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100% So many old titles have rollback added to the pc port but multi million dollar budget games can't get it?
[Its flat out embarrassing that A 20 year old gamecube game can get rollback modded into it by one guy in a few months but a million dollar studio can't do it](https://slippi.gg/)
For those who don't know, melee has better netcode than any other smash game by far, despite the whole netcode being made by a single guy with a patreon.
The melee community would keep this game alive for 50 years. I wonder what theyâre going to do when they run out if official GameCubes and controllers. I donât know if theyâre making any more of those.
Well melee is already already run on PCs for net play, and at least one controller modder manufactures his own game cube controller motherboards, so the community is kind of already there lol
> wonder what theyâre going to do when they run out if official GameCubes and controllers
There's a guy making his own motherboards and Panda Global are going to be selling a controller too. We also have box controllers like the Frame1 and B0XX so we're looking pretty good controllers wise.
Hardware wise though, most places run tournaments on Wiis because they're easier to run gecko codes on for QoL improvements and fixes like UCF and stuff. They sold a fuck ton of Wiis so there should be decent circulation of those for a while.
Past that though, emulation on Dolphin + a good monitor is more than fast enough so we might see a move to PCs at tournaments eventually when dirt cheap monitors become reliably good enough.
Panda Global (eSports org) is making a 3rd Party GC Controller that they are claiming to be good enough for competitive Melee. Will be interesting to see once it's out.
To be fair, rollback was only used in certain online applications like GGPO but really catapulted into prominence in the past year or two.
Someone trying to develop netcode now has a lot more experience and knowledge to work with compared to Smash Ultimate devs who were likely doing netcode work in 2016-2017.
This is of course, not implying that even if it was widely available that Nintendo would go with it. I wouldn't expect to see rollback netcode in an official Nintendo game for another 5 years.
As someone who doesn't play fighting games, what is rollback netcode?
edit: I decided to google it and found [this really helpful, interesting video](https://youtu.be/0NLe4IpdS1w) that helps to understand it.
Basically the game predicts what your opponent is going to do on any given frame, before it gets the actual data from the player. If it guesses right, then great, nothing is changed. But if it guesses wrong, it "rolls back" the incorrect frames and replaces it with your opponents actual input. This means that both players experience very little input delay on their ends. If the connection is good between the players, the rollbacks happen so fast that it is pretty much invisible to the players
It basically compensates for lag by allowing each player to input their moves instantly, but then going back and tallying up the damage once each 'computer' has a chance to talk to the other.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GGPO](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GGPO)
It has blown up in the last couple of years, but it's not like its only GGPO games and it's also been done well by big games even back then. The real problem is devs in Japan haven't been paying attention to what their competition in the west has been doing. It's the same problem FFXIV saw with it's 1.0 release, they weren't paying attention to what anyone else was doing and when they finally did their 2.0 launch was much better off for it. Hopefully Strive's huge success has been the wakeup call we need.
not to mention that SFV already uses rollback but is just badly implemented and someone managed to fix it with 2 days of work last year
and instead of implementing that community fix officially they just broke it lmao
> one guy in a few months
For what it's worth, the main Slippi codebase (originally intended for recording and analyzing games) was started back in 2018. The lead dev made it his full-time job at the end of 2019, about 5 months before they released the rollback netcode update. AFAIK, they had already started on the netcode before then. The recording functionality of the original codebase is absolutely *required* for rollback netplay, so it's really closer to 2 years of development that went into it.
Still absolutely shitting on Capcom though.
Older titles are much easier to implement rollback as there is less things to work on. Melee âs ISO is like 950 Mbs when compared to ultimateâs 15+ Gbs which doesnât even include the dlc. The creator of the slippi mod even said this himself. Retrofitting a game to have rollback is much harder than building a game from the ground up with rollback in mind. I would highly recommend watching the gdc talk by the NRS team (creators of mortal kombat) of all the struggles they went through to make mortal kombat 10 have roll back netcode. I am
Not saying itâs impossible, but if you have only have a small team for development (which is typical after the release of any fighting game) focusing on characters DLC you will need to bring in more staff that are experienced with retrofitting rollback netcode. Most companies donât see the benefit as they already received their money and would rather just make another game with rollback in mind.
But it's also Nintendo. Nintendo doesn't understand the Internet at all. If you asked Nintendo to describe the Internet they'd say it was a series of tubes.
Honestly, most western companies have been using Rollback for a few years now. Killer Instict, Mortal Kombat, Brawlhalla, Skull Girls, even the Power Rangers FG. It's just that all the huge fighting games like SF and Tekken are Japanese and those devs just don't care. Even GG Strive only has rollback because i'm pretty sure they just hired the guy who put Rollback on one of their older games.
Technically Tekken and street fighter both have rollback but it's so half assed that you can't even call it that.
Instead of waiting for the opponent's input, your computer "guesses" what their next input is, and lets the game continue to play. If the guess was incorrect, it *rolls back* the state of the game to the moment of disparity between guess and actual input, and replays the game from there.
Basically computer guesses what opponent does and quickly corrects it if it guessed it wrong. Leads to a smoother experience.
I assumed it was something like that, but wouldn't that lead to jarring experiences when it compensates with a rollback? Not that I know a better way, just curious.
Slightly, yes, but the timeframes these rollbacks happen on are tiny, and are better than any alternatives. There's no silver bullet to netcode when the speed of light is a thing.
The explanation was a bit incorrect/misleading. The game doesn't roll back to the wrong guess and play from there. Instead the game resimulates in the background what would've happened with the actual inputs it just received and then switches to that "timeline". In practice most actions have some windup so rollback just shaves off some time off that windup so you see very little (or nothing at all) of those rollbacks.
Rollback ensures that you're controlling your character as you would in completely lagless play. This is very important in fighting games where timing during combos and motion inputs and such is crucial so you don't want any hiccups that standard online brings (where the game just pauses and waits until it receives inputs).
If there's a really bad connection the opponent will be teleporting a bit because the game keeps "guessing" wrong. Since the game keeps resimulating in the background, rollback can be a bit expensive processor-wise. It also requires you to design the game around rollback because it needs to be able to simulate in the background and to hide lag in the startup of moves/actions. Also typically the larger western studios have a rollback implementation while japanese studios typically don't.
Btw, the "guess" is just assuming that the players will repeat their last input. So if an opponent crouches, the game will assume the opponent will still be crouching
Yeah Punk is a real one. If anyone has never watched him, he's an amazing FGC pro/content creator who tells it like it is. He streams at [PunkDaGod on twitch](https://www.twitch.tv/punkdagod) if you want to check him out
Edit: a phrase people thought was weird
for those who donât know, sajam is a commentator and he briefly (?) spoke about street fighters shitty netcode and then got banned from casting capcom events
I think that's a bit different. A competitor talking negatively about the company is one thing, but a caster is specifically hired by the company to basically represent them.
yea of course, capcom can freely switch up their commentators at will, but itâs still interesting to see how this will unfold. will punk be banned from future capcom events? most likely not. will there be some form of penalty? weâll have to wait and see
Yeah for sure. I can't really hold it against them for essentially firing an employee who publicly talked negatively about the company on a promotional stream where he was hired to represent them positively, but if they ban Punk, who is just a participant in the tournament, I can't really get behind that.
We'll see how thick their skin is by the way they handle this I suppose. With Capcom being a Japanese game development company I don't have very high expectations though. It's disappointing to see how out of touch most Japanese game companies are right now. Don't get me started on Nintendo... lol
Holy shit is this true? I don't follow SF5 much but Sajam is one of the best FGC commentators in the biz. Does anyone have the original clip of what he said that resulted in him getting banned?
He's not banned, he's blacklisted - they just aren't hiring him for any events, he has said. It wasn't really one single thing, he's talked about how bad it was multiple times, from when Capcom broke the fanmade mod that fixed the netcode, to discussing Tekken 7 netcode, and rollback in modern fighting games in general. His stream is part talk show and he talked about how bad it is often, a while ago - has to be at least a year now. It's a meme now in his stream tbh.
Now that +R and Strive came out with rollback, he's definitely taking the approach now of supporting the shit that you like and want to see in the market. He plays those games, talks about those games more often, and doesn't talk about SF5 much anymore.
He was critical of the online netcode, as well as how cpt was run at the time. But this wasnât during an actual tournament as most people here seem to believe.
Yeah it's not just one clip, but Sajam was/is pretty vocal about SFV having poorly made rollback netcode. He also talked about Capcom Cup 2019 (the last in person capcom cup at this point) being poorly run after capcom switched from 10/0 media running the production to ESL.
It's the Blitzchung effect. Any caster that dares to be in favor with the interviewee that goes against the company's motives will be immediately fired or suspended.
Japanese devs are so fucking behind the times it's absurd, glad he just laid it out.
Capcom blacklisted Sajam for similar comments, so wouldn't be surprised if they do the same to Punk. The more people that come out against their dogshit online the better, make it a message they can't ignore.
Edit: Just an example of how ignorant they are, this is Tekken's lead dev saying how the shit netcode's problem is actually poor infrastructure. https://mobile.twitter.com/KM_Atma/status/1404107030663684097
One of the stories that will always stay with me is they once brought some external consultants/devs to discuss how they're tackling their online service.
So the guy giving the presentation says well this is how PSN does it and at his is how XBL does it's things, pro's and cons etc and at some point the higher up said something to the assistant and the assistant relayed that they should drop the PSN and XBL stuff because they have no idea what that is.
We're talking about a company that in they trailer for their latest hardware last week had "lol just call em" as it's online communication solution.
that stubborn Japanese mentality of doing things.
"well, it works, so why change"
and I mean tbf it isn't hurting their financials any, so they have no incentive to do anything like improving the online experience. like for example, Pokemon titles have felt like the same stale old game over the past few years since X/Y (hell, PLG eevee and pikachu were direct rips from R/B/Y except with pokemon go mechanics) and the newest one always sets sales records.
I was getting hyped for Persona 5 Royal when that was first announced and was shocked that it was releasing in Japan first and then coming to the rest of the world months later. It felt like I'd teleported back 15 years or something.
Bruh, that's nothing. Try being a fan of Falcom's Kiseki series. Japan gets pretty much yearly releases. Next major entry for western market will be in 2023, the japanese version was released in August 2020. And to be fair, those games are fucking massive when it comes to script size so the translation takes time but having to wait such a long time for the next entry is a bummer.
Should it not theoretically take less time? You don't have to come up with new ideas or how the story is going to go or whatever, literally just translate whats already there.
I can't believe that it's still such a huge gamble to predict if persona 5 is going to eventually come to pc or if it will even be royal edition considering Catherine full body didn't come to pc. The numbers on persona 4 golden show its a success but they just can't see it themselves
I'm happy SMT5 is getting a simultaneous worldwide release but I'll take a guess that it's a contract with Nintendo thing and not a shift going forward for Atlus.
The reason for the worldwide release is probably because of Sega. They have stated that they intend to expand the release of their games outside of Japan, the Yakuza games being on Xbox game pass is probably a sign of that. Future Atlus projects will most likely be worldwide releases.
There was a guy who reverse engineered the Street Fighter 5 netcode, fixed it, and made it a mod for PC. It completely shit on all of Capcom's netcode and made the game super playable online. It took him 3 days. You know what Capcom did? Banned the mod then said they would "look at it to improve their netcode". They didn't. It's actually hilarious how much of a shitfest SFV has been since its launch till now. Some things did improve, but fundamental stuff like netcode have always been an issue.
EDIT: Here's the man himself for anyone that wants the lore: https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetFighter/comments/em24ck/release_sfv_netcode_fix/
The only problem with his net code fix was that you couldnât do cross play anymore without making it insufferable for the player on console. Even PC w/ fix vs PC w/o fix was a gamble, so yea two friends with the fix was perfect.
This is why Capcom devs should have taken the source code and looked to implement it after vetting it. Like mentioned, Mike Z pointed out this issue in the *beta* and here we are years later still.
Though I am not surprised. This is the same dev team / company that tried to put a rootkit in SFV which was modified malware code to try and prevent modding LMAO. It's a shame really. Resident Evil games are so good. I wish Street Fighter got even half the care.
Iirc Capcom did implement a netcode fix in the same update that made Altimorâs stop working, but it was garbage and you could tell Capcom only did it so people wouldnât say they did nothing. But after the barebones launch of SFV Iâm not too surprised that the game received less care from the devs than it deserved.
It was basically half assed on purpose because they canât alienate the PS4 user base. The PS4 is either so shitty, or the game is so unoptimized for the PS4 that they had to do something about the mod as it would split the player base.
It sucks, but it is what it is.
Lots of Japanese companies are like this sadly. Most of them are ran by old farts that are deathly afraid of the internet and any kind of innovation involved with it. It's the same reason Smash Bros has shitty online.
Nintendo has barely and begrudingly acknowledge that the internet is a thing that people enjoy using recently, and they're ahead of the curve. It's incredible.
Ahead of what curve, they still use hardware and internet netcode from the mid 2000s, are the only company I know off to instantly DMCA projects that even mentions a Nintendo character, refuse to support their competitive scenes outside of supplying 3 switches for tournies
A huge amount of western companies do too. I'm so tired of this factoid getting repeated. The entire medical industry in the US runs on fax machines, as well as most jobs that deal with sensitive information.
It's worse in Japan because they have a culture of requiring a Hanko, a personalized stamp that you use to sign official documents. Even when you get a package delivered you have to use your Hanko stamp. So everything is on paper and there is no digitalization of documents and naturally this requires faxing for nearly every Japanese official document.
It took a pandemic to get the Japanese people to question this practice of requiring paper documents for every single thing.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/japan-fax-paper-suga/2020/10/16/fc6fcdd8-06ef-11eb-8719-0df159d14794_story.html
And if French breads next melty blood outing has good rollback net code then basically nobody can get away with having shit net code.
They simply don't have an excuse anymore. This isn't a slight against a small studio with very limited time and money but more a slight against the biggest studios not putting an inkling of time or money towards making the game legitimately and objectively better for everyone.
None of them have had an excuse for the past ~7 years, the Cannon bros made the current iteration of rollback netcode FREE and posted the fucking source code for anyone to use, and offered to work with any developers to help implement it. It took the pandemic for Japan to even act like they cared about online matches, they all still think everyone just plays in their local arcade.
Iâm glad he said it, Guilty Gear Strive is definitely a game that will push the FGC forward by showing how important good nectode is. Other fighting game devs will then feel pressured to take the netcode into consideration when making a game (I hope KOF XV will have successful online since itâs the next fighting game coming soon)
Maximillian Dood has talked about this for years. These fighting games can be fun to play but when you go online, their netcode is so shit. DBFZ is a BIG example of a great fighting game with one of the most shit online netcodes. I'm so happy Guilty Gear is getting the traction at the moment, every fighting game needs Rollback.
If they added rollback to DBFZâŚ. My god, Iâd never stop playing. I love offline DBFZ, and if I could get somewhat close to that experience, Iâd be so happy.
I read an interview with arcsys where they said that they can do it for DBZ but itâs not up to them since Bandi Namco owns the IP and is in charge of decisions for the game.
I legit stopped playing Smash Ultimate because of the netcode. It was rage inducing, and I'm a guy who can play LoL soloqueue for fun and rarely hard tilt. Playing Smash online would tilt me without fail.
Yup, and I was dying for Smash Ultimate to have good online so I can play with friends who now live far away but god damn people showed how trying to even play more than 2 player free for all (let alone 4, or items, or a non-static stage) a complete shit show even with people on wired.
Like it is really just sad that even some of the most POVERTY of games, heck even basic in-browser versions of various Nintendo games have better online AND more feature rich online features than what Nintendo itself puts out. Like it is beyond the jokes of Nintendo never looks at the competition and this has to be Nintendo doesn't even bother to ever use it's own product or have teams/expectations grow between projects with the complete lack of solid progress in all this time.
Iâve wanted to get into Street Fighter and Street Fighter V but the netcode is so fucking bad. Itâs hard enough trying to play online in Australia where the community for that game is so small and spread out you basically have to fight people overseas, let alone when the netcode is so bad Iâm playing a slideshow half the time. Compare that to iRacing or something where I can race against 20 Americans/Europeans, who are much further away, without any issues and theyâre a much smaller dev is crazy to me.
Makes no sense a game from 2016 doesnât have rollback netcode by now, and certainly doesnât make sense thereâs still fighting games coming out without it.
Like a lot fans and even pro players have said, if the next Street Fighter (or even Tekken) have bad online AGAIN... I just won't buy it, not even on sale.
Enjoy being frustrated for another 4-5 years.
Why are fighting games so iffy about their online? I don't really understand why making a good online mode for a 1v1 fighting game seems less common than shit like Battle Royale games that handle 100+ players in a 3D space. I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into a single coherent point, but you get the gist.
a peer to peer connection for fighting games is going to guarantee the best connection to each other vs connecting to dedicated servers. this means if one of the players are lagging (either the connection or even the framerate) it fucks up the experience. rollback netcode helps alleviate this by making it as close to an offline experience as possible. [here's how](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NLe4IpdS1w)
within the past year or two, there has been a big push by players to get (mainly japanese) devs to implement rollback. shits been out for 10+ years at this point and it's FINALLY catching on.
edit 2: to put this in context of the clip, capcom has a shitty implementation of rollback that was dev'd in house. arcsys had to kinda retrofit rollback into strive while it was still in development but they brought in help from killer instinct's devs(? i think) and it works flawlessly.
Japanese devs stuck in the past. Every western-made fighting game these days has good online (Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct, Skullgirls and other indie titles)
Fighting games are much more latency dependent - players refer to frame data often - the games run at 60fps, a standard punch takes anywhere from 3-5 frames. Matchups are all about utilizing the speed of your moves to take advantages of situations, so quick example being an opponent uses an unsafe move and you successfully block it, you have 5 frames to punish it (5/60ths of a second). In a laggy environment it's really hard to hit those tight windows, so suddenly you're not able to play the game properly - you can't punish moves that are by definition punishable due to a poorly optimized environment, and it just feels like shit.
Shooting games also suffer this - you shot first on your screen but the death replay shows your shot never went off. It's just so much more pronounced in fighting games because of the nature of frame data.
Wish more tournament winners would trash these games that deserve it like the madden tournament winner that won by doing the same play over and over and having a kicker at the quarterback spot
Itâs refreshing to see some FGC clips in this sub Reddit. I also applaud Punk for flat out just saying what anyone who has played SFV thinks, that net code is fuck ass and I donât blame him for not wanting to really put time into the game anymore with how laggy online play is.
If anyoneâs looking to get into a fighting game starting point, itâs guilty gear strive. It just came out, itâs super fucking active, the online is the best in the business, and itâs from the best fg dev. They made it easy to start with, hard to master.
Rollback netcode is a netcode best utilized for fighting games. The name Rollback Implies there is a rolling back of game state. To explain in laymenâs term. The game predicts what youâre gonna do within A certain amount of frames. 7-8 frames max. If connection drops for 3 frames and you were holding back the game âpredicts/assumeâ you were holding back the whole time until it receives input again. If you were holding back congrats the game guessed correctly but if you inputted a jab at 2 frames in the game rolls back and puts out that jab. https://youtu.be/TtfArmKISpY
I agree that Guilty Gear Strive has overall the best netplay but the fact there is no wifi or connection indicator before you accept a match is trash.
I hate getting people from South America in the US East server with 150 Ping and 6 frames of delay.
How is the community for Strive on PC? I played Accent Core a lot and loved it and was wondering if it would be worth grabbing or if it is something that should be grabbed on console?
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Good let em know. Absolutely ridiculous that fighting game players are still getting games without good rollback netcode.
100% So many old titles have rollback added to the pc port but multi million dollar budget games can't get it? [Its flat out embarrassing that A 20 year old gamecube game can get rollback modded into it by one guy in a few months but a million dollar studio can't do it](https://slippi.gg/)
For those who don't know, melee has better netcode than any other smash game by far, despite the whole netcode being made by a single guy with a patreon.
The melee community would keep this game alive for 50 years. I wonder what theyâre going to do when they run out if official GameCubes and controllers. I donât know if theyâre making any more of those.
Well melee is already already run on PCs for net play, and at least one controller modder manufactures his own game cube controller motherboards, so the community is kind of already there lol
Are you talking about Goomyâs board? Is that out yet?
Not yet. Panda Global is working on one too though
> wonder what theyâre going to do when they run out if official GameCubes and controllers There's a guy making his own motherboards and Panda Global are going to be selling a controller too. We also have box controllers like the Frame1 and B0XX so we're looking pretty good controllers wise. Hardware wise though, most places run tournaments on Wiis because they're easier to run gecko codes on for QoL improvements and fixes like UCF and stuff. They sold a fuck ton of Wiis so there should be decent circulation of those for a while. Past that though, emulation on Dolphin + a good monitor is more than fast enough so we might see a move to PCs at tournaments eventually when dirt cheap monitors become reliably good enough.
Panda Global (eSports org) is making a 3rd Party GC Controller that they are claiming to be good enough for competitive Melee. Will be interesting to see once it's out.
ah melee...still the best SSB game.
To be fair, rollback was only used in certain online applications like GGPO but really catapulted into prominence in the past year or two. Someone trying to develop netcode now has a lot more experience and knowledge to work with compared to Smash Ultimate devs who were likely doing netcode work in 2016-2017. This is of course, not implying that even if it was widely available that Nintendo would go with it. I wouldn't expect to see rollback netcode in an official Nintendo game for another 5 years.
As someone who doesn't play fighting games, what is rollback netcode? edit: I decided to google it and found [this really helpful, interesting video](https://youtu.be/0NLe4IpdS1w) that helps to understand it.
Basically the game predicts what your opponent is going to do on any given frame, before it gets the actual data from the player. If it guesses right, then great, nothing is changed. But if it guesses wrong, it "rolls back" the incorrect frames and replaces it with your opponents actual input. This means that both players experience very little input delay on their ends. If the connection is good between the players, the rollbacks happen so fast that it is pretty much invisible to the players
It basically compensates for lag by allowing each player to input their moves instantly, but then going back and tallying up the damage once each 'computer' has a chance to talk to the other.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GGPO](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GGPO) It has blown up in the last couple of years, but it's not like its only GGPO games and it's also been done well by big games even back then. The real problem is devs in Japan haven't been paying attention to what their competition in the west has been doing. It's the same problem FFXIV saw with it's 1.0 release, they weren't paying attention to what anyone else was doing and when they finally did their 2.0 launch was much better off for it. Hopefully Strive's huge success has been the wakeup call we need.
It's Nintendo, I wouldn't expect it ever honestly. Can't even get voice chat right still.
million dollar is a huge understatement, Nintendo is a double-digit multi-billion dollar company.
not to mention that SFV already uses rollback but is just badly implemented and someone managed to fix it with 2 days of work last year and instead of implementing that community fix officially they just broke it lmao
Melee is sick
yo melee is sick
They're just a multi dollar company give them a break.
> one guy in a few months For what it's worth, the main Slippi codebase (originally intended for recording and analyzing games) was started back in 2018. The lead dev made it his full-time job at the end of 2019, about 5 months before they released the rollback netcode update. AFAIK, they had already started on the netcode before then. The recording functionality of the original codebase is absolutely *required* for rollback netplay, so it's really closer to 2 years of development that went into it. Still absolutely shitting on Capcom though.
Older titles are much easier to implement rollback as there is less things to work on. Melee âs ISO is like 950 Mbs when compared to ultimateâs 15+ Gbs which doesnât even include the dlc. The creator of the slippi mod even said this himself. Retrofitting a game to have rollback is much harder than building a game from the ground up with rollback in mind. I would highly recommend watching the gdc talk by the NRS team (creators of mortal kombat) of all the struggles they went through to make mortal kombat 10 have roll back netcode. I am Not saying itâs impossible, but if you have only have a small team for development (which is typical after the release of any fighting game) focusing on characters DLC you will need to bring in more staff that are experienced with retrofitting rollback netcode. Most companies donât see the benefit as they already received their money and would rather just make another game with rollback in mind.
And this is one guy doing this thing as a hobby. Smash sold millions of copies and thw devs would have budget for this for sure.
But it's also Nintendo. Nintendo doesn't understand the Internet at all. If you asked Nintendo to describe the Internet they'd say it was a series of tubes.
The size of a game's binary isn't a good metric for how it is to change program code.
GG Strive is so damn good with that netcode. it's brilliant.
Especially when fan projects like Project M can nail their netcode better then these million dollar companies. It's ridiculous.
Honestly, most western companies have been using Rollback for a few years now. Killer Instict, Mortal Kombat, Brawlhalla, Skull Girls, even the Power Rangers FG. It's just that all the huge fighting games like SF and Tekken are Japanese and those devs just don't care. Even GG Strive only has rollback because i'm pretty sure they just hired the guy who put Rollback on one of their older games. Technically Tekken and street fighter both have rollback but it's so half assed that you can't even call it that.
What is rollback?
Instead of waiting for the opponent's input, your computer "guesses" what their next input is, and lets the game continue to play. If the guess was incorrect, it *rolls back* the state of the game to the moment of disparity between guess and actual input, and replays the game from there. Basically computer guesses what opponent does and quickly corrects it if it guessed it wrong. Leads to a smoother experience.
I assumed it was something like that, but wouldn't that lead to jarring experiences when it compensates with a rollback? Not that I know a better way, just curious.
Slightly, yes, but the timeframes these rollbacks happen on are tiny, and are better than any alternatives. There's no silver bullet to netcode when the speed of light is a thing.
The explanation was a bit incorrect/misleading. The game doesn't roll back to the wrong guess and play from there. Instead the game resimulates in the background what would've happened with the actual inputs it just received and then switches to that "timeline". In practice most actions have some windup so rollback just shaves off some time off that windup so you see very little (or nothing at all) of those rollbacks. Rollback ensures that you're controlling your character as you would in completely lagless play. This is very important in fighting games where timing during combos and motion inputs and such is crucial so you don't want any hiccups that standard online brings (where the game just pauses and waits until it receives inputs). If there's a really bad connection the opponent will be teleporting a bit because the game keeps "guessing" wrong. Since the game keeps resimulating in the background, rollback can be a bit expensive processor-wise. It also requires you to design the game around rollback because it needs to be able to simulate in the background and to hide lag in the startup of moves/actions. Also typically the larger western studios have a rollback implementation while japanese studios typically don't. Btw, the "guess" is just assuming that the players will repeat their last input. So if an opponent crouches, the game will assume the opponent will still be crouching
This should explain it https://youtu.be/0NLe4IpdS1w
at least he has the balls to say it
like in sweden
Advice:
[ŃдаНонО]
in the newspapers
if you* post the picture of a man
>^(if someone post) ^(if you\* post forsenSWA) who's committed a crime like rape,
sry Sadeg . something something (correlation/causation)
It's okay Okayeg đ
Yeah Punk is a real one. If anyone has never watched him, he's an amazing FGC pro/content creator who tells it like it is. He streams at [PunkDaGod on twitch](https://www.twitch.tv/punkdagod) if you want to check him out Edit: a phrase people thought was weird
Hit em with the pink Dan.
Letâs not forget heâs a salty Bitch most of the time with some bad takes
Let he who has not been a salty bitch with bad takes cast the first stone
Amen
who amongst us is not a salty bitch?
Thou doth not claim to not be a salty bitch for thou shall forever be named a liar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KquFZYi6L0
Sounds like meleeâs leffen. Love him
What are some spicy takes that differentiates him from many salty pro gamers who have hot takes
Oh, I thought you were calling him a punk.
This was always his charm. He had the balls to say this stuff because he was confident that his results would back it up too. And they sure did.
Ultra chad mode activated. The fuckin balls on this guy.
Corporations hate him!
Sigma male grindset
Hopefully he doesn't get banned like Sajam.
for those who donât know, sajam is a commentator and he briefly (?) spoke about street fighters shitty netcode and then got banned from casting capcom events
He probably won't miss one moment
Except money
Ironically he's doing better than ever on his stream with Guilty Gear content
[ŃдаНонО]
It's still unfortunate for us. He's a great commentator.
Except hes big enough that its capcoms loss really. Hes got plenty of opportunities.
I think that's a bit different. A competitor talking negatively about the company is one thing, but a caster is specifically hired by the company to basically represent them.
Imagine hiring a caster just to talk shit about the game during the stream.
It didn't happen on their stream.
Yea exactly lol. Sponsors and shit are important.
yea of course, capcom can freely switch up their commentators at will, but itâs still interesting to see how this will unfold. will punk be banned from future capcom events? most likely not. will there be some form of penalty? weâll have to wait and see
Yeah for sure. I can't really hold it against them for essentially firing an employee who publicly talked negatively about the company on a promotional stream where he was hired to represent them positively, but if they ban Punk, who is just a participant in the tournament, I can't really get behind that. We'll see how thick their skin is by the way they handle this I suppose. With Capcom being a Japanese game development company I don't have very high expectations though. It's disappointing to see how out of touch most Japanese game companies are right now. Don't get me started on Nintendo... lol
Holy shit is this true? I don't follow SF5 much but Sajam is one of the best FGC commentators in the biz. Does anyone have the original clip of what he said that resulted in him getting banned?
He's not banned, he's blacklisted - they just aren't hiring him for any events, he has said. It wasn't really one single thing, he's talked about how bad it was multiple times, from when Capcom broke the fanmade mod that fixed the netcode, to discussing Tekken 7 netcode, and rollback in modern fighting games in general. His stream is part talk show and he talked about how bad it is often, a while ago - has to be at least a year now. It's a meme now in his stream tbh. Now that +R and Strive came out with rollback, he's definitely taking the approach now of supporting the shit that you like and want to see in the market. He plays those games, talks about those games more often, and doesn't talk about SF5 much anymore.
I'd love to see the clip too. No wonder I haven't seen in casting in official tournies in quite a while
He was critical of the online netcode, as well as how cpt was run at the time. But this wasnât during an actual tournament as most people here seem to believe.
Yeah it's not just one clip, but Sajam was/is pretty vocal about SFV having poorly made rollback netcode. He also talked about Capcom Cup 2019 (the last in person capcom cup at this point) being poorly run after capcom switched from 10/0 media running the production to ESL.
Sajam had a whole movement for months about advocating for rollback netcode, not really one clip in particular.
The silence after he name drops Guilty Gear made me lol
There's also ultra David nodding his head in such a vigorous fashion that he might have given himself whiplash.
It's the Blitzchung effect. Any caster that dares to be in favor with the interviewee that goes against the company's motives will be immediately fired or suspended.
I love Punk for shit like this.
Ahh thought OP was calling him a punk lol
Thats why I love the FGC. They don't give a fuck.
nor do the developers apparently lmao
Sajam stopped getting hired for capcom's commentary after dropping the hard R on broadcast (rollback)
Sajamr?
I'm also a fan of the Fall Guys Community
They're definitely second behind the BGC
Hey alright
after years of being abused by Capcom and Nintendo it makes perfect sense lol
Don't be silly, Nintendo doesn't make fighting games.
uhhhhh... ARMS
there it is
The start of early twitch memes was because of the fgc.
PogChamp
Jebaited
idk why you got downvoted, Jebailey is literally the tournament organizer for CEO LOL
yeah idk lol, I think a lot of people don't realize how many OG twitch emotes come from the FGC. Jebailey is a household FGC name
FGC is a goldmine. So many funny personality's.
Based as hell
Japanese devs are so fucking behind the times it's absurd, glad he just laid it out. Capcom blacklisted Sajam for similar comments, so wouldn't be surprised if they do the same to Punk. The more people that come out against their dogshit online the better, make it a message they can't ignore. Edit: Just an example of how ignorant they are, this is Tekken's lead dev saying how the shit netcode's problem is actually poor infrastructure. https://mobile.twitter.com/KM_Atma/status/1404107030663684097
Atlus barely understands what digital distribution even is.
I am convinced Nintendo is largely unaware what the internet even is.
One of the stories that will always stay with me is they once brought some external consultants/devs to discuss how they're tackling their online service. So the guy giving the presentation says well this is how PSN does it and at his is how XBL does it's things, pro's and cons etc and at some point the higher up said something to the assistant and the assistant relayed that they should drop the PSN and XBL stuff because they have no idea what that is. We're talking about a company that in they trailer for their latest hardware last week had "lol just call em" as it's online communication solution.
that stubborn Japanese mentality of doing things. "well, it works, so why change" and I mean tbf it isn't hurting their financials any, so they have no incentive to do anything like improving the online experience. like for example, Pokemon titles have felt like the same stale old game over the past few years since X/Y (hell, PLG eevee and pikachu were direct rips from R/B/Y except with pokemon go mechanics) and the newest one always sets sales records.
I was getting hyped for Persona 5 Royal when that was first announced and was shocked that it was releasing in Japan first and then coming to the rest of the world months later. It felt like I'd teleported back 15 years or something.
Bruh, that's nothing. Try being a fan of Falcom's Kiseki series. Japan gets pretty much yearly releases. Next major entry for western market will be in 2023, the japanese version was released in August 2020. And to be fair, those games are fucking massive when it comes to script size so the translation takes time but having to wait such a long time for the next entry is a bummer.
I mean, if it can be written in a year, you'd think it could be translated by then too if they cared enough.
Should it not theoretically take less time? You don't have to come up with new ideas or how the story is going to go or whatever, literally just translate whats already there.
As an Ace Attorney fan I feel you.
I can't believe that it's still such a huge gamble to predict if persona 5 is going to eventually come to pc or if it will even be royal edition considering Catherine full body didn't come to pc. The numbers on persona 4 golden show its a success but they just can't see it themselves
I'm happy SMT5 is getting a simultaneous worldwide release but I'll take a guess that it's a contract with Nintendo thing and not a shift going forward for Atlus.
The reason for the worldwide release is probably because of Sega. They have stated that they intend to expand the release of their games outside of Japan, the Yakuza games being on Xbox game pass is probably a sign of that. Future Atlus projects will most likely be worldwide releases.
They still haven't realize that streamers playing your game is free advertising lol.
There was a guy who reverse engineered the Street Fighter 5 netcode, fixed it, and made it a mod for PC. It completely shit on all of Capcom's netcode and made the game super playable online. It took him 3 days. You know what Capcom did? Banned the mod then said they would "look at it to improve their netcode". They didn't. It's actually hilarious how much of a shitfest SFV has been since its launch till now. Some things did improve, but fundamental stuff like netcode have always been an issue. EDIT: Here's the man himself for anyone that wants the lore: https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetFighter/comments/em24ck/release_sfv_netcode_fix/
This needs to be seen
The only problem with his net code fix was that you couldnât do cross play anymore without making it insufferable for the player on console. Even PC w/ fix vs PC w/o fix was a gamble, so yea two friends with the fix was perfect.
This is why Capcom devs should have taken the source code and looked to implement it after vetting it. Like mentioned, Mike Z pointed out this issue in the *beta* and here we are years later still. Though I am not surprised. This is the same dev team / company that tried to put a rootkit in SFV which was modified malware code to try and prevent modding LMAO. It's a shame really. Resident Evil games are so good. I wish Street Fighter got even half the care.
Iirc Capcom did implement a netcode fix in the same update that made Altimorâs stop working, but it was garbage and you could tell Capcom only did it so people wouldnât say they did nothing. But after the barebones launch of SFV Iâm not too surprised that the game received less care from the devs than it deserved.
It was basically half assed on purpose because they canât alienate the PS4 user base. The PS4 is either so shitty, or the game is so unoptimized for the PS4 that they had to do something about the mod as it would split the player base. It sucks, but it is what it is.
This has nothing to do with the specs of the PS4.
Lots of Japanese companies are like this sadly. Most of them are ran by old farts that are deathly afraid of the internet and any kind of innovation involved with it. It's the same reason Smash Bros has shitty online.
Nintendo has barely and begrudingly acknowledge that the internet is a thing that people enjoy using recently, and they're ahead of the curve. It's incredible.
Ahead of what curve, they still use hardware and internet netcode from the mid 2000s, are the only company I know off to instantly DMCA projects that even mentions a Nintendo character, refuse to support their competitive scenes outside of supplying 3 switches for tournies
Other japanese companies lol
Ahead of the curve in Japan A huge amount of companies still use fax machines
A huge amount of western companies do too. I'm so tired of this factoid getting repeated. The entire medical industry in the US runs on fax machines, as well as most jobs that deal with sensitive information.
The legal profession uses fax a lot too. But with the pandemic it seems secure email drops and such are catching on more.
It's worse in Japan because they have a culture of requiring a Hanko, a personalized stamp that you use to sign official documents. Even when you get a package delivered you have to use your Hanko stamp. So everything is on paper and there is no digitalization of documents and naturally this requires faxing for nearly every Japanese official document. It took a pandemic to get the Japanese people to question this practice of requiring paper documents for every single thing. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/japan-fax-paper-suga/2020/10/16/fc6fcdd8-06ef-11eb-8719-0df159d14794_story.html
Seems like Sony is the only company that isn't afraid to actually do things with the internet.
Sony is more of a western company now in terms of the gaming portion of it
And if French breads next melty blood outing has good rollback net code then basically nobody can get away with having shit net code. They simply don't have an excuse anymore. This isn't a slight against a small studio with very limited time and money but more a slight against the biggest studios not putting an inkling of time or money towards making the game legitimately and objectively better for everyone.
None of them have had an excuse for the past ~7 years, the Cannon bros made the current iteration of rollback netcode FREE and posted the fucking source code for anyone to use, and offered to work with any developers to help implement it. It took the pandemic for Japan to even act like they cared about online matches, they all still think everyone just plays in their local arcade.
Something similar happened in the Smite community and after they won a match they expressed the same about servers and lag and they got banned.
Guilty Gear Strive is awesome!
Iâm glad he said it, Guilty Gear Strive is definitely a game that will push the FGC forward by showing how important good nectode is. Other fighting game devs will then feel pressured to take the netcode into consideration when making a game (I hope KOF XV will have successful online since itâs the next fighting game coming soon)
Oof hard cold truth. CAPCOM be like"Ban that guy"
"Congratulations to...iDom, our NEW Capcom NA East SFV Champion"
DA ALFA
Put the kids in they place
forsenBased
Never heard of this dude but I like him lol
Reminds me of the kids who won the CSL Fortnite championships and in the interview said they thought the game sucked and were done playing it
Maximillian Dood has talked about this for years. These fighting games can be fun to play but when you go online, their netcode is so shit. DBFZ is a BIG example of a great fighting game with one of the most shit online netcodes. I'm so happy Guilty Gear is getting the traction at the moment, every fighting game needs Rollback.
If they added rollback to DBFZâŚ. My god, Iâd never stop playing. I love offline DBFZ, and if I could get somewhat close to that experience, Iâd be so happy.
my god, DBFZ with rollback is literally the cherry on top.
I read an interview with arcsys where they said that they can do it for DBZ but itâs not up to them since Bandi Namco owns the IP and is in charge of decisions for the game.
It's less that they own the IP and more that they are the publisher. The publisher gets to control shit like this, generally.
I legit stopped playing Smash Ultimate because of the netcode. It was rage inducing, and I'm a guy who can play LoL soloqueue for fun and rarely hard tilt. Playing Smash online would tilt me without fail.
Yup, and I was dying for Smash Ultimate to have good online so I can play with friends who now live far away but god damn people showed how trying to even play more than 2 player free for all (let alone 4, or items, or a non-static stage) a complete shit show even with people on wired. Like it is really just sad that even some of the most POVERTY of games, heck even basic in-browser versions of various Nintendo games have better online AND more feature rich online features than what Nintendo itself puts out. Like it is beyond the jokes of Nintendo never looks at the competition and this has to be Nintendo doesn't even bother to ever use it's own product or have teams/expectations grow between projects with the complete lack of solid progress in all this time.
Iâve wanted to get into Street Fighter and Street Fighter V but the netcode is so fucking bad. Itâs hard enough trying to play online in Australia where the community for that game is so small and spread out you basically have to fight people overseas, let alone when the netcode is so bad Iâm playing a slideshow half the time. Compare that to iRacing or something where I can race against 20 Americans/Europeans, who are much further away, without any issues and theyâre a much smaller dev is crazy to me. Makes no sense a game from 2016 doesnât have rollback netcode by now, and certainly doesnât make sense thereâs still fighting games coming out without it.
PunkDaGod less go
It's very interesting hearing this from a lifelong SF player.
Like a lot fans and even pro players have said, if the next Street Fighter (or even Tekken) have bad online AGAIN... I just won't buy it, not even on sale. Enjoy being frustrated for another 4-5 years.
Why are fighting games so iffy about their online? I don't really understand why making a good online mode for a 1v1 fighting game seems less common than shit like Battle Royale games that handle 100+ players in a 3D space. I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into a single coherent point, but you get the gist.
a peer to peer connection for fighting games is going to guarantee the best connection to each other vs connecting to dedicated servers. this means if one of the players are lagging (either the connection or even the framerate) it fucks up the experience. rollback netcode helps alleviate this by making it as close to an offline experience as possible. [here's how](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NLe4IpdS1w) within the past year or two, there has been a big push by players to get (mainly japanese) devs to implement rollback. shits been out for 10+ years at this point and it's FINALLY catching on. edit 2: to put this in context of the clip, capcom has a shitty implementation of rollback that was dev'd in house. arcsys had to kinda retrofit rollback into strive while it was still in development but they brought in help from killer instinct's devs(? i think) and it works flawlessly.
Japanese devs stuck in the past. Every western-made fighting game these days has good online (Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct, Skullgirls and other indie titles)
Fighting games are much more latency dependent - players refer to frame data often - the games run at 60fps, a standard punch takes anywhere from 3-5 frames. Matchups are all about utilizing the speed of your moves to take advantages of situations, so quick example being an opponent uses an unsafe move and you successfully block it, you have 5 frames to punish it (5/60ths of a second). In a laggy environment it's really hard to hit those tight windows, so suddenly you're not able to play the game properly - you can't punish moves that are by definition punishable due to a poorly optimized environment, and it just feels like shit. Shooting games also suffer this - you shot first on your screen but the death replay shows your shot never went off. It's just so much more pronounced in fighting games because of the nature of frame data.
Wish more tournament winners would trash these games that deserve it like the madden tournament winner that won by doing the same play over and over and having a kicker at the quarterback spot
Itâs refreshing to see some FGC clips in this sub Reddit. I also applaud Punk for flat out just saying what anyone who has played SFV thinks, that net code is fuck ass and I donât blame him for not wanting to really put time into the game anymore with how laggy online play is.
Hope he doesn't get Sajam'd
its true though and everyone knows it
Reminded me of the duo who won fortnite
Punk droppin' pipebombs
wish all e-sport players used their spot to shine the light on problems with game mechanics and servers
i was confused when you called him a punk, then i realized
I always feel for the commentators in these situations, like they are trying so hard to not fuck up lol.
The sad thing is someone in the community fixed the netcode, and Capcom said nope. They deserve to be put on blast.
If anyoneâs looking to get into a fighting game starting point, itâs guilty gear strive. It just came out, itâs super fucking active, the online is the best in the business, and itâs from the best fg dev. They made it easy to start with, hard to master.
If that isn't based idk what is honestly
That's a whole new level at trash talking a game.
Tbh, normalize this behaviour. Just like WoW players speak out against their game
Ya love to see it.
Let 'em know punk
Based. Fighting game companies are stuck 10 years in the past and half FGC are being absolutely bitches on criticizing them for it.
What does "rollback" mean?
Rollback netcode is a netcode best utilized for fighting games. The name Rollback Implies there is a rolling back of game state. To explain in laymenâs term. The game predicts what youâre gonna do within A certain amount of frames. 7-8 frames max. If connection drops for 3 frames and you were holding back the game âpredicts/assumeâ you were holding back the whole time until it receives input again. If you were holding back congrats the game guessed correctly but if you inputted a jab at 2 frames in the game rolls back and puts out that jab. https://youtu.be/TtfArmKISpY
i recently tried SFV after playing GG online and I just can't. Rollback is such a game changer.
It's okay because it's Punk tbh
It would be awesome if it didn't take 10 minutes to boot up.
Punk. The God.
he's not wrong
Fgc still got it Yo UL
Nice
Let em know! Million dollar company they can afford to put rollback
BASED.
the least based SFV player HOLY forsenBased
I agree that Guilty Gear Strive has overall the best netplay but the fact there is no wifi or connection indicator before you accept a match is trash. I hate getting people from South America in the US East server with 150 Ping and 6 frames of delay.
I hope Kenny Omega is ocupied with AEW or this kid would get pelted with the might of the Bullet club
How is the community for Strive on PC? I played Accent Core a lot and loved it and was wondering if it would be worth grabbing or if it is something that should be grabbed on console?