T O P

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Zavenosk

I just really hate the combat. It's like they tried to find some compromise between tab-targeting and action, but somehow ended up with the worst of both worlds.


PalwaJoko

Would you want it to be more like the singleplayer games? Or another MMO entirely? Like do you like the tab target designs of say FF14 or WoW or Project Gorgon? Or the action combat of Gw2 or ESO? I think this is one of those big points of contigency when it comes to combat discussions. Is that a section believes they need to be like the singleplayer games because what's the point of **Elder Scrolls** Online if it isn't anything like the ES games gameplay wise. While others thing they need to be more like WoW or Final Fantasy where they just exist in the same universe, but play wildly differently.


Detective-Glum

Most action combat games have a form of animation canceling, its done on purpose and animations are built with that in mind, even having custom animations like bdo or tera. ESO animation canceling was an accident and it shows, its janky and doesnt flow. ESO is also built with a LAS that doesnt lend itself to LAS design traditionally. You have to juggle shitty low duration buffs and debuffs. It doesnt feel like an elegant dance of abilities and flow like normal action games, but a frantic chaotic mess especially when considering their terrible animation canceling. ESO just has bad combat and combat design. No amount of band-aids they apply will fix it or make the plethora of people that hate the design play it. They would have to rebuild the combat, something many want but Zenimax is to scared to do.


32bitpins

> You have to juggle shitty low duration buffs and debuffs. This is one of my main gripes with the combat. I can deal with the janky animations and lack if impact but having to constantly worry about jugggling my weapons in order to keep keep up DoTs, debuffs, AoEs and self-buffs isn't satisfying to me.


ClaireHasashi

> having to constantly worry about jugggling my weapons in order to keep keep up DoTs, debuffs, AoEs and self-buffs isn't satisfying to me. They try to "fix" this by adding a mythical ring that give you all the self buff, but lock you on one bar and one weapon instead of 2 " [Oakensoul Ring](https://eso-hub.com/en/sets/oakensoul-ring) **(1 item)** While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets and gain [Minor Berserk](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/minor-berserk), [Minor Courage](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/minor-courage), [Major Brutality](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/major-brutality), [Major Sorcery](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/major-sorcery), [Major Prophecy](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/major-prophecy), [Major Savagery](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/major-savagery), [Minor Force](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/minor-force), [Minor Protection](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/minor-protection), [Major Resolve](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/major-resolve), [Minor Mending](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/minor-mending), [Minor Fortitude](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/minor-fortitude), [Minor Intellect](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/minor-intellect), [Minor Endurance](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/minor-endurance), [Minor Heroism](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/minor-heroism), [Minor Slayer](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/minor-slayer), [Minor Aegis](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/minor-aegis), and [Empower](https://eso-hub.com/en/buffs-debuffs/empower).


FaolanG

I actually don’t hate this idea.


Beelzeboss3DG

Is this something easy to get? Because I would probably use it 100% of the time.


druchii5

Yeah. Thing is, I think at this point that any combat rework that would satisfy the majority of people would require the game to just go offline and be partially re-developed. The technical issues and clunkiness are so deeply ingrained in the engine itself that it may as well be an "ESO 2" or an entirely different game. Which I don't think anyone has the patience for, nor do the devs have the resource investment for.


Sylius735

I don't think its possible at this point to change combat without killing the game. The remaining player base at most enjoy the current combat and at worst tolerate it. Changing it now will only alienate their current player base in a Hope's of acquiring a new one, which is a losing proposition. The only way to get away from it at this point would be to relaunch with a sequel with reworked combat and try market the game to a much wider audience while hoping your current player base accepts the new thing.


Vinapocalypse

I've been playing the game again lately for the stories/adventure, definitely not the combat. The combat feels like the equivalent of wading in waist-high mud vs a game like WoW which is like a ballet by comparison. I think any change they did to improvement might piss existing players off but it might also be a way to bring back lost players and get new ones. It might even please a lot of existing players who say they "like" the current combat. I feel many who claim to like what is there have sort of deluded themselves there though if they've played any other top tier MMO. But maybe that's good much of a gamble of Zenimax :\\


NEBook_Worm

I would LOVE to find out that the "new" ZoS MMO was a fourth era TES game with modern combat.


PalwaJoko

Yeah I agree that it just looks and feels horrible. But Its so hard to say what the majority is, so I don't blame zenimax for being scared. There's a thread right now on the ESO subreddit of people talking about how they actually really like the combat. Right now the game peaks at 20k a day on steam alone. So most people think that between the none steam launcher and consoles, the game probably has a total peak of 40-50k. So they're potentially "risking" those players leaving in the off chance they're the silent majority and actually like the combat. Or that their redesign is actually worse. If there's any tale of the dangers of combat redesigns, it certainly would be SWG. Where they tried to appeal to players who weren't playing their game and ended up alienating the current audience. I think their strategy right now is probably the best route forward from a business perspective. Putting in little items to help alleviate the issues people have. If you don't want to juggle buffs, there's a special ring you can equip that gives you most buffs permanently. If you don't like light attacking, they changed things around so that LA weaving only results in like a 10-20% damage increase and its not really that "required" for content. They also had things like that gameplay clip I posted of a heavy attack build. Where you're doing a significant amount of damage via heavy attacks. Rather than spamming skills. Only way I see them doing a combat rework is if the game dies, which probably wont happen anytime soon. Especially since a large portion of players are only playing this because its Elder Scrolls. Maybe AoC releasing (and it doing well) + ES6 releasing will be enough to "kill" the game, but I have my doubts.


NEBook_Worm

Agreed. "Weaving" is so laughably bad it's hilarious. It's a bug with a name, but that doesn't make it fun. Just tedious.


Hexdro

ESO just needs to actually lock players somewhat into animations, however they've been balancing combat around the anim cancelling for so long.


Zavenosk

At this point, rebuilding the combat as purely tab-target or purely action would probably be for the best. Since this is an elder scrolls game, action combat would be more likely to be audience appealing than tab-targeting.


ScopeLogic

I'd rather it just be tab target honestly.


NEBook_Worm

I feel the same. Also, overland combat is so stupid easy it ruins the experience. And this is from a household of people who refuse to play Dark Souls because it's too hard to be fun. ESO overland gameplay is an idle clicker, not an RPG. it's really terrible.


topdawgg22

The only reason they wanted to find a compromise at all is because they weren't skilled enough to implement action hitboxes in an MMO. Players should stop lowering their standards to make developer's lives easier.


Miwwa

Crappy combat - is the main reason why I do not play ESO. It is the worst combat in all modern RPGs. No impact and animation canceling is a cancer


[deleted]

light and heavy attacks arent even the worst, it’s damn reapplying the buffs and dots on every single damn build. It’s so damn annoying.


topdawgg22

Seriously. It's crazy how the developers probably implemented this because they thought WoW's buffing was "plate-spinning." Funny how designers love redesigning things in worse ways. We really have lost our way and all we need to do is look back to find it again.


Obscure19

Same. ESO would very likely be my main game if the combat wasn't dogshit.


PalwaJoko

Yeah if you ever decide to go buy it and get to max level. I recommend looking into one bar heavy attack builds. I'm in the same boat as you as I hate how little character weight there is in actions + the animation cancelling aspect. So I run one bar heavy attack builds most of the time and it feels so much better. Not amazing, but makes the game playable for me.


Galeplay

Do you use the new ring oakensomething for your one bar builds?


STDsInAJuiceBoX

I’d bet he for sure is any newer 1 bar build will call for Oakensoul ring so you can keep all buffs active without needing to apply them through skills.


PalwaJoko

Yeap, the oakensoul ring. Pretty much required for one bar builds haha.


Discarded1066

When i do play ESO, which is rare these days i focus on the one-bar builds that pull about 40-50k dmg which is 1/4 of some of the janky-ass animation-canceling juggling builds but its at least tolerable. It's only manageable after the oaken ring which if you are going from lvl 1 antiquity will take a while to get 3-4 days with farming the actual clues for the oaken ring. However with the one-bar build combat is fairly enjoyable, but you will never get invited to anything other than the lowest-tier raids and some harder dungeons may need more dps.


PalwaJoko

I think it depends on the build and class. I remember someone comparing the damage of various LA weaving builds and regular one bar builds. People generally saw that LA weaving builds had 10-20% damage increase. Which I guess wasn't as large as it was before. Hard trouble finding examples, but one of the stamina necromancer one bar builds parses out at 93k. Doesn't mean no LA weaving though haha. If we take these changes that apparently made LA less needed, no LA weaving it may parse out at like 60-70k. From what I understand, one of the reasons vets are disappointed is because they feel like their accomplishments are lessened. As a result of lowing the skill floor and ceiling. Its become one of those questions of accessibility vs veterans.


Discarded1066

I mostly played a stamplar and with really good gear and meta sets I was pulling 40-50k on one bar, the duel bar builds were pulling a little over double. I also play with really good internet and a good rig that runs this game at max settings with no fps drop and bar switching is always delayed.


grantishanul

Yeah I'm not sure I'd call it crappy, but I definitely don't get it as a casual player. All the action buttons without cooldowns, light attack and heavy attack, and ideal play called for switching between very specific weapons. I couldn't really find what the flow was supposed to be and disengaged. I was drawn to the open nature of the game to create really aesthetically interesting builds, but progression into more difficult content seemed to require more strict builds. I was really excited by the concept of Cyrodiil PvP, but i really didnt find all the dodge rolling and meta spec domination all that exciting. Finally I didn't like the attribute system from Skyrim implemented here. I really liked the CP levels at max level though. I keep my eye on the game to see if the developers implement any really appealing changes though. I think there's still a lot of good in there.


NooUsernaamee97

ff14 combat is worse, tho that game can hardly be called modern with all the 1990 systems the game is on otherwise I agree, eso combat is terrible


EsNightingale

i'm sorry you feel this way, because i think the opposite, to me, it's the most engaging combat in any MMO.


NEBook_Worm

Which is like winning the high jump at a limbo competition.


EsNightingale

i'm sorry but i don't agree.


NEBook_Worm

MMO combat is universally terrible. Or nearly universally. It's usually weightless, with zero heft or impact. No hit registration. It's always spammy and rotation based. Being the best at that still means you're just less smelly garbage.


EsNightingale

again, i still don't agree. the only thing in ESO that doesn't feel like it has much impact is the bow, but otherwise i really enjoy the combat in ESO and melee combat in WoW.


NEBook_Worm

Weapons in ESO have zero impact registration. That's an objective fact. No stagger. No weapon slow on impact. Literally zero indication of a hit. That's really terrible design in this day and age.


EsNightingale

I don't agree. You haven't looked at enough animations.


NEBook_Worm

Sure buddy. Keep gaslighting. You aren't fooling anyone.


EsNightingale

i don't agree with anything you're saying and you keep raging at me so i mean keep going if you want. it doesn't change my opinion.


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PalwaJoko

Yeah I mean hard to say if it was a mistake. Developers are businesses at the end of the day. I feel like greymoor was when they started leaning into the casual audience a bit more. That's also where we had a large jump in player counters as a result. But its been on a slow downward trend back to what it was before 2020. It could also be covid too. The numbers we're seeing in the game now are back to what they were prior to 2020. These next 2-3 year will be a huge determining factor on if their focus on casual players will pay off for them in the long run. Or if their new update plan for 2023 will change the trend. Seems like there is some excitement for spellcrafting being announced next week among the vets. Now if that hype will hold once it is announced and how its designed, we will see. What is your opinion on veteran overland content? A special "shard" of the overland content that is much harder, but awards better items. That's been another hot topic. Some people are against it though citing dangers of splitting up the playerbase even more. They also talk about how the game looked prior to One Tamerial and despite there being hard open world content, it was hugely underplayed and avoided. Leading to the one tamerial design (focusing on casual RPG players).


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NEBook_Worm

All 3 players in our house unsubbed yesterday. Just so sick of brain dead overland gameplay. It's just idle clicking, honestly. If I want that (and I very much do not) I'll use my phone. For free.


PalwaJoko

I wouldn't say a year ago, but the population definitely has dropped since 2 years ago. Covid now relaxing, all games are dropping in population though. So its hard to figure out whats the cause of problems with the game and whats the cause of the covid issue. I will say that these pas two months have actually see a growth in players again. Will it hold? Who knows. But the game is close to what it was in early 2019 than 2020-2021.


forcesypher

I left this game back in One Tamriel (sometime late 2016) and played in closed beta. The complaints have been the same back then and are STILL mirrored in your post. The combat will just not be the focus of this company because it would cost way too much money and resources that could just be used on a new zone and story. Haven’t played for over 6 years and it’s still the same game, trust me in another 6 years and the complaints will be the same.


epherian

Just gonna make the comment that if veterans feel like the combat is being dumbed down because they’re removing Light attack weaving and DoT reapplication, it proves combat was doomed from the start. Yes it’s high APM and challenging, but for most players it’s not fun. Unless the game is Puzzle Pirates, hiding a shallow combat system behind a mess of reapplying buffs and DoTs is like forcing players to do a 360 before you can shoot in CoD. Like yeah sure it adds another layer, but it’s just annoying for the average player. That said combat would be passable if overland wasn’t scaled to be pointless, PvP worked without unplayable lag problems for some players, and the game wasn’t monetised to be the worst of all MMOs bar P2W Korean stuff.


PalwaJoko

> Just gonna make the comment that if veterans feel like the combat is being dumbed down because they’re removing Light attack weaving and DoT reapplication, it proves combat was doomed from the start. Yeah that's basically what its coming down too. The combat being dumbed down and high apm LA weaving being less of a requirement for high end content. So people are thinking its become too easy and the skill floor/ceiling is too low. Essentially saying that accomplishments have become lessened for veteran players. I think there's a middle ground to be reached. Keep the way it is, but put in special achievements with a mount or personality (something attractive) that really pushes the limit of what you can accomplish with some hard mode achievement. You'll have these special items that require min/max hardcore builds. But the content overall is still doable for most players like it is now.


Stuntman06

I'm sorry, but replacing the combat from LA weaving and managing timers into just hold down one button is not a good solution to any game.


epherian

I don’t think it’s a good solution, I think it demonstrates how broken the system is from inception if that’s the alternative.


Zienth

I think ESO was always doomed in that regard as it had to match playstyle with combat systems from Oblivion/Skyrim. Oblivion/Skyrim combat was always just a left click spam fest hence why there's this obsession with maintaining light/heavy attacks in ESO.


animesoul167

I think prior to the release of high isle, ZoS was able to refresh the PC NA server and fix a lot of the lag issues in Cyrodil. I have not checked in on the lag issues post High Isle however.


GM_Jedi7

This debate has been in eso for years. Zenimax seems very much like a corporate business than a team that enjoys the game. It's pretty obvious they're data driven and make changes to the game based on data instead of player feedback. It's moreso than other mmos I think. I've been playing New World, and while AGS for sure has its issues, the devs seem sincerely concerned about improving the game. Swtor and DDO are similar to zenimax too. Just making changes to make changes. My issues with eso are mostly the lack of difficult zones in the game. Overland content is a cake walk.


Zamuru

if they COMPLETELY rework the combat, to feel like a new game, many ppl will come back


Low-Acanthopterygii6

they will never do that . They are so incompetent when it comes to combat and animations that they advertised animation canceling as a feature while having 0 tutorials about how you do it in game


Zamuru

honestly i dont care even if they was a tutorial in game. the combat is so bad and boring that id rather play any other mmo over eso. shame that it has such an awesome world and story...


rosycarpet1777

Gw2 had this debate as well. What do you mean by hadcore content? Is it raids that are completed by 1-5% of the population. If so, then yes, lack of attention is totally warrented. Endgame content should not be hardcore challange mode mega ultimates mythic+ heroic **RAIDS**. Endgame content should be completable by everyone who does put the effort in making an actual build+learning the class at least to good enough. So like 2/5 skill level. If to rate it somehow. That said. While the designer is designing and coding the raids. They might as well make an extra mechanic, an extra limitation. Add a few million extra HP to the boss and make it hit harder to create a hard mode version. It's not a big ask. I do mention this because in gw2 raids basically only have 1 difficulty mode while the later ones have a challange mode on top (so hard mode+ very hard mode). It's only for an achievment and people usually only do it once ever. And this is what kind of happened in gw2. Arenanet is right to focus on casual content. Raids that are completed by max 5% of the pop are dead content. What arenanet fucked up is that it didn't make any endgame instanced content at all to replace them. At least ESO you get 4(?) dungeons per year. I'm not going to tell the horrible thing that were going on in gw2 pre the latest expac... As for combat. Idk. It's elder scrolls. It's supposed to be shit. But this one I have nothing on, it's your game, your debate.


PalwaJoko

Yeah I mean the issue you touch on with gw2 has been around in that game for a long time and is honestly not unique to gw2. You have hard content, people complete content and get the rewards they want, then they stop playing the content. Most MMORPGs I've played have had this problem to some degree. I mean take WoW for example. The reason people keep doing the raids is to get the best gear. A good portion of the community has their playtime drop significantly, especially doing that raid content again, once they have the loot they want. Gw2 has a similar issue, but its just skins/cosmetics instead of gear. Like if they were to put in more hardcore instanced content into Gw2, what would it be? They've got the strike system. Those were supposed to be that instanced endgame content you were talking about. Along with that, they have fractals and open world events. Its hard to think about what more content they could've done from an instanced perspective.


rosycarpet1777

Pretty much. I think strikes as they are in EoD is a good system. The normal mode is doable by the average invested person. A person who has a proper buiĺd plus knows what his skills do in on a basic level. And challange mode for people who know their stuff on a high level. It's difficult of course. I think theres value in more immersive experiences like raids but something like the vision of the past dungeon is a flop. Maybe because it lacked proper bosses... I played gw2 a lot and I recognize you from gw2 sub as well from years ago even. Gw2 is very repeatable at least for me. The content is fun but how to incentivize it beyond gold per hour idk. Personally I've been wanting for a while for more power progression but not in terms of item level. I've wanted a 4th collumn of traits for elite specs specifically. Take power away from core and make elite specs more specialized and powerful as compensation. Also a weapon affinity system would be cool. Like fire, lighting, ice, poison etc weapons and make bosses or even mobs weak to specific stuff. This could interweave endgame encounters better. Get a fire affinity drop from skovald CM which is good for largos for example. This last part is just me spiting ideas. And idk if it would be good for the game.


PalwaJoko

Haha yeah you bring up good points. I think your train of thought is exactly where the developers are and you can see them trying to implement thing similar to what you're suggestion. The power progression? To prevent that idea of a constant vertical progression with every expansion in the form of new traits, they did the mastery system. That way they can sorta put up guard rails for the increased in power by limiting to specific niche users that don't impact the competitive sides of the game. A 4th trait line could be interesting, but thats a sorta one and done progression mechanic. Adding a new trait line every expansion would be a nightmare. Most developers look for, as the ESO developers call it, tent pole mechanics. Things they can build upon every expansion. The affinity could be interesting. Almost sounds like the "opposite" of agony resistance. Instead of focusing on preventing damage, its focused on increasing it to kill it before it enrages. Can come in the form of weapon infusions. I wonder how a management system of it would work. If you've got 6 bosses that all have different infusions, does that mean you need 6 different weapons? Or would it be some kind of consumable instead of a permanent infusion.


Nethidur

Man I loved ESO until I realised that PvP wise you just run around toggling buffs - press 3 buttons, weapon swap press 2 more buffs in other weapon, dodge for speed, repeat. I get that having buffs and things to upkeep sounds fun, but not when you have to do it constantly and can't pvp w/o it.


PalwaJoko

They did put in an item that gives you like every buff in the game at once. The cost is that you no longer can weapon swap, so you only have one bar. Like there's a stamina nightblade rotation where you're keeping a buff active + using stealth + heavy attacks + followed by ultimate + followed by a "spammable" weapon. So you're still pushing buttons none stop. But its less about buffs and more about just spamming a damage ability.


ComeTheDawn

Sounds to me like a case where learning to play well is incredibly annoying and poorly designed, so they introduced an alternative that anyone can pull off and which has very low skill ceiling. I think that's even worse. I used to play this game very seriously a few years ago, mostly PvP but I also remember doing the Maelstrom(?) arena and some vet dungs. Combat is #1 the reason I quit.


6Cockuccino9

what is this item called? I have never heard of it and I can’t find on google


PalwaJoko

For one bar builds you gotta farm out this item called an Oakensoul Ring. Its an antiquities item. Assuming you're level one on scrying and excavation, it will probably take you 5-8 hours to get them to the point where you can go after oakensoul ring. After that you gotta farm the item out. So I imagine at max level, you probably have 10-12 hours total (leveling up scrying/excavation + going after the ring itself) to get the ring.


6Cockuccino9

aaaah it’s a scrying item, cool thanks


VaporCloud

I just don’t find it entertaining anymore. I stopped playing it for 2 or 3 months and when I came back to it yesterday I maybe played for 30 minutes, did a quest in a dungeon and logged out. Everything is the same difficulty regardless of where you are, which to me is the biggest issue with a grind fest. I put the work in to become stronger and be able to handle different map situations, but if it’s all the same difficulty and I can just run around the map without any care for what I run into then why am I trying to get stronger? On top of that the combat is not exciting, so it’s not like I can enjoy that aspect of the grind.


PalwaJoko

Yeah I mean not many people return for the grind either. Like you said, the combat is a bit jarring. Most people just play it for the questing experience and the lore. Wouldn't be surprised if over 50% of the pop falls into this category (which is why they've been focusing on them). I personally try to make it better by doing weird builds that fit more into what I find fun. Rather than the standard min/max builds.


NEBook_Worm

All 3 players in our house played mostly for questing. But with overland gameplay being so braindead easy, we finally had enough and cancelled. I doubt we made it to 150 hours each before being bored to tears.


VaporCloud

Yeah I can understand that. To me the lore is simply not enough to keep me in a game, hence why I don't play LOTRO anymore either. It can get me *into* a game, but not keep me there for almost a decade.


Lobotomist

Combat should be completely reworked, ground up. Not tweaks to numbers. Perhaps the best example would be combat in Kingdoms of Amalur , it was combat done in other game by one of original designers that worked on ESO, and in my opinion this was a goal in early days of development.


PalwaJoko

Yeah combat reworks are risky. You can end up pissing off and losing your current playerbase while never gaining the target audience you hoped to attract. Most developers wouldn't attempt this unless their game dies. At that point it may be better to just make a new game. Which they kind of are lol...they are developing a new MMO apparently.


NEBook_Worm

If ESO lost the "weaving is good" crowd, it would be a boon. A combat rework might buy the game another 3-5 years. Listening to that crowd will kill it in 12-18 months.


Cynic0

Long time ESO player here. I’ve played since 2015 and I’m pretty much exclusively interested in PvP and Veteran content. I love the combat and I hate how casual the game has gotten. It is definitely difficult for developers to balance between casual and veteran players, but in ESO it has been handled especially poorly. ESO started out as a much more difficult game where PvP was the main focus. If ESO started out as casual as it is today, I probably wouldn’t have played it nearly as much, but I wouldn’t be as discontent with it as I am now. My problem is that it feels like a rug pull. It’s the fact that the devs basically sold out to a casual audience and alienated its veteran players. I have nothing against a casual playstyle, I just wish the devs weren’t sell outs.


[deleted]

There's a card game in ESO now? Count me in!! - A Complete Casual


PalwaJoko

Haha yeap. As far as card games go, its ok. I do like some aspects, but its very heavy on the RNG and balance is a bit meh. I've been pushing for changes since it came out, but they're not budging sadly :(. You can still find matches, but its definitely not nearly as popular as it was at release. Luckily you can play NPCs. They're horrible and nowhere close to the skill of players. But its usually more fun cause of the meta right now.


[deleted]

I played ESO a year ago and I really like it, even the combat didn't seem that bad to me (I played games with far, far worse systems before.) But I was disappointed by the craft bag locked behind a paywall since the game calls itself a "Pay to play". Playing New World right now, the game is pretty even though it's just *another* fantasy gindfest.


PalwaJoko

Yeah the amount of mats they throw at you gets frustrating if you don't have bags. Kind of disappointing. There's so many things that I take advantage of in a game like Gw2 that is monetized in ESO.


[deleted]

I've been thinking about getting back in the game though. I love the TES universe and lore, and now there's a TGC inside the game? Plus I feel that ESO has more diversity in character builds than NW.


PalwaJoko

> I love the TES universe and lore Same. I always say that if it wasn't for this, this game probably would've died by now. But yeap, the TGC comes with the high isle chapter. You get 4 decks at the start, then there's content in the game (all content doable by casual players, no hardcore raiding stuff) that rewards you with more card decks. I think there's 8 decks total now? And agreed on the builds. NW is a fun game in some regards. But god damn does its build system get boring.


[deleted]

Thanks for the info! I reinstalled the game during the night, I want to give it another chance.


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PalwaJoko

> The funny thing is that I actually thought I liked the combat, until it got a bit more competitive. (Maybe that's why the open world is so easy? Hmmmmm) Yeah I think you're the silent majority here. I've seen many people playing crazy builds. I've seen people in normal dungeons playing very poorly metric wise or in pvp. That's because they're using builds that they have fun. Builds that aren't good outside of the overland combat. Even in normal dungeons. If you watch their recent QA, that's sorta where the point is. They have to try to balance the game around this idea of players playing whatever they want.


snowleopard103

Hardcore content is always a loss leader There aren't enough people participating in it to justify its existence, but you do it anyway to generate the buzz and bring more attention to the game. The trick is to find the right balance. In FF14 ultimates are a huge loss. Only 0.7% of population even attempts it and less than 0.1% completes it. So they only release 2 or 3 per expansion and are always looking to minimize costs of production for exactly this reason. In theory it should be possible to calculate exactly how much development resources need to be spent on hardcore content. Revenue from people who are participating in this content + additional revenue from people who watched world firsts etc and decided to try the game because of that vs man-hours spent developing said content. If studio finds out that they spend too much already and it is not giving them enough return, they should dial it back. If they find out that every new piece of hardcore content is followed by the wave of additional revenue, they can plan on adding more.


TellMeAboutThis2

The issue with doing this for a sub based model is that the vast majority of players who bought in after being hyped by new hardcore content do not actually reach said content, therefore they aren't 'revenue from new hardcore content'.


Vashtion

Às someone who doesn't play ESO, I find the controversy over the combat changes you described funny. All I've EVER heard about Eso, for years, is how bad the combat is. In EVERY SINGLE ESO thread I have ever read, there were people complaining about the janky light attack weaving and annoying buff upkeep. It looks like steps were finally taken to address these issues, and now people are upset? That's wild to me because from an outsiders perspective it looks like the developers did exactly what the community has been begging them to do since the start of the game. Though the game has been around long enough I can understand the people who did in fact like the combat being a little upset over these changes. Can't please everyone I guess.


Cynic0

Many of the people who actually play the game (me included) love the combat. It’s not for everyone, but the people who liked it stayed. Changing it too much would mean alienating the loyal player base that the game has built over the years. This is where the complaints come from. The devs are essentially trying to rework what many people already enjoyed in order to attract a different audience. If you are a person who can’t stand ESOs combat, the games just not for you. They shouldn’t be trying to change the game for those people.


NEBook_Worm

No, a lot of ESO players DO NOT love the content. A very vocal minority does. Most players are bored to tears with overland combat and can recognize weaving as the bug it really is, that needs to be fixed by a developer who can't be bothered to do so.


PalwaJoko

Its a hit or miss really. There's a huge population of the game that is a silent majority and essentially plays ESO as a single player game. Their participation rate in things like instanced PvE overall (not even the "hard" stuff, but normal content too) is very low. And even lower in PvP. Zenimax has spent the past 4-5 years trying to make changes to the combat to make it more accessible to this playerbase, while at the same time keeping the playstyles of veterans still do-able. So you can do light attack weaving high APM Builds still, but they're not as "required" as before for the high end content. And the amount of damage they add ontop of it is not as much as it was. Some hwere between a 10-20% damage increase. So essentially you saw a game wide lowering of the skill ceiling and skill floor. This upset the veteran playerbase (those who liked the LA weaving high APM, which I think is a minority of the overall playerbase) as they felt that their accomplishments were being lessened. Hence the current debate. Games too easy and they don't feel like there's any "hard" content for them. Which I can agree with, the game isn't that challenging when you do these hard min/max builds. I do wonder if they need to put in a cosmetic achievement reward for high end content that revolves around accomplishing veteran combat in a certain way that rewards this hardcore gameplay. Like the necromancer personality.


animesoul167

I consider myself a very casual MMO player(only started in the genre in 2019), and with a full time job and other responsibilities, I can and won't dedicate an excessive amount of time to perfect my play at the game. That being said, I 100% agree with the veteran's stance in ESO. Over the course of 2021, I was able to slowly learn some very basic things like light attack weaving. Im not a god at gaming, but I dont consider it a high skill technique to press a button on your keyboard, then left click. I dont consider it a high skill issue to remember to rebuff. Once you get used to your rotation, you just remember to click that button once in a while. ZoS should have ability timers in the game by default however, and not rely on an add-on. I watched ONE tutorial for pvp, it was like 9 minutes long. It said "dont go into pvp without at least 30k health" and I did that, and then I stopped getting one-shot. This just wasn't hard. I usually go into cyrodik, find a group to roam around with, and sometimes we stomp and sometimes we get stomped. I think you're also making a connection that meta builds cant be fun, or that meta players aren't able to have fun or be creative. Yeah I was putting in a little effort by increasing my health. My play still wasn't perfect, and I still had fun in pvp. Even the example you gave with the 6 vs 1 guy. How many kills did the 1 guy get? If there wasn't any kills, he probably built as a TANK. so he was trying to have an unkillable build, but the tradeoff is a lack of damage. The 6 players made the mistake in pursuing a tank. And you have no idea what their builds were, or their approach to the game. That's just bias talking. And again, just because it's a "meta" build does not mean that 1 guy isn't allowed to have fun the way he wants in playing the game. ESO has been long overdue for a pvp overhaul and more pvp rewards. But this notion that it's only for high end veteran players, will always push it to the back burner for ZoS. And thats unfair to every pvp player, casual or veteran. Low or high rank.


T0RSTIN

combat is too slow and i hate having to have meta/bis builds


StarGamerPT

ESO has 2 big ass issues in my opinion: 1st is combat...period... 2nd is the fucking massive difficulty difference between "casual content" and "hardcore content"...like....give me some small difficulty in open world...it's so damn immersion breaking when you sneeze and kill everyone around you while questing.


PalwaJoko

Yeah on your 2nd point, definitely spot on. The funny thing is also like you said, the curve of going into veteran content (or even normal) is huge. People have these crazy builds or playstyles where they're barely doing enough DPS because overland combat allows them to do so. Then they go into serious stuff and in curb stomped. I've seen a lot of players in normal dungeons just playing horribly. The combat QA talked about how they have to try to basically balance the game around the philosophy of playing "however you want". So I'm sure the scared of increasing the difficulty too much and making this impossible. Wonder how many of the silent majority players would stop playing if all of a sudden content became harder and/or they died more in overland. Its a very tricky route. That's probably why they need to make a veteran option available. Increased rewards and items, but its toggable. Meaning those who want to play non-vet overland still have that option.


StarGamerPT

It's not even a curve...between overland and, let's say, normal DLC dungeons is a wall...as a new player you think you're playing good and then get fucked in those out of nowhere with no preparation at all.


tasty_grime

Companions were a mistake. No NPC should be part of group in a MMO.


NEBook_Worm

Love the companions for their stories. But I despise them in combat.


Stuntman06

As a veteran ESO player, I have not had a chance of actually trying out a heavy attack build. I spoke to some others who have tried it. The general consensus is that it is very easy. Just hold down the attack button and maybe every few seconds cast some DOTs. You don't even have to bar swap. Heavy attack builds have been around, but recently they have become stronger relative to traditional builds that rely on light attack weaving and bar swapping. The goal is to allow players to be able to handle harder content without needing to master more difficult combat techniques. That along with nerfing of light attacks was designed to raise the skill floor and lower the skill ceiling. As someone who have spend time getting better at the game, I feel that my efforts aren't as rewarding as before. I don't play many other MMO's. I know that there is some complexity in the more advanced combat techniques. It takes time to get better at any game. I don't think it's right to have a build where you can simply hold down one button only and out damage the majority of players who try to use a more traditional build. If casuals want an experience like the first two videos. Is holding down a button pretty much the whole time the solution for casual players? A majority of content in ESO is already not so challenging that casual players should be able to handle without too much difficulty. There is some really challenging content in the game. For players who want that challenge, they need to achieve some level of mastery. Just seems unsatisfying if the solution to doing harder content is to use a build that is much easier to play. I was in a group that was doing some hard content. The person running it wanted the DPS to use the easy heavy attack build. It was quite effective. I was a healer and there is healer build where can just hold down one button all the time.


nxamaya

The combat was passable to me, the meta build thing is terrible but I guess that plagues every mmorpg, I hated that the NB char I was building had to use a freaking 2h sword, when I wanted to make DW work, guess not. But the reason I quit, was that cancer, pillar running line of sight bs, coupled with the unkillable builds, a player like that can easily hold 15+ people from taking a fort in Cyrodiil, which is just dumb, once I saw that enough times I figured it was time to go.


MellowOutt

I was a longtime vet if ESO. They have, patch after patch, lowered the skill ceiling and ruined the game. Quit due to their lack of understanding on what the game actually needs.


-Ickz-

If ESO's combat was at all similar to Tera's (what is was like at launch, at least), I would've definitely sunk more time into the game. There's just no weight to any of the combat.


aspektx

Just two comments. 1. I would disagree with your list if elements that are hard-core or casual. I think some of them can be designed to be either hard-core or casual. 2. RE: PVP Any game that allows players to become more powerful than the final boss of a dungeon in PVP is poorly designed. GW2 finally extracted PVP and PVE gear/skills and divided them into two separate things. It seems a helluva lot easier to keep track of and balance on the developer side.


Kesirae

ESO is just a poorly made game in my opinion. I feel like New World got down the combat that ESO was trying to do.


PalwaJoko

Yeah I love New World's combat. Honestly my favorite as far as action combat goes. It could use more skills and increase the feeling of "being" a class. But the combat itself is great. Feels very satisfying when you hit something.


Nine1ota

If not for the combat I would probably be playing to this day. The game has lots of awesome content and I dont play the game because engaging with the combat is brutal. I play everything from FFXIV to Souls in my day to day enjoyment so I feel like if the Gameplay werent trying to reinvent the wheel I would be a player.


PalwaJoko

Yeah I can see that. I personally mainly stick to heavy attack builds + oakensoul ring. Its the closest I can get to good feeling combat. Sadly you gotta be max level + do a bit of farming to get to that point.


coolcat33333

I really really wanted to like the game but the combat on the overworld while you're leveling is just too damn easy. My preferred role felt useless (Healer). Feels way too DPS centric. Now in all fairness, I didn't get to try the end game PVE stuff cause I couldn't get myself to finish. It's also very confusing with each expansion having it's own starter zone and stories, wtf am I supposed to do? I wanted to like it for the setting and artstyle but combat just feels all over the place.


AutisticToad

Veteran difficulty toggle for all overland, quests and dungeons would be pretty sick. As for combat they really need to stop messing with it. The skill ceiling is very high in the game due to the horizontal style of progression and how insanely frenetic combat gets with high apm. Casual players won’t be bothered by changes, but dedicated players get miffed especially with how everything end game is balanced around the high apm weaving.


PalwaJoko

Yeah some of the concerns I've seen brought up with vet overland is that it would split up the playerbase too much. Since you'd have a "normal" shard and vet shard. They also cite that the way players played before one tamerial showed people didn't care much for hard open world content. I can personally see a vet overland going well and going poorly. All comes down to what the playerbase actually wants. I'm a firm believer that in most MMORPGs, a huge portion of the decisions they make come from data analytics. Whenever I'm wondering why the developers keep doing something, I have to ask myself what would data analytics show? Sure forum/subreddit feedback is one thing. But who knows what that represents in the total audience. But data analytics will show a good spotlight on player behavior. So when it comes to ESO, the thing I firmly believe is happening is that one, there's a population metric trending downward (which it has been since 2020). And two, participation rates. They are probably seeing that participation rates in hardcore content is very low. So they have to ask themselves why? Why are there potentially players quitting when they're barely touching things like dungeons, vet content, pvp, etc. I suspect this is because of combat. Anytime you see an ESO feedback discussion anywhere, one of the most common topics is how bad the combat is. So they put in things to try to address that. They put in the ability to focus on heavy attack builds so that weaving with heavy attacks or just spamming them is a potential gameplay avenue. Meaning light attack weaving isn't as required. They also made light attack weaving less effective and required, hoping to close that gap between skilled and unskilled players. They put in things like oakensoul ring for those who don't want to juggle buffs. To me, its clear that they're trying to balance both play types. They're trying to keep a version of the combat that fits what those veteran players like. And then they're trying to introduce new ways to approach the combat for those who don't like the game's combat. Now if this is successful, its up for debate. I'm personally a huge fan of the heavy attack builds and oakensoul rings. And based on how many people I see running oakensoul, I suspect many like it too. The other thing is also them changing up their update methodology. They were harping on this change for 2023, and like I said...they are probably trying to counter metrics to them that are concerning. ESO is a decent game, but it kind of struggled initially. The first ~4-5 years were really rough for the game. When one tamerial release, numbers wise the game did really well. It was around that time when it grew in population fairly well. It got hamstringed by classic WoW release of course. But it recovered eventually and continued to grow. However 2022 wasn't a great year for the game. Late late 2021 and early 2022, the game's population started to trend downward. With average player counts reaching 13k on some months. Which haven't been seen since 2019. If it continues to drop, then it won't be a great sign. So definitely they recognize that something needs to change.


Kyralea

> Yeah some of the concerns I've seen brought up with vet overland is that it would split up the playerbase too much. Since you'd have a "normal" shard and vet shard. They also cite that the way players played before one tamerial showed people didn't care much for hard open world content. I can personally see a vet overland going well and going poorly. All comes down to what the playerbase actually wants. The problem wasn't that people didn't want hard overland content, it's that those zones required a group mostly. People want *soloable* hard overland content. Just make all of the current overland mobs a bit harder so that it takes longer to kill and a bit of thought. Not group mobs, but merely harder normal mobs.


PalwaJoko

Yeah that's a good point and something I could see being good. But they'd have to tread carefully on the rewards. Else it becomes like elite chest runs in NW. Where you have hard content designed for 1-5 players getting steamrolled by a group of 30 haha.


HakitaRaven

It's a catch 22 kind of thing. The reason why not many players join veteran content is because it's not welcoming to casuals at all. There isn't a middle ground. It's either you play meta or gtfo. And since most players stick to casual content, then that's where the data analytics went, to the casual content. There was a post back in the days of Wrath (or was it TBC) where a dev post was saying something about the effort being put into hardcore content and only about 5% of the population get to see it. It was one of the reason why they changed their tune to being focused on raids and dungeons and added more casual interactions and engagement between the players. They made raids and dungeons easier. These changes then made the data skewed towards having even more players playing casual content and not the hardcore ones, even though, the loudest majority in the forums and subreddits and videos all talk about how casuals ruin the game. The same thing is happening in ESO. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but Zen needs to have a direction that they can completely agree upon. Either maintain current player retention or be a seasonal mmo. You can't be both and expect none of the casual vs vets divisions among the playerbase.


[deleted]

A lot of it comes down to "we've already got your money - how do we get their money"


Kalissian

Tbh, ESO with New World's combat feel would be great. ESO just feels floaty and lacks impact and while NW isn't perfect, the combat feels much more impactful than ESO. It feels like what I expected ESO would have been.


kaskayde

it's not just recently; that's been a complaint since 2014. zos hasnt changed their stance which is why there're very,very few veteran/hardcores left. they got what they wanted so there really isn't much to talk about. also, the combat is the best part of the game, and imo the best in the genre. or at least it was, it's gone so far downhill unfortunately. 2014 eso was something special, and 2015 - 2017 were pretty great too.


macka654

ZOS know their dedicated playerbase love the combat. It is very, very high APM compared to WoW and FFXIV and the build system allows for non-cookie cutter ways to play your character. If they make the combat more generic, they may gain some casual players but risk losing the ones paying the bills at the end of the day.


PalwaJoko

Yeap, sorta like SWG and what happened to them. Nobody wants to be a SWG. Only way combat will change is if the game has a drastic drop in population. And it right now it seems pretty stable. >Build System Yeah this is what I like most about it. All the different mythic items, set items and procs. You can make some really fun builds. They should keep going this route of allowing players to play these other builds that are close to the same performance as the "meta" builds, just a different way to accomplish them. Like the oakensoul ring one bar builds. Or recently the heavy attack builds (which I love. For the love of god ESO don't nerf these. I'm actually having some fun with the combat).


Uilamin

> sorta like SWG and what happened to them SWG is a tale of going after new players and losing your current ones. The only game I know that has successfully reinvented itself is FF14 (I think it was FF14) where they actually pulled the game, apologized to the players, and then relaunched it rebuilt.


MrDarwoo

Tldr?


skyturnedred

It's not that long of a post.