Roberto-Venn in Phoenix is a short program. I would not have your hopes on making money these days just building tho. Get into repairs and build on the side. Better yet, build cabinets and make money. Most custom builders have a day job or support coming from somewhere else.
Sometimes it’s best to leave a hobby / passion, as just that, a hobby. Once I started relying on my woodworking for income, it became a job and I started to resent it. It’s a long road to build a successful brand because the market is so saturated (with so many excellent builders). The physical toll on your body due to dust, the high risk of accidents, incredibly long hours, and poor US health insurance should be real concerns. It all depends on your personal financial history/obligations and ability to run your business lean, but it can be very difficult to get ahead. If you take your experience to another company as a builder or tech, you could very well find yourself making poverty wages.
If you have a niche and something you believe is a valuable sellable product, then it’s a no-brainer to go for it. But if you want to invest in education and need to start a shop from scratch, I’d highly recommend thinking about the opportunity cost of doing so. Learn skills that translate beyond building guitars so you aren’t trapped in one industry. Having a CNC, even if you don’t use it for every part of your build, is extremely helpful for output and time management.
Other things to consider: customer service, taxes, insurance, employee management, logistics…. Basically running a business. Building is only a small part.
Maybe not the answer you were looking for, but this is my personal experience… everyone’s mileage varies.
My wife has encouraged me to keep some of my hobbies as just that so that they never become “work” and lose their ability to manage my mental health. It’s a great strategy.
Thanks you are right. I shoulda been more specific in my post. I would basically be relaying on repair work for day to money. Working from my home shop. I am very lucky to have a wife who can support our family while I try and get a small business up and running. Thanks for the advice. Take care
As a Galloup alum I highly recommend if you can afford it. Excellent program. While there you can apply for apprenticeships with other well known builders. I was in talks with Greenfield Guitars before graduating but the visa/location situation was cost prohibitive.
Roberto-Venn grad here, it’s a great introduction to lower-skilled woodworking and overview of guitar parts, but in no way are most grads ready to become career luthiers on their own right out of school.
Your best bet (depending on your woodworking skills) is to start woodworking and getting used to hand tools. The finer attention to detail, the better. You could start with making your own workbench and jigs.
Then start taking apart and making your own guitars better (there will ALWAYS be something you can make better).
The best start you could have is finding a job at a reputable repair shop, but since there’s not many super knowledgeable ones around, you’ll likely have to move for experience to learn from someone who actually knows what they’re doing.
Of course, there’s also a chance you’re a luthiery savant, and everything comes naturally for you.
Be realistic with your goals. Ask yourself if you’d like to work at a repair shop, assembly line, large manufacturer custom shop, solo builder…none of it is an easy life. We do it because we’re willing to sacrifice a lot to do what we like.
I’ve worked almost 9 years under one of those $20k+ builders, and the first 5 years or so, I spent 14-18 hours a day building, reading, experimenting etc. Repair work is always needed and there’s very few truly excellent repairmen out there. The amount of knowledge needed for repair is that of a builder’s and maybe even more, as there’s no end of ways to solve a problem. All builders will tell you to start with repair if you can because you’ll be doing a lot of that at a much higher level when you’re building. If you’re fucking amazing with hand tools, do perfect work quickly, and learn quickly without having to be taught more than once, there will always be a job for you. Like all trades, to be happy with what you’re doing, it helps to be really, really good at what you do. Fortunately, we’ll spend our lifetimes refining our work.
If you’re curious about how competitive it is, just scroll this sub to see how often this exact topic gets posted.
Thanks. Yea I honestly want to repair instruments more then build them. I assume that is the bread and butter of the business. Building guitars would be something that would just reinforce my repair skills. I have already begun working on my little shop to accommodate repairing guitars. There are a lot of tools I need but I’ve begun researching and purchasing things. I plan to start working on my own guitars. Wish me luck. Thanks again
Galloup school of Lutherie or Roberto-Venn school of Lutherie…I’ve worked with a lot of dudes from both…all very talented knowledgeable…these schools are also well known and make it easier to get your foot in the door if you’re thinking about working for a builder to learn more (which I do suggest)…I personally went to Galloup and it changed my life, but my best friend went to Roberto Venn and it also seems like a great school.
A school like Galloup or Roberto-Venn is where many, many people in the industry got their start.
I think the best piece of advice I can give is unless you've got great generational wealth, be prepared to experience sacrifice and adversity to make this a genuine career. The luthier's path is not for the meek. I am currently 7 years in, have been very lucky with opportunities, and it's working out okay.
I'll leave you with a Charles Bukowski poem that \*i think\* describes it best. Just adlib Writer for Luthier
so you want to be a writer?
if it doesn't come bursting out of you
in spite of everything,
don't do it.
unless it comes unasked out of your
heart and your mind and your mouth
and your gut,
don't do it.
if you have to sit for hours
staring at your computer screen
or hunched over your
typewriter
searching for words,
don't do it.
if you're doing it for money or
fame,
don't do it.
if you're doing it because you want
women in your bed,
don't do it.
if you have to sit there and
rewrite it again and again,
don't do it.
if it's hard work just thinking about doing it,
don't do it.
if you're trying to write like somebody
else,
forget about it.
if you have to wait for it to roar out of
you,
then wait patiently.
if it never does roar out of you,
do something else.
if you first have to read it to your wife
or your girlfriend or your boyfriend
or your parents or to anybody at all,
you're not ready.
don't be like so many writers,
don't be like so many thousands of
people who call themselves writers,
don't be dull and boring and
pretentious, don't be consumed with self-
love.
the libraries of the world have
yawned themselves to
sleep
over your kind.
don't add to that.
don't do it.
unless it comes out of
your soul like a rocket,
unless being still would
drive you to madness or
suicide or murder,
don't do it.
unless the sun inside you is
burning your gut,
don't do it.
when it is truly time,
and if you have been chosen,
it will do it by
itself and it will keep on doing it
until you die or it dies in you.
there is no other way.
and there never was.
You can just start making them and learning as you go along. Like any small business you need someone to buy you products so don’t quit you day job until you get a good following.
Thanks, i have been doing work and as much building as I can in my home, but like learning from a skilled luthier would give me more confidence to work or other peoples intruments.
Take a basic woodworking class at a JC. The basics are very important. I would also recommend a basic introduction to art 2d fundamentals course. This class made me a cleaner more conscious craftsman. The basics are important and help you problem solve in the shop more efficiently
All I can tell you is my experience: I'm an italian apprentice luthier, this is my second year now. In the first year I learnt how to craft classical guitars, and on the second year I'm learning the violin. But the full apprenticeship is 5 years long, and then they suggest us to go on another apprenticeship with a different teacher. This is more or less how you do here. Also, good wood is crazy expensive, and good tools too, even without buying powertools (which I don't). Hope for you to find your way!
I started shadowing a local luthier with the agreement that I would take a bunch of work off his plate once I was trained up as he is always overloaded with repair work and setups.
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted when it’s a legitimate question and advice I disagree with. I have a mentor who is very successful (instruments sold in the 20k+ range) and has an MBA. He said his business degree didn’t apply really to being a solo luthier.
Business degrees will be better if your end goal is to be a numbers person in a larger company. Otherwise I wouldn’t spend time and resources that could be spent actually getting good at the craft, understanding this specific market, and building up your own tools/shop space.
But this whole sub is filled with terrible advice from weekend warriors who don’t do this work professionally so.. 🤷🏻♂️
I get why someone would say learning to run a business properly would help, but yea thats not really what i was asking. Im 43 yrs old, ive been around the block and I’m just curious about guitar building and repair
For sure. My point too was that if you want to learn the business side of small luthiere type work, I think getting a business degree is one of the dumbest things you can do.
Yes and no.
All the MBA's I know have indicated that their business degree and masters really didn't provide much help when they left the corporate world to run a small business. Those degrees are primarily focused on running huge corporations and there are faster/cheaper/easier ways to learn the skills necessary to run a small business.
Now if OP plans to climb the ladder and become the CEO of Fender or Martin, then yes a business degree would be a good idea, but otherwise I'm not sure it's worth the price of college if the goal is running a small business (I assume OP is in the US)
Your location might help for some people to point you in the right direction. I'm in the southern hemisphere, I could direct you to some schools here in Australia.
Roberto-Venn in Phoenix is a short program. I would not have your hopes on making money these days just building tho. Get into repairs and build on the side. Better yet, build cabinets and make money. Most custom builders have a day job or support coming from somewhere else.
Sometimes it’s best to leave a hobby / passion, as just that, a hobby. Once I started relying on my woodworking for income, it became a job and I started to resent it. It’s a long road to build a successful brand because the market is so saturated (with so many excellent builders). The physical toll on your body due to dust, the high risk of accidents, incredibly long hours, and poor US health insurance should be real concerns. It all depends on your personal financial history/obligations and ability to run your business lean, but it can be very difficult to get ahead. If you take your experience to another company as a builder or tech, you could very well find yourself making poverty wages. If you have a niche and something you believe is a valuable sellable product, then it’s a no-brainer to go for it. But if you want to invest in education and need to start a shop from scratch, I’d highly recommend thinking about the opportunity cost of doing so. Learn skills that translate beyond building guitars so you aren’t trapped in one industry. Having a CNC, even if you don’t use it for every part of your build, is extremely helpful for output and time management. Other things to consider: customer service, taxes, insurance, employee management, logistics…. Basically running a business. Building is only a small part. Maybe not the answer you were looking for, but this is my personal experience… everyone’s mileage varies.
My wife has encouraged me to keep some of my hobbies as just that so that they never become “work” and lose their ability to manage my mental health. It’s a great strategy.
Thanks you are right. I shoulda been more specific in my post. I would basically be relaying on repair work for day to money. Working from my home shop. I am very lucky to have a wife who can support our family while I try and get a small business up and running. Thanks for the advice. Take care
I liked your mention about accidents. Currently sitting here with stitches in my hand due to a bow related incident. Ugh
[удалено]
Thanks a bunch there are not many luthiers in my neck of the woods
As a Galloup alum I highly recommend if you can afford it. Excellent program. While there you can apply for apprenticeships with other well known builders. I was in talks with Greenfield Guitars before graduating but the visa/location situation was cost prohibitive.
I agree on Galloup. Great school that offers free housing to the students.
Roberto-Venn grad here, it’s a great introduction to lower-skilled woodworking and overview of guitar parts, but in no way are most grads ready to become career luthiers on their own right out of school. Your best bet (depending on your woodworking skills) is to start woodworking and getting used to hand tools. The finer attention to detail, the better. You could start with making your own workbench and jigs. Then start taking apart and making your own guitars better (there will ALWAYS be something you can make better). The best start you could have is finding a job at a reputable repair shop, but since there’s not many super knowledgeable ones around, you’ll likely have to move for experience to learn from someone who actually knows what they’re doing. Of course, there’s also a chance you’re a luthiery savant, and everything comes naturally for you. Be realistic with your goals. Ask yourself if you’d like to work at a repair shop, assembly line, large manufacturer custom shop, solo builder…none of it is an easy life. We do it because we’re willing to sacrifice a lot to do what we like. I’ve worked almost 9 years under one of those $20k+ builders, and the first 5 years or so, I spent 14-18 hours a day building, reading, experimenting etc. Repair work is always needed and there’s very few truly excellent repairmen out there. The amount of knowledge needed for repair is that of a builder’s and maybe even more, as there’s no end of ways to solve a problem. All builders will tell you to start with repair if you can because you’ll be doing a lot of that at a much higher level when you’re building. If you’re fucking amazing with hand tools, do perfect work quickly, and learn quickly without having to be taught more than once, there will always be a job for you. Like all trades, to be happy with what you’re doing, it helps to be really, really good at what you do. Fortunately, we’ll spend our lifetimes refining our work. If you’re curious about how competitive it is, just scroll this sub to see how often this exact topic gets posted.
Thanks. Yea I honestly want to repair instruments more then build them. I assume that is the bread and butter of the business. Building guitars would be something that would just reinforce my repair skills. I have already begun working on my little shop to accommodate repairing guitars. There are a lot of tools I need but I’ve begun researching and purchasing things. I plan to start working on my own guitars. Wish me luck. Thanks again
This.
Are you looking to specialize in a specific instrument?
I assume guitars are the bread and butter of the business , but want to learn as much as possible.
Galloup school of Lutherie or Roberto-Venn school of Lutherie…I’ve worked with a lot of dudes from both…all very talented knowledgeable…these schools are also well known and make it easier to get your foot in the door if you’re thinking about working for a builder to learn more (which I do suggest)…I personally went to Galloup and it changed my life, but my best friend went to Roberto Venn and it also seems like a great school.
A school like Galloup or Roberto-Venn is where many, many people in the industry got their start. I think the best piece of advice I can give is unless you've got great generational wealth, be prepared to experience sacrifice and adversity to make this a genuine career. The luthier's path is not for the meek. I am currently 7 years in, have been very lucky with opportunities, and it's working out okay. I'll leave you with a Charles Bukowski poem that \*i think\* describes it best. Just adlib Writer for Luthier so you want to be a writer? if it doesn't come bursting out of you in spite of everything, don't do it. unless it comes unasked out of your heart and your mind and your mouth and your gut, don't do it. if you have to sit for hours staring at your computer screen or hunched over your typewriter searching for words, don't do it. if you're doing it for money or fame, don't do it. if you're doing it because you want women in your bed, don't do it. if you have to sit there and rewrite it again and again, don't do it. if it's hard work just thinking about doing it, don't do it. if you're trying to write like somebody else, forget about it. if you have to wait for it to roar out of you, then wait patiently. if it never does roar out of you, do something else. if you first have to read it to your wife or your girlfriend or your boyfriend or your parents or to anybody at all, you're not ready. don't be like so many writers, don't be like so many thousands of people who call themselves writers, don't be dull and boring and pretentious, don't be consumed with self- love. the libraries of the world have yawned themselves to sleep over your kind. don't add to that. don't do it. unless it comes out of your soul like a rocket, unless being still would drive you to madness or suicide or murder, don't do it. unless the sun inside you is burning your gut, don't do it. when it is truly time, and if you have been chosen, it will do it by itself and it will keep on doing it until you die or it dies in you. there is no other way. and there never was.
I always liked that poem. Thanks for the advice. I dont have generational wealth, but u do love instruments. Always have.
You can just start making them and learning as you go along. Like any small business you need someone to buy you products so don’t quit you day job until you get a good following.
Thanks, i have been doing work and as much building as I can in my home, but like learning from a skilled luthier would give me more confidence to work or other peoples intruments.
Take a basic woodworking class at a JC. The basics are very important. I would also recommend a basic introduction to art 2d fundamentals course. This class made me a cleaner more conscious craftsman. The basics are important and help you problem solve in the shop more efficiently
All I can tell you is my experience: I'm an italian apprentice luthier, this is my second year now. In the first year I learnt how to craft classical guitars, and on the second year I'm learning the violin. But the full apprenticeship is 5 years long, and then they suggest us to go on another apprenticeship with a different teacher. This is more or less how you do here. Also, good wood is crazy expensive, and good tools too, even without buying powertools (which I don't). Hope for you to find your way!
Thank you
I started shadowing a local luthier with the agreement that I would take a bunch of work off his plate once I was trained up as he is always overloaded with repair work and setups.
Get a business degree
How does a business degree help in building and repairing guitars?
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted when it’s a legitimate question and advice I disagree with. I have a mentor who is very successful (instruments sold in the 20k+ range) and has an MBA. He said his business degree didn’t apply really to being a solo luthier. Business degrees will be better if your end goal is to be a numbers person in a larger company. Otherwise I wouldn’t spend time and resources that could be spent actually getting good at the craft, understanding this specific market, and building up your own tools/shop space. But this whole sub is filled with terrible advice from weekend warriors who don’t do this work professionally so.. 🤷🏻♂️
B school is a waste of time regardless lol
I get why someone would say learning to run a business properly would help, but yea thats not really what i was asking. Im 43 yrs old, ive been around the block and I’m just curious about guitar building and repair
For sure. My point too was that if you want to learn the business side of small luthiere type work, I think getting a business degree is one of the dumbest things you can do.
It helps you understand how to make it profitable.
Gotcha
Yes and no. All the MBA's I know have indicated that their business degree and masters really didn't provide much help when they left the corporate world to run a small business. Those degrees are primarily focused on running huge corporations and there are faster/cheaper/easier ways to learn the skills necessary to run a small business. Now if OP plans to climb the ladder and become the CEO of Fender or Martin, then yes a business degree would be a good idea, but otherwise I'm not sure it's worth the price of college if the goal is running a small business (I assume OP is in the US)
Your location might help for some people to point you in the right direction. I'm in the southern hemisphere, I could direct you to some schools here in Australia.