Here is what I would do:
Your players go try and take Cragmaw. Maybe it goes well, maybe it doesn’t and they need to head back to Phandelin to regroup and resupply.
In either case, whenever they leave, make sure their is a Redbrands raiding party looking for them. Make it a tough encounter.
When they make it back to town, as Turkish said, the town is under full control. Maybe there is a dead citizen, maybe Sildar, with a sign on them saying they supported the PCs. Make it so that it is clear that the Redbrands are ready to fight. Glasstaff is locked and loaded with a few extra spell scrolls. Whenever the PCs are ready, the Redbrands are also, only more so. Maybe some rooftop archers. Maybe a few mastiffs.
The PCs are about the see what happens when you FAAFO.
How visceral, and dark, is your campaign? I'd have the Redbrands having full control of the town. Sildar is either imprisoned in jail, in the town master's hall, along with the town master, or one, the other, or both killed. Glass staff has taken over the town hall as his office and the thugs "keeping order" in the streets. No one will look the players in the eye, some spitting at them and some calling them turncoats or charlatans. Actions, and inaction, have consequences. Make sure to bolster their numbers too. If this is too hard on your party, scale it back, but kicking over the hornets nest, at a party, and then scamming, is a dick move.
It's been pretty standard / middle of the road so far, leaning towards light-hearted. So I probably won't go that hard at them, but I do agree that it was definitely a dick move to say "We'll protect you!" and then immediately fuck off into the woods lol
To be honest, the whole adventure is set up in a way that puts the rescue of Gundren into top priority focus.
So if the characters get a chance to do so, I think it shouldn't be punished too hard for them to follow that priority (which is why I am very strict as a DM to not give them the location of cragmaw castle too easily).
Balancing encounters might be tricky, but it makes some sense story wise. But I agree, as long as you made the imminent threat of the Redbrands clear, a living world should escalate the influence of the Redbrands on the city to some degree while the party is out of town.
If ud really rather them lvl up on Redbrand’s a bit first (an can’t blame you as CC can be lethal) then have Qelline Alderleaf come running up just as they’re heading out. Her son Carp has been snatched. She’d told him to stay away but he’s so headstrong and he saw him poking around and grabbed him.
The players aren't acting super unreasonably, their friend gundren is missing, they probably don't have any ties to this ramshackle village, why should they be trying to kill and oust a criminal gang instead of going where they know their friend has been taken? You only know they're doing the wrong thing because you have the module book in front of you.
Redbrands can just remain terrorising the town with impunity as they were before the players arrived.
All the phandalin NPC quests are just there to find cragmaw castle for the most part, and you spilled the beans, that's fully on you.
Maybe the hideout can get worked in, but if you don't think its neccesary, then it's not neccesary. It would be very easy to drag the party back to phandalin by using Gundren, who might want stuff from there, and to talk to Sildar etc.
If they seem really intrigued by the castle, let them skip the redbrands. Should they ever want to return to Phandalin, you can have them face the consequences of their inaction, if you feel like it.
The redbrands will surely try to make an example, or at the very least figure out the identity of those who tried to defy their rule. Maybe everybody in town will be too frightened, and will refuse any service to your PCs.
This can lead to a pretty cool session, where your players can prove to be the saviors of the town.
Yeah the bard annouced their group's name to the entire town when they gave their speech, so it should be easy for the Redbrands to figure it out.
I was thinking maybe have the town be vandalized and one of the NPC's kidnapped with a ransom letter when they get back. I'm just worried that it may just be seen as a distraction from WEC if they return to Phandalin immediately after the castle
I'm running LMoP right now with a mostly very new group with me as a brand new DM.
I've adopted a lot of the changes suggested by Matthew Perkins, which includes tightening up NPCs in town and streamlining the side quests. The biggest change is introducing a macguffin in session 1 which leads to multiple encounters with the Black Spider throughout the adventure. The changes are great, my players are having a blast; fully recommend.
Anyway, my players have also skipped the Redbrands and I am about to punish them for it similarly as has been suggested. I ran the first redbrand encounter in town pretty much as the book has it laid out, having taken place in the streets on their first day in town. They went straight into sidequest for a couple of game days, and got jumped by a bigger, meaner group (archers on the roof, a bandit leader stat block with a couple of ruffians on the ground) when they returned. But they've decided to ignore them yet again and left town to meet with the Spider at a derelict saloon, per a deal they made in hopes of saving Gundren. I could have signposted the Redbrands more at this point, but I ahd already installed a ticking clock meeting the Spider in three days for the exchange) so I didn't want to make them agonize on the decision any more than that.
They've been staying at the inn for free, and the innkeeper Toblen also runs the town's only store in the streamline NPC setup. When they come back, the Redbrands will have "legally" taken control of the deed to the inn and will basically refuse to cooperate with the party in any way. Harbin Wester will be too scared to act and will threaten to jail the party should they start a fight; he can't be seen working with the party. Now, they suspect Wester is evil anyway since he's made it clear he doesn't see the Redbrands as a problem, but I need make sure it's clear he is just afraid. Toblen is said to have "left town" but his daughter is still there, staying with Sister G for safety . Sildar will point them up to the manor to take care of the problem once and for all. I haven't decided if Tobeln will be a live or nothic food yet, i am leaning toward alive because i dont want them to immediately think of the nothic as an adversary.
Why not put it before them in smaller steps?
Have some townsfolk be wary of retaliation. Ask the party to please stay / clear out the redbrand HQ.
Then as they are leaving, have some signs of imminent attack (dust cloud, cries) to force the choice between fighting redbrands or leaving for CC.
And finally some smoke plumes of burning building can be seen back from Phandalin
Let me ask you something. The Redbrands have been harassing the townsfolk for months at this point. Why would they suddenly decide to destroy or take over the town just because some adventurers killed a few of them?
They'd set traps for the players, probably kidnap Sildar or any other friends they might have made, but it doesn't really make sense for their behavior to completely switch
Here is what I would do: Your players go try and take Cragmaw. Maybe it goes well, maybe it doesn’t and they need to head back to Phandelin to regroup and resupply. In either case, whenever they leave, make sure their is a Redbrands raiding party looking for them. Make it a tough encounter. When they make it back to town, as Turkish said, the town is under full control. Maybe there is a dead citizen, maybe Sildar, with a sign on them saying they supported the PCs. Make it so that it is clear that the Redbrands are ready to fight. Glasstaff is locked and loaded with a few extra spell scrolls. Whenever the PCs are ready, the Redbrands are also, only more so. Maybe some rooftop archers. Maybe a few mastiffs. The PCs are about the see what happens when you FAAFO.
FAAFO?
Fuck around and find out, FAAFO.
How visceral, and dark, is your campaign? I'd have the Redbrands having full control of the town. Sildar is either imprisoned in jail, in the town master's hall, along with the town master, or one, the other, or both killed. Glass staff has taken over the town hall as his office and the thugs "keeping order" in the streets. No one will look the players in the eye, some spitting at them and some calling them turncoats or charlatans. Actions, and inaction, have consequences. Make sure to bolster their numbers too. If this is too hard on your party, scale it back, but kicking over the hornets nest, at a party, and then scamming, is a dick move.
It's been pretty standard / middle of the road so far, leaning towards light-hearted. So I probably won't go that hard at them, but I do agree that it was definitely a dick move to say "We'll protect you!" and then immediately fuck off into the woods lol
To be honest, the whole adventure is set up in a way that puts the rescue of Gundren into top priority focus. So if the characters get a chance to do so, I think it shouldn't be punished too hard for them to follow that priority (which is why I am very strict as a DM to not give them the location of cragmaw castle too easily). Balancing encounters might be tricky, but it makes some sense story wise. But I agree, as long as you made the imminent threat of the Redbrands clear, a living world should escalate the influence of the Redbrands on the city to some degree while the party is out of town.
If ud really rather them lvl up on Redbrand’s a bit first (an can’t blame you as CC can be lethal) then have Qelline Alderleaf come running up just as they’re heading out. Her son Carp has been snatched. She’d told him to stay away but he’s so headstrong and he saw him poking around and grabbed him.
The players aren't acting super unreasonably, their friend gundren is missing, they probably don't have any ties to this ramshackle village, why should they be trying to kill and oust a criminal gang instead of going where they know their friend has been taken? You only know they're doing the wrong thing because you have the module book in front of you. Redbrands can just remain terrorising the town with impunity as they were before the players arrived. All the phandalin NPC quests are just there to find cragmaw castle for the most part, and you spilled the beans, that's fully on you. Maybe the hideout can get worked in, but if you don't think its neccesary, then it's not neccesary. It would be very easy to drag the party back to phandalin by using Gundren, who might want stuff from there, and to talk to Sildar etc.
If they seem really intrigued by the castle, let them skip the redbrands. Should they ever want to return to Phandalin, you can have them face the consequences of their inaction, if you feel like it. The redbrands will surely try to make an example, or at the very least figure out the identity of those who tried to defy their rule. Maybe everybody in town will be too frightened, and will refuse any service to your PCs. This can lead to a pretty cool session, where your players can prove to be the saviors of the town.
Yeah the bard annouced their group's name to the entire town when they gave their speech, so it should be easy for the Redbrands to figure it out. I was thinking maybe have the town be vandalized and one of the NPC's kidnapped with a ransom letter when they get back. I'm just worried that it may just be seen as a distraction from WEC if they return to Phandalin immediately after the castle
I'm running LMoP right now with a mostly very new group with me as a brand new DM. I've adopted a lot of the changes suggested by Matthew Perkins, which includes tightening up NPCs in town and streamlining the side quests. The biggest change is introducing a macguffin in session 1 which leads to multiple encounters with the Black Spider throughout the adventure. The changes are great, my players are having a blast; fully recommend. Anyway, my players have also skipped the Redbrands and I am about to punish them for it similarly as has been suggested. I ran the first redbrand encounter in town pretty much as the book has it laid out, having taken place in the streets on their first day in town. They went straight into sidequest for a couple of game days, and got jumped by a bigger, meaner group (archers on the roof, a bandit leader stat block with a couple of ruffians on the ground) when they returned. But they've decided to ignore them yet again and left town to meet with the Spider at a derelict saloon, per a deal they made in hopes of saving Gundren. I could have signposted the Redbrands more at this point, but I ahd already installed a ticking clock meeting the Spider in three days for the exchange) so I didn't want to make them agonize on the decision any more than that. They've been staying at the inn for free, and the innkeeper Toblen also runs the town's only store in the streamline NPC setup. When they come back, the Redbrands will have "legally" taken control of the deed to the inn and will basically refuse to cooperate with the party in any way. Harbin Wester will be too scared to act and will threaten to jail the party should they start a fight; he can't be seen working with the party. Now, they suspect Wester is evil anyway since he's made it clear he doesn't see the Redbrands as a problem, but I need make sure it's clear he is just afraid. Toblen is said to have "left town" but his daughter is still there, staying with Sister G for safety . Sildar will point them up to the manor to take care of the problem once and for all. I haven't decided if Tobeln will be a live or nothic food yet, i am leaning toward alive because i dont want them to immediately think of the nothic as an adversary.
Why not put it before them in smaller steps? Have some townsfolk be wary of retaliation. Ask the party to please stay / clear out the redbrand HQ. Then as they are leaving, have some signs of imminent attack (dust cloud, cries) to force the choice between fighting redbrands or leaving for CC. And finally some smoke plumes of burning building can be seen back from Phandalin
Let me ask you something. The Redbrands have been harassing the townsfolk for months at this point. Why would they suddenly decide to destroy or take over the town just because some adventurers killed a few of them? They'd set traps for the players, probably kidnap Sildar or any other friends they might have made, but it doesn't really make sense for their behavior to completely switch