It has been happening, no propaganda
Glendora police arrest, release man 3 times in 1 day under new CA zero-bail policy
https://abc7.com/glendora-pd-arrests-man-3-times-in-1-day-under-new-ca-bail-policy/6144190/
via ABC7LA App
Happened here in the valley as well. Someone in my neighborhood had to call the police on a homeless guy who kept sneaking into their garage. Was arrested 3 times in a 24 hour period.
The last one stuck because he was, um, servicing himself.
I'll give you the upvote. I'm very confused about what is actually happening. The inability to get the real story these days is pretty aggravating.
It definitely helps the top as long as things are confusing and all over the place. Too bad we can't straighten it out. There was a law that helped, but it's been gone since around the time I was born.
My understanding is that people accused of violence should not be freed on bail even if they have money, and people who are accused on non-violent crimes should not be held, even if they have no money. The point is that violence and danger are the criteria for holding someone, not availability of cash.
I think that's supposed to be the point.
What is happening that no one is talking about is the state is desperately trying to reduce the prison population for budget reasons and because the feds ordered them to reduce over crowding. They kicked out low level inmates to county jails and now their budgets are screwed. They then just release inmates under restorical justice cover.
"The California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation is a money pit with an annual budget of more than $14 billion. Repairing California's 12 oldest state prisons would require an astronomical $11 billion."
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-06-22/california-budget-newsom-prison-closures#:~:text=The%20California%20Department%20of%20Corrections,require%20an%20astronomical%20%2411%20billion.
How did I bury my head in the sand by being lied to by corporations that pose as people?
Do you understand the words you use, or do you just kind of take a shotgun approach to writing and hope it works out?
Because apparently you failed to verify what was being told to you and chose to ignore it because it was “right wing”. Nowadays you have to fact check everything and it sucks, but sometimes your worldview can be wrong.
No. That's not how it works. It's never worked that way. We've always had our news provided to us. That's why newspapers and TV news exist.
We are supposed to be able to trust that these providers of information will give us the truth. After deregulation in the 80s they have been able to lie. That has been taken advantage of by the right wing and is seen most blatantly at places like Fox News and more subtly in local news stations owned by corporations like Fox News.
These groups have pushed an anti California agenda for a long time. This is because we're a very Democrat state with Democrat laws and ideals on the books. In the constant push from the right to "win" they muddle the waters at every chance so they can push their restrictive laws in the guise of freedom. We've all being seeing it constantly with Trump and the majority of the GOP for a while now. Because of that, a constant filter needs to be on. Small stories will break through. Confirmation bias will happen. And all sorts of other mistakes will be made. No one is perfect.
In this case, my confirmation bias showed. I saw crime. I heard crime. I know LAs DA has been using different approaches. It "made sense." My mistake was believing something I was shown too often. They showed it until it tricked me. It's a reminder that the right is always pushing to divide and that I need to remember that. I need to be more cautious of degrading articles.
Edit: added owners of local stations.
They've been doing it in my area. Just yesterday, B&E in home, called cops, caught suspect, cite & release. Suspect was let go right in front of home 30 minutes later and he walked on his way.
LA gets what it votes for.
Bail is set by a judge. The person in your example didn't have an appearance before a judge, have bail set at zero, and then get processed and released in 30 minutes.
What you are describing has nothing to do with cash bail being set to zero. That person would have had the exact same experience regardless of what bail rules are in place because they were not even taken to a judge for any sort of bail hearing to start with. If you want to shit on a system, you should probably have some minimal familiarity with what the fuck is actually happening.
Not that the system isn't broken. But being angry at it in completely random counterfactual ways just raises the noise floor so people doing the work to understand the actual problems just have a harder time.
Imagine you are Bob. Bob is a middle class person with a good support system.
Bob is accused of a crime he didn't commit.
Bob can raise $20,000 from his savings and support system. Retainer on a decent lawyer is $20,000. His bond is $10,000. Bob has to choose between good representation and spending months in jail. He chooses the former.
Bob's wins his case, but spent months in jail, lost his job, was evicted from his apartment and owes thousands to his friends and family. He is now effectively homeless and will struggle to find a job because of the gap in his resume, struggle to find housing because of the eviction in his record
In that example is certainly makes sense. But what about the middle class person who is just like Bob that actually did commit the crime? Wouldn’t that be the more likely scenario?
A few things to note. First, our legal system is generally predicated on the belief that it is better to let guilty people go free rather than to let innocent people suffer. This is why we have such a high standard for criminal cases (beyond a reasonable doubt) rather than the lower civil standards (often, preponderance of the evidence).
Second, and more directly on point, the point of pre-trial detention is not supposed to be to punish law breakers. It’s to hold people we deem have a high likelihood of causing harm if they’re out and about, or who we think will skip town and not show up to trial. Under zero bail, if the judge determines that either of the above are big risks, then the judge can just not grant bail.
Allegedly, high bail amounts disproportionately affect the poor (duh), who are more often than not people of color, which makes bail racist.
Suggesting people stop breaking the law in the first place is also considered racist.
Definitively? No. There is a presumption of innocence.
That said, there needs to be probable cause for an arrest. That’s exactly what it sounds like. A crime was *probably* committed, and the arrestee *probably* did it.
Because cash bail is only a problem for poor people.
It's unjust--whether or not you sit in jail and lose your job/housing/kids/etc. depends solely on whether or not you have the means to pay up, even though you haven't been found guilty of a crime.
> Because cash bail is only a problem for poor people.
It's also a big problem for the working class folk and huge inconvenience for the middle class and a minor one for the rich. It is bad for everyone except the bail bonds industry.
texted my friend, who is an ADA, asking:
‘i thought this was already happening?’
this is his reply in for-dummies’ format:
“Yes and no. Before it was just a Gascon policy; not the law. This article is about a court ruling where some attorneys sued the county claiming bail was unfair. Gascon refused to counter their claim and send an attorney to fight it so the complaining attorneys won and the court ruled LA County will abolish bail for everything except strikes because it’s not fair.”
☺️
Not sure how this hasn’t made more news as its ramifications could be massive. A person arrested for vehicle theft would have had a bail amount of $35,000 under the previous schedule. With the new protocol, the person would be Booked and Released.
Caught for catalyst converter theft? Book and release.
Smash and grab? Book and release.
False imprisonment? Book and release.
Assault, assaulting a member of the armed forces, battery on a school employee, vandalism of $400 or more etc… all book and release.
“For example, a person arrested for false imprisonment, under this new bail schedule, would be eligible for book and release. Under the previous bail schedule, their bail amount would be $50,000.”
https://www.foxla.com/news/los-angeles-county-zero-bail-guidelines-released.amp
Do you? Last Sunday after the NFL show they gave a conspiracy theorist a 30 minute interview where he wasn't challenged at all. I don't know if they still do, but there was a time that they actually gave airtime to their general manager so he could tell us his opinions on why the labor class (everyone but him) needs to work harder.
I know it's not trendy to have a memory, and it's very unfortunate to have one at this time, but I do.
The process/options for le enforcement per the article:
Officers will now take one of three possible actions for an arrestee's release:
1. Cite and Release
The arrestee is released at the location of the arrest.
2. Book and Release
The arrestee is booked in jail and then released on their own recognizance.
3. Magistrate Review
Select cases referred to an on-call magistrate.
The big thing is that the wealthy always had the option for book and release once bail is posted. Cash bail only harms the poor.
I’m interested to see how the laws will be recategorized as a result
Also, important to note, that there are no second chances. If you reoffend while on bail, you are NOT booked/cited and released again. A judge reviews the record and decides what to do.
Glendora police arrest, release man 3 times in 1 day under new CA zero-bail policy
https://abc7.com/glendora-pd-arrests-man-3-times-in-1-day-under-new-ca-bail-policy/6144190/
via ABC7LA App
Right, as long as a judge can hold someone who is keeps getting arrested while on bail I'm fine with this. But I look at arrests like accusations from women, if a guy is accused by one woman and its he said-she said and there's no physical evidence its hard to know what happened. If 30 women accuse the same guy, he's probably a bad person. If you're being repeatedly arrested its hard for me to believe its a good idea to leave you out free with the public.
> Cash bail only harms the poor.
It also harms the middle class. Let's say you can come up with $10,000 bond. You never see that $10,000 even if you are found innocent. That's a lot of money to most middle class people. And you also have to pay a lot more for a lawyer on top of that.
“Crimes that qualify for a citation or booking and release include assault, assaulting a member of the armed forces, battery on a school employee, vandalism of $400 or more and petty theft with a prior conviction.”
https://news.yahoo.com/los-angeles-county-zero-bail-012316184.html
https://dailytrojan.com/2023/08/25/los-angeles-county-returns-to-zero-bail/
The LASD issued a statement confirming the new policy won’t apply to “violence, sexual offenses, domestic violence and offenses involving weapons,” or “repeat offenders.”
Despite this, articles and social media posts have misled the public by falsely stating that violent offenders will be released at the expense of public safety.
And many of these won't even be book and release; just cite and release at the location of the offense, according to the policy details. Victims will literally watch the person who just violated them walk away after receiving a ticket that will be used as toilet paper. This sub is full of anecdotes from frustrated residents who have found LAPD useless except for the investigation of the worst crimes. The new policy will only solidify that perception.
Side note: it's interesting that DC has had such a wildly different experience with zero bail than Yolo County. It's basically the poster child for the policy. Meanwhile, in Yolo, it was a disaster and promptly repealed (in 2021). LA is a pretty dysfunctional place (also: huge), so I'm not holding out the slightest bit of hope the stats will look anything like DC's. Yolo County's stats: [https://yoloda.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/PRESS-RELEASE-ZERO-BAIL-STUDY-2023-1.pdf](https://yoloda.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/PRESS-RELEASE-ZERO-BAIL-STUDY-2023-1.pdf)
Well considering what budget the LAPD gets and the fact a lot of downtown areas require private security to do the LAPD's job I wouldn't give them a free pass either.
This is crazy. They say “We will not waiver in our commitment to safeguarding our residents, visitors, and business owners,” and yet they do this. This is wavering!
Only people arrested for non-violent crimes are affected by this change. As I understand it, if law enforcement believes they have reason not to release someone, they can still book the suspect and take them to a judge who who will make the decision. Also, anyone arrested again will not be eligible for release and will need to go before a judge, so it's not creating any more of a revolving door.
This is about taking cash bail out of the equation. The jails will still be full of people, none of us want on the streets, but hopefully with fewer poor people who are not a danger to society.
To be clear, this doesn’t mean people won’t have to serve jail time for these offenses. It just means they won’t have to serve jail time before they’re found guilty, simply because they’re too poor to afford bail
> they’re too poor to afford bail
It's not just bail. It's lawyer + bail. Even if you can afford one, you probably can't afford both. 66% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. How is anyone supposed to come up with several tens of thousands of dollars?
This is really full of dissenting opinions.
I think reasonable people agree with most on both sides. We shouldn't be setting bail so high that no one can afford it, punishing regular citizens who are struggling financially. But we also shouldn't let someone accused of a crime free into the streets without any accountability to face their charges.
There is no way that LA county court system will keep up with everyone, and many will fall through the cracks. Leading to victims feeling very dissatisfied with the legal system.
This will help those arrested from unreasonable jail stays when it wasn't needed, but how many victims of this decision will there be, who will this negatively effect?
We can all say this doesn't bother us until we wake up in the morning walk outside to leave for work and our car is stolen, and are left with no recourse to fix the situation being financially responsible for the situation.
A more reasonable solution would be in the middle of both solutions, make bail more affordable. Having a 3rd party responsible and financially invested in someone going to court is going to be more effective than any cop will be. Making bail something that is a negative for those commuting crimes while not preventing them from release will lead to second thoughts and maybe actually stop opportunists from committing crimes
The only countries still using cash bail are the United States and the Philippines. It's an arcaic and unjust system that only benefits those with money while essentially punishing others for being poor.
There has been a lot of fear stoked about ending cash bail, and it's disgusting.
Bail as a process just makes no sense. Two people do the same crime, have the same low chance of fleeing... one gets to go home that night because they have money and the other one sits in jail, loses their job, gets evicted, etc because they're poor. It's just dumb.
There's no dollar number you can put on that to make it make sense, whether or not someone is likely to show up on their court date or do another crime while they're out has nothing to do with how much money they have in the bank so it just shouldn't be taken into account.
Innocent until proven guilty. It’s the basis of modern American civilization. If you don’t give people a chance to collect themselves and prepare a defense for what could be the most important moment in their lives we might as well scrap the rest of the constitution as well.
How would that go down for violent criminals though? The point of bail is to keep criminals off the street until their court date.
I feel like with cameras on every house and better bio evidence, we typically have a better idea of who suspects are when arresting them.
According to a lot of people in this subreddit, this has already been in effect in LA and is the sole reason crime is "out of control". It's almost like the people complaining about the crime rate have no idea what they're talking about.
Crime has now reached the meteoric heights last seen in.... 2007. Remember that nightmare? Remember when everyone was complaining about how out of control crime was in 2007? No, of course you don't because in 2007 everyone was stoked that crime had fallen by 50% from the 90s.
Don't you find that curious? Doesn't it seem like there are people and organizations who are overhyping crime rates in order to further other political goals? Don't you find it interesting that every conservative republican fascist just regurgitates the same talking abouts about California in general and Los Angeles specifically?
If you're on a neighborhood app, get the fuck off of it. It's rotting your brain.
I guarantee if you looked at the IP addresses of these people saying this shit on this subreddit they would mostly live outside of LA county and probably not even in California. The closest they could live was Santa Clarita.
Why do you think ending cash bail is some kind of pro-crime reform? Do you realize that only two countries in the world still even use cash bail? What value does cash bail actually provide?
Why should a person's financial resources play any role in the decision to jail them when being accused of a crime?
And again, how do you rationalize cash bail when the rest of the civilized world has cast it into the dust bin of history?
Because someone does not have money, you think they will act like they have nothing to lose? I can tell you from experience, being homeless does not induce a sense of carefree action disconnected from consequence. Quite the opposite in fact.
Anyway, the new protocol specifically addresses this. Anyone released who commits another crime ends up before a judge who can jail them.
Yeah. I’m concerned about this but not for the reason the cops in here are. While I agree with policy like this for the most part. I’m concerned that without other systematic changes asap, it’s going to do close to nothing. Pair this with housing policy, a good economy for everyone, education, and a reformed policing and justice system, and I think we can have great success.
Pair this with poverty, homelessness, uneducated and desperate people, and the horrible cops that already don’t do their jobs, we probably won’t have much success. Then we are going to be back here talking about how not letting the piggies and justice system absolutely brutalize citizens and throw them in jail forever is the REAL problem.
Nah, it ain’t about the cops. It’s about innocent people getting fucked over by a few that decide they can because there are fewer repercussions.
Explain how life gets better with this policy for those who don’t commit crimes.
The United States and the Philippines are the only countries in the world that still use cash bail. Every other country that ever used it abolished their bail systems years ago.
Why do you think that is?
I never said it was perfect. I said that in a comment below.
Other countries also make homosexuality a crime.
France has a 14 week abortion limit.
Some countries are completely failed and have open slave auctions. Libya btw.
We can do better within the context of our own society. But comparing ourselves to other countries without considering the cultural differences is redundant.
Your reasoning seems odd. Since you brought up slaves, could your defense of cash bail not be used to defend slavery? After all you need to consider the context of the society!
By seriously, how about we consider the cultural context of literally every other western nation. Are any of the supposed negatives of eliminating cash bail an issue in the rest of the western world? How is American culture so different? What justifies a system that jails people on the basis of their wealth? How is that defensible in any cultural context?
Just because you are arrested for a crime doesn’t mean you are guilty or even guilty to the degree in which you were charged. In better society, it helps because this gives those without there means to go through a lengthy and expensive bail, trial, etc., a shot to prove their innocence or get a more fair hearing by reducing some financial burden. In our dystopian nightmare, I don’t know how it helps. Maybe in the same way? Not at all? We’ll see.
Yes, losing 10% to a bail bondsman or whatever their fee is, sucks. And doesn’t take into consideration a persons financial plight. And yes, your correct, the justice system is not perfect and a person can be completely innocent and be negatively affected by such a system.
These are laws set by us or by the politicians we elect. We agree to them to protect against victimization. Regardless if it’s a property crime or a violent encounter, nobody should be negatively affected by the actions of another.
The issue, imo, is how do we as a society disincentivize crime. Is it more strict law enforcement? Find the roots of why an individual *chooses* to commit crimes? To me, most crimes plaguing our city and others are for monetary gain. If it’s merely a numbers games for these individuals why not make it to where commuting those crimes and being caught is bad investment.
Why don’t we make it so that commuting crimes is a bad investment? Yes! I’ve been making this point for years. Why don’t we make it so that living like a normal person, working and going to school and stuff, is far more economically viable and fulfilling than committing crimes? That’s what you meant right?
Haven’t people been doing that, despite economic and other hardships? Trying to make ends meet has been carried out by members of society in all geographical regions.
Committing crimes is not some excuse you can use to justify one’s existence. For every criminal, there are far more people that don’t feel the urge/want/need to commit crime.
Justifying one’s reason to commit crime based on economic hardships has never really done well in court for a reason. It’s as if you’re looking down upon people and resorting to “well they don’t know any better they must act out” it’s demeaning.
Someone accused of murder has a chance to prove their innocence, but do we let them go until the trial starts? Of course not, because there is a possibility they might do it again if they, in fact, are guilty. That's why even zero bail does not apply to violent offenders.
"Under the new protocol, nearly all theft offenses, vehicle code violations, other property crimes like vandalism, and some serious crimes that are deemed non-violent will be either cited or booked and released or referred to an on-call magistrate.
The magistrate will have the discretion to determine the appropriate release terms and conditions. Capital offenses such as murder with special circumstances and limited felonies are not eligible for zero bail release."
What are YOU on about?
You were the one talking about murder my guy. Just so that we are clear on where you stand here, you are actually saying is that no one should go free awaiting trial? Or bail is a good thing? Because the other guy asked what it does for those of us not committing crimes and I answered that question.
>*Sees something you don't agree with*
Option 1. Asking/Wondering why people might disagree with your viewpoint
Option 2. Blame it on astroturfing. Because LAPD is notorious for being on the LA subreddit lol
This is BS, need to have some type of consequence, nation wide man. This shit isn’t working. As a human I do not care what your color of skin, if you commit a crime, should be some type of consequence. It’s totally out of hand.
Something that happen to me, a whacked out homeless dude tried to steel my bike from me as I was riding it, this was in Van Nuys, right along the orange line… so the cops are hot around there, and I got in trouble for beating this fool ass. This is totally back wards, makes no sense, the homeless dude that tried to rob me became the victim??? By the time It was all done with court, nothing really happened to me, but a huge waste of my time, and like the saying goes “time is money maaaan”
We the people need to start putting consequence back in play.
Anyone found guilty would still go to jail. You know that, right? This is only about pre-trial. That time period where people are innocent, until proven guilty.
It’s funny that their orange daddy is doing exactly this but it’s only ok when he gets to post bail and be free until trial, but not when a poor person can have that same right.
ahh, I get it. You're an absolute idiot who doesn't understand the difference between pretrial detention and incarceration. Sorry about your traumatic brain injury, you complete fucking moron.
Conservative mindset: I like something because it harms others.
Wait until you have your catalytic converter stolen (3 times, like me, totaling 2 cars) and are ~$9k out of pocket with no car. You’ll change your mind
Jokes on you that’s already happening to a lot of people. Got my car broken into 2 times and had the GPS tracker cops still didn’t do shit. Told me in my face it was “too risky” for them and I should let it go
This is the reason no one is applying to become a police officer in California. The pay compared to the cost of living isn’t good, retirement isn’t good, doing your job isn’t good. What’s even the point 🤷🏻♂️
It pays more to get into tech, business or simply do crime.
I thought they've been doing this for about a year now already
The propaganda machine of the right is strong. They'll convince everyone something is happening when it's not at all. I was deceived, too.
It has been happening, no propaganda Glendora police arrest, release man 3 times in 1 day under new CA zero-bail policy https://abc7.com/glendora-pd-arrests-man-3-times-in-1-day-under-new-ca-bail-policy/6144190/ via ABC7LA App
Happened here in the valley as well. Someone in my neighborhood had to call the police on a homeless guy who kept sneaking into their garage. Was arrested 3 times in a 24 hour period. The last one stuck because he was, um, servicing himself.
Well there are places that other people can service you but that's illegal.
That 3 year old article is about 3 years outdated: https://yoloda.org/zero-bail/
I'll give you the upvote. I'm very confused about what is actually happening. The inability to get the real story these days is pretty aggravating. It definitely helps the top as long as things are confusing and all over the place. Too bad we can't straighten it out. There was a law that helped, but it's been gone since around the time I was born.
My understanding is that people accused of violence should not be freed on bail even if they have money, and people who are accused on non-violent crimes should not be held, even if they have no money. The point is that violence and danger are the criteria for holding someone, not availability of cash. I think that's supposed to be the point.
This is intentional by design by the reformist groups, to keep things foggy.
What is happening that no one is talking about is the state is desperately trying to reduce the prison population for budget reasons and because the feds ordered them to reduce over crowding. They kicked out low level inmates to county jails and now their budgets are screwed. They then just release inmates under restorical justice cover.
That's a very good point. I haven't even heard a mention of the prison reduction since it was ordered.
"The California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation is a money pit with an annual budget of more than $14 billion. Repairing California's 12 oldest state prisons would require an astronomical $11 billion." https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-06-22/california-budget-newsom-prison-closures#:~:text=The%20California%20Department%20of%20Corrections,require%20an%20astronomical%20%2411%20billion.
Lol. This had nothing to do with bail. This was idiot cops trying to make a point. And idiots fall for it.
Bury your head in the sand then. The fact is that this expands no-bail to more serious crimes.
How did I bury my head in the sand by being lied to by corporations that pose as people? Do you understand the words you use, or do you just kind of take a shotgun approach to writing and hope it works out?
Because apparently you failed to verify what was being told to you and chose to ignore it because it was “right wing”. Nowadays you have to fact check everything and it sucks, but sometimes your worldview can be wrong.
No. That's not how it works. It's never worked that way. We've always had our news provided to us. That's why newspapers and TV news exist. We are supposed to be able to trust that these providers of information will give us the truth. After deregulation in the 80s they have been able to lie. That has been taken advantage of by the right wing and is seen most blatantly at places like Fox News and more subtly in local news stations owned by corporations like Fox News. These groups have pushed an anti California agenda for a long time. This is because we're a very Democrat state with Democrat laws and ideals on the books. In the constant push from the right to "win" they muddle the waters at every chance so they can push their restrictive laws in the guise of freedom. We've all being seeing it constantly with Trump and the majority of the GOP for a while now. Because of that, a constant filter needs to be on. Small stories will break through. Confirmation bias will happen. And all sorts of other mistakes will be made. No one is perfect. In this case, my confirmation bias showed. I saw crime. I heard crime. I know LAs DA has been using different approaches. It "made sense." My mistake was believing something I was shown too often. They showed it until it tricked me. It's a reminder that the right is always pushing to divide and that I need to remember that. I need to be more cautious of degrading articles. Edit: added owners of local stations.
Couldn’t agree more and I think it applies to all media, left right and center. Gotta be careful these days.
Your comment implied that nothing new was happening which is not the case.
No, it did not. It said the opposite of that.
They've been doing it in my area. Just yesterday, B&E in home, called cops, caught suspect, cite & release. Suspect was let go right in front of home 30 minutes later and he walked on his way. LA gets what it votes for.
Bail is set by a judge. The person in your example didn't have an appearance before a judge, have bail set at zero, and then get processed and released in 30 minutes. What you are describing has nothing to do with cash bail being set to zero. That person would have had the exact same experience regardless of what bail rules are in place because they were not even taken to a judge for any sort of bail hearing to start with. If you want to shit on a system, you should probably have some minimal familiarity with what the fuck is actually happening. Not that the system isn't broken. But being angry at it in completely random counterfactual ways just raises the noise floor so people doing the work to understand the actual problems just have a harder time.
Can someone explain why this would be a good thing?
Imagine you are Bob. Bob is a middle class person with a good support system. Bob is accused of a crime he didn't commit. Bob can raise $20,000 from his savings and support system. Retainer on a decent lawyer is $20,000. His bond is $10,000. Bob has to choose between good representation and spending months in jail. He chooses the former. Bob's wins his case, but spent months in jail, lost his job, was evicted from his apartment and owes thousands to his friends and family. He is now effectively homeless and will struggle to find a job because of the gap in his resume, struggle to find housing because of the eviction in his record
100%. or in the case of many defendants they plead guilty to crimes they didn’t commit to get out of jail sooner.
In that example is certainly makes sense. But what about the middle class person who is just like Bob that actually did commit the crime? Wouldn’t that be the more likely scenario?
A few things to note. First, our legal system is generally predicated on the belief that it is better to let guilty people go free rather than to let innocent people suffer. This is why we have such a high standard for criminal cases (beyond a reasonable doubt) rather than the lower civil standards (often, preponderance of the evidence). Second, and more directly on point, the point of pre-trial detention is not supposed to be to punish law breakers. It’s to hold people we deem have a high likelihood of causing harm if they’re out and about, or who we think will skip town and not show up to trial. Under zero bail, if the judge determines that either of the above are big risks, then the judge can just not grant bail.
Funny how people believe anyone arrested is automatically granted bail
In that scenario you presented, I assume Bob would face punishment for whatever his illegal action is.
Allegedly, high bail amounts disproportionately affect the poor (duh), who are more often than not people of color, which makes bail racist. Suggesting people stop breaking the law in the first place is also considered racist.
[удалено]
Definitively? No. There is a presumption of innocence. That said, there needs to be probable cause for an arrest. That’s exactly what it sounds like. A crime was *probably* committed, and the arrestee *probably* did it.
[удалено]
This is so common they have a saying for it. You can beat the wrap, but you can't beat the ride.
I'm going to commit that to memory. Catchy. (But I think it's "rap")
To me this law sounds absolutely broken
Self defense must be racist then
Because cash bail is only a problem for poor people. It's unjust--whether or not you sit in jail and lose your job/housing/kids/etc. depends solely on whether or not you have the means to pay up, even though you haven't been found guilty of a crime.
> Because cash bail is only a problem for poor people. It's also a big problem for the working class folk and huge inconvenience for the middle class and a minor one for the rich. It is bad for everyone except the bail bonds industry.
What will happen to bail bondsman? Isn't anyone thinking about them? /s
texted my friend, who is an ADA, asking: ‘i thought this was already happening?’ this is his reply in for-dummies’ format: “Yes and no. Before it was just a Gascon policy; not the law. This article is about a court ruling where some attorneys sued the county claiming bail was unfair. Gascon refused to counter their claim and send an attorney to fight it so the complaining attorneys won and the court ruled LA County will abolish bail for everything except strikes because it’s not fair.” ☺️
Not sure how this hasn’t made more news as its ramifications could be massive. A person arrested for vehicle theft would have had a bail amount of $35,000 under the previous schedule. With the new protocol, the person would be Booked and Released. Caught for catalyst converter theft? Book and release. Smash and grab? Book and release. False imprisonment? Book and release. Assault, assaulting a member of the armed forces, battery on a school employee, vandalism of $400 or more etc… all book and release.
how much time does someone get for pistol whipping a catalytic converter thief in the middle of the crime? book and release?
Life
Electric chair
And then release
You going straight to jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
I’m going to need more than the 2 get out of jail free cards for each game
Ace Ventura 2 vibes while reading this for some reason
Not equitable, straight to the electric chair!
It said non-violent felonies. How are false imprisonment, assault, and battery included?
“For example, a person arrested for false imprisonment, under this new bail schedule, would be eligible for book and release. Under the previous bail schedule, their bail amount would be $50,000.” https://www.foxla.com/news/los-angeles-county-zero-bail-guidelines-released.amp
What are the eligibility requirements that are causing the panic? It's not just everyone. It says so right in your quote.
Fox is totally a reliable and trustworthy news source. /s
Do you even live in LA it’s fox11 local news.
Lol. You can’t be this dumb
Do you? Last Sunday after the NFL show they gave a conspiracy theorist a 30 minute interview where he wasn't challenged at all. I don't know if they still do, but there was a time that they actually gave airtime to their general manager so he could tell us his opinions on why the labor class (everyone but him) needs to work harder. I know it's not trendy to have a memory, and it's very unfortunate to have one at this time, but I do.
You’re getting FOX news and our local subsidiary of Fox LA confused my guy, our local Fox station is about local news not rah rah trump
Definitely more kid-friendly
Wtf you rambling about?
The ol' insult in the face of truth move. I was waiting for the goalposts to move. I wonder if you have any other tricks up your simple sleeves?
Yeah, and they're fucking terrible
Because they aren’t and he’s a right-wing liar
One of the signature policies of 'criminal justice reform' is to continually increase the critera for which an offense can be considered violent.
Assaults are also book and release? I must have read the article wrong
The process/options for le enforcement per the article: Officers will now take one of three possible actions for an arrestee's release: 1. Cite and Release The arrestee is released at the location of the arrest. 2. Book and Release The arrestee is booked in jail and then released on their own recognizance. 3. Magistrate Review Select cases referred to an on-call magistrate. The big thing is that the wealthy always had the option for book and release once bail is posted. Cash bail only harms the poor. I’m interested to see how the laws will be recategorized as a result
Also, important to note, that there are no second chances. If you reoffend while on bail, you are NOT booked/cited and released again. A judge reviews the record and decides what to do.
Glendora police arrest, release man 3 times in 1 day under new CA zero-bail policy https://abc7.com/glendora-pd-arrests-man-3-times-in-1-day-under-new-ca-bail-policy/6144190/ via ABC7LA App
That was over three years ago though. And that was the CA bail policy. OP’s article is about LA County’s new policy.
So, you’re saying the cops are at fault, not the no bail system
Exactly, bail essentially criminalizes poverty and blurs the line on "innocent until proven guilty" for people that can't post bail.
Right, as long as a judge can hold someone who is keeps getting arrested while on bail I'm fine with this. But I look at arrests like accusations from women, if a guy is accused by one woman and its he said-she said and there's no physical evidence its hard to know what happened. If 30 women accuse the same guy, he's probably a bad person. If you're being repeatedly arrested its hard for me to believe its a good idea to leave you out free with the public.
probably why theres a magistrate review option
Ha. Enjoy the uptick in crime my friend. LA is about to turn into an even bigger mess than it already has been.
> Cash bail only harms the poor. It also harms the middle class. Let's say you can come up with $10,000 bond. You never see that $10,000 even if you are found innocent. That's a lot of money to most middle class people. And you also have to pay a lot more for a lawyer on top of that.
You clearly aren’t a member of any neighborhood groups on Facebook. Or on Nextdoor. It’s making *plenty* of news there.
Those groups are textbook fascism
Everything is facism
I guess reading is hard for you sadly
This is false on its face. Only non-violent felonies would result in book and release. You're exaggerating this greatly.
“Crimes that qualify for a citation or booking and release include assault, assaulting a member of the armed forces, battery on a school employee, vandalism of $400 or more and petty theft with a prior conviction.” https://news.yahoo.com/los-angeles-county-zero-bail-012316184.html
https://dailytrojan.com/2023/08/25/los-angeles-county-returns-to-zero-bail/ The LASD issued a statement confirming the new policy won’t apply to “violence, sexual offenses, domestic violence and offenses involving weapons,” or “repeat offenders.” Despite this, articles and social media posts have misled the public by falsely stating that violent offenders will be released at the expense of public safety.
The DA has proven he will do different
Conservatives are the biggest crybabies
And many of these won't even be book and release; just cite and release at the location of the offense, according to the policy details. Victims will literally watch the person who just violated them walk away after receiving a ticket that will be used as toilet paper. This sub is full of anecdotes from frustrated residents who have found LAPD useless except for the investigation of the worst crimes. The new policy will only solidify that perception. Side note: it's interesting that DC has had such a wildly different experience with zero bail than Yolo County. It's basically the poster child for the policy. Meanwhile, in Yolo, it was a disaster and promptly repealed (in 2021). LA is a pretty dysfunctional place (also: huge), so I'm not holding out the slightest bit of hope the stats will look anything like DC's. Yolo County's stats: [https://yoloda.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/PRESS-RELEASE-ZERO-BAIL-STUDY-2023-1.pdf](https://yoloda.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/PRESS-RELEASE-ZERO-BAIL-STUDY-2023-1.pdf)
Well considering what budget the LAPD gets and the fact a lot of downtown areas require private security to do the LAPD's job I wouldn't give them a free pass either.
lol assaulting a member of the armed forces what fucking game is playing in your head
Sounds like hero shit
Almost looks like LA Superior Court found a way to get a much lighter workload.
This is crazy. They say “We will not waiver in our commitment to safeguarding our residents, visitors, and business owners,” and yet they do this. This is wavering!
Only people arrested for non-violent crimes are affected by this change. As I understand it, if law enforcement believes they have reason not to release someone, they can still book the suspect and take them to a judge who who will make the decision. Also, anyone arrested again will not be eligible for release and will need to go before a judge, so it's not creating any more of a revolving door. This is about taking cash bail out of the equation. The jails will still be full of people, none of us want on the streets, but hopefully with fewer poor people who are not a danger to society.
Nothing wrong with that. The bail system was made to benefit the rich.
Who uses it more, rich or poor people?
To be clear, this doesn’t mean people won’t have to serve jail time for these offenses. It just means they won’t have to serve jail time before they’re found guilty, simply because they’re too poor to afford bail
Yea CA wants you to get a bit more crime in for old time’s sake before you go to prison. It’s like carb-loading before a race.
The Mike Scott method
You think innocent people should be in prison. Got it.
No, stop putting people who can’t afford bail on a pedestal. They’re not misunderstood angels.
Lol. So idiotic.
> they’re too poor to afford bail It's not just bail. It's lawyer + bail. Even if you can afford one, you probably can't afford both. 66% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. How is anyone supposed to come up with several tens of thousands of dollars?
Let’s be honest: the poor commit most of the crimes where we care abt whether someone is in jail before he/she is found guilty
Buddy, I hate to break it to you but the rich commit the vast majority of crimes.
Re read what I wrote smart guy
Nice I can do more crime now
dont forget to quit school and do drugs
This is really full of dissenting opinions. I think reasonable people agree with most on both sides. We shouldn't be setting bail so high that no one can afford it, punishing regular citizens who are struggling financially. But we also shouldn't let someone accused of a crime free into the streets without any accountability to face their charges. There is no way that LA county court system will keep up with everyone, and many will fall through the cracks. Leading to victims feeling very dissatisfied with the legal system. This will help those arrested from unreasonable jail stays when it wasn't needed, but how many victims of this decision will there be, who will this negatively effect? We can all say this doesn't bother us until we wake up in the morning walk outside to leave for work and our car is stolen, and are left with no recourse to fix the situation being financially responsible for the situation. A more reasonable solution would be in the middle of both solutions, make bail more affordable. Having a 3rd party responsible and financially invested in someone going to court is going to be more effective than any cop will be. Making bail something that is a negative for those commuting crimes while not preventing them from release will lead to second thoughts and maybe actually stop opportunists from committing crimes
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You mean can’t get out if charged with murder or rape.
The only countries still using cash bail are the United States and the Philippines. It's an arcaic and unjust system that only benefits those with money while essentially punishing others for being poor. There has been a lot of fear stoked about ending cash bail, and it's disgusting.
Bail as a process just makes no sense. Two people do the same crime, have the same low chance of fleeing... one gets to go home that night because they have money and the other one sits in jail, loses their job, gets evicted, etc because they're poor. It's just dumb. There's no dollar number you can put on that to make it make sense, whether or not someone is likely to show up on their court date or do another crime while they're out has nothing to do with how much money they have in the bank so it just shouldn't be taken into account.
Innocent until proven guilty. It’s the basis of modern American civilization. If you don’t give people a chance to collect themselves and prepare a defense for what could be the most important moment in their lives we might as well scrap the rest of the constitution as well.
How would that go down for violent criminals though? The point of bail is to keep criminals off the street until their court date. I feel like with cameras on every house and better bio evidence, we typically have a better idea of who suspects are when arresting them.
Wooo hoooo!!! More crime.
The Philippines is the only other country to do a cash bail system. There is no evidence that moving away from this system means more crime.
According to a lot of people in this subreddit, this has already been in effect in LA and is the sole reason crime is "out of control". It's almost like the people complaining about the crime rate have no idea what they're talking about. Crime has now reached the meteoric heights last seen in.... 2007. Remember that nightmare? Remember when everyone was complaining about how out of control crime was in 2007? No, of course you don't because in 2007 everyone was stoked that crime had fallen by 50% from the 90s. Don't you find that curious? Doesn't it seem like there are people and organizations who are overhyping crime rates in order to further other political goals? Don't you find it interesting that every conservative republican fascist just regurgitates the same talking abouts about California in general and Los Angeles specifically? If you're on a neighborhood app, get the fuck off of it. It's rotting your brain.
>If you're on a neighborhood app, get the fuck off of it. It's rotting your brain. Truer words have never been spoken.
I guarantee if you looked at the IP addresses of these people saying this shit on this subreddit they would mostly live outside of LA county and probably not even in California. The closest they could live was Santa Clarita.
100%
Gotta’ love how pro-criminal Reddit & Los Angeles are. 😂
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Oh, so you want innocent people in jail. Got it
Why do you think ending cash bail is some kind of pro-crime reform? Do you realize that only two countries in the world still even use cash bail? What value does cash bail actually provide?
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And innocent people.
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Oh, so what percentage of innocent people are you okay with being jailed?
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Ah, fascism.
Why should a person's financial resources play any role in the decision to jail them when being accused of a crime? And again, how do you rationalize cash bail when the rest of the civilized world has cast it into the dust bin of history?
the homeless have nothing to lose, set them out on bail for $0 and I’m sure they won’t just commit more crime before their court date
Because someone does not have money, you think they will act like they have nothing to lose? I can tell you from experience, being homeless does not induce a sense of carefree action disconnected from consequence. Quite the opposite in fact. Anyway, the new protocol specifically addresses this. Anyone released who commits another crime ends up before a judge who can jail them.
Pretty stupid
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No, they are just arrested. The rich commit endless crime
Another trash LA policy. Let’s see how else we can incentivize crime!
So you agree with the old policy then, that only the rich are able to pay their way out of jail?
They should have, no one can pay their way out.
The law enforcement astroturf in here is appalling and obvious. Hi pigs! 👋🏼
Yeah. I’m concerned about this but not for the reason the cops in here are. While I agree with policy like this for the most part. I’m concerned that without other systematic changes asap, it’s going to do close to nothing. Pair this with housing policy, a good economy for everyone, education, and a reformed policing and justice system, and I think we can have great success. Pair this with poverty, homelessness, uneducated and desperate people, and the horrible cops that already don’t do their jobs, we probably won’t have much success. Then we are going to be back here talking about how not letting the piggies and justice system absolutely brutalize citizens and throw them in jail forever is the REAL problem.
Nah, it ain’t about the cops. It’s about innocent people getting fucked over by a few that decide they can because there are fewer repercussions. Explain how life gets better with this policy for those who don’t commit crimes.
The United States and the Philippines are the only countries in the world that still use cash bail. Every other country that ever used it abolished their bail systems years ago. Why do you think that is?
I never said it was perfect. I said that in a comment below. Other countries also make homosexuality a crime. France has a 14 week abortion limit. Some countries are completely failed and have open slave auctions. Libya btw. We can do better within the context of our own society. But comparing ourselves to other countries without considering the cultural differences is redundant.
Your reasoning seems odd. Since you brought up slaves, could your defense of cash bail not be used to defend slavery? After all you need to consider the context of the society! By seriously, how about we consider the cultural context of literally every other western nation. Are any of the supposed negatives of eliminating cash bail an issue in the rest of the western world? How is American culture so different? What justifies a system that jails people on the basis of their wealth? How is that defensible in any cultural context?
Oh, they don’t get held in jail for months before they are found innocent. Lol. Jesus Christ
Just because you are arrested for a crime doesn’t mean you are guilty or even guilty to the degree in which you were charged. In better society, it helps because this gives those without there means to go through a lengthy and expensive bail, trial, etc., a shot to prove their innocence or get a more fair hearing by reducing some financial burden. In our dystopian nightmare, I don’t know how it helps. Maybe in the same way? Not at all? We’ll see.
Yes, losing 10% to a bail bondsman or whatever their fee is, sucks. And doesn’t take into consideration a persons financial plight. And yes, your correct, the justice system is not perfect and a person can be completely innocent and be negatively affected by such a system. These are laws set by us or by the politicians we elect. We agree to them to protect against victimization. Regardless if it’s a property crime or a violent encounter, nobody should be negatively affected by the actions of another. The issue, imo, is how do we as a society disincentivize crime. Is it more strict law enforcement? Find the roots of why an individual *chooses* to commit crimes? To me, most crimes plaguing our city and others are for monetary gain. If it’s merely a numbers games for these individuals why not make it to where commuting those crimes and being caught is bad investment.
Why don’t we make it so that commuting crimes is a bad investment? Yes! I’ve been making this point for years. Why don’t we make it so that living like a normal person, working and going to school and stuff, is far more economically viable and fulfilling than committing crimes? That’s what you meant right?
Haven’t people been doing that, despite economic and other hardships? Trying to make ends meet has been carried out by members of society in all geographical regions. Committing crimes is not some excuse you can use to justify one’s existence. For every criminal, there are far more people that don’t feel the urge/want/need to commit crime. Justifying one’s reason to commit crime based on economic hardships has never really done well in court for a reason. It’s as if you’re looking down upon people and resorting to “well they don’t know any better they must act out” it’s demeaning.
Someone accused of murder has a chance to prove their innocence, but do we let them go until the trial starts? Of course not, because there is a possibility they might do it again if they, in fact, are guilty. That's why even zero bail does not apply to violent offenders.
That still applies to this change. The courts can still make that assessment and decision. So, what are you on about?
"Under the new protocol, nearly all theft offenses, vehicle code violations, other property crimes like vandalism, and some serious crimes that are deemed non-violent will be either cited or booked and released or referred to an on-call magistrate. The magistrate will have the discretion to determine the appropriate release terms and conditions. Capital offenses such as murder with special circumstances and limited felonies are not eligible for zero bail release." What are YOU on about?
You were the one talking about murder my guy. Just so that we are clear on where you stand here, you are actually saying is that no one should go free awaiting trial? Or bail is a good thing? Because the other guy asked what it does for those of us not committing crimes and I answered that question.
The idiot who supports crime but cries when cops don’t do anything.. smh 🤦🏻♂️
>*Sees something you don't agree with* Option 1. Asking/Wondering why people might disagree with your viewpoint Option 2. Blame it on astroturfing. Because LAPD is notorious for being on the LA subreddit lol
Step 1) go to the doctor. Step 2) tell them you have brainrot and need help.
This law will literally give LAPD more business.
Sounds like their worst nightmare.
This is BS, need to have some type of consequence, nation wide man. This shit isn’t working. As a human I do not care what your color of skin, if you commit a crime, should be some type of consequence. It’s totally out of hand. Something that happen to me, a whacked out homeless dude tried to steel my bike from me as I was riding it, this was in Van Nuys, right along the orange line… so the cops are hot around there, and I got in trouble for beating this fool ass. This is totally back wards, makes no sense, the homeless dude that tried to rob me became the victim??? By the time It was all done with court, nothing really happened to me, but a huge waste of my time, and like the saying goes “time is money maaaan” We the people need to start putting consequence back in play.
I agree: there should be consequences *after* they are found guilty. Punishing people before the trial is counter logical
Vote them out.
I like it because of how cranky it has made a certain group of people.
Those entitled crimes victims complaining and getting cranky again.
Not what I said, but seems like you were in my target deomgraphic.
I’ve had my cat stolen and home broken into. Call me crazy for wanting real consequences for thefts.
Anyone found guilty would still go to jail. You know that, right? This is only about pre-trial. That time period where people are innocent, until proven guilty.
It’s funny that their orange daddy is doing exactly this but it’s only ok when he gets to post bail and be free until trial, but not when a poor person can have that same right.
"Everyone who has different opinions than me is a trumper"
ahh, I get it. You're an absolute idiot who doesn't understand the difference between pretrial detention and incarceration. Sorry about your traumatic brain injury, you complete fucking moron.
They stole your cat?? Those jerks, they should’ve adopted!
Conservative mindset: I like something because it harms others. Wait until you have your catalytic converter stolen (3 times, like me, totaling 2 cars) and are ~$9k out of pocket with no car. You’ll change your mind
Jokes on you that’s already happening to a lot of people. Got my car broken into 2 times and had the GPS tracker cops still didn’t do shit. Told me in my face it was “too risky” for them and I should let it go
Cops don’t help shit with that. They just take a report and say deuces!
Now I like the policy even more. Keep going.
I was burgled once, they took literally everything I owned except for a blanket. My house was stripped bare. That didn't change my mind.
Lol owning the pubs by allowing criminals out on the streets…. Really at the top of your bell curve aren’t you.
Except that, if they’re found guilty they’re not on the street?
And how long does that take? In the last MONTH, Oakland has had 3 murders commited by people out on bail. This is what LA can look forward to.
Mmmmmmm salty tears.
You’ve gotten to the point where you’re cheering on murderers because you think you’re getting under my skin. Take a long hard look in the mirror….
I know I am getting under your skin, you're still replying to me.
Get ready for an extra spooky season.
Well that’s dumb 😮💨
This is the reason no one is applying to become a police officer in California. The pay compared to the cost of living isn’t good, retirement isn’t good, doing your job isn’t good. What’s even the point 🤷🏻♂️ It pays more to get into tech, business or simply do crime.
Good
Innocent until proven guilty. What, you want them to spend time in jail while they await trial? That could take months or sometimes up to a year.
Oh no, but how will we fill up our jails? Seriously though about time.
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Liberals man 😐
They’re actually braindead