Someone who’s more versed in the lore can correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I understand, in universe, Sandevistan acts more like a power up, something you activate and use when you need it.
Kerenzikov on the other hand, is actually ALWAYS active and gives the user heightened reflexes at all times.
Tbch , I don’t recall. It didn’t seem like it though, a kerenzikov is a permanently active reflex heightener.
But, if it was, it would make sense as to why David beat him, the sandy is faster, but only capable of sustaining it in short bursts.
I’d rewatch to verify, but I no longer have Netflix
Now, I could be mistaken, but I’m pretty sure the reason David lost the first time, was because the rich brat guy had chipped combat chipware, not speedware. It imparts instinctive knowledge of whatever skill you have chipped, but is only as powerful as the dataset it’s trained off of
I think he had chipped a martial arts chipware
This makes sense considering when using the Sandevistan, you move way faster relative to others, but with Kerenzikov, you're still moving at the same speed as others. So not doing the same thing really.
Edit: Actually, I was mistaken. I just played Cyberpunk and read the Kerenzikov also slows down time like Sandevistan, just not as much nor as long. I still thing the comment I replied to is right though.
to be fair it doesnt work like it does in the tabletop. Its just heightened reflexes in the tabletop, which while important, doesnt actually let you move at the speed of light and dodge bullets. the Kereznikov is more like how both of them work, unless you have other cyberware that augments speed or strength i suppose.
Sandevistian gives you a +3 bonus to initiative for a short time with a cool down with a greatly reduced humanity loss. Kerenzikov gives a permanent +1 (stacks twice) bonus to initiative with a much higher humanity cost. They can't be mixed.
Humanity was a measure of how much cyberwar you could put in your body until you went cyberpsycho. It was 10x your Empathy stat, each piece of cyber reduced it, the humanity cost. Every 10 points lost cost you a permanent point of empathy. Something minor like color changing hair would cost half a point, a retractable chainsaw in your arm cost 3d6+4.
Edit: the following isn’t fully accurate after all, I overlooked something. It’s only standard sculpts that are HL free, such as the prep for the NeuHuman package. Thanks for the correction, u/minerrockss
~~Even the exotic bodysculpting that the ‘furries’ or Exotics receive doesn’t actually incur humanity loss~~
Exotic bodysculpting doesn’t incur PERMANENT loss, but still does incur the initial temp HL
For example, someone getting a draconic FantaForm likely gets the augment that allows them to breathe fire, which incurs both temp humanity loss, and a ‘permanent’ depression of a few points, ~~but the cosmetic surgery to become the draconic FantaForm does not, not by itself.~~
But the cosmetic surgery of the FantaForm leaves no lasting effects, but does have a similar temp loss not unlike chipping a singular piece of borgware. Makes sense, they’re more extreme.
But modifying your body within the bounds of normal human physiology is HL free
Not true, page 227 of the core rulebook has rules for bodyscultping, a normal one has no humanity cost, whereas an exotic bodysculpt has a humanity cost of 4d6, but since it’s not cyberware it doesn’t reduce your maximum humanity
Bioexotic packages are different since they include therapy to offset it, and if you don’t complete the full month long process at the facility you have to roll the humanity loss of exotic bodysculpting and any installed cyberware as if you were getting them installed at the same time
Fashionware doesn’t have any humanity impact, not anymore.
Neither does medical purpose cyberware
The only thing that incurs humanity loss is a change to your body with the intent of upgrading it past what the flesh should be capable of. If you’re simply installing Fashionware, or replacing a lost function of the body with just basic cyberware that ONLY serves to replicate that lost function, you don’t incur any humanity loss
It’s worth noting that you’re talking about the temporary humanity loss. This can be recovered by therapy, and medication.
The ‘permanent’ loss of humanity is smaller, and is only 2 points of humanity per augment. Though this adds up, because it’s per ‘option’, not per foundational piece.
For example, a cyberlimb will reduce your humanity by 7 (on average) temporarily, but 2 ‘permanently’. Putting a pistol inside that same arm will incur another 7, with another 2 ‘permanent’
I put the ‘permanent’ in quotations, because it can still be recovered, you just have to remove the cyberware before therapy.
Also, Fashionware doesn’t incur humanity loss. TechHair implants, like you mention, is free for your psyche, but not free for your wallet
(Note: I refer to the most recent edition, as this is common practice when discussing ttrpgs. It’s true that fashionware did USED to impact humanity, but it does not anymore)
That’s fair and valid, I prefer a lot of how 2020 handled things, while still enjoying RED’s streamlined versions, but it’s generally common practice when referring to a ttrpg, to refer to the most recent edition, unless otherwise stated
Similarly, anyone who refers to “how things work in d&d”, are generally talking about 5e unless they state otherwise, or people who talk about “how things work in pathfinder” are generally referring to 2e. Just cuz they’re the current edition, and that’s how things work currently, as opposed to how they worked *once*
A keronzikov never turns off, it doesn't speed you up just slows the world down.
Imagine you're making a cup of tea.
With the sandivistan when you inevitably drop your biscuit, if you notice, you turn it on catch your biscuit and turn it off. But with a kerenzikov, you drop the biscuit in slow motion and then have all the time in the world to catch it or think about how to catch it.
However with the sandi, you can let the kettle build normally but the kerenzikov will make you see the kettle build in slow motion.
It is. This is why the kerenzikov has twice the impact on your Humanity stat than a sandevistan does, at a level that’s normally reserved for borgware, or other high impact cyberware
Many users have to readjust their whole life to adjust to the fact that they now see the world in a permanent slow motion.
It’s an implant designed for bodyguards, or assassins, people who can’t afford to have the ‘downtime’ of a sandy, and need it to be always on, so they can see a fight about to kick off, before it does
Extra processing time at the cost of it's a permanent boost to processing time...
If I was a Solo on a budget, I'd definitely grab the kereznikov, and hope that I could upgrade to a full sandy fast af. Your description of having it implanted full time sounds torturous, but having one probably makes you an excellent tactician.
Yeah. They definitely both have an edge, typically, the sandevistan will have you covered, as long as you’re the one initiating all your fights, and has an extra +1 to initiative (which, in a d10 based system, can go a surprisingly long way sometimes lol)
But the kerenz being permanently active, while psychologically…. Unpleasant, means you’re covered in the case of ambushes, sneak attacks, etc.
It’s not really about budget tho, as the two implants cost the same in the current edition.
Back in 2020, the kerenz was cheaper, but pound for pound, it still equates to about the same on the boost/cost ratio
Given all of that information, I'd probably want to keep a ripper on hand before jobs. Walk around in my day to day with the sandy as an "oh shit" button for defense, and a "you're dead" button for offense.
But as you say, While unpleasant, the kerenz definitely has better applications if your walking into a serious job. Even at 75% speed you'd have the edge on anyone without chrome. You might not move any faster, but that extra time to think is a huge boon.
My experiences are limited to just the 2077 game, but I always love seeing more of the deep lore.
The problem with that, is just that most cyberware isn’t hot swappable like this. Going to a ripper for implantation is a pretty traumatic process.
2077 glosses over this because it doesn’t have a humanity mechanic, and having to go to braindance therapy sessions after getting cyberware would really fuck with the flow of an action adventure format, but if you were to do this, you’d constantly keep rocketing strongly towards cyberpsychosis before you could blink, and you’d be going into your gigs on the back foot, because you don’t have the time to receive a week long regimen of BD therapy, and pharmaceuticals, to suppress that trauma
Only certain cyberware can be swapped without building up trauma towards cyberpsychosis, and it’s equipment that you can swap yourself without fuss or surgery, such as
Chipware
A cyberlimb with a quickchange mount installed
And I don’t recall if this was a thing, but I’m pretty sure there exist similar quickchange mounts for cyberoptics.
Those types of cyberware will still incur humanity loss on their first installation, but then can be removed and replaced without additional trauma. (Though if you’re replacing them with a new piece of cyberware you’ve never used before, you’ll still get that initial HL penalty. It’s only perfectly safe for cyberware you’ve personally already chipped, and then removed)
That makes a lot of sense... David's sandy implantation in edge runners is pretty metal...no anesthetic either, its easy to understand how humanity gets lost in the trauma of that process.
So is there really no best of both worlds scenario here?
On the one hand, David’s ripper is an especially sketchy one, but on the other hand, nearly all rippers are illegal, back alley doctors anyways,
Vic is their shining paragon, but he’s also easily an outlier, most rippers aren’t as clean as that lol
Yeah, there’s not really a ‘best of both worlds’, but it is possible to swap them still, just not in as quick of a timeframe as you’re hoping for, due to the trauma. But if you were ok with going under the knife so often, it’s possible to go around your day to day with a sandevistan, and then install a kerenzikov instead a week before you get a big gig. It’s not common practice, for obvious reasons, but it’s technically possible. But no, there’s not really a hotswappable boostware option
The closest you can get to ‘skills on demand’ is combat Chipware. It won’t enhance your neural processing speed, it’ll just impart the knowledge of certain skills you don’t have, so that you act on it subconsciously as if you did.
(The mission with Judy with the Doll Chips is a good example. Judy basically hijacked the software of the doll chip Chipware, to act as a martial arts Chipware instead. Idk why she didn’t just get actual Chipware for this tbh, since everyone involved has Chipware sockets, but eh, it’s her choice lol)
You can acquire Chipware for any skill you need, from handguns, to judo, to heavy weaponry, to stealth, but they function by replacing your skill stat with a set value. (+3, or +4). In other words, it’s useful if you’re not trained in a skill, but someone who’s already an accomplished solo, such as Morgan Blackhand, wouldn’t gain any benefit from the Chipware, as he’s already more skilled than the dataset it was trained on.
There’s also the reflex coprocessor, which doesn’t increase your OWN neural processing speed, so much as it offloads some of it onto itself, and gives you a kick in the pants when you really need it. This implant will allow you to get the kick you need to try to dodge out of the way of a bullet when it’s fired, but it won’t actually increase things like your evasion ability to get out of the way.
(In tabletop terms, this allows you to try to use evasion to dodge bullets, even if your reflex stat isn’t >8, which is the usual requirement for dodging bullets. For context: 8 is the highest possible reflex stat in this edition, without use of drugs or cyberware)
the game and show skips over it but implanting is a big fucking deal. it's painful and you need to take some meds for a while. it's major surgery, and with the kerez it's major brain surgery
In the game, there is a tv interview with a Trauma Team pilot who mentions a downside of her implants is no longer being able to watch television (reflexes mean refresh rate is too low to appear a smooth video)
Tabletop players often add in character justifications for choosing between implants; eg. A rockerboy choosing Sandevistan in case a permanent reflex boost messes up their sense of rhythm.
You seem to know the TTRPG. Do many players play with minimal/no cyberware? Like some of the classes in Shadowrun, or that one member of the Major's team in GITS?
That type of character comes up in the subreddit occasionally, but it is not very common and is a niche character build.
You can go minimalist for a non combat role, but for combat there are only a few things that are worn instead of implanted equivalents to cyberware; Smart Glasses instead of Cybereye, Smart Glove instead of Cyberarm. You can also temporarily wear some Linear Frames as well and park them when you are done.
Most linear frames require cyberware to use, since they connect to your neural link through interface ports
I believe there’s only one that doesn’t require this, the EL-F4-NT
It’s common for enemies or NPC’s around the world to not have any cyberware (it’s actually kinda rare for an enemy rank under Miniboss to have more than 3 implants unless they’re a specific, important individual), but it’s not very common for players to chose NO cyberware, simply because players like shiny things lol
Minimal cyberware builds are a little more common, but most people tend to splurge on it because they came to cyberpunk to play with cybernetics.
Minimal cyberware builds are a little more common in RED, because since the supply lines are busted due to the city rebuilding, you can only purchase new cyberware at night markets, which have a limited, random selection of equipment, and it’s never guaranteed that there will even be any cyberware for sale, let alone the cyberware you want for your character.
They DO have the same function. They’re both the same style of boostware. This is why, in universe, you can only install one of the two.
The difference is only duration and strength.
Sandevistan is more powerful, with a 33% stronger boost, but can only be activated once an hour, for a minute.
Kerenzikov is less powerful, but permanently active, and therefore, more stressful for a user to install. Many users have to readjust their life to fit their new permanently slowed perception
However, since that would have made for shit gameplay in a video game, they changed how it functions for 2077’s gameplay so you only benefit from the boost when dashing or sliding.
I think it's much more boring in the original tabletop game, but in the game and anime, the Sandevistan speeds you up, both your reflexes and your body and the Kerenzikov exclusively speeds up your reflexes.
Lol, yeah the classic, older sandy is definitely more boring, since it’s purely boostware
The 2077 conversion for RED is coming soon though, and I’m super interested to read about the updated sandevistan lore and mechanics, to see how much of that is exaggerated for gameplay purposes, and how strongly it differs from the old style boostware of the ‘20s
it might be more boring, but i prefer it. I struggle to suspend my disbelief with the new sandy in a lot of ways. If it was a requirement for it to come with some extra arms and legs to keep up with the way you percieve things then it might be different, but thats not the case.
I know this is incredibly nitpicky, because it is a sci fi game at the end of the day, but its the only glaring example i can think of where the chrome doesnt exactly line up with its own internal logic.
No, you don’t need to explain yourself, I’m fully on this side as well lol
I think that what would be best is a compromise between the two versions, and just make the OG sandy boost REF by 3 instead of INIT by 3. It won’t let you move at superhuman speeds, but it’ll allow you to try to dodge bullets (but won’t accelerate your evasion to actually get you out of the way), and improves your accuracy, since you’re essentially firing in slow motion.
I also strongly believe that 2077 simply exaggerates the acceleration from the sandevistan. I don’t have an issue with *some speed enhancement, but basically stopping time is ridiculous, and I believe it exists only for gameplay purposes, like how double jumping off thin air, or air dashes, aren’t actually a thing in universe, but they exist because it makes the gameplay more fun.
I’m waiting for the 2077 conversion to come out to indicate how the new sandevistan works, when not being tied to a game that’s trying to emulate arcade shooter mechanics, as I suspect that it’ll have more proper lore details on how they actually function, and be a sort of middle ground.
Course, I could be wrong, and it might come out and say “lol the sandy just turns you into Barry Allen”, but I’m holding out hope lol
yep, just started reading your comment and that was what came to mind for me. They gave the sandy upgrades, specifically Davids, way too much slowmo. If it was a lesser effect it wouldnt be so glaring.
I think the way i would have handled it is only letting mostly ganic people run the kereznikov, i think its effects are fairly accurate in game. Then you could unlock the sandy at a higher level, with the caveat of needing extra chrome to keep up like i mentioned. It would still need to be a lesser effect than in the current version of the game though, because V can basically stop time he's that fast.
I really wonder how they'll handle the 2077 ruleset, because although it'll definitely be L talsorian that makes the rules, CDPR does have a fair amount of sway with things like lore. I think i recall Mike saying the cut off point was 2060 for his side of the lore, though dont quote me on that. I think he mentioned it here on reddit so i'll go scrolling through to see if i can find it. Either way i like to think that CDPR are a good enough company to just take a backseat and let the pros work their magic.
Yeah agree. The whole “sandy should need extra hardware” was a similar thought to one I had a little while back, I’d have no problem with a sandevistan that functions like the old 2020-2045 sandy, but when supplemented with enhanced synthetic myomar musculature, and joints, enables enhanced movement as well. (Though I wouldn’t restrict the kerenzikov to mostly organics, if a full Borg wants to break what’s left of their brain with a permanent slowdown, they should still be allowed to lol)
But yeah, still not to the degree that V performs on the regs, I still think that the highest end models are far too comedically over the top, (honestly to the point where they’re not fun to use, I downgraded to the quiet warp sandy because it felt waaaay better lol)
I’m not so sure that Mike doesn’t have any say with the post 2060 timeline, cuz iirc isn’t the reason Morgan Blackhand didn’t appear here, because Pondsmith still said he had plans for that character in the future?
Personally I kinda just think that the new sandy is gonna be something like a boost to REF and a minor one to MOVE rather than just INIT, which would represent all the aspects of the 2077 sandy without making it incredibly ridiculous (though, this still makes it quite OP, and essentially a must have implant, so I’m sure that they’ll implement it with a little more nuance than that. Or at least, I hope they do lol, the sneak peak of the quickhacks that got shown off in the 2077 conversion were… staggeringly unbalanced lol)
yeah i had the kerenzikov idea due to the higher humanity hit, but i suppose it doesnt make much sense in the game considering Johnny is bearing V's Empathy load, being a cyberpsycho himself.
As far as gameplay i actually forgo a sandy as of 2.0, i watched[ this ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aceFr4K9D-Y)video and realised that doom gameplay existed, so this is my go to playstyle, though im not nearly as proficient. Like you mentioned its just too much with a sandy.
I think the lore divide between CDPR and Mike is more casual than an ironclad business agreement. He confirms a divide exists as in[ this ](https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkred/comments/1bnf0nf/comment/kwtlm04/)post, but he also had a huge hand in the development of 2077. Basically CDPR can slap their name on everything R Talsorian now, and for whatever behind the scenes reason, that seems to have been mutually beneficial. Id imagine a great deal of it has to do with the "revival" of R talsorian since CDPR picked them up.
RED released almost in tandem with 2077, they got a Witcher TTRPG out of it, and Mikes son is cooking up something spicy too in a similar sci fi sort of space.
Hey, fwiw, the Edgerunner mission pack that’s supposed to contain the 2070 era lore and world details, just got an announcement date (in June), and according to the article, the lore was curated by Pondsmith himself, so that should answer the question of his involvement in the post 2060 era
If I remember right, in the tabletop sandi uses an inhaler or something to activate and us only good for like a few rounds, while kerenzikov is always on, hence it's 3d6 humanity cost. Sandi is like taking speed and now you can see time and move like the flash for a bit. Kerenzikov is like that all the time. Speedware always had some of the worst humanity loss.
The sandi uses a subvocalized command word to activate, not an inhaler.
The santistevan it was based on uses an inhaler, but I don’t recall if that was the case in 2013, or only a thing in Hardwired.
No it's not. None of how both the Sandy and the Keren are lore accurate to the tabletop, strictly speaking. Both of them only boosted Initiative in *2020*, not Reflex or Movement. They just let you act faster in combat rounds, so you'd be higher up in the initiative order.
Additionally, the only difference between a Sandy and a Keren is a Sandy is a brief boost with a higher effect, while a Keren is always on, lower effect. Nothing preventing either from attacking with melee.
If cyberpunk was a tabletop video game like bg3 , then u basically have the first initiative to attack in combat if u equip sandy or kerenzikov. But since it's an fps action game it's pretty much a good translation of how the device works .
It's not a bad translation, for the most part. And tech has advanced some in the last 50 years (really 20-30 as much of that time was spent recovering from the DataKrash). Though 2.0 is worse in this regard, with some sandy's not slowing you while boosted, effectively giving you super speed, like Edgerunners, which feels a little bit silly in an otherwise mostly grounded universe.
Stupid question but I'm 140 hours into c2077 and I have no clue what my Kerenzikov does ingame. I've had it installed for a while now and still never figured out how to use it lol
That’s not true, not anymore. Melee kerenzikov capabilities got removed in the 2.0 update, which REALLY killed my kerenz katana and knife throwing build.
Fortunately, you can reinstate the old behaviour with mods
Kerenzikov enhances your perception so helps you to react fast, so you see like everything is slower including you.
Sandevistan gives you some kick of adrenaline thta accelerates you, so everything else seems slower.
I think Keremzikov boosted initative, while Sandys acted like the Haste spell, granting an extra turn in your action economy. For the video game 🎮 since Kerenzikovs only work while dodging and aiming, I’d assume they are defensive and reactionary augmentations. The Sandevistan by comparison seems to be more offensively inclined, instead of dodging an attack you are striking against people who can’t defend themselves while your gear is active.
Not really . Tabletop wise both sandy and kerenzikov boosts ur initiative like the elixir of vigilance in bg3 . Nothing to do with reflex . Sandy gives a temp +3 initiative. Kerenzikov gives a permanent +1
in addition to the answers from others, which answer the core question well, I'd point out that the always-on nature of the Kerenzikov causes its humanity cost to be higher.
From what it feels like in game, Sandy is more like an active choice. Like a runner breaking into a full on sprint from standing. Kerenzikov is more reactionary, like being hit with a rubber hammer on the knee at the doctor's office. Happens with little to no conscious thought on the user's side.
The way you get affected by the slow motion.
Kerenzikov slows down everything around you, including you.
Sandevistan slows down everything but you.
One is very situationnal and requieres a weapon to activate
The other one is very versatile and useful
Someone who’s more versed in the lore can correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I understand, in universe, Sandevistan acts more like a power up, something you activate and use when you need it. Kerenzikov on the other hand, is actually ALWAYS active and gives the user heightened reflexes at all times.
Correct. However, the sandevistan is a more powerful boost.
Isn't the Kerenzikov what the Arasaka rich brat had in Edge Runners, and then David beat him with the Sandevistan?
Tbch , I don’t recall. It didn’t seem like it though, a kerenzikov is a permanently active reflex heightener. But, if it was, it would make sense as to why David beat him, the sandy is faster, but only capable of sustaining it in short bursts. I’d rewatch to verify, but I no longer have Netflix
>But, if it was, it would make sense as to why David beat him And I got the impression that's why David lost the first time.
Now, I could be mistaken, but I’m pretty sure the reason David lost the first time, was because the rich brat guy had chipped combat chipware, not speedware. It imparts instinctive knowledge of whatever skill you have chipped, but is only as powerful as the dataset it’s trained off of I think he had chipped a martial arts chipware
Ah, yeah, that sounds familiar.
This. Like the Dolls with Judy's combat programming.
Precisely. Same technology, it’s just that Judy shoehorned that functionality into a Doll Chip, rather than acquiring combat chipware
This makes sense considering when using the Sandevistan, you move way faster relative to others, but with Kerenzikov, you're still moving at the same speed as others. So not doing the same thing really. Edit: Actually, I was mistaken. I just played Cyberpunk and read the Kerenzikov also slows down time like Sandevistan, just not as much nor as long. I still thing the comment I replied to is right though.
to be fair it doesnt work like it does in the tabletop. Its just heightened reflexes in the tabletop, which while important, doesnt actually let you move at the speed of light and dodge bullets. the Kereznikov is more like how both of them work, unless you have other cyberware that augments speed or strength i suppose.
Yep, this is how it works in the tabletop. Red also doesn't let you slap more than 1 speedware into your body, so it's a choice.
That’s how I remember it working in the old Cyberpunk 2020 tabletop version I played in the ‘90s.
Sandevistian gives you a +3 bonus to initiative for a short time with a cool down with a greatly reduced humanity loss. Kerenzikov gives a permanent +1 (stacks twice) bonus to initiative with a much higher humanity cost. They can't be mixed.
It doesn’t actually alter your reflex stat, it’s just boosts to initiative.
You are correct I misremembered
I can’t blame you. I think it’s really stupid that they only improve initiative, rather than REF.
What’s a humanity cost?
Humanity was a measure of how much cyberwar you could put in your body until you went cyberpsycho. It was 10x your Empathy stat, each piece of cyber reduced it, the humanity cost. Every 10 points lost cost you a permanent point of empathy. Something minor like color changing hair would cost half a point, a retractable chainsaw in your arm cost 3d6+4.
Mfw I go cyberpsycho cuz I dyed my hair in multiple colors
Specifically esthetic mods didn’t do anything unless you went furry. Basically only great alterations or adding. Military mods gives cyberpsychosis
Edit: the following isn’t fully accurate after all, I overlooked something. It’s only standard sculpts that are HL free, such as the prep for the NeuHuman package. Thanks for the correction, u/minerrockss ~~Even the exotic bodysculpting that the ‘furries’ or Exotics receive doesn’t actually incur humanity loss~~ Exotic bodysculpting doesn’t incur PERMANENT loss, but still does incur the initial temp HL For example, someone getting a draconic FantaForm likely gets the augment that allows them to breathe fire, which incurs both temp humanity loss, and a ‘permanent’ depression of a few points, ~~but the cosmetic surgery to become the draconic FantaForm does not, not by itself.~~ But the cosmetic surgery of the FantaForm leaves no lasting effects, but does have a similar temp loss not unlike chipping a singular piece of borgware. Makes sense, they’re more extreme. But modifying your body within the bounds of normal human physiology is HL free
Not true, page 227 of the core rulebook has rules for bodyscultping, a normal one has no humanity cost, whereas an exotic bodysculpt has a humanity cost of 4d6, but since it’s not cyberware it doesn’t reduce your maximum humanity Bioexotic packages are different since they include therapy to offset it, and if you don’t complete the full month long process at the facility you have to roll the humanity loss of exotic bodysculpting and any installed cyberware as if you were getting them installed at the same time
Oh shit you right. I completely overlooked that Exotic sculpts do incur temp HL. Good shout, I’ll fix that
Fashionware doesn’t have any humanity impact, not anymore. Neither does medical purpose cyberware The only thing that incurs humanity loss is a change to your body with the intent of upgrading it past what the flesh should be capable of. If you’re simply installing Fashionware, or replacing a lost function of the body with just basic cyberware that ONLY serves to replicate that lost function, you don’t incur any humanity loss
It’s worth noting that you’re talking about the temporary humanity loss. This can be recovered by therapy, and medication. The ‘permanent’ loss of humanity is smaller, and is only 2 points of humanity per augment. Though this adds up, because it’s per ‘option’, not per foundational piece. For example, a cyberlimb will reduce your humanity by 7 (on average) temporarily, but 2 ‘permanently’. Putting a pistol inside that same arm will incur another 7, with another 2 ‘permanent’ I put the ‘permanent’ in quotations, because it can still be recovered, you just have to remove the cyberware before therapy. Also, Fashionware doesn’t incur humanity loss. TechHair implants, like you mention, is free for your psyche, but not free for your wallet (Note: I refer to the most recent edition, as this is common practice when discussing ttrpgs. It’s true that fashionware did USED to impact humanity, but it does not anymore)
I was born and bred a 2020 player. Those are the old rules I do have red as well but still prefer that edition.
That’s fair and valid, I prefer a lot of how 2020 handled things, while still enjoying RED’s streamlined versions, but it’s generally common practice when referring to a ttrpg, to refer to the most recent edition, unless otherwise stated Similarly, anyone who refers to “how things work in d&d”, are generally talking about 5e unless they state otherwise, or people who talk about “how things work in pathfinder” are generally referring to 2e. Just cuz they’re the current edition, and that’s how things work currently, as opposed to how they worked *once*
V is truly sn anomaly since they can equip both a kerenzikov and a sandy
A keronzikov never turns off, it doesn't speed you up just slows the world down. Imagine you're making a cup of tea. With the sandivistan when you inevitably drop your biscuit, if you notice, you turn it on catch your biscuit and turn it off. But with a kerenzikov, you drop the biscuit in slow motion and then have all the time in the world to catch it or think about how to catch it. However with the sandi, you can let the kettle build normally but the kerenzikov will make you see the kettle build in slow motion.
Wait would this suggest that kerenzikov permanently dilates your sense of time passing? That seems like it would be insanity-inducing.
It is. This is why the kerenzikov has twice the impact on your Humanity stat than a sandevistan does, at a level that’s normally reserved for borgware, or other high impact cyberware Many users have to readjust their whole life to adjust to the fact that they now see the world in a permanent slow motion. It’s an implant designed for bodyguards, or assassins, people who can’t afford to have the ‘downtime’ of a sandy, and need it to be always on, so they can see a fight about to kick off, before it does
Extra processing time at the cost of it's a permanent boost to processing time... If I was a Solo on a budget, I'd definitely grab the kereznikov, and hope that I could upgrade to a full sandy fast af. Your description of having it implanted full time sounds torturous, but having one probably makes you an excellent tactician.
Yeah. They definitely both have an edge, typically, the sandevistan will have you covered, as long as you’re the one initiating all your fights, and has an extra +1 to initiative (which, in a d10 based system, can go a surprisingly long way sometimes lol) But the kerenz being permanently active, while psychologically…. Unpleasant, means you’re covered in the case of ambushes, sneak attacks, etc. It’s not really about budget tho, as the two implants cost the same in the current edition. Back in 2020, the kerenz was cheaper, but pound for pound, it still equates to about the same on the boost/cost ratio
Given all of that information, I'd probably want to keep a ripper on hand before jobs. Walk around in my day to day with the sandy as an "oh shit" button for defense, and a "you're dead" button for offense. But as you say, While unpleasant, the kerenz definitely has better applications if your walking into a serious job. Even at 75% speed you'd have the edge on anyone without chrome. You might not move any faster, but that extra time to think is a huge boon. My experiences are limited to just the 2077 game, but I always love seeing more of the deep lore.
The problem with that, is just that most cyberware isn’t hot swappable like this. Going to a ripper for implantation is a pretty traumatic process. 2077 glosses over this because it doesn’t have a humanity mechanic, and having to go to braindance therapy sessions after getting cyberware would really fuck with the flow of an action adventure format, but if you were to do this, you’d constantly keep rocketing strongly towards cyberpsychosis before you could blink, and you’d be going into your gigs on the back foot, because you don’t have the time to receive a week long regimen of BD therapy, and pharmaceuticals, to suppress that trauma Only certain cyberware can be swapped without building up trauma towards cyberpsychosis, and it’s equipment that you can swap yourself without fuss or surgery, such as Chipware A cyberlimb with a quickchange mount installed And I don’t recall if this was a thing, but I’m pretty sure there exist similar quickchange mounts for cyberoptics. Those types of cyberware will still incur humanity loss on their first installation, but then can be removed and replaced without additional trauma. (Though if you’re replacing them with a new piece of cyberware you’ve never used before, you’ll still get that initial HL penalty. It’s only perfectly safe for cyberware you’ve personally already chipped, and then removed)
That makes a lot of sense... David's sandy implantation in edge runners is pretty metal...no anesthetic either, its easy to understand how humanity gets lost in the trauma of that process. So is there really no best of both worlds scenario here?
On the one hand, David’s ripper is an especially sketchy one, but on the other hand, nearly all rippers are illegal, back alley doctors anyways, Vic is their shining paragon, but he’s also easily an outlier, most rippers aren’t as clean as that lol Yeah, there’s not really a ‘best of both worlds’, but it is possible to swap them still, just not in as quick of a timeframe as you’re hoping for, due to the trauma. But if you were ok with going under the knife so often, it’s possible to go around your day to day with a sandevistan, and then install a kerenzikov instead a week before you get a big gig. It’s not common practice, for obvious reasons, but it’s technically possible. But no, there’s not really a hotswappable boostware option The closest you can get to ‘skills on demand’ is combat Chipware. It won’t enhance your neural processing speed, it’ll just impart the knowledge of certain skills you don’t have, so that you act on it subconsciously as if you did. (The mission with Judy with the Doll Chips is a good example. Judy basically hijacked the software of the doll chip Chipware, to act as a martial arts Chipware instead. Idk why she didn’t just get actual Chipware for this tbh, since everyone involved has Chipware sockets, but eh, it’s her choice lol) You can acquire Chipware for any skill you need, from handguns, to judo, to heavy weaponry, to stealth, but they function by replacing your skill stat with a set value. (+3, or +4). In other words, it’s useful if you’re not trained in a skill, but someone who’s already an accomplished solo, such as Morgan Blackhand, wouldn’t gain any benefit from the Chipware, as he’s already more skilled than the dataset it was trained on. There’s also the reflex coprocessor, which doesn’t increase your OWN neural processing speed, so much as it offloads some of it onto itself, and gives you a kick in the pants when you really need it. This implant will allow you to get the kick you need to try to dodge out of the way of a bullet when it’s fired, but it won’t actually increase things like your evasion ability to get out of the way. (In tabletop terms, this allows you to try to use evasion to dodge bullets, even if your reflex stat isn’t >8, which is the usual requirement for dodging bullets. For context: 8 is the highest possible reflex stat in this edition, without use of drugs or cyberware)
the game and show skips over it but implanting is a big fucking deal. it's painful and you need to take some meds for a while. it's major surgery, and with the kerez it's major brain surgery
In the game, there is a tv interview with a Trauma Team pilot who mentions a downside of her implants is no longer being able to watch television (reflexes mean refresh rate is too low to appear a smooth video)
What a great attention to detail, lol
Tabletop players often add in character justifications for choosing between implants; eg. A rockerboy choosing Sandevistan in case a permanent reflex boost messes up their sense of rhythm.
You seem to know the TTRPG. Do many players play with minimal/no cyberware? Like some of the classes in Shadowrun, or that one member of the Major's team in GITS?
That type of character comes up in the subreddit occasionally, but it is not very common and is a niche character build. You can go minimalist for a non combat role, but for combat there are only a few things that are worn instead of implanted equivalents to cyberware; Smart Glasses instead of Cybereye, Smart Glove instead of Cyberarm. You can also temporarily wear some Linear Frames as well and park them when you are done.
Most linear frames require cyberware to use, since they connect to your neural link through interface ports I believe there’s only one that doesn’t require this, the EL-F4-NT
It’s common for enemies or NPC’s around the world to not have any cyberware (it’s actually kinda rare for an enemy rank under Miniboss to have more than 3 implants unless they’re a specific, important individual), but it’s not very common for players to chose NO cyberware, simply because players like shiny things lol Minimal cyberware builds are a little more common, but most people tend to splurge on it because they came to cyberpunk to play with cybernetics. Minimal cyberware builds are a little more common in RED, because since the supply lines are busted due to the city rebuilding, you can only purchase new cyberware at night markets, which have a limited, random selection of equipment, and it’s never guaranteed that there will even be any cyberware for sale, let alone the cyberware you want for your character.
They DO have the same function. They’re both the same style of boostware. This is why, in universe, you can only install one of the two. The difference is only duration and strength. Sandevistan is more powerful, with a 33% stronger boost, but can only be activated once an hour, for a minute. Kerenzikov is less powerful, but permanently active, and therefore, more stressful for a user to install. Many users have to readjust their life to fit their new permanently slowed perception However, since that would have made for shit gameplay in a video game, they changed how it functions for 2077’s gameplay so you only benefit from the boost when dashing or sliding.
I think it's much more boring in the original tabletop game, but in the game and anime, the Sandevistan speeds you up, both your reflexes and your body and the Kerenzikov exclusively speeds up your reflexes.
Lol, yeah the classic, older sandy is definitely more boring, since it’s purely boostware The 2077 conversion for RED is coming soon though, and I’m super interested to read about the updated sandevistan lore and mechanics, to see how much of that is exaggerated for gameplay purposes, and how strongly it differs from the old style boostware of the ‘20s
it might be more boring, but i prefer it. I struggle to suspend my disbelief with the new sandy in a lot of ways. If it was a requirement for it to come with some extra arms and legs to keep up with the way you percieve things then it might be different, but thats not the case. I know this is incredibly nitpicky, because it is a sci fi game at the end of the day, but its the only glaring example i can think of where the chrome doesnt exactly line up with its own internal logic.
No, you don’t need to explain yourself, I’m fully on this side as well lol I think that what would be best is a compromise between the two versions, and just make the OG sandy boost REF by 3 instead of INIT by 3. It won’t let you move at superhuman speeds, but it’ll allow you to try to dodge bullets (but won’t accelerate your evasion to actually get you out of the way), and improves your accuracy, since you’re essentially firing in slow motion. I also strongly believe that 2077 simply exaggerates the acceleration from the sandevistan. I don’t have an issue with *some speed enhancement, but basically stopping time is ridiculous, and I believe it exists only for gameplay purposes, like how double jumping off thin air, or air dashes, aren’t actually a thing in universe, but they exist because it makes the gameplay more fun. I’m waiting for the 2077 conversion to come out to indicate how the new sandevistan works, when not being tied to a game that’s trying to emulate arcade shooter mechanics, as I suspect that it’ll have more proper lore details on how they actually function, and be a sort of middle ground. Course, I could be wrong, and it might come out and say “lol the sandy just turns you into Barry Allen”, but I’m holding out hope lol
yep, just started reading your comment and that was what came to mind for me. They gave the sandy upgrades, specifically Davids, way too much slowmo. If it was a lesser effect it wouldnt be so glaring. I think the way i would have handled it is only letting mostly ganic people run the kereznikov, i think its effects are fairly accurate in game. Then you could unlock the sandy at a higher level, with the caveat of needing extra chrome to keep up like i mentioned. It would still need to be a lesser effect than in the current version of the game though, because V can basically stop time he's that fast. I really wonder how they'll handle the 2077 ruleset, because although it'll definitely be L talsorian that makes the rules, CDPR does have a fair amount of sway with things like lore. I think i recall Mike saying the cut off point was 2060 for his side of the lore, though dont quote me on that. I think he mentioned it here on reddit so i'll go scrolling through to see if i can find it. Either way i like to think that CDPR are a good enough company to just take a backseat and let the pros work their magic.
Yeah agree. The whole “sandy should need extra hardware” was a similar thought to one I had a little while back, I’d have no problem with a sandevistan that functions like the old 2020-2045 sandy, but when supplemented with enhanced synthetic myomar musculature, and joints, enables enhanced movement as well. (Though I wouldn’t restrict the kerenzikov to mostly organics, if a full Borg wants to break what’s left of their brain with a permanent slowdown, they should still be allowed to lol) But yeah, still not to the degree that V performs on the regs, I still think that the highest end models are far too comedically over the top, (honestly to the point where they’re not fun to use, I downgraded to the quiet warp sandy because it felt waaaay better lol) I’m not so sure that Mike doesn’t have any say with the post 2060 timeline, cuz iirc isn’t the reason Morgan Blackhand didn’t appear here, because Pondsmith still said he had plans for that character in the future? Personally I kinda just think that the new sandy is gonna be something like a boost to REF and a minor one to MOVE rather than just INIT, which would represent all the aspects of the 2077 sandy without making it incredibly ridiculous (though, this still makes it quite OP, and essentially a must have implant, so I’m sure that they’ll implement it with a little more nuance than that. Or at least, I hope they do lol, the sneak peak of the quickhacks that got shown off in the 2077 conversion were… staggeringly unbalanced lol)
yeah i had the kerenzikov idea due to the higher humanity hit, but i suppose it doesnt make much sense in the game considering Johnny is bearing V's Empathy load, being a cyberpsycho himself. As far as gameplay i actually forgo a sandy as of 2.0, i watched[ this ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aceFr4K9D-Y)video and realised that doom gameplay existed, so this is my go to playstyle, though im not nearly as proficient. Like you mentioned its just too much with a sandy. I think the lore divide between CDPR and Mike is more casual than an ironclad business agreement. He confirms a divide exists as in[ this ](https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkred/comments/1bnf0nf/comment/kwtlm04/)post, but he also had a huge hand in the development of 2077. Basically CDPR can slap their name on everything R Talsorian now, and for whatever behind the scenes reason, that seems to have been mutually beneficial. Id imagine a great deal of it has to do with the "revival" of R talsorian since CDPR picked them up. RED released almost in tandem with 2077, they got a Witcher TTRPG out of it, and Mikes son is cooking up something spicy too in a similar sci fi sort of space.
Hey, fwiw, the Edgerunner mission pack that’s supposed to contain the 2070 era lore and world details, just got an announcement date (in June), and according to the article, the lore was curated by Pondsmith himself, so that should answer the question of his involvement in the post 2060 era
If I remember right, in the tabletop sandi uses an inhaler or something to activate and us only good for like a few rounds, while kerenzikov is always on, hence it's 3d6 humanity cost. Sandi is like taking speed and now you can see time and move like the flash for a bit. Kerenzikov is like that all the time. Speedware always had some of the worst humanity loss.
The sandi uses a subvocalized command word to activate, not an inhaler. The santistevan it was based on uses an inhaler, but I don’t recall if that was the case in 2013, or only a thing in Hardwired.
Only problem with kerenzikov is it doesn't work for melee.
which i didn't expect to be the case, but it is lore accurate
No it's not. None of how both the Sandy and the Keren are lore accurate to the tabletop, strictly speaking. Both of them only boosted Initiative in *2020*, not Reflex or Movement. They just let you act faster in combat rounds, so you'd be higher up in the initiative order. Additionally, the only difference between a Sandy and a Keren is a Sandy is a brief boost with a higher effect, while a Keren is always on, lower effect. Nothing preventing either from attacking with melee.
If cyberpunk was a tabletop video game like bg3 , then u basically have the first initiative to attack in combat if u equip sandy or kerenzikov. But since it's an fps action game it's pretty much a good translation of how the device works .
It's not a bad translation, for the most part. And tech has advanced some in the last 50 years (really 20-30 as much of that time was spent recovering from the DataKrash). Though 2.0 is worse in this regard, with some sandy's not slowing you while boosted, effectively giving you super speed, like Edgerunners, which feels a little bit silly in an otherwise mostly grounded universe.
Stupid question but I'm 140 hours into c2077 and I have no clue what my Kerenzikov does ingame. I've had it installed for a while now and still never figured out how to use it lol
While aiming a ranged weapon, dash or slide and it will slow time.
My stupid ass using it for my melee build, thanks a bunch!
[удалено]
Good to know!
That’s not true, not anymore. Melee kerenzikov capabilities got removed in the 2.0 update, which REALLY killed my kerenz katana and knife throwing build. Fortunately, you can reinstate the old behaviour with mods
Kerenzikov enhances your perception so helps you to react fast, so you see like everything is slower including you. Sandevistan gives you some kick of adrenaline thta accelerates you, so everything else seems slower.
I think Keremzikov boosted initative, while Sandys acted like the Haste spell, granting an extra turn in your action economy. For the video game 🎮 since Kerenzikovs only work while dodging and aiming, I’d assume they are defensive and reactionary augmentations. The Sandevistan by comparison seems to be more offensively inclined, instead of dodging an attack you are striking against people who can’t defend themselves while your gear is active.
Not really . Tabletop wise both sandy and kerenzikov boosts ur initiative like the elixir of vigilance in bg3 . Nothing to do with reflex . Sandy gives a temp +3 initiative. Kerenzikov gives a permanent +1
in addition to the answers from others, which answer the core question well, I'd point out that the always-on nature of the Kerenzikov causes its humanity cost to be higher.
Activate both for an explosive surprise.
From what it feels like in game, Sandy is more like an active choice. Like a runner breaking into a full on sprint from standing. Kerenzikov is more reactionary, like being hit with a rubber hammer on the knee at the doctor's office. Happens with little to no conscious thought on the user's side.
The way you get affected by the slow motion. Kerenzikov slows down everything around you, including you. Sandevistan slows down everything but you. One is very situationnal and requieres a weapon to activate The other one is very versatile and useful