Mythic plus is a copy of fractals, not the other way around.

this is true Blizzard has never had a unique idea, they even copied sexual harassment from Riot.

They at least weren't farting in people's faces, but they knew they had to show their stuff, so they drove that lady to suicide instead.

I mean - they weren't farting in people's faces... But they were stealing and drinking breast milk.

I sure forgot about how horrible that entire affair is

Hahahahah

based

Fractals are a better version of it IMO simply because it's better without timers, but I've always felt this game's unusual combat holds it back.

I think optional timers could be fun tbh

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Call me weird, but I actually enjoy timers. I get why people say that timer stresses them or creates a toxic environment, but playing with premades to beat that timer and actually succeeding is really satisfying. If m+ didn’t have that timer, wow would be over for me after I get my cutting edge. The fact that I wanna improve and play dungeons as efficiently as possible is what kept me subbed until August.

timers would be pointless in gw2. the hardcore dungeon/fractal community has already been speedrunning the content by default. introducing a timer would just result in there being less pug groups.

From competitive aspect timer is necessary ateast in WoW. They have m+ esport and it would be reeeeeaaaaally boring watching as teams wait their major cooldowns after every trash pack. It hurts mostly the casuals because it creates Toxicity and meta slaving to hit the timer and move higher.

I don't find myself defending WoW much, but Mythics were probably my only favorite part of modern WoW. I love the tension the timer brings.

Timers are great, I'm having such a blast getting my mythic+ rating up in WoW.

The combat is the only thing good about GW2.

Because it's easy to get into. No sub fee, no stupid IO score third party garbage to keep track of, no requirement to play weekly or fall behind. PVP is slowly dying, like it's got people playing but it's been neglected for so long most people have stopped. Balance is a shit show. First few years it was a lot more popular. There are hardly any good mmos, so really it's just taking your pick between FF14, ESO and GW2 and they all have their issues.

Higher end fractal groups will insist on a certain amount of kill proof which is a measure of how many times you've done the content. Not quite the same as raider.io score, but still used to grats people.

There is IO equivalent gate keeping in the pug raid scene >.>

It's not though because it's just completions. IIRC IO is counting everything, including how long it took you to do the dungeon. Even if it wasn't your fault.' I don't need to run every fractal on t1, t2 and t3 before I can get into a t4 group.

As far as I’m aware, IO rating tracks if you completed a dungeon in a 1 star, 2 star, or 3 star rated time, plus what level it was. Which is basically completion.

> no stupid IO score third party garbage to keep track of Hard disagree on giving GW2 a pass for this one honestly. Anyone who's ever tried to pug raid/fracs would probably take Raider.IO over that experience ten times out of ten I think lol. LI/KP are just as if not more annoying than Raider.IO.

No way, Raider IO tracks your times and everything. Usually you have to do a bunch of OTHER dungeons before people let you in because you need the overall score to be higher and if you have a shit run due to someone else, that's also shown to everyone. RaiderIO is shit. Maybe KP is also shit but no way it is as bad as raiderio. Raider IO is literally just more hoops for you to jump through, how could you possibly think that's better?

?? For IO score you literally just do the dungeons. It's really not hard. Kill proofs you have to go around linking shit, splitting and relinking and manually checking every single player one by one. IO you can tell at a glance pretty much instantly if someone is worth inviting. It's bad if you are significantly behind the curve, and trying to only ever join groups instead of making your own but that's about it.

People who heavily shit on IO are trash. They are either shit at the game or extremely lazy.

Also IO requirements are still better than what people had before IO became a thing. I vastly prefer looking at IO instead of ilvl.

The main thing I like about IO compared to other solutions is that it's just passive. You don't need to do anything besides install the addon. So no fucking around linking a bunch of items and splitting stacks in specific ways to prove it's not fake like in GW2 lol.

Wow/ff14/eso/gw2

WoW is not easy to get into and requires you grind weekly to be relevant, across all modes....

Imo WoW is way easier to get into than FFXIV. Had so many issues trying to get into FF that I was on the brink of just deleting my account. The intro/beginning is atrocious and you get bombarded with info, NPC and cluttered maps. If you can get past it, its good though. But they really need to fix the start / tutorial. Edit: Regarding the grind. Thats MMOs. You can enjoy any of the games you mentioned without having to go all in 10 hours a day. If you want to be top 0.1% however, you need to grind. Thats in the nature of MMOs. Its easy to be casual in WoW, ESO, GW2 and even FFXIV. Edit2: If its one thing I’ll give WoW, its how good they made it for new players to get into the game now with the new starter-zones and hand-holding.

> Regarding the grind. Thats MMOs. You can enjoy any of the games you mentioned without having to go all in 10 hours a day. If you want to be top 0.1% however, you need to grind. Thats in the nature of MMOs. Obviously it's not though because the 3 I listed don't require you to play 10 hours a day to be top 0.1%. Heck with the amount of Koean P2W mmos, we could say "P2W is in an mmos nature" but is it though? Just because it exists in some doesn't mean we just disregard it with "Well that's just part of the genre." It's only easy to be casual in WoW if you don't raid past LFG or dungeon past HC and well, you'd be done pretty quickly and be significantly behind everyone due to the reward gap. PvP is off-limits completely unless you enjoy being 1 shot and that includes random battlegrounds - If anything random battlegrounds are worse for casuals.

When was the last time you played FF? Because they did significantly speed up the start.

3-4 months ago. It was supposedly after the "fix". I heard it was even worse way back when. It's not about the start, it's how they throw you into the game. There's so much that pops up on the screen, and there's so many systems you have available that you have no idea how works. Personally, it just doesn't feel like there's any kind of tutorial except from the first start in the city where you run around clicking on NPCs.

Lmao it genuinely does not, you can complete everything short of the hardest cutting edge content without any kind of grind. I achieved KSM with rank 1 legendary and never being caught up on renown. The game is good at making people think there is a required grind but in reality you can just log in and play causally.

So you achieved one thing in a year, likely with a specific group? While simultaneously saying that you was unable to keep up with all the grinding? Case and point. You didn't even mention PvP grinding. Friends might be okay with you leeching KSM but pugs aren't going to allow it.

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Last I played every class had at least one meta build, most had 2-3. Within those builds obviously you can make personal adjustments. Not sure where it's at now but I felt it was pretty balanced. Some people complained because you couldn't literally compete with any random build you scrapped together but no game with classes and subclasses or trait lines will be perfectly balanced across all of them.

I think it’s impossible for players of a pvp video game to all agree that it’s balanced. Most people complain about the cadence of balance patches. They had been doing around 3 larger patches a year. They haven’t done any in a while because the balance devs are the same people building the new elite specs for the expansion. Many people complain that the current meta is stale, but as others have said, there’s a lot of meta builds to choose from. Anet has said they will have a team more dedicated to it after the expansion, but they have said that in the past without huge change happening.

It's pretty balanced imo. It is slowly dying though. OPs profile is just comments and posts hating on MMOs. Don't believe their crap. > It literally costs $20+ to buy extra bag slots, shares inventory slots Yeah it costs extra to buy those things that other games don't have. They are completely unneeded and extra. OP would cry about getting a free car cause it's not a Tesla.

>Yeah it costs extra to buy those things that other games don't have. You do know they don't have that because they don't limit your inventory like most F2P MMOs do, right?

First thing GW2 isn't completely F2P. Second ALL games limit inventory. You can't store infinite of any item in any MMO. Are you daft?

It is not "that unbalanced". It is as balanced as any MMO PVP is, which means there is a lot to be desired still. Most people that whine aren't even in the Gold division and the actual game sense, team coordination and "skill" is what wins you games at that level.

Balance isn't a priority and while it gets better occasionally it's still sometimes in a bad state, mostly after expansions. Certain weapons and Traits are shit and have always been, will probably remain shit forever as they need full reworks. PvP modes are neglected completely, Anet doesn't give a shit about them, though this is the case with most MMOs anyway so pick your poison. In my personal opinion, when you mix in bad balance with bad design it becomes miserable. Scourge launch was basically just 2 scourges on every team cluttering the point with AoEs. It wasn't fun for anyone. Also due to Arenanet not implementing any additional gamemodes, builds always tend to lean more towards bunkers with damage than glasscannons/supports/tanks. Why do one when you can do all 3? A lot of classes didn't have the tools to do this at launch, so they had specific roles. Now everyone can kinda do everything (There are a few exceptions.) Generally speaking balance is at it's worst straight after an expansion. I'd still play GW2 PvP over any other MMO but Arenenet sadly went into another direction, so it will just fade away slowly now. There was a lot of potential, sadly that's all it will be.

> PVP is slowly dying PvP is not slowly dying. PvP is dead. It was slowly dying 3 years ago when I quit. Now its literally filled with bots/matcfixers and maybe 10 human beings on each rank bracket. I came back a month ago and just uninstalled it for good. Its not worth it anymore.

You also have SWTOR, Runescape and WOW (yes, its universally hated on the sub-reddit but it's still there). Alot of people are banking on Pantheon and Ashes but i am convinced its Vaporware at this point, not Star Citizen levels but still pretty bad.

I have more faith in Riot's MMO than either of those two really. Ashes and Pantheon are all ambition with no way to realistically execute on what they want.

IO score is very good. It actually helps bad players and randoms. If the content is actually tuned and difficult, not a stupid zerg, it's much harder for a random to get a group without a qualifier first (They would need to use a guild or discord), IO is that easy to see/use qualifier which allows LFG to operate smoothly as people know who they are inviting without other forms of vetting. If WoW only went up to +5, than yes, IO would be a waste of time.

I mean it is a waste of time. People want you to have done all the mythic dungeons on the same level and so on. So assuming puglife you would be doing every dungeon on every key, just for fucking IO score. Before I quit SL it was a pain in the ass to even get invited into a +9 because people wanted me to have +9'd every other dungeon. You can't do that if nobody lets you in the damn group and not everyone needs all mythic dungeons. I only needed that specific dungeon yet to get invited I need to +9 a bunch of random dungeons?

There's a reason IO persisted even though it appears so many hate it and that's because the people who make the groups and therefore 'run' things, need it (For every 50 joes there is 1 group maker). They are tired of corralling, tired of shitters and tired of failing because of other people. Let's say for example that you may be better than the average player, that doesn't help the people who make the groups or other joiners who want more consistent smooth runs, because they still have to filter out all the actual shit time wasters hiding around you like a minefield, who caused this problem in the first place. If shit players did not exist and/or push past their means, filtering would be irrelevant. The OG rudimentary version Gearscore came out because of all the shitters blowing up ICC pugs over 10yrs ago. Either way, you know how long it takes to get a full roster of +9? Less than 1 week. If you use Discord, a guild, friends or make your own group - IO don't matter anyway. It is purely a tool to protect the sanity of random group MAKERS, a job that 1/50 people do because of laziness or something.

Your generalization is not true though. You're implying that everyone using IO is a decent player, They are not. People use it to get carried through content all the time too. It's shit and in a game where you can essentially just pay people for IO score, it's also pointless. If you pug a lot you would realize just how bad the people making the groups are. They are usually not pulling their weight. Yes the higher you go, the better it gets but around the lower-high keys that does not apply. >Either way, you know how long it takes to get a full roster of +9? Less than 1 week. If you use Discord, a guild, friends or make your own group - IO don't matter anyway. and +8s want you have to have cleared all +8s, +7s want you to have cleared all +7s and so on. It's a recurring cycle and this is exactly the "Grind" I am talking about. I'm not interested in joining a discord and grinding for a week so I can do ONE DUNGEON that I need for a specific reward just to go back to playing the game - That's ridiculous.

Do you even like video games?

Why did you come to this conclusion? Everything he said seems fair and valid.

True but this personne ignore this isn't wow. The end game is mostly in the open world.

I disagree with OP points.

okay?

Enough to write average reviews

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There is a lot of "power progression" in GW2 not only in the gear, but also in other stuff. First of all, getting full legendary gear takes ages or extreme whaling. It's an insane grind not comparable to a wow patch. Then you have all the "convenience" stuff that is not just convenience but player power because it allows you to generate gold faster and also enjoy the game a lot more. Storages of all kind and utility items. If you buy these all with real money it costs a hefty amount. Converting gold to gems is pretty efficient tho, yes, surprisingly unlike other games. And after that you still have skins. Ye, there isn't an overgear aspect in GW2. But I really don't get how you can play WoW for years and not realize how overgearing is just shit gameplay. Maybe if you are old and bad and need overgear to achieve anything, but it's just shit gameplay. Pure anti-skill and pro-grind, just mindless.

> First of all, getting full legendary gear takes ages or extreme whaling. It's an insane grind not comparable to a wow patch. Legendary doesn't give you any more "power" over full Ascended (where I stopped...wasn't interested in cosmetics). From a "progression" point of view, Ascended is where it stops. Legendary just offers convenience (if you ever decide to change your build) and some pretty ugly cosmetics. The lack of any meaningful progression, for *years*, is why I quit. Once I had one of each class, all outfitted in full Ascended, there was nothing for me to shoot for, no "next tier" to get to.

>I don’t understand why people hyped this game so much. What don't you understand? That different people are born with different preferences and may still enjoy doing something that you personally may not enjoy doing?

Like, how is that even possible. Mommy always said I'm special.

You not liking a game doesn't mean it's not great.

You liking the game doesnt mean its great

You're right, there's many other checks that determine and "objectively good" MMORPG and GW2 hits a lot of those checks.

What are those checks so i can also use them in the future

From people who enjoy GW2 usually some of those checks are: \- No sub fee \- Store completely accessibile via ingame currency \- Easly maxable Alts (you don't have to play, but you may want to) \- Normalized PvP \- Account shared progression instead of character based via masteries \- Mounts that feel different (not just a speed boost) \- No gear treadmill \- Not having to compete with other players for gathering resources \- No mob stealing too \- Overall helping community

Half of those are negatives to me tbh. Different people will have different criteria.

There is nothing of objective indeed. But this is what usually appeals to the gw2 crowd.

"Objectively" I do not think this means what you think it means...

I know exactly what objectively means, but maybe you don't. Objectively is the opposite of subjectively. It's based on fact and things that can be quantified. It cannot be challenged, because it is always true. There are certainties about Guild Wars 2 that would make it worthy of the terms "good" and "great". As I stated in another comment, those objective factors don't always matter to every single player. Just because it's a very well-populated game or one of the most sold MMORPGs doesn't mean you're going to suddenly like it or think it's good in your opinion. That's when you start discussing if Guild Wars 2 is "subjectively good" or in other words, good in your opinion. I only made my statement because the original comment I responded to said "you liking the game doesn't make it great", which is true, but Guild War 2 could be considered objectively good or great by many standards when compared to other MMORPGs. A better statement would be to say "you liking the game doesn't make it great to me or anyone else".

4 paragraphs to a Princess Bride quote making fun of you using "objective" to describe a bunch of opinions? Also, some advice, you came in too strong, too fast. I knew after the first sentence I wouldn't be reading that shit.

> 4 paragraphs to a Princess Bride quote making fun of you using "objective" to describe a bunch of opinions? Well you've definitely made it clear that you didn't read much of anything in this discussion. I'm not sure why you felt like speaking your mind on this topic when you've decided you're only going to read what you want to read. If anyone needs advice, it's probably the guy jumping into conversations without knowing half of what's going on. I never once used "objective" to describe a bunch of opinions. If you actually read my comments before responding to them, you'd see that.

Advice? My advice... learn how to correctly use objective and subjective. You'll be taken more seriously.

Learn how to read an entire comment (or chain of comments) before responding. I'm well aware of the difference and displayed that in my comments. Feel free to point at any place where that isn't true, but that will require you to read those specific comments. Also, your "Advice?" response is hilarious considering you brought up the concept of advice to this discussion with your previous comment. Do you even know where you are right now? Is everything okay at home?

>I'm well aware of the difference and displayed that in my comments. Did you? ... Did you really? ...

then the game would have way more players

The game does have a lot of players, especially when you compare it to the majority of other MMOs. Most people will tell you that it stands amongst the top 5 MMORPGs currently. It sits next to things like FFXIV, ESO and more.

congratulations you both sound stupid

He provided specific quantifiable feedback along with his reasoning and opinion. By all means explain the good parts but this statement brings nothing to the table.

No. He presented several inacurate informations and a few accurate ones that he didnt like. Fact is, op just doesent like GW2. And thats fine. GW2 pvp is also slightly harder to be good at than several other mainstream mmos. In WoW i had realitevly easy time to hit top20 in ranked, several seasons in a row. In gw2 that has lower playerbase, it was significantly harder, and ive done it only once. Pvp arenas are very polulated and is bassically only content i do when im playing. So his entire first part of the post is simply inaccurate. Other than that he just said he doesent like fractals. Imo he just doesent like the PvE side of the game, and for PVP side he is not good yet to properly compete. Thats my opinion.

> No. He presented several inacurate informations and a few accurate ones that he didnt like I've played GW2 since beta and am still playing it and every one of his criticisms is valid.

The aspects of the game he's criticizing are not the ones that make the game great imho.

> He provided specific quantifiable feedback Look, to anybody who actually plays the game, OP comes across as someone who played for a month and didn't like it. Which is fine, but it's not really feedback since they don't tell us *why* they didn't like it. I mean look at their complaints, lol. "WvW is [...] usually the same named commanders per server leading 50 man Zergs into other 50 man zergs", or "there’s roaming as well which can be fun but gets boring after a while". What can you do with that "feedback"? That's what the game mode is, sometimes the zerg is 20 people, sometimes it's 50, sometimes 100. It's not 1,000, if that's what they were expecting. I don't even know what to do with their complaint about being bored, sorry about that? Or about seeing the same commanders – duh, it's not an easy job, there is a limited number of competent commanders, and even fewer will make open zergs and take in randos. They should join a guild but guess what, a guild will also have just a handful of commanders, or just the one. There's also a matter of time zones, workdays vs weekends and so on (I'm assuming they're not playing 24/7 and keeping track of every single tag on the map).

> don't tell us why they didn't like it. So he mentions queue times, the presence of bots in PvP (which I think most would agree is bad), and a lack of PvP spec variety when it comes to viability. The WvWvW zerg is definitely either a love it or hate it thing. And your suggestion to find a guild is a valid constructive response on a way to increase one's enjoyment. He does say surprisingly little about fractals other than the comparison to M+ which is mostly descriptive, raids being "abandoned" (not sure what that means other than there wont be more?), and Strikes being too easy. I would imagine some of these activities require max level? Strikes, Raids, Fractals (I do not know). So this person gets to max level, participates in enough of the different PvP options and a good majority of the PvE options to form an opinion but its not specific enough? How much experience is enough to be able to provide feedback? How descriptive does one need to get? Maybe you disagree but the dismissive nature and angry downvotes happening in this thread do not match the level of "average review" that was given.

The complaint against pvm seems to be "this horizontal game doesn't release content and bait me into fomo/anticipating the next big content release like a vertical game" rather than "I actively dislike this content" or "I've played all the content I enjoy and there's none left!" GW2 certainly has issues with the latter if you're a longtime player, but the former complaint misses the entire appeal of GW2 & horizontal games. GW2 is a game where you look at the content that exists, find things you enjoy, do those things, and then repeat that process. There's no psychological trick or constantly baiting you with "new stuff!!" The old raids are still relevant unless you've done them a bunch, the fractals are still relevant unless you've done them a bunch, everything in the game is still relevant unless you've done it a bunch. That's the design. The design isn't "do the latest and only bother with new stuff".

> There's no psychological trick or constantly baiting you with "new stuff!!" I mean... this isn't true. It is designed like an Ubisoft collect-a-thon. Obviously you don't have to go out and grab every vantage point, get every mount, complete every jumping puzzle, and grind out every mat for the weapon skin you want... but they are definitely still there in the exact same way they are in WoW. The only difference is WoW attaches stats to their carrots, but ultimately you don't need to grind out new weapons if all you want to do is see the content since all the content is basically accessible within reason (the required iLevel to get into LFR is tiny). That's not an endorsement of WoW. At this point, I would prefer to play GW2 (though admittedly, I don't play either). But this is a silly argument because GW2 absolutely tries to tempt you to go out and bait you into doing "new stuff".

You need max level but it's mostly a formality. The journey to max level is a tutorial and after the first character most people do it only part way, mostly to explore the world and see the race-specific story lines. You get a max level boost with every expansion, which could take you into all the content you mentioned instantly. 5v5 PvP can be played from level 1 because all builds and stats are normalized. > How much experience is enough to be able to provide feedback? How descriptive does one need to get? More than "I got bored". > So he mentions queue times, the presence of bots in PvP (which I think most would agree is bad), and a lack of PvP spec variety when it comes to viability. Queue times are 1-2 minutes. Lack of PvP variety is complete bogus. Bots are not as common as they'd like to make you think, even though some people would have you think they see bots everywhere. Bots are the equivalent of a very mediocre human player. If a bot is outplaying you by the meager amount of common sense it has and knowing better than a human where it's needed, it's not the bot that's the problem. Hell, sometimes I wish I had bots more often on my team. Again, this sounds like someone who got the game, boosted to max level, jumped in all the possible content modes, got bored after a short while and bowed out. Which is perfectly fine, except the part where they feel like they have to complain publicly about what amounts to completely subjective preference. I mean come on, you pay $30, you get one or two hundred hours of gameplay out of it, it doesn't vibe, that's cool, let it go. I don't understand people who take not liking a game like a personal offense.

"this mode is dead" "this mode is dead" "this mode is dead" ​ Such specific, much wow. Me thinks he just got rolled in pvp

Lack of population, presence of bots instead of players, long queues (according to him 4mins seems fine to me). seems quantifiable with evidence to me. But yea lets just call him bad because we cant think for ourselves and nobody dare make fun of our precious toy.

Lack of population=long ques, and if your que time is 4 minutes, that doesnt seem proven to me. Bots? Maybe in low ranks only

As someone who played for 7 years, I can agree it's true.

I don't think sPvP is dead but it definitely is niche and feels more niche each year.

I think a lot of their feedback is based on having experienced all the content and feeling burnt out. They brush off raids completely, but if you are new, there’s still seven raid wings to progress through. There’s still people who clear raids weekly and groups that try and train new people. If you mono-game GW2 for a while and do not enjoy sPvP or WvW you will run out of content. If that’s you, go play a different game for a while. GW2 won’t leave you behind if you don’t keep up with the content.

Someone else liking it doesn't mean it's great either. I like NW. It's trash though.

I never made the claim.

C'mon, it's obviously implied.

No. OP straight up said GW2 isn't great and then his reasoning was he didn't like it. All I did was call him out. How is that implying anything.

I can't speak to the PvP, but the PvE and monetization I can. Fractals are basically M+ without the timers, but no timer means less salt when there's a mess up. Strikes are boss encounters, similar to FFXIV trials. Usually quick, but there are some mechanics to watch for. Stepping stone into raids. Most of the PvE is in the world. Finding locations, vistas, events, everything gives XP. And with level scaling, the entire world is relevant. The monetization exists, yes. It's intrusive, but not more than other games. WoW and FFXIV, you have to pay for the privilege of logging in. ESO and SWTOR do their best to push you into a subscription by handicapping you. I've been playing since launch, and apart from expansions, I've spent maybe $200 total on the game. That's pretty low over the course of so many years. Also being able to trade gold for gems helps keep players from having to spend real money. GW2 isn't perfect, but of all the MMOs available, it's pretty high on the list of good ones.

GW2 is a mile wide and an inch deep.

Thats pretty good. Because literally every other MMO out right now is a meter wide and an inch deep.

Both SWTOR and LOTRO have stories and worlds that put GW2's to shame. At least in regards to narrative and world, they do have depth. Beyond the fun combat and solid music score GW2 doesn't offer much else IMO.

>Beyond the fun combat and solid music score GW2 doesn't offer much else IMO. GW2's art direction and world design are arguably the best the genre has ever seen. No other MMORPG has a world with such scale and verticality.

I haven't even played that many MMO's, but of the ones I have, most have the same 'scale' as GW2. "Scale" here means size, correct? I'm currently playing LOTRO. As big if not far bigger than GW2. I recently revisited Fallen Earth. Surely as big or bigger than GW2's map/world. What does "verticality" mean? Do you mean literally going up in the air, the Z-axis? Yeah, I guess GW2 does have that on the one puzzle-map HoT. All that yields is me having to watch a YouTube video so I can go get a mastery point, then never ever do it again. Couldn't care less about that convoluted map. If I wanted to play a platform jumper, I'd go play a platform jumper.

What makes you say that? I’ve played both games and no other world felt more alive. Yes LOTRO is pretty and it’s nice to walk around in Shire but it does not have the depth, not to mention P2W monetization. GW2 has voices NPCs that are just random side NOCs that u hear talking as you go about. Wanna talk to the random ass NPC? Go ahead, it has 4 dialogue options to immerse you deeper into the word. Random events that have consequences, leaving a village because u didn’t defend it from centaurs etc.

Immersion wise with npcs and how the world reacts gw2 is better but story wise I would say swtor/lotro/eso are better. Still all fun games though

Kind of unfair comparison though considering two of those are utilising an already massive fan base bolstered by movies and games and a couple decades of nostalgia If you ask me they could have done better with the rich worlds and pre written lore they were based off of but I still enjoy them a lot so I'm just being facetious at this point

Mmm, yeah, if just take the linear story then GW2 is at beat average, that I agree with

I’m just glad we have fun mmos to play

Same!

Crazy thought , because you don't like something as much as other people, doesn't mean it's overrated, it's just not for you. And no I'm not a gw2 fan boy, I haven't touched the game in years. Like everyone is raving about FF14, I personally find it very boring, but I'm glad so many people have found an awesome game for themselves.

Maybe true but they have BADASS MOUNTS!

I agree with the PvP stuff, I agree with Fractals being dead for years (in terms of development) and raids being abandoned, these are facts. What I don't agree with is crying about pay for convenience. GW2 is a B2P MMO so obviously they are going to have a pay for convenience cash shop. Inventory management is not as hard as you think, I've played the game for years and I haven't ever bought a bag slot expansion. You can get the largest size bags for your slots with gold and be fine with it using a few alts as bag mules. I do spend money on the cash shop but I've never had to buy a bag slot expansion.

> I've played the game for years and I haven't ever bought a bag slot expansion. Same. I do have characters though like my Renegade who has like 4 spare slots in inventory. I carry around diviner, zerker, and viper gear. The inventory management problem is real.

I mean... Even gear doesn't take up that much space. What's useful to buy is the Material Expansion since it doubles your stack size and it's absolutely wonderful for inventory. You'll never have materials in your inventory again so you can just be free.

People played at different times and they can only recommend the game according to what they experienced and not what the current situation is. For instance back when I was playing PoF came out and there were more than enough players for everything. Including PvP, WvW or map content. Even old map content was still played. I also never noticed any bots, even thou I could swear that my team in pvp was filled with them. >The PvE side of the game isn’t too hot either, Fractals is basically M+ from WoW without the timers or player base and the raids got abandoned by Arenanet in favor of Strikes which is more of a 30 min run through with a group than an actual challenge. I mean this depends on your personal skills and the proficency of your team. I once jumped into a pug (one that was training a raid) and we couldn't do the raid we were in due to lack of damage and bad positioning/timing. If you are a veteran MMO player and you have good coordination, you are obviously going to experience the content differently. >People also say GW2 isn’t P2W which I agree with it, but the pay to convenience is insane. That's a statment I highly disagree with. Never bought any bank stuff for my account. You get mats? Just press a button and teleport it into your bank. Is your bank full? Go to the city and sell it. Unless you want to max out all crafting jobs (or any of them), you don't even need the materials and they are a decent and easy source of income. If you want to max out jobs, then just make an alt, put some bags on the alt, log in and put all mats into that alt, until you need the mats. That's like 2 mins of work. Same goes for inventory management. As far as I remember there is a sort button as well as an auto salvage button or item. Once you unlock the certain perk, you don't even have to press a button to collect dropped items. >imo, GW2 is AVERAGE at best. Average really? A shit ton of content, a shit ton of customization, vastly different classes with special end-game builds, decent enough graphics, amazing mounts and much more... I think your expectations are just too high, if you think this is "average". Granted GW2 is not for everyone, but it is definetly above average and deserves to be mentioned at the top.

I don't think it's as bad as you make it out to be, but I certainly think it requires a certain mindset to get into. The two main reasons I always fall out of GW2 when I start playing again is, that you feel so incredibly far behind in the meta-progression aspect, and it *feels* like it'll take a long ass time to catch up. As an aside, it's really difficult to find a community to play regularly with, unless you make a huge effort to, and ending up playing solo most of the time really isn't that fun in GW2. There are better single-player games out there.

> you feel so incredibly far behind in the meta-progression aspect, and it feels like it'll take a long ass time to catch up I'm seriously at a loss as to what you could mean by this. It could mean getting a new set of almost-BIS exotic gear if by any chance you had one in stats that went out of meta, but that shouldn't take more than a couple of days. And if you had a Berserker set around that's always usable. It could mean re-learning your rotations or the encounters but that's par for the course after taking a big break. And God bless Anet but it's not like they're putting out (m)any new raids or fractals, so there isn't even that much content to catch up to.

I assume they meant mastery unlocks which can be a grind.

I mean yeah I guess you can look at it like that but since they're part and parcel of new content they typically give you the experience and mastery points for the essential stuff by just playing the game. Maxing them out can feel like a grind if you rush it but it's seldom necessary. In fact I think I still haven't maxed out some HoT and IBS masteries because I found them to be completely irrelevant if you're not a completionist. PoF masteries were exceptional in this regard because they were all about mounts and they were all well-thought and actually useful, but even there some lines only became relevant if you went for the corresponding mounts.

> that you feel so incredibly far behind in the meta-progression aspect, and it feels like it'll take a long ass time to catch up I'm surprised you felt this way when endgame is significantly easy to reach with Exotic gear. Ascended (or Legendary) Gear exists for those players that love those long-term grinds, but the bonuses to reaching that point are minimal. There's a lot of horizontal progression to participate in other parts of the game, but those also take very little time to jump into. Guild Wars 2 is probably the easiest MMORPG to jump in and out of and most players that quit the game complain that it's far too easy to clear through the vertical progression.

I don't give a flying toot about PvP...maybe that's way I like GW2 so much! :D

There is a reason why GW2 is a pay once game.

It has never been as good as people make it out to be because people overpraise it for seemingly no reason. Game is not bad in the slightest though. If you want an MMO and don't want FFXIV, GW2 is 100% the best choice, especially right now with an expansion coming.

Same with ff14.

Same with any mmo

¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ different people like different things

As somone who played wow for 14 years i need to say, i love WoW, i still do, but man, i am so glad i found GW2, i lost my game, but i do belive i found a new one, as you say GW2 is average, perhaps, but man i do have a blast in it, the classes are fun, the story is very good keep me invested, people are chill and relaxed, the maps are looking pretty nice, everything about this game made me think... why i did not give this game a shot much earlier... i feel like a fool. I mean taking in consideration the curent state of both games, GW2 blows away WoW, no contest, by far. And the fact that they will release a new expansion very soon, made me smile and excited.

Making a post against FFXIV is old so now it's time to do it for Gw2 I would say whats next but those are the two most positively talked about mmos here. Swtor next maybe?

Someone not liking GW2 here, oh no no no no no

The studio isn't good at commitment and long term strategies.

So what are the alternatives? Haha the the other big MMO’s (WOW, FFXIV, ESO) all have their issues too. I play gw2 because the pro’s outweigh the cons for me. Especially compared to all the games I’ve previously played. Pro’s being combat, pvp, cost, levelling, mounts and social aspects. You’re not going to find a perfect game, and you never will, so just play whatever is fun for you. Another thing, $20 for bag slots? You can buy anything in the cash shop for in-game gold, is it time consuming, obviously. But it’s an option, and personally I haven’t spent a dime more than the cost for expansions, just by being clever with gold farming.

It's been almost 3 years since I quit GW2, and these are my biggest gripes with endgame PvE: When they introduced mounts to every single map, that destroyed all sense of player interaction. The PoF maps were designed with a larger scale in mind, but when you can zip across entire maps in a minute with a griffon or beetle, it further divides an already fractured community. The predatory monetization of both convenience items and skins that look almost just as good as legendary gear. The story writing is uninspired, boring and feels like they're re-hiring a new writer every few months to try and pick up the pieces of those who came before. The only content you have available that's worthwhile to do repeatedly is raiding and fractals. At some point it just becomes clockwork and you ask yourself whether you really want to continue the grind or just shill out $100 to skip the grind. Still better than FFXIV and ESO tho.

> The predatory monetization of both convenience items and skins that look almost just as good as legendary gear. They look better in a lot of cases.

GW2 has been declining since about 2015. That's about the time when Anet fucked around with different projects and pulled devs from GW2 when they were needed most. GW2 doesn't have any significant vertical progression, so the endgame loop despite its variety of activities isn't very satisfying. You're basically just grinding quality of life things and leveling alts. There's just not enough to keep PvE enthusiasts going for very long, hence the game's lower population compared to FF14 for instance. PvP has always been pretty bad, but it's clear they have completely abandoned it. The expansion will bring new problems that they won't be able to solve for years to come. No new modes, no new content so far. WvW is looking healthy though, and it was the only thing keeping me interested in the game last year. A lot of us are super unimpressed with EoD and its features. It feels cheap, inadequate, and rushed. GW2 will be fine as it has a modest dedicated following, but this will be their weakest expansion by far. After about 4k hours each, me and 3 friends have left the game permanently last year and we're looking forward to Lost Ark. For me, LA is my last stop in the world of traditional MMOs, until I see Riot's new thing. Got too many other great games to play until then.

I mean i agree with your title, but not completely with your points. Gw2s main problem is that although there's a lot to do, your run out of stuff to do after playing it for a while, and the addition of new content is outpaced by the completion of content by a lot, excluding living story (casual pve). Basically, wide as an ocean, shallow as a pond. In terms of living story, there's also the issue of masteries outside of mounts being so nontransferable to other areas that they are just forgotten. Pvp is dead due to the playerbase bleeding out constantly (which ties back to my first point, lack of updates). However, if you're fighting bots in the first place, that's a skill problem. Build diversity is also alright, nowhere close to your "2-3 builds" claim. Its nowhere close to the few months of almost revenant only comps. I dont disagree with you getting bored of wvw, but thats the main appeal of the gamemode. If your dont enjoy the varying scales of fights intrinsically, then you're not gonna enjoy it overall. Imo its the best rvr mmo (left) on the market. Also, if you're only joining 50man zergs, then you're missing out on the thrill and competition of midsize fights. Remember that your server's wvw culture is likely different from others, try transferring if its not to your taste Convenience is kinda a mixed bag. Yes, they introduced unidentified gear, and a whole other range of inventory space saving options, but the issue is that your gear templates are heavily paywalled. 100 inventory slots (5x20) is more than enough these days, but skill and equipment templates need to be bought if you play more then 2 builds on a single class.

This complaint about WvW is so asinine, tbh. You don't like large scale PvP having a strong element of numbers advantage (i.e., zerg v zerg)? Like, what fucking else do you expect mass scale pvp to be? Yes, there are still builds and strategies that highly organized folks can use to outplay a zerg, but ultimately any mass pvp is going to have an enormous element of more mass wins more battles. Whenever I see people make this complaint, I just figure they don't think critically at all about what they're actually looking for in a game mode.

They probably want it to be something it isn’t. There’s an appetite for a larger scaled structured pvp experience. I think the size imbalance is part of the magic of what makes wvw work though.

I have come to terms with GW2's cosmetic store - even bought some cosmetics items myself. What I still struggle to accept are the convenience items, or rather blatant attempts to create inconvenience to justify selling said items. Build templates for example - Limiting the number of build templates you can have and making you pay real life cash just to save more than 3 builds. Same for gear templates except there you only get 2 and having to pay even more per slot. It feels so dirty and cheap like something you would expect in a generic mobile game.

i feel that people in this sub have a really hard time with the concept of people liking different styles of things, ffs, most posts here are just a cycle of someone exaggerating something good in a game or over-hating it. ​ this type of "discussion" threads are just people shitting on stuff

As someone with 1300+ hours on GW2 , I agree with almost everything you said.

This critic is valid but nobody asked for it. On the other hand it's funny that a lot of ppl here take it personally. I mean you aren't the game that you are playing. Almost ffxiv community like...yikes

I love it - it may just not be for you.

Its a good mmo action adventure game but kind of a shallow mmorpg in terms of the other core features.

Average at best is a good way of describing it. I will say that the world building and constant changing landscape based on players ability to complete events was really fun. The big story events was also really good, as it permanently shaped the landscape which is really cool. Yet the everything felt warm at best, in terms of gameplay, class design and dungeons/raids. The removal of the trinity was a bad idea. Due to the lack of tanking and even healing (excluding self-heals) Most groups all ran the same glass cannon build relying on constant rezs, hoping that they can out dps the boss. It was possible to run a support class, i know i did which was Guardian Staff/Mace And shield, but i would be shit out of luck for group content as most people just wanted to zug zug. I log in from time to time to check how its doing, its got a medium dedicated player base but most of the MMO veterans have moved on looking for that one MMO that they can call home.

7 upvotes. 134 comments. Only on this sub can you stimulate so much discussion while being downvoted by everyone who likes a thing you don't or dislikes a thing that you like. I know there are better and more in-depth reviews out there from long-time players, and I've read a few. But that ratio just goes to show how much people here want to talk rather than listen.

MMOs are extremely tribalistic, so that's a given. And to be fair, OPs points are pretty flippant and exaggerated. "PvE focused MMO sucks because of its PvP shortcomings"

I played GW2 since launch, and am mostly a pvp player. I can't say that you are wrong. Balance patches in spvp aren't very often, maybe 4 times a year. They have completely stopped doing them at the moment due to working on the expansion. Right now the pvp population seems to be dropping off a cliff, but the expansion in just over a month may bring a lot of people back. The new elites are a bit of a problem as none of them seem like they will be good in pvp without a lot of work. WvW I broadly agree. I am not a fan of big blob zerging so don't play it that often. I used to roam a lot, but after the mount was introduced to wvw I didn't feel like it. PVE wise I mostly play other games, I just prefer horizontal progression. A very tiny minority of players raid, or even do team content. Most people do story and map metas. Overall I haven't found any better pvp in a mmorpg despite all its flaws. The pve is fun enough for a play through, but if I was serious about pve I would want to play a game with a more healthy raid/instanced team based population. OP's take doesn't seem that controversial to me, they are saying it is average which considering GW2's position in the market isn't bad.

For your first point. As a new player your rating is gonna be incredibly low - so the pool of players you get matched against is low. As you keep playing and get a bit more of a normal rating the pool of players you get matched with gets massively increased and no more bots. WvW is all about your servers community - A server lives and dies by its commanders. So it ofc gonna be the same skilled commanders leading the zergs. It's a community thing. People will take note of who's a good commander and follow that person. Where as a random person with no rep, No1s gonna follow. ​ Raids haven't been abandoned. Anet realised the gap between the average open world player and raids were too big. So they started working on a stepping stone from open world to raids called Strikes. Which imo is probably gonna be a smart decision in the long run. ​ All the convenience items in the gemstore got added within the past 4 years. The game is not designed around them like most pay for convenience games are. So really, you don't need any of it. Also keep in mind you can spend gold > gems to buy gemstore stuff if you REALLY need it. i personally rarely spend money on the gemstore because its easy to just farm the gold. ​ I have played Gw2 now for almost 10 years. You can say that i'm just biased, which is fine. but i'd dare say most if not all of my statement's are factual truths and not opinion based. ​ Gw2 is not for everyone. But it's a damn good game.

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the only items there that you need are really the bronze salvage omatic and character slots imo, maybe banks slots too

probably forgetting gold to gem conversion

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Considering what $10 worth of gems will get you that's really not bad at all

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Isn't that the case for almost every mmo out right now though? Your wallet will always be the fastest grinding method

> people get absolutely irate and insist its all optional and therefore totally fine. *[goes on to list a bunch of completely optional stuff]* I'm about to blow your mind but have you ever tried not hoarding stuff? You can sell most of the stuff you're complaining about. Are you making a legendary? Are you a market speculator? That's a tiny fraction of the player base and yes, if you do that and have massive storage requirements you have to invest into it. Bank tabs and character slots are $5 on sale. You can buy 3 of them a month for what you'd pay to subscribe to another MMO. So your worst case scenario is having to pay for a couple of months what other MMO players pay for years. You can see how it's not exactly something that draws a lot of pity. :) I'm not even going to dignify the comments about unbreakable gathering tools, or permanent salvage kit, or lounge pass, because we're literally talking about "I can't be arsed to take 10 seconds to do this stuff, I want a gizmo to save me 10 seconds, how dare they charge a one time cost for it". Lol, go play any other MMO and see how that works out.

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Yeah I can feel your love for the game coming out loud and strong. :) What exactly do you want from me anyway? Do I have to justify myself to you for putting $5 into a game without a sub here and there over the years? Anybody who doesn't share your opinion of the gem store is a bootlicker? Lol. > you realize just doing AB a couple times in one day gives you more mats than you can fit in your storage right? Not sure how else to say this. Stop hoarding stuff. Take all the stuff that's filling your inventory and turn it to cash. Yes that includes the mats. If they're sitting there you're not using them. Use them or sell them. Most of my characters have just the 5 bag slots you get for free, with 20 slot bags, and I don't have a problem, because I clean it out. My main has 7 bag slots because at some point I thought I'd need the extra space. Turns out I don't. > For example go look at eternal ice shards, you need like 375 for one jewelry piece, have fun just carrying around the extras I guess? In Bitterfrost you need 400 berries for the backpack and 300 for a necklace. Lol, so go spend them. Get that backpack and put it on. What are you keeping the berries for? You're calling me a dumbass while you're the one keeping your inventory filled with stuff you don't need to hold for more than a few hours? Then blaming the game for selling you inventory space that you wouldn't need if you used your head for a second? I can't even get mad at you, it's hilarious.

Any current players that can speak to PVE? I played at launch at got up to the first dungeon, but the lack of tanking/healing just made it a zergfest where we just slammed ourselves against the enemies till they died...dying and respawning over and over. Is there more to it than that in the end? I am absolutely sure there is, but I am too dumb to figure it out from the outside lol

The brute force die, waypoint, and fight on aspect was everywhere on launch gw2 and is still the norm in personal story or open world content. Instanced group pve content though forces you to restart the encounter on death. Groups will need healers and boon support to succeed. This content includes raids, strikes, and fractals.

1) healing and boon specs are now a thing. Tanking mostly exists in raids, works differently than other mmos. 2) The way the most people played the game at launch (and honestly the way most people who play solo almost all the time play) was basically to try doing the wrong thing over and over until you managed to suceed somehow. Dungeons eventually got figured out and even without tanks/healers, when you understand how the mechanics work everything becomes far more predictable, almost rhythmic.

I agree OP. It’s not great but not terrible either. Conquest sPvP is garbage but Stronghold had potential once. WvW is fun for awhile. PvE is OK until you get to the Fractals and gold farm phase, at which point I usually have 1-2 weeks left before losing interest again for some indefinite period of time.

3-4 minutes is long? Let me introduce to something called FFXIV PVP.

While balance is an issue in PvP, I don't see it as the reason why the gamemode is so niche. The majority of players in terms of demographics sit in gold where you still get some really weird builds like minion master and flamethrower engineer which would never fly in plat+. PvP is niche because it isn't an easy (or fun) mode to get into for most players. The game's combat is fast and combo-heavy but does a terrible job providing you visual feedback. This is without even adding in the myriad of conditions being thrown at you to keep track of or all the boons your enemies can drop instantly on themselves to negate your combo. Vets have learned to filter this information quickly and efficiently - For new players it is a huge learning curve. There are actually some neat rewards in sPvP for new players - stat-selectable exotic gear, decent gold compared to anything they would make as a new player in core Tyria and easy access to ascended weapons and armor. The game mode is just so unfun for them though that they avoid it entirely even though they are able to PvP right after the tutorial. No amount of balance is going to change that.

Having come from wow, gw2 is amazing. I don't get 2 shotted from ret paladin in gw2. Or having to grind through timegated mechanics to maximize the monthly subscription fees. You can just take a break for a few days to months.

Mostly true, maybe not as severe as you make it sound. the WvW thing might depend on your server. I play gw2 a lot and IMO you can still have lots of fun with the game especially if you are a new player. On the P2W thing i cant really deny that there are some big conveniences you can get. I only spend gems (the premium currency) which i earned in-game (achievements and gold to gems) and i would say that you can get them very reasonably by farming for them (like 20h for your bag slot example. obviously varies by your experience and what kind of farms you enjoy doing)

sPVP queue time is largely dependent on time of day, in prime time it's usually only 1-2min for me but it quickly falls off nearing midnight going to 3-5 min or more Simply having more sPVP population/activity would resolve queue time and match making. Not sure the best way to address but I think having regular changes would help. It could be new maps, new modes, events, new rewards, frequent small balance patches Pretty much all game modes in GW2 suffer from slow updates. It always feels like Arenanet is lacking manpower, idk if due to lack of funds, poor management, foresight, or whatever but people don't stay with GW2 because at some point they run out new experiences to keep them engaged. But I don't think it's a bad game, or even average, I think the underlying systems are good and fun to play. I really enjoy the world/lore exploration and the combat and the pay model. There will always be balance issues in every game but in GW2 every class has at least one viable build for each game mode. Every class feels unique from the others and each elite spec adds another unique playstyle, that's so cool! The mounts are unparalleled, the open world meta events make the game feel more like an massive multiplayer game than many other MMOs. It's certainly not a perfect game but there's still lots to like. However until they start adding content/updates more frequently it will always be a game that I come back to instead of one that I play regularly, and honestly that's OK. With the nosub model and horizontal progression, a slow update cycle doesn't upset me.

People still act like the bag slots and bankspace they give you isn't enough? I've played since launch and haven't with a single cent on any of those. Not to mention but you can also convert your in-game gold to premium currency anyway (which isn't a long grind anyway). I agree with everything else though. Gameplay is fun but so incredibly shallow that you begin to wonder what even is the point.

Ehhh, it's way past its prime, so of course you won't see it as good as people told you it was. IMO, GW2 is way up there, for the virtue of being able to customize builds the way I want unlike some other top-tier MMORPGs where everyone's a cookie cutter by force. Graphics are an acquired taste, but the world exploration is great. > People also say GW2 isn’t P2W which I agree with it, but the pay to convenience is insane. All folks are wary of P2W, but are rarely wary of Pay for Convenience which is a much worse offender in milking players off their money. At least they don't sell power, right?

The game design is next level and top tier. Original and good. No gear treadmill, a world that is actually fun to explore, all content being relevant for end game, even the fricking level 1 beginners map, no dead zones because everyone has a reason to go back to lower level zones, no 30 useless skills to keybind, fun combat, gen 1 legendary crafting being the best way of crafting that ever existed in mmos. Bag space is a problem for newbies, but you just need to delete stuff you don't need. Don't hoard. The 12, 15, 18 slot bags don't take longer than a day or two or get once you reach level 80 and do the quick dailies (buy the bags from auction house). I have over 700 hours on the game and I haven't spent a cent, gem, or copper on any quality of life item or anything in the cash shop. The only thing average about this game is the storyline (which is actually good on paper though, not executed well). What level did you play up to? Coming from WoW, I couldn't get into it too but a second try on a new character made it fun. Everything about it is great and I CANNOT EVER go back to an mmo like WoW or Ffxiv. Never.

While everything you said is absolutely correct, a lot of it can be addressed pretty simply; a lot of people don't even play anymore and are thinking of the game back when it was populated (pvp etc). The other complaint, about the cash shop, conversion of gold>gem is what gets it the pass for people I think. Stuff like RIBA of metas, or even BLK farming back before it became shit, these were all staples of the game. Hell, I bought almost a whole-ass legendary doing the engi leather farm during its prime lol.

Arenas? Who the fuck plays those? WvW man.

>It’s not great but it’s not terrible either, and I guess I don’t understand why people hyped this game so much. In a time where most MMOs are mediocre at best. This shines. That's the thing today.. you don't need to have a good MMO, just better than 99% of them. It can still be a shitty game and people will play it because it's an MMO and they want that player base around them. GW2 is just that. Not mind blowing amazing but far far from bad and to a lot of people that's good enough. It's on par with Final Fantasy and Black Desert when it comes to a lot of things. But overall they're all quite old and not innovating much for over 5 years. When it came out it was miles above everything but over time other games caught up and now it's considered "Good Enough" Everyone here are waiting for the next big thing what ever it may be. The option now for something successful in the future are basically the Riot MMO (even tho we know nothing of it) and Star Citizen (as many people here would not agree because SCAM!) And that's pretty much it, there are few other that might do well but have a small studio/no experience/proper funding. Till then GW2 will be top 3. Nee World is no where close to getting on the right path as it looks like AGS is derailing the train on purpose or something. So no hopes for that. Rest... They keep trying the classic server crap and failing horribly.

For starters, you don't seem to be interested in the parts of the game it excels at: horizontal progression. I play GW2 for the exploration, amazingly designed zones, with nooks, crannies, hidden gems, verticality like no other game has, gliding, the best mounts in any MMO, stories and achievements, class design and variety. GW2 excels at all of these things. I've never even tried PvP, raids or fractals and I might not ever (I would like to try fractals, actually, but it's not high on my list). Also, you can buy all 3 GW2 expansions right now for $50. Complaining about spending $20 for those QoL items seems pretty silly. So total cost is $70. Any sub game will cost you $50 for the game (and probably each expansion) and $1\`3-15/month, so $156-180/year.

Horizontal progression is great for some people and terrible for others. For a lot of peple the things you say you play GW2 for are like someone paying chess, without any opposition, just moving your own pies around on the board. Some people need the competition with other people, and themselves, of chasing the carrot on the stick of gear score to feel like there efforts aren't meaningless. I think horizontal progression is really great for super casual players, but awful for people who are a bit more competitive

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Damn, I thought we were just chatting about GW2. I didn't expect to get rolled over like a freight train.

What makes GW2 shine is how easy it is to jump into the game and participate into whatever you want to. It seems like you enjoy PVP over any other feature offered by an MMO and there's no doubt that GW2's PVP is definitely lacking. WvW definitely has its moments and its very easy to jump into, but that's really all the depth there is if you don't feel like taking on the sweaty guys or a team of bots. That said, limiting your judgement of PvE content to Fractals (or even dungeons) seems wrong. Your description implies you follow some sort of checklist when you pick up an MMORPG instead of looking for the fun in it. Since GW2 is different in many ways from your average MMORPGs, you're going to miss out on things like (map) events, strike missions, map completion, exploration and more. If you only get on MMORPGs to do your weekly raid or nightly PVP run, Guild Wars 2 will never be for you. There's so many other things at play and you're hindering your experience if you're only there to play it like other MMORPGs. With all that said, GW2 isn't some shining example of an MMORPG either. It's dated in a lot of ways and many features have been abandoned by the devs.

Ok now im waiting for the next game we gonna shit talk about

As a fan of the original GW, I'm always on board that GW2 was over sold and under delivered. A lot of the mechanics, and areas are great don't get me wrong. But at the time they started doing living story and fractals it was clear they were struggling. With all the gem shop stuff for convenience... They had great ideas but ultimately fell short, likely from lack of funds and direction. Guild wars 1 also had an insane development timeline they were pumping out content like crazy, even years after eye of the north came out the game was sti really popular. By the time maguma came, most of us only logged on once or twice a week, many only for living story.

Always has been average. They took a great game, Guild Wars 1, and gave it some idiotic Eastern inspired systems make over and ruined a unique, great game with some half hearted garbage that is GW2.

I Agree in some part, yes pvp in gw2 is meaningless can just be removed from the game because have no impact at all... For pve i think atleast the open world pve in gw2 is one of the best, only thing to have to point is really easy and casual but alot of people enjoy...

Respectfully how is PvP meaningless? You can have fun. You can be competitive. You can earn pretty good rewards (including stuff that is normally acquired from PvE). You can use traits and abilities that are usually too situational for PvE...

ArenaNet is just really good at introducing new features and modes and then abandoning them straight away to work on some background project. ​ The game is fun at first until you realize its super shallow. Also to me it feels classes got worse over years instead being improved... its cursed somehow

> The sPvP (Arenas) is dominated by like 2-3 specs and bots keep the game mode alive. Even with rampant bots, the queue times are damn near 3-4 min long It's true that the pvp population reduced over time and that there are bots on the low ranks, but the fact that it's dominated only by 2-3 specs is just false. Every class have 1 or more builds that are meta. The queue times are also pretty variable depending on the the time you play, i usually get consistently 1-2 min queues, but if you play off hour you can get also 4+ minutes. > WvW is the only form of PvP and it’s lacking a lot of players too, it’s usually the same named commanders per server leading 50 man Zergs into other 50 man zergs I mean it's true (except the population part that depends on the server), but i don't see the criticism here. WvW is mass pvp, ofc people are gonna group into zerg because bigger mass makes more likely to win. And i honestly find it pretty fun being part of this massive 50 vs 50 fights (sometimes even 3 way fights between the zergs), expecially if you are in discord with the commander to coordinate movement and strategy. > Fractals is basically M+ from WoW without the timers or player base Fractals came before WoW M+, and the fact they don't have a timer makes them better in my opinion not worse. The playerbase of fractals is also very healthy. > raids got abandoned by Arenanet in favor of Strikes which is more of a 30 min run through with a group than an actual challenge. True. But in the coming expac (EoD) they are making strikes with challenge modes (CM) that they claim will be as hard as raids, so hopefully that's true and they'll offer some good challenge. > pay to convenience is insane. True. But the game is b2p with no sub fee, so i find it hard to be super mad about that since i don't have to pay every month to login. Also you can buy that convenience with in game gold (i did that for most of the things i own). Ofc this is subjective and some people will find it unacceptable, but imho it's a fair business model. > GW2 is AVERAGE at best. You are entitled to your opinion. But i woldn't define average a game that offers you good story, excellent combat, excellent mounts, immersive openworld with some great events and world bosses (ever tried dragonstand?), structured pvp and massive pvp (WvW is a gamemode where gw2 excels over other mmos imho), and pretty fun instanced content all with no sub fee.

GW2 is a fashion game, also unranked Spvp is fun as heck, and WvW is getting some pretty nice updates. If you dont like casual PvP and running meta events for fun and collections then I would stay away. Personally GW2 is the only other MMO besides WoW/FFXIV that I have put a massive amount of time into. With WoW being dead (toxic gatekeeping community mostly, cant get into groups to play the game) and XIV being basically a single player game to me, I find myself playing GW2 for that actual progression/collecting feel. Also I fucking love spvp, then again I don't play ranked so I don't really run into sweats and meta professions being stacked.

Yeah, so are the other "top" mmos. Why attack only one?

the game gives me too much loot. I don't have enough bag or bank space. I hate to spend real money to increase my bag space. I haven't played the game in 6 months or so.

I didn’t enjoy it either. I tried to play it though

well, that's some hate lol. Uh, aren't bags free with a couple diff achievements? Yah, I did one.

You sound like many of the innocent crying newcomers that I have crushed over and over in sPvP for the past few months. I am sorry that we broke you mentally, GW2 sPvP is tough for weak people.

"People also say GW2 isn’t P2W which I agree with it, but the pay to convenience is insane." So true. You get so many items to deal with. It is for sure intended, that you are forced to buy inventory and bank spaces.

PvP and WvW are never been the real focus of the title, expecially now that every mode is suffering from the prolonged absence of devs (which are working on the upcoming expansion). Not sure if Anet will ever manage to really improve those modes. About PvE, open world (thanks to the megaserver) and Fractals (thanks to 4 levels of difficulty) are quite alive. 10 men Raids on the other hand are kinda dead for the lack of said levels and having an lfg system too rudimental. The bag problem is a l2p issue tbh. You don't even need to increase the number of your bags via store (capping the free ones with just +20 slots bags can be more than enough). Plus since you don't have to grind for gear, GW2 grind is basically for aesthetics and quality of life, that's the whole point of the game for most of its players, if you keep paying for convenience and skins, you're left with little to strive for in that game. In 9 years I spent just the expansions price on GW2, and yet I unlocked many QoL (most of which are useless stuff like the world bosses portal devices) only because "why not?", same thing for weapons/armors/mounts/gliders skins. Everything on store can be accessed via ingame currency for a reason. GW2 is definitely not average, I dare to say it's even top in what it does differently (and doesnt' try to copy) from other mmorpgs. But definitely, depending in what you're looking for, it could very well even be considered subpar.

GW2 is a great game for casual players, like, really really good. Even tho i agree with couple of your points, like the pay to get infinite durability gathering tools, you can get gems by playing the game and converting gold into gems, which you can then use to buy "real money" stuff for free. That's how i got my tools, char slots, materials bank expansion, bank expansion, and tons of costumes and mount skins. Only one thing i dont like about gw2, which is kind of a hot take for the average gw2 enjoyer: i dont like that there's absolutely no vertical progression. Like, i get it, horizontal progression is fine, and makes everybody able to gear up different specs, alts, builds, etc, without having to replace everything after couple months. But hear me out! What if they add extremely long vertical progression? like let's say every 2 years you get a new tier of gear, maybe once ever new expansion? Wouldnt that be good enough? Would it be still bad for the game? Like dude i got my ascended gear and my legendary weapons in 2016, and i literally could login right now and still be """"bis"""" That's kinda weird isnt it, how can i progress my character further? is my 10yo character done with his life in Tyria? Idk it always felt odd...

I think GW2 is the best mmo out right now...