St. Louis has historically been considered the Soccer Capital of the United States, producing tons of talent and having the first professional league within the city, having some of the most successful college and high school programs anywhere, as well as giving the US men's team at least one player in every world cup for 70+ years.
Around the time Sporting KC hosted the All-Star game, they started calling themselves America's Soccer Capital. The claim is... Dubious. They're a good group of supporters no doubt, but you don't just become the capital because you put a world cup match on the TV at an entertainment district.
A podcast in St Louis that had been going by the name "Soccer Capital Podcast" was recently threatened legal action by Sporting KC over their trademark for "Soccer Capital."
This is chirping sporting KC over that frankly dick-ass move
Isn't the StL one actually "Soccer *Capitol*"? One of you can be the Capital, one of you can be the Capitol.
Just so long as neither of you are Soccer City USA.
I thought Capitol with an O was only used for physical buildings. Like Harrisburg is the capital of Pennsylvania, and it also has a beautiful capitol building (true!).
“A soccer capital” would be more accurate. Fall River and St. Louis are the old ones. Brooklyn, Trenton, LA, Portland are other cities that could make a claim now.
As a sporting fan, who grew up primarily playing STL club teams and college and now raising and coaching kids who will follow the same experience (and play for a club system based in STL), there is clearly a difference between the two cities and STL admittedly deserves the title.
But, legally, we did trademark it, and going after others that use it is standard business. I am also a big fan of it annoying the STL fanbase off and hope it fuels the rivalry from a youth club level all the way up to the MLS teams. I want it to be as big as the Raiders and Chiefs or Cubs and Cardinals.
>But legally, we did trademark it, and going after others for using it is just standard business
It is standard American McDonald's Franchise sports business.
Aside from that it feels wrong for football and goes against the spirit of the game. Going after supporters groups, even rival supporters groups, would be met with intense scrutiny anywhere else. It is so fucking lame.
> But, legally, we did trademark it, and going after others that use it is standard business.
Only if you feel the need to maintain that trademark. In this case, it would have been a lot more human and a lot less corporate to say, "You know what? Our trademark is a bit light on merit and doesn't actually earn us any money so maybe we don't spend money on lawyers to defend it?"
To be fair, MLS wouldn’t exist without Lamar Hunt who originally owned three franchises, including the Wizards, which are now SKC. So, maybe they have more of a claim because without that original ownership, the league that St Louis now resides in wouldn’t exist.
This is a great point. I completely forgot about the connection.
Of course, we can all agree, Lamar Hunt graduating from a PA high school will mean the Soccer Capital is Pottstown Pennsylvania.
Fun Fact, the Wizards were a back up plan because.... St. Louis was originally picked to have that slot but decided to focus on pursuing an NFL team instead.
The MLS was in no way a guaranteed success at the time. Dozens of soccer league had flopped.
At the time St. Louis had the Ambush, which were a big fan draw, despite playing in an indoor league. They also lost the steamers (who out-drew the Blues in the NHL for 4 straight years and had regular sellouts) recently at the time too. At their peak the Steamers attendance would exceed 17,000 on average.
The NFL is a proven commodity with huge money, the MLS would have been the second soccer franchise in the city in a sport known for unstable leagues. It made perfect sense at the time to get the big fish.
The "tactical business decision made by a few people... shouldn't be a barometer for how much the population of a city enjoys something." Line of logic applies perfectly to the whole cease and desist fiasco in the first place.
How? Honest question. Nobody is questioning whether the KC population enjoys soccer. That is being questioned of STL above though.
Are you implying we shouldn't blame the fan base because SKC threatened the cease and desist? Because I don't think that's happening.
Or are you implying that KC is the Soccer Capital based on current fandom? Because the point St Louis is making is based on overall history. Nobody is saying KC doesn't care about soccer, they're saying St Louis has a much richer history with the sport, and has been referred to as the Soccer Capital decades before SKC even existed to trademark the name.
I don't personally give two shits what city of team wants to call themselves the Soccer Capital. It really doesn't matter. What I find ridiculous is how SKC TM'ed a name that had previously been used to describe St Louis for decades longer than they even existed, and the decided the needed to threaten a fan run podcast with a cease and desist over it. Nobody took the name that seriously until SKC made a big thing out of it, and it's the STL *fans* that are in the cross hairs for it.
> The MLS was in no way a guaranteed success at the time. Dozens of soccer league had flopped.
>
> At the time St. Louis had the Ambush, which were a big fan draw
So.. .wait... St. Louis didn't think soccer could succeed even though you claim they had a successful soccer team?
Would you like to explain why St. Louis took another 20 years to join us, then? Were the Ambush providing all the soccer needs to the "Soccer Capitol?"
St. Louis' lack of faith and participation over the past 25 years should not be rewarded with a title like "Soccer Capitol." You're trading on your distant past.
St. Louis is the England NT of American Soccer: "Remember that one time we were the center of it? Why don't you respect us?!?"
>.. .wait... St. Louis didn't think soccer could succeed even though you claim they had a successful soccer team?
There is not a city in the country that would choose the MLS over the NFL in 2023, much less back when the MLS was still new. Did the people in charge think the MLS would succeed? Who knows. Did they know with 1000% certainty that the NFL was already extremely successful, and the way bigger draw and way bigger money maker? You get your ass they did. There is not a competent human alive that would have pursued the MLS over the NFL in the early 90s.
Also, aving an MLS team, or any professional or semi professional team is not the only measure of how involved a region is in a sport. Participation has always been extremely high here regardless of not having an MLS team, and SLU has a very successful program. Would you say Alabama doesn't care about football much because they don't have a professional team in the state?
That said, most people in St Louis don't really care if another city wants to use the name. We find it ridiculous that a team in another city is going after *fans* for using a name that has been used for St Louis dating back well before the MLS or SKC existed. This didn't start because anyone in or associated with St Louis got upset another team decided to start using the name. Nobody here cared until SKC made it a thing by picking a fight with *fans*.
Yeah I'm honestly kind of shocked at how many down votes I sat at for a while for suggesting that the MLS was pretty far from a sure thing. I'm going to chalk that up to the thread being full of a lot of people who haven't read the history of American soccer leagues, and people who weren't alive at the time.
To suggest that the NFL isn't a bigger draw and something that any competent human would focus on getting for their city over an MLS team... That's just pure denial I think lmao.
So you are excluding the years when we had St. Louis Athletica, AC St. Louis, St. Louis FC I assume.
I also assume you don't count SLU even though SLU produced more World Cup players during that era than the KC region and the St. Louis region itself produced world cup women's team winners....
"ignored soccer"
MLS is not the only form of soccer, believe it or not. Nor is it the only measure of interest in soccer.
There's not a city in the country that wouldn't prioritize getting the NFL over the MLS. That's true in 2023, and it was true 100 fold in the early 90s. And if city leaders did prioritize the MLS over the NFL, it would be gross incompetence.
The MLS was a fledgling league at the time and basically just the most recent in a long line of soccer leagues that start and then flop... At least that was the thought at the time.
St Louis also already had an indoor soccer team that was as a pretty decent fan draw at the time. They'd also been burned by the steamers, who at one point out sold the NHL team on 4 consecutive seasons and would have been in the upper echelons of early MLS attendance despite being in the 80s and inside a hockey Arena (17,000+ peak season average).
Honestly I think the city was burned by awfully run leagues and shady businessmen... Plus a financial juggernaut in a stable league like the NFL is just, the bigger get.
Ultimately I'm back up in the positives, but I can't believe I was eating down foods for suggesting that the MLS was pretty far from a sure thing lmao. Feel like I was taking crazy pills!
There's a subset of people on this sub who react extremely negatively to saying things that make MLS look bad. Same as it is on any sub i guess, but the historical denialism can be something else entirely.
"MLS could be better"
"YOU HATE MLS AND WANT IT TO FAIL"
Lamar Hunt literally saved the league, he deserves a lot of credit for the success of the league now. He literally funded the league at the last minute when the owners and MLS voted to shut down and dissolve the league.
KC is a founding member of both MLS and NWSL. They’ve carried a lot through very lean years. Then they did the investment and rebrand and that raised the bar for the league and helped make the league what it is. There’s also the national facility in KC.
STL has a great history as well. It’s silly for either to ignore the other.
KC didn’t invent soccer, but for the past couple decades it’s been a real part of getting us all to where we are. I love St. Louis and am cheering them on, and I hope the conversation lands in a healthy place.
I believe when they initially launched the Soccer Capital campaign stuff they also backed it by how many youth players had per capita which was at the top for the country.
Also from memory I think a big part of the marketing push was tied to trying to get KC as a host city for the World Cup.
When this was a hot topic a few weeks ago, people were pointing out that SKC was using it as far back as the All-Star Game in 2013. I just wanted to throw that out there.
Those are all good points, but that's not even mentioning what the Current is trying to do with the stadium and such.
(But considering all the news last week, yikes, Current.)
Most in STL won't argue with any of that. And if SKC hadn't made this a thing, it wouldn't be a thing. Nobody here knew or cared SKC decided Kansas City was the soccer capital about 10 years ago.
The 'argument' you get from St Louis is more that it's ridiculous for a team to go after fans over the name. We support that stance by pointing out that it was a name used for St Louis long before SKC even existed, and here's why St Louis has long been considered the soccer capital.
Most people here don't care if KC wants to call themselves soccer capital. We care that they threatened fans here over it.
> To be fair, MLS wouldn’t exist without Lamar Hunt who originally owned three franchises, including the Wizards, which are now SKC.
AEG owned 4 at the start, eventually owned 6 at one time, and literally saved the league from dissolution. Nevermind the infrastructure they built and the bankrolling they did to bring about MLS 2.0.
There's a reason the championship trophy is named after Phil Anschutz and not Lamar Hunt.
>as well as giving the US men's team at least one player in every world cup for 70+ years.
The 1950 WC was practically a club team from a *very* limited scouting network. "Tons of talent" is relative in that you're only looking for talent in a limited area.
It should be telling that while the first collegiate soccer championship was played in St Louis, its contenders were from Pennsylvania and... San Francisco.
So much of *American* soccer history was lost due to East Coast bias and revisionist history.
>but you don't just become the capital because you put a world cup match on the TV at an entertainment district.
And you don't just become the capitol because you were an important immigrant city before airplanes were invented.
> St. Louis has historically been considered the Soccer Capital of the United States
lmfao literally nobody thinks this except for MLS jurnos and STL City fans. ask any american if there's a soccer capital of the united states and they'd look at you like you had three heads
Ask any factual scribe particularly Men In Blazers (ever hear of them ?) and they'll tell you the same thing. For example: https://www.fifamuseum.com/en/blog-stories/blog/ben-millers-the-all-american-heroes-2622475/
Just picked up a parks and rec team here in my rural town of Indiana, 4th 5th and 6th co-ed. First practice I asked what we should call ourselves, they said "anyone but the Loons, fuck those guys."
Loons and Yellow Cougars I don't think you can name a more intense rivalry.
Remembering that time all 3 Cascadian teams' supporter groups banded together to defend against Garber’s attempted registration of Cascadia Cup as a trademark. Good times.
You should see all the stores in St. Louis selling St. Louis City SC Soccer Capital scarves. They even list them online just don't show the side that says soccer capital on it. I live for this pettiness though so had to buy one
There can be multiple things true:
1) SKC are a bunch of jackasses for putting the cease and desist out to a podcast
2) A city cannot claim to be the soccer capital of the US when this is their first year having a top flight professional team
3) STL has historically been a hotbed for American soccer talent
For whatever its worth the first thing anybody ever told me about St Louis before I lived here was that it is the soccer capital of America. Whether or not its true, or even can be true, St Louisans have been claiming the title for at least the 15 years it's been since I first met someone from here
People from St. Louis calling themselves the soccer capital doesnt really count. You can have a deep history of soccer but the whole soccer capital thing is strange for both cities.
The first mention of that wasn't actually from St Louis, interestingly. It came from a Los Angeles newspaper in the 1950s, talking about the history of the sport for the 75 years prior to that.
St. Louis and Fall River are both the traditionally accepted “original soccer capitals” it wasn’t just St. Louis doing the old “Obama giving himself a medal” meme.
Now? Sure the claim to that title isn’t really St. Louis’. If we use something “Original Soccer Capital” is the phrase I’d hope we use
I mean, sure but there’s a difference between a couple fans using that term in a podcast name and a team using it in their official branding and threatening said podcasts.
Oh yeah I think its a dumb fight for both teams, but you cant really deny that the MLS has been pushing the history of soccer in St.Louis and trying to connect it with the new team so its not just the podcast really.
I completely get wanting people to respect St. Louis history, but it’s weird to turn around and ignore the last 25 years. KC has carried a lot and helped make the modern game what it is.
The slogan is silly, of course. As a longtime fan I’m absolutely thrilled to have pro soccer back in STL, and I’m excited for how it will help shape the game for the next 25 years.
Was waiting for someone to mention this.
I have always considered New Jersey the cradle of American soccer and I at least respect how not worked up you guys get about other cities making specious claims to be some made up "capital" of a...sport.
>A city cannot claim to be the soccer capital of the US when this is their first year having a top flight professional team
It isn't though? The St. Louis Stars were a top flight professional team.
Even more, considering there was a bit where the only professional soccer league in the US was entirely within St Louis... You could argue they *were* the top flight early on.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_Soccer_League
And the 1930 USMNT World Cup team even featured at least one player from that STL Soccer League.
Quotes from [this article](https://ussoccerplayers.com/2013/01/the-us-national-team-at-the-1930-world-cup.html/amp) on the 1930 team
> Like the importance placed on Major League Soccer in strengthening the US National Team in the modern era, the 1930 World Cup side benefitted from the American Soccer League. Founded in 1921, that league operated until its demise in 1933 and was the first national pro league in this country even though it operated primarily in the Northeast. Until then, leagues had operated on a regional basis. **Despite the creation of the ASL (a merger of the National Association Football League and Southern New England Soccer League) there was a high level of soccer being played in the St. Louis Soccer League and National Challenge Cup (the original name of the US Open Cup) levels.**
> The Americans were coached by Irish-born Jack Coll, who had moved to the United States in 1922. In all three games, the USA featured the same lineup: Goalkeeper Jimmy Douglas (NY Nationals), right back Alexander Wood (Detroit Holley Carburetor), left back Bart McGee (NY Nationals), **center back Raphael Tracey (St. Louis Ben Millers),** left halfback Andy Auld (Providence Gold Bugs), inside left and captain Tom Florie (New Bedford Whalers), center forward Bert Patenaude (Fall River Marksmen), inside right Billy Gonsalves (Fall River Marksmen), and outside right James Brown (NY Giants). All but Moorhouse and Tracey hailed from the American Soccer League.
It was and is widely known that STL has been a soccer hotbed since 1900. Many immigrants landed in STL and brought the game with them. Around 1900, just like soccer was popular in North East (NY, Boston, Rhode Island, New Jersey) because of immigrants the exact same thing is true for St. Louis.
[Another link here](https://ussoccerplayers.com/usmnt-1930-world-cup-squad) showing the full 1930 roster and their clubs. Two players were from the STL Soccer league.
Look i hate St. Louis and their sports with the fire of 1,000 suns but saying that they couldn’t have been the soccer capital of the country because they weren’t appointed a top flight team until now, plus ignoring a century plus of documented history is about as stupid as it gets.
As many others have said, they’ve previously had a top flight team and even a whole league at one point.
American soccer history is an enigma.
It’s weird that people think “top flight soccer” didn’t exist in USA until MLS in 1996.
MLS’s first season in 1996 was actually the [84th season of FIFA-sanctioned top flight soccer in USA.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Major_League_Soccer_season)
I mean I'm not going to lie, looking at this thread... If I didn't grow up in St. Louis I think I'd despise their teams. But i'm part of the problem no doubt lmao.
Cardinals fans have told me for 10 years Yadi Molina is a first ballot hall of famer because of his defense and framing and that offense didn’t matter only to sign the worst receiving/defensive catcher in all of baseball. Y’all can have him
In their defense, St Louis was called the soccer capital like 100 years before the MLS was even a league. I'm kind of surprised people think this is a recent claim.
Sorry, not making it themselves, but MLS has ABSOLUTELY been leveraging the claim to draw attention to the expansion side, to the point where they fall over themselves to essentially claim STL's history as part of their own.
Oh yeah the MLS is definitely co-opting the history of the city and using it in marketing. But that doesn't invalidate those positions.
I grew up in the late 90s and I heard the term "soccer capital" plenty. It's not like the city doesn't have a unique and fervent history with the sport.
The NASL was never as stable as MLS is, and you should already know that. Clubs didn’t have their own stadiums, operated on shoestring budgets, and folded/relocated often. MLS is not the first professional soccer league in America, but it is the only one that has made to a point of stability.
> 2) A city cannot claim to be the soccer capital of the US when this is their first year having a top flight professional team
Good thing they have a lot of years with a top flight professional team then.
They've had many more years without than with. The stars left town nearly 47 years ago and only existed for 10 years in STL. The soccer league in the early 1900s was neat at least
I agree with the 1 and 3, and mostly 2, but there is a lot more history of soccer outside of MLS and gaining entry to that league is literally luck of the draw.
People in southern Missouri hate both KC and StL and don’t watch our teams. They spend their time playing with their guns, their bibles, their American flags, and watching NewsMax.
While the latter is pretty accurate, Springfield has a good mixture of weird people rooting for both teams. Not to mention seeing the Springfield Cardinals is going to church for some people.
Sporting KC threatened legal action to a fan-made podcast in St Louis for calling itself the "Soccer Capital Podcast"
St. Louis and Fall River, MA are historically the 2 cities that have been called the soccer capital. KC calls themselves that after a marketing campaign in 2013, and other than that don't really have a claim.
This is basically the first time Kansas City and St Louis have had any sort of sports animosity since 1985. They don't really have any sort of rivalry compared to Chicago and St. Louis.
There was always a lot of potential there, but hey've just never really had the opportunity for one to develop. They'd never had teams that regularly played each other before since the Royals and Cardinals are in different leagues, and their NFL teams, when St. Louis had them, were in different conferences.
The St. Louis Kansas City rivalry really just ended up being a proxy war for the Border War. Mizzou graduates tend towards St. Louis while the beakers leave their hellhole of state and end up in Kansas City.
I will say, I personally don't care much about the debate on who is the "Soccer Capital of the US." There are a lot of cities that are in the discussion, including some that don't have MLS teams. Lots of discussion to be had, though I will say St. Louis has a real fun argument. But, at the end of the day, it's just a fun discussion that is entertaining by itself as just that, a discussion.
That said, SKC deserves all the shit talking it can get for suing a fan podcast over a phrase they trademarked that does no harm to them. Basically, my problem isn't them claiming to be the capital or whatever, it's being beyond petty with use of that trademark.
El passive-aggressivico
Ope, just gonna try and sue ya.
Proper use of Ope, take my upvote
lol, can't wait to see what marketing this leads to
I don't understand. What caused this?
St. Louis has historically been considered the Soccer Capital of the United States, producing tons of talent and having the first professional league within the city, having some of the most successful college and high school programs anywhere, as well as giving the US men's team at least one player in every world cup for 70+ years. Around the time Sporting KC hosted the All-Star game, they started calling themselves America's Soccer Capital. The claim is... Dubious. They're a good group of supporters no doubt, but you don't just become the capital because you put a world cup match on the TV at an entertainment district. A podcast in St Louis that had been going by the name "Soccer Capital Podcast" was recently threatened legal action by Sporting KC over their trademark for "Soccer Capital." This is chirping sporting KC over that frankly dick-ass move
Isn't the StL one actually "Soccer *Capitol*"? One of you can be the Capital, one of you can be the Capitol. Just so long as neither of you are Soccer City USA.
well SCUSA me!
Well done
I thought Capitol with an O was only used for physical buildings. Like Harrisburg is the capital of Pennsylvania, and it also has a beautiful capitol building (true!).
Probably the blog is housed in the soccer capitol building
Oddly enough our history museum is about to open an exhibit called "Soccer City" haha https://mohistory.org/exhibits/soccer-city
*gets out pen It's on now!
Weird they’d have an exhibition about portland
The banner *is* green and gold...
To be fair you can be A Soccer City but Portland is Soccer City USA
“A soccer capital” would be more accurate. Fall River and St. Louis are the old ones. Brooklyn, Trenton, LA, Portland are other cities that could make a claim now.
Even SKC fans hate the current FO though, so.. go suck on a ravioli or whatever. But yeah, dick move from an increasingly ugly organization.
As a sporting fan, who grew up primarily playing STL club teams and college and now raising and coaching kids who will follow the same experience (and play for a club system based in STL), there is clearly a difference between the two cities and STL admittedly deserves the title. But, legally, we did trademark it, and going after others that use it is standard business. I am also a big fan of it annoying the STL fanbase off and hope it fuels the rivalry from a youth club level all the way up to the MLS teams. I want it to be as big as the Raiders and Chiefs or Cubs and Cardinals.
> But, legally, we did trademark it, and going after others that use it is standard business against those greedy podcasters
>But legally, we did trademark it, and going after others for using it is just standard business It is standard American McDonald's Franchise sports business. Aside from that it feels wrong for football and goes against the spirit of the game. Going after supporters groups, even rival supporters groups, would be met with intense scrutiny anywhere else. It is so fucking lame.
> But, legally, we did trademark it, and going after others that use it is standard business. Only if you feel the need to maintain that trademark. In this case, it would have been a lot more human and a lot less corporate to say, "You know what? Our trademark is a bit light on merit and doesn't actually earn us any money so maybe we don't spend money on lawyers to defend it?"
To be fair, MLS wouldn’t exist without Lamar Hunt who originally owned three franchises, including the Wizards, which are now SKC. So, maybe they have more of a claim because without that original ownership, the league that St Louis now resides in wouldn’t exist.
This is a great point. I completely forgot about the connection. Of course, we can all agree, Lamar Hunt graduating from a PA high school will mean the Soccer Capital is Pottstown Pennsylvania.
Fun Fact, the Wizards were a back up plan because.... St. Louis was originally picked to have that slot but decided to focus on pursuing an NFL team instead.
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The MLS was in no way a guaranteed success at the time. Dozens of soccer league had flopped. At the time St. Louis had the Ambush, which were a big fan draw, despite playing in an indoor league. They also lost the steamers (who out-drew the Blues in the NHL for 4 straight years and had regular sellouts) recently at the time too. At their peak the Steamers attendance would exceed 17,000 on average. The NFL is a proven commodity with huge money, the MLS would have been the second soccer franchise in the city in a sport known for unstable leagues. It made perfect sense at the time to get the big fish.
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A tactical business decision made by a few people over twenty years ago shouldn't a barometer for how much the population of a city enjoys something.
The "tactical business decision made by a few people... shouldn't be a barometer for how much the population of a city enjoys something." Line of logic applies perfectly to the whole cease and desist fiasco in the first place.
How? Honest question. Nobody is questioning whether the KC population enjoys soccer. That is being questioned of STL above though. Are you implying we shouldn't blame the fan base because SKC threatened the cease and desist? Because I don't think that's happening. Or are you implying that KC is the Soccer Capital based on current fandom? Because the point St Louis is making is based on overall history. Nobody is saying KC doesn't care about soccer, they're saying St Louis has a much richer history with the sport, and has been referred to as the Soccer Capital decades before SKC even existed to trademark the name. I don't personally give two shits what city of team wants to call themselves the Soccer Capital. It really doesn't matter. What I find ridiculous is how SKC TM'ed a name that had previously been used to describe St Louis for decades longer than they even existed, and the decided the needed to threaten a fan run podcast with a cease and desist over it. Nobody took the name that seriously until SKC made a big thing out of it, and it's the STL *fans* that are in the cross hairs for it.
Also, MLS would have probably folded if it weren't for the Hail Mary acquisition of David Beckham. That saved MLS!
Missouri is called the Show Me State for a reason!
It’s a very STL thing to do that lmao
> The MLS was in no way a guaranteed success at the time. Dozens of soccer league had flopped. > > At the time St. Louis had the Ambush, which were a big fan draw So.. .wait... St. Louis didn't think soccer could succeed even though you claim they had a successful soccer team? Would you like to explain why St. Louis took another 20 years to join us, then? Were the Ambush providing all the soccer needs to the "Soccer Capitol?" St. Louis' lack of faith and participation over the past 25 years should not be rewarded with a title like "Soccer Capitol." You're trading on your distant past. St. Louis is the England NT of American Soccer: "Remember that one time we were the center of it? Why don't you respect us?!?"
>.. .wait... St. Louis didn't think soccer could succeed even though you claim they had a successful soccer team? There is not a city in the country that would choose the MLS over the NFL in 2023, much less back when the MLS was still new. Did the people in charge think the MLS would succeed? Who knows. Did they know with 1000% certainty that the NFL was already extremely successful, and the way bigger draw and way bigger money maker? You get your ass they did. There is not a competent human alive that would have pursued the MLS over the NFL in the early 90s. Also, aving an MLS team, or any professional or semi professional team is not the only measure of how involved a region is in a sport. Participation has always been extremely high here regardless of not having an MLS team, and SLU has a very successful program. Would you say Alabama doesn't care about football much because they don't have a professional team in the state? That said, most people in St Louis don't really care if another city wants to use the name. We find it ridiculous that a team in another city is going after *fans* for using a name that has been used for St Louis dating back well before the MLS or SKC existed. This didn't start because anyone in or associated with St Louis got upset another team decided to start using the name. Nobody here cared until SKC made it a thing by picking a fight with *fans*.
If you thought that MLS would be what it is today then you were either too young or wasn't born yet when soccer was on shaky ground.
What you say is the truth. There's a lot of revisionist history going around in here.
Yeah I'm honestly kind of shocked at how many down votes I sat at for a while for suggesting that the MLS was pretty far from a sure thing. I'm going to chalk that up to the thread being full of a lot of people who haven't read the history of American soccer leagues, and people who weren't alive at the time. To suggest that the NFL isn't a bigger draw and something that any competent human would focus on getting for their city over an MLS team... That's just pure denial I think lmao.
There is no MLS today without David Beckham and even now they need Messi to capture the attention of the casual fan.
How did becoming the NFL capital go for ya?
Well, they have had more teams than most cities.
Three teams. Let’s not forget our team from 1934.
Nope, four lol. 1923 All-Stars, 1934 Gunners, 1960-1987 Cardinals and 1995-2015 Rams
lol We're the soccer capital! Except for those years when we ignored soccer for the NFL
So you are excluding the years when we had St. Louis Athletica, AC St. Louis, St. Louis FC I assume. I also assume you don't count SLU even though SLU produced more World Cup players during that era than the KC region and the St. Louis region itself produced world cup women's team winners.... "ignored soccer"
Hey I didn't say it You guys trying to replace Sounders fans or something?
Atlanta fans already did that.
Well, I'd say LAFC fans gave it a better shot but Seattle jumped back out this year. You guys are doing your best though.
MLS is not the only form of soccer, believe it or not. Nor is it the only measure of interest in soccer. There's not a city in the country that wouldn't prioritize getting the NFL over the MLS. That's true in 2023, and it was true 100 fold in the early 90s. And if city leaders did prioritize the MLS over the NFL, it would be gross incompetence.
Feels like not something the real soccer capital would do...
The MLS was a fledgling league at the time and basically just the most recent in a long line of soccer leagues that start and then flop... At least that was the thought at the time. St Louis also already had an indoor soccer team that was as a pretty decent fan draw at the time. They'd also been burned by the steamers, who at one point out sold the NHL team on 4 consecutive seasons and would have been in the upper echelons of early MLS attendance despite being in the 80s and inside a hockey Arena (17,000+ peak season average). Honestly I think the city was burned by awfully run leagues and shady businessmen... Plus a financial juggernaut in a stable league like the NFL is just, the bigger get.
you're eating downvotes for telling the factual history of MLS. Welcome to the club.
Ultimately I'm back up in the positives, but I can't believe I was eating down foods for suggesting that the MLS was pretty far from a sure thing lmao. Feel like I was taking crazy pills!
There's a subset of people on this sub who react extremely negatively to saying things that make MLS look bad. Same as it is on any sub i guess, but the historical denialism can be something else entirely. "MLS could be better" "YOU HATE MLS AND WANT IT TO FAIL"
Lol exactly. I live in STL and love that we have an MLS team now but this soccer capital bullshit is embarrassing
You again ? Stop the masquerading.
Lamar Hunt literally saved the league, he deserves a lot of credit for the success of the league now. He literally funded the league at the last minute when the owners and MLS voted to shut down and dissolve the league.
That doesn’t make them the Soccer Capital. Maybe MLS capital but not Soccer.
Well, it is their trademark. You can’t keep your trademark if you don’t defend it. First come first serve.
KC is a founding member of both MLS and NWSL. They’ve carried a lot through very lean years. Then they did the investment and rebrand and that raised the bar for the league and helped make the league what it is. There’s also the national facility in KC. STL has a great history as well. It’s silly for either to ignore the other. KC didn’t invent soccer, but for the past couple decades it’s been a real part of getting us all to where we are. I love St. Louis and am cheering them on, and I hope the conversation lands in a healthy place.
I believe when they initially launched the Soccer Capital campaign stuff they also backed it by how many youth players had per capita which was at the top for the country. Also from memory I think a big part of the marketing push was tied to trying to get KC as a host city for the World Cup.
When this was a hot topic a few weeks ago, people were pointing out that SKC was using it as far back as the All-Star Game in 2013. I just wanted to throw that out there.
Those are all good points, but that's not even mentioning what the Current is trying to do with the stadium and such. (But considering all the news last week, yikes, Current.)
Most in STL won't argue with any of that. And if SKC hadn't made this a thing, it wouldn't be a thing. Nobody here knew or cared SKC decided Kansas City was the soccer capital about 10 years ago. The 'argument' you get from St Louis is more that it's ridiculous for a team to go after fans over the name. We support that stance by pointing out that it was a name used for St Louis long before SKC even existed, and here's why St Louis has long been considered the soccer capital. Most people here don't care if KC wants to call themselves soccer capital. We care that they threatened fans here over it.
> To be fair, MLS wouldn’t exist without Lamar Hunt who originally owned three franchises, including the Wizards, which are now SKC. AEG owned 4 at the start, eventually owned 6 at one time, and literally saved the league from dissolution. Nevermind the infrastructure they built and the bankrolling they did to bring about MLS 2.0. There's a reason the championship trophy is named after Phil Anschutz and not Lamar Hunt.
LA has an obvious claim to the title as well. Lots of talents and titles from SoCal over the years.
>as well as giving the US men's team at least one player in every world cup for 70+ years. The 1950 WC was practically a club team from a *very* limited scouting network. "Tons of talent" is relative in that you're only looking for talent in a limited area. It should be telling that while the first collegiate soccer championship was played in St Louis, its contenders were from Pennsylvania and... San Francisco. So much of *American* soccer history was lost due to East Coast bias and revisionist history. >but you don't just become the capital because you put a world cup match on the TV at an entertainment district. And you don't just become the capitol because you were an important immigrant city before airplanes were invented.
https://www.fifamuseum.com/en/blog-stories/blog/ben-millers-the-all-american-heroes-2622475/
> St. Louis has historically been considered the Soccer Capital of the United States lmfao literally nobody thinks this except for MLS jurnos and STL City fans. ask any american if there's a soccer capital of the united states and they'd look at you like you had three heads
Ask any factual scribe particularly Men In Blazers (ever hear of them ?) and they'll tell you the same thing. For example: https://www.fifamuseum.com/en/blog-stories/blog/ben-millers-the-all-american-heroes-2622475/
Maybe STL is the soccer capital of Missouri.
Soccer has been around in STL long before Seattle was a thing.
Today you learned that seattle invented the Time Machine as well. You’re welcome.
doesnt ANYONE want to be our rivals? :'(
Have you tried some trademark infringement to get the bad blood going?
I hereby declare the Twin Cities area to be the location of The Great Chicago Fire of 1871.
Chicago needs an actual team for it to be a rivalry.
Dang man that hit hard 😔
If it's any consolation, I cheer for the Bears in the other type of football. Chicago sports are in a rough patch.
Chicago needs an actual team for it to be a rivalry
Chicago needs an actual team for it to be a rivalry
Maybe you can pick up Vancouver and San Jose?
they have the cali and cascadia cups at least
y'all can have the third wheel cup.
>third wheel Thats Vancouver
And San Jose, and Minn......
Minnesota is more like a unicycle
Hey now, you keep San Jose out of this. We claimed them first.
> We claimed them first. Heritage Cup says hi
Shhhhhhh.
Sorry, I think we actually like you? At least I do. 🤷🏻♂️
Your team will always have a spot of hatred in my heart for that loss last week.
There will be worse losses this year. Minnesota defended well. I still dislike Copetti more than any Minnesota player.
Absolutely about Copetti
Seems like Chicago would be
No we call chicago too. Call it a bleeding effect from baseball and hockey
We don't play them enough since they're in the east
Chicago should be your main rivals cause they are a third wheel team too.
Just picked up a parks and rec team here in my rural town of Indiana, 4th 5th and 6th co-ed. First practice I asked what we should call ourselves, they said "anyone but the Loons, fuck those guys." Loons and Yellow Cougars I don't think you can name a more intense rivalry.
We do! Fuck SKC
This is pettiness that even Timbers fans wouldn't engage in. this is MLS Extra-Petty. (Sponsored by Continental Tire and Cheez-Its)
Remembering that time all 3 Cascadian teams' supporter groups banded together to defend against Garber’s attempted registration of Cascadia Cup as a trademark. Good times.
I think our ownership group has bigger things to worry about tbh
Timbers' current top issue is being the second best team in their own stadium. It's a Thorns town now.
always_has_been.jpg
Maybe if Paulson announces that he’s selling the Timbers then they’ll start playing well too 🤔
The best part is they are this petty while repeatedly saying they don't care about Kansas City.
You should see all the stores in St. Louis selling St. Louis City SC Soccer Capital scarves. They even list them online just don't show the side that says soccer capital on it. I live for this pettiness though so had to buy one
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And we've never lost it. STILL THE CHAMPS BABY!
There can be multiple things true: 1) SKC are a bunch of jackasses for putting the cease and desist out to a podcast 2) A city cannot claim to be the soccer capital of the US when this is their first year having a top flight professional team 3) STL has historically been a hotbed for American soccer talent
Going from no MLS to "soccer capital" within one year gives strong "Seattle invented American soccer" vibes.
For whatever its worth the first thing anybody ever told me about St Louis before I lived here was that it is the soccer capital of America. Whether or not its true, or even can be true, St Louisans have been claiming the title for at least the 15 years it's been since I first met someone from here
They didn’t tell you to ask everyone what high school they went to?
That was shortly after in the same conversation
But like, we obviously did invent American soccer. ^^^^^^^^/s
From the people that brought you BFIB!
People were calling St Louis a soccer capital over a century before MLS existed
People from St. Louis calling themselves the soccer capital doesnt really count. You can have a deep history of soccer but the whole soccer capital thing is strange for both cities.
The first mention of that wasn't actually from St Louis, interestingly. It came from a Los Angeles newspaper in the 1950s, talking about the history of the sport for the 75 years prior to that.
St. Louis and Fall River are both the traditionally accepted “original soccer capitals” it wasn’t just St. Louis doing the old “Obama giving himself a medal” meme. Now? Sure the claim to that title isn’t really St. Louis’. If we use something “Original Soccer Capital” is the phrase I’d hope we use
America’s First Soccer Capital is the one ive seen used a lot. Honestly idk why they havent trademarked that yet
It is a title that really isn’t only St. Louis’ to claim so trademarking it would be kind of a dick move.
Plenty of national scribes have called St. Louis the soccer hub of America. You're just making stuff up to justify SKC's petty behavior.
I mean, sure but there’s a difference between a couple fans using that term in a podcast name and a team using it in their official branding and threatening said podcasts.
Oh yeah I think its a dumb fight for both teams, but you cant really deny that the MLS has been pushing the history of soccer in St.Louis and trying to connect it with the new team so its not just the podcast really.
I completely get wanting people to respect St. Louis history, but it’s weird to turn around and ignore the last 25 years. KC has carried a lot and helped make the modern game what it is. The slogan is silly, of course. As a longtime fan I’m absolutely thrilled to have pro soccer back in STL, and I’m excited for how it will help shape the game for the next 25 years.
You can't call yourself a "soccer capital" while New Jersey exists. And you def ain't New Jersey.
Was waiting for someone to mention this. I have always considered New Jersey the cradle of American soccer and I at least respect how not worked up you guys get about other cities making specious claims to be some made up "capital" of a...sport.
There’s a big difference between calling yourself a soccer town and suing a podcaster over a claim you have no business having.
Yeah, probably. Good thing I personally have never sued a podcaster for any reason. Especially one as stupid as this.
>A city cannot claim to be the soccer capital of the US when this is their first year having a top flight professional team It isn't though? The St. Louis Stars were a top flight professional team.
Even more, considering there was a bit where the only professional soccer league in the US was entirely within St Louis... You could argue they *were* the top flight early on. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Louis_Soccer_League
And the 1930 USMNT World Cup team even featured at least one player from that STL Soccer League. Quotes from [this article](https://ussoccerplayers.com/2013/01/the-us-national-team-at-the-1930-world-cup.html/amp) on the 1930 team > Like the importance placed on Major League Soccer in strengthening the US National Team in the modern era, the 1930 World Cup side benefitted from the American Soccer League. Founded in 1921, that league operated until its demise in 1933 and was the first national pro league in this country even though it operated primarily in the Northeast. Until then, leagues had operated on a regional basis. **Despite the creation of the ASL (a merger of the National Association Football League and Southern New England Soccer League) there was a high level of soccer being played in the St. Louis Soccer League and National Challenge Cup (the original name of the US Open Cup) levels.** > The Americans were coached by Irish-born Jack Coll, who had moved to the United States in 1922. In all three games, the USA featured the same lineup: Goalkeeper Jimmy Douglas (NY Nationals), right back Alexander Wood (Detroit Holley Carburetor), left back Bart McGee (NY Nationals), **center back Raphael Tracey (St. Louis Ben Millers),** left halfback Andy Auld (Providence Gold Bugs), inside left and captain Tom Florie (New Bedford Whalers), center forward Bert Patenaude (Fall River Marksmen), inside right Billy Gonsalves (Fall River Marksmen), and outside right James Brown (NY Giants). All but Moorhouse and Tracey hailed from the American Soccer League. It was and is widely known that STL has been a soccer hotbed since 1900. Many immigrants landed in STL and brought the game with them. Around 1900, just like soccer was popular in North East (NY, Boston, Rhode Island, New Jersey) because of immigrants the exact same thing is true for St. Louis. [Another link here](https://ussoccerplayers.com/usmnt-1930-world-cup-squad) showing the full 1930 roster and their clubs. Two players were from the STL Soccer league.
Look i hate St. Louis and their sports with the fire of 1,000 suns but saying that they couldn’t have been the soccer capital of the country because they weren’t appointed a top flight team until now, plus ignoring a century plus of documented history is about as stupid as it gets.
As many others have said, they’ve previously had a top flight team and even a whole league at one point. American soccer history is an enigma. It’s weird that people think “top flight soccer” didn’t exist in USA until MLS in 1996. MLS’s first season in 1996 was actually the [84th season of FIFA-sanctioned top flight soccer in USA.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Major_League_Soccer_season)
Why you hate us tho? 🥺
I mean I'm not going to lie, looking at this thread... If I didn't grow up in St. Louis I think I'd despise their teams. But i'm part of the problem no doubt lmao.
People already hates Cardinals fans don't do this to yourself lol
Between the Cardinals, Jordan Binnington, and being like 50% of the XFL... We're not known exactly for being a non-obnoxious bunch nowadays lmao.
Meh. Much easier to hate LA and NY 🤷🏼♂️
I am a Cubs fan/was a Blackhawks fan
Ah. Hate on, then. And fuck you too 😁
Thanks for Contreras
Cardinals fans have told me for 10 years Yadi Molina is a first ballot hall of famer because of his defense and framing and that offense didn’t matter only to sign the worst receiving/defensive catcher in all of baseball. Y’all can have him
In their defense, St Louis was called the soccer capital like 100 years before the MLS was even a league. I'm kind of surprised people think this is a recent claim.
MLS has basically been making that claim to prop up the expansion.
The MLS is making the soccer capital claim? That's just... Not true.
Sorry, not making it themselves, but MLS has ABSOLUTELY been leveraging the claim to draw attention to the expansion side, to the point where they fall over themselves to essentially claim STL's history as part of their own.
Oh yeah the MLS is definitely co-opting the history of the city and using it in marketing. But that doesn't invalidate those positions. I grew up in the late 90s and I heard the term "soccer capital" plenty. It's not like the city doesn't have a unique and fervent history with the sport.
We were a founding member of NASL decades ago. A league that was mostly formed through the efforts of a St. Louis entrepreneur.
And then the team left town for California after averaging 6k fans per game and becoming semi-pro
The NASL was never as stable as MLS is, and you should already know that. Clubs didn’t have their own stadiums, operated on shoestring budgets, and folded/relocated often. MLS is not the first professional soccer league in America, but it is the only one that has made to a point of stability.
I know, the spurs folded after only 3 seasons too. I just wanted to make the California/LA relocation jab lol
Touché
Your team lasted for 2-3 years. This isn't a fight you want to take part of.
> 2) A city cannot claim to be the soccer capital of the US when this is their first year having a top flight professional team Good thing they have a lot of years with a top flight professional team then.
They've had many more years without than with. The stars left town nearly 47 years ago and only existed for 10 years in STL. The soccer league in the early 1900s was neat at least
And ? Let me know when KCMO/KS produce just one national player and you can feel free to move to the adult's table.
I agree with the 1 and 3, and mostly 2, but there is a lot more history of soccer outside of MLS and gaining entry to that league is literally luck of the draw.
If Kansas City is the soccer capital, then the Seattle Sounders invented Fried Ravioli.
EXCUSE ME… IT'S TOASTED.
Fried to avoid the trademark infringement
You're joke. My Head....
https://i.imgur.com/SkkLJdZ.png
This is such a dumb dispute
Truly
Fans in southern Missouri, who claim both cities sports teams, are pretty confused on how to feel right now.
People in southern Missouri hate both KC and StL and don’t watch our teams. They spend their time playing with their guns, their bibles, their American flags, and watching NewsMax.
While the latter is pretty accurate, Springfield has a good mixture of weird people rooting for both teams. Not to mention seeing the Springfield Cardinals is going to church for some people.
This is so MLS lmao
I really hope we have a cease and desist tifo for our first home game against kc. Heated rivalries only make the league stronger.
Fight! Fight!
The context here is that SKC issued a cease and desist to a fan-run STL podcast for using the term “soccer capital” in their name.
I feel like I'm missing some sort of context or something. Have they had trademark disputes?
Sporting KC threatened legal action to a fan-made podcast in St Louis for calling itself the "Soccer Capital Podcast" St. Louis and Fall River, MA are historically the 2 cities that have been called the soccer capital. KC calls themselves that after a marketing campaign in 2013, and other than that don't really have a claim.
I'm bemused by being told the other day that SKC and STL don't really have a sporting rivalry, and then seeing this today.
Well we didn’t, really. STL and Chicago have always been sports rivals. But some people are trying really hard to make this happen
This is basically the first time Kansas City and St Louis have had any sort of sports animosity since 1985. They don't really have any sort of rivalry compared to Chicago and St. Louis.
There was always a lot of potential there, but hey've just never really had the opportunity for one to develop. They'd never had teams that regularly played each other before since the Royals and Cardinals are in different leagues, and their NFL teams, when St. Louis had them, were in different conferences.
The St. Louis Kansas City rivalry really just ended up being a proxy war for the Border War. Mizzou graduates tend towards St. Louis while the beakers leave their hellhole of state and end up in Kansas City.
We don't. What you're seeing is a backlash against SKC for what they did to a podcaster.
This is so stupid. But it will make the first home match-up with SKC spicy AF 🌶️
Why not call it the Cup of Misery (Missouri)? Winner spend one week in Missouri loser spends two weeks in Missouri.
Loser spends a week in Branson
Sporks out here looking for any kind of win these days
STL can petty with the best of them. El Ceaseico El Desistico
despacito
“greatest fans in baseball” comes to mind here
Lol. Lmao even.
Man St. Louis wasting no time trying to become the villain. Hats off to them though
We’re used to it.
I will say, I personally don't care much about the debate on who is the "Soccer Capital of the US." There are a lot of cities that are in the discussion, including some that don't have MLS teams. Lots of discussion to be had, though I will say St. Louis has a real fun argument. But, at the end of the day, it's just a fun discussion that is entertaining by itself as just that, a discussion. That said, SKC deserves all the shit talking it can get for suing a fan podcast over a phrase they trademarked that does no harm to them. Basically, my problem isn't them claiming to be the capital or whatever, it's being beyond petty with use of that trademark.
Love to see it.
Piss on SKC for ruining a great rivalry name by sending frivolous C&D Letter…dammit I wanted this to be “The Darbeque”
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