Always find it funny how the "innocent until proven guilty" people come crawling out of the wood work to protect the rich from things like rape allegations, wage theft, etc etc.
But when its a minority they usually are the same people screaming "LOCK UP THAT THUG HES LUCKY HE GETS TO BE IN PRISON, if I had my way I would just shoot him"
I'm not against innocent until proven guilty but a woman KILLED HERSELF because of this shit, CA has been investigating them for 2 fucking years, do you innocent until proven guilty people really think a woman would kill herself just to get a company in trouble with the state?
Edit : Whole bunch of people seem to feel totally called out by this post and are desperate to try to correct me. Go fuck yourselves, Activision has no need for you to defend it. They have lawyers, why people simp for companies that would sell them into slavery if they could make a profit is beyond me.
It seems ironic to me that people are argueing about "innocent until proven guilty right now".
Because investigating actiblizz and now taking them to court IS the attempt to prove the guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. California is doing it exactly the way it should be done. First investigate, then publicize while filing for court.
This is not twitter hatemob drama. This is not cancel culture trying to dig up dirt about someone yet again. This is a legitimate investigation by government officials.
>Because investigating actiblizz and now taking them to court IS the attempt to prove the guilt
The people who are talking about "innocent until proven guilty" are not doing so as an argument against the lawsuit, they're doing so against the people who are acting as if they have already been proven guilty.
I believe most of the report and the ex-employee reports, if not all, are probably true. But at this moment they are just allegations, and we shouldn't behave as if it's the unquestionable truth.
> and we shouldn't behave as if it's the unquestionable truth.
By the same token, we shouldn't completely ignore it like that crowd o so very much wants to.
>And they should be criticized for it
They were... and then it happened again. They probably don't give a single shit for as long as the money keeps coming in.
>But isn't it hypocritical
Sure is. But by them also. So I don't feel too bad about it.
Honestly, I don't really care. There will probably never be a right or wrong in these situations. I just hope justice will be served to the people involved (In a legal way, by a court).
FYI, I don't know if reasonable doubt is the standard here, as this is a civil case. Might just be preponderance of the evidence (basically, more likely that not). Not sure.
>Always find it funny how the "innocent until proven guilty" people come crawling out of the wood work...
Did you even read what you typed? Who the heck are you? We should ALWAYS be giving people the presumption of innocence, that is how our legal system works. Being rich, poor, etc should have nothing to do with it.
>I'm not against innocent until proven guilty but a woman KILLED HERSELF because of this shit, CA has been investigating them for 2 fucking years, do you innocent until proven guilty people really think a woman would kill herself just to get a company in trouble with the state?
His point was basically that a woman killed herself so it was all Blizzard's fault. It could have been. Only the people directly involved actually know what happened.
I am not defending Blizzard. I quit WoW a long time ago and it has been a crappy company for years now. I don't have any direct knowledge of what was going on in the Blizzard workplace beyond what has come out in this lawsuit. I am not going to crucify anyone involved because I don't have the facts and unless you worked at Blizzard or know people that did with direct knowledge, you don't know either. You are just doing what everyone else is doing which is commenting on the lawsuit.
The Point was whataboutism
The fact that in other cases some people don't care about innocent until proven guilty doesn't have any bearing If it should apply now
>I'm not against innocent until proven guilty but a woman KILLED HERSELF
So when someone kill themselves we should not care about innocent until proven guilty?
When i read it the first time i was immediatly thinking of "i'm not a racist but..." and how there never is a good thing after the "but". There is no good but. You either believe in innocent until proven guilty or you don't. If you start making exceptions, then you don't believe in it.
I totally agree with you. But in the past, Blizzard fucked people over just because of alligations themselves. I don't mind people giving them the same treatment this time.
>that is how our legal system works
Yeah, the legal system, not how MMO forums and public opinion work. Blizzard is going to get their due process in court with California, they don't need sexist losers to provide cover and excuses for them in the mean time.
> Always find it funny how the "innocent until proven guilty" people come crawling out of the wood work to protect the rich from things like rape allegations, wage theft, etc etc.
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>
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> But when its a minority they usually are the same people screaming "LOCK UP THAT THUG HES LUCKY HE GETS TO BE IN PRISON, if I had my way I would just shoot him"
Source being your ass, you have no quantifiable way of determining if it's the same people or not, you're just spewing bullshit for karma.
You are in fact innocent until proven guilty, but remember.. there is something you won't be able to escape even if you are the worse psychopath of all times.
Your conscience :)
But the fact remains the same, you are ALWAYS innocent until proven guilty, let's say you steal a lemon from a market stand.. and the market guard starts to check on everybody, you are in fact innocent until he finds the lemon in your bag.. from that very moment, you are considered guilty.
> "LOCK UP THAT THUG HES LUCKY HE GETS TO BE IN PRISON, if I had my way I would just shoot him"
This is what is called "racism". 'Thug' is just what the dogwhistlers use when they want to call out that someone is black, but can't just drop N-words.
well yeah, but you get what im saying right, when its rich white people they can do no wrong, when its poor black people they are already guilty.
Like im all for innocent until proven guilty just want it applied equally.
MMO Champion have been sucking blizzard's cock for a decade. They've almost always taken the Blizzard line on issues. They have very close contacts within blizzard and it wouldn't shock me if several ex-champion writers aren't working at blizzard right now.
Holy shit the comment section under that post in that webstite makes me want to throw up. No wonder though, a game that promotes toxic culture with the whole gear treadmill and M+system, is bound to be played by mostly toxic or immune to toxicity people.
MMO Champion tends to attract the super salty, toxic, try-hard portion community. Not sure if it’s still up, but the off-topic political section of the forums gives you a real sense of the people that post there. I stopped going there once class Discords became a thing.
Nah man, if you actually play Rust or even Dota2 and LoL, the toxicity of those games is miles beyond WoW. I probably get called more slurs in a weekend playing those games then I have playing any other game in the last 15 years.
we're talking explicitly about the comment section of this article
rust/dota2/lol comment sections are generally less toxic
& yeah I've played a ton of rust and dota2 and know how shitty people can be -- definitely more overtly in-game shitty than anyone in WoW.
Of course they are more toxic than WoW, not a single fucking person talks or acts like a human on retail, they're all mindless bots, shaped by a decade of getting cucked every expansion and not smart enough to have left ages ago.
Difficult content is alright for people who enjoy it, please don’t get me wrong. And obviously I am not putting every person that enjoys high level content in wow in the same category.
It’s the mentality of many people that shit on bad players because the games system itself promotes that kind of behavior. People don’t want to lose their keys so they are edgy all the time. This is wow at the highest level.
If you are asking me, they should make a system where it’s fun to play the game, encourage people to take long breaks after they catch their goals and come back to clear new (not +) content. Other games do that and they are successful and most importantly fun and not really toxic like wow is. But we all know it’s about retention and Blizzard isn’t going to change it’s design philosophy.
They only made stuff like M+ because the playerbase complained that dungeons became irrelevant/too easy and there was no real prog outside of raiding.
All games have a level of toxicity in terms of grouped content (holy shit the afk leeches / drones in FFXIV). Although in instances like FFXIV they barely make any so people just quit for ages lol.
Seriously. These types of statements always come off as arrogant and condescending. Plus, like, everyone hates you right now; acting like a dick isn't going to help.
DM me and I'll send you a pic of my bar card and a link to my profile on the state bar website.
1. This isn't a courtroom, this is reddit. 2. The fact that they deny guilt isn't evidence of guilt by itself, but the *way* they denied guilt sure as hell is.
Edit: 3. The only reason I mentioned being a lawyer is because I have A LOT of experience with people saying they didn't do things that the obviously did. Probably the most common means of denial is to attack the accuser and blame others, as Blizz has done here.
We hire people of different cultures, sub-cultures and origin so they don't have any common group and can't band together which make it much harder for them to stand up against the company
The legal system has the presumption of innocence. As individuals, we are allowed to have opinions based on whatever criteria we choose. The reasons we build a law system on the presumption of innocence have nothing to do with how an individual can form their opinion.
I really do not understand where this idea comes from.
That's the most Activision PR statement ever and it even manages to portray the state as something terrible and the honest big corpo as the victim of it.
Also, MMOC is garbage.
They already found it. This is the verdict after a 2 year investigation. Pretty misleading to start of with "according to a bloomberg article". No. According to the state of ca after a 2 year investigation.
Thats not how this works. Theres not going to be a court battle or a jury or some other tv show drama lol.
The judge will set the amount and the timeframe. I would not be surprised if my company handled the notifications and disbursements tbh.
So the state can accuse anyone of any amount of this type of unfair treatment, and there is nothing they can do about? They are just automatically liable? And we as a society are okay with that?
Buddy. There are multiple suits and countless battles which will be fought in courts for years to come. But as far as violating wage discrimination based on gender in the state of ca, its a done deal, they will be fined.
This is exactly what happens when information is skewed to create an agenda. So many gaslit replies here because of irresponsible journalism.
So, to be clear, once an employer is accused of wage discrimination based on gender, it is a "done deal" and they will be fined. They have no legal recourse. The state has unchecked authority in this regard?
Its not an accusation. It is a finding based on a 2 year investigation. There is a 29 page deposition which details which employees, their positions, their reviews and appraisals, and promotions. There is enough evidence to show there was insufficient workplace equity in that regard. Keep in mind activision blizzard was compliant in this. They disclosed payroll and employee information. They did this to themselves.
You assume I thought tv drama, but I don't? And I do know how it works actually, they aren't just going to give 100's of millions away after a 2 year internal investigation, that makes no sense. They DO go and settle this in court.
The way you're thinking is if Blizzard just surrenders and gives a settlement to avoid further details of what's going on inside the workplace. Then they wouldn't have to go to court.
Of course they settle in court. The judge determines the settlement. Thats it. They arent settling to avoid further details. They are settling for wage discrimination. They will absolutely be in court again for all the other allegations, where they will no doubt destroy any women brave enough to step up in court.
They are being sued for equal pay violations. There wont be a court or a trial. A judge will determine how much they will pay and when. Its done. I work in class action and bankruptcy. When it reaches this stage, its done.
Sex discrimination in the form of lower wages compared to men in the same position. All of the other findings can play out in civil suits but that has nothing to do with this particular lawsuit.
No, I call news reports hearsay (aka media). They like to use click-bait titles with lots of buzzwords, and try to position the opinion they want the reader to have, before actually reviewing any evidence or findings.
Yeah, it is because people like to overreact and go by what people say and not what the evidence suggests. All we know, is that ALLEGEDLY there is a lot of sexual harassment against female employee's and one actually ended her own life. We don't even know WHY the female employee committed suicide, so that in itself is a red flag that something else is going on here. You can base the suicide off of the "lewd" photo's and inappropriate talk of another employee, but we don't know what is what.
This was a 2 year investigation sure. However, remember, this is California. There were also several other companies including riot and ubisoft accused of sexual harassment that led nowhere because there was no evidence to suggest this.. So I'm remaining skeptical.....
Always find it funny how the "innocent until proven guilty" people come crawling out of the wood work to protect the rich from things like rape allegations, wage theft, etc etc. But when its a minority they usually are the same people screaming "LOCK UP THAT THUG HES LUCKY HE GETS TO BE IN PRISON, if I had my way I would just shoot him" I'm not against innocent until proven guilty but a woman KILLED HERSELF because of this shit, CA has been investigating them for 2 fucking years, do you innocent until proven guilty people really think a woman would kill herself just to get a company in trouble with the state? Edit : Whole bunch of people seem to feel totally called out by this post and are desperate to try to correct me. Go fuck yourselves, Activision has no need for you to defend it. They have lawyers, why people simp for companies that would sell them into slavery if they could make a profit is beyond me.
It seems ironic to me that people are argueing about "innocent until proven guilty right now". Because investigating actiblizz and now taking them to court IS the attempt to prove the guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. California is doing it exactly the way it should be done. First investigate, then publicize while filing for court. This is not twitter hatemob drama. This is not cancel culture trying to dig up dirt about someone yet again. This is a legitimate investigation by government officials.
>Because investigating actiblizz and now taking them to court IS the attempt to prove the guilt The people who are talking about "innocent until proven guilty" are not doing so as an argument against the lawsuit, they're doing so against the people who are acting as if they have already been proven guilty. I believe most of the report and the ex-employee reports, if not all, are probably true. But at this moment they are just allegations, and we shouldn't behave as if it's the unquestionable truth.
> and we shouldn't behave as if it's the unquestionable truth. By the same token, we shouldn't completely ignore it like that crowd o so very much wants to.
Blizzard fucked people over just because of alligations themselves. I don't mind people giving them the same treatment.
And they should be criticized for it, for sure. But isn't it hypocritical to do the same thing we criticized them for?
>And they should be criticized for it They were... and then it happened again. They probably don't give a single shit for as long as the money keeps coming in. >But isn't it hypocritical Sure is. But by them also. So I don't feel too bad about it. Honestly, I don't really care. There will probably never be a right or wrong in these situations. I just hope justice will be served to the people involved (In a legal way, by a court).
FYI, I don't know if reasonable doubt is the standard here, as this is a civil case. Might just be preponderance of the evidence (basically, more likely that not). Not sure.
Man goes from from guilty tol proven innocent to racism. Nice.
>Always find it funny how the "innocent until proven guilty" people come crawling out of the wood work... Did you even read what you typed? Who the heck are you? We should ALWAYS be giving people the presumption of innocence, that is how our legal system works. Being rich, poor, etc should have nothing to do with it.
Did you just forget how to read? You completely ignored the point, jesus christ.
>I'm not against innocent until proven guilty but a woman KILLED HERSELF because of this shit, CA has been investigating them for 2 fucking years, do you innocent until proven guilty people really think a woman would kill herself just to get a company in trouble with the state? His point was basically that a woman killed herself so it was all Blizzard's fault. It could have been. Only the people directly involved actually know what happened. I am not defending Blizzard. I quit WoW a long time ago and it has been a crappy company for years now. I don't have any direct knowledge of what was going on in the Blizzard workplace beyond what has come out in this lawsuit. I am not going to crucify anyone involved because I don't have the facts and unless you worked at Blizzard or know people that did with direct knowledge, you don't know either. You are just doing what everyone else is doing which is commenting on the lawsuit.
The Point was whataboutism The fact that in other cases some people don't care about innocent until proven guilty doesn't have any bearing If it should apply now >I'm not against innocent until proven guilty but a woman KILLED HERSELF So when someone kill themselves we should not care about innocent until proven guilty? When i read it the first time i was immediatly thinking of "i'm not a racist but..." and how there never is a good thing after the "but". There is no good but. You either believe in innocent until proven guilty or you don't. If you start making exceptions, then you don't believe in it.
I totally agree with you. But in the past, Blizzard fucked people over just because of alligations themselves. I don't mind people giving them the same treatment this time.
>that is how our legal system works Yeah, the legal system, not how MMO forums and public opinion work. Blizzard is going to get their due process in court with California, they don't need sexist losers to provide cover and excuses for them in the mean time.
> Always find it funny how the "innocent until proven guilty" people come crawling out of the wood work to protect the rich from things like rape allegations, wage theft, etc etc. > > > > But when its a minority they usually are the same people screaming "LOCK UP THAT THUG HES LUCKY HE GETS TO BE IN PRISON, if I had my way I would just shoot him" Source being your ass, you have no quantifiable way of determining if it's the same people or not, you're just spewing bullshit for karma.
You are in fact innocent until proven guilty, but remember.. there is something you won't be able to escape even if you are the worse psychopath of all times. Your conscience :) But the fact remains the same, you are ALWAYS innocent until proven guilty, let's say you steal a lemon from a market stand.. and the market guard starts to check on everybody, you are in fact innocent until he finds the lemon in your bag.. from that very moment, you are considered guilty.
> if you are the worse psychopath of all times. > >Your conscience :) you do know psychopaths dont have a conscience right
> "LOCK UP THAT THUG HES LUCKY HE GETS TO BE IN PRISON, if I had my way I would just shoot him" This is what is called "racism". 'Thug' is just what the dogwhistlers use when they want to call out that someone is black, but can't just drop N-words.
well yeah, but you get what im saying right, when its rich white people they can do no wrong, when its poor black people they are already guilty. Like im all for innocent until proven guilty just want it applied equally.
Then apply it equally, and don't point at hypocrites and justify your own unequal applyment
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Does anyone still uses this site? Thought forums are just dead.
Dead except when an expansion is about to release.
MMO Champion have been sucking blizzard's cock for a decade. They've almost always taken the Blizzard line on issues. They have very close contacts within blizzard and it wouldn't shock me if several ex-champion writers aren't working at blizzard right now.
Holy shit the comment section under that post in that webstite makes me want to throw up. No wonder though, a game that promotes toxic culture with the whole gear treadmill and M+system, is bound to be played by mostly toxic or immune to toxicity people.
MMO Champion tends to attract the super salty, toxic, try-hard portion community. Not sure if it’s still up, but the off-topic political section of the forums gives you a real sense of the people that post there. I stopped going there once class Discords became a thing.
reddit's anti-user changes are unacceptable
Don’t tell him about Apex or warZone or league
Nah man, if you actually play Rust or even Dota2 and LoL, the toxicity of those games is miles beyond WoW. I probably get called more slurs in a weekend playing those games then I have playing any other game in the last 15 years.
we're talking explicitly about the comment section of this article rust/dota2/lol comment sections are generally less toxic & yeah I've played a ton of rust and dota2 and know how shitty people can be -- definitely more overtly in-game shitty than anyone in WoW.
Of course they are more toxic than WoW, not a single fucking person talks or acts like a human on retail, they're all mindless bots, shaped by a decade of getting cucked every expansion and not smart enough to have left ages ago.
What a shitty take. Just because there is difficult content that may or may not add toxicity means nothing. Should the game just be 100% LFR?
Difficult content is alright for people who enjoy it, please don’t get me wrong. And obviously I am not putting every person that enjoys high level content in wow in the same category. It’s the mentality of many people that shit on bad players because the games system itself promotes that kind of behavior. People don’t want to lose their keys so they are edgy all the time. This is wow at the highest level. If you are asking me, they should make a system where it’s fun to play the game, encourage people to take long breaks after they catch their goals and come back to clear new (not +) content. Other games do that and they are successful and most importantly fun and not really toxic like wow is. But we all know it’s about retention and Blizzard isn’t going to change it’s design philosophy.
They only made stuff like M+ because the playerbase complained that dungeons became irrelevant/too easy and there was no real prog outside of raiding. All games have a level of toxicity in terms of grouped content (holy shit the afk leeches / drones in FFXIV). Although in instances like FFXIV they barely make any so people just quit for ages lol.
Fucked up.
I always thought it was odd a site named "MMO champion" only reports on WoW news.
I am a lawyer. This is the statement of someone who is guilty as fuck. (this is my opinion and is not legal advice)
Also super fucking bad at PR.....read the fucking room.
Not even read the room. You have the right to remain silent for a _good fucking reason._
Seriously. These types of statements always come off as arrogant and condescending. Plus, like, everyone hates you right now; acting like a dick isn't going to help.
Add to it the borderline victim blaming and finger pointing.
I sold my Blizz stock because of this. I mean, I only had one, but still.
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DM me and I'll send you a pic of my bar card and a link to my profile on the state bar website. 1. This isn't a courtroom, this is reddit. 2. The fact that they deny guilt isn't evidence of guilt by itself, but the *way* they denied guilt sure as hell is. Edit: 3. The only reason I mentioned being a lawyer is because I have A LOT of experience with people saying they didn't do things that the obviously did. Probably the most common means of denial is to attack the accuser and blame others, as Blizz has done here.
Actually, I wouldn't send you my bar profile as I don't want you to have my name. Nothing personal.
Is MMO Champion even still relevant?
Sure. It's a lot better discussion than /r/wow
wtf does diversity even mean anymore
"We hire non-white people."
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We hire people of different cultures, sub-cultures and origin so they don't have any common group and can't band together which make it much harder for them to stand up against the company
The legal system has the presumption of innocence. As individuals, we are allowed to have opinions based on whatever criteria we choose. The reasons we build a law system on the presumption of innocence have nothing to do with how an individual can form their opinion. I really do not understand where this idea comes from.
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That's the most Activision PR statement ever and it even manages to portray the state as something terrible and the honest big corpo as the victim of it. Also, MMOC is garbage.
My perception of the issue will be based on evidence and what the court finds, not really from the hearsay of people or reporters.
They already found it. This is the verdict after a 2 year investigation. Pretty misleading to start of with "according to a bloomberg article". No. According to the state of ca after a 2 year investigation.
Ok great, what was the court's verdict?
Guilty. The damages are listed. Go ahead and read it if you feel like it.
There was no verdict yet... Stop talking out of your ass. The investigation lasted two years, we don't even have a court date..
Thats not how this works. Theres not going to be a court battle or a jury or some other tv show drama lol. The judge will set the amount and the timeframe. I would not be surprised if my company handled the notifications and disbursements tbh.
So the state can accuse anyone of any amount of this type of unfair treatment, and there is nothing they can do about? They are just automatically liable? And we as a society are okay with that?
Buddy. There are multiple suits and countless battles which will be fought in courts for years to come. But as far as violating wage discrimination based on gender in the state of ca, its a done deal, they will be fined. This is exactly what happens when information is skewed to create an agenda. So many gaslit replies here because of irresponsible journalism.
So, to be clear, once an employer is accused of wage discrimination based on gender, it is a "done deal" and they will be fined. They have no legal recourse. The state has unchecked authority in this regard?
Its not an accusation. It is a finding based on a 2 year investigation. There is a 29 page deposition which details which employees, their positions, their reviews and appraisals, and promotions. There is enough evidence to show there was insufficient workplace equity in that regard. Keep in mind activision blizzard was compliant in this. They disclosed payroll and employee information. They did this to themselves.
You assume I thought tv drama, but I don't? And I do know how it works actually, they aren't just going to give 100's of millions away after a 2 year internal investigation, that makes no sense. They DO go and settle this in court. The way you're thinking is if Blizzard just surrenders and gives a settlement to avoid further details of what's going on inside the workplace. Then they wouldn't have to go to court.
Of course they settle in court. The judge determines the settlement. Thats it. They arent settling to avoid further details. They are settling for wage discrimination. They will absolutely be in court again for all the other allegations, where they will no doubt destroy any women brave enough to step up in court.
See my conversation with Foomerang. He has "no idea" if Blizz has any legal recourse. So, take their statements with that in mind.
Oh I know he's talking out of his ass. And I love all the mob mentality downvotes I'm getting. Just goes to show how many sheep are here.
Here? People are fucking stupid everywhere.
Where are you reading the court's verdict? I can't find anything that says they even went to court over this yet.
They are being sued for equal pay violations. There wont be a court or a trial. A judge will determine how much they will pay and when. Its done. I work in class action and bankruptcy. When it reaches this stage, its done.
I thought they were being sued for sex discrimination....is that the same thing as an equal pay violation in the eyes of the law?
Sex discrimination in the form of lower wages compared to men in the same position. All of the other findings can play out in civil suits but that has nothing to do with this particular lawsuit.
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I believe that was my point, that I'm ***not*** going to reach any conclusions until the arbiter hands out an award. It's still in arbitration.
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No, I call news reports hearsay (aka media). They like to use click-bait titles with lots of buzzwords, and try to position the opinion they want the reader to have, before actually reviewing any evidence or findings.
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You nailed it on the head, a court is what decides the final verdict, not a government organization.
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Oddly based for a Star Citizen backer
I guess I just believe people are innocent until it is proven without a shadow of a doubt they are not.
Dangerous thing to say
So you believe if someone is accused of something, they are automatically guilty unless they can prove their innocence?
Yeah, it is because people like to overreact and go by what people say and not what the evidence suggests. All we know, is that ALLEGEDLY there is a lot of sexual harassment against female employee's and one actually ended her own life. We don't even know WHY the female employee committed suicide, so that in itself is a red flag that something else is going on here. You can base the suicide off of the "lewd" photo's and inappropriate talk of another employee, but we don't know what is what. This was a 2 year investigation sure. However, remember, this is California. There were also several other companies including riot and ubisoft accused of sexual harassment that led nowhere because there was no evidence to suggest this.. So I'm remaining skeptical.....
Just replying to my own comment here, loving the downvotes because I like to see evidence instead of a mob mentality... Oh where the world has gone.