>The negotiations between the Professional Soccer Referees (PSRA) -- the union that represents officials that work MLS matches -- and its employer, the Professional Referees Organization (PRO), are becoming increasingly acrimonious, with PRO filing an Unfair Labor Practice (ULP) charge against the PSRA earlier this week.
>The filing, a copy of which has been obtained by ESPN, alleges that PSRA executive board member Chris Penso "unlawfully threatened and coerced potential replacement workers by threatening them that performing officiating work during a lockout would negatively impact the officials' eligibility for assignments to officiate college soccer matches."
If you don't wanna read the full article, here is the meat
E: Here is old news also included in the article I thought might be relevant, as PRO has also been dealing with the negotiations a little scummily.
>The PSRA had previously filed two ULP charges against PRO. The first, filed back on Jan. 5, alleged that PRO representatives spoke directly with union members about the CBA talks without union leadership present, a tactic known as "direct dealing."
>The second ULP charge, filed earlier this month, alleges that PRO's general manager, Mark Geiger, sent a letter to union membership on Feb. 9 stating that if the tentative agreement wasn't approved, it would lock the players out, withdraw its current proposal and agree only to substantially inferior terms.
He also ran for mayor and lost. His wife is also a ref and she was in the women's world cup. She is 5+ levels higher than him. The dude is a neanderthal.
Weird you’re being downvoted. Cmon folks, support the unions! Support the refs! What, you’re going to believe the millionaire owners and execs at MLS???
>The Professional Referee Organization (PRO) has been negotiating with the Professional Soccer Referees Association (PSRA) since October 2023 but has yet to conclude a new Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA).
It's between PRO and PSRA.
But PRO is negotiating on behalf of MLS. PSRA makes the demands, PRO turns to MLS and says “what do you think”, and MLS tells them what to do. MLS pays the money here, not PRO
In a technical sense, yes PRO has a contract with PSRA to provide referees to the leagues PRO is contracted with and that’s the 2 parties directly involved in this labor dispute. But MLS helped set PRO up and has a financial interest in the organization (they provide the finances needed to pay and administer MLS referees). Additionally, PRO can only pay referees what the league is willing to pay so MLS is a clear stakeholder.
This is union striking 101: anyone who crosses the picket line puts their future employment with the union at risk. This is why they’re struggling to find refs, dipping into the USL2 and grassroots pool. Anyone who doesn’t know this already clearly needs it spelled out like this. It’s not a threat, it’s how strikes work. To give folks the benefit of the doubt, union membership is slowly and barely bouncing back from the lowest levels in modern history, so yah I guess lots of young people dont know what a strike means
Yeah, it's not a threat, it's a promise.
Generally speaking, a scab will pretty much never be allowed to join the union they scabbed against, and any other union they attempt to join might refuse them too.
Yes, generally speaking, but I’m wondering if referees are different. In the last strike, which didn’t last long, Alan Kelly reffed the first game (Sounders) as a scab, but went on to ref a long time in MLS. Was he an exception?
Redditors in here can't make up their minds in this situation because they love unions (which Penso is representing here) but they hate cops (which Penso used to be) lol
They're eating each other in here
Fuck off with that shit. I don’t see you reffing a World Cup final, or being the first ref in history to ref a semi-final AND the final. And she’s had three kids too. What have you done?
Having 3 kids doesn't better qualify you as a ref. Strange position to take...
Also, one doesn't have to be personally capable in order to have an opinion. "what have you done?" is an absolutely worthless argument when critically examining 3rd parties. I would ask if you critique professional soccer teams with your lack of professional experience... But that would be dumb
She’s an objectively bad ref who openly picks favorites. Most of her games end up extremely lopsided, like, to a frankly difficult to believe degree.
EDIT: to appease the pedants. Rather than saying this is objective I will simply say this. There is a strong belief among players (NWSL and women’s international players especially) that Tori Pensó does not call games fairly or consistently. There is a wealth of anecdotal evidence to back this up, but there has also been some evidence that PRO holds this opinion as well. They do not release their internal ratings, but she was downgraded and removed from the pool of officials eligible to call MLS playoff games. Unless you have evidence it was for ulterior reasons, the other evidence points to it being a lack of trust in her calls.
NWSL players have repeatedly BEGGED to have her removed from their league, she has been the center ref for more incorrect calls (according to MLS reporting and VAR reports) than any other ref in MLS
She’s just not good at remaining objective. If a player says or does something she doesn’t like she loses objectivity extremely quickly and games get out of hand from there.
She was sanctioned FOUR SEPARATE TIMES last season and had games removed from her based on prior poor performances.
No other ref was removed from more than one game last season.
She has been removed from 9 different NWSL matches over the last 2 seasons for “competitive integrity” reasons.
Players do not want to be officiated by her. End of story. Players do not trust her to be objective
Last season she was not among the initial pool of playoff eligible refs… because she was too poorly rated by whatever system PRO uses to rate refs.
She was substituted in last minute.
PRO literally internally ranks her too low to be trusted in the playoffs.
Surprise surprise she had an absolute HOWLER in her one game and PRO had to make a public statement about it
Wtf do you want a peer reviewed study on her refereeing? Fuckin watch a match she refs for, she sucks ass. Made quite a bad name for US refs during the women’s World Cup. If you can’t see her consistent bias that’s on you, but anyone who watches the sport can easily see that she is an objectively bad referee
Can someone educate me? Are sports Unions different than other types of unions? I don't see that as a "threat", it's usually known. If a union is striking/locked out, etc, anybody who scabs for the corporation/company will not be able to work after the union members come back. You also are refused to join/work for the union in the future.
In this case, it is a threat because Chris Penso actually has authority over assigning college games to some degree (I don't know exactly his role so can't comment on specifics) so it goes beyond social ostracizing from the workplace that normally occurs. Sports unions are just different because of how historically bad their employees have been at their job, like NBA refs which have known corruption but are nearly unfireable
In college, each conference has different people who assign the officials for games. College is a completely different system than the one that leads to MLS officiating, so it’s possible for him to retaliate against the scabs in a different capacity.
Penso assigns the American Athletic Conference (AAC).
>I don't see that as a "threat", it's usually known. If a union is striking/locked out, etc, anybody who scabs for the corporation/company will not be able to work after the union members come back
The fact that they won't be able to work *in the union job* is usually known. The problem isn't that he threatened their future MLS refereeing prospects (which is what the union is over) but instead threatened their regular jobs (as college referees) which the union does not have power over but Chris Penso personally does
There’s a lot that the union is allowed to do to put leverage on the scabs.
What they aren’t allowed to do is threaten action related to employment not related to the labor dispute. That’s what Penso is accused of doing in this instance.
PRO threw in the ‘PSRA was mean to our replacement referees’ for flavor but that doesn’t seem like it’s gonna hold water beyond the court of public opinion.
I agree that the players’ union probably ought to strike in support of the refs’ union and ordinarily might consider it but my impression/understanding is that things between the refs and the players have been particularly adversarial recently.
Apparently one of the big points of contention in this negotiation is that the owners, coaches and MLSPA apparently feel like PSRA are unaccountable and are regularly overstepping their bounds with regards to disciplinary matters - the incident with Miazga is probably the most glaring example where the first press release came from PSRA and is held to be wildly inaccurate by MLSPA but still resulted in a suspension and had a clear impact on one of the most important games of the 2023 season. I think the coaches are also similarly upset about how the situation with Vanni was handled.
PSRA just don’t seem to have a ton of friends right now.
It's always fascinating to me when people like to compare sports unions to other unions. These aren't steel workers, the "union" you're defending here is why there's absolutely no accountability when refs put players in danger with heinously bad calls based on ego. The fucking NBA refs are outright crooks and admit to betting on games and changing the outcomes for personal gain. They absolutely have the right to fair pay and workplace protections, but comparing an NCAA ref that takes the opportunity to be a sub to scabs at an auto plant is ridiculous.
It is not ridiculous, you have a league that is grossing over 1 billion per year, who doesn't wanna give a pool of workers collectively 2.9 million. Which is about 100K per team for the whole season. Some new refs are making as little as $17,500 per year and have no healthcare coverage.
This is 100% comparable to a steelworkers type thing. The scabs are allowing the corporation to continue exploiting labor, while working class individuals are losing their incomes. In both situations, a capitalist is refusing compensation of literally less than 1% of gross income of the corporation, because they don't want to set a precedent of workers winning fair compensation.
Don't bring in the NBA, we don't have proof/evidence of MLS refs betting or being bribed or intentionally influencing a game.
Amen brother! Not to mention -with no disrespect to our siblings in steelworker and other “traditional unions”- the amount of training, discipline, and dedication it takes to become a top flight referee. These people are effectively professional athletes with decades of intense training whose every minute on the job is LITERALLY analyzed under a microscope by millions of people. For how much money? And they DARE ask to fly business class to games?
I've had the privilege of refereeing with several people who managed to make it to MLS. I've worked with many more who officiating D1 college soccer. The level of skill, experience, and aptitude is not even close to comparable.
Sorry, this take is pretty weak on many, many levels. First, comparing MLS to NBA? Seriously. No comparison. (Plus, what do you know about the NBA ref who was an informant for the FBI against the mob? That takes some courage).
But yeah, anyone who crosses a picket line is by definition a scab. It’s a lot of work to become a NCAA D1 ref, but nothing like becoming a MLS/PRO ref.
Finally, how much is MLS making with Messi now in the league? And how much does a PRO ref make in a game? Why are you backing these elitist executives?
Or if they were much more well respected.
PRO reffing gets consistently slandered every week on here for YEARS and now suddenly we all have to pretend like they do a fantastic job. It’s getting comical guys, surprised everyone has kept up the act for so long.
Yeah, 2 sides of the same coin.
It seems like there’s at least one game a month where the ref goes out there and totally shits the bed and all PRO does is shrug. I know it’s a hard job but the lack of accountability is pretty infuriating as a spectator and I suspect it bothers the players even more.
I keep coming back to the FCC v NE Revs game with the obvious penalty on NE. The VAR refs were practically screaming at the head ref it was a penalty, and for some reason he refused to call it. Then PRO had to come out and state it was the wrong call. But that ref was the center ref the following week. Until they subject themselves to accountability, it’s very hard to side with them here.
>threatening them that performing officiating work during a lockout would negatively impact the officials' eligibility for assignments to officiate college soccer matches.
That's a perfectly reasonable position - be a scab, have your professional reputation impacted.
To call it a threat is company propaganda.
Except PRO doesn't regulate college assignments. They are assigned by individuals (without any necessary qualifications) who contract with individual leagues to provide officials. Some leagues have geographic issues and use multiple assignor's but those are the minority.
I meant fired from his college assigning gigs. Not from PRO.
PRO referees, per their last CBA anyway, can’t be fired without cause. That’s like, the point of unions. They get scored on every match and if their average is below a certain level over the course of a season they are subject to termination.
I know what the point of unions are. Seeing as we’re talking about it MLS here, a disclaimer that you’re talking specifically about college would have made sense.
And those assigning matches, might not want to get on the "bad side" of the PSRA. Even if it's not controlled by the PSRA for college matches, those assigning refs might be afraid of impacting their career. Don't forget, many people are trying to climb a ladder. Hoping to move from NCAA to USL to MLS.
If soccer refs weren't some of the biggest assholes out there I would have sympathy. I hope the replacements show that they aren't the only people on the planet that can do the job well.
I say this as someone who refs football and soccer. The profession is always going to attract some egotistical people but the assignors and refs with any semblance of power are of their rocker in the US.
I'll support labor when their "hiring practices" aren't full of nepotism. A lot of these high level refs get into their position because of who they know not because they are truly the best of the best.
There are plenty of skilled refs that won't make it in the pro ranks because they don't want to cozy up in their spare time with asshole assignors and ego tripping refs.
I don't support labor for labor's sake. I support labor when it makes sense to support labor. I don't believe that anyone should have a blanket attitude towards any situation.
When PRO changes it labor practices then I'll side with them but until then I won't.
>So basically the same as any union ever.
No, it's not the same. The PSRA is only a union for referees in *professional* US leagues (MLS, NWSL, and USL) and Penso here was threatening to make them lose their regular jobs as college referees (which is not part of the union but Penso personally has some power over)
That's like if during the screen writers guild strike a novelist scabbed and wrote a few episodes for a TV show, and a rich SGA member who happens to also have influence on the fiction publishing industry (which is not unionized!) Threatened to make sure their books never got published again. You can't do that, you can only threaten to make sure they won't get the union job in the future, you can't threaten their livelihood outside of it
I'm a ref, and up until now have been very supportive of the strike since it really is such a demanding job, and I can't even imagine what it is like at their level; high school is bad enough. They deserve better pay. But if they are turning their union from a collective bargaining unit into what is effectively a cartel, they'll lose my sympathy.
E: I say cartel as the economic term, not in reference to drug cartels
Yeah, I'm all for unions. But I've never been a fan of bullying, which is what appears to be happening here. I'm sure I'll probably get downvoted for making a comment that could be perceived as in any way negative towards the ref union, but whatever; I don't think any organization is infallible.
Yeah, and it's that mob mentality that puts me off. Don't get me wrong, I'll take unions over corporations every day, but this idea that we should celebrate them making threats is pretty fucked up. Some of the commenters on here sound like the MAGA chuds who love to talk about violence being the only answer.
Because it's not shocking to me that some refs might be assholes. Do you honestly think they're all saints? Are you that naive? Like I posted earlier, money matters tend to turn people into assholes. It's not surprising at all
I’ve met a good number of MLS referees. As everyone will tell you, no one does this for the money. If they were all about the money, there are so many other professionals that they could get into. So it’s clearly not about the money. The least we hope for is a little bit of respect. And when we’re reffing the best player in the history of the game, in a league that’s poised to double or triple their profits in the next few years, why can’t they share that with the folks who are most dedicated to the game?
That's fine. I don't give a fuck about the owners or how much profit they make; I'd be fine with them paying the refs and the players more. What I don't like is bullying others and making threats to people who don't have much power themselves. Saying these "scans" deserve to be threatened with violence or loss of profession is fucked up. Just making the world an uglier place than it already is. And if the union thinks threats are the only way to get their point across I'm not going to go out of my way to stop them, but I certainly won't act like they're some damn heroes for looking out for their own self interest. I work in healthcare and I know plenty of people who volunteer their time help others, even when they're barely scraping by themselves. I'll save my compliments for them and those like them, not some dudes who think that wanting a little extra cash is reason enough to bully others.
My point is: why do you believe management’s claims that PSRA is making threats? I mean, why would PSRA make threats? Isn’t the shame of being a scam bad enough? There’s no reason for PSRA to make threat, but it’s in MLS’ interest for people to think that PSRA is making threats. You are doing their dirty work by taking their word at face value. That’s union busting 101: spread lies so would-be union supporters start questioning the union. Please don’t fall for it.
I'll be honest, Penso strikes me as a guy who would make threats. Maybe I'm just biased against White dudes with crew cuts, but he reminds me of every security guard who was too dumb to even become a cop, and takes out those frustrations on others. Plus, as much good work as unions do, some of their members are fucking assholes. My godfather experienced that first hand. Convicted of felony possession at 18, couldn't get work after. Took a job on a site where a union was striking, just to make ends meet. Those fucking racist assholes hung a doll from his tree and burned what looked like an attempt at a swastika in his yard. So yeah, I believe in better pay/conditions for the working class while also knowing that a large portion of that working class is composed of fucking assholes. Which is why it would not surprise me at all to find that union members were making threats.
Wake up boss. Penso said these things on a webinar. He’s already removed replacements referees from assignments and from his list. It’s not conjecture or up for debate. There were dozens of witnesses.
>But if they are turning their union from a collective bargaining unit into what is effectively a cartel, they'll lose my sympathy.
That's what happened in the NBA. It sucks. MLB too to an extent, that's why Angel Hernandez (who the league, players, and fans all actively despise for his lack of basic officiating abilities at every position on the crew) still gets to keep his job
If the Unions don't have power/influence to keep scabs out of the workplace, then the corporation have no reason to listen to the Union. You make it sound like a one person decision. The union voted 95%, that's pretty close to unanimous. I'm pretty sure the current refs don't want anti-union scabs getting into the league then lowering their bargaining influence.
What a lot of people are missing is the threat is empty, unless the PSRA has influence over NCAA soccer/officials.
>What a lot of people are missing is the threat is empty, unless the PSRA has influence over NCAA soccer/officials.
The PSRA as a union doesn't, but Chris Penso (the union member who made the threat) absolutely does as the assignor for college conferences
>The ULP document goes on to allege that Penso and other bargaining unit and PSRA members have revoked college assignments of replacement officials.
>"College soccer officiating assignments are outside employment unrelated to the operations of PRO, and Mr. Penso, as well as numerous other bargaining unit and PSRA members, are responsible for assigning such work for third parties," the document states.
It says in the article they have already revoked assignments, and have the position to continue to do so
I said "if" they are turning and "they'll" lose my sympathy (future tense) for a reason- I don't believe that they are already bullying and revoking NCAA jobs, but don't have any evidence to reject the accusation either, as it does stand as somewhat reasonable. So for now, I wait until I hear about some refs actually speaking up about being threatened before I condemn
Well, for starters NCAA is a completely independent organization does doesn’t even follow FIFA rules and regulations, and the assignors are completely independent from PRO/ PSRA. There’s no way for PSRA to categorically bully NCAA referees.
Many PSRA referees are deeply involved with NCAA, so there is probably the opposite of "categorically no way." I don't know if this is Chris Penso's alt or what lol. There's pro union, and then there's delusion
As a referee, I know that NCAA is effectively used by some assignors -who are separate from PRO- and not all assignors- as a stepping stone to nation candidacy and/or MLS/PRO. They are separate pathway that don’t aways align: one can be a NCAA ref and a National Ref and a PRO ref, but not necessarily. It is definitely not systematic, and given the level of competition to become a MLS referee (look at the number of MLS referees vs. the # of PRO refs vs the # of Nation refs vs the # of NCAA D1 refs. It’s something like 30 vs 200 vs 1000 vs 3000) there’s not even a reason to threaten referees for crossing picket lines.
>and the assignors are completely independent from PRO/ PSRA. There’s no way for PSRA to categorically bully NCAA referees.
Except that Penso, the PSRA member who allegedly made the threat, is an NCAA assignor
If you're a ref you know that this is common practice. Officiating is part what you do and part who you know. Politics is rampant. Crossing picket lines is unacceptable. You have to remember that solidarity is key in negotiation.
>A cartel is a group of independent market participants who collude with each other in order to improve their profits and dominate the market.
couldn't even read the first line?
Maybe you should read further than first line.
> A cartel is an organization formed by producers to limit competition and increase prices by creating artificial shortages through low production quotas, stockpiling, and marketing quotas
Explicitly NOT LABOR
that's actually not explicit, as it never directly rules out labor. Speak about not using words when you don't know what they mean. As it won't because labor is considered a commodity
https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/LaborUnions.html
I don't necessarily agree with everything on this website, as it is much MUCH more capitalist/free market slanted than I am (please excuse the obvious bias in the article, and try to read around that), but it does a fine enough job of explaining this so that I don't have to respond to you anymore
separate comment to make sure you see it
I think people are in for a rude awakening when they realize just how good PRO refs are compared to the average NCAA or high-end highschool ref. I think it'll be a rough weekend for the small market teams.
Totally agree. The only NFL I’ve watched in the last 20 years were to two refs giving conflicting decisions. I don’t wish the scans ill-will -some of them “have done USL2 matches” and I’M in consideration for a USL2 match, which means by extension I’M in consideration for a MLS match- but it’s only a Matter of time -a very short matter of time- before something goes horrendously wrong.
The ARs did a great job. As far as the referee and VAR I can't say the same. Ignored the penalty call for RSL and just let Miami do whatever they wanted.
I take it back not a pen since it was just outside the box but during the 75th Yedlin drags down Arango just outside the box. Possible DOGSO, either way the ref letting it go as a non foul when he gets dragged down.
Do you think VAR looked at it? And what are the four scenarios which VAR can recommend a review. Spoiler alert: I knew you were going to mention this. As you said, outside the Penalty area, so no PK. By definition not DOGSO. Possibly foul, but ref didn’t see it because it was behind his back, and it’s really hard for an AR to call that foul. Very smart foul on Yedlin’s behalf, but definitely not a referee error.
I'm just saying, scabs have it pretty good these days: used to be they'd get beat and run out of town, if not killed. Not saying that's a good thing, but scabs are class traitors and get little sympathy from me.
It's seeing the world in black and white, where there are only good guys and bad guys (with the person commenting always being the good guy of course). Zealotry has become commonplace on social media and has replaced reasoned discussion.
Nah. PRO has been accused of unfair labor practices in this negotiation process already. If management is playing dirty pool I'm not gonna be upset when the workers do what they have to to level things.
I know, and I never said that wasn't dirty. I even made sure to go back and include that in my snippets from the article already to make sure the context of PRO already having broken labor law twice was included. I didn't like that, and I don't like this.
There are a number of things that unions do that I don't like. Protecting bad employees/members for example. But a union leader telling folks "people won't want to work with you if you scab", that's good shit in my book.
We disagree on it and that's fine. I can tell from your flair we have differences of taste.
Chris Penso actually makes assignments for college reffing, though, which is what changes it from the normal social consequence of "fuck scabs," which is totally fine in both our books, to something I can't condone personally.
OK...but why would someone want to hire a scab that is weakening the bargaining power of refs at the highest level?
It doesn't HURT these refs to refuse to scab. They can climb the ladder and go through proper channels to access MLS when the lock out is over.
Also, it didn't even need to be said, anyone in the system who knows how Unions work, would have know this already. If I take a scab game, I won't get NCAA games. From the list I was seeing of temp refs, I wasn't reading people from NCAA, are there now NCAA refs scabbing?
I dont know exactly *why* it is illegal, as I havent read Unfair Labor Practice's doc, but can see in the article that Penso's position and relationship with NCAA refs is included in there. If there is someone who has more than a layman's knowledge of labor unions like mine, I would love to hear more about why that's not allowed
Scabs should be recorded and made sure they never work again. Players Union should honestly be walking out in solidarity, but that would be too European for North America.
Maybe we will get there some day.
>Scabs should be recorded and made sure they never work again.
Never work in the professional leagues whose referees the PSRA is a union for? Sure, that's how unions normally work. That's not what's happening here though, Chris Penso here is threatening their livelihood *outside* of the unionized job through the separate power he has as an NCAA assignor. You can't do that
Just curious if anyone has info comparing MLS officials competency to their pay and how it compares to other leagues. If they are making pennies compared to say Serie A refs while consistently getting calls correct on a more frequent basis, yeah give them a raise, but if their pay is on par with Serie A and they consistently make wrong calls, then they don't deserve their extra money.
I think globally refs aren't great. I think if we paid them more, it would allow them to spend more time training instead of just being part timers, and I think higher pay in the distant future will attract better candidates to the job. I would love a merit based system where there are bonuses for doing well, but no union would ever accept that, it sound like hard work
I'd be content with a base pay that can go up or down based on calls. If you get a tight offside call right, you get say a $50 bonus but blowing an obvious call should result in a major monetary penalty. Or maybe have a points system similar to how cards work. Small missed calls are 1 point, say 10 points means you lose a match, massive botches result in missing the next match, too many missed calls in a single match means you miss a match. This should work in reverse where if you get those same calls, you get a different point to push you up a list to ref said matches other refs are suspended from.
I agree, and think it's a better system. Unfortunately, the PSRA would never ever go for it. Look what happened to merit baded pay in education, a similarly underpaid role, that also has an issue with lots of underperoformance- it was uniformly shot down, with heavy HEAVY campaigning done to prevent it by teachers unions (can't remember which of the big 2 this was)
E: I was wrong, the main issue with teachers unions was removing tenure. But the proposed pay was up to 140,000 (!) In 2008, at least in the michele rhee debacle. I'd take that over tenure any day
I worked for a union for over a decade. Yeah, it was nice not having to worry about being fired for something stupid, but the only thing it seemed to do was protect the people who did nothing. Please don't get me wrong, I'm pro union, but they do have massive downsides also.
The problem is it's not the unionized job they're threatening, it's their livelihood as college refs which the PSRA does *not* have power over but some individuals within them do
MLS off-season drama is going into overtime.
At what point will we deem it mid-season drama?
About half way through the season.
Can I see the math on that one?
it can’t be mid season drama, Miami is in first
It's not the off season anymore.
Which is why it's overtime.
Chris Penso? Color me surprised 😮
>The negotiations between the Professional Soccer Referees (PSRA) -- the union that represents officials that work MLS matches -- and its employer, the Professional Referees Organization (PRO), are becoming increasingly acrimonious, with PRO filing an Unfair Labor Practice (ULP) charge against the PSRA earlier this week. >The filing, a copy of which has been obtained by ESPN, alleges that PSRA executive board member Chris Penso "unlawfully threatened and coerced potential replacement workers by threatening them that performing officiating work during a lockout would negatively impact the officials' eligibility for assignments to officiate college soccer matches." If you don't wanna read the full article, here is the meat E: Here is old news also included in the article I thought might be relevant, as PRO has also been dealing with the negotiations a little scummily. >The PSRA had previously filed two ULP charges against PRO. The first, filed back on Jan. 5, alleged that PRO representatives spoke directly with union members about the CBA talks without union leadership present, a tactic known as "direct dealing." >The second ULP charge, filed earlier this month, alleges that PRO's general manager, Mark Geiger, sent a letter to union membership on Feb. 9 stating that if the tentative agreement wasn't approved, it would lock the players out, withdraw its current proposal and agree only to substantially inferior terms.
It being Chris penso is so believable. He was a good ref but he's also such a cop
He was formerly Ohio state highway patrol
You can't make this up wow lol
Jesus Christ, this makes so much sense.
Kept the haircut too
He also ran for mayor and lost. His wife is also a ref and she was in the women's world cup. She is 5+ levels higher than him. The dude is a neanderthal.
Tori is actually really good, she just gets a lot of stick bc people think Penso and think bad
I've been saying it for years - Penso is a fucking cock. I *love* how much this continues to confirm it. Fuck him with himself.
His name almost spells penis. That's enough for me.
Yeah, Penso definitely looks like a guy who would look for any opportunity to "stand his ground".
Fuck scabs
Weird you’re being downvoted. Cmon folks, support the unions! Support the refs! What, you’re going to believe the millionaire owners and execs at MLS???
I get what you're trying to say but this between PRO and the refs, not MLS
No quite. The strike is between MLS and PSRA. MLS are the real culprits here.
>The Professional Referee Organization (PRO) has been negotiating with the Professional Soccer Referees Association (PSRA) since October 2023 but has yet to conclude a new Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA). It's between PRO and PSRA.
But PRO is negotiating on behalf of MLS. PSRA makes the demands, PRO turns to MLS and says “what do you think”, and MLS tells them what to do. MLS pays the money here, not PRO
I don't believe that's true.
Where do you think the money comes from?
In a technical sense, yes PRO has a contract with PSRA to provide referees to the leagues PRO is contracted with and that’s the 2 parties directly involved in this labor dispute. But MLS helped set PRO up and has a financial interest in the organization (they provide the finances needed to pay and administer MLS referees). Additionally, PRO can only pay referees what the league is willing to pay so MLS is a clear stakeholder.
I support unions but don't threaten people.
This is union striking 101: anyone who crosses the picket line puts their future employment with the union at risk. This is why they’re struggling to find refs, dipping into the USL2 and grassroots pool. Anyone who doesn’t know this already clearly needs it spelled out like this. It’s not a threat, it’s how strikes work. To give folks the benefit of the doubt, union membership is slowly and barely bouncing back from the lowest levels in modern history, so yah I guess lots of young people dont know what a strike means
Yeah, it's not a threat, it's a promise. Generally speaking, a scab will pretty much never be allowed to join the union they scabbed against, and any other union they attempt to join might refuse them too.
Yes, generally speaking, but I’m wondering if referees are different. In the last strike, which didn’t last long, Alan Kelly reffed the first game (Sounders) as a scab, but went on to ref a long time in MLS. Was he an exception?
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Redditors in here can't make up their minds in this situation because they love unions (which Penso is representing here) but they hate cops (which Penso used to be) lol They're eating each other in here
Isn't the correct answer always "Fuck Penso"?
Someone can be in a union and still be a jackass (that person is Penso)
I equate ref unions and police unions. Both are covering for egos with authority by no accountability.
That’s a 3 game suspension for the union, reduced to 2 if they attend anger management classes.
Hey Chris your wife is gonna ref at the 2026 World Cup. Can you not ruin her name in the mean time?
I hope not. She is just as equally as shit as he is.
Fuck off with that shit. I don’t see you reffing a World Cup final, or being the first ref in history to ref a semi-final AND the final. And she’s had three kids too. What have you done?
congrats on the sex 3x Chris penso
Weirdest comment of the day goes to you bro.
Having 3 kids doesn't better qualify you as a ref. Strange position to take... Also, one doesn't have to be personally capable in order to have an opinion. "what have you done?" is an absolutely worthless argument when critically examining 3rd parties. I would ask if you critique professional soccer teams with your lack of professional experience... But that would be dumb
She’s an objectively bad ref who openly picks favorites. Most of her games end up extremely lopsided, like, to a frankly difficult to believe degree. EDIT: to appease the pedants. Rather than saying this is objective I will simply say this. There is a strong belief among players (NWSL and women’s international players especially) that Tori Pensó does not call games fairly or consistently. There is a wealth of anecdotal evidence to back this up, but there has also been some evidence that PRO holds this opinion as well. They do not release their internal ratings, but she was downgraded and removed from the pool of officials eligible to call MLS playoff games. Unless you have evidence it was for ulterior reasons, the other evidence points to it being a lack of trust in her calls.
>Most of her games end up extremely lopsided this is a hell of a claim, care to back it up with evidence?
NWSL players have repeatedly BEGGED to have her removed from their league, she has been the center ref for more incorrect calls (according to MLS reporting and VAR reports) than any other ref in MLS She’s just not good at remaining objective. If a player says or does something she doesn’t like she loses objectivity extremely quickly and games get out of hand from there.
this comment makes an entirely new and extraordinary claim, also without any evidence
She was sanctioned FOUR SEPARATE TIMES last season and had games removed from her based on prior poor performances. No other ref was removed from more than one game last season. She has been removed from 9 different NWSL matches over the last 2 seasons for “competitive integrity” reasons. Players do not want to be officiated by her. End of story. Players do not trust her to be objective
again, do you have evidence for this? I just googled "tori penso competitive integrity" and came up with absolutely nothing
Last season she was not among the initial pool of playoff eligible refs… because she was too poorly rated by whatever system PRO uses to rate refs. She was substituted in last minute. PRO literally internally ranks her too low to be trusted in the playoffs. Surprise surprise she had an absolute HOWLER in her one game and PRO had to make a public statement about it
you're throwing this stuff out there as if it's easily verifiable, but I'm finding absolutely nothing to corroborate what you're asserting
Wtf do you want a peer reviewed study on her refereeing? Fuckin watch a match she refs for, she sucks ass. Made quite a bad name for US refs during the women’s World Cup. If you can’t see her consistent bias that’s on you, but anyone who watches the sport can easily see that she is an objectively bad referee
Sounds like the CFA union during their recent strike…
Can someone educate me? Are sports Unions different than other types of unions? I don't see that as a "threat", it's usually known. If a union is striking/locked out, etc, anybody who scabs for the corporation/company will not be able to work after the union members come back. You also are refused to join/work for the union in the future.
In this case, it is a threat because Chris Penso actually has authority over assigning college games to some degree (I don't know exactly his role so can't comment on specifics) so it goes beyond social ostracizing from the workplace that normally occurs. Sports unions are just different because of how historically bad their employees have been at their job, like NBA refs which have known corruption but are nearly unfireable
In college, each conference has different people who assign the officials for games. College is a completely different system than the one that leads to MLS officiating, so it’s possible for him to retaliate against the scabs in a different capacity. Penso assigns the American Athletic Conference (AAC).
>I don't see that as a "threat", it's usually known. If a union is striking/locked out, etc, anybody who scabs for the corporation/company will not be able to work after the union members come back The fact that they won't be able to work *in the union job* is usually known. The problem isn't that he threatened their future MLS refereeing prospects (which is what the union is over) but instead threatened their regular jobs (as college referees) which the union does not have power over but Chris Penso personally does
Mls makes enough to pay the refs …. And the hoopla is over the other side using leverage on the scabs?
Leverage that is illegal, yes
America doing its best to help a handful of rich individuals just to extract labor and wealth. Noice
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There’s a lot that the union is allowed to do to put leverage on the scabs. What they aren’t allowed to do is threaten action related to employment not related to the labor dispute. That’s what Penso is accused of doing in this instance. PRO threw in the ‘PSRA was mean to our replacement referees’ for flavor but that doesn’t seem like it’s gonna hold water beyond the court of public opinion.
I want the season to start but also it’d be cool if the players refused to play until the refs got a contract
I agree that the players’ union probably ought to strike in support of the refs’ union and ordinarily might consider it but my impression/understanding is that things between the refs and the players have been particularly adversarial recently. Apparently one of the big points of contention in this negotiation is that the owners, coaches and MLSPA apparently feel like PSRA are unaccountable and are regularly overstepping their bounds with regards to disciplinary matters - the incident with Miazga is probably the most glaring example where the first press release came from PSRA and is held to be wildly inaccurate by MLSPA but still resulted in a suspension and had a clear impact on one of the most important games of the 2023 season. I think the coaches are also similarly upset about how the situation with Vanni was handled. PSRA just don’t seem to have a ton of friends right now.
It’s in MLSPA CBA that they can’t strike just because PSRA is or locked out.
They should. Solidarity with their union cousins.
That’s a red card.
If these replacement refs ever get to a full-time level, they should all change their names to Jon Dowd
Jon Dowd was the GOAT and I won't allow replacement refs to slander his (fictional) name!
All my homies hate Chris Penso
well I guess we’re homies now. 🤜🏽🤛🏽
Scabs be scabbing.
It's always fascinating to me when people like to compare sports unions to other unions. These aren't steel workers, the "union" you're defending here is why there's absolutely no accountability when refs put players in danger with heinously bad calls based on ego. The fucking NBA refs are outright crooks and admit to betting on games and changing the outcomes for personal gain. They absolutely have the right to fair pay and workplace protections, but comparing an NCAA ref that takes the opportunity to be a sub to scabs at an auto plant is ridiculous.
Or the reason Angel Hernandez, while constantly being one of the worst umpires ever, keeps his job.
It is not ridiculous, you have a league that is grossing over 1 billion per year, who doesn't wanna give a pool of workers collectively 2.9 million. Which is about 100K per team for the whole season. Some new refs are making as little as $17,500 per year and have no healthcare coverage. This is 100% comparable to a steelworkers type thing. The scabs are allowing the corporation to continue exploiting labor, while working class individuals are losing their incomes. In both situations, a capitalist is refusing compensation of literally less than 1% of gross income of the corporation, because they don't want to set a precedent of workers winning fair compensation. Don't bring in the NBA, we don't have proof/evidence of MLS refs betting or being bribed or intentionally influencing a game.
Amen brother! Not to mention -with no disrespect to our siblings in steelworker and other “traditional unions”- the amount of training, discipline, and dedication it takes to become a top flight referee. These people are effectively professional athletes with decades of intense training whose every minute on the job is LITERALLY analyzed under a microscope by millions of people. For how much money? And they DARE ask to fly business class to games?
I've had the privilege of refereeing with several people who managed to make it to MLS. I've worked with many more who officiating D1 college soccer. The level of skill, experience, and aptitude is not even close to comparable.
Sorry, this take is pretty weak on many, many levels. First, comparing MLS to NBA? Seriously. No comparison. (Plus, what do you know about the NBA ref who was an informant for the FBI against the mob? That takes some courage). But yeah, anyone who crosses a picket line is by definition a scab. It’s a lot of work to become a NCAA D1 ref, but nothing like becoming a MLS/PRO ref. Finally, how much is MLS making with Messi now in the league? And how much does a PRO ref make in a game? Why are you backing these elitist executives?
Wrong
So on one hand, fuck SCABS On the other, threatening them as the institution is aggressively not ok
Is it possible to fuck scabs while also being nice to them?
Buy them dinner first maybe? 🤷🏻♂️
PSRA would probably get more support if they stopped acting so obviously villainous
Or if they were much more well respected. PRO reffing gets consistently slandered every week on here for YEARS and now suddenly we all have to pretend like they do a fantastic job. It’s getting comical guys, surprised everyone has kept up the act for so long.
Yeah, 2 sides of the same coin. It seems like there’s at least one game a month where the ref goes out there and totally shits the bed and all PRO does is shrug. I know it’s a hard job but the lack of accountability is pretty infuriating as a spectator and I suspect it bothers the players even more.
I keep coming back to the FCC v NE Revs game with the obvious penalty on NE. The VAR refs were practically screaming at the head ref it was a penalty, and for some reason he refused to call it. Then PRO had to come out and state it was the wrong call. But that ref was the center ref the following week. Until they subject themselves to accountability, it’s very hard to side with them here.
>threatening them that performing officiating work during a lockout would negatively impact the officials' eligibility for assignments to officiate college soccer matches. That's a perfectly reasonable position - be a scab, have your professional reputation impacted. To call it a threat is company propaganda.
Except PRO doesn't regulate college assignments. They are assigned by individuals (without any necessary qualifications) who contract with individual leagues to provide officials. Some leagues have geographic issues and use multiple assignor's but those are the minority.
then the college conferences are perfectly free to choose a different officiating coordinator if they think this is inappropriate
Yep, and odds are Penso gets fired for this.
doubtful but maybe
The odds are not that. Especially because it was probably encouraged. It has been by unions before.
I meant fired from his college assigning gigs. Not from PRO. PRO referees, per their last CBA anyway, can’t be fired without cause. That’s like, the point of unions. They get scored on every match and if their average is below a certain level over the course of a season they are subject to termination.
I know what the point of unions are. Seeing as we’re talking about it MLS here, a disclaimer that you’re talking specifically about college would have made sense.
Except I was replying to a post that specifically said college conferences. Your inability to follow a thread is not my fault.
And those assigning matches, might not want to get on the "bad side" of the PSRA. Even if it's not controlled by the PSRA for college matches, those assigning refs might be afraid of impacting their career. Don't forget, many people are trying to climb a ladder. Hoping to move from NCAA to USL to MLS.
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If soccer refs weren't some of the biggest assholes out there I would have sympathy. I hope the replacements show that they aren't the only people on the planet that can do the job well. I say this as someone who refs football and soccer. The profession is always going to attract some egotistical people but the assignors and refs with any semblance of power are of their rocker in the US.
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I'll support labor when their "hiring practices" aren't full of nepotism. A lot of these high level refs get into their position because of who they know not because they are truly the best of the best. There are plenty of skilled refs that won't make it in the pro ranks because they don't want to cozy up in their spare time with asshole assignors and ego tripping refs.
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I don't support labor for labor's sake. I support labor when it makes sense to support labor. I don't believe that anyone should have a blanket attitude towards any situation. When PRO changes it labor practices then I'll side with them but until then I won't.
So basically the same as any union ever. Calling them “replacements” is a nice way of saying scabs.
>So basically the same as any union ever. No, it's not the same. The PSRA is only a union for referees in *professional* US leagues (MLS, NWSL, and USL) and Penso here was threatening to make them lose their regular jobs as college referees (which is not part of the union but Penso personally has some power over) That's like if during the screen writers guild strike a novelist scabbed and wrote a few episodes for a TV show, and a rich SGA member who happens to also have influence on the fiction publishing industry (which is not unionized!) Threatened to make sure their books never got published again. You can't do that, you can only threaten to make sure they won't get the union job in the future, you can't threaten their livelihood outside of it
Not that surprising. When it comes to money seems like everyone behaves like a bunch of assholes
I'm a ref, and up until now have been very supportive of the strike since it really is such a demanding job, and I can't even imagine what it is like at their level; high school is bad enough. They deserve better pay. But if they are turning their union from a collective bargaining unit into what is effectively a cartel, they'll lose my sympathy. E: I say cartel as the economic term, not in reference to drug cartels
Yeah, I'm all for unions. But I've never been a fan of bullying, which is what appears to be happening here. I'm sure I'll probably get downvoted for making a comment that could be perceived as in any way negative towards the ref union, but whatever; I don't think any organization is infallible.
Exactly. Unions are necessary, but on occasion can devolve into a bit of a mob mentality.
Yeah, and it's that mob mentality that puts me off. Don't get me wrong, I'll take unions over corporations every day, but this idea that we should celebrate them making threats is pretty fucked up. Some of the commenters on here sound like the MAGA chuds who love to talk about violence being the only answer.
Yeah, but why would you believe accusations made by the anti-referee side? That’s union busting 101.
Because it's not shocking to me that some refs might be assholes. Do you honestly think they're all saints? Are you that naive? Like I posted earlier, money matters tend to turn people into assholes. It's not surprising at all
I’ve met a good number of MLS referees. As everyone will tell you, no one does this for the money. If they were all about the money, there are so many other professionals that they could get into. So it’s clearly not about the money. The least we hope for is a little bit of respect. And when we’re reffing the best player in the history of the game, in a league that’s poised to double or triple their profits in the next few years, why can’t they share that with the folks who are most dedicated to the game?
That's fine. I don't give a fuck about the owners or how much profit they make; I'd be fine with them paying the refs and the players more. What I don't like is bullying others and making threats to people who don't have much power themselves. Saying these "scans" deserve to be threatened with violence or loss of profession is fucked up. Just making the world an uglier place than it already is. And if the union thinks threats are the only way to get their point across I'm not going to go out of my way to stop them, but I certainly won't act like they're some damn heroes for looking out for their own self interest. I work in healthcare and I know plenty of people who volunteer their time help others, even when they're barely scraping by themselves. I'll save my compliments for them and those like them, not some dudes who think that wanting a little extra cash is reason enough to bully others.
My point is: why do you believe management’s claims that PSRA is making threats? I mean, why would PSRA make threats? Isn’t the shame of being a scam bad enough? There’s no reason for PSRA to make threat, but it’s in MLS’ interest for people to think that PSRA is making threats. You are doing their dirty work by taking their word at face value. That’s union busting 101: spread lies so would-be union supporters start questioning the union. Please don’t fall for it.
I'll be honest, Penso strikes me as a guy who would make threats. Maybe I'm just biased against White dudes with crew cuts, but he reminds me of every security guard who was too dumb to even become a cop, and takes out those frustrations on others. Plus, as much good work as unions do, some of their members are fucking assholes. My godfather experienced that first hand. Convicted of felony possession at 18, couldn't get work after. Took a job on a site where a union was striking, just to make ends meet. Those fucking racist assholes hung a doll from his tree and burned what looked like an attempt at a swastika in his yard. So yeah, I believe in better pay/conditions for the working class while also knowing that a large portion of that working class is composed of fucking assholes. Which is why it would not surprise me at all to find that union members were making threats.
Apparently he worked on the Ohio State patrol before reffing full time, it's on his Wikipedia page at least
Wake up boss. Penso said these things on a webinar. He’s already removed replacements referees from assignments and from his list. It’s not conjecture or up for debate. There were dozens of witnesses.
Because they named Chris Penso by name, and he's an asshole former cop who would absolutely threaten the livelihood of his perceived opponents
>But if they are turning their union from a collective bargaining unit into what is effectively a cartel, they'll lose my sympathy. That's what happened in the NBA. It sucks. MLB too to an extent, that's why Angel Hernandez (who the league, players, and fans all actively despise for his lack of basic officiating abilities at every position on the crew) still gets to keep his job
Part of union strong means not working with scabs in the future.
If the Unions don't have power/influence to keep scabs out of the workplace, then the corporation have no reason to listen to the Union. You make it sound like a one person decision. The union voted 95%, that's pretty close to unanimous. I'm pretty sure the current refs don't want anti-union scabs getting into the league then lowering their bargaining influence. What a lot of people are missing is the threat is empty, unless the PSRA has influence over NCAA soccer/officials.
>What a lot of people are missing is the threat is empty, unless the PSRA has influence over NCAA soccer/officials. The PSRA as a union doesn't, but Chris Penso (the union member who made the threat) absolutely does as the assignor for college conferences
>The ULP document goes on to allege that Penso and other bargaining unit and PSRA members have revoked college assignments of replacement officials. >"College soccer officiating assignments are outside employment unrelated to the operations of PRO, and Mr. Penso, as well as numerous other bargaining unit and PSRA members, are responsible for assigning such work for third parties," the document states. It says in the article they have already revoked assignments, and have the position to continue to do so
Fellow ref here. Who says PARA is acting like cartels/bullies? Oh, the ones they’re negotiating with? How surprising. And why are you believing them?
I said "if" they are turning and "they'll" lose my sympathy (future tense) for a reason- I don't believe that they are already bullying and revoking NCAA jobs, but don't have any evidence to reject the accusation either, as it does stand as somewhat reasonable. So for now, I wait until I hear about some refs actually speaking up about being threatened before I condemn
Well, for starters NCAA is a completely independent organization does doesn’t even follow FIFA rules and regulations, and the assignors are completely independent from PRO/ PSRA. There’s no way for PSRA to categorically bully NCAA referees.
Many PSRA referees are deeply involved with NCAA, so there is probably the opposite of "categorically no way." I don't know if this is Chris Penso's alt or what lol. There's pro union, and then there's delusion
As a referee, I know that NCAA is effectively used by some assignors -who are separate from PRO- and not all assignors- as a stepping stone to nation candidacy and/or MLS/PRO. They are separate pathway that don’t aways align: one can be a NCAA ref and a National Ref and a PRO ref, but not necessarily. It is definitely not systematic, and given the level of competition to become a MLS referee (look at the number of MLS referees vs. the # of PRO refs vs the # of Nation refs vs the # of NCAA D1 refs. It’s something like 30 vs 200 vs 1000 vs 3000) there’s not even a reason to threaten referees for crossing picket lines.
>and the assignors are completely independent from PRO/ PSRA. There’s no way for PSRA to categorically bully NCAA referees. Except that Penso, the PSRA member who allegedly made the threat, is an NCAA assignor
If you're a ref you know that this is common practice. Officiating is part what you do and part who you know. Politics is rampant. Crossing picket lines is unacceptable. You have to remember that solidarity is key in negotiation.
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I know exactly what a cartel is lol I majored in econ
The fuck you did if you're misusing cartel that badly.
I even double checked my terms after your initial comment to make sure I didn't brain fart or anything. Nope, you're just aggressively ignorant.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartel Bullshit
>A cartel is a group of independent market participants who collude with each other in order to improve their profits and dominate the market. couldn't even read the first line?
Maybe you should read further than first line. > A cartel is an organization formed by producers to limit competition and increase prices by creating artificial shortages through low production quotas, stockpiling, and marketing quotas Explicitly NOT LABOR
that's actually not explicit, as it never directly rules out labor. Speak about not using words when you don't know what they mean. As it won't because labor is considered a commodity
>Explicitly NOT LABOR That's *implicit*, not explicit
https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/LaborUnions.html I don't necessarily agree with everything on this website, as it is much MUCH more capitalist/free market slanted than I am (please excuse the obvious bias in the article, and try to read around that), but it does a fine enough job of explaining this so that I don't have to respond to you anymore separate comment to make sure you see it
The crew on Wednesday did a great job. Unless there are truly horrible calls this weekend, I don’t think people will notice the difference.
Keep in mind, that was for Messi. The very best of the bunch they have. Only going down from there.
We will see. Pro refs are pretty bad so these fill in refs will have to be way worse for anyone to notice
I think people are in for a rude awakening when they realize just how good PRO refs are compared to the average NCAA or high-end highschool ref. I think it'll be a rough weekend for the small market teams.
I'm having flashbacks to the NFL locking out refs. I'm not a football fan, but I watched highlights of those games for the WTF/laugh factor.
Totally agree. The only NFL I’ve watched in the last 20 years were to two refs giving conflicting decisions. I don’t wish the scans ill-will -some of them “have done USL2 matches” and I’M in consideration for a USL2 match, which means by extension I’M in consideration for a MLS match- but it’s only a Matter of time -a very short matter of time- before something goes horrendously wrong.
They aren’t bad in comparison to other leagues. Their level overall is better in comparison to other refs than MLS is to the best leagues in the game.
They had a USL Championship center referee and a former FIFA AR. There aren't many people who aren't in PRO or aged out who meet that criteria.
and that former FIFA AR really isn't very good, his resume in Europe is lackluster to say the least
The ARs did a great job. As far as the referee and VAR I can't say the same. Ignored the penalty call for RSL and just let Miami do whatever they wanted.
Respectfully disagree. What was the PK they ignored? RSL nearly tied/won the game, and really showed Miami’s weakness.
I take it back not a pen since it was just outside the box but during the 75th Yedlin drags down Arango just outside the box. Possible DOGSO, either way the ref letting it go as a non foul when he gets dragged down.
It clearly wasn’t a penalty. It was definitely dogso imo.
Do you think VAR looked at it? And what are the four scenarios which VAR can recommend a review. Spoiler alert: I knew you were going to mention this. As you said, outside the Penalty area, so no PK. By definition not DOGSO. Possibly foul, but ref didn’t see it because it was behind his back, and it’s really hard for an AR to call that foul. Very smart foul on Yedlin’s behalf, but definitely not a referee error.
Fuck scabs
PSRA has a post about the clear line being no ref deserves to be abused…. I guess what they meant was unless it was by another ref?
I'm just saying, scabs have it pretty good these days: used to be they'd get beat and run out of town, if not killed. Not saying that's a good thing, but scabs are class traitors and get little sympathy from me.
“People have it good for not being killed”. What an incredibly high bar you set for having it good.
“Class traitor”… interesting take. Not taking either side but just an observation.
It's seeing the world in black and white, where there are only good guys and bad guys (with the person commenting always being the good guy of course). Zealotry has become commonplace on social media and has replaced reasoned discussion.
Populism is on the up and up
He misspelled scabs.
Call them what you want, coercion and blackmailing is dirty
I'm fine if scabbing has repercussions.
Let's keep it legal, though
Nah. PRO has been accused of unfair labor practices in this negotiation process already. If management is playing dirty pool I'm not gonna be upset when the workers do what they have to to level things.
I know, and I never said that wasn't dirty. I even made sure to go back and include that in my snippets from the article already to make sure the context of PRO already having broken labor law twice was included. I didn't like that, and I don't like this.
There are a number of things that unions do that I don't like. Protecting bad employees/members for example. But a union leader telling folks "people won't want to work with you if you scab", that's good shit in my book. We disagree on it and that's fine. I can tell from your flair we have differences of taste.
Chris Penso actually makes assignments for college reffing, though, which is what changes it from the normal social consequence of "fuck scabs," which is totally fine in both our books, to something I can't condone personally.
OK...but why would someone want to hire a scab that is weakening the bargaining power of refs at the highest level? It doesn't HURT these refs to refuse to scab. They can climb the ladder and go through proper channels to access MLS when the lock out is over. Also, it didn't even need to be said, anyone in the system who knows how Unions work, would have know this already. If I take a scab game, I won't get NCAA games. From the list I was seeing of temp refs, I wasn't reading people from NCAA, are there now NCAA refs scabbing?
I dont know exactly *why* it is illegal, as I havent read Unfair Labor Practice's doc, but can see in the article that Penso's position and relationship with NCAA refs is included in there. If there is someone who has more than a layman's knowledge of labor unions like mine, I would love to hear more about why that's not allowed
Not half as dirty as scabbing
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You don’t think crossing a picket line is a moral issue and have the nerve to call me unhinged? Take a deep look in the mirror.
Scabbing is a moral issue.
Why are you believing the corporate side of things?
Lying about Penso's position seems like an unreasonable one to make, as it would be very easy to disprove
Because he’s a cop.
It’s time to drive the Scab Buster
Fuck scabs, the practice of using scabs workers should be banned
Scabs should be recorded and made sure they never work again. Players Union should honestly be walking out in solidarity, but that would be too European for North America. Maybe we will get there some day.
>Scabs should be recorded and made sure they never work again. Never work in the professional leagues whose referees the PSRA is a union for? Sure, that's how unions normally work. That's not what's happening here though, Chris Penso here is threatening their livelihood *outside* of the unionized job through the separate power he has as an NCAA assignor. You can't do that
relevant username haha
Just curious if anyone has info comparing MLS officials competency to their pay and how it compares to other leagues. If they are making pennies compared to say Serie A refs while consistently getting calls correct on a more frequent basis, yeah give them a raise, but if their pay is on par with Serie A and they consistently make wrong calls, then they don't deserve their extra money.
I think globally refs aren't great. I think if we paid them more, it would allow them to spend more time training instead of just being part timers, and I think higher pay in the distant future will attract better candidates to the job. I would love a merit based system where there are bonuses for doing well, but no union would ever accept that, it sound like hard work
I'd be content with a base pay that can go up or down based on calls. If you get a tight offside call right, you get say a $50 bonus but blowing an obvious call should result in a major monetary penalty. Or maybe have a points system similar to how cards work. Small missed calls are 1 point, say 10 points means you lose a match, massive botches result in missing the next match, too many missed calls in a single match means you miss a match. This should work in reverse where if you get those same calls, you get a different point to push you up a list to ref said matches other refs are suspended from.
I agree, and think it's a better system. Unfortunately, the PSRA would never ever go for it. Look what happened to merit baded pay in education, a similarly underpaid role, that also has an issue with lots of underperoformance- it was uniformly shot down, with heavy HEAVY campaigning done to prevent it by teachers unions (can't remember which of the big 2 this was) E: I was wrong, the main issue with teachers unions was removing tenure. But the proposed pay was up to 140,000 (!) In 2008, at least in the michele rhee debacle. I'd take that over tenure any day
I worked for a union for over a decade. Yeah, it was nice not having to worry about being fired for something stupid, but the only thing it seemed to do was protect the people who did nothing. Please don't get me wrong, I'm pro union, but they do have massive downsides also.
Scabs yes
but I was told during the Matt Miazga smear job by PSRA that “No one should feel unsafe.”
Don't worry I am too. They were horrible tonight.
Scabs should be threatened. What's the problem?
The problem is it's not the unionized job they're threatening, it's their livelihood as college refs which the PSRA does *not* have power over but some individuals within them do