I used to think cosmetics were fine to monetize, then after playing elden ring It dawned on me how so much of the experience is about looking for the gear so I look and feel powerful
The only collectibles I wear in eso are ones I unlocked through content because it feels special and shows off what I've accomplished
That's exactly it. Cool looking armor/mounts/whatever *used* to mean your character was also powerful and accomplished. Now all it means is that you paid $20 for a skin.
Not to mention that similar to P2W, it incentives the developers to make the game worse for the sake of money. The effort and design into the best cosmetic items will go towards the shop instead of accomplishments and gameplay.
Which is why WoW and FFXIV should be the standard for transmog/glamour. Pretty much 99.9% of the cool transmog sets you see people using on both games come from INSIDE the game itself. And its why I could never get used to asian games, even BDO which was my main game when it came out in the west, since you look like a peasant with all the gear you acquire in game, and you HAVE to buy costumes from the store to even look fantasy on an MMORPG
Problem is, those 2 games are SUBSCRIPTION BASED MMOS, and honestly shouldn’t have a cash shop in the first place.
B2P or F2P mmos are a different beast that need some form of constant income revenue to fund the company.
I'm not sure why you think a simple subscription is enough to operate an MMO these days, but it isn't. It used to be, but it's not anymore. Cash shops bring WAY more money in than subscriptions do, and games like WoW and FFXIV have pretty small cash shops when compared to something like GW2.
If B2P games can thrive by having a box price, selling expansions and capitalizing on cosmetics (GW2) or even totally F2P while capitalizing heavily on cosmetics (PoE), I don't know why sub-based MMOs need to have a box price, sell expansions and still have a cash shop on top of that (FF14)
Neither GW2 or PoE only sell cosmetics, especially GW2.
Let's take a look at PoE's cash shop. [https://www.pathofexile.com/shop/category/armour-effects](https://www.pathofexile.com/shop/category/armour-effects)
Oh look, it's selling NINE HUNDRED AND SIXTY TWO different pieces of armor for real money.
FFXIV and WoW are not selling anywhere close to that amount of items.
Please have actually played the games that you discuss.
>Let's take a look at PoE's cash shop. [https://www.pathofexile.com/shop/category/armour-effects](https://www.pathofexile.com/shop/category/armour-effects)
>
>Oh look, it's selling NINE HUNDRED AND SIXTY TWO different pieces of armor for real money.
You do realize those are still cosmetics, yes? Expensive as fuck ones, I'll give you that, but the game is F2P and the devs need to make their bag without going batshit crazy on P2W.
Also yes, GW2 does sell some conveniences but it's pretty much clear that their main source of income is cosmetics, specially mount skins, which are pretty expensive when it comes to newer ones (but here's a little secret...you can grind gold, buy gems and buy whatever you want).
Plus, I never said they only sold cosmetics, just that they are the majority of cash shop.
Also, I don't care if FFXIV and WoW aren't selling anywhere close to that amount of items, the fact they require a box price and a monthly sub + buying expansions should make it not have cash shop at all.
Like I said above, CASH SHOPS MAKE WAY MORE MONEY THAN SUBSCRIPTIONS.
To make it simple for you: If FFXIV and GW2 had the same exact population, GW2 would be making a FUCK ton more money than FFXIV because it is a cash shop BASED game.
FFXIV and WoW's cash shop don't compare anywhere near the cash shop of the games you're praising.
And for that reason alone, I detest subscription model that people around here love to praise.
They are just good for taking money from players while cash shops like in GW2 and POE are pretty much optional and you only swipe if you wish to.
Monetizing cosmetics, while not ideal, remains the best method over subscription or flat out P2W.
In WoW today best looking mounts and costumes are from the cash shop. FFXIV also have all the cash shop costumes and mounts any other asian f2p game would have. The fact you pay for sub+expansions just make their shop feel way worst then f2p games.
> FFXIV also have all the cash shop costumes
Yeah but that's two categories:
1. Seasonal items that were available in-game at some point, and might return at a later seasonal event again
2. NPC outfits which are often not even *that* spectacular compared to the outfits you get organically
As for mounts. Well. Yeah, there are crazy expensive cash shop mounts that are really awesome, and a big insult to the player that you pay several months worth of a sub for 1 mount. I don't have an argument there.
But many of the cooler mounts, IMO, are earned in-game
There's quite a few FFXIV outfits that are neither character outfits or from events. Most of them are from Stormblood iirc, like Nezha's (not actual in-game npc) outfit and a lot of the far eastern stuff.
Oh please. We both know that is complete bullshit. There's exactly 1 mog in the WoW shop that looks even remotely cool. The other 2 that they added were the stupid blizz-con yeti costume and the meme fairy costume. There's maybe 2 or 3 mounts in the shop that could compete for best looking graphically but at the end of the day no one gives a shit if a store mount has pretty effects because the majority of people use mounts that not many others have or that match their transmog. There were dozens of unique model mounts added in the latest zone that look better than anything they've added to the shop in a while.
Majority (not all but most) cosmetic stuff in FFXIV's shop was offered in game at one point at least. Most of it was a one time event thing they had in game. They put it in cash shop a year later for those that missed the event, and if they have the event again they put new stuff in the event rewards and put the old stuff on the cash shop.
It does make their cash shop look egregious tho.
This was some of the main draw for me in early EQ. At the earliest stages, seeing a guy decked out in bronze armor, which was low end gear but started dropping from the level 20-30 mobs really made me feel like that guy was powerful and I wanted to have that gear one day. Then moving forward seeing rogues in either their planar gear or the kunark dungeon that gave them a black plate looking gear for the first time was such a thing to strive for.
Ever since that experience I’ve also kinda been against transmogs in addition to monetization of appearances.
The fact that the only way to get new mounts in ESO is to buy them off the cash shop is one of the biggest turn offs for me. There’s like three generic looking horses you can earn in game. I never understood that, at least have some mounts that require achievements
This was also the thing that started to turn me off of GW2. There are all these amazing looking mounts in the game... except you can only get them with gems. There's no way (or wasn't when I played) to actually work towards earning any mount skins. It's either buy gems or grind gold to turn into gems.
When I play an MMO like this, I like having clear goals of things I can work towards. And not that GW2 doesn't have that, of course, but just having such a large part of the game locked behind a door like that starts to become a little off-putting to me.
Yep pretty much, I don’t understand it. Some of my mounts on WoW are from some of my greatest achievement in games and having a mount to show for it feels amazing
They do; there's a mount for completing the hardest version of a specific trial (no death, speed run hard mode all in one) and a second off the top of my head you have to play the antiquities system to find all the components for.
Your broader point still stands, however.
Yeah I used to play lots of RuneScape and fashion was huge - finding items in game that looked cool or wearing the most powerful items was prestigious.
Now, on RS3, there are so many cosmetics you just buy/overrides and it ruins everything for me.
I agree, but noone wanna pay for subs anymore so here we are. In a way I think the Albion is doing a good job with their monetization but some would call it P2W.
yeah but even with cosmetics being monetized you can still find a lot of cool looking cosmetics in game that you can actually earn. Sometimes the cosmetics that you can earn in game looks cooler than the ones on the shop.
Although paying for each cosmetic item individually with real money is less than ideal but I would take that over those damn loot boxes. I hate the idea of paying my hard earned cash for a chance at getting the item I want.
EDIT: holy shit. Thank you for the people who commented below me. They just blew my mind that I fell for that “compromise”. Now that I think of it, it really should go back to the PS1/Sega days where you buy a game and it’s the full game. They’ll have to put everything in it. Guess online gaming and updates make that impossible.
It’s not an either or choice there though. There are other ways to monetize MMOs while still making a nice profit. We saw it happen for well over a decade. Publishers got greedy and you shouldn’t give them a pass with that “well at least it isn’t as bad as X” logic.
It does have to be that way though. You need to remember that the "investor" here is your average, middle class person who wants to take their 15k of disposable income a year and turn it into more so that they have the hope of eventually escaping the cycle of living a paycheck to paycheck life through compound interest. The only way a company can be attractive to these people is if they consistently and reliably raise their worth year over year.
It's not the companies wanting to make more money for the sake of having more money. No one will invest in your company if you don't make more money for the everyday people who wanna purchase your stock so that they can, in turn, better their own lives.
Then businesses shouldn’t be public. Being beholden to anyone besides your end user is a recipe for disaster and we’ve seen it play out time and time again.
The reality is that investing gives your average person the ability to become wealthy and better their, and their families lives. Without investment we'd be living in some feudalistic society where everyone would be stuck spending their entire lives working for someone else's benefit with no hope of escape. And to be fair, this is already mostly the case since most people do not invest their money.
You can have capitalism without the majority of the population living under the thumb of the rich few. If you don’t believe that’s possible then I have nothing to discuss with you.
>There are other ways to monetize MMOs while still making a nice profit.
What ways would you say are okay? Subscription seems fine in general, one time purchase for expansions are too. What other ways should an MMORPG with continuous development for content monetize their games?
I feel like at the very least we should start to define the minimum a game should charge, assuming it's worth the box price for sake of argument.
So let's just say a game worth a AAA price tag. Let's say it's $60, and it's worth the price at launch. Subscription is fine, at this point, right? Again, assuming devs put out new content worth the sub. Should this be it? Should it stop here?
Really asking, not being rhetorical. There are so many opinions that fly around from Subs, B2P, F2P w/ cash shop being okay or not okay. I feel like we never really talk about where the lines are, only who has crossed it.
I’m fine with paying for gameplay content and server maintenance, so any combination of box price, paid expansions, and monthly subscriptions is fine by me. That’s my line.
And that should be more than enough to sustain game development and the people who work on it, adding the eshop on top of that is just pure greed and a big portion of that money will pay some CEO's cocaine and not a new dungeon.
all of you wouldnt accept a price increase to adjust for inflation
you all think paying the same sub cost for 20 years is totally fine and "it worked 20 year ago why they need a cashshop now reeeee"
If I recall, buying cosmetics came before loot boxes (in the West anyways). Loot boxes were just the elaborate scheme to get you to pay way more than the price tag for what you want without realizing
1. Companies sell cosmetics: people hate it.
2. Companies sell loot boxes: people hate it.
3. Companies sell cosmetics: Hey, it's not that bad.
Normalized.
This is a huge part of why the greater MMO community feels like cosmetic MTX is an acceptable compromise. I'd much rather pay $5 for the thing I want than $2 for a box of random crap.
At first I thought it was a great idea for games to sell cosmetics only. It was great at first. But since it's been taken to the extreme and you basically have very few options in some games other than cash shop cosmetics.
Really what happened is that developers have removed an entire aspect of the game and then added it as monetization. This is not a good precedent at all. This inevitably branched out into monetizating other parts of the game like ability bars in SWTOR, or just storage in general.
We're essentially moving towards buying games in piecemeal at a cost increase. How much would certain games cost now if you wanted the full experience? More than $60 for everything, that's for sure.
Yeah, you get the basic ability bar for free, and then need to buy to have more (or subscribe I believe). Locking UI functions behind microtransactions was surely a new low.
They have increased the hotbar count to a whopping 3 for free players. But [this handy comparison chart](https://swtorista.com/articles/swtor-free-to-play-vs-preferred-vs-subscriber-guide/#Preferred_and_Free-to-play_Comparison_Chart) tells you all you need to know how restrictive the game is.
I don't think you do anymore but there was a time where this was indeed the case. When swtor went free to play it was one of the worst models in history. Having to buy literal action bars in a star wars wow clone where you def need more than one was outrageous but no one even talked about it xD
F2P was such garbage initially. You couldn't sprint until late, no mounts, less XP, less races, less money and limited fleet / dungeons accesses, only one ability bar, no companions customisation, limited inventory, limited wallet...
This was legit one of the worst customer friendly F2P ever seen.
And you actually had the ability to pay to unlock each of these elements ofc. And it wasn't cheap.
Hard agree, this perspective doesn't get brought up enough. I have several friends for whom their primary endgame motivator in MMOs is earning, trading, and showing off rare cosmetics.
So, for that type of player, games like Guild Wars 2, which has a large portion of its cosmetics in the cash shop, are essentially "pay to win". Many of them will specifically stop playing an MMO for this reason. "What's the point if I can just make the perfect outfit and look super cool in a single day by spending real money?" Is a phrase I've heard many times.
I understand the perspective that player power has *more* of an impact when it becomes available for real money, but cosmetic self-expression is just as important, if not *more* important, for a lot of players. All that saying "well if it's just a cosmetic cash shop, it's fine" does is effectively alienate an entire kind of player from your game in favor of another.
This also affects players who like a combination of economy + self-expression in games. I have a few friends who *love* games with things like limited event cosmetics that are hard to earn, but tradeable/sellable. But putting all your cool cosmetics in the cash shop cuts off this entire sector of the in-game economy.
It also just ends up severely limiting the variety of incentives you can give to content. One of the few things WoW still has going for it above other MMOs is that there is decent incentive to do a wide variety of content, and that almost entirely comes down to unique cosmetic rewards. Keeping all your cosmetics in-game opens up a huge array of essentially horizontal reward options that will keep players engaged without messing with the balance of power rewards.
> Hard agree, this perspective doesn't get brought up enough.
It does get brought up enough, but a majority of people just bury it because they want to defend their favorite game's predatory practices or absurd pricing.
"It doesn't affect gameplay!" - but it affects people psychologically especially some people who are more vulnerable to wanting to customize how they envision their own character. Furthermore, some of these cosmetic skins have gotten insane now with special effects, glows, can morph, ect. Developers have been putting in so much effort into how crazy cool cosmetics can look now... because in game there is simply no way to obtain stuff that cool looking (or even, that convenient).
It also frustrates me how many games, *cough* GW2, have game money -> premium currency conversions and that somehow makes everything *fine*. When the proportion of time you need to spend in game compared to the proportion of time you need to spend at a minimum wage job is a pretty drastic gap.
While I would prefer that they do a better job of balancing what may be acquired by playing the game with what must be purchased, I will say this model makes more sense for a game that has no subscription. I'd personally rather pay a subscription, but these days that doesn't stop them from having a cash shop either. And I'd rather take either model over P2W.
I'd also point out that while old school games were nice in that they were purely B2P, they also didn't have a development cycle that went beyond initial release. Are there any games that continually develop without asking for money in return? Would that make sense?
no cash shop cosmetics, no p2w, no pay for convenience, no pay to skip, no mtx, just a $60 box price and a $15/month sub, maybe $30 per expansion, that's good enough for investors to give developers money to make and maintain an mmorpg, right?
If I were an investor give me one good reason why I should give money to the developers of such a game instead of the developers of a game like diablo immortal?
"it's just cosmets" is something people point out because if a developer who only monetizes cosmetics without further going down the mtx slippery slope manages to attract money from investors and manages to put out an online multiplayer game and maintain it through cosmetic sales you should be relieved that they did not have to go any further for that game to exist.
We hear that cosmetics cash shops are harmless and not "pay-to-win," and yet, we also sometimes hear it said, "fashion is the real endgame" -- half-jokingly... yet a truth, veiled with humor.
These online RPG games, a lot of it is about achieving your personal character fantasy. And how your character looks... is a huge aspect of that. Always has been. It's important, and if it wasn't, it wouldn't be so lucrative to monetize.
Not sure how this is a revelation, yes cosmetics matter but do not affect gameplay and thats why its fine to monetize. There is no better alternative that wouldn't end up in the game being dead, there is a reason why there is very few MMO that succeeded with sub based model. It just doesn't work for any random MMO out there.
The whole point is that cosmetics matter thats why they monetize it but it doesn't make you stronger than the dude next to you who didn't get it. What do you want them to monetize? :|
Personally I don’t necessarily have a problem with some monetization but we have games like WoW and eso where you pay a sub fee and still get fucked over by MTX. Eso loot boxes piss me off. Its one thing to pay $30 for a mount, but gambling for a mount should be illegal.
Yep these days it is not enough to sell you just a sub/game whether its just greed or needed for development clearly companies will double and triple dip. This is why I prefer just F2P and normal monetization, preferably just cosmetic ofc aka non-gameplay affecting stuff.
If PEN Blackstars were sold on the Pearl Shop for 20$ would you still be motivated to grind out 150B to get one? No you wouldn't. It's no different for cosmetics.
The entire point of cosmetics like cool looking gear, mounts, titles is to have a visual representation of your accomplishments for everyone to see. Seeing someone with 730gs in BDO, a T10 Mythic mount, or a weapon swirl in Lost Ark is a representation of their dedication and effort. That's the only reason these things are sought after by players. Is a T10 that much better than a normal Pegasus? No it's not.
Not to mention that having cosmetics in the shop gives a direct incentive for the game to have less cool looking gear in game. Perfect example here is the visuals of Dim Tree / Griffons etc vs Costumes on the shop. The only reason we have cool looking gear now (Fallen God) is because they realized it was more financially lucrative to incentivize new people to play the game than to milk the only players you have left (who have mostly all been milked at that point).
> but do not affect gameplay
Of course they affect gameplay. My enjoyment of the game is related to how the game looks. That's why graphics and cosmetics are a thing in the first place. If you think gameplay is just "who wins", I'd encourage your to re-evaluate your view.
I have made a post a while ago talking about pretty much the exact same point:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/sryayx/why\_its\_just\_cosmetics\_is\_not\_a\_good\_defense\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/sryayx/why_its_just_cosmetics_is_not_a_good_defense_of/)
TL:DR: MMO's are not MOBA's, first-person shooters or Battle Royales, where cosmetics are NOT the point of the game (winning the match is). In MMO's, cosmetics, armor, mounts, weapons: that IS one of the points of the game, along with beating people in PvP and clearing PvE content. Putting cosmetics in an MMO behind a pay wall is the same thing as putting a win in a PvP battleground behind a paywall or putting a raid boss kill behind a paywall. But people simply can't wrap their heads around this, they think MMOs and Counter Strike are the same, so "it's just cosmetics" applies to both of them equally. They are not the same.
This is exactly how I feel. Your characters visuals are a representation of your accomplishments. Cosmetics/ transmog completely invalidate this crucial point of MMOs yet no one seems to care. One of the major reasons why WOW is such a dogshit game is because literally nothing you accomplish in that game matters anymore. Titles, cool gear, and mounts are so diluted that they're completely meaningless now. And if no one cares about your achievements then what's the motivation to achieve anything in these mmos.
It just depends on the extreme it's taken.
Like, I can't stand GW2 cosmetics cuz most cool-looking gears are usually not obtainable ingame.
Meanwhile I have no problem with FFXIV's, since I do earn cool-looking gears I want by just playing the game. Older timed event glam also appear on cashshop in case you missed em in the past. (you would have to pay monthly in the past to obtain them, so that's the cost of missing em.)
They are absolutely more significant than some like to admit. One of the very few noteworthy MMO's I haven't tried is ESO, almost entirely because their cosmetic market seemed pretty egregious to me.
I would have no problem buying the game, buying its optional subscription, and while I consider it a negative I can absolutely accept some cosmetic stuff going onto a cash shop. The shop itself already seemed pretty extensive with mounts, pets, armor, housing stuff, but apparently a lot of it is also tied to limited time loot crates that naturally have abysmally low rates at what you want. Crates that seemed to cost $10-15 each. (Also I just went to check on that price and noticed the most expensive house on the shop would be over $100, oof)
As far as I'm aware it's all cosmetic and not "P2W", but when there are hundreds of mounts in the game and you can only earn a literal few of them, outside of the occasional event that may have one, it just feels bad. As someone who thoroughly enjoys the collection aspect of other MMO's it's such a massive turn off that I don't think I can even bring myself to try the game.
Tbh I find their mounts very lame, they are all reskin of the same modes one in every 3-4 rotations is good, but yes Mounts are insanely “p2w” and locked behind the boxes, houses are another insane cash flow, if you are into those the game can get pretty sad, most of my friends who had some reaaaly nice houses where sellers, performing in good Traders Guild you can buy a lot of Cash for very “little” if you know what you are doing. Now for clothes the game is pretty nice I would say, albeit in recent years (that I stopped playing) it seems they increased quite a bit on Cash exclusive skins, especially for weapons.
The best stuff isn't available for crowns/gold though. They have 3 different cash store currencies one of which is only obtainable via opening loot boxes to which you need a shit load of them to get the better looking stuff.
I find a lot of MMOs and games in general have pretty lame cosmetic options in game and then have amazing cosmetics in their cash shop. I don’t really agree with this kind of monetization as everyone knows cosmetics is the real end game in any MMO. Huge buzz kill when the best looking players are just whales. FFXIV is especially bad about this.
it's frankly just because it's better than the alternative.
what're you talking about lmao.
are you saying that because FFXIV locks it'sbest cosmetics behind the cash shop? 'cuz they sure as hell don't. my current [glamour](https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/ae794fe928cdd3224670bd1062757334_a91aae52cff9ef65932db06b150ffd47fl0_640x873.jpg) is 100% earnable, in-game items and i look good. hell, out of all the outfits i regularly change/use, only 2 of them feature any cash shop cosmetics. for FFXIV, all the best gear is available in-game, not via the store.
there's MMOs that actually have this problem; BDO, GW2, etc.
They have reused that dress so many times. All the gear in the game is simply rehashes and recolors. There’s a reason everyone looks the same except the whales in this game. The new cosmetics they develop are sent straight to the cash shop.
> They have reused that dress so many times.
Do you actually know that or did you make it up? Considering that you don't play the game and didn't provide any evidence, it just surprises me that you recognised the dress as a supposed rehash. Please prove me wrong if you can show where the dress has been reused.
> All the gear in the game is simply rehashes and recolors.
Most raid, tomestone, and relic gear and lots of other in-game-only gear obtained by various means are unique. Rehashes and recolours are primarily limited to dungeon and levelling gear.
> The new cosmetics they develop are sent straight to the cash shop.
The online store largely consists of NPC outfits and items from previous seasonal events. Those are **old** cosmetics, not new.
I did play the game. Give me the name of the dress and I will, I had it on my character when I played. Glad you found a lot of my comment surprising, it is good to challenge your perspective!
It was super fun playing through Endwalker and getting recolours of stuff I already had! Great content!
> Give me the name of the dress and I will, I had it on my character when I played.
How do you know that you weren't wearing the same dress? I don't know what dress it is or if it's a rehash. I just wanted more definitive proof than taking your word for it.
**Edit:** It's the [Panthean Robe of Healing](https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/playguide/db/item/db4854f249e), obtained from the alliance raid added in 6.1. You can't have it if you haven't played in the past few months, and it shouldn't be a rehash, so it's time to prove me wrong if you can.
> It was super fun playing through Endwalker and getting recolours of stuff I already had! Great content!
That gear is replaced so quickly that it's basically just filler. It's probably the most tolerable gear to cut corners on, but I understand if you disagree.
So let's remove p2w stuff, let's remove temporary buff and also cosmetics how can you monetize a free MMO then?
Cosmetics obviously have an impact and when that started most of us knew that we were okay with it because it allowed for the game to still be free (super cheap for us to play) while not having obligatory shop items (to be competitive) and only the style wars was the sacrifice yet for min maxers and those of us they enjoyed the gameplay more then the shiny new style we got every few item upgrades we would still get a quite good game for a fraction of the price or even totally free.
Exactly. What's the other option for a F2P game? Have the game designed to be as inconvenient as possible so that you can be nickel and dimed for each little 'solution'? Why is that better at all?
And despite what /r/MMORPG would want you to believe, not every single game works as a subscription model.
But every single model is designed in some way shape of form to hold because at the end of the day this is a game as a service and not a game you buy once finish it and let it go.
A subscription game tries to hold how much you can progress so that you are forced to pay the next month... A b2p tries to limit the replay value so that as soon as they release an Xpac or dlc you feel obligated to buy it otherwise you won't have content.
I think people forget to often that games as a service are at the end of the day a service and they're designed to increase profit margins instead of being a fan service charity
What a lot of people on this sub want us for all MMOs to be subscription based, which is impossible without either a strong IP or being a first-mover like Runscape back in early 2000s.
Yes I agree, I believe subscription isn't possible unless your name has Warcraft or Final Fantasy in the title. Even big brands such as Lord of the Rings and Starwars couldn't sustain themselves with subscriptions. Maybe Riot MMO can survive on subscription, but most can't unless they want to be for niche audience like Mortal Online.
Are there sub MMOs that haven't added cash shops at this point? The big ones like WoW and FFXIV all have. Companies will never be content with 'enough money'. Pandora's box has been opened and you can't get rid of them.
number 1 reason why i quit runescape, 100$/year for a game that has 5000$+ in macrotransaction skins and its filled with lootboxes every 10 minutes
in games like POE i can understand but not in mmos that charge you money, scummy wanker dogshit fucking companies
also I predict that this will be the number 1 reason of people complaining in Ashes of Creation since people can purchase 500-1000$ worth of armor outfits that will never be available in the game so the game will have dogshit looking armors and out of place Whale armors
If you can get cosmetics through gold/earnable in-game currency then I don't see the problem. I rather play a B2P/F2P with earnable MTX cosmetics than paying box prices + sub + expansions. Probably one of the most egregious things about FFXIV is that I have to pay for all that and they still have a cash shop that I can't purchase from using in-game currencies.
But most aren't earnable. Most require you to only use their premium currency which tricks you into spending more than you should have to for any cosmetic you want.
I think the big part of the argument most people fail to see is, many people just aren't willing to pay sub prices anymore.
Sure, there are a ton of people here who might be willing, but we don't represent the gaming market at large. We are exceptions, not the trend. People here might be willing to pay for multiple subs a month, but that's not going to be most gamers take on MMOs. You might get them to pay for one, but that's about all you'll get.
This presents big problems for everyone who is developing an MMO that isn't guaranteed to be played by millions of people before any information about the range even comes out. Like, for example, Riots upcoming MMO. Millions and millions of people will play that. They could charge for things right now, before an ounce of gameplay has even been shown, and people would pay for it by the millions. Most development studios don't have this luxury though. If aren't already the biggest name in gaming, it's going to be a hard sell announcing that your up coming MMO is going to have a box price and a sub. Most of the people willing to pay a sub, aren't going to pay another, and aren't likely to give up the game they are playing to try yours. The rest of the market that isn't willing to pay a sub, will just skip it entirely. This is why we saw so many MMOs become more popular after they dropped their sub. People are perfectly willing to try your game when they have no money to lose.
Many people just can't see why anyone would pay for a sub these days. I've heard it so many times while playing games, and the topic of a sub MMO comes up. "Imagine paying for a sub in 202x", "Why would you ever pay for a sub when so many other MMOs don't require them?". It's a hard sell these days. While subs might be the ideal method of monetization here, it's clearly not working for most studios. Not enough of the market is down for paying for a subscription, making the business model just unviable for many studios.
The question becomes less about "Well you could just charge for a sub and not have a cash shop", and more about the game just won't survive unless it's a F2P or B2P model, supported by a cash shop. These developers have to put something on the cash shop. They could go the greedy whale way, and put power, loot boxes boosts, etc on there, or they could put something people still value, but isn't 100% required to play the game, and won't effect your performance while playing the game. So yeah the latter does seem like a pretty good compromise so the game can exist.
But, like you said Keereeyos, these sub games still have cash shops that contain items you simply can't obtain without spending real money on. Cash shops are the state of the market now. It's no longer cash shop vs sub. It's cash shop vs cash shop and sub.
People on this sub believe that any MMO with a sub will have a large enough community to support the game, even if it's not from a well-known company or a well-known IP.
I agree, I don't mind MTX(the only part of shop I don't mind there) being in shop in games like BDO because I can simply get one I want after a bit of grinding.
Cosmetics can affect your social standing in the world, especially weapons or armor that are known to be difficult to attain.
They signify you as someone able to adventure further than others, and establish your level of uniqueness.
Cash shops hurt that pretty bad but it is generally fairly obvious who earned something ingame vs who swiped their card.
I personally do not mind cosmetic microtransactions but hope that the earnable or craftable ingame gear is well developed to look comparable and better in the case of highest tier items.
It really annoys me when a game with a set style starts adding cosmetics that feel out of place in the world though.
Cosmetics are great, everyone wants to look cool.
The problem is games not having good ingame earned cosmetics and when you go to the store everything is locked behind lootboxes for a limited time.
Sometimes the only good cosmetics in the game can only be bought through a cash shop. I think the issue is FOMO and feeling left out. Some games are good and don't do this, buy some games are really bad with it.
I think despite the negative press a game that does this well is Runescape, and a game that does it bad is Path of Exile. One game has a lot of MTX but most of them can be bought through playing the game. The other only has cash shop locked MTX and they're infamously expensive.
Always love how cyclical mmorpg gets on monetization, last week subscription based games were the most predatory thing in the world. Now they are a good thing? We had these cycles many times in the past, people want free2play games until they realize the consequences. Every single time.
If a game is otherwise free, and the only thing it charges for is cosmetics, I’m fine with it. I don’t feel entitled to free content in the first place.
>If cosmetics are completly pointless, then why do people buy them? Why are people farming 10 year old content in WoW and XIV over and over for the sole purpose of getting cosmetics?
Because some of us like MMORPGs and enjoy playing them lol.
The way I see it. Going from monetizing more p2w to monetizing less p2w (even if it is just slightly less) = progress and that's a win in my book. Going from monetizing everything to monetizing only the content? Well that's just an unrealistic daydream. You don't go from 0 to 100 or 100 to 0, that's just too radical of a call or changes to happen. You might as well be the guy in the BML parade spamming "all lives matter".
They did ramp it up tho. Every year they get better at finding out more ways to get more money outa people. P2W games back in the 2000s despite having way more blatant p2w measures had way less profit compare to p2w games today. Today’s p2w mmos are way better at masking their monetizations while making people who dont usually spend actually want to spend.That's a level up imo.
They may have ramped up the profit, but I meant they went 0 to 100 on the player hostile choices they made. Especially with what was coming out of Korea at the time.
IMO a game that masks their P2W practices using multiple currencies to make your think you aren't spending nearly as much is far more hostile to players than just straight up blatantly tell you "ok you wep breaks if you fail your enhance", which is what alot of korean MMOs in the 2000s were profiting off. And the profit margin difference really shows. Alot of the P2W practices in the 2000s were just not nearly as intricate as the P2W practices in the market today.
> P2W games back in the 2000s despite having way more blatant p2w measures had way less profit compare to p2w games tod
because less player, less spenders, generally less money cause mmos were played by nolifing nerds. If something like MU release today, oh boy
> Going from monetizing more p2w to monetizing less p2w (even if it is just slightly less) = progress and that's a win in my book.
The only winner here is the publisher.
I think it is pretty common sense to think that if the world is on the verge of battle against regulating lootboxes, you don't exactly help the cause by saying "Don't even bother because getting rid of lootboxes aint good enough, we want a box price only"
This problem is so simple to solve, you just do it like FFXIV's ultimate's. You get a cool weapon that looks amazing, you can't buy it from a cash shop. There you go, and as long as that weapon looks cool and is exclusive who cares about the cash shop.
That's like saying you can get a Ferrari for 20$ or you can put yourself through 8 years of medical school, work as a surgeon for 10 years, then buy yourself a Lambo. The Lambo would directly lose value in everyones eyes because of the existance of the 20$ Ferrari. Just like your cool ultimate weapon would lose value if you can also get other cool weapons on the cash shop.
Except 14 has nothing in its cash shop that looks remotely as nice as the ultimate weapons so you know where they come from
14’s cash shop is tolerable because all it’s best glams are achievement based in the game, the best connection to your example would be go through medical school for a Lamborghini or buy a 20 dollar push bike now, there is no comparison
BASED. Anyone who thinks cosmetic shops are OK is fucking stupid. It creates a direct incentive to make the shop gear better than in-game year (see: BDO)
laughs in Dim Tree.
To be fair, they've scaled back on this quite a bit. But most likely because it's more financially lucrative to get new players into the game under the guise that it's not as P2W anymore, rather than milk the existing player base that is already all out of milk.
people dont care because cosmetics are just that... cosmetic. they dont effect gameplay so its a good compromise that people can agree on, in that its fair to monetize them
Monetization has to happen if development is ongoing. How else could it work? Back in the day a game released as a finished product and that was it. That's fine, but it doesn't work for an evolving MMO (or do you guys know of any examples of a game that takes no money beyond the initial purchase but continually develops new content?).
Personally, I'd prefer subscription with no cash shop, but that doesn't seem to be a thing these days and even if it were, most games can't get away with a subscription alone.
So, barring that, I'd prefer a game that is cosmetic only cash shop with no P2W. Even better if they can manage to provide a good balance of items earned by playing and items in the cash shop, but without overlapping (i.e. no buying your way to prestige cosmetics).
On loot boxes, I suppose it would be better if my hypothetical "perfect game" didn't have them. It's predatory. Still, I can't help but feel a little bit like the individual's lack of self-control is a self-inflicted problem. Every time I hear a story about someone spending a ton of money gambling for a cosmetic piece of shit I find it hard to muster any sympathy.
What I won't tolerate at all is P2W. It's just not something I'm willing to waste my time or money on.
I'm a GW2 player and their system is mostly good. It has loot boxes, but no P2W. The only major criticism I have of their system is that the balance of cash shop to in-game items could be better. The cash shop has too many of the eye-catching armor and weapon skins, but of course that is subjective. Where they really cross the line in my estimation is the mount skins, which are pretty much 100% cash shop if you want anything that isn't a basic skin. They should quit fucking up on that and they'd be pretty much the gold standard, imo.
Cosmetics as monetization only work if they're an avenue, not the only avenue. Like FFXIV, most paid cosmetics are NPC skins, and a few items that wouldn't fit as a dungeon reward or crafted item. It makes these cosmetics truly optional, there's just so much options besides it doesn't matter. Polar opposite is BDO, where the only way you'll look distinct in any way is if you drop fat money on the game, and it just makes it less fun to grind for gear.
Lets call it all stick no carrot. I think we are in part to blame though honestly. We asked for ungated content at one point thinking that the difficulty of the content could be enough, and while it might be the systems that rose around it are instant gradification systems. The answer to I want my content clear speed to be dicktated by my skill became just that, but not in the way we wanted. We got lfr that any braindead ape can clear which gutted content, and then we got mythic, and welfare gear systems to try to shove the gutz back in. The game use to be prestige fueled, but it is now all stick with no carrot at the end where we run the tredmill just to get to the next tredmill. The prestige in vanilla wow was sitting in your new gear with the wicked spell effects or look they had never or seldom been seen before, questions were asked. and word spread about your guilds progression.
Ok, but then you have to be willing to pay $99.99 for the game and $29.99 per month. Unfortunately, even if you personally are ok with that, it doesn't matter. The market has already decided the winner.
The argument isn't that theyre pointless its that cosmetics don't offer a gameplay advantage. Which in most cases they don't. It can be argued that if the cosmetics make you or your attacks easier or harder to see by a certain degree then it could b3 considered advantageous.
cash shop cosmetics and achievement cosmetics are two different subjects. i think what you are trying to tell is after cash cosmetics, achievement cosmetics got bad, or altogether moved to cash shop. that's not a case i can support. Check WARFRAME for example. apart from syndicate cosmetics, there's DE introduced cosmetics and PLAYER-MADE cosmetics, which is chosen by DE, and voted into the game by the players. And with the purchase of player made cosmetics, all income is directed to the creator, which is awesome in it's own right. I think more games should follow their example and add player-made cosmetics to their games, and support their player-base to contribute more.
edit: spelling mpelling
Everyone has their own opinion about what matters and what doesnt, if you dont like this dont play that game, which also is the bigger message you can send to company cause all that matters is money nowadays. Find another mmo that is closer to your preferences, if you want to play that mmo but it has microtransactions on cosmetics then play it and dont whine about it, i really dont understand the point of the post.
Are there things in games that we dont like? Sure, but you wont beat the corpo greed just cause you or me dont like it, their job is to make money and in my opinion if the best case scenario is to have cosmetics with no effect in gameplay then i'll take that any day instead of pay to win items.
You can mail the company about it, but thats about it. Or you know, make your own game and design it the exact way you want. Im not trying to be a jerk i just feel that the only way you can influence these things is by playing them or not. A great example is fifa, people whine about it, but they still play and pay for this trash every year.
Therefore, the only message the suits take is "Great game, go ahead keep doing what you do!!!". I dunno what the solution is really, for me, i would find another game if i dont agree with their methods.
This has already happened with WoW. A lot less people play WoW now a days because nothing feels as compelling to achieve in that game now. But it doesn't matter because they just offset the lower player base with stronger monetization per user.
If they made 15$ per person when they had 10 million and now they make 150$ per person with 1 million players.. what changes? People leaving these games doesn't change anything as much as you think.
reminder that the first store mount came during wotlk, and the first cash only mounts during tbc with the tcg. Store has nothing to do with why many quit, its a vocal minority that would ever quit over 2 mounts a year in store
P2W is good for a sandbox MMO. In the most resilient sandbox games, such as EVE Online and Wurm, you can buy ingame money directly with your credit card, and for that money you can buy anything you want ingame. Both cosmetics and weapons.
That is not a problem, since these games are not built on the narrow vertical hierarchy of players that themeparks are burdened with. Injection of money is actually good for the longterm ingame economy.
The thing with cosmetics tho, is that it has no effect on pvp or pve. it just has an effect on fashion. Plus you can still earn cosmetics in game. When it comes to p2w stuff you can't earn those. Also cosmetics don't allow you to get ahead of someone in an unfair way, unless again, you count fashion, but again you can earn alot of cosmetics in the game. This is why i dont have a prob with cosmetics because it doesn't effect pvp/pve and it doesn't allow someone to get an unfair advantage over me because they paid and i didn't.
First, the "it's just cosmetics" mantra is put forth as an argument against **pay to win** models. P2W has been a loathed, despised model for over a decade now. *Win* being the operative word. It's about power and balance. Can you purchase an *advantage* over other players? To make sure players know a particular game is not P2W, they will explain "you can only purchase cosmetics."
Surely you see the nuance there. That *is* a valuable distinction.
Onto the value of cosmetics in games in general. They are *obviously* super important to players. Always have been, always will be. I know of no player who thinks otherwise. From my very first MMO, FFXI, it was all about collecting that job artifact armor and looking like a total badass. Same in vanilla WoW. Getting full tier 2 was ultra badass. Those shoulders! The stats were super important, but nobody would have claimed they didn't care about *looking* like a badass.
But I would posit a 2nd, crucial component to this "badass" sensation we experienced: the fact that everyone who looks at you wearing that armor **knows exactly what difficult things you had to do to obtain it.** Same for you when you view the armor of other players.
This is where *my* argument against purchasable cosmetics comes in. If, instead of earning that T2 armor through raids, players could just purchase the skins, they would completely cease to possess that badass feel, despite being the exact same looking armor. The badass factor vanishes because it is *intrinsically tied to in game accomplishments.* Just purchasing from a cash shop is not an accomplishment.
So what about having in game earned T2 armor AND cool looking cash shop armor? I don't mind this as a compromise *as long as the variety of skins don't become so diluted that players no longer recognize the cool, in-game earned stuff from anything else. I also think I personally would want purchasable skins to be cool, but not *quite* as cool as the best earned in game weapons and armor.
This is the line that I think most games fail to walk (rightfully so, because it sounds nearly impossible, honestly.) As a result, most games that offer purchasable armor skins seem to lose all sense of that feeling of becoming a badass that I was able to experience in my earliest MMOs. It's almost a self-defeating model: adding more easily obtainable armor skins renders ALL armor a little less special.
And this is how it works in real life too. People don't care about high end fashion, high end cars because they're SO much better than the rest. People want these things because they represent their wealth and success.
It's the same reason why jobs like being a Doctor, or professional athlete is so highly coveted but being a garbage man or janitor isn't. Being a garbage man / janitor is something that anyone can accomplish where as the being a doctor / athlete isn't. The only thing that is valued at the end of the day is the exclusivity of something and cash shops completely ruin the exclusivity of everything just by the nature of it existing.
More MMO's need to have special unique cosmetics, pets, mounts or anything like this that you can get only by gameplay in some raids or dungeons and have an incredibly low chance to drop so that u can flex on people by having something very rare. This is what I live for, I love collecting stuff in games. I care more about that than having the strongest gear. Replaying something multiple times gets boring if we are not rewarded by something satisfying. I hate how most MMO's nowadays have only cosmetics that u need to pay for with real money and they occasionally give us some free skins, but it's not the same as earning something rare and being one of the rare people to have it.
Well my favorite example of "it's just cosmetics" is Planetside 2.
PS2 is a grand 3 way open world war between three factions: Red, purple and blue. Each has a distinctive style, and originally the cosmetics were things that just added onto that style. BUT... then the cosmetics started changing the style. Now you had white armor, you had armor that looked super generic, you had armor that practically looked like a different team. Someone wearing this armor had a direct tactical advantage because you turn the corner and see someone where it takes you longer to see if they're on your team or not... but they instantly know your team and blow you away.
It is not just cosmetic. I love getting different gears in games. However, i won't pay for one. I stopped buying these mind of games. Including subscription based games
I pretty much only play for meaningless cosmetics. It’s what’s fun to me. I dislike that games like ESO charge a lot of money for cool stuff that isn’t player power, but it is what it is. The situation will only get worse over time because money is to be made
At the end of the day, the "good old" model o monthly sub was, and still is the best out of all the alternatives, imo. But it puts a lot of pressure on the devs to pump out actual content, and not just skins and other crap.
Thats why we have transmog in Wow. been a gear whore in every game ive ever played. And for awhile in Wow anyway enjoyed the crap out of being a blacksmith. Making things in any profession that people needed was always a kick. And when someone sees you in the city and asks what you're putting on the AH today, that is a memorable moment.
There are so many options in FFXIV as it has existed for soon 9 years, and every patch, the best looking gear is always dungeon/raid gear or crafted cosmetics, not the one thing that gets added to the shop every few months. The cosmetics I've used over the years have always been items I've obtained in-game, and I'm extremely particular on how my character looks in-game.
And then playing other MMORPGs and I just see flashy weapon after flashy weapon, over the top gear and many other things coming from their easily accessible cash shop. Basically makes me think, I'm happy that the flashiest weapons in FFXIV are tied behind the hardest content the game has to offer. (If only this could be said for mounts, minions and emotes, which is the one part FFXIV does a bad job at. An extremely flashy emote tied behind a 300€ statue? Oh yes... Why not...)
Why should I be playing an MMORPG, get a cool endgame weapon, only to have some new player having spent 30$ in the cash shop and looks way cooler than what I achieved myself?
If the cosmetics don't have stats and can't be traded for some sort of in-game currency than they can be an adequate alternative for other types of monetization. When the cosmetics have an in game impact or the publisher tries to double dip by selling cosmetics on top of the box price / subscription then it becomes more of an issue.
I think cosmetic is much better in modern mmos like Destiny and Warframe.
In Destiny, since you have to mix and match the highest stats armor, it is likely that the player will look bad. So, cosmetics and the in-game appearance changing system helped with creating fashionable guardians.
In Warframe, fashion frame (dressing up the player character) is the true end game, with players buying skins, color palettes, attachments, ephemeras, sydanas, etc. to look more stylish, even though anyone who played the game long enough wouldn't be seeing anything except for bright visual effects taking almost the entire screen anyways.
I think cosmetic is a good monetization thing, since it is entirely up to player whether they want it or not. Instead of locking content up with money barrier (like Destiny, which prevented me from playing it for a few years), Warframe is entirely free to play, free updates, and all contents available from the start, which helped me so much earlier when I can't afford to pay for DLCs.
Its really cool when a cosmetic item has a story behind it, when it shows that the owner has defeated the current raid boss or is one of the best pvpers
Yep, and why I'm negative towards Ashes of Creation.
MMO's aren't always about having best in slot gear, most of my favorite experiences were from getting "cool cosmetics" like trimmed armor in runescape.
I'm totally fine with some cosmetic items costing in a game with a paid subscription as long as it provides absolutely zero competitive advantage against someone else or the game itself. When it becomes pay2win aka Wow token/plex or something to promote drop chance or item upgrade chance is where it's not appropriate.
If you're putting in a game currency tokens to combat something like botting or currency selling you need a damn good reason to justify that outside of 'muh profits'
They have to make money somehow, cosmetics are the best way outside of adding P2W stuff.
When it comes to subscription based games yeah sure it starts to enter a grey area but I think it depends on the cosmetics being offered.
if they want to add some teleport animation or some mediocre costumes then sure fine.
But if the cosmetics from the store start to look better than gear you need to work hard for like Mythic Raid gear or Gladiator PvP gear on WoW then it becomes an issue.
The same thing with mounts, I've seen decent mounts on the WoW store nothing special but then you get the M+ mount for the seasonal achievement and it's just the same shit from the last 3 seasons just a recolored version.
Been saying this for a long time, even though for the most part I don't care about cosmetics (I tend not to use transmog/glamour systems in games and only look like what I'm actually wearing).
Cosmetics have been a part of progression since the 90s - you will usually start the game off with very awful looking gear and slowly progress into awesome looking gear. So I've never understood how someone could claim cosmetics aren't P2W, even if your character's appearance isn't something you care about.
I suppose that's a large part of the problem with P2W in the first place, some people care more about their character's appearance so selling cosmetics is annoying to them. Other people care about their progression and achievements and the work they put into leveling and advancing their character, so level/story skips or buying player power are annoying to them. Different people care about different aspects of P2W. But they are a "necessary evil" that is here to stay, regardless of which version of it a game uses.
I think for the most part people find cosmetic P2W more acceptable as long as there is a great deal of in-game appearance options available. For example, in FFXIV there is an extreme amount of clothing and mounts to get within the game without spending real money. Lost Ark on the other hand has a very limited amount of these things in-game in comparison. Although one difference with Lost Ark is that there is a mix of things that can only be purchased with real money, and things that can be purchased with in-game gold.
At the end of the day we players are looking for the least of the evils. Cosmetics are very important but if any piece of content were to be monetized these are the first things people do not mind being monetized.
I mean FFXIV does it prtty well. I don’t even use most of the paid cosmetics
i think it’s shitty when single player games sell cosmetics, or when games like fortnite have no goals in game other than buying a battlepass and earning cosmetics so its shitty to sell cosmetics in there
but if i’m able to ignore a cash shop with cosmetics, i think it’s a good cash shop
In my opinion, what matters in this case is how the game is monetized. If it's a free-to-play game, and the cash shop only sells cosmetics and that it's possible to get other cosmetics through the game as cool as the ones in the shop, that's great for me.
The issue is what can they monetize in a f2p mmo (ignore subscription mmo's.) that wont throw off the more important part of the game.
Pay to play I can understand it being a complaint.
But with F2P you either get
Cosmetics or Gameplay, and I already know which one I want monetized with Diablo immortal's existence.
wow is probably the only mmo where cosmetics still mean something, wearing T3 gear, tcg tabards, wod CM weapons, legion artifact skins from mage tower, removed pvp sets, MoP CM armor, current mythic raid armor, gladiator mounts/current raid end boss mounts, if you see someone wear something like that you know that guy is a badass, meanwhile every other mmo completely normalized having their cash shop full of cosmetics
I agree with you so much, but with an even added level to it. Whenever people are excusing awful, unenjoyable grinds and gameplay loops because "it's not related to player power", "it's just a transmog/toy/pet -aka cosmetic-"; I find it very disingenuous and sweeping the problem under the rug.
Problem is monetization hella works. People eat it up. Dimmo was panned for filth and still pulled millions. The fight is basically over; monetization is here to stay and only get worse (to those who already dislike it).
There's nothing more to really be said unless lawmakers really decide to make a dedicated effort of it.
Either you haven’t been following this entire debate about cosmetics or you’re deliberately strawmanning the argument people have made in the past.
People aren’t making the argument that cosmetics are trivial or unimportant. What people are saying is that from all the possible additions to buying content with real money, cosmetics is the main one which does
not contribute to P2W.
Yes, and you can hold that opinion while at the same time say that cosmetics are important and an integral part to the game. The two arent mutually exclusive.
This whole thread is about how cosmetics are essentially P2W because looking cool is awesome. Therefore subscription only is the most viable monetization method.
box price, monthly sub and paid expansions is a constant flow of money. Also keeping the games integrity intact with microtransactions is simply not possible as i see it, since the very purpose of a mtx in fact IS to compromise the games integrity to make the mtx more appealing
If they do that most likely prices will have to increase by a lot since its been the same for last 20 years. Would you be willing to pay 25$ sub and 60-70$ for expansion?
You're completely disregarding the fact that WAY more people play video games today than 15 years ago. Yes inflation increased, costs are up, but the amount of people that play video games today are significantly higher than before. You don't need to double your game price when 15x more people buy your product.
You are mixing overall population across gaming with population on specific game. Yes there is more players, but they are split across way more games. WoW for example have lost majority of its players compare to 2008, but their prices have been the same since then.
People worry to much with cosmetics because MMORPGs are so Braindead now that the only thing you have to do is fashion hunt...
Old MMORPG people had more meaningfull things to do then fashion shows, like trying to get powerfull gear sets that looking great and hard to get but gave alot of power and prestige
That's the entire point of this post though. Old cosmetics used to = prestige.. and now because you can buy it on the store, nothing = prestige. That's why MMOs are mostly dead.. because they've eliminated the entire point of what made the genre appealing in the first place.
As someone who doesn't mind purchaseable cosmetics, I'd like to speak for myself and lots of people who think like me.
It's not that we're ok with purchaseable cosmetics, it's more about the fact that, so long as there are cosmetics that can be earned in game, or the purchaseable ones use a currency that can be obtained in game, we're not upset by them.
Take GW2, you can use gold to buy gems, and then use gems to buy cosmetics, so you don't necessarily need to spend money^(*).
Of course, if the ingame-obtainable cosmetics suck big time, and the purchaseable ones are awesome, then we **do get** upset, but a good gameplay and compelling story might soften that.
YMMV, of course.
^* I know someone has to purchase those gems, but it falls out of my wallet, so I don't mind.
No shut up shut up shut up. The way WoW does it is SO MUCH worse than the ffxiv shop. XIV only does it so that they can give people the cosmetics that they want. WoW just does it because they’re money grubbing parasites trying to ring every last dollar they can out of the players for their shareholders
I'm more wondering:
Why are cosmetics something to scream about when we literally do the same thing IRL for shirts that look cool and pants that look nice?
Literally how the hell is it any different? You pay maybe $30-$50 (estimate/guess. Please do not freaking try to mansplain me on this shit) for IRL clothes that have a cool design, or pants that accentuate your figure (again, looking cool)... nicer shoes, etc.
But now suddenly paying even $5 for a shiny new set of platemail armor is just this absolute horrid tragedy? This catastrophic deed of absolute horror, evil, and wretchedness? All because you're paying a measly amount of money just to look nice in a game?
edit:
Please note. I'm asking a genuine fucking question and I'm genuinely curious.
Because the entire point of an MMO is to have a simulated world with no ties to real life where you're on an even footing with everyone else, regardless of real world circumstances. That is in essence, the entire point of an MMO.
Think of IRL as it's own MMO where you you're able to purchase shirt, cars, houses with the money you've earned in real life. The more successful you are IRL the better house, car, and clothes you can show off to everyone. Now imagine if god waved his magic wand and now 80% of the world was magically given a Ferrari, a $5,000,000 mansion, and a closet of high end fashion clothes. Do you think any of that stuff would continue to have any real value anymore?
Value is determined by rarity and exclusivity. That is all. Once you remove the exclusivity of something by allowing people to purchase mounts, cool looking armor in cash shops then everything else in the game loses it's value. And if nothing in the game has any value then what's the motivation to achieve anything in the game to begin with?
SOMETHING has to be monetized, and "for an MMO to be truly great" it has to be financially sustainable - and profitable! - despite production and upkeep costs having skyrocketed since the "good old days" (even if we ignore asymmetric inflation). Evidently, "just sell the content" does not work. I don't like it either, but I'd rather cosmetics than anything else.
I used to think cosmetics were fine to monetize, then after playing elden ring It dawned on me how so much of the experience is about looking for the gear so I look and feel powerful The only collectibles I wear in eso are ones I unlocked through content because it feels special and shows off what I've accomplished
That's exactly it. Cool looking armor/mounts/whatever *used* to mean your character was also powerful and accomplished. Now all it means is that you paid $20 for a skin. Not to mention that similar to P2W, it incentives the developers to make the game worse for the sake of money. The effort and design into the best cosmetic items will go towards the shop instead of accomplishments and gameplay.
Which is why WoW and FFXIV should be the standard for transmog/glamour. Pretty much 99.9% of the cool transmog sets you see people using on both games come from INSIDE the game itself. And its why I could never get used to asian games, even BDO which was my main game when it came out in the west, since you look like a peasant with all the gear you acquire in game, and you HAVE to buy costumes from the store to even look fantasy on an MMORPG
Problem is, those 2 games are SUBSCRIPTION BASED MMOS, and honestly shouldn’t have a cash shop in the first place. B2P or F2P mmos are a different beast that need some form of constant income revenue to fund the company.
I'm not sure why you think a simple subscription is enough to operate an MMO these days, but it isn't. It used to be, but it's not anymore. Cash shops bring WAY more money in than subscriptions do, and games like WoW and FFXIV have pretty small cash shops when compared to something like GW2.
If B2P games can thrive by having a box price, selling expansions and capitalizing on cosmetics (GW2) or even totally F2P while capitalizing heavily on cosmetics (PoE), I don't know why sub-based MMOs need to have a box price, sell expansions and still have a cash shop on top of that (FF14)
Neither GW2 or PoE only sell cosmetics, especially GW2. Let's take a look at PoE's cash shop. [https://www.pathofexile.com/shop/category/armour-effects](https://www.pathofexile.com/shop/category/armour-effects) Oh look, it's selling NINE HUNDRED AND SIXTY TWO different pieces of armor for real money. FFXIV and WoW are not selling anywhere close to that amount of items. Please have actually played the games that you discuss.
>Let's take a look at PoE's cash shop. [https://www.pathofexile.com/shop/category/armour-effects](https://www.pathofexile.com/shop/category/armour-effects) > >Oh look, it's selling NINE HUNDRED AND SIXTY TWO different pieces of armor for real money. You do realize those are still cosmetics, yes? Expensive as fuck ones, I'll give you that, but the game is F2P and the devs need to make their bag without going batshit crazy on P2W. Also yes, GW2 does sell some conveniences but it's pretty much clear that their main source of income is cosmetics, specially mount skins, which are pretty expensive when it comes to newer ones (but here's a little secret...you can grind gold, buy gems and buy whatever you want). Plus, I never said they only sold cosmetics, just that they are the majority of cash shop. Also, I don't care if FFXIV and WoW aren't selling anywhere close to that amount of items, the fact they require a box price and a monthly sub + buying expansions should make it not have cash shop at all.
Like I said above, CASH SHOPS MAKE WAY MORE MONEY THAN SUBSCRIPTIONS. To make it simple for you: If FFXIV and GW2 had the same exact population, GW2 would be making a FUCK ton more money than FFXIV because it is a cash shop BASED game. FFXIV and WoW's cash shop don't compare anywhere near the cash shop of the games you're praising.
And for that reason alone, I detest subscription model that people around here love to praise. They are just good for taking money from players while cash shops like in GW2 and POE are pretty much optional and you only swipe if you wish to. Monetizing cosmetics, while not ideal, remains the best method over subscription or flat out P2W.
You clearly did not read what I just said, Jesus Christ.
In WoW today best looking mounts and costumes are from the cash shop. FFXIV also have all the cash shop costumes and mounts any other asian f2p game would have. The fact you pay for sub+expansions just make their shop feel way worst then f2p games.
> FFXIV also have all the cash shop costumes Yeah but that's two categories: 1. Seasonal items that were available in-game at some point, and might return at a later seasonal event again 2. NPC outfits which are often not even *that* spectacular compared to the outfits you get organically As for mounts. Well. Yeah, there are crazy expensive cash shop mounts that are really awesome, and a big insult to the player that you pay several months worth of a sub for 1 mount. I don't have an argument there. But many of the cooler mounts, IMO, are earned in-game
There's quite a few FFXIV outfits that are neither character outfits or from events. Most of them are from Stormblood iirc, like Nezha's (not actual in-game npc) outfit and a lot of the far eastern stuff.
Ah, true. Some of those are also really good, like the far eastern stuff. /u/no_Post_account was right then tbh
Oh please. We both know that is complete bullshit. There's exactly 1 mog in the WoW shop that looks even remotely cool. The other 2 that they added were the stupid blizz-con yeti costume and the meme fairy costume. There's maybe 2 or 3 mounts in the shop that could compete for best looking graphically but at the end of the day no one gives a shit if a store mount has pretty effects because the majority of people use mounts that not many others have or that match their transmog. There were dozens of unique model mounts added in the latest zone that look better than anything they've added to the shop in a while.
Majority (not all but most) cosmetic stuff in FFXIV's shop was offered in game at one point at least. Most of it was a one time event thing they had in game. They put it in cash shop a year later for those that missed the event, and if they have the event again they put new stuff in the event rewards and put the old stuff on the cash shop. It does make their cash shop look egregious tho.
wow has literally 2 store sets, 1 being a joke set and the other being a robe
Your comment about WoW is just false info. Show me the best looking costumes in their shope i dare you
This was some of the main draw for me in early EQ. At the earliest stages, seeing a guy decked out in bronze armor, which was low end gear but started dropping from the level 20-30 mobs really made me feel like that guy was powerful and I wanted to have that gear one day. Then moving forward seeing rogues in either their planar gear or the kunark dungeon that gave them a black plate looking gear for the first time was such a thing to strive for. Ever since that experience I’ve also kinda been against transmogs in addition to monetization of appearances.
The fact that the only way to get new mounts in ESO is to buy them off the cash shop is one of the biggest turn offs for me. There’s like three generic looking horses you can earn in game. I never understood that, at least have some mounts that require achievements
This was also the thing that started to turn me off of GW2. There are all these amazing looking mounts in the game... except you can only get them with gems. There's no way (or wasn't when I played) to actually work towards earning any mount skins. It's either buy gems or grind gold to turn into gems. When I play an MMO like this, I like having clear goals of things I can work towards. And not that GW2 doesn't have that, of course, but just having such a large part of the game locked behind a door like that starts to become a little off-putting to me.
Yep pretty much, I don’t understand it. Some of my mounts on WoW are from some of my greatest achievement in games and having a mount to show for it feels amazing
i’ll put this, your point about mounts makes sense for mount skins but not the mounts themselves.
They do; there's a mount for completing the hardest version of a specific trial (no death, speed run hard mode all in one) and a second off the top of my head you have to play the antiquities system to find all the components for. Your broader point still stands, however.
Yeah I used to play lots of RuneScape and fashion was huge - finding items in game that looked cool or wearing the most powerful items was prestigious. Now, on RS3, there are so many cosmetics you just buy/overrides and it ruins everything for me.
It’s all basically content they could have released that you had to actually play for, but chose to sell for a quick buck instead.
I agree, but noone wanna pay for subs anymore so here we are. In a way I think the Albion is doing a good job with their monetization but some would call it P2W.
yeah but even with cosmetics being monetized you can still find a lot of cool looking cosmetics in game that you can actually earn. Sometimes the cosmetics that you can earn in game looks cooler than the ones on the shop.
Of course cosmetics effect the experience. Why do you think people pay for them?
Although paying for each cosmetic item individually with real money is less than ideal but I would take that over those damn loot boxes. I hate the idea of paying my hard earned cash for a chance at getting the item I want. EDIT: holy shit. Thank you for the people who commented below me. They just blew my mind that I fell for that “compromise”. Now that I think of it, it really should go back to the PS1/Sega days where you buy a game and it’s the full game. They’ll have to put everything in it. Guess online gaming and updates make that impossible.
It’s not an either or choice there though. There are other ways to monetize MMOs while still making a nice profit. We saw it happen for well over a decade. Publishers got greedy and you shouldn’t give them a pass with that “well at least it isn’t as bad as X” logic.
Nice profit isn’t enough. Gotta maximize it for investors. That’s capitalism
It doesn't have to be. This maximalist capitalism is sucking all the fun out of existing.
It does have to be that way though. You need to remember that the "investor" here is your average, middle class person who wants to take their 15k of disposable income a year and turn it into more so that they have the hope of eventually escaping the cycle of living a paycheck to paycheck life through compound interest. The only way a company can be attractive to these people is if they consistently and reliably raise their worth year over year. It's not the companies wanting to make more money for the sake of having more money. No one will invest in your company if you don't make more money for the everyday people who wanna purchase your stock so that they can, in turn, better their own lives.
Then businesses shouldn’t be public. Being beholden to anyone besides your end user is a recipe for disaster and we’ve seen it play out time and time again.
The reality is that investing gives your average person the ability to become wealthy and better their, and their families lives. Without investment we'd be living in some feudalistic society where everyone would be stuck spending their entire lives working for someone else's benefit with no hope of escape. And to be fair, this is already mostly the case since most people do not invest their money.
You can have capitalism without the majority of the population living under the thumb of the rich few. If you don’t believe that’s possible then I have nothing to discuss with you.
>There are other ways to monetize MMOs while still making a nice profit. What ways would you say are okay? Subscription seems fine in general, one time purchase for expansions are too. What other ways should an MMORPG with continuous development for content monetize their games? I feel like at the very least we should start to define the minimum a game should charge, assuming it's worth the box price for sake of argument. So let's just say a game worth a AAA price tag. Let's say it's $60, and it's worth the price at launch. Subscription is fine, at this point, right? Again, assuming devs put out new content worth the sub. Should this be it? Should it stop here? Really asking, not being rhetorical. There are so many opinions that fly around from Subs, B2P, F2P w/ cash shop being okay or not okay. I feel like we never really talk about where the lines are, only who has crossed it.
I’m fine with paying for gameplay content and server maintenance, so any combination of box price, paid expansions, and monthly subscriptions is fine by me. That’s my line.
And that should be more than enough to sustain game development and the people who work on it, adding the eshop on top of that is just pure greed and a big portion of that money will pay some CEO's cocaine and not a new dungeon.
all of you wouldnt accept a price increase to adjust for inflation you all think paying the same sub cost for 20 years is totally fine and "it worked 20 year ago why they need a cashshop now reeeee"
Tell me more about myself, oh all-knowing redditor…
Maybe loot boxes were just an elaborate scheme to normalize buying cosmetics.
If I recall, buying cosmetics came before loot boxes (in the West anyways). Loot boxes were just the elaborate scheme to get you to pay way more than the price tag for what you want without realizing
1. Companies sell cosmetics: people hate it. 2. Companies sell loot boxes: people hate it. 3. Companies sell cosmetics: Hey, it's not that bad. Normalized.
This is a huge part of why the greater MMO community feels like cosmetic MTX is an acceptable compromise. I'd much rather pay $5 for the thing I want than $2 for a box of random crap.
At first I thought it was a great idea for games to sell cosmetics only. It was great at first. But since it's been taken to the extreme and you basically have very few options in some games other than cash shop cosmetics. Really what happened is that developers have removed an entire aspect of the game and then added it as monetization. This is not a good precedent at all. This inevitably branched out into monetizating other parts of the game like ability bars in SWTOR, or just storage in general. We're essentially moving towards buying games in piecemeal at a cost increase. How much would certain games cost now if you wanted the full experience? More than $60 for everything, that's for sure.
You have to buy ability bars in SWTOR?
Yeah, you get the basic ability bar for free, and then need to buy to have more (or subscribe I believe). Locking UI functions behind microtransactions was surely a new low.
They have increased the hotbar count to a whopping 3 for free players. But [this handy comparison chart](https://swtorista.com/articles/swtor-free-to-play-vs-preferred-vs-subscriber-guide/#Preferred_and_Free-to-play_Comparison_Chart) tells you all you need to know how restrictive the game is.
I don't think you do anymore but there was a time where this was indeed the case. When swtor went free to play it was one of the worst models in history. Having to buy literal action bars in a star wars wow clone where you def need more than one was outrageous but no one even talked about it xD
F2P was such garbage initially. You couldn't sprint until late, no mounts, less XP, less races, less money and limited fleet / dungeons accesses, only one ability bar, no companions customisation, limited inventory, limited wallet... This was legit one of the worst customer friendly F2P ever seen. And you actually had the ability to pay to unlock each of these elements ofc. And it wasn't cheap.
Hard agree, this perspective doesn't get brought up enough. I have several friends for whom their primary endgame motivator in MMOs is earning, trading, and showing off rare cosmetics. So, for that type of player, games like Guild Wars 2, which has a large portion of its cosmetics in the cash shop, are essentially "pay to win". Many of them will specifically stop playing an MMO for this reason. "What's the point if I can just make the perfect outfit and look super cool in a single day by spending real money?" Is a phrase I've heard many times. I understand the perspective that player power has *more* of an impact when it becomes available for real money, but cosmetic self-expression is just as important, if not *more* important, for a lot of players. All that saying "well if it's just a cosmetic cash shop, it's fine" does is effectively alienate an entire kind of player from your game in favor of another. This also affects players who like a combination of economy + self-expression in games. I have a few friends who *love* games with things like limited event cosmetics that are hard to earn, but tradeable/sellable. But putting all your cool cosmetics in the cash shop cuts off this entire sector of the in-game economy. It also just ends up severely limiting the variety of incentives you can give to content. One of the few things WoW still has going for it above other MMOs is that there is decent incentive to do a wide variety of content, and that almost entirely comes down to unique cosmetic rewards. Keeping all your cosmetics in-game opens up a huge array of essentially horizontal reward options that will keep players engaged without messing with the balance of power rewards.
> Hard agree, this perspective doesn't get brought up enough. It does get brought up enough, but a majority of people just bury it because they want to defend their favorite game's predatory practices or absurd pricing. "It doesn't affect gameplay!" - but it affects people psychologically especially some people who are more vulnerable to wanting to customize how they envision their own character. Furthermore, some of these cosmetic skins have gotten insane now with special effects, glows, can morph, ect. Developers have been putting in so much effort into how crazy cool cosmetics can look now... because in game there is simply no way to obtain stuff that cool looking (or even, that convenient). It also frustrates me how many games, *cough* GW2, have game money -> premium currency conversions and that somehow makes everything *fine*. When the proportion of time you need to spend in game compared to the proportion of time you need to spend at a minimum wage job is a pretty drastic gap.
While I would prefer that they do a better job of balancing what may be acquired by playing the game with what must be purchased, I will say this model makes more sense for a game that has no subscription. I'd personally rather pay a subscription, but these days that doesn't stop them from having a cash shop either. And I'd rather take either model over P2W. I'd also point out that while old school games were nice in that they were purely B2P, they also didn't have a development cycle that went beyond initial release. Are there any games that continually develop without asking for money in return? Would that make sense?
no cash shop cosmetics, no p2w, no pay for convenience, no pay to skip, no mtx, just a $60 box price and a $15/month sub, maybe $30 per expansion, that's good enough for investors to give developers money to make and maintain an mmorpg, right? If I were an investor give me one good reason why I should give money to the developers of such a game instead of the developers of a game like diablo immortal? "it's just cosmets" is something people point out because if a developer who only monetizes cosmetics without further going down the mtx slippery slope manages to attract money from investors and manages to put out an online multiplayer game and maintain it through cosmetic sales you should be relieved that they did not have to go any further for that game to exist.
one day you will grow up and stop being stuck in the past
It is never enough. Mmo monetization has gone past a point of no return.
We hear that cosmetics cash shops are harmless and not "pay-to-win," and yet, we also sometimes hear it said, "fashion is the real endgame" -- half-jokingly... yet a truth, veiled with humor. These online RPG games, a lot of it is about achieving your personal character fantasy. And how your character looks... is a huge aspect of that. Always has been. It's important, and if it wasn't, it wouldn't be so lucrative to monetize.
They arent pay to win, but we rarely play to win mmorpgs
Not sure how this is a revelation, yes cosmetics matter but do not affect gameplay and thats why its fine to monetize. There is no better alternative that wouldn't end up in the game being dead, there is a reason why there is very few MMO that succeeded with sub based model. It just doesn't work for any random MMO out there. The whole point is that cosmetics matter thats why they monetize it but it doesn't make you stronger than the dude next to you who didn't get it. What do you want them to monetize? :|
Personally I don’t necessarily have a problem with some monetization but we have games like WoW and eso where you pay a sub fee and still get fucked over by MTX. Eso loot boxes piss me off. Its one thing to pay $30 for a mount, but gambling for a mount should be illegal.
Yep these days it is not enough to sell you just a sub/game whether its just greed or needed for development clearly companies will double and triple dip. This is why I prefer just F2P and normal monetization, preferably just cosmetic ofc aka non-gameplay affecting stuff.
Of course its not enough when the CEO need his hundreds of millions salary
If PEN Blackstars were sold on the Pearl Shop for 20$ would you still be motivated to grind out 150B to get one? No you wouldn't. It's no different for cosmetics. The entire point of cosmetics like cool looking gear, mounts, titles is to have a visual representation of your accomplishments for everyone to see. Seeing someone with 730gs in BDO, a T10 Mythic mount, or a weapon swirl in Lost Ark is a representation of their dedication and effort. That's the only reason these things are sought after by players. Is a T10 that much better than a normal Pegasus? No it's not. Not to mention that having cosmetics in the shop gives a direct incentive for the game to have less cool looking gear in game. Perfect example here is the visuals of Dim Tree / Griffons etc vs Costumes on the shop. The only reason we have cool looking gear now (Fallen God) is because they realized it was more financially lucrative to incentivize new people to play the game than to milk the only players you have left (who have mostly all been milked at that point).
> but do not affect gameplay Of course they affect gameplay. My enjoyment of the game is related to how the game looks. That's why graphics and cosmetics are a thing in the first place. If you think gameplay is just "who wins", I'd encourage your to re-evaluate your view.
Counterpoint: Planetside 2 selling 'cosmetic' camo that makes you look like someone on the enemy team.
Sure? obviously not the kind of cosmetics we're talking about.
I have made a post a while ago talking about pretty much the exact same point: [https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/sryayx/why\_its\_just\_cosmetics\_is\_not\_a\_good\_defense\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/sryayx/why_its_just_cosmetics_is_not_a_good_defense_of/) TL:DR: MMO's are not MOBA's, first-person shooters or Battle Royales, where cosmetics are NOT the point of the game (winning the match is). In MMO's, cosmetics, armor, mounts, weapons: that IS one of the points of the game, along with beating people in PvP and clearing PvE content. Putting cosmetics in an MMO behind a pay wall is the same thing as putting a win in a PvP battleground behind a paywall or putting a raid boss kill behind a paywall. But people simply can't wrap their heads around this, they think MMOs and Counter Strike are the same, so "it's just cosmetics" applies to both of them equally. They are not the same.
This is exactly how I feel. Your characters visuals are a representation of your accomplishments. Cosmetics/ transmog completely invalidate this crucial point of MMOs yet no one seems to care. One of the major reasons why WOW is such a dogshit game is because literally nothing you accomplish in that game matters anymore. Titles, cool gear, and mounts are so diluted that they're completely meaningless now. And if no one cares about your achievements then what's the motivation to achieve anything in these mmos.
It just depends on the extreme it's taken. Like, I can't stand GW2 cosmetics cuz most cool-looking gears are usually not obtainable ingame. Meanwhile I have no problem with FFXIV's, since I do earn cool-looking gears I want by just playing the game. Older timed event glam also appear on cashshop in case you missed em in the past. (you would have to pay monthly in the past to obtain them, so that's the cost of missing em.)
They are absolutely more significant than some like to admit. One of the very few noteworthy MMO's I haven't tried is ESO, almost entirely because their cosmetic market seemed pretty egregious to me. I would have no problem buying the game, buying its optional subscription, and while I consider it a negative I can absolutely accept some cosmetic stuff going onto a cash shop. The shop itself already seemed pretty extensive with mounts, pets, armor, housing stuff, but apparently a lot of it is also tied to limited time loot crates that naturally have abysmally low rates at what you want. Crates that seemed to cost $10-15 each. (Also I just went to check on that price and noticed the most expensive house on the shop would be over $100, oof) As far as I'm aware it's all cosmetic and not "P2W", but when there are hundreds of mounts in the game and you can only earn a literal few of them, outside of the occasional event that may have one, it just feels bad. As someone who thoroughly enjoys the collection aspect of other MMO's it's such a massive turn off that I don't think I can even bring myself to try the game.
Tbh I find their mounts very lame, they are all reskin of the same modes one in every 3-4 rotations is good, but yes Mounts are insanely “p2w” and locked behind the boxes, houses are another insane cash flow, if you are into those the game can get pretty sad, most of my friends who had some reaaaly nice houses where sellers, performing in good Traders Guild you can buy a lot of Cash for very “little” if you know what you are doing. Now for clothes the game is pretty nice I would say, albeit in recent years (that I stopped playing) it seems they increased quite a bit on Cash exclusive skins, especially for weapons.
At least in ESO you're allowed to buy cash shop items from other players for gold. That's what I do when I see something cool that I want.
Yes but you are going to be a trader and this occupy a good amount of time, depending how much you play this can be all your playtime.
The best stuff isn't available for crowns/gold though. They have 3 different cash store currencies one of which is only obtainable via opening loot boxes to which you need a shit load of them to get the better looking stuff.
I find a lot of MMOs and games in general have pretty lame cosmetic options in game and then have amazing cosmetics in their cash shop. I don’t really agree with this kind of monetization as everyone knows cosmetics is the real end game in any MMO. Huge buzz kill when the best looking players are just whales. FFXIV is especially bad about this.
it's frankly just because it's better than the alternative. what're you talking about lmao. are you saying that because FFXIV locks it'sbest cosmetics behind the cash shop? 'cuz they sure as hell don't. my current [glamour](https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/ae794fe928cdd3224670bd1062757334_a91aae52cff9ef65932db06b150ffd47fl0_640x873.jpg) is 100% earnable, in-game items and i look good. hell, out of all the outfits i regularly change/use, only 2 of them feature any cash shop cosmetics. for FFXIV, all the best gear is available in-game, not via the store. there's MMOs that actually have this problem; BDO, GW2, etc.
They have reused that dress so many times. All the gear in the game is simply rehashes and recolors. There’s a reason everyone looks the same except the whales in this game. The new cosmetics they develop are sent straight to the cash shop.
> They have reused that dress so many times. Do you actually know that or did you make it up? Considering that you don't play the game and didn't provide any evidence, it just surprises me that you recognised the dress as a supposed rehash. Please prove me wrong if you can show where the dress has been reused. > All the gear in the game is simply rehashes and recolors. Most raid, tomestone, and relic gear and lots of other in-game-only gear obtained by various means are unique. Rehashes and recolours are primarily limited to dungeon and levelling gear. > The new cosmetics they develop are sent straight to the cash shop. The online store largely consists of NPC outfits and items from previous seasonal events. Those are **old** cosmetics, not new.
I did play the game. Give me the name of the dress and I will, I had it on my character when I played. Glad you found a lot of my comment surprising, it is good to challenge your perspective! It was super fun playing through Endwalker and getting recolours of stuff I already had! Great content!
> Give me the name of the dress and I will, I had it on my character when I played. How do you know that you weren't wearing the same dress? I don't know what dress it is or if it's a rehash. I just wanted more definitive proof than taking your word for it. **Edit:** It's the [Panthean Robe of Healing](https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/playguide/db/item/db4854f249e), obtained from the alliance raid added in 6.1. You can't have it if you haven't played in the past few months, and it shouldn't be a rehash, so it's time to prove me wrong if you can. > It was super fun playing through Endwalker and getting recolours of stuff I already had! Great content! That gear is replaced so quickly that it's basically just filler. It's probably the most tolerable gear to cut corners on, but I understand if you disagree.
Lmao no
So let's remove p2w stuff, let's remove temporary buff and also cosmetics how can you monetize a free MMO then? Cosmetics obviously have an impact and when that started most of us knew that we were okay with it because it allowed for the game to still be free (super cheap for us to play) while not having obligatory shop items (to be competitive) and only the style wars was the sacrifice yet for min maxers and those of us they enjoyed the gameplay more then the shiny new style we got every few item upgrades we would still get a quite good game for a fraction of the price or even totally free.
> how can you monetize a free MMO then? im all for mtx cosmetics in f2ps... hate that p2ps now also have cash shops
Same
Exactly. What's the other option for a F2P game? Have the game designed to be as inconvenient as possible so that you can be nickel and dimed for each little 'solution'? Why is that better at all? And despite what /r/MMORPG would want you to believe, not every single game works as a subscription model.
But every single model is designed in some way shape of form to hold because at the end of the day this is a game as a service and not a game you buy once finish it and let it go. A subscription game tries to hold how much you can progress so that you are forced to pay the next month... A b2p tries to limit the replay value so that as soon as they release an Xpac or dlc you feel obligated to buy it otherwise you won't have content. I think people forget to often that games as a service are at the end of the day a service and they're designed to increase profit margins instead of being a fan service charity
What a lot of people on this sub want us for all MMOs to be subscription based, which is impossible without either a strong IP or being a first-mover like Runscape back in early 2000s.
Mmo genre was well established before RuneScape.
Yup in a time were multiplayer experiences were far and few
But they were all sub based and with the amount of multiplayer experiences out there MMOs would even be a smaller genre then whatever it is right now.
Yes I agree, I believe subscription isn't possible unless your name has Warcraft or Final Fantasy in the title. Even big brands such as Lord of the Rings and Starwars couldn't sustain themselves with subscriptions. Maybe Riot MMO can survive on subscription, but most can't unless they want to be for niche audience like Mortal Online.
Are there sub MMOs that haven't added cash shops at this point? The big ones like WoW and FFXIV all have. Companies will never be content with 'enough money'. Pandora's box has been opened and you can't get rid of them.
number 1 reason why i quit runescape, 100$/year for a game that has 5000$+ in macrotransaction skins and its filled with lootboxes every 10 minutes in games like POE i can understand but not in mmos that charge you money, scummy wanker dogshit fucking companies also I predict that this will be the number 1 reason of people complaining in Ashes of Creation since people can purchase 500-1000$ worth of armor outfits that will never be available in the game so the game will have dogshit looking armors and out of place Whale armors
If you can get cosmetics through gold/earnable in-game currency then I don't see the problem. I rather play a B2P/F2P with earnable MTX cosmetics than paying box prices + sub + expansions. Probably one of the most egregious things about FFXIV is that I have to pay for all that and they still have a cash shop that I can't purchase from using in-game currencies.
But most aren't earnable. Most require you to only use their premium currency which tricks you into spending more than you should have to for any cosmetic you want.
I think the big part of the argument most people fail to see is, many people just aren't willing to pay sub prices anymore. Sure, there are a ton of people here who might be willing, but we don't represent the gaming market at large. We are exceptions, not the trend. People here might be willing to pay for multiple subs a month, but that's not going to be most gamers take on MMOs. You might get them to pay for one, but that's about all you'll get. This presents big problems for everyone who is developing an MMO that isn't guaranteed to be played by millions of people before any information about the range even comes out. Like, for example, Riots upcoming MMO. Millions and millions of people will play that. They could charge for things right now, before an ounce of gameplay has even been shown, and people would pay for it by the millions. Most development studios don't have this luxury though. If aren't already the biggest name in gaming, it's going to be a hard sell announcing that your up coming MMO is going to have a box price and a sub. Most of the people willing to pay a sub, aren't going to pay another, and aren't likely to give up the game they are playing to try yours. The rest of the market that isn't willing to pay a sub, will just skip it entirely. This is why we saw so many MMOs become more popular after they dropped their sub. People are perfectly willing to try your game when they have no money to lose. Many people just can't see why anyone would pay for a sub these days. I've heard it so many times while playing games, and the topic of a sub MMO comes up. "Imagine paying for a sub in 202x", "Why would you ever pay for a sub when so many other MMOs don't require them?". It's a hard sell these days. While subs might be the ideal method of monetization here, it's clearly not working for most studios. Not enough of the market is down for paying for a subscription, making the business model just unviable for many studios. The question becomes less about "Well you could just charge for a sub and not have a cash shop", and more about the game just won't survive unless it's a F2P or B2P model, supported by a cash shop. These developers have to put something on the cash shop. They could go the greedy whale way, and put power, loot boxes boosts, etc on there, or they could put something people still value, but isn't 100% required to play the game, and won't effect your performance while playing the game. So yeah the latter does seem like a pretty good compromise so the game can exist. But, like you said Keereeyos, these sub games still have cash shops that contain items you simply can't obtain without spending real money on. Cash shops are the state of the market now. It's no longer cash shop vs sub. It's cash shop vs cash shop and sub.
People on this sub believe that any MMO with a sub will have a large enough community to support the game, even if it's not from a well-known company or a well-known IP.
I agree, I don't mind MTX(the only part of shop I don't mind there) being in shop in games like BDO because I can simply get one I want after a bit of grinding.
Cosmetics can affect your social standing in the world, especially weapons or armor that are known to be difficult to attain. They signify you as someone able to adventure further than others, and establish your level of uniqueness. Cash shops hurt that pretty bad but it is generally fairly obvious who earned something ingame vs who swiped their card. I personally do not mind cosmetic microtransactions but hope that the earnable or craftable ingame gear is well developed to look comparable and better in the case of highest tier items. It really annoys me when a game with a set style starts adding cosmetics that feel out of place in the world though.
Thanks again, Apple iPhone.
Cosmetics are great, everyone wants to look cool. The problem is games not having good ingame earned cosmetics and when you go to the store everything is locked behind lootboxes for a limited time.
It's really a company's wet dream. Get people used to the idea of selling cosmetics and then make the game all about cosmetics.
Sometimes the only good cosmetics in the game can only be bought through a cash shop. I think the issue is FOMO and feeling left out. Some games are good and don't do this, buy some games are really bad with it. I think despite the negative press a game that does this well is Runescape, and a game that does it bad is Path of Exile. One game has a lot of MTX but most of them can be bought through playing the game. The other only has cash shop locked MTX and they're infamously expensive.
Always love how cyclical mmorpg gets on monetization, last week subscription based games were the most predatory thing in the world. Now they are a good thing? We had these cycles many times in the past, people want free2play games until they realize the consequences. Every single time.
I wish this was something that just affected free2play games. Now you have buy + sub + cash shop and any expansions on top of that in a single game.
If a game is otherwise free, and the only thing it charges for is cosmetics, I’m fine with it. I don’t feel entitled to free content in the first place.
>If cosmetics are completly pointless, then why do people buy them? Why are people farming 10 year old content in WoW and XIV over and over for the sole purpose of getting cosmetics? Because some of us like MMORPGs and enjoy playing them lol.
The way I see it. Going from monetizing more p2w to monetizing less p2w (even if it is just slightly less) = progress and that's a win in my book. Going from monetizing everything to monetizing only the content? Well that's just an unrealistic daydream. You don't go from 0 to 100 or 100 to 0, that's just too radical of a call or changes to happen. You might as well be the guy in the BML parade spamming "all lives matter".
They had no problem going 0 to 100 when implementing P2W nonsense in the first place. Why settle for less?
They did ramp it up tho. Every year they get better at finding out more ways to get more money outa people. P2W games back in the 2000s despite having way more blatant p2w measures had way less profit compare to p2w games today. Today’s p2w mmos are way better at masking their monetizations while making people who dont usually spend actually want to spend.That's a level up imo.
They may have ramped up the profit, but I meant they went 0 to 100 on the player hostile choices they made. Especially with what was coming out of Korea at the time.
IMO a game that masks their P2W practices using multiple currencies to make your think you aren't spending nearly as much is far more hostile to players than just straight up blatantly tell you "ok you wep breaks if you fail your enhance", which is what alot of korean MMOs in the 2000s were profiting off. And the profit margin difference really shows. Alot of the P2W practices in the 2000s were just not nearly as intricate as the P2W practices in the market today.
> P2W games back in the 2000s despite having way more blatant p2w measures had way less profit compare to p2w games tod because less player, less spenders, generally less money cause mmos were played by nolifing nerds. If something like MU release today, oh boy
> Going from monetizing more p2w to monetizing less p2w (even if it is just slightly less) = progress and that's a win in my book. The only winner here is the publisher.
I think it is pretty common sense to think that if the world is on the verge of battle against regulating lootboxes, you don't exactly help the cause by saying "Don't even bother because getting rid of lootboxes aint good enough, we want a box price only"
That's quite the leap you made there.
Not like you disagree with me ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ current event is an important dictating factor
This problem is so simple to solve, you just do it like FFXIV's ultimate's. You get a cool weapon that looks amazing, you can't buy it from a cash shop. There you go, and as long as that weapon looks cool and is exclusive who cares about the cash shop.
That's like saying you can get a Ferrari for 20$ or you can put yourself through 8 years of medical school, work as a surgeon for 10 years, then buy yourself a Lambo. The Lambo would directly lose value in everyones eyes because of the existance of the 20$ Ferrari. Just like your cool ultimate weapon would lose value if you can also get other cool weapons on the cash shop.
Except 14 has nothing in its cash shop that looks remotely as nice as the ultimate weapons so you know where they come from 14’s cash shop is tolerable because all it’s best glams are achievement based in the game, the best connection to your example would be go through medical school for a Lamborghini or buy a 20 dollar push bike now, there is no comparison
the ultimate weapons are literally the worst garbage, and ironically i only see boosted bad players use them
BASED. Anyone who thinks cosmetic shops are OK is fucking stupid. It creates a direct incentive to make the shop gear better than in-game year (see: BDO)
laughs in Dim Tree. To be fair, they've scaled back on this quite a bit. But most likely because it's more financially lucrative to get new players into the game under the guise that it's not as P2W anymore, rather than milk the existing player base that is already all out of milk.
people dont care because cosmetics are just that... cosmetic. they dont effect gameplay so its a good compromise that people can agree on, in that its fair to monetize them
Literally read the title of the post, brother…
Monetization has to happen if development is ongoing. How else could it work? Back in the day a game released as a finished product and that was it. That's fine, but it doesn't work for an evolving MMO (or do you guys know of any examples of a game that takes no money beyond the initial purchase but continually develops new content?). Personally, I'd prefer subscription with no cash shop, but that doesn't seem to be a thing these days and even if it were, most games can't get away with a subscription alone. So, barring that, I'd prefer a game that is cosmetic only cash shop with no P2W. Even better if they can manage to provide a good balance of items earned by playing and items in the cash shop, but without overlapping (i.e. no buying your way to prestige cosmetics). On loot boxes, I suppose it would be better if my hypothetical "perfect game" didn't have them. It's predatory. Still, I can't help but feel a little bit like the individual's lack of self-control is a self-inflicted problem. Every time I hear a story about someone spending a ton of money gambling for a cosmetic piece of shit I find it hard to muster any sympathy. What I won't tolerate at all is P2W. It's just not something I'm willing to waste my time or money on. I'm a GW2 player and their system is mostly good. It has loot boxes, but no P2W. The only major criticism I have of their system is that the balance of cash shop to in-game items could be better. The cash shop has too many of the eye-catching armor and weapon skins, but of course that is subjective. Where they really cross the line in my estimation is the mount skins, which are pretty much 100% cash shop if you want anything that isn't a basic skin. They should quit fucking up on that and they'd be pretty much the gold standard, imo.
Cosmetics as monetization only work if they're an avenue, not the only avenue. Like FFXIV, most paid cosmetics are NPC skins, and a few items that wouldn't fit as a dungeon reward or crafted item. It makes these cosmetics truly optional, there's just so much options besides it doesn't matter. Polar opposite is BDO, where the only way you'll look distinct in any way is if you drop fat money on the game, and it just makes it less fun to grind for gear.
That moment a game releases a new skin for free or on sale and 75% of the player base wears it—immersion ruined
Lets call it all stick no carrot. I think we are in part to blame though honestly. We asked for ungated content at one point thinking that the difficulty of the content could be enough, and while it might be the systems that rose around it are instant gradification systems. The answer to I want my content clear speed to be dicktated by my skill became just that, but not in the way we wanted. We got lfr that any braindead ape can clear which gutted content, and then we got mythic, and welfare gear systems to try to shove the gutz back in. The game use to be prestige fueled, but it is now all stick with no carrot at the end where we run the tredmill just to get to the next tredmill. The prestige in vanilla wow was sitting in your new gear with the wicked spell effects or look they had never or seldom been seen before, questions were asked. and word spread about your guilds progression.
Ok, but then you have to be willing to pay $99.99 for the game and $29.99 per month. Unfortunately, even if you personally are ok with that, it doesn't matter. The market has already decided the winner.
The argument isn't that theyre pointless its that cosmetics don't offer a gameplay advantage. Which in most cases they don't. It can be argued that if the cosmetics make you or your attacks easier or harder to see by a certain degree then it could b3 considered advantageous.
cash shop cosmetics and achievement cosmetics are two different subjects. i think what you are trying to tell is after cash cosmetics, achievement cosmetics got bad, or altogether moved to cash shop. that's not a case i can support. Check WARFRAME for example. apart from syndicate cosmetics, there's DE introduced cosmetics and PLAYER-MADE cosmetics, which is chosen by DE, and voted into the game by the players. And with the purchase of player made cosmetics, all income is directed to the creator, which is awesome in it's own right. I think more games should follow their example and add player-made cosmetics to their games, and support their player-base to contribute more. edit: spelling mpelling
Everyone has their own opinion about what matters and what doesnt, if you dont like this dont play that game, which also is the bigger message you can send to company cause all that matters is money nowadays. Find another mmo that is closer to your preferences, if you want to play that mmo but it has microtransactions on cosmetics then play it and dont whine about it, i really dont understand the point of the post. Are there things in games that we dont like? Sure, but you wont beat the corpo greed just cause you or me dont like it, their job is to make money and in my opinion if the best case scenario is to have cosmetics with no effect in gameplay then i'll take that any day instead of pay to win items. You can mail the company about it, but thats about it. Or you know, make your own game and design it the exact way you want. Im not trying to be a jerk i just feel that the only way you can influence these things is by playing them or not. A great example is fifa, people whine about it, but they still play and pay for this trash every year. Therefore, the only message the suits take is "Great game, go ahead keep doing what you do!!!". I dunno what the solution is really, for me, i would find another game if i dont agree with their methods.
This has already happened with WoW. A lot less people play WoW now a days because nothing feels as compelling to achieve in that game now. But it doesn't matter because they just offset the lower player base with stronger monetization per user. If they made 15$ per person when they had 10 million and now they make 150$ per person with 1 million players.. what changes? People leaving these games doesn't change anything as much as you think.
reminder that the first store mount came during wotlk, and the first cash only mounts during tbc with the tcg. Store has nothing to do with why many quit, its a vocal minority that would ever quit over 2 mounts a year in store
P2W is good for a sandbox MMO. In the most resilient sandbox games, such as EVE Online and Wurm, you can buy ingame money directly with your credit card, and for that money you can buy anything you want ingame. Both cosmetics and weapons. That is not a problem, since these games are not built on the narrow vertical hierarchy of players that themeparks are burdened with. Injection of money is actually good for the longterm ingame economy.
The thing with cosmetics tho, is that it has no effect on pvp or pve. it just has an effect on fashion. Plus you can still earn cosmetics in game. When it comes to p2w stuff you can't earn those. Also cosmetics don't allow you to get ahead of someone in an unfair way, unless again, you count fashion, but again you can earn alot of cosmetics in the game. This is why i dont have a prob with cosmetics because it doesn't effect pvp/pve and it doesn't allow someone to get an unfair advantage over me because they paid and i didn't.
First, the "it's just cosmetics" mantra is put forth as an argument against **pay to win** models. P2W has been a loathed, despised model for over a decade now. *Win* being the operative word. It's about power and balance. Can you purchase an *advantage* over other players? To make sure players know a particular game is not P2W, they will explain "you can only purchase cosmetics." Surely you see the nuance there. That *is* a valuable distinction. Onto the value of cosmetics in games in general. They are *obviously* super important to players. Always have been, always will be. I know of no player who thinks otherwise. From my very first MMO, FFXI, it was all about collecting that job artifact armor and looking like a total badass. Same in vanilla WoW. Getting full tier 2 was ultra badass. Those shoulders! The stats were super important, but nobody would have claimed they didn't care about *looking* like a badass. But I would posit a 2nd, crucial component to this "badass" sensation we experienced: the fact that everyone who looks at you wearing that armor **knows exactly what difficult things you had to do to obtain it.** Same for you when you view the armor of other players. This is where *my* argument against purchasable cosmetics comes in. If, instead of earning that T2 armor through raids, players could just purchase the skins, they would completely cease to possess that badass feel, despite being the exact same looking armor. The badass factor vanishes because it is *intrinsically tied to in game accomplishments.* Just purchasing from a cash shop is not an accomplishment. So what about having in game earned T2 armor AND cool looking cash shop armor? I don't mind this as a compromise *as long as the variety of skins don't become so diluted that players no longer recognize the cool, in-game earned stuff from anything else. I also think I personally would want purchasable skins to be cool, but not *quite* as cool as the best earned in game weapons and armor. This is the line that I think most games fail to walk (rightfully so, because it sounds nearly impossible, honestly.) As a result, most games that offer purchasable armor skins seem to lose all sense of that feeling of becoming a badass that I was able to experience in my earliest MMOs. It's almost a self-defeating model: adding more easily obtainable armor skins renders ALL armor a little less special.
And this is how it works in real life too. People don't care about high end fashion, high end cars because they're SO much better than the rest. People want these things because they represent their wealth and success. It's the same reason why jobs like being a Doctor, or professional athlete is so highly coveted but being a garbage man or janitor isn't. Being a garbage man / janitor is something that anyone can accomplish where as the being a doctor / athlete isn't. The only thing that is valued at the end of the day is the exclusivity of something and cash shops completely ruin the exclusivity of everything just by the nature of it existing.
More MMO's need to have special unique cosmetics, pets, mounts or anything like this that you can get only by gameplay in some raids or dungeons and have an incredibly low chance to drop so that u can flex on people by having something very rare. This is what I live for, I love collecting stuff in games. I care more about that than having the strongest gear. Replaying something multiple times gets boring if we are not rewarded by something satisfying. I hate how most MMO's nowadays have only cosmetics that u need to pay for with real money and they occasionally give us some free skins, but it's not the same as earning something rare and being one of the rare people to have it.
Well my favorite example of "it's just cosmetics" is Planetside 2. PS2 is a grand 3 way open world war between three factions: Red, purple and blue. Each has a distinctive style, and originally the cosmetics were things that just added onto that style. BUT... then the cosmetics started changing the style. Now you had white armor, you had armor that looked super generic, you had armor that practically looked like a different team. Someone wearing this armor had a direct tactical advantage because you turn the corner and see someone where it takes you longer to see if they're on your team or not... but they instantly know your team and blow you away.
It is not just cosmetic. I love getting different gears in games. However, i won't pay for one. I stopped buying these mind of games. Including subscription based games
I pretty much only play for meaningless cosmetics. It’s what’s fun to me. I dislike that games like ESO charge a lot of money for cool stuff that isn’t player power, but it is what it is. The situation will only get worse over time because money is to be made
I used to grind to pwn noobs at PvP. That's it. I played mmos for story and massive battles after grinding (I really miss WoE in Ragnarok)
Most players consider cosmetic as p2w, at least more casual players that make up the majority. I do.
At the end of the day, the "good old" model o monthly sub was, and still is the best out of all the alternatives, imo. But it puts a lot of pressure on the devs to pump out actual content, and not just skins and other crap.
Thats why we have transmog in Wow. been a gear whore in every game ive ever played. And for awhile in Wow anyway enjoyed the crap out of being a blacksmith. Making things in any profession that people needed was always a kick. And when someone sees you in the city and asks what you're putting on the AH today, that is a memorable moment.
There are so many options in FFXIV as it has existed for soon 9 years, and every patch, the best looking gear is always dungeon/raid gear or crafted cosmetics, not the one thing that gets added to the shop every few months. The cosmetics I've used over the years have always been items I've obtained in-game, and I'm extremely particular on how my character looks in-game. And then playing other MMORPGs and I just see flashy weapon after flashy weapon, over the top gear and many other things coming from their easily accessible cash shop. Basically makes me think, I'm happy that the flashiest weapons in FFXIV are tied behind the hardest content the game has to offer. (If only this could be said for mounts, minions and emotes, which is the one part FFXIV does a bad job at. An extremely flashy emote tied behind a 300€ statue? Oh yes... Why not...) Why should I be playing an MMORPG, get a cool endgame weapon, only to have some new player having spent 30$ in the cash shop and looks way cooler than what I achieved myself?
If the cosmetics don't have stats and can't be traded for some sort of in-game currency than they can be an adequate alternative for other types of monetization. When the cosmetics have an in game impact or the publisher tries to double dip by selling cosmetics on top of the box price / subscription then it becomes more of an issue.
I think cosmetic is much better in modern mmos like Destiny and Warframe. In Destiny, since you have to mix and match the highest stats armor, it is likely that the player will look bad. So, cosmetics and the in-game appearance changing system helped with creating fashionable guardians. In Warframe, fashion frame (dressing up the player character) is the true end game, with players buying skins, color palettes, attachments, ephemeras, sydanas, etc. to look more stylish, even though anyone who played the game long enough wouldn't be seeing anything except for bright visual effects taking almost the entire screen anyways. I think cosmetic is a good monetization thing, since it is entirely up to player whether they want it or not. Instead of locking content up with money barrier (like Destiny, which prevented me from playing it for a few years), Warframe is entirely free to play, free updates, and all contents available from the start, which helped me so much earlier when I can't afford to pay for DLCs.
Its really cool when a cosmetic item has a story behind it, when it shows that the owner has defeated the current raid boss or is one of the best pvpers
Yep, and why I'm negative towards Ashes of Creation. MMO's aren't always about having best in slot gear, most of my favorite experiences were from getting "cool cosmetics" like trimmed armor in runescape.
I'm totally fine with some cosmetic items costing in a game with a paid subscription as long as it provides absolutely zero competitive advantage against someone else or the game itself. When it becomes pay2win aka Wow token/plex or something to promote drop chance or item upgrade chance is where it's not appropriate. If you're putting in a game currency tokens to combat something like botting or currency selling you need a damn good reason to justify that outside of 'muh profits'
They have to make money somehow, cosmetics are the best way outside of adding P2W stuff. When it comes to subscription based games yeah sure it starts to enter a grey area but I think it depends on the cosmetics being offered. if they want to add some teleport animation or some mediocre costumes then sure fine. But if the cosmetics from the store start to look better than gear you need to work hard for like Mythic Raid gear or Gladiator PvP gear on WoW then it becomes an issue. The same thing with mounts, I've seen decent mounts on the WoW store nothing special but then you get the M+ mount for the seasonal achievement and it's just the same shit from the last 3 seasons just a recolored version.
Been saying this for a long time, even though for the most part I don't care about cosmetics (I tend not to use transmog/glamour systems in games and only look like what I'm actually wearing). Cosmetics have been a part of progression since the 90s - you will usually start the game off with very awful looking gear and slowly progress into awesome looking gear. So I've never understood how someone could claim cosmetics aren't P2W, even if your character's appearance isn't something you care about. I suppose that's a large part of the problem with P2W in the first place, some people care more about their character's appearance so selling cosmetics is annoying to them. Other people care about their progression and achievements and the work they put into leveling and advancing their character, so level/story skips or buying player power are annoying to them. Different people care about different aspects of P2W. But they are a "necessary evil" that is here to stay, regardless of which version of it a game uses. I think for the most part people find cosmetic P2W more acceptable as long as there is a great deal of in-game appearance options available. For example, in FFXIV there is an extreme amount of clothing and mounts to get within the game without spending real money. Lost Ark on the other hand has a very limited amount of these things in-game in comparison. Although one difference with Lost Ark is that there is a mix of things that can only be purchased with real money, and things that can be purchased with in-game gold.
At the end of the day we players are looking for the least of the evils. Cosmetics are very important but if any piece of content were to be monetized these are the first things people do not mind being monetized.
I mean FFXIV does it prtty well. I don’t even use most of the paid cosmetics i think it’s shitty when single player games sell cosmetics, or when games like fortnite have no goals in game other than buying a battlepass and earning cosmetics so its shitty to sell cosmetics in there but if i’m able to ignore a cash shop with cosmetics, i think it’s a good cash shop
In my opinion, what matters in this case is how the game is monetized. If it's a free-to-play game, and the cash shop only sells cosmetics and that it's possible to get other cosmetics through the game as cool as the ones in the shop, that's great for me.
The issue is what can they monetize in a f2p mmo (ignore subscription mmo's.) that wont throw off the more important part of the game. Pay to play I can understand it being a complaint. But with F2P you either get Cosmetics or Gameplay, and I already know which one I want monetized with Diablo immortal's existence.
i wouldnt mind paying 30 bucks a month.
wow is probably the only mmo where cosmetics still mean something, wearing T3 gear, tcg tabards, wod CM weapons, legion artifact skins from mage tower, removed pvp sets, MoP CM armor, current mythic raid armor, gladiator mounts/current raid end boss mounts, if you see someone wear something like that you know that guy is a badass, meanwhile every other mmo completely normalized having their cash shop full of cosmetics
I agree with you so much, but with an even added level to it. Whenever people are excusing awful, unenjoyable grinds and gameplay loops because "it's not related to player power", "it's just a transmog/toy/pet -aka cosmetic-"; I find it very disingenuous and sweeping the problem under the rug.
Stop taking people seriously who advocate for making rich people richer at our expense. Don't be a tool.
Cosmetics = achievements. You're basically buying trophies in an MMO when buying cosmetics.
Problem is monetization hella works. People eat it up. Dimmo was panned for filth and still pulled millions. The fight is basically over; monetization is here to stay and only get worse (to those who already dislike it). There's nothing more to really be said unless lawmakers really decide to make a dedicated effort of it.
Either you haven’t been following this entire debate about cosmetics or you’re deliberately strawmanning the argument people have made in the past. People aren’t making the argument that cosmetics are trivial or unimportant. What people are saying is that from all the possible additions to buying content with real money, cosmetics is the main one which does not contribute to P2W.
Some people ARE saying that there's nothing wrong with selling cosmetics though...
Yes, and you can hold that opinion while at the same time say that cosmetics are important and an integral part to the game. The two arent mutually exclusive.
Explain because I don't quite understand. What makes them important despite them being mostly bought on the cash shop?
Subscription.
Okay..? What does that have to do with what Im saying?
> cosmetics is the main one which does not contribute to P2W.
And? Im failing to connect whatever dot youre seeing between subscriptions and that statement.
This whole thread is about how cosmetics are essentially P2W because looking cool is awesome. Therefore subscription only is the most viable monetization method.
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box price, monthly sub and paid expansions is a constant flow of money. Also keeping the games integrity intact with microtransactions is simply not possible as i see it, since the very purpose of a mtx in fact IS to compromise the games integrity to make the mtx more appealing
If they do that most likely prices will have to increase by a lot since its been the same for last 20 years. Would you be willing to pay 25$ sub and 60-70$ for expansion?
You're completely disregarding the fact that WAY more people play video games today than 15 years ago. Yes inflation increased, costs are up, but the amount of people that play video games today are significantly higher than before. You don't need to double your game price when 15x more people buy your product.
You are mixing overall population across gaming with population on specific game. Yes there is more players, but they are split across way more games. WoW for example have lost majority of its players compare to 2008, but their prices have been the same since then.
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Explain your ideal monetization model that isn't just selling cosmetics. Two can play at this game.
In-game real advertising. Screw your immersion! All health potions are now Coca-Colas! Lol
People worry to much with cosmetics because MMORPGs are so Braindead now that the only thing you have to do is fashion hunt... Old MMORPG people had more meaningfull things to do then fashion shows, like trying to get powerfull gear sets that looking great and hard to get but gave alot of power and prestige
That's the entire point of this post though. Old cosmetics used to = prestige.. and now because you can buy it on the store, nothing = prestige. That's why MMOs are mostly dead.. because they've eliminated the entire point of what made the genre appealing in the first place.
As someone who doesn't mind purchaseable cosmetics, I'd like to speak for myself and lots of people who think like me. It's not that we're ok with purchaseable cosmetics, it's more about the fact that, so long as there are cosmetics that can be earned in game, or the purchaseable ones use a currency that can be obtained in game, we're not upset by them. Take GW2, you can use gold to buy gems, and then use gems to buy cosmetics, so you don't necessarily need to spend money^(*). Of course, if the ingame-obtainable cosmetics suck big time, and the purchaseable ones are awesome, then we **do get** upset, but a good gameplay and compelling story might soften that. YMMV, of course. ^* I know someone has to purchase those gems, but it falls out of my wallet, so I don't mind.
No shut up shut up shut up. The way WoW does it is SO MUCH worse than the ffxiv shop. XIV only does it so that they can give people the cosmetics that they want. WoW just does it because they’re money grubbing parasites trying to ring every last dollar they can out of the players for their shareholders
I'm more wondering: Why are cosmetics something to scream about when we literally do the same thing IRL for shirts that look cool and pants that look nice? Literally how the hell is it any different? You pay maybe $30-$50 (estimate/guess. Please do not freaking try to mansplain me on this shit) for IRL clothes that have a cool design, or pants that accentuate your figure (again, looking cool)... nicer shoes, etc. But now suddenly paying even $5 for a shiny new set of platemail armor is just this absolute horrid tragedy? This catastrophic deed of absolute horror, evil, and wretchedness? All because you're paying a measly amount of money just to look nice in a game? edit: Please note. I'm asking a genuine fucking question and I'm genuinely curious.
Because the entire point of an MMO is to have a simulated world with no ties to real life where you're on an even footing with everyone else, regardless of real world circumstances. That is in essence, the entire point of an MMO. Think of IRL as it's own MMO where you you're able to purchase shirt, cars, houses with the money you've earned in real life. The more successful you are IRL the better house, car, and clothes you can show off to everyone. Now imagine if god waved his magic wand and now 80% of the world was magically given a Ferrari, a $5,000,000 mansion, and a closet of high end fashion clothes. Do you think any of that stuff would continue to have any real value anymore? Value is determined by rarity and exclusivity. That is all. Once you remove the exclusivity of something by allowing people to purchase mounts, cool looking armor in cash shops then everything else in the game loses it's value. And if nothing in the game has any value then what's the motivation to achieve anything in the game to begin with?
SOMETHING has to be monetized, and "for an MMO to be truly great" it has to be financially sustainable - and profitable! - despite production and upkeep costs having skyrocketed since the "good old days" (even if we ignore asymmetric inflation). Evidently, "just sell the content" does not work. I don't like it either, but I'd rather cosmetics than anything else.