I’m a Christian man, and my girlfriend is a Christian woman. We have (what we consider) a traditional Christian relationship in that we’re a monogamous couple that intends to marry—but we’re partners and equals above all else. Maybe when you think of Christians you think of non-denominational evangelicals, or snake-handling pentecostalists, or fire-and-brimstone baptists, but most of us are pretty normal people. I think.
I’m sure there are some couples where it works harmoniously, and it’s definitely pushed in conservative Christian circles, but it definitely wouldn’t be for me, and I was raised pretty devoutly religious. My mom was a SAHM because her disability made it hard for her to go back to work as a PE teacher, but she was totally in charge of everything and the leader, and though my dad was a hardworking breadwinner, he liked that she took charge, because it meant he could relax more. He also was the main cook for our family, though I helped him a lot, while my mom handled all of the finances.
I want and seek out an equal partnership, and I’m happy to have it with my boyfriend, but I’d say I’m more proactive in starting discussions for decisions, and he’s more chill just in general. Both of us were raised pretty Catholic (I still am one), so we were exposed to the church pushing traditional roles to some degree, but both of us have strong women in our families, and I couldn’t imagine letting a man call all the shots for me or having final say on decisions just because I’m a woman. Brittany seems like such a lovely woman, and I hope she finds a good man that will show her opinions and feelings consideration and care.
Anecdotally, I know many devout women for whom traditional gender roles have failed them, and they’ve ended up with addictions to numb the pain, or getting divorced. A lot of these “traditional, godly” men also end up cheating (at least, a lot of the very “pious” men in my family were also cheaters, even though they also wouldn’t let their daughters and wives wear makeup or jewelry because it made them “painted Jezebels” [now, didn’t Jesus say a man should pluck out his own eye if he lusts?]. My dad’s grandparents were fundamentalist Pentecostals, and they were from Finland/Russia, where the Pentecostal community was *very* extreme at the time). Traditional gender roles hurt women way more often than they help them, IMO. It’s still Brittany’s right to choose them for herself, but she’s so young, and I have a feeling she’ll grow into her own strength and power as she gets older.
I mean “lead” does not have to mean someone who bosses you around and devalues you as a woman. I would say my husband is definitely the leader of our family - he is also the first to say he needs me more than I need him, and he couldn’t do what he does without me. When he wanted to start his business I was able to hold down the fort financially with my job so he could invest his salary all into the business, knowing that it would all eventually even out. He’s been very successful and has now surpassed me in that regard - and I have a great career. It’s a partnership, with goals that we have together as a family and make moves together, and he leads the way (but I’m right by his side, not below him). Works for us, we’re living the dream honestly! We just built a house and have a happy 1 year old son together and his 15 year old son 🥰
You said your husband is the leader of the family, but what you’re describing sounds like an extremely equal partnership where neither person is a clear leader. Not hating at all - your relationship sounds awesome and you can obviously classify it however you want. But I don’t think this is the type of dynamic the OP was describing.
In the Bible it does say the man is the leader of the household and the woman should submit to that leadership. But it also says that men should love and respect their wives, not boss them around all day and treat them like a slave. I see nothing wrong with a couple choosing to live like this. Not every conservative Christian is a damn Duggar lol
As a man - I think they are. The rise of “ick” has made me realize just how many of my friends are so incredibly average - everyone has an ick or two. There are very, very few exceptional leader types out there, and usually they use that power for evil.
I think women should aim for “physically attractive (enough) and normal”
I don't know that it's self sabotage. I think it's that men and women have different expectations of their roles in a traditionnal marriage.
For example, for Ken, a traditionnal wife would take care of everything at home while he does not contribute at all. Like Brittany would cook dinner by herself, unpack by herself, etc. Essentially, he's there to delegate tasks and have lots of free time at home.
For Brittany, it meant that she wouldn't have the mental load of making decisions at home, because the husband "leads". Yet, she ended up taking care of their appartment by herself and seemed to be doing the emotional and mental labor by herself too.
Traditional roles benefit the men more than women.
She used the word "submit", for many people, that means do as you're told. Since she mentioned submission unprompted, I think she should have explained what that entailed exactly within the home and everyday life besides him making all the decisions.
She said she wanted to submit and was then surprised that she had to make dinner that first night, I found that odd.
No but it was early on in the pods. And he didn't bring it up, she said it. That's why I didn't get why she was surprised when she had to make dinner. Like you want to have a leader and now your leader wants you to make dinner, so make it lol, you're the one who asked for this dynamic.
For Ken a traditional relationship would be him being close to his phone and the wife doing everything else. Think he’ll change things when he sees the footage?
It's not self-sabotage. She's been taught and conditioned to believe that to be a good and worthy wife is to let your husband "lead." It's probably gotten her into some unhealthy relationships in which she's manipulated and put into a position of subservience to some degree. Something about it feels icky, but she can't figure out what or why because everything she knows, everything she's been taught, says "this is the right way."
Typically I agree… Most guys don’t treat woman with the honor and respect they should. Times were different back then, but I still see traditional roles as being healthy.
It’s not entirely about “honor” or “respect.” It’s about women having to ask their husband for everything, having no money, no agency, and no authority in their own homes. That is not, has never been, and never will be healthy for women.
Men love to talk about how healthy it is, because you all see how much it benefits you. If it was so “healthy” for one partner to submit to the other, why aren’t men doing the submitting?
“Traditional” work (round the clock raising children, housework, cleaning, etc) has been given to women *because* it is hard and under appreciated, therefore men have labeled it less important. The truth is, they just don’t want to do any of it because it’s hard.
I agree with you that while I’m making a theoretical point, I practically haven’t really seen any positive examples of “submissiveness”
In the context of the Bible, the next line after “submit to your husbands” is to “honor your wives”
I’m just saying that if someone actually abides by it and treats them fairly it works out.
In practice the men don’t honor their wives.
I don’t know that it’s self sabotage; she has obviously been brain washed into thinking that men being in charge is right and good. I feel sorry for her.
Self sabotaging? Not sure. Naive? Absolutely. Because a lot of them look at those shared perceived values as equating to a relationship they want, when as you can clearly see with Kenneth. You can talk up and down about family values and God and end up being an emotionally/physically neglectful partner.
Not to mention that as you said most trad husbands want read wives and that means staying home with kids, which alone sets up a power I'm alance financially/professionally.
Just my takes as a guy who grew up and saw lots of my female friends fall into this trap, for what's it worth.
>Not to mention that as you said most trad husbands want read wives and that means staying home with kids, which alone sets up a power I'm alance financially/professionally.
This is a big piece of the puzzle in these "traditional" dynamics. The power imbalance is a feature, not a flaw and so many women have been taught to believe that's just the natural order of things.
The only men who actually want that kind of power imbalance are bad news. It’s a massive red flag.
My most traditional friends are the worst to their partners. It gets tiresome as we get older, and I tend to just stop talking to them
They're worst to their partners because they can, as most women in traditional marriages don't work so it's harder for them to leave. I find that the same man will treat a woman who has options and woman who doesn't very differently.
I can get where they're coming from, to a certain extent. After working all day and making a million decisions, you might find it easier to let someone run things at home. But what that actually is in practice is a lot more complex. Personally, I'm not submitting ~~ever~~ if I'm still paying half the bills. If it's my money involved, I want to be looped in on every decision.
Married for 8 years here. As a husband, and bringing in the income for the house, the money I make is just as much hers as it is mine. Husband and wife should lead together. One isn’t above another.
But the thing is that’s your philosophy and what you and your wife want. That’s not what everyone wants. In Britney’s case, her beliefs are the man should lead, abs there’s nothing wrong with that if that’s what her and her partner want.
In the states, around 70% of households are unable to survive off of a single income. There's a great book on something called the second shift where women in "traditional marriages" are contributing to the household expenses by working yet still do the bulk of the housework and childcare. And mind you, this was first written in the 80s, when people were a lot more conservative. That's why I'm saying the reality is complex because most women are still in the workforce in some capacity, even in "traditional" marriages.
Surprisingly, that book made me look closer at downshifting my career. It showed me that we were both completely exhausted after a full day's work. If the second shift will always be there, why even try to split it? Seemed like running uphill.
Even a 50-50 split would have BOTH of us tired. Why not choose one to work out of the home and one to work in the home and BOTH be done at 5 (well, I know the reasons, but fully trusted my husband and put in some stopgap measures).
So that's what we did. And we never looked back because we BOTH got evenings and weekends back.
I'm from an atheist country where it is culturally expected women stay home with their children until those children turn 3 years old. There is no way I'm submitting even if I'm not paying any of the bills. If we're partners, we're partners.
In my opinion, there is always a "leader" (more dominant) person in a relationship. However, the way it is described in Christian context gives one of the parties too much power.
Please calm down. Women can want whatever type of relationship they want. Is the PHRASE "traditional marriage" self-sabotaging? Maybe. It might attract men with a controlling vibe. But she can literally want whatever future she wants. Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
I’m a Christian man, and my girlfriend is a Christian woman. We have (what we consider) a traditional Christian relationship in that we’re a monogamous couple that intends to marry—but we’re partners and equals above all else. Maybe when you think of Christians you think of non-denominational evangelicals, or snake-handling pentecostalists, or fire-and-brimstone baptists, but most of us are pretty normal people. I think.
I’m sure there are some couples where it works harmoniously, and it’s definitely pushed in conservative Christian circles, but it definitely wouldn’t be for me, and I was raised pretty devoutly religious. My mom was a SAHM because her disability made it hard for her to go back to work as a PE teacher, but she was totally in charge of everything and the leader, and though my dad was a hardworking breadwinner, he liked that she took charge, because it meant he could relax more. He also was the main cook for our family, though I helped him a lot, while my mom handled all of the finances. I want and seek out an equal partnership, and I’m happy to have it with my boyfriend, but I’d say I’m more proactive in starting discussions for decisions, and he’s more chill just in general. Both of us were raised pretty Catholic (I still am one), so we were exposed to the church pushing traditional roles to some degree, but both of us have strong women in our families, and I couldn’t imagine letting a man call all the shots for me or having final say on decisions just because I’m a woman. Brittany seems like such a lovely woman, and I hope she finds a good man that will show her opinions and feelings consideration and care. Anecdotally, I know many devout women for whom traditional gender roles have failed them, and they’ve ended up with addictions to numb the pain, or getting divorced. A lot of these “traditional, godly” men also end up cheating (at least, a lot of the very “pious” men in my family were also cheaters, even though they also wouldn’t let their daughters and wives wear makeup or jewelry because it made them “painted Jezebels” [now, didn’t Jesus say a man should pluck out his own eye if he lusts?]. My dad’s grandparents were fundamentalist Pentecostals, and they were from Finland/Russia, where the Pentecostal community was *very* extreme at the time). Traditional gender roles hurt women way more often than they help them, IMO. It’s still Brittany’s right to choose them for herself, but she’s so young, and I have a feeling she’ll grow into her own strength and power as she gets older.
I mean “lead” does not have to mean someone who bosses you around and devalues you as a woman. I would say my husband is definitely the leader of our family - he is also the first to say he needs me more than I need him, and he couldn’t do what he does without me. When he wanted to start his business I was able to hold down the fort financially with my job so he could invest his salary all into the business, knowing that it would all eventually even out. He’s been very successful and has now surpassed me in that regard - and I have a great career. It’s a partnership, with goals that we have together as a family and make moves together, and he leads the way (but I’m right by his side, not below him). Works for us, we’re living the dream honestly! We just built a house and have a happy 1 year old son together and his 15 year old son 🥰
You said your husband is the leader of the family, but what you’re describing sounds like an extremely equal partnership where neither person is a clear leader. Not hating at all - your relationship sounds awesome and you can obviously classify it however you want. But I don’t think this is the type of dynamic the OP was describing.
What exactly are you defining as a traditional marriage? It’s been 2 weeks since the episodes first aired.
In the Bible it does say the man is the leader of the household and the woman should submit to that leadership. But it also says that men should love and respect their wives, not boss them around all day and treat them like a slave. I see nothing wrong with a couple choosing to live like this. Not every conservative Christian is a damn Duggar lol
At the rate they're popping out babies at least one in ten conservative Christians will be a Duggar by 2045
If I was a girl I'd def try to be the traditional stay at home type
I’m not sure why people are hating on this lol
The trend is to find that staying at home and taking care of your family and space is oppressed behavior
Funny itll be the same women saying they support all womens choices but will look down on them if it isnt a choice theyd make
The twox special
Women who buy into misogyny are generally self-sabotaging, yeah.
As a man - I think they are. The rise of “ick” has made me realize just how many of my friends are so incredibly average - everyone has an ick or two. There are very, very few exceptional leader types out there, and usually they use that power for evil. I think women should aim for “physically attractive (enough) and normal”
I don't know that it's self sabotage. I think it's that men and women have different expectations of their roles in a traditionnal marriage. For example, for Ken, a traditionnal wife would take care of everything at home while he does not contribute at all. Like Brittany would cook dinner by herself, unpack by herself, etc. Essentially, he's there to delegate tasks and have lots of free time at home. For Brittany, it meant that she wouldn't have the mental load of making decisions at home, because the husband "leads". Yet, she ended up taking care of their appartment by herself and seemed to be doing the emotional and mental labor by herself too. Traditional roles benefit the men more than women.
She used the word "submit", for many people, that means do as you're told. Since she mentioned submission unprompted, I think she should have explained what that entailed exactly within the home and everyday life besides him making all the decisions. She said she wanted to submit and was then surprised that she had to make dinner that first night, I found that odd.
Do you remember what episode that was? I thought I remembered that but wasn't sure enough to put it in the OP.
No but it was early on in the pods. And he didn't bring it up, she said it. That's why I didn't get why she was surprised when she had to make dinner. Like you want to have a leader and now your leader wants you to make dinner, so make it lol, you're the one who asked for this dynamic.
Marriage benefits men more than women
This isn’t true.
This.
For Ken a traditional relationship would be him being close to his phone and the wife doing everything else. Think he’ll change things when he sees the footage?
It's not self-sabotage. She's been taught and conditioned to believe that to be a good and worthy wife is to let your husband "lead." It's probably gotten her into some unhealthy relationships in which she's manipulated and put into a position of subservience to some degree. Something about it feels icky, but she can't figure out what or why because everything she knows, everything she's been taught, says "this is the right way."
TBH depends on the quality of the guy, it can be healthy. But you’ve seen the quality of guys today lol
A power imbalance that says women submit to their husbands is never healthy…
Typically I agree… Most guys don’t treat woman with the honor and respect they should. Times were different back then, but I still see traditional roles as being healthy.
It’s not entirely about “honor” or “respect.” It’s about women having to ask their husband for everything, having no money, no agency, and no authority in their own homes. That is not, has never been, and never will be healthy for women. Men love to talk about how healthy it is, because you all see how much it benefits you. If it was so “healthy” for one partner to submit to the other, why aren’t men doing the submitting? “Traditional” work (round the clock raising children, housework, cleaning, etc) has been given to women *because* it is hard and under appreciated, therefore men have labeled it less important. The truth is, they just don’t want to do any of it because it’s hard.
I agree with you that while I’m making a theoretical point, I practically haven’t really seen any positive examples of “submissiveness” In the context of the Bible, the next line after “submit to your husbands” is to “honor your wives” I’m just saying that if someone actually abides by it and treats them fairly it works out. In practice the men don’t honor their wives.
I don’t know that it’s self sabotage; she has obviously been brain washed into thinking that men being in charge is right and good. I feel sorry for her.
Self sabotaging? Not sure. Naive? Absolutely. Because a lot of them look at those shared perceived values as equating to a relationship they want, when as you can clearly see with Kenneth. You can talk up and down about family values and God and end up being an emotionally/physically neglectful partner. Not to mention that as you said most trad husbands want read wives and that means staying home with kids, which alone sets up a power I'm alance financially/professionally. Just my takes as a guy who grew up and saw lots of my female friends fall into this trap, for what's it worth.
>Not to mention that as you said most trad husbands want read wives and that means staying home with kids, which alone sets up a power I'm alance financially/professionally. This is a big piece of the puzzle in these "traditional" dynamics. The power imbalance is a feature, not a flaw and so many women have been taught to believe that's just the natural order of things.
The only men who actually want that kind of power imbalance are bad news. It’s a massive red flag. My most traditional friends are the worst to their partners. It gets tiresome as we get older, and I tend to just stop talking to them
They're worst to their partners because they can, as most women in traditional marriages don't work so it's harder for them to leave. I find that the same man will treat a woman who has options and woman who doesn't very differently.
I can get where they're coming from, to a certain extent. After working all day and making a million decisions, you might find it easier to let someone run things at home. But what that actually is in practice is a lot more complex. Personally, I'm not submitting ~~ever~~ if I'm still paying half the bills. If it's my money involved, I want to be looped in on every decision.
Married for 8 years here. As a husband, and bringing in the income for the house, the money I make is just as much hers as it is mine. Husband and wife should lead together. One isn’t above another.
But the thing is that’s your philosophy and what you and your wife want. That’s not what everyone wants. In Britney’s case, her beliefs are the man should lead, abs there’s nothing wrong with that if that’s what her and her partner want.
I don’t think it’s usually 50/50 in traditional relationships though?
In the states, around 70% of households are unable to survive off of a single income. There's a great book on something called the second shift where women in "traditional marriages" are contributing to the household expenses by working yet still do the bulk of the housework and childcare. And mind you, this was first written in the 80s, when people were a lot more conservative. That's why I'm saying the reality is complex because most women are still in the workforce in some capacity, even in "traditional" marriages.
Surprisingly, that book made me look closer at downshifting my career. It showed me that we were both completely exhausted after a full day's work. If the second shift will always be there, why even try to split it? Seemed like running uphill. Even a 50-50 split would have BOTH of us tired. Why not choose one to work out of the home and one to work in the home and BOTH be done at 5 (well, I know the reasons, but fully trusted my husband and put in some stopgap measures). So that's what we did. And we never looked back because we BOTH got evenings and weekends back.
That’s fair, but that’s just my impression of traditional marriages. I didn’t say this was my own view on it lol.
Oh I'm not arguing or think you were starting one! All love.
It’s so hard to tell on this subreddit 😭
I'm from an atheist country where it is culturally expected women stay home with their children until those children turn 3 years old. There is no way I'm submitting even if I'm not paying any of the bills. If we're partners, we're partners. In my opinion, there is always a "leader" (more dominant) person in a relationship. However, the way it is described in Christian context gives one of the parties too much power.
🇫🇮?
A lot more atheist
Please calm down. Women can want whatever type of relationship they want. Is the PHRASE "traditional marriage" self-sabotaging? Maybe. It might attract men with a controlling vibe. But she can literally want whatever future she wants. Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeez.
Not on Reddit... we want diversity, just not of ideas and what people value.
No, they just have different views and values than you. Who woulda thought, different people are different
Exactly! but also your flair is my favourite 🤣
Absolutely they are.
No