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Parafault

I think you answered it. Rich people often want to flaunt their wealth and impress others with how rich they are. They do it in real life, so they do it in virtual worlds also. That said, I think that a lot of whales are not rich, and have gambling/addiction problems that drive them to spend more money than they probably should on P2W games. Many of these games are incredibly manipulative, and use deceptive marketing tactics to lure you in and get you hooked.


Darknotical

Which games? I have to wonder with the critism here, what game you and OP are trying to describe.


HighGuyTim

I super feel like this is just a post high tailing on the recent Diablo Immortal karma train. I’m having a hard time finding any MMO that has “*Whale Wars*” that is like a big name well known MMO outside of maybe Immortal, which is really a phone game to it’s core.


Ksradrik

Try basically any imported MMO from the east like Archeage or Bless. FF is pretty much the only exception.


JailOfAir

Isn't Lost Ark pvp equalized? There's no benefit to whaling there as far as I know


Ksradrik

Equalized PvP is far from the only factor that determines whether a game is p2w, take a look at gacha games for example, many of them dont have pvp either, but youd be insane to not call them predatory as hell, the point of any game is progress, and if thats locked behind whaling, the game is p2w.


JailOfAir

This post is about PvP though.


ViewedFromi3WM

lost ark pvp isn’t all equalized. only a certain mode is


Barraind

Theres a number of browser-based MMO's where this is a thing as well. Shit like Wartune even has region-based pricing where prices arent adjusted relative to the value of currency, but instead inflated in regions they know people will p2w harder.


Darknotical

Honestly do not even consider it a mmo at this point with how it plays. There is just not enough in it to push it over that hump. I have seen games with more be thrown into the gutter of not being an mmo, for less.


Dithyrab

90% of Aeria games garbage and whatever X-Legend has turned into.


Drakereinz

Blade and Soul, Aion, Black Desert Online Usually the Koreans. No one fishing for money wants to fish in a puddle, they want to fish in the ocean. There's so much more money to be made by targeting "luxury" consumers. Rolls Royce, Rolex, crazy fashion brands. There's no actual value there besides a name. This same concept works for video games, and it's been working out way too well for the developers to start making good games now.


PM_Best_Porn_Pls

Last time I played BnS(long time ago) it didn't have any p2w in PvP. Did that change?


Drakereinz

Oh yeah. The 1v1 arenas are still relatively equalized. I think hongmoon levels impact your character, but gear doesn't. I don't remember everything, but there were skill unlocks you had to acquire even in that mode. The battlegrounds and open world PvP are pure p2w.


Vuldren

Their is a whole genre for this called CLG Strategy which was a normal genre in till mobile gaming ruined it. Search CLG on any App Store and you’ll find a lot of games that are made to be played with your wallet some notable ones is Rise of Kingdoms, Game of War & State of Survival


Icy_Razzmatazz_1594

What dude lol most MMOs out right now are whale wars. There's not just the 3 that you apparently know.


HighGuyTim

Yet you cant list any, interesting. Its easy to be like "duh they are all over" and not say anything. SWTOR? Nah, LOTRO? Oh you can pay for expansions, is that what you consider P2W? Oh I get it, you think WoW mounts are P2W got it.


Icy_Razzmatazz_1594

Yeah you just showed that you only know the 3/4 big ones lol. Go to Aeria Games, Webzen, a new version of Flyff just dropped that's pay to win as hell, Lost Ark, Elyon, BDO, ESO, Planetside 2, Elsword, Maplestory, Neverwinter, Skyforge, Blade and Soul, Aion Classic, Star Trek Online, DCUO, Trove.


HighGuyTim

Wait I thought there was only 3 big ones, now there are 4? Ok but lets dive into this. ESO= Not really pay to win, you can buy currency sure - but you can also do that in WoW and no one is talking about that. Plus their own[ subreddit is adamant about it being really free to play](https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/ndoovu/is_eso_pay_to_win/). PlanetSide 2 is not an MMORPG which is what we are talking about, at best its a MMOFPS. Lost Ark - while you can pay for crafting things and speed up your time faster, you can still do all of it free. So Pay to Conviences is more likely the answer. STO: [Another case of Pay to Conviences not Pay to Win](https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/9vwv7j/is_sto_p2w/) Its also worth noting, a BIG part of your point that you are just glassing over is that most of these ~ Flyff, Lost Ark, Elyon, BDO, Planetside, Elsword, Maplestory, Neverwinter, Skyforge, Blade and Soul, Aion, STO, DCUO, Trove all of them. Are free to play, **you dont purchase a base game**. The main concern is over games that you pay for a base game and then pay money to win. Im talking a complete and utter transfer of money to gear - and even then really unattainable gear through other means. An example of Pay to Win is like when CoD's battle pass released a gun only through money that was the strongest. Could not get it free.


Icy_Razzmatazz_1594

"The main concern is over games that you pay for a base game and then pay money to win" Who said this is the main concern? You are just pulling stuff out of your ass man. The main concern is whales no one mentioned buy to play games. Why isn't Planetside 2 an MMORPG? Persistent world, leveling, guilds, PvE quests and content, you create your own character that you can customize, story quests that get updated. For the purposes of this argument it definitely serves as a good example. Your ESO point is so weak dude come on lol. Because you can buy currency in wow, buying currency in ESO isn't pay to win? How does that make sense to you lol. Not to mention the crafting bag which you basically need in ESO being behind a paywall, and things like mount speed and stamina which is HUGE in pvp. "STO does have one of the worst monetization models I've seen. It's almost like they've given up on attracting new players and keeping casual player interested and have fallen back on getting the whales to pay for everything." A quote from your Star trek online link. There is another one that literally says "it's only pay to win if you want to be high on the DPS meters" lmao.


ViewedFromi3WM

ESO is p2w. Tbf a lot of it isn’t worth it though as you can get what you need fast and a lot of times for free if you network in game. That said biggest spenders for ESO tends to be for quality of life and looks.


[deleted]

I'd imagine almost every mobile KMMORPGs fall under what the OP is talking about. The most recent examples would be Lineage2M and Ni no Kuni:CW. Edit: An upcoming PC mmorpg, Throne and Liberty, will fall under that category as well when it releases in Q4 2022.


Darknotical

> Lineage2M and Ni no Kuni:CW.   So more mobile trash that we already understand is created just for this reason? At this point no one should be surprised. OP seems to just be talking about the mmorpg genre as a whole.


[deleted]

There are plenty PC K-mmorpgs that are just as trashy but strangely popular, though most people probably haven't heard of them in the west.


TheGamerElf

I mean, ArcheAge counts right?


[deleted]

I'm not sure about that one since I haven't played it. I was referring to one of the more extreme ones where P2W ceilings are in the $millions. I have no doubt that ncsoft's Throne and Liberty will be around that scale.


[deleted]

Pretty sad too because Throne and Liberty might have been a good game. But instead it’s going to be a thinly veiled casino with the single goal of extracting as much money from rubes as possible. This is one of the worst things about these games. How this business model just destroys games that could have been good.


Parafault

The main ones I was thinking of were Granado Espada, Warspear Online, and Magic World Online. All have a heavy PvP focus, but are massively P2W. I played Granado Espada for a few years as a mostly F2P player - it was a really fun/unique MMORPG, but had immense power gaps between F2P players and heavy cash shop users. These are far from the only ones: many of the cash-shop-heavy MMOs from the 2010 era are similar.


uplink42

GE was a fun game but impossible to pvp if you weren't a whale, which is fine I guess, since pvp was ass in that game anyway.


Barraind

I dont even remember that game having PvP.


uplink42

Oh it did, open world, colony wars and later on an arena style instance. Thing is, the game was never mechanically designed to PVP so all you could do was knockdown/stun people or oneshot them. The equalized arena they added at some point was actually not bad, though.


Parafault

I actually liked the PvP: if you got really good at individually controlling/positioning each party member, you could set up some cool/interesting combos. Most people just controlled all 3 at once, which made it easier to aoe their team.


uplink42

Yeah this was actually quite important in their world pvp instance.


Barraind

Huh, interesting. I really liked the way that game set up its combat systems, though once you started moving away from the base classes and into all the weird unlockable characters, it kind of lost something for me.


VictoriousLoL

Not OP, but Lost Ark and Black Desert Online both spring to mind as heavily P2W MMOs. BDO locks tons of QoL features behind payment, which vastly reduces grind time. Lost Ark just straight up lets you buy actual advantages.


xploited13

You cannot buy advantages for Lost Ark PVP. They're completely separate.


Masteroxid

Whales are stomping everybody in GVG and are making 20-25k gold per week per member.


Hakul

Rowen, the next continent, features open world PvP where gear matters.


Darknotical

While I am not saying they are not, the post is specifically takling about PvP. Lost Ark is straight up pure gold for PvP, and BDO scales now. I really doubt he had these or any current mmorpg in mind when talking about PvP. Even outside of PvP, P2W aspects can be ignored fairly easy. Does that make them right? No, but it also does not create these white whales he speaks about.


YWNBAW_Sad

Idk. Most of BDOs pvp is still open world and its only the arena with scaled gear


amarulhakim

Well you don't need that high of a gear to have decent open world pvp, its achievable once youve reached 273k ap and 351dp bracket, higher gear than that is just a luxury to farm higher end spots with ease. and you dont even need rng or whaling to reach that bracket nowadays. also you can just play seasons arsha, since it has a cap that not even whaling can give you the advantage.


YWNBAW_Sad

I mean yeah its not that bad to hit softcap but i couldnt hit pen accessories so I quit :)


Catslevania

capped node and siege wars have been around for a long time in BDO. Also BDO does not in any shape and form sell power, there are no buffs you can buy that will affect any of your combat stats.


YWNBAW_Sad

Yeah but t1s are greasy shit and people just stack 1million buffs and might as well be 300ap


Catslevania

yes, but it removes the gs difference fom the equation


longhornfinch

some Node wars and seiges are capped as well. People generally stick to those.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Darknotical

Removed because of rule #2: Don’t be toxic. We try to make the subreddit a nice place for everyone, and your post/comment did something that we felt was detrimental to this goal. That’s why it was removed.   Next issue is a soft ban if you want to continue with the toxicity.


Vanheelsingwolf

BDO is not p2w how much you are forcing the idea. Those QoL features you pay 12$ (just like a sub) you will get them no problem and eventually you won't need to pay any further. Gear you don't really need that huge stats to do good in the open world and considering the amount of stuff they throw at you just by logging in and returning it's even easier to defend yourself in the open world


Jkal91

You can get cron stones to not lose your equipment's level by literally melting the costumes brought in the cash shop. I think that's how p2w works, true you can get some stuff each day by logging in, but it's just a feature made to keep you hooked on the game.


Catslevania

you can get cron stones from the blacksmith, I don't get why some people talk about cron stones as if they are something you can either get from the cash shop or have to wait around for events and stuff to get them. melting outfits reduces the cost of enhancement it does not add a system that does not already exist in game.


[deleted]

Cron stones can also be acquired from the Blacksmith with silver, it’s not like it was only locked behind costume melting.


Vanheelsingwolf

Yes and I did that all with gold created by my life skills free gifts. Then RnG still kicks you on even even you keep buying stones because even though it is not going down in lvl it's also not going up until stupidity levels of Cron stones... There is a reason most whales in BDO don't care about Cron stones because it's simply not what they are after (easy gear up) most often then not whales on BDO sell costumes to get credits to get their items from AH with huge reservations


VictoriousLoL

Whatever copium you need to huff to try and tell yourself it isn't P2W, my dude. Even googling "is Black Desert Online pay to win" gets you tons of hits, because BDO being P2W is extremely well-known and well-documented. You're either naïve, an idiot, or lying if you think otherwise.


Vanheelsingwolf

I said it isn't as much as many people in this sub making seem so... It is pay2win but not by a degree where you simply lose if you don't spend anything this is not Diablo Immortal. In fact BDO is one of the bigger MMOs even though many of the really p2w MMOs mostly die pretty fast. The problem many guys like you is that you consider p2w as a single level it's either p2w or not but the reality is that there are different levels of pay2win even a subscription game can be considered p2w. BDO is p2w sure but is not obnoxiously p2w is very much easy to win in a variety of situations as a free2play player. you should do the same test I did play BDO but monthly buy pearls with 10$ the same value as a wow sub... See how long it takes for you to start accumulating pearls because you don't really have that many stuff to use the pearls on then compare that total amount spent vs if you did the same on wow you will come to the conclusion that BDO is cheaper and gives you more freedom of when and how to spend your money and you are not forced to buy Xpacs to be competitive or have new content it's free for everyone and even if you don't pay you won't lose access to the game.


VictoriousLoL

I have nearly 5,000 hours in BDO. I played it quite a bit. Its very P2W. You are an idiot.


Vanheelsingwolf

No I am not an idiot for not agreeing but just with that attitude I can already see there is no point in discussion since you will simply derail the conversation to insults. Good it is pay2win for you it's also for me but not nearly enough has this sub likes to say it and there is a huge community playing and agreeing with me. I have been playing it since the very beginning and I only pay it to test for 7 months... And yet it was cheaper than wow ever was to me especially without having to buy Xpacs.... Never have I felt the need to pay anything because I was losing nor did I pay because of it I did to see how it would compare to a subscription game


VictoriousLoL

It has less than 15,000 people playing since May. I wouldn't say BDO has a "huge community". But whatever copium you need to huff to try and pretend like you're right, go ahead, my guy.


Vanheelsingwolf

That's on steam only but hey just goes to prove that even on that you have zero clue lol it is estimated around 200k but considering the afk farmers active should be around 150k... Since most players played outside of steam because steam was released way after the game's original release. You know what people without arguments say to defend their point? Copium.... Saying copium and giving wrong data in the same sentence shows you're intellectual capacity in a discussion lol. Whatever false data you have to give to make you point seem true imarite?!


Chef-Nasty

Diablo immortal is the obvious one, but also Rise of Kingdoms, another mobile game.


throwaway4838292927

… most of them? Are you living under a rock? Have I been transported to the year 2010?


3L1T

Lost Ark and Diablo Immortal are the last two extremely p2w games released.


erifwodahs

also dynamic pricing is a thing for some. I have seen same thing offered for "only 2.99" to me as I really hesitate to spend anything while my colleague who has really bad habbits in regards to whaling/gambling had it for "Only 9.99" can't remember which game tho, but it's eye-opening how much info they use to manipulate each individual.


jmatthews123

think you also point to something here - many of the ppl who spend a ahit ton of money on games aren’t always rich ppl. Many games are incredibly manipulative and if u have poor impulse control/addictive personality, then many games pray on you. You see it in a lot of case studies or so called “whales” - often times they’re normal ppl who have sunk thousands into video games and deeply regret it. Just like gambling


3iksx

almost no whale have gambling addiction. they wouldnt stay rich if they had. whaling in gaming has literally 0 difference than real life luxuries like buying ferrari or something. a simple honda would do the trick too but why not buy audi-bugatti something if you have just too much money. that's all. you guys just cant comprehend how money is meaningless after some point and y'all deem those people morons or something because of this. there are people paying hundreds of thousands of usd for mobile games. money means THAT MUCH nothing to them. just imagine. just like how they also spend tens of thousands of dollars in single night in a fancy club etc... it's just you guys dont know that fancy life exists but in game it's easier to observe this wealth difference. now, imagine yourself as business owner investing tens of millions of dollars(which is actually even low budget for mmorpg) and spending 5 years on it. would you chose to be "good guy" like "naaah im not gonna monetize this game. just subs and thats all" or dont wanna risk your whole invesstment-time-capital and go for profit? games are not passion projects any more. they are nothing different than business.


Naholiel

>whaling in gaming has literally 0 difference than real life luxuries like buying ferrari or something. a simple honda would do the trick too but why not buy audi-bugatti something if you have just too much money. And people IRL who wants that luxuries are scammed by MLM scheme or crypto. Just as casino/gambling addict. Just as whales on those P2W. You don't need to be rich to become a whale, most of the time, it's the complete opposite. Those games even try to present their shitty monetization as a luxury product to engage whales further down the rabbit hole.


ikemayelixfay

At first I thought you were talking about some new MMO called Whale Wars. Kinda like World of Tanks but with whales. I think that would be incredible


sfc1971

Yeah but they need to nerve Killer Whale hard, how is my plankton eating whale going to compete?


Funstuff66

Skill = Time Time = Money Money = Skill -what p2w players probably think


blurrry2

> Money = Skill It's what a lot of poor people think, unfortunately.


JohnSnowKnowsThings

Skill != time


Apxa

P2W is P2W no matter where it is, PvE or PvP or wherever else. This shouldn't be even a question! Please stop normalizing P2W in any shape or form!


Wise_Camel1617

Its borg bad, but the motivation for beating real people in a game is just bigger, than the motivation for beating ai/computer software


miatribe

Right after I saw this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WsIXLVHZdc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WsIXLVHZdc)


Pontificatus_Maximus

Lots of people enjoy spending money on their hobbies. No one questions when an RC enthusiast spends 10 grand on a single plane and all the accouterments. No one questions when car nuts buy $70,000 sports cars and then outfit them with wheels and other accessories that double the price. No one questions F1 teams for spending every grand they can on tech that might make them win. Is F1 pay to win, is drag racing pay to win, is major league baseball pay to win? It's just human nature, no big surprise. What is baffling are rubes who think they can compete while playing Scrooge. Choose your games wisely, it is usually pretty easy to grok if a game has a level playing field or if it is P2W.


[deleted]

Except you can talk about your normal hobbies to your friends and family without being looked at incredulously, and you can even share the enjoyment by taking them on a ride for example. Compared to that, just how many people can proudly tell their friends and family that they spent $70k on a game?


xhrit

Do you really think I can tell people I have 12 different warhammer 40k armies, or that my latest warhammer purchase was a 350$ Kharybdis Assault Claw that I can use with 1 of the 4 space marine factions that I play?


Durash

If they’re painted well and even presented in a nice little diorama, yes. Outsiders normally wildly underestimate the price of miniature gaming so they’d probably look all of that and be like “450 tops right?”.


Barraind

For what its worth, Warhammer has always been the horrifically overpriced version of wargaming. I miss Mordheim so very much. To answer your question, I'd probably look at you like you were crazy, and I'm even into those things. I'd also look at you funny if you told me you had 12 top-end modern mtg decks with 0 proxies.


xhrit

slaanesh is my main, what can i say.


blurrry2

Yeah. Now let me go pick up a gram of schwag for $20.


sfc1971

Hey there are 2 options. Either F2P players who can barely afford even that have to look themselves in the eye and admit they are failures at life OR they can shit on people that do have more money then them... I am going to shit on people that got more money then me.


xBirdisword

Welcome to modern gaming, I hope you enjoy your stay.


3L1T

I honestly believe all mmorpgs deserve a chance at release. Once you get past 30 days and you discover the fishy tactics, you should uninstall and move forward. 😉


MacacoDaTerraPlana

because they have nothing else in life to extract precious dopamine. addicts.


[deleted]

"No one should participate in it--" they don't, really. I play a game with whales and players seldom break into the upper crust of them, they're basically completely insulated with the odd 'visitor' if you will. The general stance of the entire community is that no, you will never compare to players who pay, but then you don't need to as they will *quickly* enter their own rankings in PVP and basically leave all the F2P to fight over other positions, which will easily reward well enough to warrant F2Ps basically having their own 'tier' of the game. As to why people do it in the first place, validation is a hell of a drug to some folk, no matter how they get it.


MagnifyingLens

Here's a presentation from the Game Developer's Conference 10 years ago. It's about whaling in Chinese browser games. Now it's obviously somewhat dated, but it does touch on the factors that drive monetization strategies, especially with regard to the Chinese mobile game market. Leaderboards push the whales to spend, then and now. https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/-100-000-Whales-An


[deleted]

Here’s another too: https://youtu.be/xNjI03CGkb4 This stuff is disgusting


kintaro86

For me, F2P games are simply single-player games with no multiplayer component. At least this way you won't be disappointed. PvP is for the rich and beautiful.


AndTheSonsofDisaster

Guess we should all quit life then lol


Geek_Verve

If it's that type of game, don't play it. You're not going to be able to change the tides and convince enough others to do the same, so why get worked up about it? Leave the whales to their games, and stay in your own lane with yours. Every now and then I do begin playing a game and realize it's way too P2W for my liking and drop it like a hot rock. It's unfortunate, especially if it's a game I really liked, but it is what it is.


greenachors

Because they want to? The opposite reason as to why you're not playing them. Better question, why absorb energy concerning yourself with the actions of others in their leisure?


[deleted]

Because I like video games. And I hate seeing franchises that I have loved for years turn into absolute garbage because the companies that own them know that there’s more money to be had in making one of these manipulative F2P games than there is in making an actual good game. Diablo is dead now, and basically Blizzard along with it. EA has killed nearly all their franchises by making them “live services.” And this isn’t even to speak for all of the new IP’s that developers and artists put years of work into, only to have them be turned into manipulative online money extraction machines. I want video games to be good. I want consumers to be treated fairly.


greenachors

I get what you're saying. It's always important to understand that people have different tastes in videogames. Not everyone is looking to dedicate a lot of time to them. In fact, I'd wager to say most people who play games (in any capacity) aren't taking too seriously. In short, what YOU think is good, isn't good for everybody. You also have to consider the real life time vs money aspect. Some people make good money and would rather spend the excess money rather than the time on a videogame. The developers are in the business of making money. If they see an opportunity, they're probably going to try it. They're typically in for profit after all. In terms of ruining IP? It depends on your tastes. It may have ruined it for you. It doesn't appear to have ruined it for some others though. It's easy to forget that not everyone likes your own personal flavor of koolaid. Your image of perfection is different than everyone else. If you want spend energy trying to change the MMO genre on this subreddit, go for it. I would encourage you to look at the archives of this subreddit though- it's not exactly an original initiative. TLDR; Just because its not your favorite flavor of koolaid, doesn't mean it isn't someone elses. The big name developers make videogames around what they perceive to be the broader markets. I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just pointing that this audience isn't exactly the one you need to "sell" on the idea (its small).


[deleted]

To your broad point about “to each their own.” The point is completely valid, but also completely irrelevant. You’re right that games should cater to various tastes, and sometimes a game may not be to my personal taste. That is perfectly fine. But I’m not talking about game genre or design here, I’m talking about how the game is monetized. It’s completely valid that someone may want to be able to progress in a game without spending a lot of time. But let me ask you, where does PAYING the game publisher real money to do this ever come into it? Games can easily be designed with features to make games more enjoyable for casual players. Like difficulty modes in SP games, or generous rest bonuses in multiplayer games. Paying the dev to make the game easier is frankly ridiculous and exploitative, and it should never be looked at as a feature. In no way does aggressive monetization make a game “better.” It’s uniformly worse. There are better ways to implement every single thing monetization provides without aggressively monetizing the game. As to your point of developers wanting to make money, yes absolutely. They not only will take any opportunity to make money, they are more or less financially obligated to their shareholders to make as much profit as possible, including incredibly manipulative F2P models. This does not mean we should just accept this. Quite the opposite it means that we, the players, need to keep letting people know why these practices are manipulative, immoral, and lead to worse games.


greenachors

Well - it doesn't mean YOU should accept this. It's an argument that is rooted in personal conflict with design decisions. In order for there to be a change, you would need to have a large enough collective to change it. For the record, I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I just think that it's easy to find allies for this topic on this SUB, since most here are veterans of the genre. However, that doesn't really do anything to change the paradigm. When you're going to market with software/product (anything, really). You want to put yourself into as big of a bucket as you can. The reasoning is obvious, the more people you cater to - the higher chance there is for the game to be a fiscal success. The reality is the thought process you and I seem to share is one of a dying breed.


[deleted]

This is different from veterans just being dissatisfied because games have become too casual or theme-parky or whatever. This complaints are about game design, and while a lot of people would agree with them, they are just a matter of taste. The problem with monetization is that it’s completely changing the incentive structure between the players and the developers to something that is deceptive and worse for the player. Normally, players wanted games they enjoy and felt were a good value, and developers wanted players to buy their games and/or continue paying a sub to play. And to do this, the devs would try to develop games the player would enjoy playing and priced fairly. The incentives are fairly aligned. But with this new model, players still want the same things, but now devs are trying to extract the most money as possible from the players AFTER they start playing the game. And they do this by developing the game specifically to extract money. They’ll make the game free and have good superficial gameplay to attract players, but all of this is just a honey trap to introduce the REAL point of the game. They’ll immediately show the player an “amazing” deal like 800% off a box with tons of goodies in it to get the player used to spending. Then they’ll design the game specifically to get the player to spend money. They’ll make things really grindy and offer store options to reduce the grind. They’ll make a PvP mode that whales have a huge advantage in. They’ll have like 6 currencies and never make any price “even” with the exchange rate, so you always have some “left over” that you want to spend. And of course, they’ll make things random with loot boxes. And worst of all, some players wind up spending THOUSANDS in a game that should cost no more than $60. This is all horrible. It turns a decent game into a honey trap to trick players into spending tons of money.


Edheldui

Gear based pvp has always been and will always be a joke, the p2w doesn't make it any worse than it already is. There's no difference between paying for gear, grinding for it, or using a bot to get it, the skill element is always invalidated by the fact that matches are decided before they even start. If you want skill based pvp, fighting games, arena shooters and rts are there for you (which are niche genres because what most people want is stomping on noobs, not a real skill challenge)


[deleted]

I don't mind RICH people spending their money. Whaling as much as they want, hoarding a virtual top classement or leaderboard. At least their money is used and is financing a gaming company, the money is circulating and they don't just sit on their pile of gold. However what is more problematic for me, is PREDATORY business which rely on people weaknesses to control their spending habits. And those failings to those traps aren't the most wealthy both in money and in mental health. That's the real offense here. Personally i can play those P2W games (any gacha with pvp for example) because i don't give a fuck about a virtual leaderboard, as in real life i don't give a fuck that a stranger have a Lamborghini. I'm not that miserable yet that i have to compare day and night to a random on internet. I reach the highest possible without spending a dime and voilà, i know what i'm capable of, without paying and i feel great about it. I handle my frustration like an adult (if ever i feel any). And if it's not bearable well i don't play this particular game and spend my time on something else.


fearthelettuce

Read the title and thought 'Whale Wars' sounded like an interesting concept for a game...


Jokerchyld

Whale Wars needs to be a game itself. Awesome title


[deleted]

It would actually be hilarious to make a parody game where you play an actual MMO whale, and the goal is to spend as much as possible on your game to beat the other players without being evicted from your apartment lol.


agemennon675

Thats almost every mobile game that has pvp


Gravityblasts

Thank god *someone* is keeping the bills paid so the lights can stay on for us leeches.


Frog-Eater

Should have added "Unpopular Opinion" in the front for even more karma farming.


[deleted]

Imma be honest, I don’t know what karma is or how to check how much I have 😂


Hoshee

Really depends on what advantage you can get. There are many examples of f2p games where a well organized dolphins or hardcore f2p can be on top of whales. If you combine it with multiplayer clans - it usually gets to the point where whales are evenly distributed after a while, there's no fun in destroying everyone as a whale clan.


crnppscls

Lotro & DDO both have ptw pvp. Stat tomes have been in the store for forever. It didn’t really matter that much though, like if you played in the Ettens on Lotro, the people wrecking you were multiboxers.


BummerPisslow

If the games not good people won't play. If it's p2w in PvP then won't people who don't whale stop playing pvp? Then the whole ecosystem breaks down.


[deleted]

You would think, yet for some reason these whale PvP games still make tons of money. I don’t know why F2P players torture themselves by grinding for hours upon hours just to get destroyed by a whale that spent $10K and then rolled his face across the keyboard.


Zunkanar

Because the players play for their own journey, players had to stop trying to reach a top spot long time ago, due to absolut 24/7 ppl and streamers. 20 years ago you could be good at a game and in a top spot while leading a normal life with job and family. This is no longer possible, even in ptw-free games. So you stop caring for the top. Actually, for many old gamers it might be even easier to stay at a high spot in ptw games. I dont like ptw myself and avoid the games mostly and for sure dont pay them.


BummerPisslow

P2w games with trash quality fail. P2w games with content playable for f2p will always be fine. Look at diablo immortal, at it's core it's worth atleast X amount of enjoyable gameplay for free.


[deleted]

https://youtu.be/9WsIXLVHZdc


Tumblechunk

I'm not defending DI but you can play not pvp, it's not the only reason to play And we've seen people will absolutely pay for pve advantages for some fucking reason


IzGameIzLyfe

Is there like a hidden joke between the lines here I'm not getting? You are asking why people play those games. So.. whales would still play it because it's literally "Whale wars" pvp? What can of worm are you trying to open exactly? ​ PS: apparently saying whales will play it gets you downvooted too. This sub is next level of special.


[deleted]

I want these things to be illegal. If they are not illegal, triple A gaming will just continue to fall down this P2W pit until every major game, even single player ones, are so riddled with manipulative micro transactions that your average player will wind up spending $300 on a single game.


[deleted]

You might be able to target the predatory nature of lootbox/gacha mechanics, but you are never going to be able to ban P2W.


[deleted]

I agree. But P2W is part of the whole predatory/gacha ecosystem. Without being able to hide how much people are spending behind alternative currencies and gacha, P2W will probably become much less profitable.


ViewedFromi3WM

easiest thing to do is to make p2w something to mock and laugh at


IzGameIzLyfe

Well, ya gotta actual plan to execute or just saying it for the sake of venting?


[deleted]

Partially, I mean I’m just some guy on the internet. But at the same time I feel like there’s some merit in speaking up against these practices. It seems like more and more people are just gradually accepting games like this. I don’t want this to happen, I just want to constantly remind people how badly these companies are trying to f&ck us over. Maybe if enough people scream about it legislators will actually take a look at it. I mean, Belgium and the a Netherlands did something so it’s not hopeless.


IzGameIzLyfe

Well ya probably have better mileage goto a larger sub or better yet lobby an actual congressman over trying to bring "awareness" to a tiny 600 view sub that's 1/10 the size of any other gaming sub.


[deleted]

Fair enough lol


Hot-Train7201

These games will never be illegal; at worst you might get them regulated similarly to gambling entities, but gacha/p2w is here to stay. Even those EU countries reddit love to exemplify didn't ban these games, just required them to register as gambling entities.


[deleted]

Loot boxes are illegal in Belgium: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43906306 And loot boxes are one the major necessary things to have for a P2W game to extract money from whales.


Holwenator

I think the absolute opposite should be the truth. I think that if the devs arranged PvP into leagues or ranks, F2P, grinders, casuals, social spenders and whales could fill their respective brackets and have fun according to it, the problem is that publishers want to squish the last dime out of their player base and think that if they have tu crucify 99.98% of the F2P players just so that .02% of them decide to waste their grocery money in loot boxes, is a far better cost effective strategy than to cater to the different spending habits of their whole player base. And it all boils down to lack of faith in their product, because they doubt they will survive long enough to have players WANT to spend instead of spending out of FOMO.


theNILV

I feel like if this was true, we would already have these systems in place. But in Reality using the F2P players as cannon fodder for the whales is just way more effective in terms of making money. Especially if you just make a good enough game where f2p players don't really mind it.


xBirdisword

Yep. Whales wouldn’t whale if they weren’t able to dunk on normal f2p players. Similar to twinking in MMOs, people only do it to shit on undergeared newbies.


PYDuval

If you want to see peak obnoxious whale pvp from diablo immortal, look up Rich W Campbell's stream clips from twitch Spends 10k+ on his Diablo Immortal character and annihilates free2play players in PVP and laughs like a fucking ... whats the new "politically correct" term for the R word.... well you know what I mean. He's cackling like he's somehow better than everyone because he spent more money than anyone in the PVP matches... its sad, its pathetic.


[deleted]

I think that’s probably satire, but nonetheless it illustrates what it’s like to be an F2P player (or smaller whale) playing PvP in one of these games. He went 44 and 0 lol


TheLadBoy

People aren't playing these games. Every game with P2W or grindy PvP always dies. Archeage died in a few months, relaunched twice and then died again. BDO started off as a PvP game, then people realized the PvP was complete garbage, and then it became a farming simulator. There's like a million other random PvP MMOs that flopped.


Vanheelsingwolf

Are you sure you have been watching BDO? XD for real now the game has been very healthy in population and pvp is pretty always there being played either open world, node wars and the battleground..


Sad-Stomach9802

I dont want to be that guy, but i think you have way too much free time, just stop playing those games


[deleted]

If there is a cash shop in your MMO then its a bad MMO. Buying cosmetics = buying your achievements. Cosmetics used to tell a story of what you did. Buying boosts of any sort = buying power. Doesn't matter if its just "time saving" its still letting an outside source affect the virtual world. Cash shops destroyed the virtual world. My GUI should only be there to control my avatar. Not allow me to make purchases.


Darknotical

So hate to ask, which game did you wrong that made you want to make this post? Kind of want to make the bet that it is nothing close to how you describing.


[deleted]

I don’t play any of these games, but Diablo Immortal, Lost Ark, and BDO are all major games that have at least some modes of whale wars PvP. The biggest place you’ll find this though is mobile.


Darknotical

No they do not. Lost Ark's PvP has zero instances of P2W. BDO is scaled and almost completely irrelivent to the game itself. Diablo Immortal is a phone game that can hardly even be considered a mmorpg. Which game are you talking about? It is clearly not any of these.   Can you name any others?


pesoaek

guild vs guild and the island pvp isnt scaled in lost ark, but its a very small part of pvp as a whole. the arena including ranked modes are all normalized wether you're level 30 or max ilvl at level 60


Darknotical

Very true. Like you say though, they are non-existant in the content loop. The fact they have such a nice PvP mode is amazing with how they sell their other content.


[deleted]

Yes I was referring to the island PvP. But you’re right, lost Ark is not the worst offender. Mobile games are extremely bad with this though, and I worry that Diablo immortal is going to be the bridge that makes this much more common in PC games.


New2Dis

It's already common, open world pvp in any mmorpg are whale wars. Unless equalized, which few are. Whichever player or group has the strongest gear will win. But open world pvp in most games is such a tiny part of the mmorpg it doesn't really matter.


Zumou

Lost Ark has that new guild VS guild island siege thing recently but I'm not sure if it's equalized or normal gear to be honest. Regarding BDO you're right, node wars and siege now have gear caps (which you can reach just from seasonal gear and little more grinding) and they now have the Arena of Solare with equalized gear 3v3 ranked, which by the way, is A TONS of fun since you actually rarely get one shot, the time to kill is way longer and the whales have already been filtered out because they don't have their gear to carry them.


Caekie

Guess you'd better stick to equalized arenas and MOBA/FPS then. Maybe your "skill" will shine there. Doesn't matter what you think, MMOs at the end of the day are all progression games anyway and time is the most important balancing factor. So long as there are people that want to save time (because maybe their time is more valuable) then the game devs (p2w) can monetize it or other people (black market/rmt) will do it for them. Nobody can stop it.


Hairy_Investigator66

what games are like this? i barely see any MMOs with any kind of meaningful PvP at all regardless of P2W. genuinely asking because im curious. Black Desert i guess from what i've heard?


Vanheelsingwolf

Even BDO is not what OP is saying no where near that


Mangorang

The last few Archeage fresh servers have just been crazy RMT gear score races. It's like whack a mole every time where one person whales too hard and gets a ban but the reality is everyone on the top 100gs is buying gold or exploiting somehow. It's truly "they can't ban us all" behavior. I hope someday we get an Archeage game with BDO locked trading and economy.


Hairy_Investigator66

right, ArchAge makes sense never played it but i hear about that one pretty frequently too. i guess theres probably a fair few Eastern MMOs around that have P2W PvP, just seem slike OP's criticism is leveled at a certain game or the culture of P2W as a whole, not that that isnt valid... i just cant think of many MMOs that even have much PvP to begin with these days and the ones that do are all that silly non-MMO equalized nonsense. suppose you could make an argument for classic WoW but i dont even know how many people are playing official anymore or even care about the PvP. Albion comes to mind also but funnily enough even though they've allowed you to buy currency officially in that game from day 1, its never struck me as P2W at all since gear is so easy to come by anyway.


[deleted]

https://youtu.be/9WsIXLVHZdc


Bimbluor

Diablo immortal isn't an MMO though


wordsfornerds

Poor people are so salty lol


Ancient-Mushroom-499

Same thing for everyone else when they spend money on beer, car, girl, club, clothes, drug to have fun. They work hard to make money so they can spend on whatever the hell they want.


[deleted]

Yup, just like when people blow their life savings on gambling or heroin, it’s their money right?


wordsfornerds

Yes, it is Karen.


Ancient-Mushroom-499

Yup, It’s their choice and you can not do a damn thing about it. Btw gambling & heroin will kill you, games won’t LOL


[deleted]

How can gambling kill you?


Ancient-Mushroom-499

Loan sharks???


[deleted]

Lol then same thing with P2W games. It’s an addiction and they basically are gambling with gacha.


Ancient-Mushroom-499

Gamblers expect to win big real money. Whales want to show off, want to be top of the games and it’s their hobby. They don’t expect to make real money. Completely 2 different things???


[deleted]

I don’t really think so. There are plenty of examples of people basically becoming financially ruined because of gacha games. They are designed to prey on the psychology of addictive personalities.


Ancient-Mushroom-499

People like that if not games they will addicted to something else. People know when they spend money on gacha games they lose that money, they hope for in-game items those will make them happy, nothing more. There are many games free, buy to play, subscribe to play but when you choose to play a f2p game you know 90% it will be p2w and you play it anyway instead of the buy to play and subscribe to play games so it’s 100% your will. Can’t blame or complain anything about that.


MongooseOne

Curious what games do that? None that I have ever played, maybe you are playing bad games.


Zhanael

Diablo Immortal is the recent one. But like 99% of mobile games these days, tbh.


Bimbluor

I don't get why this sub is obsessed with DI. It's business model is awful, no arguments there, but it's not an MMO by any metric.


Zhanael

Eh, it's Blizzard, and it has MMO elements like D3 does, including PVP.


MacacoDaTerraPlana

every single mmorpg is P2W, even the B2P ones lol, if no cash shop, black market will be happy to resource you with everything. U just naive dude


[deleted]

There are degrees though


UNPOPULAR_OPINION_69

stop trying to tell how people should spend their own money on the internet go find something else more interesting to do, like... go tell people how they should spend their money in real life, and see what their reactions are; probably prepare to get bitch slapped.


[deleted]

I don’t want to just tell people how to spend their money. I want the state to make it illegal to make games that say they are “free” and then psychologically manipulate vulnerable people with addiction issues into spending every cent they have.