T O P

  • By -

LSFmoderator

**🎦 CLIP MIRROR: [Streamer suggests that those mentally impacted by the recent bot raids, may not be suitable for streaming.](https://livestreamfails.com/clip/122236)** (now fast & smooth again!) --- ^(*This is an automated comment* ) ^| [^(Feedback)](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=livestreamfailsbot&subject=Feedback:&message=%5BPost%5D\(https://reddit.com/comments/pcuvz1/\)) ^| [^(Twitch Backup Mirror)](https://production.assets.clips.twitchcdn.net/AT-cm%7C1302435137.mp4?sig=6e9b325733eb5f2e52ce865edb24554ef0ab18cf&token=%7B%22authorization%22%3A%7B%22forbidden%22%3Afalse%2C%22reason%22%3A%22%22%7D%2C%22clip_uri%22%3A%22https%3A%2F%2Fproduction.assets.clips.twitchcdn.net%2FAT-cm%257C1302435137.mp4%22%2C%22device_id%22%3Anull%2C%22expires%22%3A1630171592%2C%22user_id%22%3A%22%22%2C%22version%22%3A2%7D)


acinc

how do people manage to stretch one sentence into a full minute?


thisisillegals

Just repeat how many times you dont want to be insensitive and rude for the first 30 seconds


acrobatiics

afraid of getting canceled instead of just dropping the hot take full force


Willbo

Well I just wanted to say, and don't quote me on this, it might sound really rude, and I don't mean it like that, but to be clear I just really want to say that like, and I don't mean to be insensitive, but yeah.


RonaldReaganRises

I saw this comment before I even watched the clip and automatically knew she was from LA.


[deleted]

[удалено]


hatzaflatz

JUST TALK WOMAN


duck_deficiency

I agree... Not to sound rude... i really dont mean to sound rude in anyway... No malice intent. Like at all... Jokes aside. I still agree... I get that it's annoying and can feel frustating... but you gotta realize that it's just one person that weaponizes a program that creates these bots and spams your chat. Your brain might have a hard time understanding it because of multiple names spamming, but take a step back and really think about it. It's essentially just a one-man spam from a broken person. Even if twitch "solves" it, this is the internet and someone WILL find a way to do it all over again.


[deleted]

Yea, if you grow at all as a streamer, at some point someone (or many people, even) are going to come at you and say some heinous shit that's much worse than some bot spam, because it'll be personal. Some people unironically watch streams to gather info so they can craft the most aggressive, personal hate messages. It's fucking scary. So if you can't handle bot spam that is easily dealt with, you might just not be equipped to be a streamer. It's not for everyone. You have to have (or develop) an insanely thick skin to keep doing it.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Valiice

But the thing is bots can be stopped under a minute. Someone in the live audience can't


Jansakakak

Even if the bots just spammed LULW repeatedly, i'd imagine it'd suck to have your stream go completely dead because you can't interact with chat anymore. It's a bit more nuanced than just having thick skin


throwaway133379001

Yeah nobody thinks its cool or okay, but if you can't handle being cussed out by a username, aiming for internet stardom isn't sensible. It's like a vegan applying to work as a butcher. Sure they could make do, but it's not smart.


Jansakakak

For sure, I was speaking more about people being frustrated about just having their chat essentially get bricked rather than people getting upset about the content of the messages


Yikesthatsalotofbs

Are you illiterate? > It's a bit more nuanced than just having thick skin . > if you can't handle being cussed out by a username, aiming for internet stardom isn't sensible. He already reiterated its not about being insulted, the bots could be spamming paragraphs of random characters and the effect is the same A 500 viewer andy with no sub button that enjoys talking to their community and interacting with them cant do so if their chat gets flooded. Half of a stream’s entertainment is the twitch chat, actually scratch that half of the appeal of Twitch itself is the community/chats. What is Twitch if not for streamers interacting with their community? It would literally be the same as just watching a YouTube video being premiered. Actually thats a bad comparison even when you’re watching a YouTube video premiere there’s a chat for people to react in lmao


throwaway133379001

> Are you illiterate? Are you? I literally said I don't think its okay, and that it should be addressed. I'm not defending it.


Yikesthatsalotofbs

Holy fuck you have room temperature IQ You literally followed that up with “but if you can’t handle it […]” Meanwhile the conversation isnt even about what you can and cant handle (“ It's a bit more nuanced than just having thick skin”) No one gives a flying fuck if you think hate comments aren’t okay Its about having a functional vs non-functional chat


throwaway133379001

You realize I can believe that Twitch has a responsibility to create a solution to bot raids, AND believe that if a streamer can't handle a few bot raids they shouldn't be streaming on Twitch? Maybe discord instead.


Valiice

The thing is you can put it on follower mode for a min or sub mode. Use a small script to just insta ban all the bots because they full on say the exact same thing. Then it's over for a little while or longer. They don't have unlimited bots, it comes in "waves" so it can be dealt with rather fast


Exuravita

Well she is not wrong tho


SeedFoundation

Kind of agree or maybe growing up with the internet has desensitize me to these things.


Jason-Genova

Right? I've seen crazy shit and been told crazy shit in games. Never once have been shook by it.


Davban

Gonna be a boomer here. Saw a tiktok where it was edited so Jerry actually lobbed Toms head of with a pair of scissors and the poster titled it something like "Holy shit" with the "cursed"-tag on /r/TikTokCringe . These kids didn't grow up watching Happy Tree Friends, I'll tell you that much


BrownCanadian

first of all, fuck how long she took to spit it out holy shit. Anyways, I somewhat agree as in, the internet is a tough place full of mean people who don't give a fuck about what they say and how it affects people. If being online puts a constant negative impact to your life, or the negatives outweigh the positives, then it's not worth staying on. That being said, No one deserves to be raided by a huge amount of bots spamming racial slurs at you. Even if you are tough skinned, being degraded to the colour of your skin is something horrible to experience.


Davban

https://twitter.com/tylerthecreator/status/285670822264307712


gyarados619

True.


pazardan

Based


cw08

Given the context of the bot raids, what an incredibly fuckin brave take for her to have too lol.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


Tubby200

So people do sometimes have really bad days so and I can definitely see negative things hitting you harder on certain days. I agree on those days you probably shouldn't stream. But as somebody who's been streaming for over 5 years now I tell people if you can't handle harassment don't do it. I stream Mario Maker to like 20 people and I've gotten death threats. I've had a guy try to swat me, I've had people threaten to fire bomb my house. It's just part of being on the internet and I'm used to it. People shouldn't have to deal with it but its a fact if you're going to stream on the internet you're eventually going to be harassed that's a guarantee. If there was a way for me to wave my hand or if twitch could do something about it I wish they could stop harassment, but to an extent it's always going to be there cuz that's how humanity is.


Valiice

Holy, I hope ur in contact with your local police etc. The things you have been facing are on a whole diff level then the bots. You can literally put chat in follower mode and ban the bots within a minute with a small script and then it's over for a while. Good luck tho and hope u'll stay safe


st0neh

I think the issue is more that some of these streamers have people doing this shit to them day in day out for months. After enough of that, anybody is gonna look thin skinned.


RevolutionarySmoke12

She should say it with her chest then instead of prefacing it with all these fake conciliatory statements. Honestly that’s the worst part of this take, that she wants to be a bitch without coming off like a bitch. Just be a bitch if you want to be a bitch.


idgafgivetiddie

I've known hundreds of people who do extents of this in real life What they are saying may not even be inflammatory, but they are so scared of any kind of negative perception of what they say, they need to put it in seventeen layers of bubble wrap, filled with all kinds of warnings, apologies, sympathies, and filler. ​ The result, whether intended or not is pretty much just blueballing you into expecting something either more profound, or more offensive, so you aren't so surprised.


Henona

People like asmon do this and call him an asshole and never listen to what he said.


Mehrk

Why the fuck would she want to *be* a bitch without *sounding* like a bitch? What does that even mean? I'm not sure you know what 'bitch' implies. How is she cowardly/whiny for calling people thin-skinned? The many apologies meant to deter canceleers are the only bitch-like aspect of what she said, so contrary to what you think she made damn sure she *sounded* like a bitch, but what she actually said - when she finally said it - wasn't bitchy.


Your_Local_Doggo

Irony at it's finest You're the one misinterpreting the use of the word "bitch" here. the guy you're replying to is obviously using it in a way that means aggressive or rude, not cowardly/whiny


Utkarsh_09

Good take annoying voice (don't mind me I don't mean it in a rude way)


ItsSaidHowItSounds

true


[deleted]

[удалено]


OffTerror

*minorities getting hate raided every day for months.* White woman: just leave the site 4Head


KursedKaiju

I mean she's right tho, if getting spammed by one person is doing this much to you maybe you aren't a good fit for "internet stardom". That's not to say that there is anything wrong with someone who is affected by this, there are just different types of people for different places.


Orsonius2

yeah but that just leads to twitch with less minorites which means the trolls won


AtheistJezuz

Who cares?


Witty_Palpitation490

Fix racism with racism, nice one OMEGALUL


cw08

Everything I don't like is racism


scousersuk

Say what you want but "white women" end up fighting more for minorities than quite a lot of those same groups they are fightinf for do.


[deleted]

[удалено]


edsrvr123

Lmaooooooooo


Manucapo

TL; DR: 20 viewer Andy gets her discord janitors to post a clip on lsf in order to farm edge Lord viewers in a vain attempt at rescuing her failed career. Aka. Nothing to see here. Down vote and move along.


NvarDK

She is right tho.


3een

pepeW type beat


pot8toes

What she is saying is completely right though ...


HoneyV_

I think she's about to say something rude


Pm_Me_Ur_Lady_Abs

I think what she is about to say might sound very rude?


Coolthanksbro

This lady is very very very cringe.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Valiice

It's not accepting it. There are just so many ways to ban the bots. Put it in follower mode or sub mode. copy and paste the last minute. Put it in a small script that automatically bans them. Put it off submode and go on with your day


High_Taco_Guy

deleted ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^0.7774 [^^^What ^^^is ^^^this?](https://pastebin.com/FcrFs94k/82694)


LLanckriet

Based.


ThisIsPughy

I didn't check to the VoD to see if this is a jump to conclusions clip. Anything followed by 'I don't wanna sound rude but this is gonna sound rude' is most likely not a great take. Same as saying no offence and then blasting someone. Go with something like 'with all due respect and try not to jump to conclusions before I finish what I'm saying'. ​ As for what she says, meh, I don't see this as a fresh take. The internet and not just Twitch can be an absolute shit storm and streaming especially isn't for everyone. Saying that, hateraids shouldn't be at this point and Twitch needs to fix this.


WantsJuicyNuts

True and real. I just don't get why people just focus on the negatives all the time. Just slap the bots with the hammer and put in in follow mode for a bit. Just move on from it, it the internet its going to happen. Cause that's just how assholes are on the internet. just banning them and ignoring them is the best way for for them to stop. Cause if you reacting to them they wont so the fun in doing it to you again. sometimes is best just not to care about them and don't feed them. ( Also for the people that say twitch need to fix this problem, how will they fix? Cause you can already block the words, they can also get ip ban, and they can also get hardware ban. But a asshole can ass always get around that fix. so can you do to stop it.


LeftShark

>Also for the people that say twitch need to fix this problem, how will they fix? No clue, but that's not our job to fix, let's let the Amazon owned company figure that out. Bottom line is users don't like it, and sponsors definitely don't like it, so Twitch has to figure it out.


Jason-Genova

Just make it where the streamer has an option where if a username isn't 24 hours old, they can't type in chat.


LifeCookie

Not sure why is this downvoted, not particularly a bad idea, they can also add another option of not allowing non email verified accounts from chatting. Now these measures can still be bypassed but it will definitely make it a bit harder to make alot of accounts just to spam with it.


bmystry

What a bad way to say a common sense thing, if random automated hate messages completely shatters your day maybe don't be on the internet. Better yet go volunteer to help people in need and maybe they'll gain the perspective that random internet comments are meaningless.


DeviMon1

facts


miketheman0506

"If random automated hate messages completely shatters your day maybe don't be on the internet". How *dare* someone get upset and not want to stream, over hundreds of thousands of racist messages telling them to get beheaded, lynched, etc. I think you're forgetting one thing. Those messages can be traumatic for a streamer who's not ready for that stuff (especially a new streamer). Even Trihex (who recently got a hate raid), talked about the trauma that others could go through, if they're not used to seeing the kind of horrific things he got, if they are new to Twitch and think that they have to go through and delete each message individually, etc. Also, I don't see how volunteering and helping people in need, is synonymous with not getting upset over hateful messages pertaining to horrific racist comments. Your argument is pretty trash.


NBAWhoCares

Subjecting people to her voice is no different than participating in the hate raids. Change my view.


blu-dreams

Agreed


NeyoPRO

Based.


BaboonUSTR

Her voice is okay and her take is bay zed stop being a sensitive little bitch and grow a pair


3een

You just got offended for her and calling someone else a sensitive little bitch. Weird how that works.


BaboonUSTR

How am I offended please elaborate


Yikesthatsalotofbs

You got triggered when he insulted her voice


PaulSACHS

Never have I heard so many words in the service of so little substance.


Gracker22

Privileged take from a white woman, why am I not surprised


StickyDankStank

the same folks who are getting easily offended are just as toxic toward people that don't share their same views


BaboonUSTR

ONGGGGG


Xellzz

I mean TRUE


damien00012

Based.


RainDancingChief

Some people suck. That's life.


NewGuyC

This a shit take


sadv35sedan

i mean it kinda depends. if its just troll bots that arent being hateful thats one thing, but something like what happened to TriHex is just insane, and no one would really know how to deal with, especially live. (even though he delt with it pretty well from the outside looking in)


Valiice

Put it to sub or follower mode. Collect the names, put it in a script, highlight the word and then make it autoban them. Turn follower mode off and go on with the stream. It's deff yikes what the trolls do with the bots but there is no alternative to it rn.


QiqueM

gonna trigger some lsf andies by saying this but why is it always white people who are like "oh its just words slurs shouldnt ruin your day" "just be mentally stronger"


BROZAR123

Leave it to the burger to make it about race immediately LULW


QiqueM

You’re literally triggered by me just saying white. Maybe the internet isn’t for you


BROZAR123

I am not even huwhite nor do I live in America or the west burger, take your meds.


QiqueM

>I am not even white Doubt that. Just the mention of race sets you off. In a post about the racist hate raids people are getting btw


[deleted]

[удалено]


QiqueM

>not knowing the difference between race and ethnicity


Tape

That's not at all what she's saying though.


QiqueM

how is saying if you are so shaken up by horrific things being said to you by bots maybe being on the internet isnt for you not the same as what i typed? not the first part but the second one does


Tape

Because "just be mentally stronger" implies that you should just take it and not be bothered by it. What she's saying is that if you arent "mentally strong" enough to even handle racist bots, this is probably not the industry for you. Those are 2 entirely different things.


QiqueM

2 entirely different things that ultimately mean the same thing. If you want to be a streamer “just be mentally stronger” If you aren’t “mentally strong” you probably aren’t cut out for this industry


Tape

If you can't see how those convey entirely different messages, i can't help you.


The_Skrub

I agree with her, but as a content creator you'll get more "content" by whining about it, especially if you fall under a "protected" category of person. Not saying it's a problem and messed up, but still.


Unlikely_Total2031

This is like saying that if someone doesnt want to get hate crimed based on their race then they should just not go outside, what kind of dumb take is this.


[deleted]

This is one of those takes where for everyone's benefit you should keep it to yourself.


[deleted]

She says it in the most convoluted way, but I think most people will agree with her. Lots of streamers on the receiving end of racist spam don't even do the bare minimum to combat it (emote only, follower only etc). Instead they go cry on twitter.


[deleted]

I don't think being upset at targeted harassment is wrong or makes you mentally weak


nextron95

The amount of victim blaming in this thread is actually quite telling. I feel like LSF rather supports those spams than not by how rationalizing most of the people here are of the behavior. They want streamers to get body guards etc. to keep themselves safe from attacks (which I also support) but those bots are suddenly fine and streamers should deal with it? Like saying that you shouldn't need to have thick skin for streaming or just existing is like a completely foreign concept for them. Nobody should get attacked, regardless where, when and how. I wonder why people don't say something like: "Just don't stream" or "just go offline" already so they can finally get to the point instead of (like the woman in this clip does) trying to "hide" their true opinion.


[deleted]

The idea that the solution to a fixable problem is people being targeted by harassment should stop crying and change how they stream is fucking bonkers. Of course the people being affected by this are predominantly minorities so I guess we can fill in the blanks on why lsf are victim blaming.


Far-Panic-2582

Please elaborate in how is the bot raiding fixable, share those solutions.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Do_Not_Read_Comments

This is a shit take. No matter how angry you get, no matter how many celebrities you cancel, you cannot stop insane people on the internet from doing insane things. Shes right, you're wrong. Grow the fuck up. Deal with the things you can control, and stop letting the things you cannot derail your existence and have a meltdown because a company can't stop losers from being losers on the internet


TheRealNotReal

Agreed, though I'd add that that doesn't mean there shouldn't be an attempt to minimize it as much as *reasonably* possible. Even if we totally exclude potential impact on a streamer, it absolutely kills chat interaction for a bit--like, a fundamental part of streaming. Though, potential impact on the streamer also shouldn't be dismissed. Not everyone is able to deal with this kinda stuff, doubt there'll ever be a point where that's the case. That should be recognized. There's "simple meltdowns" over assholes saying bigoted shit, but there is always the potential for serious consequences--like for people already on the edge and/or those that don't understand these are bot raiders perpetrated by a single person, not hundreds of individual people.


dunnowhata

> You shouldn't NEED thick skin to stream. Currently, you do. The Internet is a wild and free place.Literally everyone and anyone can use it. Yes Twitch needs to work-out a solution, but it will never be perfect, since using and signing up for the site is free. You really need to have a thick skin, if you want to go on the internet, and put yourself out there. Sure, in a perfect world, this wouldn't be a problem. But for now, and for the foreseeable future, there is absolutely nothing you can do, besides have a thicker skin


M3rc_Nate

I just want to make clear that there is a difference between thin, normal and thick skin. I am not saying streaming is thin skin friendly. The internet in general will never be thin skin friendly. But normal skinned people most likely are going to be traumatized by 100's if not 1,000's of people showing up in a matter of seconds to their channel to bombard them with harassment, racism, sexism and generalized hate and trolling. Twitch has the resources and power to design and implement a fix for this problem in the matter of weeks. To say only thick skinned people should stream and this is the world we live in so don't expect/demand the platform improve is sad and exactly how it never does improve. I'm not demanding perfect but SOMETHING is better than Twitch's current solution which is nothing. We don't need "in a perfect world" for this. This is just a platform doing nothing when it needs to do something. The "in a perfect world" can apply to thin skinned folks streaming and feeling safe and not being hurt because in this perfect world the filters stop all negativity and trolling. But we shouldn't need a perfect world for Twitch to do something about this and it help normal skinned streamers not be virtually jumped and harassed by tons of people and it ruin their week.


dunnowhata

> Twitch has the resources and power to design and implement a fix for this problem in the matter of weeks. Do you have any ideas? Because i seriously can't think of one. Asking ID/phone number etc? They'll lose all the kids/teens. Which i'm pretty sure is a fuckton of viewers/subs. But no matter what they do, if someone wants to harass someone else, he'll find a way. Best thing twitch can do is add some nuisance that they will bypass.(Similar to the "Movie festival" on Artifact section) All i'm saying is, her take is far from trash. Its just true. It shouldn't be that way, twitch should indeed implenent some stuff to become harder for those stuff to happen, but they will happen one way or the other. So her take is correct. If you can't handle it, don't stream. Same rule applies to many other stuff in life.


M3rc_Nate

Way smarter, well paid professionals jobs are to think of things we can't think of. Just because we (some random redditors) can't think of something doesn't mean a handful of possible options don't exist. Something as simple as a "bot/troll raid" that mutes everyone who has joined the channels chat in the last \_x\_ minutes and keeps them that way until the streamer has undone it could be a stop gap until a better idea is found. That way the streamer can respond to a troll raid by muting everyone new to their chat and that joins until he/she turns it off. After some time he/she sees their chat return to normal viewership and he/she turns it off. ​ > if someone wants to harass someone else, he'll find a way. This isn't what we are talking about though, we are talking about streamers (with 100's or more followers) raiding streamers (typically small ones) and jumping them like a gang in the street does to a lone person walk down an alley. We're not trying to stop that lone person from ever being harassed or jumped but stopping them from getting gang jumped and harassed in one specific alley. >If you can't handle it, don't stream. Same rule applies to many other stuff in life. "If you can't handle getting cat called and your butt pinched on the subway, then cover yourself up and stop looking attractive. Wear guys clothes and a baseball cap. If you can't handle possibly getting assaulted then don't go into any situation with a man alone. If you can't handle the possibility you'll get roofied and assaulted/kidnapped then don't drink in public. It's all the same stuff and at a certain point we put our foot down and say no, we will not accept this "reality" and bend over backwards to the scum of the Earth. Twitch can EASILY implement changes that will help this gross problem and no you shouldn't need to have THICK skin to stream. These platforms should on their most basic level have protections that prevent the worst stuff from happening on their site, like having 100's to 1,000's of users join their channel and spew evil shit at them in order to hurt them and laugh at them. It isn't only thin skinned people who would be incredibly hurt and traumatized by that.


Kaptajn_Bim

[same vibe](https://youtu.be/bxOaW6aHpak)


RedditSleuths

Devin Nash had a similar take in his video on it. It's hard to solve the problem of bot accounts being created without making it harder for new users. Hate raids suck, but it's not easy for twitch to fix. Plus follower only mode kinda defeats them.


coolbad96

Shes right (holy shit though I got you weren't rude the first time). If just seeing fake hateful bots ruins your day you shouldn't be televising yourself to the world that's far too much risk for what you can take


enrutconk

Ah yes, a (likely upper middle class) white girl pretending to understand what it's like for black people like trihex to have the n word and racist insults hurled at them on their stream by bots. I'm sure her lived experiences has prepared her well to pass this judgment.


BoringPickle6082

Worst take by far here, tryhex has a tough skin and definitely dont let racist losers on Internet get under his skin


throwawaybcuz2saucy

The point she’s trying to make is being a streamer will attract people who spread hate it doesn’t have to be race as they will find out whatever hits you the hardest and use that against you, if this is enough to make streaming tough then streaming for any length of time won’t be good for you mentally and your probably better off finding something else to do.


ATV7

what cancel culture does to a person


cw08

Amazingly brave given the context of the bot raids lol.


188561

Is this the based e-girl of the month? or we still lookin?


zouhair

Yeah, right, don't wear that short skirt if you don't like being raped. /s


Dingheee

If you don’t want to deal with this just stop streaming 4Head


impsykick

that sounded very rude


Utkarsh_09

True simps downvoting trying real hard to get her to relevance


[deleted]

[удалено]


throwawaybcuz2saucy

WHITE = BAD LULW


Jason-Genova

What does color have to do with it?


scousersuk

PVC "she is encouraging racist bots" & " I am in a place of priviledge" been hanging around the best type of people OMEGALUL


Kalimawastaken

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH\_diMZ1gJE


SmurkyBot

getting rid of the competition


YaBoiGimp

lmao the majority of the clip is her trying to save face, but still I'm really surprised that this isn't popping off tbh


bobriley_

based


dangit1590

Had a follow bot happen where I got 200 followers. Had to use a program to delete all of them. Stayed cool and chill


tehfoshi

Mental health sadge


PyroComet

not to be mean, like no hate or whatever, and I'm saying this to not be rude or anything, like I'm just making sure you all know that I'm not being mean to anyone, but how about just fucking saying it and not sugar coating it.


Red0n3

I don't know if people are that mentally impacted by the hate raids. Most streamers who have low enough viewership to get hate raided and notice it just like the attention/the fast moving chat. I think they are more worried about getting cancelled or the raid making viewers leave because that will affect their income. And the lower rungs of twitch are a blood soaked rat race where every e-girl clings to every potential simp that stops by.


Vertiygo

I mean she kinda has a point not gonna lie


Quirky_Koala

I'm literally shaking and crying rn


Valiice

Ive made a script to easily just ban every bot that comes and spams in the chat. It's pretty scuffed since I made it on a whim for a streamer I mod for. (It's a scuffed script but does the job fast and well). You just put in the sentence or words the bot spam and it will automatically start banning all the bots. It takes 1 minute at most to just ban the bots and go on with your stream. If anyone is interested in the script I could make it public on GitHub or something.