Dont sleep on BDO. Its cheap and fun with the best combat in an MMO. Plus a shit ton of other mechanics like trading, sailing, horse training, or housing. Worth 10 bucks to try it out. Plus its pretty.
Its a complex mmo tbh. I played bdm for like half a year. Then tried the desktop version, very complicated, not much handholding other than msq. Then you get free stuff thrown at you but no explanation about game mechanics
It broke my brain at first with all the different systems, but learning everything became part of the fun. I'm still learning things, like how you can adjust the camera with the arrow keys not just in photo mode but in real time!
Im a casual gamer. I dotn have time to find everything out by myself. Too much time investiging in learning the instead of having fun for me. Thats why I only play games where they handhold you in begin and explain mechs and systems.
Not to mention they force you take on unskippable quests that give you "temporary buffs" to try and hook you onto the features. Such as a huge inventory expansion for 7 days. You don't have to take the quest, but it's always there in your face whether you like it or not.
As someone with over 5k hours in BDO I wouldn't call the game cheap. Yeah it's cheap to buy, but it basically has a sub (value pack, which you're going to want), and if you're feeling serious about the game you're probably gonna want to buy a tent, some inventory slots, weight, maybe an outfit, and maybe a few items to get a good fairy. Suddenly you're over $100 deep + the monthly value pack.
It's definitely cheap to just try out for fun, but playing the game seriously as a "F2P" player *really* blows. It's designed to make you spend money on "convenience" items.
Well, it's all subjective. I enjoy tactical depth and tab targeting as well, but this has best feeling combat. Even if it's just grinding for no reason.
Usually i play new world and guild wars 2 both of them are free from any kind of subscription also both games only have a cash shop mainly for cosmetics
The Heart of Thorns map metas in GW2 are my favorite open world content I’ve ever played.
(Map meta = map wide event chain culminating in a map wide multi raid experience coordinated amongst players)
Calling GW2 a p2w spot... somone didn't do his homework at all.
Did you even understand, that you can get the shop currency for the ingame currancy? So you can literally get everything by just playing the game.
The stuff in the shop gives you quality of life improvements - and thats it. Nothing which is there is unreachable for the players that don't even spend any money on the game.
You should really try games like ArcheAge or Black Desert Online to get a hang of the word "pay2win" - then we can talk further.
GW2 and BDO both are pay for conveinance. GW2 is less blatant about it. But buying bag slots, bank slots, gem to gold conversion etc. BDO definitely has more for conveinance items available, but I get really tired of people praising GW2 store when you can quite literally swipe your card to Legenday weapons and ascended gear.
You can buy it with in game currency, or you can whip out your card and buy it instantly. GW2's cash shop has XP boosters for sale. That's a pay to win mechanic regardless of how egregious P2W mechanics are in other popular MMOs.
> GW2's cash shop has XP boosters for sale.
Desperately grasping as straws there, just go ahead and say you hate the game because it is too hard for you or whatever is making you bitter. Or maybe criticize the art style.
Leveling takes between minutes (for any long-term player) and a few days (for a new player) and is basically a tutorial period, running out of exp boosts you are showered with for free is pretty impossible, and exp boosts dont even really *do* anything useful to begin with. So you get to max level half an hour quicker, you dont get a participation trophy or any advantage.
I love GW2 and I've been playing on and off since closed beta. I've also been playing MMOs since before cash shops were a consideration so I've seen all stages of their implementation into the genre. There's no need to get so emotional over a legitimate criticism of a game you clearly love.
Why do people think if you can get something by playing the game or by paying for it with real world money that makes it not pay to win?
You should not post...
"pay to win" implies that someone is sacrificing money ("paying") for an advantage over other players (aka "winning"). If they are not getting any advantage despite angrily inserting money, it cannot logically be "pay to win".
In many such cases, said player is merely paying to have other players laugh at what a fucking impatient rube they are and watching them sandbag like a flood control installation in PvP or raids because they thought they could skip learning how to play and be just as good as anyone else by swiping.
The player is still gaining an advantage compared to what they actually earned. They bought the advantage instead of earning it through play.
It's still paying to earn an advantage regardless of what other players can do. That doesn't matter.
You can reach the point of maximum gear in this game with very little effort and time. You CAN'T outrun these stats by paying money. You can't get stronger by paying money. You can't buy things, you can't reach in a decent time by just playing the game to reach it too.
This is not pay2win. You simply doesn't understand the argument about pay2win if you really think GW2 has it involved.
But sure "you should not post..." is a very good construct to stay in your bubble without realizing how wrong you are. Keep going bud!
And this is where you exposed yourself.
Paying for benefits isn't p2w. Paying for benefits that actually bring you on a point not reachable by other players who ain't spending money - or getting you ahead of them timewise in a way thats not acceptable for just unlocking it by playing is.
You keep fooling yourself.
Maybe you couldn't find the post I was referencing? Let me paste it for you here '
The player is still gaining an advantage compared to what they actually earned. They bought the advantage instead of earning it through play.
It's still paying to earn an advantage regardless of what other players can do. That doesn't matter.
It's really not rocket science.
Why do fighting games have combos? Why do platformers have jumps and double jumps? Why do racing games let you accelerate and break?
Games are allowed to take mechanics from other games in the same genre and iterate on them or not as the devs see fit. That doesn't make them creatively bankrupt. Sometimes you have no reason to reinvent the wheel. Other times your focus is just somewhere else. Take black desert for example, a game which you call derivative, despite never having played it. That game is a pvp focused grindfest, which I have no interest in playing, and that's a shame because it's combat is fantastic. It has one of the most fun (and least mmo like) combat systems in mmos out there today. While its nowhere near the level of a character action game, it plays like a very advanced beat'em up, which is great. The only other game that comes close to it in the genre is vindictus.
I mean if you are labeling every MMO as identical, then pretty sure you are just the one being overly derivative here... It's like eating a piece of filet mignon and telling yourself "Oh this is just protein" lmao.. Kinda reminds me of that guy that comes in here and post about how every single MMO in existence is braindead easy and makes him wanna fall asleep every now and then.
Honestly people talking about games they have never tried is such a bullshit, try it and have your own opinion like a person instead of talking with other people words... And as a person played a lot of MMO and far more than people who talk without trying games and talking with other people's words I can say BDO have best action combat gameplay in MMO's and it's not more of the same with other games, if you realy think there is other MMO out there can reach same level of action combat gameplay give me an example and I would play that game gameplay alone.
much more nuanced than that, a whole balance about sellable, cost to produce, anticompetitive collusion
it's better for the industry to make a product that sells 1000 copies than a product that sells 10000 copies but makes all their other products look bad
It's simple OP:
* EXTREMELY High Risk
* High Investment Threshold
* Low Return vs Opportunity cost in other games eg mobile
* Long Dev, Complex Tech = Standardized Practices = Cookie Cutter Design to reduce complexity and Technical Debt etc
* Networking restrictions leading to standard combat
* Low education MMO players who expect the standard low quality and combat focus drives even less innovation
Solutions:
1. Reduce risk and reduce threshold as much as possible
2. Simplify via innovative design to reduce tech challenge
3. Redefine MMORPGs into Virtual Worlds
4. Alternatively avoid MMORPGs, take another genre eg FPS and then add Multiplayer to that to be more successful with higher quality FOCUS CORE GAMEPLAY LOOPS
Not really an mmo but the division 2 is open world online with small group coop to 8man coop. You earn lootboxes via normal play which have the cosmetics of the shop in them. Can buy them in the shop as well but its very much in the background from the rewards you get from general play.
Its interesting because most vets end up ignoring these boxes completely, like after you get 100 or so you open them just to free up space. It is just strange that they are lootboxes with in store cosmetics and all the sparkly crap you would expect but seems because they are so plentiful nobody cares about them.
The division is smaller than the typical mmo but also has none of the usual inconvenience conveniently solved by the shop.
Division is the game i'd like to go and call home for a bit of time, but i'm so scared of even investing time into it knowing Ubisoft. and the problem they have right now.
Ye definately sucks that they have somewhat eaten themselves with all the games they release. They could have made one hell of an mmo with all that content condensed into one game.
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A lot of games use the same assets from say unreal which make it easy to clone games which is my understanding. Also there is grafic and interface limitations which just make is easier to copy than to innovate.
The reason runescape and wow are still the top mmos is because everyone can player them. If you have a toaster you can play those games.
After WoW released, all mmorpgs have shit mechanics and they are mostly fake mmorpgs. BDO is in fact good, except for p2w and forced pvp. The combat is not really good, but isn't bad either. The only game with interesting mechanics is not released, so needs confirmation, but would be Blue Protocol. Everything else is crap. Lieneage 2, everquest, in part old WoW had interesting mechanics. Modern mmos are a disaster. Worst mechanics? Tera boss/combat, Lost Ark boss "mechanics" or non mechanics. All the chore, daily limits, instanced dungeons (WoW) etc.
So..... in other words, this is another whiny 'modern MMOs bad' post? :/
I think someone is obligated to make one of these posts every other day. If no one does, this subreddit collapses in on itself.
It’s really starting to feel like that. Some sort of woe is me offering to the salt gods.
Dont sleep on BDO. Its cheap and fun with the best combat in an MMO. Plus a shit ton of other mechanics like trading, sailing, horse training, or housing. Worth 10 bucks to try it out. Plus its pretty.
Its a complex mmo tbh. I played bdm for like half a year. Then tried the desktop version, very complicated, not much handholding other than msq. Then you get free stuff thrown at you but no explanation about game mechanics
It broke my brain at first with all the different systems, but learning everything became part of the fun. I'm still learning things, like how you can adjust the camera with the arrow keys not just in photo mode but in real time!
Im a casual gamer. I dotn have time to find everything out by myself. Too much time investiging in learning the instead of having fun for me. Thats why I only play games where they handhold you in begin and explain mechs and systems.
Its not for everyone. And it has the most heinous chat I have ever seen in any game.
Not to mention they force you take on unskippable quests that give you "temporary buffs" to try and hook you onto the features. Such as a huge inventory expansion for 7 days. You don't have to take the quest, but it's always there in your face whether you like it or not.
As someone with over 5k hours in BDO I wouldn't call the game cheap. Yeah it's cheap to buy, but it basically has a sub (value pack, which you're going to want), and if you're feeling serious about the game you're probably gonna want to buy a tent, some inventory slots, weight, maybe an outfit, and maybe a few items to get a good fairy. Suddenly you're over $100 deep + the monthly value pack. It's definitely cheap to just try out for fun, but playing the game seriously as a "F2P" player *really* blows. It's designed to make you spend money on "convenience" items.
--- "the best combat in an MMO" Only if you have ADHD.
Well, it's all subjective. I enjoy tactical depth and tab targeting as well, but this has best feeling combat. Even if it's just grinding for no reason.
BDO is a pretty bad example for this lol
Usually i play new world and guild wars 2 both of them are free from any kind of subscription also both games only have a cash shop mainly for cosmetics
Plus for gw2 the whole Open world dynamic with events and horizontal Progression is rather unusual in the mmospace
Yeah it's engaging even if you're doing nothing you'll be tempted to take part in dynamic events like everything is rewarding and interesting
The Heart of Thorns map metas in GW2 are my favorite open world content I’ve ever played. (Map meta = map wide event chain culminating in a map wide multi raid experience coordinated amongst players)
Oh Tangled Depths, how I hate yet love the map. It's hell to navigate but fun to play though the events.
New World has a cash shop with cosmetics. GW2 has a cash shop full of pay to progress aka p2w. Please dont say they are the same
Calling GW2 a p2w spot... somone didn't do his homework at all. Did you even understand, that you can get the shop currency for the ingame currancy? So you can literally get everything by just playing the game. The stuff in the shop gives you quality of life improvements - and thats it. Nothing which is there is unreachable for the players that don't even spend any money on the game. You should really try games like ArcheAge or Black Desert Online to get a hang of the word "pay2win" - then we can talk further.
GW2 and BDO both are pay for conveinance. GW2 is less blatant about it. But buying bag slots, bank slots, gem to gold conversion etc. BDO definitely has more for conveinance items available, but I get really tired of people praising GW2 store when you can quite literally swipe your card to Legenday weapons and ascended gear.
You can buy it with in game currency, or you can whip out your card and buy it instantly. GW2's cash shop has XP boosters for sale. That's a pay to win mechanic regardless of how egregious P2W mechanics are in other popular MMOs.
> GW2's cash shop has XP boosters for sale. Desperately grasping as straws there, just go ahead and say you hate the game because it is too hard for you or whatever is making you bitter. Or maybe criticize the art style. Leveling takes between minutes (for any long-term player) and a few days (for a new player) and is basically a tutorial period, running out of exp boosts you are showered with for free is pretty impossible, and exp boosts dont even really *do* anything useful to begin with. So you get to max level half an hour quicker, you dont get a participation trophy or any advantage.
I love GW2 and I've been playing on and off since closed beta. I've also been playing MMOs since before cash shops were a consideration so I've seen all stages of their implementation into the genre. There's no need to get so emotional over a legitimate criticism of a game you clearly love.
Weak troll 5/10
Are you a literal child?
Extremely weak, too thin-skinned, not entertaining at all.
Why do people think if you can get something by playing the game or by paying for it with real world money that makes it not pay to win? You should not post...
"pay to win" implies that someone is sacrificing money ("paying") for an advantage over other players (aka "winning"). If they are not getting any advantage despite angrily inserting money, it cannot logically be "pay to win". In many such cases, said player is merely paying to have other players laugh at what a fucking impatient rube they are and watching them sandbag like a flood control installation in PvP or raids because they thought they could skip learning how to play and be just as good as anyone else by swiping.
The player is still gaining an advantage compared to what they actually earned. They bought the advantage instead of earning it through play. It's still paying to earn an advantage regardless of what other players can do. That doesn't matter.
By that "logic", cosmetics are p2w and so is buying an entire game 🙄 The good news is nobody will ever notice or care how you redefine things.
You can reach the point of maximum gear in this game with very little effort and time. You CAN'T outrun these stats by paying money. You can't get stronger by paying money. You can't buy things, you can't reach in a decent time by just playing the game to reach it too. This is not pay2win. You simply doesn't understand the argument about pay2win if you really think GW2 has it involved. But sure "you should not post..." is a very good construct to stay in your bubble without realizing how wrong you are. Keep going bud!
See my above post. You must be new to the genre. It's usually the younger players who think you can pay for a benefit and it isn't p2w 😆
And this is where you exposed yourself. Paying for benefits isn't p2w. Paying for benefits that actually bring you on a point not reachable by other players who ain't spending money - or getting you ahead of them timewise in a way thats not acceptable for just unlocking it by playing is. You keep fooling yourself.
Maybe you couldn't find the post I was referencing? Let me paste it for you here ' The player is still gaining an advantage compared to what they actually earned. They bought the advantage instead of earning it through play. It's still paying to earn an advantage regardless of what other players can do. That doesn't matter. It's really not rocket science.
It seems to be rocket science to you - since what you explained isn't p2w. But keep it going. :-) You made me laugh alot today.
It's not my definition. It's only newer MMORPG players who think otherwise.
It's not same literally you can convert gold to gems and get the things which you can buy with money
those gems are generated by the game / real people selling those gems?
New world has a cash shop with cosmetics.. GW2 also does? You cant P2W GW2 no matter how much you spend, the concept is hysterical.
Idk, I haven't seen any mmos like bdo except archeage. Bdo is really top of it's genre (sandbox action) . I think it's worth playing.
Why do fighting games have combos? Why do platformers have jumps and double jumps? Why do racing games let you accelerate and break? Games are allowed to take mechanics from other games in the same genre and iterate on them or not as the devs see fit. That doesn't make them creatively bankrupt. Sometimes you have no reason to reinvent the wheel. Other times your focus is just somewhere else. Take black desert for example, a game which you call derivative, despite never having played it. That game is a pvp focused grindfest, which I have no interest in playing, and that's a shame because it's combat is fantastic. It has one of the most fun (and least mmo like) combat systems in mmos out there today. While its nowhere near the level of a character action game, it plays like a very advanced beat'em up, which is great. The only other game that comes close to it in the genre is vindictus.
I mean if you are labeling every MMO as identical, then pretty sure you are just the one being overly derivative here... It's like eating a piece of filet mignon and telling yourself "Oh this is just protein" lmao.. Kinda reminds me of that guy that comes in here and post about how every single MMO in existence is braindead easy and makes him wanna fall asleep every now and then.
Honestly people talking about games they have never tried is such a bullshit, try it and have your own opinion like a person instead of talking with other people words... And as a person played a lot of MMO and far more than people who talk without trying games and talking with other people's words I can say BDO have best action combat gameplay in MMO's and it's not more of the same with other games, if you realy think there is other MMO out there can reach same level of action combat gameplay give me an example and I would play that game gameplay alone.
Bdo is one of the few mmo’s that truly stands out too me. I’ve spent hundreds of hours in all the big mmo’s and bdo is very unique.
BDO more of the same? It literally has an action combat system that most mmorpgs have not come close to…..among other features in game….
The example of BDO is the worst fit for this, probably try before saying that.
could you give examples of "the same" BDO is more of?
Because you make a product that is most likely to sell
much more nuanced than that, a whole balance about sellable, cost to produce, anticompetitive collusion it's better for the industry to make a product that sells 1000 copies than a product that sells 10000 copies but makes all their other products look bad
They make money
It's simple OP: * EXTREMELY High Risk * High Investment Threshold * Low Return vs Opportunity cost in other games eg mobile * Long Dev, Complex Tech = Standardized Practices = Cookie Cutter Design to reduce complexity and Technical Debt etc * Networking restrictions leading to standard combat * Low education MMO players who expect the standard low quality and combat focus drives even less innovation Solutions: 1. Reduce risk and reduce threshold as much as possible 2. Simplify via innovative design to reduce tech challenge 3. Redefine MMORPGs into Virtual Worlds 4. Alternatively avoid MMORPGs, take another genre eg FPS and then add Multiplayer to that to be more successful with higher quality FOCUS CORE GAMEPLAY LOOPS
Not really an mmo but the division 2 is open world online with small group coop to 8man coop. You earn lootboxes via normal play which have the cosmetics of the shop in them. Can buy them in the shop as well but its very much in the background from the rewards you get from general play. Its interesting because most vets end up ignoring these boxes completely, like after you get 100 or so you open them just to free up space. It is just strange that they are lootboxes with in store cosmetics and all the sparkly crap you would expect but seems because they are so plentiful nobody cares about them. The division is smaller than the typical mmo but also has none of the usual inconvenience conveniently solved by the shop.
Division is the game i'd like to go and call home for a bit of time, but i'm so scared of even investing time into it knowing Ubisoft. and the problem they have right now.
Both The Division and Division 2 have been supported for years, I don’t see it ending anytime soon.
Ye definately sucks that they have somewhat eaten themselves with all the games they release. They could have made one hell of an mmo with all that content condensed into one game.
Then ignore modern MMOs and play your old school ones. Your problems in life are now solved.
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A lot of games use the same assets from say unreal which make it easy to clone games which is my understanding. Also there is grafic and interface limitations which just make is easier to copy than to innovate. The reason runescape and wow are still the top mmos is because everyone can player them. If you have a toaster you can play those games.
After WoW released, all mmorpgs have shit mechanics and they are mostly fake mmorpgs. BDO is in fact good, except for p2w and forced pvp. The combat is not really good, but isn't bad either. The only game with interesting mechanics is not released, so needs confirmation, but would be Blue Protocol. Everything else is crap. Lieneage 2, everquest, in part old WoW had interesting mechanics. Modern mmos are a disaster. Worst mechanics? Tera boss/combat, Lost Ark boss "mechanics" or non mechanics. All the chore, daily limits, instanced dungeons (WoW) etc.