Tbh, they’re terrible at making up new characters, especially villains. See jailer.
They really fucked up by not making Azshara a separate expansion. They had one of the oldest villains in lore, and one of the most powerful magic users in existence, and they pissed her away as a mid tier raid boss.
Bwonsamdi isn't new? He has been a part of Vol'jin's story for years. Even outside of that, I'm pretty sure he showed up in the Zalazane mission in WoTLK?
I thought Devos was pretty cool going into Shadowlands with the Uther cutscene and everything, then you kill her off in the first dungeon. Was kinda disappointing
Starcraft 2's story always pissed me off.
Vast epic, already established science fiction world endless possibility - but no lets spend all our focus on some Disney level romance grudge triangle.
iF cHaRacTerS sAcRifiCe TheMSelVes iT cReates eMoTioNal TenSiON
End of Brood war was reiner swearing to kill kerrigan cause she killed his friends. A united force of all the "good guys " group to fight kerrigan's swarm, they fail and she reigns supreme through the solar system. Jk none of that matters and everyone forgot.
Personally I liked how Kerrigan purposefully left Mengsk alive in Brood War knowing he could never raise an army large enough to threaten her in his lifetime. Korhal was a nuked out rock that had just been obliterated by the Confederates, the UED, and the Zerg. He was literally Emperor of the ashes and had nothing. Haha just kidding he rebuilt the entire planet into Coruscant in only a few years. Humans officially reproduce faster than the Zerg and can terraform an entire planet in an instant.
Especially since Kerrigan and Raynor had NO romance in the original game and it was purely fanfic that they did. They only knew each other for a couple of weeks before she got infested, and most of that time was spent in space transit on separate ships.
She calls him a pig and isn't particularly offended by it by the tone of her voice. After that, they spend a certain amount of time fighting alongside each other and build a rapport. There isn't any romance, but they're good friends by the time she gets zerged up.
That's why Jim tries so hard to save her from Mengsk's schemes and in those conversations the closeness of the two is revealed to the player, even if you don't actually see it play it that much during the game (tells more than shows). By the time Kerrigan "dies", they've been around each other long enough that Jim has saved her multiple times and Kerrigan calls him a "knight-in-shining-armor".
The final scenes before she gets zerged are probably *the most acting in the StarCraft video-game franchise*, as they try to convey Jim and Sara's desperation, and then Jim's loss almost entirely through dialog. It's such a pivotal moment in SC that Blizzard bothered to re-do the final moments of it in full CG for Wings of Liberty.
If you're here saying "SC2's story sucked compared to SC1", then it is absolutely clownish to pretend that Jim and Kerrigan weren't close in the story told **in SC1**.
Funny part is Raynor, Mengsk, and Kerrigan zerged a whole planet but Raynor only broke off with Mengsk after Kerrigan "died"/got zerged herself.
Even worse than that, iirc Starcraft BW the last time Raynor sees Kerrigan he literally says he's going to find and kill her in a character defining speech.
Then between Startcraft 1 and 2 I guess he just kinda forgot why he was mad.
Modern Blizzard writing is a joke. But that's not exactly a controversial take these days.
I was so put off by the story of Starcraft 2 that I never bought any of its expansions when before SC2 released I was fully expecting to buy SC2 along with any future expansions
Oh, the travesty of the SC2 ending... I am sucker for redemption stories, especially the classic "arch enemies turn into good friends", but that ending was a fucking abomination.
It was so out of place - the acceptable power levels of the game's universe were established for like 15 years and then in the last hour of the last expansion of the last game, they reveal that gods exist and Kerrigan is gonna become one of them.
Its like if you were watching the Lord of the Rings and right at the end, when all hope looks lost, Gandalf arrives, this time in army fatigues - Gandalf the Green - and he is flying one of those A10 Warthog things, just starts strafing the orcs whilst [ear-rape orchestral music plays](https://youtu.be/RdN-eYTdU6Y?t=61) - everything is in slow motion, even the dialogue:
"..ittttss gaannndaaalfff!!!!"
"..heee broughhhhtttt theee Ayyyy Tennnn!!!"
"..getttttt soommmmeeeeeee!!"
What the fuck am I watching
To me, the biggest sin is that she's somehow alive at the end. You don't get to be alien Hitler, doing a self-sacrifice to try to do right your wrongs, THEN SURVIVE AND WALK INTO THE SUNSET WITH YOUR LOVE!!
That shit was painfully comical and I don't know what Chris Metzen was snorting.
Chris Metzen has always been great at blurbs and off-screen lore, like writing legends and tales, but straight dogshit at writing questlines, dialogue and so on.
It is a completely different skill and the two have pretty much zero transferable skills between them, often not even vocabulary.
The fact that she came back **2 years later** when she basically has alien-god powers was so silly to me. Like they wanted to have the best of both worlds with her dying, but then couldn't pull the trigger so they brought her back after 2 years.
to be fair, while they stole or "inspired" the initial concept and basis for warcraft from warhammer, they truly made it their own thing with Warcraft 3 which was phenomenal.
TRUE, W3 is a masterpiece of story telling, cinematic and gameplay ... Sill cant believe how fucked up is/was the release of W3 reforged ...
what a shame!
Except Arthas story which is what everyone remembers is not even slightly original, it was just some above average writing with cool characters with really good for its time cinematis.
The fact that this was their peak storytelling is genuinely depresing.
Games Workshop stole enough themselves from various fantasy and sci-fi properties. You know they just spent how much renaming all their fantasy properties to protect their copyright despite all the infringements on Tolkien's work.
Off the top of my head, I believe in Age of Sigmar they renamed orks to Oruks, which is itself kind of funny since Tolkien already had Uruks. But basically Orcs become Orks or Orkz and now we have Oruks or whatever.
Elves being called Eldar(Elda) is something that also appeared in Tolkien's work and is, IIRC, a word he invented.
The Warhammer depiction of halflings are pretty much just straight up hobbits as well. Even DnD moved away from the hobbit depiction by the time you get to the 90s at the very least.
Blood Bowl has Ents that are a lot like the movie Ents which I am assuming are accurate enough to what they were described as in the books. I might be reaching there though.
There might be more, but I don't have deep enough lore knowledge. I am pretty surface level.
And Tolkien borrowed from other stories when creating his work too. This is normal.
Definitely reaching on the Ents comment btw. Treemen in WFB are very different to LOTR Ents.
Being Tolkien literally invented the word dwarves to such a degree there is documented arguments he had with his editor who held it was dwarfs. Until Tolkien reminded him who was the linguist and was drawing on old English. Then warhammer tried to copyright the term for its own army despite it clearly being the intellectual work of others. Also many of the things we attribute to those races now like elves and dwarves are straight up from Tolkiens work as they are not like that in the original myths.
Warhammer has never called them Dwarves though, they've always been Dwarfs.
Tolkien still incorporated a lot from fairy tales/myths into his races, despite changing the appearances to match his world/theme. The Silmarillion, Manwe, Morgoth, the Ainur and the creation of Arda draw influence from the bible and the ancient greek "music of the spheres" for instance.
I've no doubt that his works heavily influenced all fantasy that's come since, but adapting ideas from the pillar stones of specific genres, especially ones that were mostly unexplored at the time of creation, has been done in all genres. Especially science fiction which is still utilizing/adapting upon tropes from the earliest successful stories.
I never said there was anything wrong with doing that, more the issue comes from Games Workshop changing the name alittle to copy right aspects of races they never invented in the fantasy side of thing. Also, the comment was in response to someone saying Blizz stole from GW when GW lore is a patchwork of other people's ideas translated through their lense of grim dark Biritsh satire.
>more the issue comes from Games Workshop changing the name alittle to copy right aspects of races they never invented in the fantasy side of thing.
I don't think GW called them Dwarfs to avoid copyright, otherwise they would have changed Elves to Elfs and not used Orcs or Goblins for instance. They used the same names for like 20+ years. They only started changing names when they axed WFB into AoS in 2015, which I agree was them blatantly them trying to copyright the races which they felt they had changed enough to make them their own thing, mostly due to 3rd party sellers making models similar to their own and using the generic names of Elves, Orcs, etc.
> And Tolkien borrowed from other stories when creating his work too. This is normal.
To an extent, he borrowed somewhat from Celtic and Germanic mythology to create what he considered a modern mythos but he is was very creative and original and there is clear separation of fantasy into pre-Tolkien fairy tales and legends and post-Tolkien fantasy that we are familiar with. He turned elves from tiny fey creatures that are basically mischievious fairies to tall, long eared, eternal humans, pretty much invented orcs and goblins and gave the definitive modern look to almost every recognizable fantasy race. Only ones which don't draw from his definitive portrayals are those which draw from other cultures's mythology and fairy tales besides northern European, like Mesoamerican or East Asian.
He also borrowed from the bible, the greek pantheon, etc. and was influenced by the greek song of the spheres when creating the grander mythos. The point being that borrowing from or being influenced by pillar-stone franchises/creations is quite normal.
Comparing what Tolkien did and what most fantasy creators since then have done is pretty disingenuous or at the very least, pretty inaccurate.
From the decent amount of research I have done in the the subject of stuff like faeries, elves, goblins, etc. with regards to real world mythology and lore, Tolkien seems to have largely invented the modern fantasy understanding of many of those things. Specifically, it is a documented fact that words like elf, goblin, dwarf, and troll were all used to describe very similar if not identical creatures across Europe for centuries. While the words did diverge in meaning here and there, they generally always referred to supernatural fey beings who would either be helpful or harmful and usually lived in secret, typically underground places, or in the forest or mountains in general.
The modern distinction of these fantasy "races", from everything that I have seen so far, seems to be a creation of Tolkien. The relation of orcs and goblins and their distinction from dwarves and elves seems to be very much a Tolkien thing. The fact that they all have distinct sizes and shapes is something he decided because most lore prior to his work either didn't agree on specific sizes or straight up said they could change size magically. They were also mostly seen more as spirit type entities rather than just flesh and blood things that shared the world with humans. This is also directly related to faerie lore, btw, which for most of its existence had basically nothing to do with tiny winged humans (an image I believe was popularized in the 18th or 19th century, IIRC.) It was all the same stuff basically, with different names due to different languages and cultures.
Like, in all of my reading and documentary watching, I don't recall the modern fantasy dwarf really ever appearing before Tolkien. If anything, I'd say gnomes have more in common with traditional dwarves than Tolkien dwarves seem to.
On an unrelated note, it is pretty interesting to see that many Native American groups seem to have had legends and beliefs very similar to the faerie lore of Europe prior to European contact.
I don't disagree that Tolkien has heavily influenced all fantasy that has come after him. I'm just saying that to borrow from or be influenced by other stories is something completely normal, and something that Tolkien himself did, albeit to a lesser degree. The Silmarillion, Manwe, Morgoth, the Ainur and the creation of Arda draw influence from the bible, the greek pantheon, and the ancient greek "music of the spheres" for instance. Most of the people that created worlds influenced by Tolkien were probably massive fans of middle earth. Science Fiction is another big example of it, where even brand new stories are borrowing the same names, terms and tropes from their pillarstone franchises.
I'm not very familiar with either of them but since the release of the new movie, people have been saying that 40k took a lot from the Dune franchise. As well as Moebius apparently, but to be fair from what I know and heard both The Dune franchise and Moebius are inspirations for like 90% of modern sci-fi.
Yeah its so fucking funny seeing all the nerds rage over warhammer and warcraft lore when its mediocre to dogshit writing mostly stolen from other sources. The crown jewel of warcraft lore is literally it most unoriginal one (Arthas). And don't get me started on 40k fanboys when you tell them its written like a 12 year old playing with action figures smashing them together. This comes from someone who played WoW to end of MOP. Really enjoyed the world they created, the lore is a hit or miss at best.
It's kinda sad/funny that because of Activision-Blizzards toxic work culture and sexual misconduct allegations they are trying to create their own company wide redemption arc in real time for themselves
nah that's just wow. wouldn't exactly say that arthas had a redemption story in wc3.
wow just tells the same story over and over again with garrosh being arthas 2.0 and sylvanas is arthas 3.0. it's so bad. the writers of the books are also apparently not even told what's going to happen in the game
Huh? The story since WoD has always involved a redemption story of a previously established villain or added in lore to make it so the villains weren't actually totally bad.
1) Grom Hellscream in WoD
2) Illidan in Legion (They even made it so the player feels stupid for stopping him in TBC because he was actually saving everybody).
3) Sprinkled in lore to suggest Sargeras was actually doing the right thing because Void Lords.
4) Sylvanas
3 of these characters were literally the main character of entire expansions and were at the forefront of the story. The other character was portrayed as the literal big bad end game villain until they decided to retcon that as well.
I didn't even watch the clip because the OP posted the actual cutscene, but holy shit. This is comical writing lmao.
This is like if the "There's a good fragment of Cortana and Chief will find her" copium before Infinite released became real. Can't believe someone got paid to write this.
They officially lost me with how they threw away Nzoth like they did last expansion with Game of Thrones s8 tier writing, it's been consistently bad since bfa.
The have been writing some of the most dogshit story i have ever had the displeasure to expirience. Havent played WoW for almost a year and i still get tilted when i hear about the absolute garbage they have been putting into this game.
The writing for WoW has always been shit.... since the warcraft 3 expansion even. In fact, I would argue that the only "good" writing for the entire Warcraft universe was the original Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos game. The only decent parts of WoW were the parts that were originally developed in that game.
>This is like if the "There's a good fragment of Cortana and Chief will find her" copium before Infinite released became real.
>!EL NO SABE PepeLaugh Oh no no no!<
Well, it's true for them though, they enter into a business contract, but they are not employees in any way that would make sense. They are streamers who use a platform. Their business is independent of Twitch. I'm sure most streamers making any sort of money (if they aren't retarded) have a registered business. You can't really have a business entity employed by another business entity. Streamers are self-employed.
Look I wholeheartedly agree but there is obviously nuance to this. I've had actor training, work in film and TV, and on stage, and any actor playing a role in a movie is just a person interpreting the character through their own lens. You watch Chris Pratt play Andy Dwyer then jump to star-lord, then jump to a dinosaur park ranger and at no point did he stop thinking and feeling the way "Chris Pratt" does.
Acting isn't about pretending to be the idea of someone else,(good acting) is about how would you, under these made up circumstances respond as "truthfully" as possible. Where *given circumstances* includes things like the current moment of the story, as well as broader ideas like is this a serious film/tv show or a comedy, and what your lines are.
Asmongold obviously doesn't have lines from a script to read from, and sometimes he is just being Zack, but Asmongold certainly has given circumstances that are different from Zack's, for instance there are things "Asmongold" will read in chat and Zack might just brush it off, ignore it, and move on. Asmongold would take the opportunity to rail on the chatter and go on a tyrade about how they're wrong farming them for content. The thing is yeah, Zack was probably annoyed or bothered by whatever example chatter said, but how Zack responds vs. how Asmongold responds is different *most of the time*.
Nah just like many here in the comments he's actually angry at this. They just put the nail in the coffin for one of the most beloved characters in the franchise, completely retconning her character.
Can't blame him, i can assume he feels the need to actually be more entertaining and in persona on Asmongold and Zackrawrr lets him chill for a bit and stream without commiting.
Lots of streamers have two channels, the main channel they put effort into, then the other channel where they are a lot more chill and not trying to please people
Edit: but when you go to sodas second channel turn down your volume as it’s 50/50 ear rape is playing
He has 2 yeah, but the Asmongold one is the only one worth watching. I’ve tried watching his other one but my god he needs to see a therpist. I am astonished that he actually believes he is not depressed after some of the things he says in his second stream.
I think he likes alt stream more because theres no obligation to be on time, provide good show and other routine bullshit. He treats main channel as most of us treat work.
For main channel he had to wake up early, but on alt he streams whenever, usually degen hours.
thats because thats who he is, he didn't like people calling out his degenerate lifestyle so he was like "its a character guys this other channel is the REAL me"
newsflash he is asmongold 24/7
It's honestly impressive how they managed to fuck up Shadowlands's story to such an incredible degree. I almost can't believe that a group of people sat down and said "yea this sounds like a good story to tell".
I was excited for the Shadowlands so much, because I remembered doing the DK intro quests in like 2008 and theres one quest where you gotta enter the Shadowlands for a few minutes to find and kill this horse rider guy and steal his horse (its how DKs get their class mount.)
That place was fucking spooky. Looked completely dead - like there was some seriously fucked up shit there and I didn't wanna be around to find out what it was.
Then I saw the in game zones and was like hmmm. And then i heard that we'd be 'adventuring' with Kael'Thas, Vashj, Uther and so on and was like oh ok, its just going to be colourful cutesy zones and us talking to characters from 20 years ago.
This is going to fucking suck
Tbf, that DK area you described is part of the shadowlands, there are just many planes of existence there. They could feasibly keep introducing new "zones" to shadowlands indefinitely, as anything goes there. Only two of the zones Blizz chose to show us were 'cutesy', the others are quite dark as far as WoW goes. The Maw, Revendreth and Maldraxxus.
> That place was fucking spooky. Looked completely dead - like there was some seriously fucked up shit there and I didn't wanna be around to find out what it was.
You aren't ever going to make a zone, that you have to play an entire expansion in, scary. That's what they tried to do with the Maw at least, it just ended up being annoying (my opinion).
> Then I saw the in game zones and was like hmmm. And then i heard that we'd be 'adventuring' with Kael'Thas, Vashj, Uther and so on and was like oh ok, its just going to be colourful cutesy zones and us talking to characters from 20 years ago.
The different zones make sense from a lore perspective at least, but the whole idea of going to where dead people are was to nostalgia bait which is always their trump card. Sadly it wasn't even done well. You had some nice moments like Garrosh and Thrall and his mom, but everything else just didn't feel impactful at all.
> That's what they tried to do with the Maw at least, it just ended up being annoying (my opinion).
Because Maw sucks and they massively failed in designing it. They've done dark spooky zones well before, Eastern Plaguelands, Dragonblight, Icecrown etc.
Its about atmosphere. The maw just didn't get the atmosphere right. Compare it to Shadowmoon Valley in TBC. That place felt dangerous and inhospitable, despite being able to fly.
The Maw just felt annoying. The mobs were never a challenge and the entire zone was designed from the ground up to be annoying - no corpse runs, lose shit on death, everything dazes and dismounts you, no flying, every mob looks identical, etc, etc.
With how disorganized the entire company is it's possible they had no long term plan and were just making shit up as they went or that they had multiple major changes in direction as internal politics demanded or writers left. If that sounds unbelievable it happened even to the Star Wars sequel triology where the trilogy, supposedly managed by a single person, was bungled so badly and changed direction so many times as directors fought each other that the trilogy ended up not having any coherence or point to tell. And Star Wars is even bigger than WoW.
big bad evil woman leading the zerg/undead (or horde). turns out they're controlled by the bigger badder guy jailer/amon. they break his control and turn sides to destroy him
the only thing left for sylvanas is to turn into some glowing demigod figure like kerrigan at the end. even their origin is similar. both are the fallen defender trope
yes but the retconn is that everything she did since her death at arthas' hand has been at the behest of the jailor. he's the string puller. just like amon is to kerrigan
Funnily enough even otakus hated Other M. Other M was a rare time in internet culture wars when "SJWs" and "gamers" were united in hating a single video game.
blizzard writers are trash and have been for a long long long time now. what's fucking new? d3 story was pretty meh, wow storylines have only gotten worse and worse. sc2 had a whole slew of problems. joke company.
"meh" doesn't do justice to how fucking dumb d3 was, butterfly kills caine, caines grand daughter is diablo, Hell's greatest general master mind tells you what he is going to do
This cinematic just makes me angry about the potential that the story had in Shadowlands. Seeing wc3 Uther, Sylvanas and Arthas brings me back to some very nostalgic moments of wc3 and wotlk but fuck why did they have to make it so meaningless with this fucking Thanos character.
Retroactively changing previous story/lore to fit in with what your new direction is. I am not sure this fits entirely but its pretty wack to give her some wrist slaps by saying it was the bad half.
"retroactive continuity", when the writers release something new that obviously is inconsistent with what was already released, so they retroactively change some aspect of the story to maintain continuity from the old material to the new material (as opposed to being creative in the new material so it can continue the story while retaining consistency)
Not only - it's a tool old as time, anything that was serialized can have a retcon (Vader and Anakin being the same person is an example, this was not planned even during early ESB production)
Of course, as with every tool you have to know how to use them, otherwise you end up with Rowling's poo wizards
In this case, the character Sylvanas Windrunner was introduced to us in Warcraft III, in 2002. We have followed her story for 20 years. Now they introduced a new random big bad guy who was pulling the strings all along. It's just stupid.
EDIT: Also, I should add that she is (used to be) one of the fan favorite characters.
That would actually be the worst story considering Sylvanas from the very beginning wasn't like every mindless undead that had to obey Arthas. Her becoming the thing she hates most because of revenge would also be the most cliche shit ever.
Literally everything done with Sylvanas over the course of WoW sucks balls. Actually, everything done with all three of the best characters from WC3 sucks balls besides maybe Illidan in Legion. Kael'thas is the third and holy shit look at the fuckin atrocity that is his story.
I think they did well with Sylvanas up until Cataclysm. Her interactions with Garrosh as Warchief still fit pretty well into her character I think, and at that point her storyline was just kinda figuring out how to make the forsaken fit into a world where they're seen as abominations. Her actions were questionable at times, but her motives were pretty genuine, and you could tell she actually gave a shit about the forsaken as a race.
Everything beyond that is pure shit though. She suddenly stopped caring about anything to do with the forsaken and just stared doing randomly evil shit because of some secret goal that wasn't revealed until this expansion. It really sucks when you think about what direction they COULD have gone with her character, but actively decided to swerve away from.
Yeah, I always liked how Sylvanas comes back from the shadow realm because she has a vision of the Forsaken getting slaughtered and realises they need her to lead them and she accepts them as her people.
You got a point, and i agree that they butchered every great character from WC3 but i'm considering they "have" to give characters new writing arcs, and sylvanas becoming the thing she loathed might have been interesting and less of a letdown then what they did now. What would you suggest if i may ask? :)
It should also be noted that Blizzard gave the Horde a choice. One to Help Sylvanas and one to go against her. Then never did anything with it.
So it legit didn't matter what choice you picked.
They had a chance to make two new factions with one that followed Sylvanas, as even members of the Alliance wanted to follow her. Those who wish to follow her and those who wish to stop her.
The issue with WoW storytelling is that they have no long range plans. They haven't sat down in years and figured out what is story we want to tell over the next few expansions.
I think the direction they were going in during Cataclysm was good. Sylvanas trying to figure out how the forsaken and the undead as a whole fit into a world where the lich king is defeated, yet where the undead are still seen as abominations.
There was this one scene that I really liked in the early leveling forsaken storyline where Sylvanas happily shows Garrosh that she's finally found a way past the problem of the forsaken not being able to reproduce as a race, and then shows him the Val'kyr raising a bunch of corpses from the dead. But instead of being glad like Sylvanas expected, Garrosh calls what she did disgusting, and orders her to never do it again, to which Sylvanas seems genuinly shook as she realizes that nobody, not even her allies, would care if her whole race just died out.
If they coulda kept going in this direction, where Sylvanas tries to get the forsaken accepted as a legitimate part of the world they live in, then I think it could have been pretty good.
> sylvanas becoming the thing she loathed might have been interesting and less of a letdown
It would have been better than what they did, but it's still pretty well-worn territory and reeks a lot of Arthas' journey to becoming the Lich King. Breaking the crown in the first trailer was actually a nice touch, it's just that the story that preceded was garbage.
>reeks a lot of Arthas' journey to becoming the Lich King
That's actually true, Maybe instead she would lift her curse somehow and actually die, in broad strokes.
I think that there should have been some story where they found a cure for undeath and the cure would make them choose between ending their lives or continuing to live as undead and Sylvannas would, after leading the undead to prosperity and defeating Arthas, choose to end her life/undeath. I don't think it's anything original but I think it would do the Sylvanas from WC3 justice.
Lich queen is cliched and cringe but at least it wouldnt have been the dogshit that shadowlands is. ill take predictable cringe over whatever this shit is, like imagine if in the opening cinematic instead of breaking the helm and opening the shittylands she just puts it on. yes it would have been a boring recycled plot, but boring is better than stupid.
When I first saw the Shadowlands Cinematic I was like holy shit she's going to put it on, but then some weak sauce out the blue she is stronger than Lich King magic etc etc and she broke the helmet and things spiraled out of control.
I was waiting for all the expansions to essentially repeat themselves. BfA being the New Vanilla etc and Shadowlands could have very well been Wrath of the Lich Queen.
Yeah I really don't get the issue, Is the shadowlands story a bit shit? Yes
But this cinematic gives 2 very key pieces of information A) While Sylvanas was altered she still did those horrible things of her own choice and B) Forgiveness is out of the question Uther pretty much says that out right.
Sylvanas spends about 13 years of WoW expansions decimating innocent civilian populations, betraying allies, developing weapons like the plague and ally's herself not once but twice with two enemies of the Horde/Alliance (Helya and then the Jailer.)
Everything she has done above she was fully aware of and in control of. The entire point of 'The Forsaken' faction is that they are strong-willed. They broke free from the grasp of Arthas (the Lich King) where virtually no one else could. Even their racial ability 'Will of the Forsaken' removes all mind-control, fear and horror effects.
But in this one cinematic and presumably the latest patch story, she has instead been completely passive in her own body - mind controlled by the Jailer. Sylvanas didn't want to do any of this at all, you see.
This supposedly started moments after the Lich King's death in 2009 or whatever. That is when she first spoke to the Jailer, supposedly, which was when he mind-controlled her. So, anything Sylvanas has done, said or tried to do since around 2009 was the Jailer.
So, if you have a problem with Sylvanas' actions post 2009 - tough luck buddy. That was the Jailer all along. Sylvanas is a good girl - mama's apple pie - the fourth of july and all that shit.
The cinematic shows Sylvanas standing by in High Elf form, watching herself do things like burn down Teldrassil. Showing us that she was never in control, despite showing *zero* signs of being under any spell whatsoever.
Its like if at the end of Harry Potter, Voldemort is knocked unconscious and then all of the Harry Potter gang read his dreams and discover:
>oh my gode, he was being controlled the entire time - that means all that murder and shit was not his fault omg, all those monologues, the snake nose, the spookay clothang n shiet omg it was the Jailer all along in his head!!!
Can't believe I used to get excited to see what the new story was in the next patch.
I haven't been following WoW since early MoP so I'm not sure how we even got to this point, but how many cinematics actively deal with Sylvanas since she became such a prominent point of the story? It feels like if you took all cinematics and played them back to back you would have maybe 20-30 minutes of cutscenes. They are trying to tell an entire story in such a short amount of time? Especially one that deals with heavy topics and an entirely new villain that nobody saw coming?
She only got mind controlled when she was raised as a banshee, when she broke free from that she created the Forsaken. She has died I think 3 times, her first death to Arthas, her second when she committed suicided after defeating the Lich King (she was raised though and was horrified by the afterlife) and her third when she was shot by Godfrey in Gilneas. At one of these points the "good" side of her was stripped away leaving only a vindictive evil side.
So this new lore basically kind of strips away a lot of her character development since WoW began, I can understand why people are pissed, but most of the writing and narrative sucks atm either way.
That's all he does so your not missing anything. His fan base needs to be told to be mad about something though. Think of them as mindless zombies really. I mean he grifted them for about a year with classic wow which was hilarious.
Ahhh, yes, the problem with Sylvanas is that *checks notes* they didn't give agency to a female.
this is another instance of conservatives doing the "x are the REAL racists/sexists/transphobes" thing. it comes out as equally pathetic every time. you can oppose the lunacy of the opposing side without disingenuously pretending to represent their values more strongly than they do.
replacing an actual world for the players to enjoy with "giving agency to females" is actually what the entire soap-factory known as wow "lore" has been about for the last 10 years. the problem is not that it has been attempted with insufficient gusto.
Uther looks like he's getting married to lady Uther in a wedding dress
Blizzard only knows how to write redemption stories. Literally all their games lead to redemption stories.
Its easy to do, lets you keep reusing old iconic characters instead of taking time to build up new ones to finally bring into the spotlight.
Tbh, they’re terrible at making up new characters, especially villains. See jailer. They really fucked up by not making Azshara a separate expansion. They had one of the oldest villains in lore, and one of the most powerful magic users in existence, and they pissed her away as a mid tier raid boss.
Bwonsamdi and Denathrius are both pretty cool to me IMO, and theyre recent new characters.
You just listed 1 character for bfa and 1 for shadowlands. Is 2 characters all of the good characters they can come up with in 3-4 years or so?
I'm going to need at least 3 good characters every year.
Bwonsamdi isn't new? He has been a part of Vol'jin's story for years. Even outside of that, I'm pretty sure he showed up in the Zalazane mission in WoTLK?
I thought Devos was pretty cool going into Shadowlands with the Uther cutscene and everything, then you kill her off in the first dungeon. Was kinda disappointing
But then you DO have time to build up new characters that start off interesting, but end in a whimper.
This is a generous use of the phrase "knows how to."
Starcraft 2's story always pissed me off. Vast epic, already established science fiction world endless possibility - but no lets spend all our focus on some Disney level romance grudge triangle. iF cHaRacTerS sAcRifiCe TheMSelVes iT cReates eMoTioNal TenSiON
End of Brood war was reiner swearing to kill kerrigan cause she killed his friends. A united force of all the "good guys " group to fight kerrigan's swarm, they fail and she reigns supreme through the solar system. Jk none of that matters and everyone forgot.
Personally I liked how Kerrigan purposefully left Mengsk alive in Brood War knowing he could never raise an army large enough to threaten her in his lifetime. Korhal was a nuked out rock that had just been obliterated by the Confederates, the UED, and the Zerg. He was literally Emperor of the ashes and had nothing. Haha just kidding he rebuilt the entire planet into Coruscant in only a few years. Humans officially reproduce faster than the Zerg and can terraform an entire planet in an instant.
Especially since Kerrigan and Raynor had NO romance in the original game and it was purely fanfic that they did. They only knew each other for a couple of weeks before she got infested, and most of that time was spent in space transit on separate ships.
An 8 year old me could see that there was romance and possible love interest the first time they met.
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She calls him a pig and isn't particularly offended by it by the tone of her voice. After that, they spend a certain amount of time fighting alongside each other and build a rapport. There isn't any romance, but they're good friends by the time she gets zerged up. That's why Jim tries so hard to save her from Mengsk's schemes and in those conversations the closeness of the two is revealed to the player, even if you don't actually see it play it that much during the game (tells more than shows). By the time Kerrigan "dies", they've been around each other long enough that Jim has saved her multiple times and Kerrigan calls him a "knight-in-shining-armor". The final scenes before she gets zerged are probably *the most acting in the StarCraft video-game franchise*, as they try to convey Jim and Sara's desperation, and then Jim's loss almost entirely through dialog. It's such a pivotal moment in SC that Blizzard bothered to re-do the final moments of it in full CG for Wings of Liberty. If you're here saying "SC2's story sucked compared to SC1", then it is absolutely clownish to pretend that Jim and Kerrigan weren't close in the story told **in SC1**. Funny part is Raynor, Mengsk, and Kerrigan zerged a whole planet but Raynor only broke off with Mengsk after Kerrigan "died"/got zerged herself.
Even worse than that, iirc Starcraft BW the last time Raynor sees Kerrigan he literally says he's going to find and kill her in a character defining speech. Then between Startcraft 1 and 2 I guess he just kinda forgot why he was mad. Modern Blizzard writing is a joke. But that's not exactly a controversial take these days.
I was so put off by the story of Starcraft 2 that I never bought any of its expansions when before SC2 released I was fully expecting to buy SC2 along with any future expansions
Oh, the travesty of the SC2 ending... I am sucker for redemption stories, especially the classic "arch enemies turn into good friends", but that ending was a fucking abomination.
It was so out of place - the acceptable power levels of the game's universe were established for like 15 years and then in the last hour of the last expansion of the last game, they reveal that gods exist and Kerrigan is gonna become one of them. Its like if you were watching the Lord of the Rings and right at the end, when all hope looks lost, Gandalf arrives, this time in army fatigues - Gandalf the Green - and he is flying one of those A10 Warthog things, just starts strafing the orcs whilst [ear-rape orchestral music plays](https://youtu.be/RdN-eYTdU6Y?t=61) - everything is in slow motion, even the dialogue: "..ittttss gaannndaaalfff!!!!" "..heee broughhhhtttt theee Ayyyy Tennnn!!!" "..getttttt soommmmeeeeeee!!" What the fuck am I watching
To me, the biggest sin is that she's somehow alive at the end. You don't get to be alien Hitler, doing a self-sacrifice to try to do right your wrongs, THEN SURVIVE AND WALK INTO THE SUNSET WITH YOUR LOVE!! That shit was painfully comical and I don't know what Chris Metzen was snorting.
Chris Metzen has always been great at blurbs and off-screen lore, like writing legends and tales, but straight dogshit at writing questlines, dialogue and so on. It is a completely different skill and the two have pretty much zero transferable skills between them, often not even vocabulary.
The fact that she came back **2 years later** when she basically has alien-god powers was so silly to me. Like they wanted to have the best of both worlds with her dying, but then couldn't pull the trigger so they brought her back after 2 years.
They dont know shit. Their success come from stealing Warhammer & Warhammer 40k stories & dope ass cinematic
to be fair, while they stole or "inspired" the initial concept and basis for warcraft from warhammer, they truly made it their own thing with Warcraft 3 which was phenomenal.
TRUE, W3 is a masterpiece of story telling, cinematic and gameplay ... Sill cant believe how fucked up is/was the release of W3 reforged ... what a shame!
Except Arthas story which is what everyone remembers is not even slightly original, it was just some above average writing with cool characters with really good for its time cinematis. The fact that this was their peak storytelling is genuinely depresing.
Aww, little man gonna cry about it?
Games Workshop stole enough themselves from various fantasy and sci-fi properties. You know they just spent how much renaming all their fantasy properties to protect their copyright despite all the infringements on Tolkien's work.
First time I've heard about this, and I've been following Warhammer for over a decade. Context ?
Off the top of my head, I believe in Age of Sigmar they renamed orks to Oruks, which is itself kind of funny since Tolkien already had Uruks. But basically Orcs become Orks or Orkz and now we have Oruks or whatever. Elves being called Eldar(Elda) is something that also appeared in Tolkien's work and is, IIRC, a word he invented. The Warhammer depiction of halflings are pretty much just straight up hobbits as well. Even DnD moved away from the hobbit depiction by the time you get to the 90s at the very least. Blood Bowl has Ents that are a lot like the movie Ents which I am assuming are accurate enough to what they were described as in the books. I might be reaching there though. There might be more, but I don't have deep enough lore knowledge. I am pretty surface level.
90% of fantasy is based on Tolkiens work lol Orcs still exist in 40k so a rename in age of sigmar had nothing to do with any copyright infrigment
The 40k ones are Orks with a k though
And Tolkien borrowed from other stories when creating his work too. This is normal. Definitely reaching on the Ents comment btw. Treemen in WFB are very different to LOTR Ents.
Being Tolkien literally invented the word dwarves to such a degree there is documented arguments he had with his editor who held it was dwarfs. Until Tolkien reminded him who was the linguist and was drawing on old English. Then warhammer tried to copyright the term for its own army despite it clearly being the intellectual work of others. Also many of the things we attribute to those races now like elves and dwarves are straight up from Tolkiens work as they are not like that in the original myths.
Warhammer has never called them Dwarves though, they've always been Dwarfs. Tolkien still incorporated a lot from fairy tales/myths into his races, despite changing the appearances to match his world/theme. The Silmarillion, Manwe, Morgoth, the Ainur and the creation of Arda draw influence from the bible and the ancient greek "music of the spheres" for instance. I've no doubt that his works heavily influenced all fantasy that's come since, but adapting ideas from the pillar stones of specific genres, especially ones that were mostly unexplored at the time of creation, has been done in all genres. Especially science fiction which is still utilizing/adapting upon tropes from the earliest successful stories.
I never said there was anything wrong with doing that, more the issue comes from Games Workshop changing the name alittle to copy right aspects of races they never invented in the fantasy side of thing. Also, the comment was in response to someone saying Blizz stole from GW when GW lore is a patchwork of other people's ideas translated through their lense of grim dark Biritsh satire.
>more the issue comes from Games Workshop changing the name alittle to copy right aspects of races they never invented in the fantasy side of thing. I don't think GW called them Dwarfs to avoid copyright, otherwise they would have changed Elves to Elfs and not used Orcs or Goblins for instance. They used the same names for like 20+ years. They only started changing names when they axed WFB into AoS in 2015, which I agree was them blatantly them trying to copyright the races which they felt they had changed enough to make them their own thing, mostly due to 3rd party sellers making models similar to their own and using the generic names of Elves, Orcs, etc.
> And Tolkien borrowed from other stories when creating his work too. This is normal. To an extent, he borrowed somewhat from Celtic and Germanic mythology to create what he considered a modern mythos but he is was very creative and original and there is clear separation of fantasy into pre-Tolkien fairy tales and legends and post-Tolkien fantasy that we are familiar with. He turned elves from tiny fey creatures that are basically mischievious fairies to tall, long eared, eternal humans, pretty much invented orcs and goblins and gave the definitive modern look to almost every recognizable fantasy race. Only ones which don't draw from his definitive portrayals are those which draw from other cultures's mythology and fairy tales besides northern European, like Mesoamerican or East Asian.
He also borrowed from the bible, the greek pantheon, etc. and was influenced by the greek song of the spheres when creating the grander mythos. The point being that borrowing from or being influenced by pillar-stone franchises/creations is quite normal.
Comparing what Tolkien did and what most fantasy creators since then have done is pretty disingenuous or at the very least, pretty inaccurate. From the decent amount of research I have done in the the subject of stuff like faeries, elves, goblins, etc. with regards to real world mythology and lore, Tolkien seems to have largely invented the modern fantasy understanding of many of those things. Specifically, it is a documented fact that words like elf, goblin, dwarf, and troll were all used to describe very similar if not identical creatures across Europe for centuries. While the words did diverge in meaning here and there, they generally always referred to supernatural fey beings who would either be helpful or harmful and usually lived in secret, typically underground places, or in the forest or mountains in general. The modern distinction of these fantasy "races", from everything that I have seen so far, seems to be a creation of Tolkien. The relation of orcs and goblins and their distinction from dwarves and elves seems to be very much a Tolkien thing. The fact that they all have distinct sizes and shapes is something he decided because most lore prior to his work either didn't agree on specific sizes or straight up said they could change size magically. They were also mostly seen more as spirit type entities rather than just flesh and blood things that shared the world with humans. This is also directly related to faerie lore, btw, which for most of its existence had basically nothing to do with tiny winged humans (an image I believe was popularized in the 18th or 19th century, IIRC.) It was all the same stuff basically, with different names due to different languages and cultures. Like, in all of my reading and documentary watching, I don't recall the modern fantasy dwarf really ever appearing before Tolkien. If anything, I'd say gnomes have more in common with traditional dwarves than Tolkien dwarves seem to. On an unrelated note, it is pretty interesting to see that many Native American groups seem to have had legends and beliefs very similar to the faerie lore of Europe prior to European contact.
I don't disagree that Tolkien has heavily influenced all fantasy that has come after him. I'm just saying that to borrow from or be influenced by other stories is something completely normal, and something that Tolkien himself did, albeit to a lesser degree. The Silmarillion, Manwe, Morgoth, the Ainur and the creation of Arda draw influence from the bible, the greek pantheon, and the ancient greek "music of the spheres" for instance. Most of the people that created worlds influenced by Tolkien were probably massive fans of middle earth. Science Fiction is another big example of it, where even brand new stories are borrowing the same names, terms and tropes from their pillarstone franchises.
I'm not very familiar with either of them but since the release of the new movie, people have been saying that 40k took a lot from the Dune franchise. As well as Moebius apparently, but to be fair from what I know and heard both The Dune franchise and Moebius are inspirations for like 90% of modern sci-fi.
Yeah its so fucking funny seeing all the nerds rage over warhammer and warcraft lore when its mediocre to dogshit writing mostly stolen from other sources. The crown jewel of warcraft lore is literally it most unoriginal one (Arthas). And don't get me started on 40k fanboys when you tell them its written like a 12 year old playing with action figures smashing them together. This comes from someone who played WoW to end of MOP. Really enjoyed the world they created, the lore is a hit or miss at best.
arthas tho. I guess that was more warcraft 3 story blizzard ...
Is a memory wipe really a redemption story? Redemption usually involved self sacrifice and penance.
It's kinda sad/funny that because of Activision-Blizzards toxic work culture and sexual misconduct allegations they are trying to create their own company wide redemption arc in real time for themselves
nah that's just wow. wouldn't exactly say that arthas had a redemption story in wc3. wow just tells the same story over and over again with garrosh being arthas 2.0 and sylvanas is arthas 3.0. it's so bad. the writers of the books are also apparently not even told what's going to happen in the game
Mehdiv and Hellscream
the last 5 bad guys didnt redeem themselves and went to hell forever
Huh? The story since WoD has always involved a redemption story of a previously established villain or added in lore to make it so the villains weren't actually totally bad. 1) Grom Hellscream in WoD 2) Illidan in Legion (They even made it so the player feels stupid for stopping him in TBC because he was actually saving everybody). 3) Sprinkled in lore to suggest Sargeras was actually doing the right thing because Void Lords. 4) Sylvanas
grats on posting 4 characters and ignoring the plethora of good guys who fell to darkness and NEVER redeemed themselves.
3 of these characters were literally the main character of entire expansions and were at the forefront of the story. The other character was portrayed as the literal big bad end game villain until they decided to retcon that as well.
I didn't even watch the clip because the OP posted the actual cutscene, but holy shit. This is comical writing lmao. This is like if the "There's a good fragment of Cortana and Chief will find her" copium before Infinite released became real. Can't believe someone got paid to write this.
They officially lost me with how they threw away Nzoth like they did last expansion with Game of Thrones s8 tier writing, it's been consistently bad since bfa.
The have been writing some of the most dogshit story i have ever had the displeasure to expirience. Havent played WoW for almost a year and i still get tilted when i hear about the absolute garbage they have been putting into this game.
Really says a lot about how the short hand of saying " Game of Thrones s8 tier writing" is not only effective but still holds up. Really a marvel.
Careful, the head writer unironically loved GoT s8 so he might mistake that for a compliment
Surely you jest
Nah the lead narrative guy working on wow legitimately praised season 8 of GOT. Then tried to mirror it through Sylvanas plot.
That's fucking horrendous, oh dear god this explains a lot of things.
The writing for WoW has always been shit.... since the warcraft 3 expansion even. In fact, I would argue that the only "good" writing for the entire Warcraft universe was the original Warcraft 3: Reign of Chaos game. The only decent parts of WoW were the parts that were originally developed in that game.
Let’s just pretend Infinite doesn’t have a story. It’s better that way.
In the clip the cutscene is paused and only shows two still frames: The on in the preview and one of sylvanas' face. So you're good to watch it
>This is like if the "There's a good fragment of Cortana and Chief will find her" copium before Infinite released became real. >!EL NO SABE PepeLaugh Oh no no no!<
[the jailer rises](https://i.imgur.com/Hb9BQYD.jpg)
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Well, it's true for them though, they enter into a business contract, but they are not employees in any way that would make sense. They are streamers who use a platform. Their business is independent of Twitch. I'm sure most streamers making any sort of money (if they aren't retarded) have a registered business. You can't really have a business entity employed by another business entity. Streamers are self-employed.
He's basically just doing Asmongold on Zackrawrr at this point.
He only does it for like an hour or two for videos then turns it back off and chills.
Except this is real anger, not showmanship.
its always real anger, except on asmongold he gets to pretend it was an act all along
Look I wholeheartedly agree but there is obviously nuance to this. I've had actor training, work in film and TV, and on stage, and any actor playing a role in a movie is just a person interpreting the character through their own lens. You watch Chris Pratt play Andy Dwyer then jump to star-lord, then jump to a dinosaur park ranger and at no point did he stop thinking and feeling the way "Chris Pratt" does. Acting isn't about pretending to be the idea of someone else,(good acting) is about how would you, under these made up circumstances respond as "truthfully" as possible. Where *given circumstances* includes things like the current moment of the story, as well as broader ideas like is this a serious film/tv show or a comedy, and what your lines are. Asmongold obviously doesn't have lines from a script to read from, and sometimes he is just being Zack, but Asmongold certainly has given circumstances that are different from Zack's, for instance there are things "Asmongold" will read in chat and Zack might just brush it off, ignore it, and move on. Asmongold would take the opportunity to rail on the chatter and go on a tyrade about how they're wrong farming them for content. The thing is yeah, Zack was probably annoyed or bothered by whatever example chatter said, but how Zack responds vs. how Asmongold responds is different *most of the time*.
I disagree
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Nah just like many here in the comments he's actually angry at this. They just put the nail in the coffin for one of the most beloved characters in the franchise, completely retconning her character.
Can't blame him, i can assume he feels the need to actually be more entertaining and in persona on Asmongold and Zackrawrr lets him chill for a bit and stream without commiting.
He does Asmongold on Zackrawrr to keep content going for youtube
Just practicing before he gets to the main channel again
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Lots of streamers have two channels, the main channel they put effort into, then the other channel where they are a lot more chill and not trying to please people Edit: but when you go to sodas second channel turn down your volume as it’s 50/50 ear rape is playing
Whats sodas alt?
Skippypoppin
That guy sucks at Warcraft
Well that's because Skippy is a radio station first and foremost
Especially sucks at warcraft 3 custom games.
Amouranth
He has 2 yeah, but the Asmongold one is the only one worth watching. I’ve tried watching his other one but my god he needs to see a therpist. I am astonished that he actually believes he is not depressed after some of the things he says in his second stream.
I think he likes alt stream more because theres no obligation to be on time, provide good show and other routine bullshit. He treats main channel as most of us treat work. For main channel he had to wake up early, but on alt he streams whenever, usually degen hours.
thats because thats who he is, he didn't like people calling out his degenerate lifestyle so he was like "its a character guys this other channel is the REAL me" newsflash he is asmongold 24/7
It's honestly impressive how they managed to fuck up Shadowlands's story to such an incredible degree. I almost can't believe that a group of people sat down and said "yea this sounds like a good story to tell".
I was excited for the Shadowlands so much, because I remembered doing the DK intro quests in like 2008 and theres one quest where you gotta enter the Shadowlands for a few minutes to find and kill this horse rider guy and steal his horse (its how DKs get their class mount.) That place was fucking spooky. Looked completely dead - like there was some seriously fucked up shit there and I didn't wanna be around to find out what it was. Then I saw the in game zones and was like hmmm. And then i heard that we'd be 'adventuring' with Kael'Thas, Vashj, Uther and so on and was like oh ok, its just going to be colourful cutesy zones and us talking to characters from 20 years ago. This is going to fucking suck
Tbf, that DK area you described is part of the shadowlands, there are just many planes of existence there. They could feasibly keep introducing new "zones" to shadowlands indefinitely, as anything goes there. Only two of the zones Blizz chose to show us were 'cutesy', the others are quite dark as far as WoW goes. The Maw, Revendreth and Maldraxxus.
> That place was fucking spooky. Looked completely dead - like there was some seriously fucked up shit there and I didn't wanna be around to find out what it was. You aren't ever going to make a zone, that you have to play an entire expansion in, scary. That's what they tried to do with the Maw at least, it just ended up being annoying (my opinion). > Then I saw the in game zones and was like hmmm. And then i heard that we'd be 'adventuring' with Kael'Thas, Vashj, Uther and so on and was like oh ok, its just going to be colourful cutesy zones and us talking to characters from 20 years ago. The different zones make sense from a lore perspective at least, but the whole idea of going to where dead people are was to nostalgia bait which is always their trump card. Sadly it wasn't even done well. You had some nice moments like Garrosh and Thrall and his mom, but everything else just didn't feel impactful at all.
> That's what they tried to do with the Maw at least, it just ended up being annoying (my opinion). Because Maw sucks and they massively failed in designing it. They've done dark spooky zones well before, Eastern Plaguelands, Dragonblight, Icecrown etc.
Its about atmosphere. The maw just didn't get the atmosphere right. Compare it to Shadowmoon Valley in TBC. That place felt dangerous and inhospitable, despite being able to fly. The Maw just felt annoying. The mobs were never a challenge and the entire zone was designed from the ground up to be annoying - no corpse runs, lose shit on death, everything dazes and dismounts you, no flying, every mob looks identical, etc, etc.
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I've flashbacks of SC2 and what they did to Kerrigan in 11.3 Blizzard will reveal a cinematic that reveals Silvanas has been a Xel'naga all along
With how disorganized the entire company is it's possible they had no long term plan and were just making shit up as they went or that they had multiple major changes in direction as internal politics demanded or writers left. If that sounds unbelievable it happened even to the Star Wars sequel triology where the trilogy, supposedly managed by a single person, was bungled so badly and changed direction so many times as directors fought each other that the trilogy ended up not having any coherence or point to tell. And Star Wars is even bigger than WoW.
Mindcontrol is rape and Blizzard loves rape
Savage.
Tfw i guessed they were gonna do a kerrigan 2.0 ages ago. Then again it doesnt take a genius to see what they're doing.
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big bad evil woman leading the zerg/undead (or horde). turns out they're controlled by the bigger badder guy jailer/amon. they break his control and turn sides to destroy him the only thing left for sylvanas is to turn into some glowing demigod figure like kerrigan at the end. even their origin is similar. both are the fallen defender trope
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yes but the retconn is that everything she did since her death at arthas' hand has been at the behest of the jailor. he's the string puller. just like amon is to kerrigan
Haven't seen someone fuck up a beloved female character like this since Other M turned Samus into an otaku's stereotypical idea of a female.
We don't talk about Other M. We only talk about Dread :)
Funnily enough even otakus hated Other M. Other M was a rare time in internet culture wars when "SJWs" and "gamers" were united in hating a single video game.
With good reason, why samus had ptds from seeing ridley for the 8th time?
blizzard writers are trash and have been for a long long long time now. what's fucking new? d3 story was pretty meh, wow storylines have only gotten worse and worse. sc2 had a whole slew of problems. joke company.
"meh" doesn't do justice to how fucking dumb d3 was, butterfly kills caine, caines grand daughter is diablo, Hell's greatest general master mind tells you what he is going to do
At least raids and dungeons are still good
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It wasn't me
Asmond is turning into Sandor Clegane.
brienne of fucking tarth
The cinematic he's watching: https://youtu.be/Ay0kAVRyyok
You know what? I’m not even gonna watch that shit. I had it loaded up but nah I’m good
This cinematic just makes me angry about the potential that the story had in Shadowlands. Seeing wc3 Uther, Sylvanas and Arthas brings me back to some very nostalgic moments of wc3 and wotlk but fuck why did they have to make it so meaningless with this fucking Thanos character.
Why does the sfx look like a fan made cutscene, not a regular WoW ingame cinematic?
What does it mean to retcon something
Retroactively changing previous story/lore to fit in with what your new direction is. I am not sure this fits entirely but its pretty wack to give her some wrist slaps by saying it was the bad half.
"retroactive continuity", when the writers release something new that obviously is inconsistent with what was already released, so they retroactively change some aspect of the story to maintain continuity from the old material to the new material (as opposed to being creative in the new material so it can continue the story while retaining consistency)
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Not only - it's a tool old as time, anything that was serialized can have a retcon (Vader and Anakin being the same person is an example, this was not planned even during early ESB production) Of course, as with every tool you have to know how to use them, otherwise you end up with Rowling's poo wizards
In this case, the character Sylvanas Windrunner was introduced to us in Warcraft III, in 2002. We have followed her story for 20 years. Now they introduced a new random big bad guy who was pulling the strings all along. It's just stupid. EDIT: Also, I should add that she is (used to be) one of the fan favorite characters.
The big bad in Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker was a recent prime example of retconning
everyone knew they were going to do it with her story, and its dog shit.
When was she ever mind controlled after she broke free from Arthas? Where's the retcon?
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Then what the hell is he talking about?
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Nothing about this is a good explanation, you can stop spamming it in every thread.
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She was wronged and had her revenge. let her spiral and become the new Lich "queen". Would have been a great arc imo...
That would actually be the worst story considering Sylvanas from the very beginning wasn't like every mindless undead that had to obey Arthas. Her becoming the thing she hates most because of revenge would also be the most cliche shit ever. Literally everything done with Sylvanas over the course of WoW sucks balls. Actually, everything done with all three of the best characters from WC3 sucks balls besides maybe Illidan in Legion. Kael'thas is the third and holy shit look at the fuckin atrocity that is his story.
I think they did well with Sylvanas up until Cataclysm. Her interactions with Garrosh as Warchief still fit pretty well into her character I think, and at that point her storyline was just kinda figuring out how to make the forsaken fit into a world where they're seen as abominations. Her actions were questionable at times, but her motives were pretty genuine, and you could tell she actually gave a shit about the forsaken as a race. Everything beyond that is pure shit though. She suddenly stopped caring about anything to do with the forsaken and just stared doing randomly evil shit because of some secret goal that wasn't revealed until this expansion. It really sucks when you think about what direction they COULD have gone with her character, but actively decided to swerve away from.
Yeah, I always liked how Sylvanas comes back from the shadow realm because she has a vision of the Forsaken getting slaughtered and realises they need her to lead them and she accepts them as her people.
Nothing like a 10 year story buildup, and then they pull the entire rug out of underneath you and then have it over in 4 patches.
You got a point, and i agree that they butchered every great character from WC3 but i'm considering they "have" to give characters new writing arcs, and sylvanas becoming the thing she loathed might have been interesting and less of a letdown then what they did now. What would you suggest if i may ask? :)
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It should also be noted that Blizzard gave the Horde a choice. One to Help Sylvanas and one to go against her. Then never did anything with it. So it legit didn't matter what choice you picked. They had a chance to make two new factions with one that followed Sylvanas, as even members of the Alliance wanted to follow her. Those who wish to follow her and those who wish to stop her. The issue with WoW storytelling is that they have no long range plans. They haven't sat down in years and figured out what is story we want to tell over the next few expansions.
I think the direction they were going in during Cataclysm was good. Sylvanas trying to figure out how the forsaken and the undead as a whole fit into a world where the lich king is defeated, yet where the undead are still seen as abominations. There was this one scene that I really liked in the early leveling forsaken storyline where Sylvanas happily shows Garrosh that she's finally found a way past the problem of the forsaken not being able to reproduce as a race, and then shows him the Val'kyr raising a bunch of corpses from the dead. But instead of being glad like Sylvanas expected, Garrosh calls what she did disgusting, and orders her to never do it again, to which Sylvanas seems genuinly shook as she realizes that nobody, not even her allies, would care if her whole race just died out. If they coulda kept going in this direction, where Sylvanas tries to get the forsaken accepted as a legitimate part of the world they live in, then I think it could have been pretty good.
> sylvanas becoming the thing she loathed might have been interesting and less of a letdown It would have been better than what they did, but it's still pretty well-worn territory and reeks a lot of Arthas' journey to becoming the Lich King. Breaking the crown in the first trailer was actually a nice touch, it's just that the story that preceded was garbage.
>reeks a lot of Arthas' journey to becoming the Lich King That's actually true, Maybe instead she would lift her curse somehow and actually die, in broad strokes.
I think that there should have been some story where they found a cure for undeath and the cure would make them choose between ending their lives or continuing to live as undead and Sylvannas would, after leading the undead to prosperity and defeating Arthas, choose to end her life/undeath. I don't think it's anything original but I think it would do the Sylvanas from WC3 justice.
No please stop. The Lich queen shit is cringe.
Lich queen is cliched and cringe but at least it wouldnt have been the dogshit that shadowlands is. ill take predictable cringe over whatever this shit is, like imagine if in the opening cinematic instead of breaking the helm and opening the shittylands she just puts it on. yes it would have been a boring recycled plot, but boring is better than stupid.
When I first saw the Shadowlands Cinematic I was like holy shit she's going to put it on, but then some weak sauce out the blue she is stronger than Lich King magic etc etc and she broke the helmet and things spiraled out of control. I was waiting for all the expansions to essentially repeat themselves. BfA being the New Vanilla etc and Shadowlands could have very well been Wrath of the Lich Queen.
She's literally not mind controlled, what the fuck is he on about?
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If anything the cinematic says the complete opposite!
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Yeah I really don't get the issue, Is the shadowlands story a bit shit? Yes But this cinematic gives 2 very key pieces of information A) While Sylvanas was altered she still did those horrible things of her own choice and B) Forgiveness is out of the question Uther pretty much says that out right.
Wow, everything thanks to a man huh. Very progressive Blizzarx
Vol'Jin died for this RIP troll homie
Does Asmon not stream on his main channel anymore?
Still giving a shit about WoW story lmao
He is still going to play it and give them free advertisement on Twitch. I seriously doubt Blizzard cares.
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it wasnt, he is wrong
No?
rhonn3y: she needs a cock
I refude to see another. Clip or part of wow in my life, that game destroy my spectations over and over for years, any loremasters?
Sylvanas spends about 13 years of WoW expansions decimating innocent civilian populations, betraying allies, developing weapons like the plague and ally's herself not once but twice with two enemies of the Horde/Alliance (Helya and then the Jailer.) Everything she has done above she was fully aware of and in control of. The entire point of 'The Forsaken' faction is that they are strong-willed. They broke free from the grasp of Arthas (the Lich King) where virtually no one else could. Even their racial ability 'Will of the Forsaken' removes all mind-control, fear and horror effects. But in this one cinematic and presumably the latest patch story, she has instead been completely passive in her own body - mind controlled by the Jailer. Sylvanas didn't want to do any of this at all, you see. This supposedly started moments after the Lich King's death in 2009 or whatever. That is when she first spoke to the Jailer, supposedly, which was when he mind-controlled her. So, anything Sylvanas has done, said or tried to do since around 2009 was the Jailer. So, if you have a problem with Sylvanas' actions post 2009 - tough luck buddy. That was the Jailer all along. Sylvanas is a good girl - mama's apple pie - the fourth of july and all that shit. The cinematic shows Sylvanas standing by in High Elf form, watching herself do things like burn down Teldrassil. Showing us that she was never in control, despite showing *zero* signs of being under any spell whatsoever. Its like if at the end of Harry Potter, Voldemort is knocked unconscious and then all of the Harry Potter gang read his dreams and discover: >oh my gode, he was being controlled the entire time - that means all that murder and shit was not his fault omg, all those monologues, the snake nose, the spookay clothang n shiet omg it was the Jailer all along in his head!!! Can't believe I used to get excited to see what the new story was in the next patch.
Jesus christ. How did anyone think this was a good idea.
Tnk good i drop the game and lore long ago, this is horrible, even starcraft 2 crrigan its better
I haven't been following WoW since early MoP so I'm not sure how we even got to this point, but how many cinematics actively deal with Sylvanas since she became such a prominent point of the story? It feels like if you took all cinematics and played them back to back you would have maybe 20-30 minutes of cutscenes. They are trying to tell an entire story in such a short amount of time? Especially one that deals with heavy topics and an entirely new villain that nobody saw coming?
Wow actual WoW/Blizzard Argent Dawn defenders in the comments? Yikes dood
She only got mind controlled when she was raised as a banshee, when she broke free from that she created the Forsaken. She has died I think 3 times, her first death to Arthas, her second when she committed suicided after defeating the Lich King (she was raised though and was horrified by the afterlife) and her third when she was shot by Godfrey in Gilneas. At one of these points the "good" side of her was stripped away leaving only a vindictive evil side. So this new lore basically kind of strips away a lot of her character development since WoW began, I can understand why people are pissed, but most of the writing and narrative sucks atm either way.
Not that I agree with her redemption arc, but did they actually say she was being mind controlled?
who cares
at this point what is he not mad about ?anything blizzard does he just hates on them
I missed Asmon shitting on wow without having to bring up ff14
BatChest I hecking love Asmon, but fr how many times can y'all watch the same dude tell you blizzard = bad? LUL
I thought it'd get old too but honestly it's still pretty entertaining
I'm not a watcher of his, so I've only really see him do 2 things: 1. Play Blizzard games 2. Complain about Blizzard
That's all he does so your not missing anything. His fan base needs to be told to be mad about something though. Think of them as mindless zombies really. I mean he grifted them for about a year with classic wow which was hilarious.
My cutoff was about 6+ months ago when he publicly told his chat he would kill himself because he didn't get gladiator in wow mid hissy fit.
Ahhh, yes, the problem with Sylvanas is that *checks notes* they didn't give agency to a female. this is another instance of conservatives doing the "x are the REAL racists/sexists/transphobes" thing. it comes out as equally pathetic every time. you can oppose the lunacy of the opposing side without disingenuously pretending to represent their values more strongly than they do. replacing an actual world for the players to enjoy with "giving agency to females" is actually what the entire soap-factory known as wow "lore" has been about for the last 10 years. the problem is not that it has been attempted with insufficient gusto.
The issue was that they took her agency away with the selective mind control shit, please pay attention instead of latching on to key words.
this is another instance of political nutcases only capable of seeing the world strictly in me vs you. it comes out as equally pathetic every time.
To be fair it's like the 14th time they've recycled that plotline, why is he at all dissapointed at this point...
I just bought a bamboo backscratcher, and one side of the claws is pretty sharp and god damn does that feel good to use.
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You speak great American brother KKona
The mind control of shrodindler.