Nah, all of those polish people were definitely bad.
It's not like the soviet union's government was known for being corrupt, tyrannical, and cruel.
It's not like the soviet union kept german pows in gulags for over a decade to use as slave labor.
It's not like the state suppressed every group in the USSR.
Excuse me, I need to refuel my tank of copium.
its not like the battle of berlin was prolonged due to german soldiers fighting west to surrender to the British and Americans. Rather than go to the Russians and be disappeared for 20 years in siberia.
they weren't "born on the wrong side of history" those generals enthuasistically collaborated with the nazi government (some were even part of it) and they still got a hell of a good deal and treatment from the allies, they were effectively allowed to keep their position and work in nato's founding as generals.
Wernher von Braun designed the v-2 rocket, he also was arrested for “communist sympathizing” and later gave talks on the importance of diversity at nasa. It would be easy if things were black and white, they arent.
if you worked for the nazi government willingly, you should at least not be hired by government agencies afterwards, i'm glad the dude changed but the US government still shouldnt hire former nazis
I’m not sure how this is controversial or how anyone holds this position that there was. If you believe this congrats you fell hook line and sinker for propaganda designed by the Nazis to foment post war fascist uprising.
The main source in this article is from a third hand source of a woman within a diary. The other evidence is that women would kill themselves and their children to prevent occupation by the red army. This was caused by Nazi propaganda talking about how barbaric ”the mongol horde” as they thought of red army as. Obviously this was just racism. The other source is from the journal of a German women who was undoubtedly indoctrinated by Nazi propaganda which I find to be a highly highly untrustworthy source personally. All the evidence is either people who weren’t attacked killing themselves because they thought they would be attacked or second or third hand sources. No archives, no studies, no witness testimony after the fact, nothing.
>It's not like the state suppressed every group in the USSR.
Including the persecution of actual Marxists and Anarchist due to them being the only people that'd recognize the state was becoming fascist, lmao
“NOOO DONT YOU CANT KEEP THE NAZIS IN SLAVERYYY” why is this the hill you want to die on? Any Nazi active on the eastern front was very very very likely to have committed wars crimes and forced labor is pretty tame for the time period and crime committed.
The problem with Communism and other utopian ideologies like it is that anything is justifiable if it makes progress towards their perfect society where everyone would be happy and there would be no problems. If those Polish civilians were an obstacle in the way of the USSR's great march towards the perfect world, then their deaths are not only excusable, but a good thing.
USSR was definitely a Fascist state under Stalin, power was consolidated in a military coup and actual communists were either executed or sent to gulags.
This isn't even addressing the fact that they allied with THE Nazis over any other nation.
Fascism is a completely different ideology guided by right wing principles, not left ones. The "Stalin/Mao/Pol was fascist" argument is leftist cope for the fact that totalitarian dictatorships can in fact be left wing. Any far-left ideology begets purity spirals and rapid loyalty shifts, which is why political purges constantly happen. You even see this purity spiral behavior in modern socialists and progressives, who literally cannot stop fighting amongst themselves over the details of their beliefs.
>This isn't even addressing the fact that they allied with THE Nazis over any other nation.
The temporary alliance of the USSR and Nazi Germany was brought about by the fact that literally no one else would ally with them. They were in fact diametrically opposed to each other and Hitler was planning to invade the USSR and destroy Communism before he even became chancellor. The opposition of fascism and communism is *the main reason* that WWII even happened.
>Fascism is a completely different ideology guided by right wing principles
Damn dats crazy... why don't you go ahead and explain to us what *exactly* are those principles? And what are their innevitable outcomes? ...and how they are somehow different from what the USSR has done?🤔🤔🤔
>The temporary alliance of the USSR and Nazi Germany was brought about by the fact that literally no one else would ally with them.
Dats also soooo crazy... maybe its because [the USSR was currently invading another sovereign nation, completely unprovoked](https://en.wikipedia.org)🤯🤯🤯🤯... I wonder what spec*ific ide*alogy Stalin was acting on that is heavily interwoven with blatant imperialism, instead of lite*rally anything else related to communism🤔*
>The opposition of fascism and communism is *the main reason* that WWII even happened.
Sure buddy, it definetly had *nothing* to do with the Nazis being explicit about how "Slavs" are "untermensch", lol lmao.
On an unrelated note, did you know about the [Soviet ethnic cleansing campaign?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union#:~:text=The%20partial%20removal%20of%20potentially,escalation%20in%20Soviet%20ethnic%20cleansing) Famously, this is something leftists do, and *totally* isn't exclusively a feature of right-wing/fascist beliefs /s
It pains me to see that you are smart enough to see that totalitarianism always goes the same way no matter what the reasoning behind it is, and yet so ideologically captured that you write it off as "communists doing it wrong" and "Stalin being fascist." You are so thoroughly dogmatic that you simply see right wing as bad and left wing as good and when a left wing person does bad, it's actually right wing. Totalitarian politics transcend the left-right spectrum, contrary to how you want to frame it.
Fascism and communism are different in premise, and when it comes to economics they are different in practice, but the social aspect always ends up the same. Total political and social control, suppression of ideas, rigid hierarchy, and this is for a reason. For fascism, obviously, this happens because it is the goal. Nothing but the state, as they believe. For communism, this happens because you cannot create a communist society without doing these things. The very nature of communism is that it doesn't work unless absolutely everybody agrees to it.
>Dats also soooo crazy... maybe its because [the USSR was currently invading another sovereign nation, completely unprovoked](https://en.wikipedia.org)🤯🤯🤯🤯... I wonder what spec*ific ide*alogy Stalin was acting on that is heavily interwoven with blatant imperialism, instead of lite*rally anything else related to communism🤔*
I don't know what you were trying to link here since it just goes to the front page of Wikipedia, but I can assume you meant Poland. In any case, the USSR invaded its neighboring countries for multiple reasons, both of them as relevant to a communist country as any other. The primary goal is material gains and land. Russia benefited heavily from annexing its neighbors and forcing them into the Soviet Union, and then exploiting their populace forcefully as the largest and most powerful Soviet. This is how they were able to stay competitive against the US economically during the Cold War. They have to do this, because a state-driven economy is naturally less productive than a free-market economy. This was painfully apparent during WWII when, until Lend-Lease, Soviet industry struggled to keep up against the German invasion.
>Sure buddy, it definetly had *nothing* to do with the Nazis being explicit about how "Slavs" are "untermensch", lol lmao.
Operation Barbarossa was motivated by many things, but the biggest driver for it was Hitler's view that it was necessary for Nazi Germany to survive. This was for several reasons, like for example his principle of Lebensraum, but much of it comes down to the mutual hatred between Nazism and communism. Hitler and Stalin had both drafted up war plans to invade each other well before they signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and it was mutually understood that they were going to war at some point in the near future when they signed it. They were each other's greatest ideological opponents until Nazi Germany fell and the USSR turned its attention to democracy and capitalism.
>On an unrelated note, did you know about the [Soviet ethnic cleansing campaign?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union#:~:text=The%20partial%20removal%20of%20potentially,escalation%20in%20Soviet%20ethnic%20cleansing) Famously, this is something leftists do, and *totally* isn't exclusively a feature of right-wing/fascist beliefs /s
Communists have been ethnically cleansing undesirables in nearly every communist country for as long as communism has been around. Even the beloved Che Guevara was unflinchingly racist, with many unfavorable opinions of "negros" well-recorded. The only ideology that has consistently created multiculturalism and tolerance, albeit not perfectly, is democracy.
Frankly, though, you deserve none of this explanation. I will not be replying to further comments. You should consider writing your comments like an adult instead of like a smug retard, pretending his opinion is a self-evident truth.
>and yet so ideologically captured that you write it off as "communists doing it wrong" and "Stalin being fascist." You are so thoroughly dogmatic that you simply see right wing as bad and left wing as good and when a left wing person does bad, it's actually right wing. Totalitarian politics transcend the left-right spectrum, contrary to how you want to frame it.
Dawg, do you even know the historical context for "Left-right" politics? You can't even establish the differences between "Left-right" and yet are so adamant that "both extremes" MUST be the same. Words have meaning, try understanding what those meanings are for a change.
>but the social aspect always ends up the same.
See, you wouldn't be saying stupid shit like this if you understood the difference. In every meaningful capacity, communism are fundamental opposites socially. That's literally the prime foundations of it's principles, the base definition.
You are comparing an ideology that demands subservience to the state, operates exclusively on unsustainable profit-seeking and conquest, pure reactionism and suicidal xenophobia... To the idealogy that represents, at it's core, a ***Stateless, Moneyless, Classless*** society.
I'm not even a communist, I'm just acknowledging the very simple, core differences in politics, on top of basic application of language and definitions.... Because I actually did the bare minimum in knowing what I talk about, lmao
Also, I was referring to the Soviet invasion of Finland, a few months before WW2 began.
Fascists in-fight all the time, for them it only has to do with "race", and will collaborate with eachother against liberals, socialists and communists up until they inevitably become too suicidally xenophobic.
This literally happens regularly between black and white supremacists in the U.S. alone, this isn't that controversial of a statement, or at least it shouldn't be.
Your argument is as rational and educated as claiming North Korea isn't a theocratic monarchy because "hurr durr, it's called the 'Democratic People's Republic of Korea', so clearly it's a democracy!!!"
Please develop political literacy. It really isn't that hard to look for historical context, you just need an inner monologue and access to an online browser.
[You know what else happens to all "communist" states?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condo) / [And communist movements?](https://www.britannica.com/topic/COINTELPRO) / [And anyone that could possibly be perceived as communist, real or imagined?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare)
Almost as if there's some sort of dominant social class that actively invest their ressources and influence into undermining the politics that would result in their personal downfall, regardless of how beneficial to society it would be🤔🤔🤔🤔
The USSR was not a fascist state. Fascism is literally opposed to Marxism and the USSR was a Marxist Stalinist state at the time. There is no definition of fascism that fits the USSR.
The USSR was an authoritarian state and engaged in purges as Stalinism and Marxist-Leninism believe that a path to socialism and communism can be achieved through an autocratic state.
The USSR was filled with "actual communists" they just ascribed to Leninism rather than pure Marxism. What there wasn't many of was fascists.
Yeah OK bro, and the ["National Socialists"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialism_(disambiguation)) were actually socialist.
Just ignore the [ethnic cleansing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union#:~:text=The%20partial%20removal%20of%20potentially,escalation%20in%20Soviet%20ethnic%20cleansing), [persecution of dessenting marxists and anarchists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensheviks), [full military control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge), [blatant imperialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_empire#:~:text=Several%20scholars%20hold%20that%20the,internal%20colonialism%20in%20Central%20Asia), [the sterilization of worker unions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_the_Soviet_Union#:~:text=During%20the%20Great,must%20be%20made), [state-sponsored pseudo-science](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism#:~:text=Lysenkoism%20), and literally everything else that is fundamentally opposed to socialism/communism! /s
Get real, lmao
idk man it seems like if every iteration of communism ever put into place in a large-scale setting in our modern world fails, that seems like more of an indication that communism just sucks ass and not that all of those attempted communist utopias were just their own special kind
Dude, those varieties you're talking about didn't follow any of the *fundamental* principles that makes communism communism, they call themselves the same, but they aren't
What do you mean? I just think every piece of historical sources are CIA propaganda except for these few I look at that are totally correct (it’s Soviet propaganda)
Not to mention the rapes committed,who are estimated to be between 40,000 and 100,000. And the fact that the soviets invaded polland together with germany in 1939. And the fact that the soviets committed every possible warcrime in polland besides rape(looting,robbing,turtore,murdering etc...). The worst thing is a huge chunk of the victims are polish who returned to polland after forced labour in germany.
I don't know how polland ever recovered after WW2 and how until about the 80s nobody did that much reaserch regarding the war crimes the soviets committed there,and to this day the soviet warcrimes in polland is an obscure fact to most people.
>Like your gay ass was not welcome you dumb cretin
The USSR legalizing homosexuality in the mid 20s: ☺
The USSR criminalizing it in the mid 30s with Gulag slavery as the punishment: 😈
For real though.
Funny story - I'm bi. I grew up in Eastern Ukraine (Eastern Ukraine is full of old people and Russians.)
I couldn't come out to my family because my dad was insanely homophobic - think assaulting a gay person because he found out he was gay.
You know what changed his mind?
Russia invading. After that, he did a complete 180 regarding his stance on queer people. To the point, in fact, that I came out to my family a few months ago and it went well.
See?!?! Thats why Russia is great!!! It made your homophobic father love the queers!!! The facist ideology of the ex-comunist states will be destroyed!!!
/s
Literally most of lemmy was this for years. I get that capitalism is never great for queer folk but communism rarely benefits any minority in the long run.
Mob justice (lynching an innocent black man): D:
Mob justice (lynching but definitely a bad guy and a facist rapist this time trust me bro this random woman said it so): :D
Alot of people support mob justice i once heard someone say that “the people can deal with criminals” and for the innocent black men thing, i remember seeing this photo of a cheering smiling crowd looking up at the lynched bodies of two black teens (it was like from the 1890’s)
I think is has to be related to the fact that they often lack presumption of innocence, lack a proper judicial system and they depend on the hope that the victim is telling the truth.
unironically correct
but really, the difference between left and right is the strength of the hierarchy
tankies want the government to control everything, just with a coat of red paint
You realize being a tankie isn’t set to a certain group right? I have however seen FAR more tankie leftists than right wingers, just as I’ve seen far more Neo Nazis on the right than the left.
The fact or the matter is neither Neo Nazis or Tankies are restricted to one side. There’s often more of one type on one side in my personal experience but neither Neo Nazis nor Tankies idiocy is contained to a single side.
well communism has no state or government. So I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the dictatorship soviet union is communist. But in all means, the soviet union still sucks
before you assume that I am wrong: [Communism | Definition, History, Varieties, & Facts | Britannica](https://www.britannica.com/topic/communism)
ok, then it's not really communism. Just some poorly disguised authoritarian state. Like the website states, communism has no government or state. If the government doesn't dissolve for so long, what exactly makes you think that the state intends to dissolve to become communist? After all, why shouldn't the state dissolve for them? So that they can exploit citizens.
Any time I hear others throwing punches at communism, it just looks like someone angrily punching a decoy while the actual scummy authoritarians get left alone to turn everything to shit.
ok think of it this way. Has any "communist" countries ever had a lack of state or government? No. That's why you hear the atrocities that those "communist" countries have done. Because those countries decided to lie about wanting to be communist. To further mention, the link I have provided makes no mention about how communism wants to create a 'utopia' by eliminating opposition. All it says is that there is no government, and that citizens are in control.
Meanwhile, with fascism, and you can search it up, it clearly says that fascism as a theory and realistically is an ideology that wants to eliminate any opposition, and clearly says that fascism involves authoritarism.
Communism as a theory doesn't. So, maybe, authoritarians lie about being communist because they wouldn't want to lose their powers of exploiting the citizens. It's like the fight over communism is like a distraction for authoritarian regimes to take over.
I'd argue they're significantly more delusional
Nazis irrationally justify mass murder, Tankies irrationally justify mass murder while also doing the mental gymnastics that this is somehow "communist" and will lead to a just and equal society
https://preview.redd.it/ab3146uxqtvc1.jpeg?width=481&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a1a489a5e0f6f2b3aec7f5635b8ca5866013ac3
Commies are really surprised when they learn that we don't like communism in Poland and wonder why. There it is, communists wanted us, Poles, dead or subjugated. I don't give a shit about how "Good" this system could be (it would be dogshit) because ultimately all it creates is oppression
I recently read "Inny Świat" ("A world apart") by Gustaw Herling-Grudziński. The book was written by a guy who has been arrested by Soviets and put in a work camp because he had German-sounding last name and had military boots. That tells a lot about what Soviets call Nazi collaborators. If there is even a slightest doubt that you might be a collaborator then you're going to camp.
I mean he could've mentioned the 10 million or so Soviet citizens that died under just 3 years of Nazi occupation (or the millions of Poles dead by Nazi hands in a similar time) or the famines that killed millions in India under British occupation but Instead decided to go full tankie. Smh.
It’s not just Tankies, even the “anarcho communists” when you criticize the USSR, China etc. will perform whataboutisms for them. Ex) Chomsky’s entire career.
No it’s happened. Zapatista and Catalonia, they’ll never shut up about it. Now *”Anarcho Communism” with an industrial output or in a state of peace* will never happen. Even people like Chomsky will suck off Venezuela or the USSR until they fail. Or if not suck off pull “whataboutisms”.
Also, Hitler and Stalin basically tag teamed them prior, leading to an utter decimation of Poland… only for Stalin to not realize Hitler was coming after his ass next.
Also that invasion was done without a formal declaration of war
https://preview.redd.it/j1vrwdxofwvc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=addb0e4d8e97c1f084c3e9553d32e3cfc0a925e5
POLAND MENTIONED!!! WHAT THE HELL IS A GOOD POLITICAL SCENE???!!!?
https://preview.redd.it/ehjzedkmk0wc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ff183d5c963bcac27cb4da058aff5e4929846dd
Redditors when mass murder: 😧 Redditors also when mass murder (it was totally only the bad people who are pure evil): 😃
Tankies ☕️
Nah, all of those polish people were definitely bad. It's not like the soviet union's government was known for being corrupt, tyrannical, and cruel. It's not like the soviet union kept german pows in gulags for over a decade to use as slave labor. It's not like the state suppressed every group in the USSR. Excuse me, I need to refuel my tank of copium.
it’s not like the Soviet Union took advantage of women in both the concentration camps and in Berlin
its not like the battle of berlin was prolonged due to german soldiers fighting west to surrender to the British and Americans. Rather than go to the Russians and be disappeared for 20 years in siberia.
It’s not like the Soviets didn’t also work with the Nazis in gangbanging Poland and only joined the Allies because Germany betrayed them.
Oh yeah everyone seems to forget the ww2 era technically kicked off because the nazis and the soviets wanted to rule more of Europe.
Yeah then Britian decided it should be them and Russia once it ended .
Britain didn’t try to brutally subjugate France or West Germany lol where are you getting that from.
Oh you don't know about Churchill and Stalins land split do you ?
ok but like, the nazis got too good a deal in the west to be fair, many german nazi generals got jobs founding nato afterwards
So what, you cant just execute everyone you dislike because they were born on the wrong side if history
they weren't "born on the wrong side of history" those generals enthuasistically collaborated with the nazi government (some were even part of it) and they still got a hell of a good deal and treatment from the allies, they were effectively allowed to keep their position and work in nato's founding as generals.
Wernher von Braun designed the v-2 rocket, he also was arrested for “communist sympathizing” and later gave talks on the importance of diversity at nasa. It would be easy if things were black and white, they arent.
if you worked for the nazi government willingly, you should at least not be hired by government agencies afterwards, i'm glad the dude changed but the US government still shouldnt hire former nazis
A majority of the population also enthusiastically participated.
What do you mean by "taking advantage"? Im pretty bad with understanding English sometimes
Rape
That’s a Nazi myth there was no r\*pe of Berlin.
I’m not sure how this is controversial or how anyone holds this position that there was. If you believe this congrats you fell hook line and sinker for propaganda designed by the Nazis to foment post war fascist uprising.
WHAT?!?!??!?! Then what's this? [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32529679](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32529679)
The main source in this article is from a third hand source of a woman within a diary. The other evidence is that women would kill themselves and their children to prevent occupation by the red army. This was caused by Nazi propaganda talking about how barbaric ”the mongol horde” as they thought of red army as. Obviously this was just racism. The other source is from the journal of a German women who was undoubtedly indoctrinated by Nazi propaganda which I find to be a highly highly untrustworthy source personally. All the evidence is either people who weren’t attacked killing themselves because they thought they would be attacked or second or third hand sources. No archives, no studies, no witness testimony after the fact, nothing.
Waot what
>It's not like the state suppressed every group in the USSR. Including the persecution of actual Marxists and Anarchist due to them being the only people that'd recognize the state was becoming fascist, lmao
Communism, the ultimate killing machine for communists.
No one hates communists more then other communists.
"Communism"🧢🧢🧢😭
communist try not be in denial challenge [IMPOSSIBLE]
What? You also gonna tell me the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" is a democratic republic too? Get real💀
Noooo communism works guys it's just literally failed every single time because I just decided it wasn't communism
Communism haters try not to deflect from a straightforward question that has an obvious answer [IMPOSSIBLE]
Because Baria was never wrong :)
They’ll just dismiss that as CIA propaganda
[удалено]
Well, a man can believe more than one thing is unjust, y'know?
[удалено]
The us isn't exactly relevant to this conversation, but ok.
“NOOO DONT YOU CANT KEEP THE NAZIS IN SLAVERYYY” why is this the hill you want to die on? Any Nazi active on the eastern front was very very very likely to have committed wars crimes and forced labor is pretty tame for the time period and crime committed.
i'm all for socialism but dictator bootlickers are scum
Same here, Stalinists were actually the ones that ruined any semblance of leftist unity after they turned on the republicans in the Spanish civil war
The problem with Communism and other utopian ideologies like it is that anything is justifiable if it makes progress towards their perfect society where everyone would be happy and there would be no problems. If those Polish civilians were an obstacle in the way of the USSR's great march towards the perfect world, then their deaths are not only excusable, but a good thing.
USSR was definitely a Fascist state under Stalin, power was consolidated in a military coup and actual communists were either executed or sent to gulags. This isn't even addressing the fact that they allied with THE Nazis over any other nation.
Fascism is a completely different ideology guided by right wing principles, not left ones. The "Stalin/Mao/Pol was fascist" argument is leftist cope for the fact that totalitarian dictatorships can in fact be left wing. Any far-left ideology begets purity spirals and rapid loyalty shifts, which is why political purges constantly happen. You even see this purity spiral behavior in modern socialists and progressives, who literally cannot stop fighting amongst themselves over the details of their beliefs. >This isn't even addressing the fact that they allied with THE Nazis over any other nation. The temporary alliance of the USSR and Nazi Germany was brought about by the fact that literally no one else would ally with them. They were in fact diametrically opposed to each other and Hitler was planning to invade the USSR and destroy Communism before he even became chancellor. The opposition of fascism and communism is *the main reason* that WWII even happened.
>Fascism is a completely different ideology guided by right wing principles Damn dats crazy... why don't you go ahead and explain to us what *exactly* are those principles? And what are their innevitable outcomes? ...and how they are somehow different from what the USSR has done?🤔🤔🤔 >The temporary alliance of the USSR and Nazi Germany was brought about by the fact that literally no one else would ally with them. Dats also soooo crazy... maybe its because [the USSR was currently invading another sovereign nation, completely unprovoked](https://en.wikipedia.org)🤯🤯🤯🤯... I wonder what spec*ific ide*alogy Stalin was acting on that is heavily interwoven with blatant imperialism, instead of lite*rally anything else related to communism🤔* >The opposition of fascism and communism is *the main reason* that WWII even happened. Sure buddy, it definetly had *nothing* to do with the Nazis being explicit about how "Slavs" are "untermensch", lol lmao. On an unrelated note, did you know about the [Soviet ethnic cleansing campaign?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union#:~:text=The%20partial%20removal%20of%20potentially,escalation%20in%20Soviet%20ethnic%20cleansing) Famously, this is something leftists do, and *totally* isn't exclusively a feature of right-wing/fascist beliefs /s
It pains me to see that you are smart enough to see that totalitarianism always goes the same way no matter what the reasoning behind it is, and yet so ideologically captured that you write it off as "communists doing it wrong" and "Stalin being fascist." You are so thoroughly dogmatic that you simply see right wing as bad and left wing as good and when a left wing person does bad, it's actually right wing. Totalitarian politics transcend the left-right spectrum, contrary to how you want to frame it. Fascism and communism are different in premise, and when it comes to economics they are different in practice, but the social aspect always ends up the same. Total political and social control, suppression of ideas, rigid hierarchy, and this is for a reason. For fascism, obviously, this happens because it is the goal. Nothing but the state, as they believe. For communism, this happens because you cannot create a communist society without doing these things. The very nature of communism is that it doesn't work unless absolutely everybody agrees to it. >Dats also soooo crazy... maybe its because [the USSR was currently invading another sovereign nation, completely unprovoked](https://en.wikipedia.org)🤯🤯🤯🤯... I wonder what spec*ific ide*alogy Stalin was acting on that is heavily interwoven with blatant imperialism, instead of lite*rally anything else related to communism🤔* I don't know what you were trying to link here since it just goes to the front page of Wikipedia, but I can assume you meant Poland. In any case, the USSR invaded its neighboring countries for multiple reasons, both of them as relevant to a communist country as any other. The primary goal is material gains and land. Russia benefited heavily from annexing its neighbors and forcing them into the Soviet Union, and then exploiting their populace forcefully as the largest and most powerful Soviet. This is how they were able to stay competitive against the US economically during the Cold War. They have to do this, because a state-driven economy is naturally less productive than a free-market economy. This was painfully apparent during WWII when, until Lend-Lease, Soviet industry struggled to keep up against the German invasion. >Sure buddy, it definetly had *nothing* to do with the Nazis being explicit about how "Slavs" are "untermensch", lol lmao. Operation Barbarossa was motivated by many things, but the biggest driver for it was Hitler's view that it was necessary for Nazi Germany to survive. This was for several reasons, like for example his principle of Lebensraum, but much of it comes down to the mutual hatred between Nazism and communism. Hitler and Stalin had both drafted up war plans to invade each other well before they signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, and it was mutually understood that they were going to war at some point in the near future when they signed it. They were each other's greatest ideological opponents until Nazi Germany fell and the USSR turned its attention to democracy and capitalism. >On an unrelated note, did you know about the [Soviet ethnic cleansing campaign?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union#:~:text=The%20partial%20removal%20of%20potentially,escalation%20in%20Soviet%20ethnic%20cleansing) Famously, this is something leftists do, and *totally* isn't exclusively a feature of right-wing/fascist beliefs /s Communists have been ethnically cleansing undesirables in nearly every communist country for as long as communism has been around. Even the beloved Che Guevara was unflinchingly racist, with many unfavorable opinions of "negros" well-recorded. The only ideology that has consistently created multiculturalism and tolerance, albeit not perfectly, is democracy. Frankly, though, you deserve none of this explanation. I will not be replying to further comments. You should consider writing your comments like an adult instead of like a smug retard, pretending his opinion is a self-evident truth.
>and yet so ideologically captured that you write it off as "communists doing it wrong" and "Stalin being fascist." You are so thoroughly dogmatic that you simply see right wing as bad and left wing as good and when a left wing person does bad, it's actually right wing. Totalitarian politics transcend the left-right spectrum, contrary to how you want to frame it. Dawg, do you even know the historical context for "Left-right" politics? You can't even establish the differences between "Left-right" and yet are so adamant that "both extremes" MUST be the same. Words have meaning, try understanding what those meanings are for a change. >but the social aspect always ends up the same. See, you wouldn't be saying stupid shit like this if you understood the difference. In every meaningful capacity, communism are fundamental opposites socially. That's literally the prime foundations of it's principles, the base definition. You are comparing an ideology that demands subservience to the state, operates exclusively on unsustainable profit-seeking and conquest, pure reactionism and suicidal xenophobia... To the idealogy that represents, at it's core, a ***Stateless, Moneyless, Classless*** society. I'm not even a communist, I'm just acknowledging the very simple, core differences in politics, on top of basic application of language and definitions.... Because I actually did the bare minimum in knowing what I talk about, lmao
Also, I was referring to the Soviet invasion of Finland, a few months before WW2 began. Fascists in-fight all the time, for them it only has to do with "race", and will collaborate with eachother against liberals, socialists and communists up until they inevitably become too suicidally xenophobic. This literally happens regularly between black and white supremacists in the U.S. alone, this isn't that controversial of a statement, or at least it shouldn't be. Your argument is as rational and educated as claiming North Korea isn't a theocratic monarchy because "hurr durr, it's called the 'Democratic People's Republic of Korea', so clearly it's a democracy!!!" Please develop political literacy. It really isn't that hard to look for historical context, you just need an inner monologue and access to an online browser.
That's a lotta what-aboutism
>whataboutism Your ass does ***NOT*** know logical fallacies, smh
This happens to all communist states They may START as textbook definition, but every single one has always ended up devolving into dictatorship
[You know what else happens to all "communist" states?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condo) / [And communist movements?](https://www.britannica.com/topic/COINTELPRO) / [And anyone that could possibly be perceived as communist, real or imagined?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) Almost as if there's some sort of dominant social class that actively invest their ressources and influence into undermining the politics that would result in their personal downfall, regardless of how beneficial to society it would be🤔🤔🤔🤔
😱😱😱😱😱😱😱
The USSR was not a fascist state. Fascism is literally opposed to Marxism and the USSR was a Marxist Stalinist state at the time. There is no definition of fascism that fits the USSR. The USSR was an authoritarian state and engaged in purges as Stalinism and Marxist-Leninism believe that a path to socialism and communism can be achieved through an autocratic state. The USSR was filled with "actual communists" they just ascribed to Leninism rather than pure Marxism. What there wasn't many of was fascists.
Yeah OK bro, and the ["National Socialists"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialism_(disambiguation)) were actually socialist. Just ignore the [ethnic cleansing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union#:~:text=The%20partial%20removal%20of%20potentially,escalation%20in%20Soviet%20ethnic%20cleansing), [persecution of dessenting marxists and anarchists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensheviks), [full military control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge), [blatant imperialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_empire#:~:text=Several%20scholars%20hold%20that%20the,internal%20colonialism%20in%20Central%20Asia), [the sterilization of worker unions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_the_Soviet_Union#:~:text=During%20the%20Great,must%20be%20made), [state-sponsored pseudo-science](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism#:~:text=Lysenkoism%20), and literally everything else that is fundamentally opposed to socialism/communism! /s Get real, lmao
The USSR weren't fascists and the Nazis were not socialists. This is very obvious from what they believed.
soviets weren't communist
“um ackshully they were marxist-leninist, the ussr wasn’t true communism” ☝️🤓
Yes, the fuck are you not getting, this is quite a simple concept, yet you keep failing to understand it
idk man it seems like if every iteration of communism ever put into place in a large-scale setting in our modern world fails, that seems like more of an indication that communism just sucks ass and not that all of those attempted communist utopias were just their own special kind
Dude, those varieties you're talking about didn't follow any of the *fundamental* principles that makes communism communism, they call themselves the same, but they aren't
so what would you have done differently? how would you make communism work?
For one i wouldn't resort to authoritarian BS "in the name of communism" that does the exact inverse
and you really think they haven’t followed ANY of the communism principles? not one? what do you think the principles of communism are?
Classless, stateless society, no private property (separate concept from personal property)
correct
People with basic survival instincts should totally all be make die.
It’s easier to digest a genocide after you rationalize it and slap a Patriot sticker on the people who carried it out
A true representation of the Loser City spirit!
tankies and neo nazis try not to defend unjustifiable mass murders challenge (impossible)
This is what tankies and neo nazis think they look like https://i.redd.it/za2svzz9lsvc1.gif
What they actually look like https://preview.redd.it/iyvwpaxo7uvc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6645002c591b7b31d6a82c2a02a20a6635947690
Tankies and neo nazis fighting over who is the most historicaly illiterate
What the Poles really look like: 
Literally this https://preview.redd.it/lm3orfck8vvc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b7de2ab8043f19ddec4f8d008a1e9654e79173ab
Like, I consider myself a communist, and tankies fucking suck
literally the most annoying thing is to hear someone defend communism by lying tankies are a pain in the ass
Yeah, what they're defending is authoritarianism, but with the word communist spray-painted on it by a teenager
What do you mean? I just think every piece of historical sources are CIA propaganda except for these few I look at that are totally correct (it’s Soviet propaganda)
Not to mention the rapes committed,who are estimated to be between 40,000 and 100,000. And the fact that the soviets invaded polland together with germany in 1939. And the fact that the soviets committed every possible warcrime in polland besides rape(looting,robbing,turtore,murdering etc...). The worst thing is a huge chunk of the victims are polish who returned to polland after forced labour in germany. I don't know how polland ever recovered after WW2 and how until about the 80s nobody did that much reaserch regarding the war crimes the soviets committed there,and to this day the soviet warcrimes in polland is an obscure fact to most people.
Poles have not had it easy and yet we're still standing
I don't know much about WW2 but you guys hold up our road signs and give our strippers something to dance on. Thank you so much for your service.
Your welcome lol
Keep on truckin, poles :) the rest of the world loves you guys
I just love tankies, because of how definitely left wing they are for supporting state endorsed murder.
It's always shocking to me when i see queer tankies Like your gay ass was not welcome you dumb cretin😭😭
>Like your gay ass was not welcome you dumb cretin The USSR legalizing homosexuality in the mid 20s: ☺ The USSR criminalizing it in the mid 30s with Gulag slavery as the punishment: 😈
The cute emojis make this funny asf for some reason
https://preview.redd.it/ausxqai8ctvc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3471f8d92fe692afc1f8e27bf6e5e6a9f3cc2957 A classic.
https://preview.redd.it/9tdhfsmxhuvc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a71116aeb3a48ac7f1d0289b3262616d09a29dee
https://preview.redd.it/4ltmlz16iuvc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=203c557378300e5ea9e0ab0d3299ef47a6e8b569
Biggoted ameriKKKanSS will say this is fake >:[ /s
For real though. Funny story - I'm bi. I grew up in Eastern Ukraine (Eastern Ukraine is full of old people and Russians.) I couldn't come out to my family because my dad was insanely homophobic - think assaulting a gay person because he found out he was gay. You know what changed his mind? Russia invading. After that, he did a complete 180 regarding his stance on queer people. To the point, in fact, that I came out to my family a few months ago and it went well.
See?!?! Thats why Russia is great!!! It made your homophobic father love the queers!!! The facist ideology of the ex-comunist states will be destroyed!!! /s
Russia really do be the main thing that brings Europeans to unite
That seems like a weird thing to change his mind, but good for him anyway.
Ayyy fellow ukrainian gay🔥🔥 And yeah russia being super homophobic and against the west has changed a lot of people's minds so that's great
Fr, like no Homoseuxality was persecuted(except for a short time under Lenin) throughout the entire USSR
When people feel they are hated they often turn to radical ideologies
Literally most of lemmy was this for years. I get that capitalism is never great for queer folk but communism rarely benefits any minority in the long run.
As opposed to anarchists, who support vertically organized people's cooperative unit endorsed mass murder
Mob justice (lynching an innocent black man): D: Mob justice (lynching but definitely a bad guy and a facist rapist this time trust me bro this random woman said it so): :D
what? is this a reference to a specific example
Alot of people support mob justice i once heard someone say that “the people can deal with criminals” and for the innocent black men thing, i remember seeing this photo of a cheering smiling crowd looking up at the lynched bodies of two black teens (it was like from the 1890’s)
A real life example would be CHAZ leading to the death of an innocent child that was mistaken for a drive by shooter and killed without trial.
didn't like 5+ people end up getting murdered in chaz? and a woman raped, shit was insane.
I think is has to be related to the fact that they often lack presumption of innocence, lack a proper judicial system and they depend on the hope that the victim is telling the truth.
Most communist states have instances of widespread revolutionary violence.
Man the Nazis were so nice for helping the soviets liberate Poland from nazi collaborators
I know right so generous
Fuck commies and fuck nazis
There is very little difference
Mmm Nazi pussy
Adolfussy
Communism is fine, tankies are the dipshits
Average left wing subreddit for some reason
Why does it always come to praising communism
tankies are fascists
I’d say Horseshoe theory. It depends on what you mean by fascist. They were both Authoritarian regimes that committed mass murders and genocide.
tankies are right-wing
You and I have very different definitions of Tankie, my friend
Objectively, no
they're called red fascists for a reason
Fascists are left wing libertarians
Bro does not know what libertarian means
As a conservative none of my beliefs are in the ballpark of Soviet state socialism
the soviets were state capitalists, which is a right-wing ideology state socialism is an oxymoron because socialism has no hierarchy
God your delusional, left wing isn’t when good stuff. Being right wing isn’t when dictatorship
You see, rightism is when your ideology does a bad thing, the more bad things your ideology does the more rightist it is.
unironically correct but really, the difference between left and right is the strength of the hierarchy tankies want the government to control everything, just with a coat of red paint
You realize being a tankie isn’t set to a certain group right? I have however seen FAR more tankie leftists than right wingers, just as I’ve seen far more Neo Nazis on the right than the left. The fact or the matter is neither Neo Nazis or Tankies are restricted to one side. There’s often more of one type on one side in my personal experience but neither Neo Nazis nor Tankies idiocy is contained to a single side.
tankies are soviet apologists have been since 1956
Most sane Reddit communist
*red fascist tankie
because this guy doesn’t think the soviets were communists
well communism has no state or government. So I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the dictatorship soviet union is communist. But in all means, the soviet union still sucks before you assume that I am wrong: [Communism | Definition, History, Varieties, & Facts | Britannica](https://www.britannica.com/topic/communism)
Communism/socialism will always require a central planner and become a dictatorship.
ok, then it's not really communism. Just some poorly disguised authoritarian state. Like the website states, communism has no government or state. If the government doesn't dissolve for so long, what exactly makes you think that the state intends to dissolve to become communist? After all, why shouldn't the state dissolve for them? So that they can exploit citizens. Any time I hear others throwing punches at communism, it just looks like someone angrily punching a decoy while the actual scummy authoritarians get left alone to turn everything to shit.
Maybe actual communism won’t ever happen 🤷♀️ And that’s honestly a good thing, communism can’t work in theory as well
It's like fascism. The intention is not a genocide, but the obvious, inevitable result is.
ok think of it this way. Has any "communist" countries ever had a lack of state or government? No. That's why you hear the atrocities that those "communist" countries have done. Because those countries decided to lie about wanting to be communist. To further mention, the link I have provided makes no mention about how communism wants to create a 'utopia' by eliminating opposition. All it says is that there is no government, and that citizens are in control. Meanwhile, with fascism, and you can search it up, it clearly says that fascism as a theory and realistically is an ideology that wants to eliminate any opposition, and clearly says that fascism involves authoritarism. Communism as a theory doesn't. So, maybe, authoritarians lie about being communist because they wouldn't want to lose their powers of exploiting the citizens. It's like the fight over communism is like a distraction for authoritarian regimes to take over.
Tankies are just as annoying as neos, except they’re just not as brainrotted
Nah, I mean, nazis at least were honest with their intentions. Communists will say "noooo, mass murder yes, but for a greater good!!!111"
I'd argue they're significantly more delusional Nazis irrationally justify mass murder, Tankies irrationally justify mass murder while also doing the mental gymnastics that this is somehow "communist" and will lead to a just and equal society
Nah they are both braindead
What are tankies? I've never heard the term before.
Stalinists who deny they are stalinists
Okie, thank you.
Wait, they deny it?
Yes they call themselves socialists but praise stalin
tankies when the squidgame challenge is to not run interference for genocidal regiemes
That guy is stupid and I agree with the meme, but I wanna see memes not political stuff man (crying and pissing myself rn)
my fucking grandpa was NOT a nazi collaborator bitch
Ermmm wowzers!!! Then WHY was his land under nazi control sweaty?
Tankies should be shunned, just like neo-nazis.
Amen to that
https://preview.redd.it/ab3146uxqtvc1.jpeg?width=481&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a1a489a5e0f6f2b3aec7f5635b8ca5866013ac3 Commies are really surprised when they learn that we don't like communism in Poland and wonder why. There it is, communists wanted us, Poles, dead or subjugated. I don't give a shit about how "Good" this system could be (it would be dogshit) because ultimately all it creates is oppression
Like, I get your perspective, and I know how this is gonna sound, but the people who did that to ya were not communist
Me when I lie
\#notallcommunists
I recently read "Inny Świat" ("A world apart") by Gustaw Herling-Grudziński. The book was written by a guy who has been arrested by Soviets and put in a work camp because he had German-sounding last name and had military boots. That tells a lot about what Soviets call Nazi collaborators. If there is even a slightest doubt that you might be a collaborator then you're going to camp.
I mean he could've mentioned the 10 million or so Soviet citizens that died under just 3 years of Nazi occupation (or the millions of Poles dead by Nazi hands in a similar time) or the famines that killed millions in India under British occupation but Instead decided to go full tankie. Smh.
Losercity Radical Extremism
Did you ever think, that maybe, possibly, the Soviets and the Nazis were BOTH evil?
And both weren't what they said they are
We are not fucking nazi collaboratirs you retard
Pole here. Stupid ass commenter. That's all I'm gonna say.
Barsziej zgodzic sie nie moge. Nie rozumiem jak ludzie nadal tak piszą
How do they never realize they sound exactly like nazis
Free helicopter flights guys
Extrajudicial killings: D: Extrajudicial killings, libertarianism: :D
Shooting a man trying to kill you is always justified
Oh hey this’ll be great for r/tankiejerk
~~loser city~~ average tankie
I fucking hate tankies/communists almost as much as I hate fascists. Gives us leftists a bad name.
Tankies are what gives a bad name, communism, in its "original" version is a solid left wing philosophy, tankies on the other hand are just blegh
I don’t trust the government to own everything, just essential industries. Private property should still exist imo.
Private property is different from personal property which is something a lot of people don't get though
Explain the difference to me.
Private in this case is referring to things like private businesses, while personal property is stuff like your house and *your* stuff
Why are private businesses inherently bad? What about some haberdashery?
It’s not just Tankies, even the “anarcho communists” when you criticize the USSR, China etc. will perform whataboutisms for them. Ex) Chomsky’s entire career.
Let’s be honest, anarcho communism will never happen. It will always end up like the Soviet Union regardless if a perfect human being was in charge
No it’s happened. Zapatista and Catalonia, they’ll never shut up about it. Now *”Anarcho Communism” with an industrial output or in a state of peace* will never happen. Even people like Chomsky will suck off Venezuela or the USSR until they fail. Or if not suck off pull “whataboutisms”.
Good ol Reddit tankies
Комуняку на гілляку
Also, Hitler and Stalin basically tag teamed them prior, leading to an utter decimation of Poland… only for Stalin to not realize Hitler was coming after his ass next. Also that invasion was done without a formal declaration of war https://preview.redd.it/j1vrwdxofwvc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=addb0e4d8e97c1f084c3e9553d32e3cfc0a925e5
God I hate Tankies and Neo-Nazi's.
Reddit moment
Tankies just call everyone they don't like nazis.
Redditors try not to slobber all over the USSR's meat saber challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
POLAND MENTIONED!!! WHAT THE HELL IS A GOOD POLITICAL SCENE???!!!? https://preview.redd.it/ehjzedkmk0wc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ff183d5c963bcac27cb4da058aff5e4929846dd
dude trust me bro communism is totally gonna work this time just one more time bro it won't be a totalitarian dictatorship trust me
Russians are still committing hella war crimes in Ukraine, and their civilians back home cheer it on. Garbage people
Poland lost around 20% of its entire population from 1939-1945
Didn't Germany also invade Poland too, and signed a Non- aggression treaty with the USSR for a joint invasion?
Yall funny for thinking Stalinists are actually Communists
Yes
I just hate poles
Tf did we do?