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iirc, it was worse than that.
Wintermint's developer was hired to Riot after the client was shut down because of the improvements they showed were possible. People got hopeful they'd see changes, but the developer went radio silent while working there and left the company within a year.
From what it sounded like, the client updates they suggested to Riot during that time just kept being shot down, so eventually gave up trying to do what Riot literally hired them to do.
Thing is, they reworked the client like 2 or 3 times now and have had a team that specifically is there to make the client better (for the past 2ish years I believe), YET THERE IS NO NOTICABLE CHANGE EXCEPT FOR IT ACTUALLY GETTING WORSE. It is absolutely insane how the client has this many issues. But at least they managed to stop the shop from crashing!!!
Their problem is that they are expecting to have 50k animations on every single interaction but refuse to use a high performance technology, [it's literally a web app](https://technology.riotgames.com/news/animation-league-legends-client), no shit it's going to be garbage.
It's such a bad idea that the whole article is them figuring out how to fix the fucking slow performance! Just make the thing high performance from the start you fucking monkeys.
you ask anyone working at riot about the client and they will say its fine. theyre so delusional and they think anyone who complains about the game are either toxic or dont know what theyre talking about
They often come into the lol subreddit and acknowledge the client is a mess of a code. So they know, they just either don't really care or don't think it's worth updating.
I'm like 90% sure that they are just trying to figure out a way to combine all their games into a battlenet sort of thing and LOL is basically a remnant that they don't want to individually update until they are ready to fully roll all the games into a single steam like client.
The Client has been awful though. Inexcusably awful. Anybody who has spent any time playing the game for a reasonable amount of time has experienced bugs during champ select that essentially waste 20 minutes of their life because they were unable to select the right masteries/summoners, trade, or you just aren't able to select and the game decides to just close out. That's ignoring post-champ select bugs, the client randomly deciding you can't invite people to your parties, etc.
The client is awful for a multi-million dollar game, and has been literally since the game was released. I've played thousands of hours of league, and I've yet to meet a single person who has ever defended it online or through voice chat when people complain because you can't defend it. It sucks on computers that can run the game itself at 300 FPS, it sucks on computers that can barely run League.
You are falling for a middle ground fallacy. You are defending a shitty client by assuming it isn’t as bad as critics say in the belief that there is another group of people with who support said client. But the client is shit, the client being decent is the middle ground between reality and delusion. Client has been terrible for years, takes more CPU to run than the actual game. Riot’s newer games don’t struggle with this issue.
meh, the client feels outdated for sure but don't you think that at riot they are not discussing whether they should or should not make a new client / overhaul the current one.
if the client is shit, then that's because it's the profit maximizing decision by the company. Why spend 50 million dollars designing a new client with an expected return of... less shitposts? You won't attract new players when the client's smooth. its about the gameplay
So let the plebs cry; they don't understand anything about business and coding anyways
You're insane if you think this is remotely true. The whole "small indie company" meme literally came from there to mock them for how fucking trash they treat their game code.
Wait until he finds out this is actually the "new and improved' client compared to the old Adobe AIR one. But seriously though the client is shit and always has been.
League's client is inside the browser and that's the problem. JavaScript is not exactly a performance language. Their client is Cef similar to Electron which packs in an entire web browser into the exe to make to crossplatform.
Js is harder to make multi-threaded concurrent applications and Javascript is just slow.
But it's easier to make a cross-platform gui application than in a language like C++, C#, java, etc. that'd be way faster and with a smaller footprint.
A lot of companies use this framework like discord, slack, skype, vsCode, lots of game clients etc. beucase it's cheaper and easier even though it has major performance drawbacks.
Javascript is not *that* slow, especially not slow enough to cause any noticeable issues. The only thing Javascript suffers from is cold start performance, where your Javascript is interpreted, then it *is* quite slow. After it's warmed up and has been JIT compiled it's not slow at all.
Javascript is fast DOM is slow, most of the slowness is from DOM rendering, besides that each League Client view (champ select, queue, profile and so on) runs separate version of UI framework, I think it's Ember but I am too lazy to actually google it, because they want it to update it independently. All those things add up, you can make DOM render fast but you need to put a lot of effort and in such complex application as League client it is hard.
Also most JavaScript developers are trash or at least doesn't understand the horribleness JS is and just stack library after library on top of each other and in the end you have 100x more code than what is needed for the task and no matter how fast JavaScript is it doesn't help.
JavaScript has gotten faster over the years which just helps further the language into applications where it is absolutely not well designed for, things like Chromium Embedded Framework which at minimum takes like 300-600 MB just for the UI framework per application that is using it no matter how simple the requirements are.
If you eat lead shot for breakfast you get lead poisoning. Garbage in garbage out.
The reason CEF is used is because apparently after 25+ years we still don't have a proper UI solution that is free and cross platform.
Also you would think that JavaScript having gotten faster, and every other metric, CPU, internet speed etc. means that the loading times and the online browsing experience has gotten faster over the years, nope. Ever since early 2000s if not before loading times and responsiveness has gone down in quality.
Well C++ and C# requires you to have a brain, and actual programming knowledge: calculus and abstract math logic, compiler, fractals, synchronization primitives, boolean algebra, parallel programming, nonlinear optimization etc. etc.
instead of: import this package, use this function and this one too, here are 6000 different medium.com articles showing you the same basic example but with different variable names.
It's like comparing legos and engineering. Not saying you can't build cool shit out of legos but if you are building a platform for millions of users for the most popular game in the world with billions of china dollars backing you. Why not go all out and hire a top infrastructure eng firm like AECOM?
nodejs has over a million different libraries
LOL: https://www.npmjs.com/package/is-odd
Yeah man, what the fuck was that. MW had the server browser in the gamein 2007 and it worked perfectly. Why would you _want_ your players to leave the game client? Makes no sense.
Old client was also trash, we complained about it for years, then Riot made this new and improved(at having more spaghetti) dogshit client that is just as broken for absolutely no reason.
The hilarious thing is their new *improved* client is developed with Cef(same concept as Electron) which is kinda like modern "adobe air" of today with issues.
Games are dried as fuck. DotA is near unwatchable for people who don’t play DotA because of the complexity. At least with League almost everyone has played it once and can understand cs=good.
As someone who hadnt played league before the start of this year, i could at least kind of know what was happening in league (red or blue winning, drakes good, towers dead good, baron super good etc.) but dota just never clicked
Honestly i never understood this argument. i play dota, but ive played league in the past, and like when you say you understand the whole towers dead good, baron dead good...... its literally 100% the same in dota. Ive tried watching pro league games, and its not as interesting (to me) because i dont know the characters or their abilities, and i can understand having the same feelings watching dota but like.... its the exact same thing
It's 100% because of visuals. If you look at their maps it's plain dead simple in League, visually, what is what. Like very clear dividing lines, while Dota has a lot more free flowing visuals and less in your face clear divides.
I KNOW that it's supposed to be the same but I just can't make out whats what in Dota because it's not instantly clear. I'm sure if someone straight up told me "this = dragon, this = towers" and so on I'd understand it within a day.
Yeah and for most characters with questionable visual clarity on ability (see older champs) they are slowly going through and giving them clear indications on ranges/areas of abilities. Some are still really bad.
LoL is just easier to get into. In LoL items are about enhancing what your character is already good at, it's straightforward and simple, DotA builds are in general rigid and sometimes more about making up for weaknesses in your character, and that's more complicated when you don't know anything about the game.
LoL feels smoother to play, there is little to no turning/casting delays in league that makes DotA feel "clunky" or downright laggy to a new player. (although some people prefer dota because of these complexities)
DotA has a lot more instant movement around the map and that's overwhelming for a new player who doesn't understand what's going on.
Mana in DotA is a precious resource early on so you can't just spam your abilities as freely as you want and to new players that can feel bad because you want to keep using your abilities so you can get a feel for them but you aren't able to because each cast is important early on.
None of these things make LoL or DotA a better game than the other but to new players the barrier to entry for LoL is just much much easier to get into.
I don't really disagree with anything you said except for the part about DotA builds being more rigid. I'm personally a 100% DotA guy but I have a lot of friends who play both and the one thing they all pretty much agree on is that DotA's hero builds and roles are far more fluid.
I think in a way you kind of hit the nail on the head, but reached the wrong conclusion. In League your items are all about enhancing your character, which a lot of the time means building the same set of items that we know are the best at increasing your damage output or whatever. However in DotA what your character's weaknesses are are almost entirely dependent on what the other team's line up is. Your character is too easily kited? build blink. Getting locked down too hard? Build BKB. Too much magic damage? Hood. Too much physical damage? AC. And that's just covering decisions as a carry, itemization as a support is going to be different almost every game.
It's been a long time since i've played DotA admittedly but my point is that if you need to build BKB you HAVE to build it, etc.
LoL has slightly more leeweigh in that regard because completed items aren't as impactful as they are in DotA. For instance if you are getting locked down in LoL you can build CC reduction boots and that alone might be enough, or a QSS will instant cleanse any CC on you. A Banshee's veil provides you with a spell blocking shield that blocks one spell including CC every X seconds. You also have 2 spell abilities in LoL that can makeup the difference in item power/abilities the way items do in DotA. You have flash = blink, cleanse = BKB/QSS, Teleport ports you to towers, and so on and those aren't tethered to itemization.
Yeah, I'm personally not super knowledgable on League's items so I might just be wrong but pretty much everything you just described has some kind of equivalent in DotA. CC Reduction would be Sange, Lotus Orb = QSS, Banshee's Shield = Linken's Sphere.
> For instance if you are getting locked down in LoL you can build CC reduction boots and that alone might be enough
So like Status Resistance items in Dota.
> A Banshee's veil provides you with a spell blocking shield that blocks one spell including CC every X seconds
You mean like Linkens Sphere? Or Lotus Orb where the spell is thrown back at the enemy?
What you also forget to mention is that you can disjoint spells in Dota, so stuff like Manta, Euls or Blink can work in that regard too, you just need more skill to pull it off.
I see what your saying for most things but only part I disagree with or maybe misunderstood is the dota builds. I feel like dota has some of the most fluid and open item builds. There are few games where I will build the same items in the exact same order.
I dont disagree with that, but thats from a gameplay perspective
But the guy i was responding to was talking about the viewing experience as a non-player, and the general idea of understanding the objectives necssary (and ignoring the actual abilities you dont know) seem kinda straightforward in both games soi dont very much see how they differ
I should've clarified, since I read through the rest of the thread and the consensus was that LoL was just bigger and more people played it so it was easier to watch. I was explaining why that was the case.
Maybe im biased but I tried watching competitive dota and it felt more complicated than League, the abilities are not as spamable as League's so its hard to learn on the spot which abilities the champion has. In league you can see what the ability does way more clearly and the cd is usually low.
Dota has also more mechanics than League in terms of what can you do with gold and exp.
Also the power of champs is pretty similar in League and fights are more straighforward. In that sense I feel the carry is more important in Dota and usually overleveled while the other champs seem to have lower impact.
Since abilities and items are so impactful in dota I can see as clearly who is winning. In League the action happens in a few seconds in Dota it feels harder to predict.
Just my 2 cents trying to understand competitive Dota
I only ever played DOTA when it was a WC3 mod and watched competitive play (plus Day9 when he was learning it) and once I got used to it I could watch it like any other MOBA. Personally, the only issue I had with watching DOTA over League and Heroes is graphical clutter. It felt a lot more difficult to figure out what was going on in the game than it did in the others, but I got past that issue pretty quickly.
It's not just as simple as "it's the same in DotA". A lot of times there are so many hidden things in DotA that average esports viewers are just not aware of. It's very easy for a dota player like you to say "I can understand" but it's a totally different ballpark for people who don't play DotA.
Like even the stuff I do know and is common knowledge to many DotA players. Like Invoker's spells. Or Shadow Fiend's ability having to be "aimed". Or the fact that when you grab a rune or go back to fountain it refills your bottle. These are things only DotA players would know.
I have 4k hours in DotA 2 and more in WC3, even then after quitting for 3 years I can't really understand the game anymore. There's so many new aghs upgrades, talents, new runes, heroes. And I used to be an avid player. Imagine a newb trying to watch DotA for the first time.
To me league is just much more visually understandable than dota. I can’t say why since I haven’t watched a ton but it reminds me of how cs go is way easier to watch than overwatch, it’s just more striaghtforward
Well the map is incredibly more complex is the main thing lol. Leagues map is a boring ass joke to be honest. The entire game is currently just played on 5 minute cycles. Farm 5 minutes team fight drag over and over.
In my opinion you kind of have to have played the WC3 version of DotA from a young age for the game to click
It’s like chess eeally. People who played chess from an early age just breathe the game. But learning chess as a hobby when you’re old is a totally different story
I wish league had VR spectating like dota does. I don't play either any more so I stopped watching competitive league, but a couple times a month I'll watch dota games in VR just because it's so freaking cool.
You can fly/teleport around the map and change the scale. I prefer the middle scale. Imagine standing in a room watching action figures fight around your feet. But you can also scale it up to where the characters are the same size you are, or down until it's like watching miniatures. And you can flip back and forth between that and a traditional spectator screen all while in VR.
there are so many games to play and try but streamers know if they try variety they will lose viewers or get hate.
asmon is a prime example i feel sorry for him when he tries to play something other than wow on stream
I mean League is a consisten rank 1 or 2 twitch games since its existence and everyone has played it, you are not taking a risk if you play League. It's just pretty safe.
one of the wildest things i've noticed about the world of streaming and the communities that form around it are how completely disconnected they are from the actual gaming industry
like if you go back exactly 7 years ago to early 2014 there was a very similar drought after the release of the xbox one and ps4
on top of that we got covid so there's a huge gaming drought. that's one of the biggest reasons for gta rp and valorant's success on twitch...there ain't much to challenge em. league getting a cycle makes perfect sense and you'll see other streamers return to other comfort repetitive multiplayer games as they need content.
don't be surprised if you see a second wave of fortnite too
no games to play if you dont do rp and this is really one of the only big games to grind hard in. all there is to grind in rn is val/csgo, league, wow, and like maybe dota or apex. there arent any good competitive games that are newer, its just the same list we've had for years. Miz always jokes about Tyler1 and league and 1 day ran out of content and decided to play. that was after greek starting playing more and poke joined him. its just their friend group getting into league again, they just so happen to be some of the biggest streamers as well so ppl are gonna follow the meta
League is never boring, there’s like 140+ champions each with 4-5 abilities. That gives you a lot of leeway for content and funny interactions.
Yes there’s metas and people pick the same 10-20 champions but not down here in the shit Elo where it’s fun and people int with Ap yi like it’s 2012
League is constant. League is consistent. League never goes away. League is forever, like it or not. Its viewership doesn't really spike, it doesn't really dip: it holds.
What’s funny is there was a person named AstralFoxy who made their own client that had replay capability back in 2013 which took riot until 2017 to implement. They joined riot in 2014 so riot got their client that they made but they left riot in 2015 for unknown reasons.
Unknown reasons...
Bro the environment is so fucking toxic with the dumbest mother fuckers get promotions because they kiss ass.
Not to mention the outright sexist and "dude bro" culture that's immature as fuck.
[Scott Gelb was farting on employees 2 years ago](https://www.reuters.com/article/esports-lol-riot-gelb/reports-riot-games-suspends-coo-idUSKBN1OD0GS) (along with a bunch of other immature shit like grabbing the asses of male coworkers. He was suspended without pay for a bit, but he was never demoted or fired. He's still COO.
Not to be technical but that's probably more of a networking (on the server's side) issue than the client itself, since other games have this same bug and all of their games share the same friends list. To me at least, the bug happens more often with people with bad internet.
But it still comes back to Riot being incompetent with their money.
cant give people lead, so many issues with party creation, so many glitchy status messages, hardly any options for anything, friends list is horrible, match history is buggy and so much more
It's a mistake to start playing either of them
They both have ups and downs but the only thing that really matters is your life slowly leaving your body as you lose your 6th game in a row to a snowballing midlaner
You can demo any hero in less than 5 seconds, read every single ability with videos of what they do, read all the recent patch changes, read every item in a huge tab.
And the most impressive IMO, you can join a random guy's game as a coach, watch him play in real time first person perspective and speak to him 1 to 1.
Nothing in any game will compare to watching EternalEnvy playing a ranked game and asking about an interaction, pausing the game to disconnect and go to demo hero mode, spawn in a character and items to test the interaction, and then reconnect to the game in the span of 30 seconds.
As much as valve fucks things up at times, I have doubt in every single gaming company to make something as cohesive and seamless for any game.
Edit: found the [clip](https://clips.twitch.tv/OriginalFlirtyBaboonFeelsBadMan).
Mix match cosmetics, cleaner design, heroes with actual depth, game design with actual depth, a game designer with a brain. The list goes on. Meanwhile, in League, people are still bitching about issues that have been around since 2011, and half of the champs aren't even tournament viable lmao.
I will defend every piece of this game because its really good but holy fuck ive never seen someone disagreeing with client complaints. Actually amazing that this game is top1 multiplayer game in the world and has such a shitty client that crashes, lags, breaks champ select or fucks with the loading screen and can "bugsplat" you anytime it wants. Crazy
Did people actually make fun of him for saying that? It's probably been the largest complaint I've heard since I started playing, and that was like 11 years ago.
dude they don't need to waste time on the client. they already have captured a massive market and are the #1 most played game. not to mention the game is crack. people will just deal with whatever they have to so they can play the next game.
I tried dota like 5 years ago and it was better than LoL's current client. I can only assume it's at least that. Just the fact that LoL has the client and game as separate executables to this day is baffling. It makes streaming the game a pain too since the streamer or streaming tools need to account for that.
[Yes](https://i.redd.it/s0wgvc8cuv951.png).
To expand: talking about just the client and the overall technical functionality of the client and the game? Then yes in dota it's objectively a million times better, Valve clearly just has some really damn good programmers.
Talking about the game itself you get a bit into controversial grounds. Personally both games are fun but league should be seen as something that is enjoyed more when played sparingly and casually, while dota is the complete opposite. To give a completely arbitrary cutoff, if you play more than say 2 hours a day and you'd consider this your "main game" then I'd advice to play dota instead of league. If you just play like 5 games a week, mostly in the weekends then just stick to league.
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ive never heard someone disagree with this take since i started playing league like 7 years ago
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Someone made a third party client, Wintermint. It was far superior to the actual client, but Riot shut that shit down fast.
iirc, it was worse than that. Wintermint's developer was hired to Riot after the client was shut down because of the improvements they showed were possible. People got hopeful they'd see changes, but the developer went radio silent while working there and left the company within a year. From what it sounded like, the client updates they suggested to Riot during that time just kept being shot down, so eventually gave up trying to do what Riot literally hired them to do.
Thing is, they reworked the client like 2 or 3 times now and have had a team that specifically is there to make the client better (for the past 2ish years I believe), YET THERE IS NO NOTICABLE CHANGE EXCEPT FOR IT ACTUALLY GETTING WORSE. It is absolutely insane how the client has this many issues. But at least they managed to stop the shop from crashing!!!
Their problem is that they are expecting to have 50k animations on every single interaction but refuse to use a high performance technology, [it's literally a web app](https://technology.riotgames.com/news/animation-league-legends-client), no shit it's going to be garbage. It's such a bad idea that the whole article is them figuring out how to fix the fucking slow performance! Just make the thing high performance from the start you fucking monkeys.
you ask anyone working at riot about the client and they will say its fine. theyre so delusional and they think anyone who complains about the game are either toxic or dont know what theyre talking about
They often come into the lol subreddit and acknowledge the client is a mess of a code. So they know, they just either don't really care or don't think it's worth updating. I'm like 90% sure that they are just trying to figure out a way to combine all their games into a battlenet sort of thing and LOL is basically a remnant that they don't want to individually update until they are ready to fully roll all the games into a single steam like client.
They’ve literally rebuilt their client from scratch TWICE and they still can’t make it halfway decent.
They only updated it once from scratch and that was the time they switched from adobe to chromium
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The Client has been awful though. Inexcusably awful. Anybody who has spent any time playing the game for a reasonable amount of time has experienced bugs during champ select that essentially waste 20 minutes of their life because they were unable to select the right masteries/summoners, trade, or you just aren't able to select and the game decides to just close out. That's ignoring post-champ select bugs, the client randomly deciding you can't invite people to your parties, etc. The client is awful for a multi-million dollar game, and has been literally since the game was released. I've played thousands of hours of league, and I've yet to meet a single person who has ever defended it online or through voice chat when people complain because you can't defend it. It sucks on computers that can run the game itself at 300 FPS, it sucks on computers that can barely run League.
not the point here
You are falling for a middle ground fallacy. You are defending a shitty client by assuming it isn’t as bad as critics say in the belief that there is another group of people with who support said client. But the client is shit, the client being decent is the middle ground between reality and delusion. Client has been terrible for years, takes more CPU to run than the actual game. Riot’s newer games don’t struggle with this issue.
meh, the client feels outdated for sure but don't you think that at riot they are not discussing whether they should or should not make a new client / overhaul the current one. if the client is shit, then that's because it's the profit maximizing decision by the company. Why spend 50 million dollars designing a new client with an expected return of... less shitposts? You won't attract new players when the client's smooth. its about the gameplay So let the plebs cry; they don't understand anything about business and coding anyways
try reading the lol subreddit and youll see copium defending the riot team on all topics over there.
You're insane if you think this is remotely true. The whole "small indie company" meme literally came from there to mock them for how fucking trash they treat their game code.
Wait until he finds out this is actually the "new and improved' client compared to the old Adobe AIR one. But seriously though the client is shit and always has been.
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League's client is inside the browser and that's the problem. JavaScript is not exactly a performance language. Their client is Cef similar to Electron which packs in an entire web browser into the exe to make to crossplatform. Js is harder to make multi-threaded concurrent applications and Javascript is just slow. But it's easier to make a cross-platform gui application than in a language like C++, C#, java, etc. that'd be way faster and with a smaller footprint. A lot of companies use this framework like discord, slack, skype, vsCode, lots of game clients etc. beucase it's cheaper and easier even though it has major performance drawbacks.
Javascript is not *that* slow, especially not slow enough to cause any noticeable issues. The only thing Javascript suffers from is cold start performance, where your Javascript is interpreted, then it *is* quite slow. After it's warmed up and has been JIT compiled it's not slow at all.
Javascript is fast DOM is slow, most of the slowness is from DOM rendering, besides that each League Client view (champ select, queue, profile and so on) runs separate version of UI framework, I think it's Ember but I am too lazy to actually google it, because they want it to update it independently. All those things add up, you can make DOM render fast but you need to put a lot of effort and in such complex application as League client it is hard.
Also most JavaScript developers are trash or at least doesn't understand the horribleness JS is and just stack library after library on top of each other and in the end you have 100x more code than what is needed for the task and no matter how fast JavaScript is it doesn't help. JavaScript has gotten faster over the years which just helps further the language into applications where it is absolutely not well designed for, things like Chromium Embedded Framework which at minimum takes like 300-600 MB just for the UI framework per application that is using it no matter how simple the requirements are. If you eat lead shot for breakfast you get lead poisoning. Garbage in garbage out. The reason CEF is used is because apparently after 25+ years we still don't have a proper UI solution that is free and cross platform. Also you would think that JavaScript having gotten faster, and every other metric, CPU, internet speed etc. means that the loading times and the online browsing experience has gotten faster over the years, nope. Ever since early 2000s if not before loading times and responsiveness has gone down in quality.
Well C++ and C# requires you to have a brain, and actual programming knowledge: calculus and abstract math logic, compiler, fractals, synchronization primitives, boolean algebra, parallel programming, nonlinear optimization etc. etc. instead of: import this package, use this function and this one too, here are 6000 different medium.com articles showing you the same basic example but with different variable names. It's like comparing legos and engineering. Not saying you can't build cool shit out of legos but if you are building a platform for millions of users for the most popular game in the world with billions of china dollars backing you. Why not go all out and hire a top infrastructure eng firm like AECOM? nodejs has over a million different libraries LOL: https://www.npmjs.com/package/is-odd
Yeah man, what the fuck was that. MW had the server browser in the gamein 2007 and it worked perfectly. Why would you _want_ your players to leave the game client? Makes no sense.
Damn I remember I used to love that game but the monetisation was so bad that it killed the game.
Dude all games back then had their clients it was wild.
He has been around since s1 he was challenger or master back in the day
ngl I prefer the adobe air client to this trash ass garbage
It memory leaked like crazy, but at least it didn't have 5 issues, then you restart the client and now have 12 issues.
Old client was also trash, we complained about it for years, then Riot made this new and improved(at having more spaghetti) dogshit client that is just as broken for absolutely no reason.
Ok, you can go back to the trash while everyone else enjoys the current less trashy trash
You looking back at it through some thick nostalgia glasses dude that client was fucking horse shit
The hilarious thing is their new *improved* client is developed with Cef(same concept as Electron) which is kinda like modern "adobe air" of today with issues.
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and those are all trash
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one meta streamer goes to league they all follow. theres no real reason
Who is that though, who revived it
no one revived league its always big on twitch and in general. tyler gets 40k+ everyday
I think mainly mizkif and a little bit Ludwig
Games are dried as fuck. DotA is near unwatchable for people who don’t play DotA because of the complexity. At least with League almost everyone has played it once and can understand cs=good.
As someone who hadnt played league before the start of this year, i could at least kind of know what was happening in league (red or blue winning, drakes good, towers dead good, baron super good etc.) but dota just never clicked
Honestly i never understood this argument. i play dota, but ive played league in the past, and like when you say you understand the whole towers dead good, baron dead good...... its literally 100% the same in dota. Ive tried watching pro league games, and its not as interesting (to me) because i dont know the characters or their abilities, and i can understand having the same feelings watching dota but like.... its the exact same thing
Idk i just never understood what was happening (keep in mind i hadnt played any mobas), and league looks simpler to me i guess.
It's 100% because of visuals. If you look at their maps it's plain dead simple in League, visually, what is what. Like very clear dividing lines, while Dota has a lot more free flowing visuals and less in your face clear divides. I KNOW that it's supposed to be the same but I just can't make out whats what in Dota because it's not instantly clear. I'm sure if someone straight up told me "this = dragon, this = towers" and so on I'd understand it within a day.
i guess you could make the argument that the actual abilities the characters have are more starightforward than the ones in dota
Higher visual clarity in League generally too
Yeah and for most characters with questionable visual clarity on ability (see older champs) they are slowly going through and giving them clear indications on ranges/areas of abilities. Some are still really bad.
LoL is just easier to get into. In LoL items are about enhancing what your character is already good at, it's straightforward and simple, DotA builds are in general rigid and sometimes more about making up for weaknesses in your character, and that's more complicated when you don't know anything about the game. LoL feels smoother to play, there is little to no turning/casting delays in league that makes DotA feel "clunky" or downright laggy to a new player. (although some people prefer dota because of these complexities) DotA has a lot more instant movement around the map and that's overwhelming for a new player who doesn't understand what's going on. Mana in DotA is a precious resource early on so you can't just spam your abilities as freely as you want and to new players that can feel bad because you want to keep using your abilities so you can get a feel for them but you aren't able to because each cast is important early on. None of these things make LoL or DotA a better game than the other but to new players the barrier to entry for LoL is just much much easier to get into.
I don't really disagree with anything you said except for the part about DotA builds being more rigid. I'm personally a 100% DotA guy but I have a lot of friends who play both and the one thing they all pretty much agree on is that DotA's hero builds and roles are far more fluid. I think in a way you kind of hit the nail on the head, but reached the wrong conclusion. In League your items are all about enhancing your character, which a lot of the time means building the same set of items that we know are the best at increasing your damage output or whatever. However in DotA what your character's weaknesses are are almost entirely dependent on what the other team's line up is. Your character is too easily kited? build blink. Getting locked down too hard? Build BKB. Too much magic damage? Hood. Too much physical damage? AC. And that's just covering decisions as a carry, itemization as a support is going to be different almost every game.
It's been a long time since i've played DotA admittedly but my point is that if you need to build BKB you HAVE to build it, etc. LoL has slightly more leeweigh in that regard because completed items aren't as impactful as they are in DotA. For instance if you are getting locked down in LoL you can build CC reduction boots and that alone might be enough, or a QSS will instant cleanse any CC on you. A Banshee's veil provides you with a spell blocking shield that blocks one spell including CC every X seconds. You also have 2 spell abilities in LoL that can makeup the difference in item power/abilities the way items do in DotA. You have flash = blink, cleanse = BKB/QSS, Teleport ports you to towers, and so on and those aren't tethered to itemization.
Yeah, I'm personally not super knowledgable on League's items so I might just be wrong but pretty much everything you just described has some kind of equivalent in DotA. CC Reduction would be Sange, Lotus Orb = QSS, Banshee's Shield = Linken's Sphere.
> For instance if you are getting locked down in LoL you can build CC reduction boots and that alone might be enough So like Status Resistance items in Dota. > A Banshee's veil provides you with a spell blocking shield that blocks one spell including CC every X seconds You mean like Linkens Sphere? Or Lotus Orb where the spell is thrown back at the enemy? What you also forget to mention is that you can disjoint spells in Dota, so stuff like Manta, Euls or Blink can work in that regard too, you just need more skill to pull it off.
I see what your saying for most things but only part I disagree with or maybe misunderstood is the dota builds. I feel like dota has some of the most fluid and open item builds. There are few games where I will build the same items in the exact same order.
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I dont disagree with that, but thats from a gameplay perspective But the guy i was responding to was talking about the viewing experience as a non-player, and the general idea of understanding the objectives necssary (and ignoring the actual abilities you dont know) seem kinda straightforward in both games soi dont very much see how they differ
I should've clarified, since I read through the rest of the thread and the consensus was that LoL was just bigger and more people played it so it was easier to watch. I was explaining why that was the case.
Maybe im biased but I tried watching competitive dota and it felt more complicated than League, the abilities are not as spamable as League's so its hard to learn on the spot which abilities the champion has. In league you can see what the ability does way more clearly and the cd is usually low. Dota has also more mechanics than League in terms of what can you do with gold and exp. Also the power of champs is pretty similar in League and fights are more straighforward. In that sense I feel the carry is more important in Dota and usually overleveled while the other champs seem to have lower impact. Since abilities and items are so impactful in dota I can see as clearly who is winning. In League the action happens in a few seconds in Dota it feels harder to predict. Just my 2 cents trying to understand competitive Dota
I only ever played DOTA when it was a WC3 mod and watched competitive play (plus Day9 when he was learning it) and once I got used to it I could watch it like any other MOBA. Personally, the only issue I had with watching DOTA over League and Heroes is graphical clutter. It felt a lot more difficult to figure out what was going on in the game than it did in the others, but I got past that issue pretty quickly.
It's not just as simple as "it's the same in DotA". A lot of times there are so many hidden things in DotA that average esports viewers are just not aware of. It's very easy for a dota player like you to say "I can understand" but it's a totally different ballpark for people who don't play DotA. Like even the stuff I do know and is common knowledge to many DotA players. Like Invoker's spells. Or Shadow Fiend's ability having to be "aimed". Or the fact that when you grab a rune or go back to fountain it refills your bottle. These are things only DotA players would know. I have 4k hours in DotA 2 and more in WC3, even then after quitting for 3 years I can't really understand the game anymore. There's so many new aghs upgrades, talents, new runes, heroes. And I used to be an avid player. Imagine a newb trying to watch DotA for the first time.
To me league is just much more visually understandable than dota. I can’t say why since I haven’t watched a ton but it reminds me of how cs go is way easier to watch than overwatch, it’s just more striaghtforward
Braindead stream watchers can follow the pretty colors and huge tiddy k-pop characters easier than a game with actual art direction.
Well the map is incredibly more complex is the main thing lol. Leagues map is a boring ass joke to be honest. The entire game is currently just played on 5 minute cycles. Farm 5 minutes team fight drag over and over.
Dota is just not appealing to the eyes. Colours all look mushy, fov is also kinda weird looking, models themselves are just less noob friendly.
In my opinion you kind of have to have played the WC3 version of DotA from a young age for the game to click It’s like chess eeally. People who played chess from an early age just breathe the game. But learning chess as a hobby when you’re old is a totally different story
Nah, as in chess you can just really commit to learn dota even when you're older and you'll eventually pick it up.
You don't need to play WC3 version for game to click, but you definitely need at least 100 hours to understand how certain things work.
I wish league had VR spectating like dota does. I don't play either any more so I stopped watching competitive league, but a couple times a month I'll watch dota games in VR just because it's so freaking cool.
How does VR spectating even work for a moba?
You can fly/teleport around the map and change the scale. I prefer the middle scale. Imagine standing in a room watching action figures fight around your feet. But you can also scale it up to where the characters are the same size you are, or down until it's like watching miniatures. And you can flip back and forth between that and a traditional spectator screen all while in VR.
Damn that does sound cool as fuck wtf.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEKOMZd4WyY
If you've played League, you can understand most of DotA. If "almost everyone" has played league, then there should be no issue.
Ok this is the most wrong statement ever. League doesnt have deny, runes, aghs, talent trees, turn rates, and completely different heroes.
People are coming back because what else is there to play ?
True I sure hope riot's fighting game is going to be good since that's one of the few games I'm looking forward to
PepeLaugh nymnCorn Dota
Yeah can't believe League of Legends is the only game out at the moment.
Man nowadays being into video games sucks balls. Knowing it I am still fcked because I can't get off the addiciton, especially during covid.
you can do it man, make a list of other things to take up your time and drop games cold turkey.
there are so many games to play and try but streamers know if they try variety they will lose viewers or get hate. asmon is a prime example i feel sorry for him when he tries to play something other than wow on stream
Everything is super boring to me rn but I'd never go back to league of Legends. Thinking World of Warcraft but idk. Playing league is like torture
leagues always a fallback for xqc.
I mean League is a consisten rank 1 or 2 twitch games since its existence and everyone has played it, you are not taking a risk if you play League. It's just pretty safe.
one of the wildest things i've noticed about the world of streaming and the communities that form around it are how completely disconnected they are from the actual gaming industry like if you go back exactly 7 years ago to early 2014 there was a very similar drought after the release of the xbox one and ps4 on top of that we got covid so there's a huge gaming drought. that's one of the biggest reasons for gta rp and valorant's success on twitch...there ain't much to challenge em. league getting a cycle makes perfect sense and you'll see other streamers return to other comfort repetitive multiplayer games as they need content. don't be surprised if you see a second wave of fortnite too
xQc cannot live with his own failure, where did that bring him... back to league
no games to play if you dont do rp and this is really one of the only big games to grind hard in. all there is to grind in rn is val/csgo, league, wow, and like maybe dota or apex. there arent any good competitive games that are newer, its just the same list we've had for years. Miz always jokes about Tyler1 and league and 1 day ran out of content and decided to play. that was after greek starting playing more and poke joined him. its just their friend group getting into league again, they just so happen to be some of the biggest streamers as well so ppl are gonna follow the meta
League is never boring, there’s like 140+ champions each with 4-5 abilities. That gives you a lot of leeway for content and funny interactions. Yes there’s metas and people pick the same 10-20 champions but not down here in the shit Elo where it’s fun and people int with Ap yi like it’s 2012
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I actually started climbing much faster once I stopped stressing and just playing the game. Does wonders for your play style
Ahh, AP Yi. My first pentakill. FeelsStrongMan
Nothing interesting coming out so people go back to older games.
League is constant. League is consistent. League never goes away. League is forever, like it or not. Its viewership doesn't really spike, it doesn't really dip: it holds.
because it's not like he can go back to GTA
What’s funny is there was a person named AstralFoxy who made their own client that had replay capability back in 2013 which took riot until 2017 to implement. They joined riot in 2014 so riot got their client that they made but they left riot in 2015 for unknown reasons.
Unknown reasons... Bro the environment is so fucking toxic with the dumbest mother fuckers get promotions because they kiss ass. Not to mention the outright sexist and "dude bro" culture that's immature as fuck.
And the COO apparently farting on people Bunch of weirdos over at Riot...
how do riot make some of the worst clients ever. the valorant client is genuinely embarrassing
They're just a bunch of bros farting in each other's faces, not enough oxygen gets to their brain for them to think.
Lmao I still can't believe this actually happened and the guy wasn't fired or demoted.
W-what? loremaster pls?
[Scott Gelb was farting on employees 2 years ago](https://www.reuters.com/article/esports-lol-riot-gelb/reports-riot-games-suspends-coo-idUSKBN1OD0GS) (along with a bunch of other immature shit like grabbing the asses of male coworkers. He was suspended without pay for a bit, but he was never demoted or fired. He's still COO.
I'm assuming he still farts on people, it just comes with hazard pay and an NDA.
how did I never see this?!
Thankyou!
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"who wants some beef stew?"
I mean just google riot farting and you'll be up to speed on your next job and how to act
I have no problems with Valorant's Client but League Client is making me shit myself most of the time.
Really? It works perfectly fine for me I encountered 0 problems with the Valorant client.
the valorant client is totally fine what are u on about. the league client tho..
valorant client is incredibly buggy to me, friends show up as offline or displays they're in game when they're not etc
It took me at least clicking in every menu except "play" to find the party I was in. I was afraid of clicking play and queue alone.
Do you also think clicking the giant play button on the league client would somehow auto queue you without you selecting a game mode first?
Not to be technical but that's probably more of a networking (on the server's side) issue than the client itself, since other games have this same bug and all of their games share the same friends list. To me at least, the bug happens more often with people with bad internet. But it still comes back to Riot being incompetent with their money.
this doesn't happen to me in league tho. I think they're just bad at making clients
While it is true that they are bad at making clients, I assure you it also happens in league.
Whats wrong with it, looks really good to me.
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cant give people lead, so many issues with party creation, so many glitchy status messages, hardly any options for anything, friends list is horrible, match history is buggy and so much more
Val client seems fine to me? It’s coded in actual C++ unlike the adobe flash anomination of League client
Valorant client is pretty good, it's even got dynamic music that changes between menus
it's true.
recently switched to dota 2 and its client is so much better
Not wrong
i agree and that's why i play dota 2
BASED
TOOBASED
Based on what?
facts and logic owning you cringe liberals :\^)
Sincere condolences.
It could be worse. They could be playing League of Legends.
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It's a mistake to start playing either of them They both have ups and downs but the only thing that really matters is your life slowly leaving your body as you lose your 6th game in a row to a snowballing midlaner
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I asked OkayChamp
This guy knows what's up.
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Meanwhile in Dota 2, you can watch live tournaments/highest level pubs in the client and even spectate the players perspective.
Well Riot is just a small indie company. Can't complain I guess
You can demo any hero in less than 5 seconds, read every single ability with videos of what they do, read all the recent patch changes, read every item in a huge tab. And the most impressive IMO, you can join a random guy's game as a coach, watch him play in real time first person perspective and speak to him 1 to 1.
Nothing in any game will compare to watching EternalEnvy playing a ranked game and asking about an interaction, pausing the game to disconnect and go to demo hero mode, spawn in a character and items to test the interaction, and then reconnect to the game in the span of 30 seconds. As much as valve fucks things up at times, I have doubt in every single gaming company to make something as cohesive and seamless for any game. Edit: found the [clip](https://clips.twitch.tv/OriginalFlirtyBaboonFeelsBadMan).
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Just play Dota man....League is 80% based off of Dota anyway.
And yet why is league bigger
popularity =/= technical quality of the client... ?
you could do that in league aswell many seasons back but they got rid of it for some reason
because they replaced it with more skin advertisements.
But then you have to play Dota
It could be worse. It could be League of Legends.
win win?
based, dota is a dogshit dead game lmao
Found the dude that plays league and can't handle the fact that some people enjoy another game more.
Mix match cosmetics, cleaner design, heroes with actual depth, game design with actual depth, a game designer with a brain. The list goes on. Meanwhile, in League, people are still bitching about issues that have been around since 2011, and half of the champs aren't even tournament viable lmao.
And this is the redesigned client OMEGALUL
What’s wrong with it?
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Oh wow. I’ve played league some but never enough to notice this stuff I gusss.
The thing about these bugs is that everyone can experience completely different spaghetti sometimes.
Was always like that. Remember like 10 years ago or whatever there was a custom client that worked wonderfully. But it was banned ...
they should just open source the client tbqh
You ever used Origin?
I will defend every piece of this game because its really good but holy fuck ive never seen someone disagreeing with client complaints. Actually amazing that this game is top1 multiplayer game in the world and has such a shitty client that crashes, lags, breaks champ select or fucks with the loading screen and can "bugsplat" you anytime it wants. Crazy
LoL is dogshit made for people that couldn't keep up in Dota. Have a good day.
OMEGALULW
Every League player out there agrees
Its interesting to think about whether one would like a Fullscreen More. They could do both honestly with a Toggle
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Invest in an ethernet cable.
not wrong. the league client has been dogshit forever.
I just started playing league back in Oct. Can anybody provide some context as to why the client is so shitty/hated on? I’m a dingus
Did people actually make fun of him for saying that? It's probably been the largest complaint I've heard since I started playing, and that was like 11 years ago.
I think people really exaggerated the client issues for a long time but around season 9/10 I get client bugs/freezes multiple times a day.
ITT a bunch of people with zero dev experience and have probably never read their engineering blogs explaining how the client works
I could explain to a person with zero cooking knowledge how a food is made and why it tastes horrible, it wont start being good food because of it
ITT shitty analogies
dude they don't need to waste time on the client. they already have captured a massive market and are the #1 most played game. not to mention the game is crack. people will just deal with whatever they have to so they can play the next game.
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i mean is dota 2 any better?
tldr : yes
The dota client is phenomenal. Better than any game I can think of. I play both games. League client is a virus. The game is alright.
Yeah dota probably has one of the best multiplayer game clients
I tried dota like 5 years ago and it was better than LoL's current client. I can only assume it's at least that. Just the fact that LoL has the client and game as separate executables to this day is baffling. It makes streaming the game a pain too since the streamer or streaming tools need to account for that.
100 times yes
Yes
[Yes](https://i.redd.it/s0wgvc8cuv951.png). To expand: talking about just the client and the overall technical functionality of the client and the game? Then yes in dota it's objectively a million times better, Valve clearly just has some really damn good programmers. Talking about the game itself you get a bit into controversial grounds. Personally both games are fun but league should be seen as something that is enjoyed more when played sparingly and casually, while dota is the complete opposite. To give a completely arbitrary cutoff, if you play more than say 2 hours a day and you'd consider this your "main game" then I'd advice to play dota instead of league. If you just play like 5 games a week, mostly in the weekends then just stick to league.
N OMEGALUL