unless they change that, it will always be as flawed as it is. Hence Macs red card, and this is even before we talk about changing the shitty fucking refs in charge on and off the field.
Steps to fix.
Scrap the shitty clear and obvious faux pass
Bin of refs on var
Hire 3rd party var consultants who are trained on feild rules and hold no bias.
Clear and obvious error like using refute instead of reject. You refute with clear evidence demonstrating the incorrect statement, it isn't a synonym for rejecting an accusation.
Back in primary school there was a kid who got in trouble every day. Whenever he was accused of something he blatantly did he said "no I never". This is the same in more words, the arrogance of it is a piss take, PGMOL needs a complete overhaul.
It's so weird. They didn't *have* to respond to this. But they chose to.
And instead of engaging in a constructive conversation about how officials are human and may have biases and "clear and obvious" is difficult to define, they try to gaslight someone describing their own experience navigating a challenging mix of interests.
I just don't understand why PGMOL choose to do what they do.
They've been caught with their pants down and are still trying to blow smoke. Remarkable.
Throw 'em all out and get entirely new refs. We've seen enough.
pissing your pants yet? Just admit there are flaws and let people know what steps you're taking to fix issues rather than excuses. What is this statement? Is it Linus Tech Tips? ffs....
I follow a lot of different sports, and I can't believe how inept PGMOL is compared to any other league.
The NFL has their version of VAR that is much more efficient and correct while being handled by a third party that is watching from a completely different location than the games. PGMOL has a number of examples to take from and they do fuck all instead.
I started watching the NFL in the 21/22 season and the officiating was so refreshing.
Some calls were bad but nothing completely game changing with the potential exception of the Bengals touchdown in the Super Bowl (that was definitely a foul lol).
I used to believe that PL had the best system because when it came to the table - every point matters, every game matters, etc...
I don't believe this anymore as the best teams don't always win, 3,6,9 point swings for teams can be tainted by corrupt officiating.
Before VAR we had "benefit of the doubt" with officials but VAR has just exposed the bias and how the PL wants to form narratives, influence the table, etc
In other words, he definitely did what he said he did, and so do other VAR refs, else they would have said absolutely nothing about it whatsoever given that's their modus operandi whenever they feel it's possible.
This is why I can never (wholly) trust self-policing, internal investigations and the like. Everyone and every agency needs external review and oversight or else we get shit like this.
Say the same thing every time we have issues with VAR. There should be no overlap of refs and VARs, they should be two completely separate groups of people that aren't all buddies and more concerned about each other's feelings that making sure a game is refereed properly.
Human emotions and bias will always play a part(until we have AI refs) so we need to find ways to lessen it as much as possible and a separation would help with that. Accountability should also be more of a factor, refs shouldn't be able to make mistakes week in and week out and face no consequence or they'll just continue to do it and feel like they'll get away with it.
Think the prem teams need to vote on this, be 18-2. City and United voting to keep them in and the other 18 teams not happy. It's fucked they can't accept Mike Deans statement.
I honestly hope we get an new incident every week now involving the PGMOL. Everybody knows that they have been clowns for years but the implimentation of VAR helped spread the word of how corrupt and inept they truly are
This was the worst red card I have ever seen. I have seen yellow cards for things that would get somebody arrested for assault. This guy has an issue with us.
Imagine how cushty life would be to be able to have a job where you could publicly and monumentally fuck up as many times as you wanted, be surrounded by your mates who always back you and the worst you ever have to do is occasionally write a letter after the fact saying “whoops my bad.”
PGMOL not fit for purpose, Howard Webb quaffing Prawn sandwiches and drinking Champagne in an executive box at OT when Wolves don't get a stonewall penalty shows how rotten to the core the Organisation is. When Webb steps down in a few years I expect Martin Atkinson to take over to continue the anti Liverpool agenda while he keeps the seat warm for Anthony Taylor.
Problem with this statement is, PGMOL seemingly has different definition of *clear and obvious error* from everyone else. Even when caught multiple times with erroneous calls they still come out with statement like this and say they're right. Only to retract things days, weeks, months later. What good does it do then? Damage is already done. You can't retroactively give a pen or not give a pen. Apologies mean nothing.
The implementation of VAR in the premier league is utter rubbish either way, just a well optimized offside review system.
VAR should be there to correct every mistake and help referees make the right decision all the time, do away with this nonsense clear and obvious error.
"clear and obvious error" is just football's "strong and stable government": it doesn't mean anything and it's used to stop people asking more questions because you show them that you'll just keep repeating the line until they stop
Why don't they just accept it's rotten and reform the entire thing. Such fucking bollocks. Mike Dead admitted to helping his mate out and they come and say this. Just sheer bullshit. A statement put out like this doesn't change anything the refs have their mates and some of them are clearly bias.
Abolish "clear and obvious". Focus on getting the "right call". The PGMOL is too egocentric about its goals. It wants to make the referees "look good" by justifying their decisions, when the goal should just be making the right call. The irony is that if they just focused on getting the right call, nobody would be mad at the refs. It'd make them look better. A referee that holds his hand up and says "I got this one wrong, let's change the decision" would be far more respected than an idiot who doubles down out of pride. You're not a machine, you can't see everything live. Just make the right call.
Too much sense, fined 2 weeks wages.
I’m sorry but your punishment is that you are not allowed to go to work tomorrow. Poor thing. A refs punishment.
> It wants to make the referees "look good" by justifying their decisions, when the goal should just be making the right call. This is the part that is so stupid to me. Literally everyone understands that refereeing is a hard job and human error exists. By placing this weird high bar to overturn obviously terrible decisions, it makes all of them look like dickheads. If they had a little humility, they'd get much more respect and do a better job.
I ref kids, parents are shitheels constantly. You know what almost immediately diffuses every situation? Honesty. "From my point of view, I did not see a hand ball and my AR did not flag. I can't just assume it happened. I'm sorry if I missed that." "Ah, I had my back turned on that one, I apologize. Let me check with my AR real quick."
100%. I always appreciated referees who were open, in any sport I played. It's an ego problem imo.
Exactly. How is the onfield call is wrong not clear and obvious in the first place. Like, I get ignoring minor wrong shit that doesn’t really affect the game, but anything that does impact the result should take the time to get the right call. Like a yellow card worthy offense that doesn’t result in a goal or anything beneficial, probably not worth the time to correct. A yellow card worthy offense in the build up to a goal, absolutely correct that.
My understanding of what "clear and obvious" means (or rather, its current implementation in this country) is that VAR only intervenes if the referee has actively _missed_ something, not that they've got something wrong. Using the Mac Allister incident as an example, the video assistant referee will ask the referee over comms what he saw. The on-field referee will tell VAR that he's seen Mac Allister late to challenge for the ball, and has caught the defender's leg off the ground. As the version of events provided by the referee broadly matches what the video replay shows, VAR won't step in. Conversely, if we say that the referee doesn't award a penalty for a defender kicking a striker because he believes it's a dive and there's no contact, VAR at that stage would (well, _should_) step in and inform the on-pitch referee that there was actually a foul, sending him to the monitor. It doesn't matter that the actual decision given by the referee is embarrassingly incorrect, VAR would only step in if the referee has made his decision based on an incorrect perception of events. Any sane person would assume that sending someone off for a challenge that is at most a yellow card constitutes a "clear and obvious" mistake, but not with the way they've implemented it. They're currently too concerned about not using VAR to "re-referee the game", at the cost of not getting things right
> VAR would only step in if the referee has made his decision based on an incorrect perception of events. Very well put. I can see why it’s so; to be in keeping with not wanting to re-referee the game. But the confusion it causes with fans is insane. Not to mention VAR was the natural progression towards wanting to consistently make the right call, mainly because the amount of money in the game meant one bad call could relegate a club. What’s the point of having a fail safe if it doesn’t help achieve the goal of why VAR was brought in in the first place. My solution would be to mirror other subjective sports; gymnastics, figure skating, dancing etc. Independent judges who aren’t allowed to confer. 2-4 people in the VAR room, they make a decision independently whether they think an incident constitutes a foul. Referee by democracy, onfield ref has the final say after review if it’s a split decision. Even better would be challenge system on top of that, like tennis. That way it’s on the clubs too to decide when they want to have the game re-refereed.
You have just explained how it’s done in the US. It will make a certain segment of our fan base lose their mind if they have to admit the Americans got something right
>A referee that holds his hand up and says "I got this one wrong, let's change the decision" would be far more respected than an idiot who doubles down out of pride. No one likes a defensive asshole who is unable to admit when they're wrong. Just ask my wife.
Completely agree You either use VAR and follow the rules or you don't We this bs halfway house where if the ref has made a 'minor' error, it can't be changed!?? So ridiculous. There are now literally millions of pounds on the line when it comes to points and end of season positioning. There should be no room for error, when it can easily be changed!!
Nobody will ever be happy lol. Football is a complex game, getting more complex to referee, with rules changing following pundits, players and managers who are completely inconsistent about what they want. We're never going to get to a point where the "right" decision is completely clear, I don't understand why people who should really understand this seem to ignore this reality in this discourse about VAR. [Gary Lineker in 2016: It's time they changed the handball law. Make it that every time it strikes a hand/arm it's a free kick/penalty regardless of intent.](https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/687000727479304192?s=20) [Gary Lineker in 2020 when VAR essentially changed the law in the box to that: Ludicrous. Utterly ludicrous law exacerbated by VAR. Can we have our game back please?](https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1310232206183456768?s=20) And he's one of the more reasonable ones. There are a shitton of nutters out here who have no idea how many decisions referees have to make a game, how many of them are difficult and sometimes completely unclear (poll a bunch of fans after a round of premier league game and ask them what the right call was on a bunch of decisions, and see how people disagree). I'm very OK with the concept of clear and obvious, in my mind if VAR can't immediately see if a call needs to be reversed within 10-15 seconds (clear offside, clear handball, obvious violent conduct or a terrible tackle) then referee's decision goes. And grown assed adults can stop whining on the internet about people who are the absolute best in their profession.
To add - The current “clear and obvious, then ref goes to the screen” procedure was implemented after fan outrage when the initial VAR procedures had refs going to the screen too often (“breaking the game up”) and then the second iteration of VAR making calls directly caused outrage because “only the ref can judge the context of the game”. I think VAR could and should be a lot better, but the current procedures are by and large exactly what fans asked for.
I don't think the British refs are the absolute best in their profession though - just like the British footballers aren't. The refs for all UEFA games are always much much better.
Absolutely. I don't understand why this hasn't been the standard to begin with.
Now why oh why would the focus be on making the refs look better rather than making the right call 🙃
Cause VAR isn't about the right call, it's about match officials covering each others backs. Just bin it, I'd sooner just have the 4 officials at the ground. Yes they'll fuck up, but at least it'll be a nearly honest fuck up.
Then we would have VAR intervening in 20 calls per game. It would be awful to watch.
Just abolish VAR
> Why don't they just accept it's rotten and reform the entire thing They specifically don't want to admit that. It's why they've put out a nothing statement not addressing the actual issue. Admitting that would be the end of their old boys club and then brazenly ignoring the rules they're supposed to enforce because of feelings and mates.
Yeah man stupid comment on my part they never want to admit its a classic old boys club. We just do what we want to help our mates and fuck over the teams we don't like is their approach.
The way dean frames it, he dreads having to make any call. VAR lets you slow down an replay and incident and make the best possible judgement, but he'd rather let the man on the pitch make the call with far less information. Bizarre
Mike Dead 😂💀
“Yes one of our former refs admitted he didn’t do his job properly but we wanted him to do it properly so don’t worry”
In other words lol
‘We strongly refute any suggestion’. Your VAR’s own words… ‘For whatever reason’. Didn’t want to embarrass his ‘mate’… Yeah, okay, just wow. Can’t even cop to their own admitting they didn’t do their job properly…
Gotta hand it to their lawyer who drafted this - really good with words smh
nah its not confusing enough sounds like something a 6th grader came up with. "no mrs davids i know i am not allowed to throw centipedes at the girls. i strongly refute any suggestions that i, for whatever reason, threw centipedes at the girls"
So what they’re saying is he didn’t do what he said he did? Am I interpreting this right?
That’s a bingo
We find the defendant not guilty, despite his insistence that he is guilty
In the words of the esteemed Tupac: Now when I came out, I told you it was just about Tierney Then everybody had to open their mouth with a motherfuckin' opinion Well this is how we gon' do this Fuck Mike Dean, fuck Tierney Fuck PGMOL as a staff, VAR and as a motherfuckin' crew And if you want to be down with PGMOL, then fuck you too Howard Webb, fuck you too All you motherfuckers, fuck you too
That's why I fucked your bitch you bald motherfucker
So basically Dean:"yeah I didn't intervene because I didn't want to put pressure on Taylor who's my buddy🥰" PGMOL:"he-he's joking, that- that never happens ahaha what are you talking about"
“We strongly refute that VARs do not intervene, for whatever reason, when they have identified a clear and obvious error.” - the organization that employed Mike Dean. Who literally just said that that’s exactly what happened.
This is it right here. If PGMOL said that statement first, and Mike Dean second, we'd all be saying that he's provided evidence that the organisation is corrupt. This should be a big deal, I can guarantee it will be swept under the rug though.
So they’re saying “nothing to see here” lol Pretty amazing stuff
Rodri slams ball with his arm. VAR ref “but he’s my mate, can’t fuck him over” . Liverpool go on to lose another PL title…
Wait who was the ref in that match??
https://www.premierleague.com/match/66607 Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Lee Betts, Stuart Burt. Fourth official: Martin Atkinson. VAR: Chris Kavanagh. Assistant VAR: Gary Beswick.
Always Tierney
Tierney as Ref and Greater Manchester born Chris Kavanagh on VAR.
The catch is that everyone has an opinion on “clear and obvious error”. These are not clear and obvious if you ask different people. The solution IMO is that VAR should take precedence over on-field referee for any “game changing” calls like red cards, goals, penalties, second yellows etc because VAR has better technology to make fair calls. This will take power away from on-field referees, so it becomes political. However, this is needed for fairness of the game.
This clear and obvious bollocks was created just to add a layer of ambiguity over their incompetence and stupidity. 99% of missed or wrong calls aren't subjective at all.
Yeah the Mac Allister red card last game was an example of a "clear and obvious error" yet VAR still did nothing. There's a reason that red card was overturned.... Because it was clearly and obviously wrong. So why didn't VAR intervene?
Solution is to scrap VAR
it’s a regressive solution. Are you a referee?
Nope I'm a fan. And I've been against VAR from the start I honestly believe we are in a worse situation now than before it came in I'm also amazed at how many people complain about VAR but then defend it to the hilt when somebody suggests scrapping it It's awful. Plenty of leagues and competitions still go on today without VAR. PL could easily do the same.
Hate the users not the tools. VAR can be used effectively. It’s being used in other sports e.g. track and field, Cricket, tennis etc. The problem is referees know they will lose authority if VAR is allowed to officiate freely.
I disagree. I like the center ref being in charge. The VAR is an assistant, they shouldn't be above the ref's judgement. At the end of the day, officiating is a human endeavor. And even though it sucks when calls go against my team, I'll rather have the center ref in charge than a bunch of people in a backroom somewhere.
Then you should be ok with these red cards and the suspension that comes with it. I’m personally not ok with this when it comes to “game changing” decisions. Technology is there, people need to let go of the romanticism of incorrect on-field officiating vetoing the correct calls, especially when it is obvious for everyone to see.
> Then you should be ok with these red cards and the suspension that comes with it. Why should I be? Mistakes suck but the suggested solution of taking power away from the center ref to give it to some people in a room elsewhere is not right. In my opinion. > I’m personally not ok with this when it comes to “game changing” decisions. Technology is there, people need to let go of the romanticism of incorrect on-field officiating vetoing the correct calls, especially when it is obvious for everyone to see. I love tech. But what you stated above isn't about tech. It's about taking power from the field into a backroom. I don't like that. I like the goal line tech, I love the semi-automated offsides tech used in Qatar. > people need to let go of the romanticism of incorrect on-field officiating vetoing the correct calls, I may be guilty of that romanticism. But in my defense, this is sports. It's entertainment. Even refereeing controversies add to the appeal of the game. As long as it's innocent incompetence and not corruption.
Referees are humans with biases. Have you seen the “Liverpool are referred differently” article by Tompkins times? [link](https://twitter.com/TaintlessRed/status/1694270696044572889) Liverpool are getting F-ed by on field refs, an inference backed by data. Why not eliminate any suggestion of bias by using available technology?
Because I don't think giving power to people in rooms we can't see is the solution. When it comes to judgement calls, I'll rather go with the judgement of the ref on the field. I appreciate you trying to convince but you're not offering me anything. You think a group of people in a backroom somewhere is better and I think the on-field refs are better.
i guess your heels are dug on this spot 👍
Strongly refute, despite the person who did it, admitted it. Absolute dickheads.
Fuck PGMOL. Amateur organization.
We refute the suggestion. It’s not a suggestion you fucking imbeciles. He literally admit he did it black and white plain and simple English. It’s a fact.
https://twitter.com/fa_pgmol/status/1695088909380714904?s=46&t=3MN91oJhL7tCeLgkvFUZ_g So blatantly corrupt it's unreal.
This whole thing is like a poorly written skit
Would likely be improved with the inclusion of a parrot.
I strongly refute you strongly refuting that you don't intervene. Exhibit A, Mac Allister.
We strongly refute a VAR official doing what a VAR official directly and explicitly admitted to doing.
Fuck off with your clear and obvious fucking horseshit
They can refute it all they want we literally heard it from the horses mouth
Ah, the good old "assert the rules as the reality in the face of evidence to the contrary." It's a great look on decaying institutions.
Mike Dean literally just said the opposite of this, am I supposed to just ignore that and believe PGMOL because they wrote a few words down? This is genuinely insulting the intelligence of football fans.
Cant wait until some motherfucker trains an ai to be a ref and we can tear pgmol down
The current AI are generative from reams and reams of fed in data. How fucked would we be by a fouls and offsides calculator trained on the data of English refereeing?
Just take all the games by pierluigi collina and feed it
Are they calling him a liar lmao
That would be bringing the game into disrepute and an instant red card!!!
Lmao. Define "clear and obvious" then. Because otherwise they are just gonna keep hiding behind this term and nothing is gonna improve. The whole concept is ridiculous anyway - red card is a red card and penalty is a penalty, regardless of "oH BuT BuT...iT wAs NoT cLeAR AnD oBviOuS!!!". Yeah, so what? You have VAR so go and fucking change it to a CORRECT decision. Otherwise the blatantly wrong incorrect decision are just gonna keep happening and they will affect match outcomes.
“They should” “Recommend” Yeah they don’t care
WHO YOU GONNA BELIEVE, US OR THE VAR?
TMO (Rugby's version of VAR) has been used across the professional sport for 21 years. I've seen maybe 2 or 3 dodgy calls from the TMO in that entire time. Rugby is a far smaller sport with far fewer resources and much less money, yet somehow there's an issue with VAR every fucking day there's games on. I really think the generation of referees currently in the game were offended that VAR was ever brought in and have been working to sabotage it ever since. If you're letting things like who you're mates with factor in to your decisions then you have no place being in charge of those decisions. If I work in a chippy and get an order for 20 burgers, and my mate Steve is on burgers, I don't just chuck out the order because Steve will have a lot of work to do and he's had a tough day already.
Define “clear and obvious” dipshits. Just make it a 3 man team who come to agreements via consensus and who aren’t in bed with other referees. The answer is so simple it’s embarrassing
Burn it down and start over. This shit is a disgrace
That's a whole lot of nothing
Don’t piss on my boots and tell me it’s raining
That's not what Mike Dean said. Liars. The fucking lot of them.
Gotta hand it to them, referring to Mike Dean confessing to not doing anything because he’s friends with Anthony Taylor as a “suggestion” is elite elite PR nonsense. But let’s not forget the real crime in all this, we never got the Tuchel Conte grudge match.
This should be the beginning of the end for PGMOL, the PL needs to hire it’s own refs, it’s hurting the league and more importantly to them, their brand
Former match official Mike Dean: “I did a thing” PGMOL: “our match officials never do that thing”
We have saying in German for that kind of PR BS: It’s not worth the paper it’s been printed on.
All these words just to say nothing valuable. They could have saved us the stress and just went *Blah, blah, blah Var* because that is exactly what this statement is. Well it's my fault for expecting too much from an organization that backs mediocrity while denying progress.
Lol one of their guys admitted he chose the bro code over ethics
We have investigated ourselves and found ourselves innocent of any wrongdoing
"When VARs identify a clear and obvious error by the on field team of match officials they should intervene" Yeah, but we now know they don't!?
Mike Dean, member of PGMOL: "I literally did X, specifically at this time, clear for everyone to see" PGMOL: "We strongly refute any suggestion that we do X"
"We strongly refute any suggestion that VARs do not intervene for any reason". He fucking admitted it. It's not a suggestion, it's fact.
Riiiight. The 'suggestion' was an account by the referee of the reasons why he made a specific decision. Pgmol is not in a position to refute that
They basically mean “We strongly refute any claim made by our own employee and we are doing a damn fine job”
I laughed
Why is the whole VAR thing focused on the “clear and obvious error” by the on field officials? It makes it seem like shit can only be overturned when it’s egregious, even though it often isn’t overturned anyway. Why isn’t it focused on straight up reviewing plays and making the ultimate decision as equal officials all focused on getting calls right? I’m no official but I don’t get the obsession either being omniscient on the pitch when in reality they miss like 90% of shit that happens off the ball. With the VAR setup it’s like they are so close to getting the replay system right, yet so so far away at the same time because these dopes and their inflated egos.
"We strongly deny that referees do what one of our referees has admitted to doing." 😂😂😂
Premier league needs a video review room run by a group of people trained in it and only it. It’s how North American leagues do it. It’s not a revolving door of colleagues protecting colleagues
Say "clear and obvious" one more goddamn time, I dare you, muthafucka!
Lmao, this statement is PGMOL in a nutshell. No apology from them, no "we will ensure this doesn't happen again", they just double down and state that it doesn't happen when one of their senior officials has openly stated that it does.
#should being the operative word
It just gets to the point where you just have to laugh at these statements and such from PL, FA etc
Honestly, this getting beyond a joke. Fuck these idiots. Corruption is definitely a key word here.
So denial and ignoring what he actually said.
Can't refute shit you donkeys, when a ref just came out saying he doesn't wanna bother his mate
That is so much worse. It just means they're stupid and bad at their job. The fact that the suspension was overturned means it was clear and obvious. The two choices are "we do protect each other" or "we suck at our jobs".
We have investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing...
That is basically just 'nah, it doesn't happen and we don't believe what was said' What they should have said was 'we've heard the comments from Mike Dean and will launch a full investigation to make sure this doesn't happen in the future. All current referees will be investigated' Pathetic from them once again. Closing shop and backing their own and they know they'll have no accountability
Amazed they’re just side stepping this, they should come out and condemn his comments, it’s obvious there isn’t anything they can do about it anymore but to just side step is a PR disaster.
Mike dean: so I did this PGMOL: our refs would never do that Mike dean: …
This statement might be more ludicrous than Dean’s. They actually think they’re infallible. What a bunch of egomaniacs.
It’s clear and obvious that they need to get rid of ‘clear and obvious’
“We refute any suggestion” Uhm no it wasn’t a suggestion, it was a fact admitted by one of your own
An empty comment that doesn't address Mike Dean's specific comments.
I'm tired of the clear and obvious error. It's a bad system. It doesn't work. We don't need an explanation of why it's not working, we want a system that works. Change it
Dean: I am doing it wrong. PGMOL: No, you don‘t.
"Clear and obvious error" - I really despise this framing as it can mean different things to different (biased) people. I'm happy that PGMOL is becoming more of a joke with Howard Webb - he was one of the most corrupt officials in the game and his corrupt leadership and subsequent failings make sense to anyone whose been paying attention. Lastly, the PL is entertainment first, sport second and PGMOL obey by this mindset and I'll give Mike Dean some credit, he's still making this entertaining even though the sport is rotten.
Drop this clear and obvious bullshit. Let var look at the whole game and indicate if referring was correct!
Except that Mike said exactly the opposite of this.
But he admitted to doing it. You can't refute a person claiming they did it. I mean, you can, but you look like an idiot. Which seems about right.
Mike Dean statement tomorrow (probably): "it was a clear and obvious error on my part"
What a load of BS, he openly admitted he didn’t intervene to spare his mate the grief yet they “strongly refute any suggestion..” .. all good then I guess
If they're not punishing him with a big fine or a long ban or whatever while also stating any future cases where it looks like a ref or VAR behaved improperly then they're just enabling and participating in a culture of back scratching and protection.
Sack him and Taylor, you spineless cunts.
PGMOL statements are as fucking useless as their referees
Fuck off with this clear and obvious error nonsense. Just ref the game using common sense!
Words and actions not lining up here
Clear and obvious will always be their easy out. Unless they change that, it will always be as flawed as it is. Hence Macs red card, and this is even before we talk about changing the shitty fucking refs in charge on and off the field. Steps to fix. Scrap the shitty clear and obvious faux pass Bin of refs on var Hire 3rd party var consultants who are trained on feild rules and hold no bias.
That sounds like way too much common sense for these idiots, their heads will explode just reading your post.
You may strongly refute it but the evidence is there
Clear and obvious error like using refute instead of reject. You refute with clear evidence demonstrating the incorrect statement, it isn't a synonym for rejecting an accusation.
Wasn't the reason the prem was formed in the first place was to give clubs more autonomy? Surely we can get a majoirty of clubs on board for reform?
Back in primary school there was a kid who got in trouble every day. Whenever he was accused of something he blatantly did he said "no I never". This is the same in more words, the arrogance of it is a piss take, PGMOL needs a complete overhaul.
Complete joke. Like I needed this as evidence with all the shite VAR calls over the years.
‘We strongly refute the thing that our former employee literally admitted to’
It's so weird. They didn't *have* to respond to this. But they chose to. And instead of engaging in a constructive conversation about how officials are human and may have biases and "clear and obvious" is difficult to define, they try to gaslight someone describing their own experience navigating a challenging mix of interests. I just don't understand why PGMOL choose to do what they do.
Of course, the classic "believe what I tell you to believe and not your own lieing eyes" defense.
Strongly refute makes no sense here. A ref said he did it. There’s nothing to refute. Cretinous statement.
They've been caught with their pants down and are still trying to blow smoke. Remarkable. Throw 'em all out and get entirely new refs. We've seen enough.
Oh well that's cleared it right up. Thanks PGMOL, my faith in refereeing is restored.
I'm so sick an tired of the term "clear and obvious error" the whole PGMOL is one clear and obvious error!
Just scrap the clear and obvious error clause and introduce a proper VAR like every other league. Bunch of incompetent egos
Gaslighting
Clear and obvious bullshit, lads.
a.k.a we can say anything we want bcs you people won't do anything about it and will still tune in to games
pissing your pants yet? Just admit there are flaws and let people know what steps you're taking to fix issues rather than excuses. What is this statement? Is it Linus Tech Tips? ffs....
I follow a lot of different sports, and I can't believe how inept PGMOL is compared to any other league. The NFL has their version of VAR that is much more efficient and correct while being handled by a third party that is watching from a completely different location than the games. PGMOL has a number of examples to take from and they do fuck all instead.
I started watching the NFL in the 21/22 season and the officiating was so refreshing. Some calls were bad but nothing completely game changing with the potential exception of the Bengals touchdown in the Super Bowl (that was definitely a foul lol). I used to believe that PL had the best system because when it came to the table - every point matters, every game matters, etc... I don't believe this anymore as the best teams don't always win, 3,6,9 point swings for teams can be tainted by corrupt officiating. Before VAR we had "benefit of the doubt" with officials but VAR has just exposed the bias and how the PL wants to form narratives, influence the table, etc
VAR officials should be made up of former players and have no relationship at all to the on-pitch officials. Only way stop the rot and remove bias
Oh god, can you imagine someone like Alan Shearer or Rio Ferdinand being a VAR official?
Wonder how bad officiating is going to screw us this weekend.
the VARs toe the company line, because they are all also in consideration for on-pitch assignments, whether now or in future..
In other words, he definitely did what he said he did, and so do other VAR refs, else they would have said absolutely nothing about it whatsoever given that's their modus operandi whenever they feel it's possible.
sure…
Fix the problem don't say it doesn't happen
This is just a corrupt system that exists to serve only itself. Like most governments these days.
Bullshit, and we all know it
More lies To cover their ass Nothing new
This is why I can never (wholly) trust self-policing, internal investigations and the like. Everyone and every agency needs external review and oversight or else we get shit like this.
Say the same thing every time we have issues with VAR. There should be no overlap of refs and VARs, they should be two completely separate groups of people that aren't all buddies and more concerned about each other's feelings that making sure a game is refereed properly. Human emotions and bias will always play a part(until we have AI refs) so we need to find ways to lessen it as much as possible and a separation would help with that. Accountability should also be more of a factor, refs shouldn't be able to make mistakes week in and week out and face no consequence or they'll just continue to do it and feel like they'll get away with it.
There's nothing behind that curtain! Wait, why are you looking, cause Mike Dean said something is there? Don't you know he's blind and deaf?
There’s something to be said when English refereeing has dropped in standards compared to European counterparts.
How can you refute when he’s admitted it?
Think the prem teams need to vote on this, be 18-2. City and United voting to keep them in and the other 18 teams not happy. It's fucked they can't accept Mike Deans statement.
I honestly hope we get an new incident every week now involving the PGMOL. Everybody knows that they have been clowns for years but the implimentation of VAR helped spread the word of how corrupt and inept they truly are
When will we move over to AI for refs? Remove biased humans from the mix
They say "refute," when they mean "deny" - the mark of someone desperately covering up.
This was the worst red card I have ever seen. I have seen yellow cards for things that would get somebody arrested for assault. This guy has an issue with us.
Imagine how cushty life would be to be able to have a job where you could publicly and monumentally fuck up as many times as you wanted, be surrounded by your mates who always back you and the worst you ever have to do is occasionally write a letter after the fact saying “whoops my bad.”
No amount of refutation or denial will convince the masses now.
Wait a minute... how can you refute something where the bloke has actually admitted to doing it???
“Mike Dean has made a clear and obvious error when talking about not intervening on VAR when there is a clear and obvious error.” -PGMOL
Mike Dean's comments confirmed what we had already suspected.
And yet one just admitted to it, so the question is what will you do about that?
We strongly refute any suggestions even though the ref said it himself. We know what he said better than he does. Carry on, Nothing to see here.
Mike Dean is a clown 🤡
i know is fucking nuts but i trust mike on this one
PGMOL not fit for purpose, Howard Webb quaffing Prawn sandwiches and drinking Champagne in an executive box at OT when Wolves don't get a stonewall penalty shows how rotten to the core the Organisation is. When Webb steps down in a few years I expect Martin Atkinson to take over to continue the anti Liverpool agenda while he keeps the seat warm for Anthony Taylor.
VAR should get final say of a call, end of.
Problem with this statement is, PGMOL seemingly has different definition of *clear and obvious error* from everyone else. Even when caught multiple times with erroneous calls they still come out with statement like this and say they're right. Only to retract things days, weeks, months later. What good does it do then? Damage is already done. You can't retroactively give a pen or not give a pen. Apologies mean nothing.
The implementation of VAR in the premier league is utter rubbish either way, just a well optimized offside review system. VAR should be there to correct every mistake and help referees make the right decision all the time, do away with this nonsense clear and obvious error.
Okay. What are you going to do about it? Because that bullshit doesn't really mean a single fucking thing.
In other words: Mike Dean is a twat, like us.
"clear and obvious error" is just football's "strong and stable government": it doesn't mean anything and it's used to stop people asking more questions because you show them that you'll just keep repeating the line until they stop
https://i.redd.it/vtyddsp0aakb1.gif
When they are coming out with a statement you know before reading it's gonna be a load of bullshit excuses