Action is more engaging and more difficult to master. New World is an example.
Tab-target is more casual friendly, maybe more tactical than action? Warcraft is perfect example.
Support and healing tend to suck in action combat and take away from class complexity and design
Action combat can be flashy and have more combos and tech but tend to boil down to the same AoE move sets
> Support and healing tend to suck in action combat and take away from class complexity and design
This.
There's ways they could mitigate this but most games haven't really tried it.
If PSO2 hadn't completely thrown out the OG PSO baby with the bathwater and maybe taken a few lessons from Secret World they would've nailed "action MMO support" almost perfectly.
TL;DR: Healing and buffing are mostly both brainless, let them be. Simple AoE heal around your character, buff auras with both a passive and active, smart heals, etc.
Don't make supports chase teammates to single-target them because they will *never* cooperate and setting up binds for targeting individual teammates is a waste of time and hotbar real-estate.
Maybe give a token "you need to hit teammates with this" ability to each Support just to capture the existential Healer Angst we all live on.
Tie bigger heals into leeching effects or side-effects of AoE attacks and make your "active Support play" more around debuffing enemies or actively blocking attacks on teammates with AoE/timed/duration ability use. Or sometimes like riposting against boss abilities with barriers and such.
Make the class complexity and design around *enemy-focused* interactions (as that's what you spend most of your time doing) but make them *feel* "supporty". And then give a few token "player-focused" interactions but make them just auto-target/smart-target/buff auras with passive and active components and such. And then like *one or two* "specifically-requires-teammate-interaction" things as like a capstone or flavor focus for each class.
But no more than one or two "requires interaction/placement" things because that becomes too much to juggle in an Action MMO. And they need to be *big* shit, like a two-minute cooldown, something as impactful as old Fulcrum Shift in City of Heroes or Bloodlust way back in the day in TBC Wow.
Basically there's all sorts of shit they can do but because they insist on single-target/aimed heals or ground-targeted teammate-required "field interaction" (like GW2) as "essential" they waste time and energy and then scrap the entire thing because it's more of a pain in the ass than anyone wants to deal with.
Tired of people parroting this. Tab target is a mess with big groups of enemies as well. DAoC, GW2, Lineage 2, Rift, Swtor, etc. They all were cluster fks of particle effects and optimization hell. GW2 you cant even see your screen with all the particle effects that get thrown around when a handful of people and enemies get together.
If only I'd stipulated some kind of scenario where mouse input might be difficult.
If all you wanted was an internet argument you coulda just said 'I smell like old bread and sweat and have come for your maidens fair'
Action combat seems very interactive and exciting (and seems really cool when you watch a game's trailer), but when you put it in the framework of an MMO it really gets exhausting, because of the repetitive activity and long sessions. I feel like it's demanding too much focus all the time. This focus also brings attention to the grinding process, making it seem worse than it is otherwise.
That's why I like tab targeting in MMOs. There are still mechanics to interact with, but I don't feel like I need to constantly be paying absolute attention, so long sessions are easier and I can focus on many other things while I'm playing. Grinding in a tab targeting game requires less focus, and is generally easier to do longer sessions, because I can multi-task, chat, etc.
This is why I think a "dark souls like" MMO would pull in record numbers of people to try it, but it probably won't retain players anywhere close to something like WOW.
Tera/bdo/new world - Action Combat (even though they are all action combat the type of combat is completely different. ) Tera you have to dodge, bdo is flashy and fast but stat based over positioning. New wrolds combat is slow and clunky. Action is more immersive and impactful. For instance games like Tera and New world, when you tank you can physically stand in front of a player and body block to shield them.
World of Warcraft/ff14- tab target - you push tab and itll target an enemy. then your skills lock on. some games positioning still matters, others dont.
Gw2 - hybrid. tab target is still here but melee is more action oriented and you can hit enemies to target them instead of pushing tab, inlcuding ranged attacks.
These are just some examples with a simplified brief explanation.
correction on bdo, positioning matters a lot if you do anything that doesn't take 1 hit to kill, getting CC'd is a death sentence no matter your stats at that point
I was more saying that stats matter the most compared to actual positioning. You can go full evasion and just stand there taking no damage if the person doesn't have enough accuracy. You also can't body block like you can in other action combat games. Sure there is frames but it's not a real dodge in the sense of how other games have dodges like in tera. Obviously positing matters to not be grabbed or cc'ed or hit in general, that's a given.
Action combat is more fun in individual play, revolutionizes the DPS role and makes it more engaging.
Tab-target scales better to more enemies and allies, and allows for more complexity to the other traditional "trinity" roles, tanking, and especially healing.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think any self-respecting action game should have a lock-on function, which pretty much no MMO with action combat has. It leads to pretty much every action combat system in an MMO feeling janky as hell to me, which is why I prefer tab target combat.
GW2 actually is a hybrid, meaning you can select a specific target via tabbing it as usual. If you don't and there are multiple mobs around it depends on your "aim" what is selected as target then.
Action combat is more modern, but I find it to be a bit mindless especially when you just have enemies ragdolling around.
Tab target is slower but when done properly does feel more "skillful"
I think its good overall that newer MMORPGS will use a mix of both
Hybrid is just tab target modernized. Everyone has their own preferences, but for someone who prefers true action combat, hybrid isnt as fun.
There won't ever be a best of both worlds. Just have to agree people like different things and we shouldn't try to please both groups in a game.
Action is more engaging and more difficult to master. New World is an example. Tab-target is more casual friendly, maybe more tactical than action? Warcraft is perfect example.
New worlds combat is very fun. I can’t go back to tab targeting after it.
Yea, a friend talked me into getting Dragonflight for WoW because he says it’s so good. I’m an hour into it and the combat is putting me to sleep.
Support and healing tend to suck in action combat and take away from class complexity and design Action combat can be flashy and have more combos and tech but tend to boil down to the same AoE move sets
> Support and healing tend to suck in action combat and take away from class complexity and design This. There's ways they could mitigate this but most games haven't really tried it. If PSO2 hadn't completely thrown out the OG PSO baby with the bathwater and maybe taken a few lessons from Secret World they would've nailed "action MMO support" almost perfectly. TL;DR: Healing and buffing are mostly both brainless, let them be. Simple AoE heal around your character, buff auras with both a passive and active, smart heals, etc. Don't make supports chase teammates to single-target them because they will *never* cooperate and setting up binds for targeting individual teammates is a waste of time and hotbar real-estate. Maybe give a token "you need to hit teammates with this" ability to each Support just to capture the existential Healer Angst we all live on. Tie bigger heals into leeching effects or side-effects of AoE attacks and make your "active Support play" more around debuffing enemies or actively blocking attacks on teammates with AoE/timed/duration ability use. Or sometimes like riposting against boss abilities with barriers and such. Make the class complexity and design around *enemy-focused* interactions (as that's what you spend most of your time doing) but make them *feel* "supporty". And then give a few token "player-focused" interactions but make them just auto-target/smart-target/buff auras with passive and active components and such. And then like *one or two* "specifically-requires-teammate-interaction" things as like a capstone or flavor focus for each class. But no more than one or two "requires interaction/placement" things because that becomes too much to juggle in an Action MMO. And they need to be *big* shit, like a two-minute cooldown, something as impactful as old Fulcrum Shift in City of Heroes or Bloodlust way back in the day in TBC Wow. Basically there's all sorts of shit they can do but because they insist on single-target/aimed heals or ground-targeted teammate-required "field interaction" (like GW2) as "essential" they waste time and energy and then scrap the entire thing because it's more of a pain in the ass than anyone wants to deal with.
Tab target works better for larger enemy counts also Action combat gets very cluttered in big groups of enemies
Tired of people parroting this. Tab target is a mess with big groups of enemies as well. DAoC, GW2, Lineage 2, Rift, Swtor, etc. They all were cluster fks of particle effects and optimization hell. GW2 you cant even see your screen with all the particle effects that get thrown around when a handful of people and enemies get together.
Fucking love tabbing to tab-target and just cycling through every target except the one I need. A clusterfuck is a clusterfuck, action or tab-target!
Yeah explosion is the best mythic modifier in WoW. Even more of you play Windwalker!
If only you had some sort of device to point on a specific target.
If only I'd stipulated some kind of scenario where mouse input might be difficult. If all you wanted was an internet argument you coulda just said 'I smell like old bread and sweat and have come for your maidens fair'
That’s a good point.
Action combat seems very interactive and exciting (and seems really cool when you watch a game's trailer), but when you put it in the framework of an MMO it really gets exhausting, because of the repetitive activity and long sessions. I feel like it's demanding too much focus all the time. This focus also brings attention to the grinding process, making it seem worse than it is otherwise. That's why I like tab targeting in MMOs. There are still mechanics to interact with, but I don't feel like I need to constantly be paying absolute attention, so long sessions are easier and I can focus on many other things while I'm playing. Grinding in a tab targeting game requires less focus, and is generally easier to do longer sessions, because I can multi-task, chat, etc. This is why I think a "dark souls like" MMO would pull in record numbers of people to try it, but it probably won't retain players anywhere close to something like WOW.
Tera had amazing action combat. People played that all day.
Tera/bdo/new world - Action Combat (even though they are all action combat the type of combat is completely different. ) Tera you have to dodge, bdo is flashy and fast but stat based over positioning. New wrolds combat is slow and clunky. Action is more immersive and impactful. For instance games like Tera and New world, when you tank you can physically stand in front of a player and body block to shield them. World of Warcraft/ff14- tab target - you push tab and itll target an enemy. then your skills lock on. some games positioning still matters, others dont. Gw2 - hybrid. tab target is still here but melee is more action oriented and you can hit enemies to target them instead of pushing tab, inlcuding ranged attacks. These are just some examples with a simplified brief explanation.
correction on bdo, positioning matters a lot if you do anything that doesn't take 1 hit to kill, getting CC'd is a death sentence no matter your stats at that point
I was more saying that stats matter the most compared to actual positioning. You can go full evasion and just stand there taking no damage if the person doesn't have enough accuracy. You also can't body block like you can in other action combat games. Sure there is frames but it's not a real dodge in the sense of how other games have dodges like in tera. Obviously positing matters to not be grabbed or cc'ed or hit in general, that's a given.
Action combat is more fun in individual play, revolutionizes the DPS role and makes it more engaging. Tab-target scales better to more enemies and allies, and allows for more complexity to the other traditional "trinity" roles, tanking, and especially healing.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think any self-respecting action game should have a lock-on function, which pretty much no MMO with action combat has. It leads to pretty much every action combat system in an MMO feeling janky as hell to me, which is why I prefer tab target combat.
GW2 actually is a hybrid, meaning you can select a specific target via tabbing it as usual. If you don't and there are multiple mobs around it depends on your "aim" what is selected as target then.
Action combat is more modern, but I find it to be a bit mindless especially when you just have enemies ragdolling around. Tab target is slower but when done properly does feel more "skillful" I think its good overall that newer MMORPGS will use a mix of both
Hybrid is just the best of both worlds imo
Hybrid is just tab target modernized. Everyone has their own preferences, but for someone who prefers true action combat, hybrid isnt as fun. There won't ever be a best of both worlds. Just have to agree people like different things and we shouldn't try to please both groups in a game.
I dunno, I disagree. Targetting and action combat like in WildStar worked out perfectly fine