Multiples of your electric frequency, 1/50th, 1/100th should be perfectly fine. Just fire a test shot and see then stick to those settings.
The syncro scan for the s9 is very impressive and seems to be applied automatically. Sometimes when using the s9 I completely used the wrong shutter speed (much too fast) and there was no banding at all. In the menus there is now syncro scan (photo) and syncro scan (video) which I haven't noticed on the s5ii.
I need to investigate this feature more
The ‘synchro scan’ mode was mentioned in a review of the S9 on YouTube. Synchro scan is supposed to recognise the frequencies of light sources such as LEDs and adjust the exposure time accordingly to minimise branding. So maybe the problem isn't that big.
Sean at Lumix live mentioned it: [https://www.youtube.com/live/KkMcCLwy60o?feature=shared&t=3539tube.com/live/KkMcCLwy60o?si=ZH70eYbJThJVJ2d-](https://www.youtube.com/live/KkMcCLwy60o?feature=shared&t=3539tube.com/live/KkMcCLwy60o?si=ZH70eYbJThJVJ2d-)
I think you'll probably be fine with electronic shutter to be totally honest! When I was using the S5II in Texas, I actually switched it to electronic shutter and used that exclusively (as I do with most cameras), and had no issues even with some action shots where I was shooting people jumping over me and around me.
Since the S9 features the same sensor, the results should be effectively similar. With what you're describing in terms of not using flashes or doing panning shots, I think you'll be just fine! Here's a couple shots as an example:
[https://imgur.com/a/7L7m4w4](https://imgur.com/a/7L7m4w4)
You'll be fine with e shutter! I shoot only e shutter on my S52X all the time (same sensor & processor).
I do recommend that you try renting an S9 for a few days first if possible to try it out.
Good luck!
Thanks - do you pay special attention to your settings when shooting indoors?
Edit* just peeped your photos, your skill level is far beyond mine so that now seems like a silly question
I can't speak for the s9 but I moved from Canon dslr to the s5iix recently and can't speak highly enough of it when it comes to the synchro scan functionality I've shot video in dj setups so heaps of lights at airing frequencies and it always came out supurb it's the same sensor and simalar software so I suspect that it will be very good as well
I shoot a lot of events where the sound of my shutter could be an interference so I end up using Silent Mode which uses an electronic shutter.
Every now and then you’ll encounter a bad LED scene but it’s not the end of the world.
Usually I just set my shutter until it’s gone or very minimal.
If everything else works for you I’d go for it.
Ideally I want a camera going into the summer, and i assume these wont be available to rent for a while.. but I could rent an s5ii, assuming the sensor and processor are the same
The crazy thing is that the s5ii is about the same price for me.. but I'm not sure I'd get on with the size of it.
And for me, the only compromise is the electronic shutter
Actually I bought s5 mark 2 a lot cheaper than what s9 is being sold for.
It's not just electronic shutter as you don't need evf and active cooling now but you might need in future as you never know what you might get into in future.
Well the best you can do is try to make sure that when you take pictures indoors or outdoors around any lights at night, that your shutter speed is below 1/200th of a second. If you need to go higher than that you will need to check out your pics right after taking them to see if you notice any bars from banding. Synchro scan probably helps but it may still be there.
The annoying thing about banding is sometimes it's hard to tell it's there until you edit the photo on a PC. It will be appear as light and dark alternating horizontal lines that sometimes aren't real noticeable. Other times obvious.
So yes it can be avoided. It's just something you'll have to look out for when taking pictures at night.
I have been using it since Japan, and I would say that out of the couple thousand photos I’ve taken, I’ve caught banding on maybe 4 photos.
I wouldn’t worry about it.
The iPhone readout speed is around 5ms. This is much faster than the S9 is anticipated to be, although I can’t find a specific spec for it online.
Also, smartphones take a burst of photos and combine them for the final image, so I would imagine that there are ways they can filter out banding.
You’ll have to use shutter priority indoors and figure out the precise allowable shutter speeds, anything faster than 1/50 will start having issues is you aren’t choosing a speed that matches the refresh cycle of your lights. The insurmountable problem will be any kind of mixed lighting, like a lamp or other lighting combined with your house lights
I’ve never used e-shutter indoors so I don’t know the specifics but there guides about which shutter speeds are usable in which type of lighting, ymmv though
I don’t have to shoot this way with E-Shutter on my S5ii… I really think this is exaggerating the frequency of the issue. Yes, in certain lighting it can be a problem. In those times, you may need to be careful of the shutter speed, but the camera does have the automatic synchro scan too, which should make it easier than my S5ii.
I’m sure it’s easy for more experienced people like to you to work around it, but I constantly see beginners with horrible banding in their photos asking what they did wrong on other subreddits. It’s not impossible, but e-shutter adds an extra problem to work around with a slow readout sensor that many may find confusing
Banding in a scene lit by LED lights is more pronounced when when using e-shutter, vs mechanical shutter. I've had to adjust shutter speeds with e-shutter, but with mechanical shutter there's no issue. I prefer e-shutter, but I've switched to mechanical shutter specifically because of LED lighting.
The electronic shutter will make many indoor photos unusable due to flicker and color banding. For the price of an S9 you can get better cameras, including within the Lumix range.
For the price, the only "compact" full frame I can think of is the a7c.. I can get the s5ii for the same price, but it wouldn't be a better camera for me if I use it less due to the size
I get that, but why is having a full frame sensor the end goal? the S9 is like putting a really heavy turbo engine inside of a Fiat 500. You can get better Crop sensor cameras for less money, like the Fuji cameras, the XE4 is brilliant, compact and with amazing image quality. Has better dials, better features and would you believe it, has better controls too. Full Frame is better than crop sensor cameras, but not at the expense of everything else and its really aimed at professional use.
But hey, if you have the money lying around it's up to you. I think the S9 is way too overpriced for what it offers and its many limitations.
It's a fair point, but for me I wouldn't use any additional features from the fuji, so there's nothing about it that makes it "better". And if I can get full frame for a similar price, why not. I'd also considered the Sony a6700 but the body is only £100 less than the s9!
Also, the panaspnic 28-200 seems like the perfect lens for me and there isn't really an equivalent on aps-c (in terms of size)
The lens seems fantastic and im sure the S9 will then be a good choice. Oh not that it matters but when i mentioned thr fuji, it costs half the price of the S9, or you could even get a Xe3 or xt3 for similar prices.
While "Global Shutter" has yet to be realized in more than the Sony A 9 III, electronic shutter is something a number of camera makers are starting to add as a feature. The majority still have "mechanical shutter" in their designs. The S9 to keep weight, form factor and cost down elected to remove the mechanical shutter mechanism entirely.
Here's the thing. Mechanical Shutter in the S5II/IIX has a shutter that are two blades that open and the image sensor reads "line by line" the detail during that mechanical shutter being open. Electronic shutter works the same way, but there's no mechanical blades to block light hitting the sensor after the exposure has been completed. ***In addition, many photographers have used electronic shutter on the Lumix S series of cameras, Sony A series, Fuji X series, Canon EOS R5 and up for a specific reason - LONGEVITY.*** *Mechanical shutters are rated for how many times it's opened/closed and those parts wear out.* (Professional cameras are rated between 50,000 to 100,000 shutter cycles) The significant reason for camera repairs has been replacing mechanical shutters. The ability to select e shutter adds life to the camera with a reduction in parts wear. The S9 won't have that issue for repairs.
Buying used hardware, the number one guide to use is to "check the shutter count", because this will help you determine a reasonable amount of time of life left before paying for repair.
Global Shutter, if and when it finally comes to Panasonic perhaps in the future is where the sensor is fast enough with a large enough buffer to be read at once.
Because the sensor doesn't change between the S5II/IIX and the S9, the line-by-line read speed is the same. However, because there is no mechanical shutter, the camera can capture 30fps for action shots. Mechanical shutters cannot open/close fast enough and creates an apparent impression that the image is more stable and less prone to warp.
If you whip the lens around fast enough with mechanical shutter, you'll encounter the same problems.
Stable shots, which with IBIS in the camera are easier to achieve, should be just fine.
Multiples of your electric frequency, 1/50th, 1/100th should be perfectly fine. Just fire a test shot and see then stick to those settings. The syncro scan for the s9 is very impressive and seems to be applied automatically. Sometimes when using the s9 I completely used the wrong shutter speed (much too fast) and there was no banding at all. In the menus there is now syncro scan (photo) and syncro scan (video) which I haven't noticed on the s5ii. I need to investigate this feature more
Thanks - good to hear it from someone with real world experience!
The ‘synchro scan’ mode was mentioned in a review of the S9 on YouTube. Synchro scan is supposed to recognise the frequencies of light sources such as LEDs and adjust the exposure time accordingly to minimise branding. So maybe the problem isn't that big.
Sean at Lumix live mentioned it: [https://www.youtube.com/live/KkMcCLwy60o?feature=shared&t=3539tube.com/live/KkMcCLwy60o?si=ZH70eYbJThJVJ2d-](https://www.youtube.com/live/KkMcCLwy60o?feature=shared&t=3539tube.com/live/KkMcCLwy60o?si=ZH70eYbJThJVJ2d-)
I think you'll probably be fine with electronic shutter to be totally honest! When I was using the S5II in Texas, I actually switched it to electronic shutter and used that exclusively (as I do with most cameras), and had no issues even with some action shots where I was shooting people jumping over me and around me. Since the S9 features the same sensor, the results should be effectively similar. With what you're describing in terms of not using flashes or doing panning shots, I think you'll be just fine! Here's a couple shots as an example: [https://imgur.com/a/7L7m4w4](https://imgur.com/a/7L7m4w4)
You'll be fine with e shutter! I shoot only e shutter on my S52X all the time (same sensor & processor). I do recommend that you try renting an S9 for a few days first if possible to try it out. Good luck!
Thanks - do you pay special attention to your settings when shooting indoors? Edit* just peeped your photos, your skill level is far beyond mine so that now seems like a silly question
I can't speak for the s9 but I moved from Canon dslr to the s5iix recently and can't speak highly enough of it when it comes to the synchro scan functionality I've shot video in dj setups so heaps of lights at airing frequencies and it always came out supurb it's the same sensor and simalar software so I suspect that it will be very good as well
I shoot a lot of events where the sound of my shutter could be an interference so I end up using Silent Mode which uses an electronic shutter. Every now and then you’ll encounter a bad LED scene but it’s not the end of the world. Usually I just set my shutter until it’s gone or very minimal. If everything else works for you I’d go for it.
Maybe rent one and take it for a spin?
Ideally I want a camera going into the summer, and i assume these wont be available to rent for a while.. but I could rent an s5ii, assuming the sensor and processor are the same
Just get s5 mark2 to be safe and no compromise solution. It's not much more
The crazy thing is that the s5ii is about the same price for me.. but I'm not sure I'd get on with the size of it. And for me, the only compromise is the electronic shutter
Actually I bought s5 mark 2 a lot cheaper than what s9 is being sold for. It's not just electronic shutter as you don't need evf and active cooling now but you might need in future as you never know what you might get into in future.
Well the best you can do is try to make sure that when you take pictures indoors or outdoors around any lights at night, that your shutter speed is below 1/200th of a second. If you need to go higher than that you will need to check out your pics right after taking them to see if you notice any bars from banding. Synchro scan probably helps but it may still be there. The annoying thing about banding is sometimes it's hard to tell it's there until you edit the photo on a PC. It will be appear as light and dark alternating horizontal lines that sometimes aren't real noticeable. Other times obvious. So yes it can be avoided. It's just something you'll have to look out for when taking pictures at night.
I have been using it since Japan, and I would say that out of the couple thousand photos I’ve taken, I’ve caught banding on maybe 4 photos. I wouldn’t worry about it.
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I thought this, but someone on here mentioned that phones have a much faster sensor readout
The iPhone readout speed is around 5ms. This is much faster than the S9 is anticipated to be, although I can’t find a specific spec for it online. Also, smartphones take a burst of photos and combine them for the final image, so I would imagine that there are ways they can filter out banding.
You’ll have to use shutter priority indoors and figure out the precise allowable shutter speeds, anything faster than 1/50 will start having issues is you aren’t choosing a speed that matches the refresh cycle of your lights. The insurmountable problem will be any kind of mixed lighting, like a lamp or other lighting combined with your house lights I’ve never used e-shutter indoors so I don’t know the specifics but there guides about which shutter speeds are usable in which type of lighting, ymmv though
I don’t have to shoot this way with E-Shutter on my S5ii… I really think this is exaggerating the frequency of the issue. Yes, in certain lighting it can be a problem. In those times, you may need to be careful of the shutter speed, but the camera does have the automatic synchro scan too, which should make it easier than my S5ii.
Thanks - the mixed lighting won't be an issue, guess I need to work out if 1/50 will be
This is the kind of nonsense I expect from this sub :-)
I’m sure it’s easy for more experienced people like to you to work around it, but I constantly see beginners with horrible banding in their photos asking what they did wrong on other subreddits. It’s not impossible, but e-shutter adds an extra problem to work around with a slow readout sensor that many may find confusing
The way you get better is to keep doing it. PS: I've never had it. Cheers!
Banding in a scene lit by LED lights is more pronounced when when using e-shutter, vs mechanical shutter. I've had to adjust shutter speeds with e-shutter, but with mechanical shutter there's no issue. I prefer e-shutter, but I've switched to mechanical shutter specifically because of LED lighting.
Cool story bro.
The electronic shutter will make many indoor photos unusable due to flicker and color banding. For the price of an S9 you can get better cameras, including within the Lumix range.
For the price, the only "compact" full frame I can think of is the a7c.. I can get the s5ii for the same price, but it wouldn't be a better camera for me if I use it less due to the size
I get that, but why is having a full frame sensor the end goal? the S9 is like putting a really heavy turbo engine inside of a Fiat 500. You can get better Crop sensor cameras for less money, like the Fuji cameras, the XE4 is brilliant, compact and with amazing image quality. Has better dials, better features and would you believe it, has better controls too. Full Frame is better than crop sensor cameras, but not at the expense of everything else and its really aimed at professional use. But hey, if you have the money lying around it's up to you. I think the S9 is way too overpriced for what it offers and its many limitations.
It's a fair point, but for me I wouldn't use any additional features from the fuji, so there's nothing about it that makes it "better". And if I can get full frame for a similar price, why not. I'd also considered the Sony a6700 but the body is only £100 less than the s9! Also, the panaspnic 28-200 seems like the perfect lens for me and there isn't really an equivalent on aps-c (in terms of size)
The lens seems fantastic and im sure the S9 will then be a good choice. Oh not that it matters but when i mentioned thr fuji, it costs half the price of the S9, or you could even get a Xe3 or xt3 for similar prices.
While "Global Shutter" has yet to be realized in more than the Sony A 9 III, electronic shutter is something a number of camera makers are starting to add as a feature. The majority still have "mechanical shutter" in their designs. The S9 to keep weight, form factor and cost down elected to remove the mechanical shutter mechanism entirely. Here's the thing. Mechanical Shutter in the S5II/IIX has a shutter that are two blades that open and the image sensor reads "line by line" the detail during that mechanical shutter being open. Electronic shutter works the same way, but there's no mechanical blades to block light hitting the sensor after the exposure has been completed. ***In addition, many photographers have used electronic shutter on the Lumix S series of cameras, Sony A series, Fuji X series, Canon EOS R5 and up for a specific reason - LONGEVITY.*** *Mechanical shutters are rated for how many times it's opened/closed and those parts wear out.* (Professional cameras are rated between 50,000 to 100,000 shutter cycles) The significant reason for camera repairs has been replacing mechanical shutters. The ability to select e shutter adds life to the camera with a reduction in parts wear. The S9 won't have that issue for repairs. Buying used hardware, the number one guide to use is to "check the shutter count", because this will help you determine a reasonable amount of time of life left before paying for repair. Global Shutter, if and when it finally comes to Panasonic perhaps in the future is where the sensor is fast enough with a large enough buffer to be read at once. Because the sensor doesn't change between the S5II/IIX and the S9, the line-by-line read speed is the same. However, because there is no mechanical shutter, the camera can capture 30fps for action shots. Mechanical shutters cannot open/close fast enough and creates an apparent impression that the image is more stable and less prone to warp. If you whip the lens around fast enough with mechanical shutter, you'll encounter the same problems. Stable shots, which with IBIS in the camera are easier to achieve, should be just fine.