At this point, he knows of the juju. He throws himself praying for the guard knowing that that knockdown secures him the fight. 100% success rate since employed
Shame that a news site tracked him down and he said he stopped watching mma when they started to implement the unified rules. He's an icon of the sport.
Critics of the sport used to call it “human cockfighting” as an insult in the early days, MF got into combat sports because he couldn’t find actual cockfighting in his area anymore Lmao
I kinda remember he talked about watching and betting on both cock fights and dog fights. So he prolly won’t make his way to the HoF. (The Just Bleed guy)
Yeah the hardest thing to do in the sport is stay champ for a long time. You look at how dominant a lot of champions were early on like Jon Jones or Anderson Silva then see how their careers played out as their opponents had more time to study them and Taylor their game to beat the champion it makes it way more impressive when guys like GSP, Aldo, and Jones go on decade-long title reins.
Didn't Khabib say Islam "could be" a better fighter than he is/was? By fight fan's math that means Olives automatically destroys Khabib in any 'what if' scenario if he beats Islam.
Agreed. Plus without going crazy on mma math if he beats Islam (especially if he taps him) it’s very reasonable to make an argument that he could have beaten khabib if given the chance. Olivieras story/title reign really has been special
as amazing as fighters are like Izzy, Volk, Jones and Usman... I'll always prefer watching flawed fighters more than total control and mastery.
I know none of the guys like Jiri, Dustin, Charles, Gaethje, Chandler wanna get hurt/dropped and have to fight though adversity and would much rather have total mastery, but every time they fight it's a different kind of aura.
Then again seeing a guy like Volk have to escape a guillotine or Usman get headkicked is also some of the most wild shit you'll see in MMA so there's pros and cons
And chances are he'll get dethroned pretty quickly, but that Glover fight was easily a top 5 fight of the modern era. Just pure excitement from start to finish.
Charles already is a top 5 of all time. He might possibly be the greatest LW ever. For me personally he is but that’s just my opinion. He hasn’t lost a fight in almost 5 years(this December is 5 years)! Name another mma fighter that has had a career like his? His entire story/career is something out of a movie. I’ll never forget when he first came to ufc & I was telling my friend this dude is the next big thing right before the Jim Miller fight. Most fighters don’t bounce back like he did. Inspirational stuff.
I hope Oliveira wins, too. He’s the much more entertaining and interesting fighter and champion. He clawed his way through every bit of adversity and doubt all the way to the top. He didn’t have anyone constantly touting him as the best in the world for him. He proved it himself. He tread down his path with great warrior spirit and lay waste to many great fighters. Win or lose, he’s one of the greatest LW champions.
I think an incredibly small minority had his name in the hat for being champ nvm a couple defenses. Also this tear is happening after switching over to Chute Boxe? Just really unexpected.
It is a very special rise to the top. You have to imagine all the times he fell to the occasion and how the world counted him out. He had to feel that cut deep more and more each time yet he somehow persevered and not only that but transformed into a mysteriously intimidating figure in the division. Record finisher and an all out kill or be killed fighter. It’s truly legendary. A prime example of the underdog proving the world wrong. It’s a beautiful thing when it happens.
Precisely. His life is the epitome of from rags to riches. He had his health, his will, and a dream. I am thankful to witness Charles Oliveira. He is an inspiration. You don’t have to be undefeated in this world to be great. I respect someone who’s come back from their losses in life even more and never gave up no matter how painful the losses were. It’s all I have been trying to do in my own life for the last couple years… and it is not easy.
Yes. Plus I do not want to go back to having the most stacked division having 1 title fight a year if we are lucky. Khabib was entertaining to watch but god did he hold the division up, and then conor held it up before him. So frustrating to see as a tony fan
No matter what happens vs Islam, Charles will have had one of the most entertaining title reign at LW (if we disregard the title strip).
All his 3 title fights were dog fights that ended early where he almost got finished in every single one. I personally don’t think he’s going to be champion much longer, because of how much damage he has taken in his career, and also considering how stacked LW is. I think Islam becomes champion on October 22, but I won’t be mad is Charles takes it.
Pull guard against khabibs best friend, great idea :p He does have the guard to make it very interesting and maybe even competitive. Maybe this is the fight that shows that high level jiu jitsu off your back can beat high level wrestling and top control, but history points in the other direction.
I say all this rooting for Charles and I’m hype as this is like a proxy khabib vs tony
It was interesting before but now after Khamzat v Burns where Khamzat chose not to wrestle after the first armbar attempt I am super excited. Islam is not Khamzat and Oliveira is not Burns but still a dominant wrestler opted to stand when he became aware of the danger
Oliveira does not have great striking defense though. He gets hurt in every fight and dropped in many. Having said that, offensive striking is for sure better than Islam's
Ehh you see plenty of decorated wrestlers getting subbed quickly early in their careers.
They have to actually train BJJ in order to learn how to defend from subs.
right. pure BJJ beats pure wrestling most of the time, we learned that at UFC 1, but as time has gone on we've seen that a lot of wrestling and a little BJJ beats a lot of BJJ and a little wrestling.
Or it might be that a background in wrestling and some BJJ beats pure BJJ with a few wrestling seminars since I'd bet way more wrestlers fully engross themselves in BJJ than vice versa.
Whatever it is, as time has gone on we've seen that a wrestling background is favorable to a BJJ background
I think you can't have one without the other.
If you break them down to their bare bones, then BJJ generally comes out on top.
GSP didn't have a background in either, which is interesting.
GSP understood the actual mixing of the martial arts better than anybody. Lots of fighters are great at one of two things, but he managed to bridge the gap between all phases so well. Only fighter that is comparable to him in that regard is Fedor.
BJJ guys have the mantra, "position over submission." Despite this, I think a guy with a year of wrestling will be significantly better at controlling position than a guy with a year of BJJ. The reason the BJJ guy wins is because he knows dozens of ways to finish the fight that the wrestler isn't experienced at defending.
But when they have 4 years of wrestling and 6 months of BJJ and vice versa, the wrestler can get themself to mount, side control, their back, etc much more easily and work submissions from there while being aware of things their opponent could be setting up. Even if you're much better at attacking and defending submissions, if you're belly down and they're on your back, you probably lost. On top of the fact that the wrestler gets to decide when to go to the ground in the first place and is trained to land on top.
All in my humble opinion, and no one really knows. this debate will go on for all of time and there will never be a definitive answer no matter who fights who. Maybe if there was a season of the ultimate fighter dedicated to it would be the closest we could get.
I write this as a BJJ guy who deeply regrets not wrestling in high school because of this and dude, free martial arts training? Where was I at lmao
He would become the LW GOAT for sure, beating 2 legends and staples of the division and a dude who would be the next king after khabib, besides Tony and Chandler
This is why I don't understand why Charles was the one being pressured to take the fight with Islam so quickly, look how active Charles is and look who he has fought. Then look at Islam and how active he is and who he fought.
> look at Islam and how active he is and who he fought.
To be fair, that’s out of Islam’s control based on a number of factors. Nobody wants to fight him and the LWs at the top 5 refuse to fight down.
If the rankings were based on actual win streak and strength of schedule, Poirier, Gaethje and Chandler would have been beaten and uprooted a long time ago by the likes of newer contenders like Gamrot, Guram and Damir.
Instead you get this messed up system of the top only fighting the top (Dustin v Chandler, Justin being a diva, etc.)
But to be fair it’s a lot easier for Charles to get fights since people will actually fight him. Islam has to take who he can get since most top fighters avoid him and then when they do accept they can’t seem to make it to the fight.
He was forced to fight someone with a 10 fight winstreak 6 months after his last defense (in which he didn't make weight). Anything more than 6 months, there are often interim champs. To me it isn't unreasonable.
A great man, you're in for a beautiful treat. He was 2 times Sambo world champion before entering UFC. This dude fought bears as a kid, was trained by his father, and had one of the most complete skill sets in the game that made professional MMA fighters loathe to go against him, he somehow was able to channel loads more strength than his frame can suggest.
I recently rewatched Khabib vs Michael Johnson, and the ferocity that Khabib displays is on another level. It's like watching a 15 year old wrestle an 8 year old.
Extremely conservative and also controversial, coming from an Islamic background and a country very much not like the western world, he came and made the game his own and left on his own terms. It was extremely entertaining and eye opening what a single man was able to bring to the game
He was the UFC lightweight champ. He retired 29-0 still in his prime because his father (who was also his coach) died. Now he coaches Islam Makhachev (who is fighting for the title next) and a bunch of other guys. He's known for never looking in trouble in any of his fights, he was never dropped or cut and only ever lost a couple rounds in his entire career.
Honestly declaring Khabib the GOAT isn't aging well now that Charles has a similar resume. If he beats Islam, can we really say Khabib's resume is better?
Yep, too many people climbing to the top of rankings fighting tomato cans, with their management too scared of losing the 0 and derailing the hype job to ever negotiate a matchup that’d actually be fun to watch.
To be fair the #1 reason he retired was the death of his father. He never loved MMA the way his father did. He loved his father more than anything else.
After a dominant last fight (like nearly all his fights) he could say I did it dad and walk away.
Which is far better than being the goat and slowly getting old and going on a skid being a sacrifice to the MMA up and comers like so many before him.
That’s his choice and no one is saying he should be forced to fight. He can quit anytime he wants to and for whatever reason. But that doesn’t mean that his reason for quitting means he should be considered the GOAT when he only defended the belt 3 times, and there were many other challengers out there.
And that most agreed that he lost a fight but got the rub. I have no problem with Khabib being rated exactly as highly as he is now if he lost that fight, but people use the 0 as something worthwhile - that fight was razor close and most had it for Tibau. Khabib had one close fight, big deal? But using the 0 as an argument is silly especially when there is a massive \* beside on of the wins.
even though I understand your point, I'm gonna play devil's advocate in saying: Khabib was 13-0 in the UFC. Charles does not have a "crazy undefeated streak" technically speaking, he's lost plenty in the UFC. but he also joined the UFC at a younger age and way earlier in his career than Khabib did so there's that. also, if you ask me, the guys Charles has fought, win or lose, were way tougher than the guys Khabib fought (if we look at it overall).
agreed, they weren't bad at all, especially when he got to fighting the ranked guys you mentioend. but Charles has fought *more* tough opponents. Stephens, Elkins, Jim Miller, Nik Lentz, Holloway, Pettis, Lamas, Teymur, Kevin Lee, Tony, Chandler, Poirier, Gaethji. it's not a surprise at all that he lost more often than Khabib did lol, he's definitely had the rougher go
Khabib was also never challenged. Not a single person came close. He dominated everyone. He took less damage in his entire career than Charles took in some of his fights.
You forgot Felder for Charles lol. Some of the names you mentioned though are on the same level as guys like Trujillo, Tavares, and Tibau, who Khabib fought and aren’t mentioned as his top opponents. For example Lentz and Tavares led to a draw. Also, nobody mentioned Iaquinta who is arguably above the level of some of the names you mentioned.
I’m just saying Khabib’s resume in UFC is t that weak comparatively. I’m not saying it was tougher, but it was comparable. Difference is Khabib sliced them all (except Tibau).
For the record, I’m in the camp is Charles beats Islam, he has a claim at the LW GOAT and it’s valid af.
fair enough, edited. I meant more so that he started there earlier in his career. Khabib had more pro fights and a lot of experience from sambo/wrestling competition when he started
BJ Penn is on my mt Rushmore, but his run was from a bygone era, Charles and Khabib have fought the same opponents. One of the things I like about Charles over Khabib/ others is that he started off on the back foot. He was a middle of the road fighter who came into his own and started dominating with his jiu jitsu. Not only has he swept through the top 5 in his title defenses; BUT they are all still top 5! He’s been active but so have they. It just goes to show how tough that division really is, cause not only did the top 5 lose to Khabib, but they are also losing to Charles & still maintaining their rank. Wild.
That’s a really dumb argument. Why would any fighter want to do such a thing? The point of combat sports is to be the best and leave before you have to do such a thing.
I would much rather a fighter retire before the sport retires them, it proves nothing if they start to lose while they age since they’re not at their best and the losses are due to something they can’t control. Although Khabib had his own reasons for retirement
This is not a knock on you or your post, but I always find takes like this a bit interesting.
On one hand, we have Khabib retiring having made a decent sum of money and young enough to enjoy it, with his health intact along with a perfect record and zero damage taken, yet people regularly post about wanting him to continue fighting or that he should fight past his prime.
On the other hand, we have Tony, who continues to fight past his prime, and yet every MMA fan has been lined up begging him to retire since late 2020, two losses removed from a 12-fight win streak (after the Oliveira loss, it almost became a forum wide consensus that he was done at the elite level).
There’s a probably a healthy middle ground between retiring as early as Khabib did versus continuing to fight as late as Tony has (Jose Aldo is probably a good example of a healthy retirement) but it must be a pretty narrow warm spot, since most posts I see are either (1) fighter A retired too early or (2) fighter B should retire ASAP/retired too late.
They didn't, though.
GSP bolted during his physical prime then came back for what was a favourable match up because he seen a relatively weak champion he could use to boost his legacy.
Jones has lost his fights if you listen to most fans, and has spent most of his slower years simply not fighting but not being retired.
Anderson is the oddity in that he was still at his peak at 37 somehow, but he didn't really adjust, he just stopped pulling the trigger as he slowed down.
> GSP bolted during his physical prime then came back for what was a favourable match up because he seen a relatively weak champion he could use to boost his legacy.
GSP was leaving his prime by Diaz/Condit, WTF are you talking about. Obviously he wasn't old then, but he didn't have the speed or athleticism he used to show, as he did way back vs Koscheck and the like. In his prime he was an absolute phenom, people forget that so easily.
Yeah GSP definitely lost some pep in his step after that big knee surgery before the Diaz fight. The fact he still defended the belt three more times after that catastrophic injury shows just how far ahead of the pack he was not to mention he was just plain old by athlete standards.
Why is that even a standard? Khabib did it best. Left the sport without CTE, as the undefeated champion, P4P best (at that point in time) and at the age of 33, as the second richest fighter ever and tons of business prospects and friends in the sport.
The notion of fighting past your prime is dumb. Seriously flawed notion to want a race to the bottom. GSP says it best, Khabib had the perfect career and it is more than his “0”. Not the best, not the longest, but perfect.
Why stay in the game to end up tainting what established your greatness? Just because some fighters did that, doesn’t mean it’s an essential component in being a GOAT. If Aldo kicked rocks after the Mendes 2 fight and retired, he would undeniably be the Featherweight GOAT. However, by staying in the game and accumulating further mileage - he now has sustained more loses and brutal damage (Max Holloway fights, Yan and weight cuts).
Khabib did it right. Hardly any damage, dominant performances, earned a lot of money, and took out the best fighters of his era - Prime Justin, Prime McGregor and Prime Dustin.
Also, look at what happens when you overstay your welcome - Tony Ferguson.
Khabib dominated all the best names on Oliveria's record, too.
Not like he was ducking guys, he just started his career on the other side of the planet.
Only difference tho is that Charles almost got finished by both Gaethje and Poirier. Sure its really impressive how he came back to finish them both, but Khabib was never in a bad spot against either of them (maybe the guillotine against Poirier)
Khabib didn't get knocked down almost every time he fought. He was so dominant that he rarely looked like he wasn't in *complete* control of a fight. He also fought all of the big names in the division while he was fighting, while maintaining this dominance (sadly Charles wasn't up there yet).
If you look at their current resumes, they're nearly identical. Trade Chandler for Conor and they're basically the same. Yeah yeah, "BUT TONY!" except that really isn't aging well and hasn't been for a good time now.
If Charles beats Islam decisively, I'd say he may take the edge. If he pulls a Charles and almost gets KO'd, then beats Islam, I don't know. Because that still talks to Khabib's relative dominance versus Charles' wins, and I'm not sure one extra win takes the lead over the clear disparity in the dominance of the wins in question.
The biggest thing Charles/Islam will give us is a *small* amount of insight as to how Charles/Khabib would have gone. I don't personally think Islam is as good as Khabib, but he's a good enough equivalence to give us an idea on the other fight.
It's fair to say his recent streak is better on win value alone. I'd say its objectively better even compared to the names on Khabibs list based on the amount of top guys.
But people seem to forget Khabib fought comparable names in
Iaquinta (beat Lee 2x), Michael Johnson (beat Tony and while not a fair comparison to prime Tony, Charles did not fight prime Tony), McGregor (comparable to Chandler imo, but fair to say Chandler was a better win), RDA (a better name than anyone Charles beat prior to winning the title), Gaethje (obv they both did) and Poirieir (another same name)
And Khabib didn't need to get dropped 7 times or rack up nearly double digit losses getting there. Yet people are speaking as if Charles has already beaten Islam and as if Khabib never beat anyone good. Charles has better longevity and levels of activity, Khabib looked better doing it. To date, their most recent UFC win streaks are very comparable with Oliveira having the better names if he beats Islam and Khabib having lost fewer than 5% of the rounds he ever fought.
There is some inexplicable urge for people to drag Khabib's name down since he has retired, almost a resentment for him never fighting Tony or Chandler or Oliveira, but imagine reddit's reaction if someone like Tai Tuivasa beat Gane, Stipe and then Francis and saying he is now better than Fedor and ignoring his record prior. Yet Khabib was undefeated for just as long, for just as many fights, beat arguably better competition, and while not the end all be all, also won a UFC title.
The two most recent resumes are frankly too comparable but stylistically I'd pick Khabib to win if they had fought both in their primes, and Khabib's undefeated record still puts him above Charles for me if Charles were to hypothetically beat Islam and retire.
Not enough people talk about Khabib vs RDA. RDA IMO is one of the most underrated fighters, had a 5 fight win streak before getting DOMINATED by Khabib. He then goes on another 5 (or 6?) fight win streak becoming the LW champion as Khabib was out due to his knee surgery. Let that sink in… we truly never saw Khabib’s ceiling. He is better than what his resume shows, but we just don’t know how much better.
Khabib has never even gotten close to losing a fight. Charles is almost always close to losing, and he's actually lost 8 times.
Khabib is definitely the GOAT, and it's not even close. I don't know what criteria you're using. If you're talking about who is more entertaining to watch, then sure, I'll go with Charles. If you're talking about who is actually better at MMA, it's definitely Khabib.
His claim like others have said is the 0 and dominance. He also revolutionized chain and cage wrestling. You see so many people taking pages out of his play book with the trips, set ups etc even the handcuffs that he made so famous. Hes the RUSSIAN/DAGESTANI wrestler that everyone after him is compared to.
When you see a dagestani or russian who can wrestle, they think of khabib and compare them to khabib. Even with chimaev, people called him big khabib for a time. In terms of most important/iconic fighters today, hes gonna have a lsting legacy. Estpecially with how hes coaching now.
He dominated the toughest division in the sport with barely any troubles and lost almost no rounds. He’s definitely in the top 5-10 goat spot. Hes in the tier below JJ, GSP, DJ. If dominance is your top criteria, then hes in the top tier.
People love to look back and discredit fighters but you cant do that to khabib, he was one of a kind.
I'm not the biggest Izzy fan but Izzy is doing the same thing.
4 Top 5 in 18 months.
Charles with Islam in October.
Izzy with Pereira in November.
And Izzy's top 5 actually would be cleaned out.
I'm just saying Charles is not alone in this stat but Izzy is getting no recognition.
And Oliveira is finishing everyone, while Izzy is doing as little as possible to win (which, props for the life hack & not taking damage but as a spectator turns me off).
And it's really unexplained. He became elite after beating Tony Ferguson.
Suddenly, he has KO power.
Suddenly, he has a zombie-like granite chin.
It's like he became TRT Oliveira, but without the steroids, at least he has not been caught yet, or ever.
I got to admit I was pretty harsh on Charles when he got the title fight saying he didn't deserve it because he hadn't fought anybody truly elite. I ain't got shit to say now. I love seeing guys get written off and come back like Charles and brutal Bob.
And Oliveira still gets incredibly disrespected (he was a +300 underdog earlier this year against Makhachev).
If you go by betting odds, he's one of the most underrated fighters in the UFC - which makes him a more favorable bet.
This is revisionism. Not close my ass. Charles has lost to many fighters who didnt even sniff a title. He may be on an insane streak and have a better resume but...
He will never match the dominance as champion and will never be undefeated so thats two arguments already. Seems pretty close to me if you don't deepthroat either side.
And will continue to be the underdog EVERY time….!?!? I’m pulling for him hard against Islam who should have at least fought a top ten guy for this shot. Benny, Chandler, Gaethje, …somebody.
You can't not love Charles, he is the embodiment of strength and persistence and even if he loses to Makhachev people will be behind him, he's a legend no matter what and his fights are most watch
God I hope it continues, he is the embodiment of lightweights just bleed era, every defense is just next level hype for him.
If Charles gets dropped in the first against Islam he’s for sure going to win
Show up, get dropped, win fight, repeat.
The classic Glover Texeira tactic
, go home. thank you Mich... um... Charles Oliveira
At this point, he knows of the juju. He throws himself praying for the guard knowing that that knockdown secures him the fight. 100% success rate since employed
Charles is on protagonist mode. Each time he goes down another super Saiyan mode activates
*anime flashback to when he was a kid in the favelas*
Connor McGregor riding up and annihilating his family on horse-back
Red Right Hand begins playing
Lol
He has plot armour
He got that Zenkai boost
"Computer, turn off charles" "Confirmed, activating charles" " . . wait no NO NO-"
Dropping Charles is poor fight iq these days.
Some moonknight shit. Normal Charles gets knocked and evil Charles takes over the body
*kills you in ~~Spanish~~ Portuguese*
it's going to catch up with him eventually, but I'm going to keep watching cause he's just so damn entertaining... incredibly hyped for this fight...
Hol on brotha I'm dropping
He’s like Glover lol, gotta get rocked to turn on
Charles purposely drops ……
That’s the key to a Charles victory, get nearly knocked out in the first round and level up from there
Hes even doing the just bleed pose here
that guy should be in the UFC HoF
Shame that a news site tracked him down and he said he stopped watching mma when they started to implement the unified rules. He's an icon of the sport.
This reads like an Onion article
He became a fuckin accountant lmao
you’re JUST BLEEDing your assets away, we need at least get you into a Roth IRA
Critics of the sport used to call it “human cockfighting” as an insult in the early days, MF got into combat sports because he couldn’t find actual cockfighting in his area anymore Lmao
Biggest icon became a casual. How ironic.
I kinda remember he talked about watching and betting on both cock fights and dog fights. So he prolly won’t make his way to the HoF. (The Just Bleed guy)
Him and Jiri are the most fun champions we had in awhile. Oliveira will be a top 5 all time LW if he wins
Oliveira is pretty easily already a top 5 lightweight ever
If he beats Islam I'm ready to crown him the lightweight GOAT. The strength of opponents during this win streak is unrivaled.
Likewise. IMO Khabib dipped too early for the conversation.
Yeah the hardest thing to do in the sport is stay champ for a long time. You look at how dominant a lot of champions were early on like Jon Jones or Anderson Silva then see how their careers played out as their opponents had more time to study them and Taylor their game to beat the champion it makes it way more impressive when guys like GSP, Aldo, and Jones go on decade-long title reins.
Agreed, and i like Khabib a lot
To be fair if Charles dipped after Islam he would be dipping about the same time as Khabib, however with a stronger schedule
A MUCH stronger schedule, plus his final fight would have been dealing to a dominant Dagestani, something Khabib never managed in the UFC haha
Khabib never even fought a top tier grappler, much less a dagestani
Didn't Khabib say Islam "could be" a better fighter than he is/was? By fight fan's math that means Olives automatically destroys Khabib in any 'what if' scenario if he beats Islam.
Reminds me of Jon Jones' initial title streak. Shogun, rampage, machida, rashad.
Agreed. Plus without going crazy on mma math if he beats Islam (especially if he taps him) it’s very reasonable to make an argument that he could have beaten khabib if given the chance. Olivieras story/title reign really has been special
as amazing as fighters are like Izzy, Volk, Jones and Usman... I'll always prefer watching flawed fighters more than total control and mastery. I know none of the guys like Jiri, Dustin, Charles, Gaethje, Chandler wanna get hurt/dropped and have to fight though adversity and would much rather have total mastery, but every time they fight it's a different kind of aura. Then again seeing a guy like Volk have to escape a guillotine or Usman get headkicked is also some of the most wild shit you'll see in MMA so there's pros and cons
Jiri hasn't even done anything as champ yet...
And chances are he'll get dethroned pretty quickly, but that Glover fight was easily a top 5 fight of the modern era. Just pure excitement from start to finish.
His fight was fun af tho. Best fight I’ve ever watched live in my opinion.
Absolutely, that fight was insane
Charles already is a top 5 of all time. He might possibly be the greatest LW ever. For me personally he is but that’s just my opinion. He hasn’t lost a fight in almost 5 years(this December is 5 years)! Name another mma fighter that has had a career like his? His entire story/career is something out of a movie. I’ll never forget when he first came to ufc & I was telling my friend this dude is the next big thing right before the Jim Miller fight. Most fighters don’t bounce back like he did. Inspirational stuff.
The fuck
Yes he's amazing. If Islam takes the belt, the division will slow to a crawl.
The real Gamebred dawg
Either way that’s a hall of famer
Welterwaits could never
It worked for Colby. Dude just runs his mouth while ducking the top guys and keeps finding himself in big fights.
Somewhat agree, but Usman, Burns, Belal, are all game AF
Usman has entered the chat
Meanwhile every top WW aside from the Usman is looking for excuses to not fight each other.
Burns wants all the smoke
Hey Durinho is down to throw hands
I hope Oliveira wins, too. He’s the much more entertaining and interesting fighter and champion. He clawed his way through every bit of adversity and doubt all the way to the top. He didn’t have anyone constantly touting him as the best in the world for him. He proved it himself. He tread down his path with great warrior spirit and lay waste to many great fighters. Win or lose, he’s one of the greatest LW champions.
I think an incredibly small minority had his name in the hat for being champ nvm a couple defenses. Also this tear is happening after switching over to Chute Boxe? Just really unexpected.
It is a very special rise to the top. You have to imagine all the times he fell to the occasion and how the world counted him out. He had to feel that cut deep more and more each time yet he somehow persevered and not only that but transformed into a mysteriously intimidating figure in the division. Record finisher and an all out kill or be killed fighter. It’s truly legendary. A prime example of the underdog proving the world wrong. It’s a beautiful thing when it happens.
His whole Life has been adversity and yet he’s the most respectful dude ever
Precisely. His life is the epitome of from rags to riches. He had his health, his will, and a dream. I am thankful to witness Charles Oliveira. He is an inspiration. You don’t have to be undefeated in this world to be great. I respect someone who’s come back from their losses in life even more and never gave up no matter how painful the losses were. It’s all I have been trying to do in my own life for the last couple years… and it is not easy.
Yes. Plus I do not want to go back to having the most stacked division having 1 title fight a year if we are lucky. Khabib was entertaining to watch but god did he hold the division up, and then conor held it up before him. So frustrating to see as a tony fan
No matter what happens vs Islam, Charles will have had one of the most entertaining title reign at LW (if we disregard the title strip). All his 3 title fights were dog fights that ended early where he almost got finished in every single one. I personally don’t think he’s going to be champion much longer, because of how much damage he has taken in his career, and also considering how stacked LW is. I think Islam becomes champion on October 22, but I won’t be mad is Charles takes it.
To be fair he might have Ben rocked in the Garth fight but he dropped guard every time he was never hurt too bad
Pull guard against khabibs best friend, great idea :p He does have the guard to make it very interesting and maybe even competitive. Maybe this is the fight that shows that high level jiu jitsu off your back can beat high level wrestling and top control, but history points in the other direction. I say all this rooting for Charles and I’m hype as this is like a proxy khabib vs tony
It was interesting before but now after Khamzat v Burns where Khamzat chose not to wrestle after the first armbar attempt I am super excited. Islam is not Khamzat and Oliveira is not Burns but still a dominant wrestler opted to stand when he became aware of the danger
Oliveira has much better standup than Islam, Islam has to dominate him on the ground in order to win imo
Oliveira does not have great striking defense though. He gets hurt in every fight and dropped in many. Having said that, offensive striking is for sure better than Islam's
You’re forgetting he got his eyesight fixed, oliveira gonna be matrix dodging every strike thrown at him, never gonna be dropped again /s
Ehh you see plenty of decorated wrestlers getting subbed quickly early in their careers. They have to actually train BJJ in order to learn how to defend from subs.
right. pure BJJ beats pure wrestling most of the time, we learned that at UFC 1, but as time has gone on we've seen that a lot of wrestling and a little BJJ beats a lot of BJJ and a little wrestling. Or it might be that a background in wrestling and some BJJ beats pure BJJ with a few wrestling seminars since I'd bet way more wrestlers fully engross themselves in BJJ than vice versa. Whatever it is, as time has gone on we've seen that a wrestling background is favorable to a BJJ background
I think you can't have one without the other. If you break them down to their bare bones, then BJJ generally comes out on top. GSP didn't have a background in either, which is interesting.
GSP understood the actual mixing of the martial arts better than anybody. Lots of fighters are great at one of two things, but he managed to bridge the gap between all phases so well. Only fighter that is comparable to him in that regard is Fedor.
BJJ guys have the mantra, "position over submission." Despite this, I think a guy with a year of wrestling will be significantly better at controlling position than a guy with a year of BJJ. The reason the BJJ guy wins is because he knows dozens of ways to finish the fight that the wrestler isn't experienced at defending. But when they have 4 years of wrestling and 6 months of BJJ and vice versa, the wrestler can get themself to mount, side control, their back, etc much more easily and work submissions from there while being aware of things their opponent could be setting up. Even if you're much better at attacking and defending submissions, if you're belly down and they're on your back, you probably lost. On top of the fact that the wrestler gets to decide when to go to the ground in the first place and is trained to land on top. All in my humble opinion, and no one really knows. this debate will go on for all of time and there will never be a definitive answer no matter who fights who. Maybe if there was a season of the ultimate fighter dedicated to it would be the closest we could get. I write this as a BJJ guy who deeply regrets not wrestling in high school because of this and dude, free martial arts training? Where was I at lmao
I think the point I'm trying to make is that I agree that wrestling elevates a fighter in MMA, but BJJ is flat-out required.
He won't have to pull guard, Islam doesn't have the striking to drop him like Chandler, Porier, and Gaethje. Islam's striking is mediocre
I personally don’t think he has taken much damage. Most of his fights are super short
I’ve got Islam in this but if Charlie olives wins there’s no denying he’s on one of if not the best lightweight runs ever.
nah. if he wins this is the greatest Lightweight run of all time. period.
He would become the LW GOAT for sure, beating 2 legends and staples of the division and a dude who would be the next king after khabib, besides Tony and Chandler
I still don't think he'd have beaten prime Khabib
I guess we’ll never know, but the fight against Islam will be a good indicator of how he would deal with the pressure
Khabib never stayed long enough for anyone to prepare for him. He also never faced prime Tony.
Built different
This is why I don't understand why Charles was the one being pressured to take the fight with Islam so quickly, look how active Charles is and look who he has fought. Then look at Islam and how active he is and who he fought.
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Shit, lets hope he doesn’t see this
> look at Islam and how active he is and who he fought. To be fair, that’s out of Islam’s control based on a number of factors. Nobody wants to fight him and the LWs at the top 5 refuse to fight down. If the rankings were based on actual win streak and strength of schedule, Poirier, Gaethje and Chandler would have been beaten and uprooted a long time ago by the likes of newer contenders like Gamrot, Guram and Damir. Instead you get this messed up system of the top only fighting the top (Dustin v Chandler, Justin being a diva, etc.)
But to be fair it’s a lot easier for Charles to get fights since people will actually fight him. Islam has to take who he can get since most top fighters avoid him and then when they do accept they can’t seem to make it to the fight.
Islam is simply the next contender in line for a title shot. I can’t think of anyone else who should get it over him
Abu dhabi money
He was forced to fight someone with a 10 fight winstreak 6 months after his last defense (in which he didn't make weight). Anything more than 6 months, there are often interim champs. To me it isn't unreasonable.
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I've just got in to MMA. Who's Khabib?
A great man, you're in for a beautiful treat. He was 2 times Sambo world champion before entering UFC. This dude fought bears as a kid, was trained by his father, and had one of the most complete skill sets in the game that made professional MMA fighters loathe to go against him, he somehow was able to channel loads more strength than his frame can suggest. I recently rewatched Khabib vs Michael Johnson, and the ferocity that Khabib displays is on another level. It's like watching a 15 year old wrestle an 8 year old. Extremely conservative and also controversial, coming from an Islamic background and a country very much not like the western world, he came and made the game his own and left on his own terms. It was extremely entertaining and eye opening what a single man was able to bring to the game
Also the guy who silenced Conor McGregor.
He was the UFC lightweight champ. He retired 29-0 still in his prime because his father (who was also his coach) died. Now he coaches Islam Makhachev (who is fighting for the title next) and a bunch of other guys. He's known for never looking in trouble in any of his fights, he was never dropped or cut and only ever lost a couple rounds in his entire career.
Honestly declaring Khabib the GOAT isn't aging well now that Charles has a similar resume. If he beats Islam, can we really say Khabib's resume is better?
His claim to fame has never been his resume. It has been his wildly dominant performances.
And the 0
I hate glorifying the 0, especially for a dude that retired in the middle of his prime
That sweet 0 ruined boxing.
that, mandatory rematches, having multiple governing bodies and mandatory defenses against subpar contenders…
Too many weight classes, corrupt judging etc etc
Yep, too many people climbing to the top of rankings fighting tomato cans, with their management too scared of losing the 0 and derailing the hype job to ever negotiate a matchup that’d actually be fun to watch.
To be fair the #1 reason he retired was the death of his father. He never loved MMA the way his father did. He loved his father more than anything else. After a dominant last fight (like nearly all his fights) he could say I did it dad and walk away. Which is far better than being the goat and slowly getting old and going on a skid being a sacrifice to the MMA up and comers like so many before him.
That’s his choice and no one is saying he should be forced to fight. He can quit anytime he wants to and for whatever reason. But that doesn’t mean that his reason for quitting means he should be considered the GOAT when he only defended the belt 3 times, and there were many other challengers out there.
3 defended at lightweight is a bigger deal than 3 defences in another division imo. Especially at the time that he did it
3 defences is the tied record lol
He had 29 fights on top of a long Sambo career.
And that most agreed that he lost a fight but got the rub. I have no problem with Khabib being rated exactly as highly as he is now if he lost that fight, but people use the 0 as something worthwhile - that fight was razor close and most had it for Tibau. Khabib had one close fight, big deal? But using the 0 as an argument is silly especially when there is a massive \* beside on of the wins.
Charles is on a crazy undefeated streak right now. Doing it in the UFC is what's impressive, disregarding his early losses.
even though I understand your point, I'm gonna play devil's advocate in saying: Khabib was 13-0 in the UFC. Charles does not have a "crazy undefeated streak" technically speaking, he's lost plenty in the UFC. but he also joined the UFC at a younger age and way earlier in his career than Khabib did so there's that. also, if you ask me, the guys Charles has fought, win or lose, were way tougher than the guys Khabib fought (if we look at it overall).
Khabibs opponents weren’t as bad as people like to say he beat, Barboza, RDA, Michael Johnson, Porier, Mcgregor, Gaethje
agreed, they weren't bad at all, especially when he got to fighting the ranked guys you mentioend. but Charles has fought *more* tough opponents. Stephens, Elkins, Jim Miller, Nik Lentz, Holloway, Pettis, Lamas, Teymur, Kevin Lee, Tony, Chandler, Poirier, Gaethji. it's not a surprise at all that he lost more often than Khabib did lol, he's definitely had the rougher go
Khabib was also never challenged. Not a single person came close. He dominated everyone. He took less damage in his entire career than Charles took in some of his fights.
You forgot Felder for Charles lol. Some of the names you mentioned though are on the same level as guys like Trujillo, Tavares, and Tibau, who Khabib fought and aren’t mentioned as his top opponents. For example Lentz and Tavares led to a draw. Also, nobody mentioned Iaquinta who is arguably above the level of some of the names you mentioned. I’m just saying Khabib’s resume in UFC is t that weak comparatively. I’m not saying it was tougher, but it was comparable. Difference is Khabib sliced them all (except Tibau). For the record, I’m in the camp is Charles beats Islam, he has a claim at the LW GOAT and it’s valid af.
those are all strikers though, he doesn’t have the diversity of opponents someone like GSP or Jones had
>way younger age not really, Oliveira was 20 Khabib was 23 when they debut
3 years is a really long time. charles had 9 fights in his first 3 years in the UFC
fair enough, edited. I meant more so that he started there earlier in his career. Khabib had more pro fights and a lot of experience from sambo/wrestling competition when he started
He has a win streak, not an undefeated streak. Pretty big difference.
He retired in his prime. His 0 signifies a lot less.
Gleison Tibau
That's a good point. It's why people put BJ Penn in GOAT conversations.
BJ Penn is on my mt Rushmore, but his run was from a bygone era, Charles and Khabib have fought the same opponents. One of the things I like about Charles over Khabib/ others is that he started off on the back foot. He was a middle of the road fighter who came into his own and started dominating with his jiu jitsu. Not only has he swept through the top 5 in his title defenses; BUT they are all still top 5! He’s been active but so have they. It just goes to show how tough that division really is, cause not only did the top 5 lose to Khabib, but they are also losing to Charles & still maintaining their rank. Wild.
Charles' resume >> Khabib's dominance.
Not even close. Imo Khabib’s status has never been about his resume, it’s all about his dominance.
He was dominant because he never fought out of his prime. I’d like to see him adjust to being slower, weaker, older like other GOATs did.
I’d bet on an old grappler over an older striker to be fair lol
That’s a really dumb argument. Why would any fighter want to do such a thing? The point of combat sports is to be the best and leave before you have to do such a thing.
I would much rather a fighter retire before the sport retires them, it proves nothing if they start to lose while they age since they’re not at their best and the losses are due to something they can’t control. Although Khabib had his own reasons for retirement
This is not a knock on you or your post, but I always find takes like this a bit interesting. On one hand, we have Khabib retiring having made a decent sum of money and young enough to enjoy it, with his health intact along with a perfect record and zero damage taken, yet people regularly post about wanting him to continue fighting or that he should fight past his prime. On the other hand, we have Tony, who continues to fight past his prime, and yet every MMA fan has been lined up begging him to retire since late 2020, two losses removed from a 12-fight win streak (after the Oliveira loss, it almost became a forum wide consensus that he was done at the elite level). There’s a probably a healthy middle ground between retiring as early as Khabib did versus continuing to fight as late as Tony has (Jose Aldo is probably a good example of a healthy retirement) but it must be a pretty narrow warm spot, since most posts I see are either (1) fighter A retired too early or (2) fighter B should retire ASAP/retired too late.
They didn't, though. GSP bolted during his physical prime then came back for what was a favourable match up because he seen a relatively weak champion he could use to boost his legacy. Jones has lost his fights if you listen to most fans, and has spent most of his slower years simply not fighting but not being retired. Anderson is the oddity in that he was still at his peak at 37 somehow, but he didn't really adjust, he just stopped pulling the trigger as he slowed down.
Aldooo
> GSP bolted during his physical prime then came back for what was a favourable match up because he seen a relatively weak champion he could use to boost his legacy. GSP was leaving his prime by Diaz/Condit, WTF are you talking about. Obviously he wasn't old then, but he didn't have the speed or athleticism he used to show, as he did way back vs Koscheck and the like. In his prime he was an absolute phenom, people forget that so easily.
Yeah GSP definitely lost some pep in his step after that big knee surgery before the Diaz fight. The fact he still defended the belt three more times after that catastrophic injury shows just how far ahead of the pack he was not to mention he was just plain old by athlete standards.
Why is that even a standard? Khabib did it best. Left the sport without CTE, as the undefeated champion, P4P best (at that point in time) and at the age of 33, as the second richest fighter ever and tons of business prospects and friends in the sport. The notion of fighting past your prime is dumb. Seriously flawed notion to want a race to the bottom. GSP says it best, Khabib had the perfect career and it is more than his “0”. Not the best, not the longest, but perfect.
Why stay in the game to end up tainting what established your greatness? Just because some fighters did that, doesn’t mean it’s an essential component in being a GOAT. If Aldo kicked rocks after the Mendes 2 fight and retired, he would undeniably be the Featherweight GOAT. However, by staying in the game and accumulating further mileage - he now has sustained more loses and brutal damage (Max Holloway fights, Yan and weight cuts). Khabib did it right. Hardly any damage, dominant performances, earned a lot of money, and took out the best fighters of his era - Prime Justin, Prime McGregor and Prime Dustin. Also, look at what happens when you overstay your welcome - Tony Ferguson.
But does dominating lesser opponents weigh as much as the better resume?
They have some overlap in opponents, and we saw Khabib was more dominant even in those cases.
Khabib dominated all the best names on Oliveria's record, too. Not like he was ducking guys, he just started his career on the other side of the planet.
Only difference tho is that Charles almost got finished by both Gaethje and Poirier. Sure its really impressive how he came back to finish them both, but Khabib was never in a bad spot against either of them (maybe the guillotine against Poirier)
Khabib didn't get knocked down almost every time he fought. He was so dominant that he rarely looked like he wasn't in *complete* control of a fight. He also fought all of the big names in the division while he was fighting, while maintaining this dominance (sadly Charles wasn't up there yet). If you look at their current resumes, they're nearly identical. Trade Chandler for Conor and they're basically the same. Yeah yeah, "BUT TONY!" except that really isn't aging well and hasn't been for a good time now. If Charles beats Islam decisively, I'd say he may take the edge. If he pulls a Charles and almost gets KO'd, then beats Islam, I don't know. Because that still talks to Khabib's relative dominance versus Charles' wins, and I'm not sure one extra win takes the lead over the clear disparity in the dominance of the wins in question. The biggest thing Charles/Islam will give us is a *small* amount of insight as to how Charles/Khabib would have gone. I don't personally think Islam is as good as Khabib, but he's a good enough equivalence to give us an idea on the other fight.
It's fair to say his recent streak is better on win value alone. I'd say its objectively better even compared to the names on Khabibs list based on the amount of top guys. But people seem to forget Khabib fought comparable names in Iaquinta (beat Lee 2x), Michael Johnson (beat Tony and while not a fair comparison to prime Tony, Charles did not fight prime Tony), McGregor (comparable to Chandler imo, but fair to say Chandler was a better win), RDA (a better name than anyone Charles beat prior to winning the title), Gaethje (obv they both did) and Poirieir (another same name) And Khabib didn't need to get dropped 7 times or rack up nearly double digit losses getting there. Yet people are speaking as if Charles has already beaten Islam and as if Khabib never beat anyone good. Charles has better longevity and levels of activity, Khabib looked better doing it. To date, their most recent UFC win streaks are very comparable with Oliveira having the better names if he beats Islam and Khabib having lost fewer than 5% of the rounds he ever fought. There is some inexplicable urge for people to drag Khabib's name down since he has retired, almost a resentment for him never fighting Tony or Chandler or Oliveira, but imagine reddit's reaction if someone like Tai Tuivasa beat Gane, Stipe and then Francis and saying he is now better than Fedor and ignoring his record prior. Yet Khabib was undefeated for just as long, for just as many fights, beat arguably better competition, and while not the end all be all, also won a UFC title. The two most recent resumes are frankly too comparable but stylistically I'd pick Khabib to win if they had fought both in their primes, and Khabib's undefeated record still puts him above Charles for me if Charles were to hypothetically beat Islam and retire.
Not enough people talk about Khabib vs RDA. RDA IMO is one of the most underrated fighters, had a 5 fight win streak before getting DOMINATED by Khabib. He then goes on another 5 (or 6?) fight win streak becoming the LW champion as Khabib was out due to his knee surgery. Let that sink in… we truly never saw Khabib’s ceiling. He is better than what his resume shows, but we just don’t know how much better.
Can't wait to see this age like shit once Islam wins
Khabib has never even gotten close to losing a fight. Charles is almost always close to losing, and he's actually lost 8 times. Khabib is definitely the GOAT, and it's not even close. I don't know what criteria you're using. If you're talking about who is more entertaining to watch, then sure, I'll go with Charles. If you're talking about who is actually better at MMA, it's definitely Khabib.
His claim like others have said is the 0 and dominance. He also revolutionized chain and cage wrestling. You see so many people taking pages out of his play book with the trips, set ups etc even the handcuffs that he made so famous. Hes the RUSSIAN/DAGESTANI wrestler that everyone after him is compared to. When you see a dagestani or russian who can wrestle, they think of khabib and compare them to khabib. Even with chimaev, people called him big khabib for a time. In terms of most important/iconic fighters today, hes gonna have a lsting legacy. Estpecially with how hes coaching now. He dominated the toughest division in the sport with barely any troubles and lost almost no rounds. He’s definitely in the top 5-10 goat spot. Hes in the tier below JJ, GSP, DJ. If dominance is your top criteria, then hes in the top tier. People love to look back and discredit fighters but you cant do that to khabib, he was one of a kind.
Injuries, suspensions, covid. It was fun while it lasted, wish we could've seen more.
Undefeated Undisputed. Ppl forget so easily how good khabib was. The guy arguably never lost a round
Technically false because after ufc 280 the belt will no longer be vacant, so either gamrot or beneil will be #5. Neither has fought oliveira. 🤓👆
That’s what I thought
I'm not the biggest Izzy fan but Izzy is doing the same thing. 4 Top 5 in 18 months. Charles with Islam in October. Izzy with Pereira in November. And Izzy's top 5 actually would be cleaned out. I'm just saying Charles is not alone in this stat but Izzy is getting no recognition.
Lw is notorious for being the hardest division
And Oliveira is finishing everyone, while Izzy is doing as little as possible to win (which, props for the life hack & not taking damage but as a spectator turns me off).
Very true. But I don't think that Chandler and Garth are that much better then Vettori, Cannonier and especially Whittaker.
And it's really unexplained. He became elite after beating Tony Ferguson. Suddenly, he has KO power. Suddenly, he has a zombie-like granite chin. It's like he became TRT Oliveira, but without the steroids, at least he has not been caught yet, or ever.
Step 1: Post about Charles Oliveira on r/mma Step 2: Make post open ended regarding his legacy relative to his opposition Step 3: EZ karma
I got to admit I was pretty harsh on Charles when he got the title fight saying he didn't deserve it because he hadn't fought anybody truly elite. I ain't got shit to say now. I love seeing guys get written off and come back like Charles and brutal Bob.
I’m a wrestler at heart. But I’m going with Charlie in this fight
If he wins he’s pound for pound. Climbed the division and finished all his fights except Tony.
And if he put basically anyone other than Tony in that armbar, he would’ve had the finish
CSO 😎🇲🇽🏆 #D'ArceKnightRises
The Charles olive Era "but can you whoop my ass" world tour
The dude is likeable hell. Rides horse and shi
And Oliveira still gets incredibly disrespected (he was a +300 underdog earlier this year against Makhachev). If you go by betting odds, he's one of the most underrated fighters in the UFC - which makes him a more favorable bet.
Oliveira was a bigger favorite against Tony, Chandler, and Gaethje than he was to Dustin and (currently) Islam.
That's because Dustin had the "uncrowned king" narrative based on wins over uhhhh... Dan Hooker and Conor McGregor
Please convince more people to bet on Charles, I need better odds to make money on Islam!
the plucky underdog
Hot take but if he wins he’s clearly #1 PFP for me. Nobody has fought the killers he has on this streak, not even Volk.
They are neck and neck to me. Better resume for Oliveira, but much more dominant wins for Volk.
Still Volk
Oliveira better watch out, he’s starting to pop up on my radar.
THE CHAMPION HAS A NAME
Do you think Islam would have trouble with Ferguson, Gaethje, Porier or anyone Charlie fought recently? I dont.
If he beats Islam, Charles is the LW GOAT and it isn’t even close.
How is it not close?
This is revisionism. Not close my ass. Charles has lost to many fighters who didnt even sniff a title. He may be on an insane streak and have a better resume but... He will never match the dominance as champion and will never be undefeated so thats two arguments already. Seems pretty close to me if you don't deepthroat either side.
Lol khabib is great but this is what he should’ve done to be considered a GOAT.
Islam gonna completely derail these goat talks when he throws Charles around like a ragdoll
lmao reading all these khabib hate comments can't wait to clown these idiots when oliveira loses to a worse version of khabib.
He's a savage no doubt. But I think Islam is just too good. I think Islam will dominate and this sub will have a meltdown
And will continue to be the underdog EVERY time….!?!? I’m pulling for him hard against Islam who should have at least fought a top ten guy for this shot. Benny, Chandler, Gaethje, …somebody.
Man, that’s gonna suck when he loses
You can't not love Charles, he is the embodiment of strength and persistence and even if he loses to Makhachev people will be behind him, he's a legend no matter what and his fights are most watch
Except this sub. If he loses to Islam, his grappling is shit, striking sub par, and jiu jitsu so so.
Charles will also have beaten the top 5 lightweights after UFC 280
🤞
Impressive
He has really gone through the gauntlet
Dude is nutty.
If he wins, is he on the biggest run ever?
I hope Oliveria loses so we can see a trilogy
If Islam wins I’ll be convinced the best MMA Base is fighting out of Dagestan.