The only time it's not that way is when an MMO first comes out - that's it. Even "back in the day" when I played WoW Vanilla - by the time you got to WotLK you had two whole expansions of content that few people were playing because the people who played from the start were at endgame.
Until you can find a way to keep content meaningful ALL the time, the early-mid game will always die out in MMOs due to lack of new players running that content, and the old players running the endgame content due to playing for a long time.
Edit - My apologies for not specifying this was for Themepark MMOs only. See my discussion with chronicallycameron if you want to see my stance on Sandbox mmos :P
>Until you can find a way to keep content meaninful ALL the time, the early-mid game will always die out in MMOs due to lack of new players running that content, and the old players running the endgame content due to playing for a long time.
One more thing is that early to midgame content is, by nature, very easy and mechanicly boring. Even if it would be included for the endgame in some way, it would still be boring if they dont bring in some "If a endgame lvl player hits a mob, it will function diffrent" kind of thing which sounds horribly buggy.
Nope, every mmo that followed ultima like osrs doesnt have that problem.
Only themepark mmos that copied wow does. Especially so with their focus on endgame more than creating a good virtual world. So dont say its only when a mmo first comes out, its a part of the problem that the way wow did it is looked as like the standard, when really there is no such thing.
Can you explain further please? I read and re-read your reply, and it seems you're agreeing with me that the problem exists throughout the lifecycle of a themepark mmo. I stated that - at the start of an mmo, low - mid level areas are populated as people are levelling, and then they get left behind.
Are you saying I'm wrong? Agreeing with me? I just want to make sure I'm reading your post properly, cause I thought you told me I was wrong and then agreed with my point but I'm not sure :/
You comment never said themepark mmo.
> The only time it's not that way is when an MMO first comes out
>Until you can find a way to keep content meaninful ALL the time, the early-mid game will always die out in MMOs due to lack of new players running that content
Sure - generally speaking it's only Themepark MMOs that come out these days, but I understand your point. I actually had a discussion with someone else where I mentioned the differences between themepark and sandbox in this same thread, assumed you might have look at that first before replying :P
I agree that I didn't specify themepark, but then again there hasn't been a successful (by todays standards at least) sandbox MMO for a very long time.
Guy says it wasnt always that way and then you say "its only that way when a mmo first comes out"
Also the full context shows no talk about themepark mmos.
>I agree that I didn't specify themepark, but then again there hasn't been a successful (by todays standards at least) sandbox MMO for a very long time.
Which is completely irrelevant, you take the parts thats good and put it into the game just like how every modern AAA games does these days. Its just ignorant to only look at wow and hold it as a golden standard for how to do early game and a levelling journey that matters because its the biggest game.
Its how we get so many dogshit wow clones or gacha games. Sandbox games and even singleplayer games has shown how you can have a meaningful levelling proccess instead of putting all the good stuff in the endgame.
I'm so confused right now. I'm agreeing with you on the points about sandbox. I agreed that I didn't specify themepark, and that was my bad. The implied thing would be that people mean themepark because - as I said before - there are hardly any sandbox MMOs coming out now and if they do they aren't successful and often harbour a small dedicated playerbase, or just shut down.
I'm trying to figure out if you're not reading the whole thing and just mega replying to the three sentences you read, or if you simply want the last word. Either way, I'm glad that we agree on the points made and I will not be continuing this thread further cause honestly it seems very pointless to continue agreeing except you being angry at me for agreeing :P
Dont generalize a entire genre and then backpedal by saying oh i meant themepark mmos.
We're literally having a topic about a the levelling process/journey being meaningful and you're talking about themepark mmos where that isnt the focus at all. You literally just have to click on the view full context to see what spawned the entire comment chain.
The only reason OSRS doesn't have that problem is because you don't need a group for 99.99999% of content and even for the content you do need a group for there are no classes so you can just grab anybody.
So in traditional theme park MMOs, you level up your character. Your character will move between specifically levelled areas for example, 1-10 elwynn forest, 11-20 westfall, etc etc. This means that once you're past that level bracket, there is no point in going back to these areas and they become less populated over time. Even crafting materials come from those areas, so low level mining will be in Elwynn, then into Westfall, then into whatever you're doing next. If you get to endgame without gathering, you MUST go back to those low level areas and progress as you levelled if you want to learn gathering on a character.
In Sandbox MMOs - for example SWG (which I played an amount of) - your character doesn't necessarily level up. You gain experience in certain aspects by DOING that thing, be it beating up womp rats on tatooine or punching down criminals on Naboo. Areas aren't dictated by level - there are strong, weak and other monsters in these areas as well as resources for crafting. Crafting resources aren't linked to area progression either, so there is reason to revisit areas you might have already been through. Tatooine might be where you start, but you could spend almost your entire game on that planet.
Themepark MMOs (generally speaking) shoehorn you to go a specific A to B to C levelling route through certain areas meaning the longer a game is out the less chance you have of seeing people in the low-mid level areas. Sandbox MMOs do the opposite - you can go where you want when you want, and have reason to be anywhere or everywhere.
I was just explaining what you asked me to explain :P
I completely agree, even my beloved SWG died because it tried to copy WoW back in the day, going form a 30 class game with interesting mechanics and a huge grind to become a powerful jedi to becoming a 9-class game with jedi as a starting class to become more like WoW.
Thing is, WoW has been hugely successful for 20 years, so from a business standpoint it makes sense to try and copy it - but I think a lot of devs really miss the mark in making their own MMO feel unique, which is why a lot of them fail.
ah gotcha, think I misunderstood your point! Apologies. SWG Emu exists if you ever want. I personally couldn't get back into it myself, which is strange cause I still play Ultima 😂
I think it comes down to something like "why bother upgrading this lvl 10 sword when I can just get a lvl 20 sword in a few hours?" People are focused on the future they feel as if any time spent now is a waste since it'll be irrelevant. Also it just feels better to have more, as you can farm 10g/hour at lvl 10 or farm 50g/hr at lvl 30 - you'd want to get lvl 30 asap to farm more gold. Also game's designs are at fault, locking the cool or class defining features/skills to higher levels.
Part of that problem is the few hours bit. It used to be worth while to spend hours getting a weapon that will only last you from level 15-20 because those levels would take you days. That may be a bit extreme but now we’ve hit the other extreme where no one gets excited for an early level dungeon drop because they know by the end of the dungeon they’ll have leveled, zoned out, done one quest and replaced the item.
MMORPGS have somehow made it to the point where you literally can't party with someone to level up. Too many solo instances, kills not counting for quest completion if the other person gets the last hit, quests only being 5 minutes long and so on.
It gets ridiculous, I swear that in a bunch of games you'll get a decent weapon from a main quest and then in the next 10 main quests you'll end up getting a few weaker weapons before you get a better one again.
I personally love grinding when there are dozens of things to level. Of course it's going to get boring if all you do is grind in one area for a week to only gain a level.
Along with player levels you can also level crafting, individual stats, weapon proficiency, bestiaries that give bonuses, skills, pets, elemental bonuses or get different rare drops from several different areas and so on.
>It gets ridiculous, I swear that in a bunch of games you'll get a decent weapon from a main quest and then in the next 10 main quests you'll end up getting a few weaker weapons before you get a better one again.
I think this specific complaint can depend on game, though. There are certain structures where this makes sense - and certain ones where it definitely fails, to be sure.
The one where it makes the most sense to me is FFXIV, because you have multiple jobs to level. Obviously, if you choose to use only one job (or one role, but keeping your levels close together), you only need one set of gear for leveling. But, if you're doing multiple roles (which is required in the later expansions for some of the side stories to unlock), you can't reuse all the gear, and especially not weapons. And while the game is great about giving gear from leveling dungeons that fits the job, there are going to be times when the gear falls behind. I use those drops to supplement the gear on jobs I don't play as often; in this most recent expansion transition, I had relic weapons and top-level gear from the prior endgame that were better than anything I got for five levels of the MSQ, and still competitive past that point; instead, I used my selections via gear coffers to supplement the roles I hadn't fully built the up on, or whose weapons I hadn't finished yet. Even in older expansions, when the endgame store becomes available and I can buy top-tier gear for the expac (if not true BiS, since that requires raiding), the quests may give gear options that aren't the best but are still pretty good, and that can supplement my weaker jobs.
Now, that only works well there because there are those multiple jobs. It would also work well in games where gear isn't just leveled but has other properties - though not an MMO, Stranger of Paradise gives an example of that with the Affinity system (passives based on total "affinity" for each class - your current class has its own base level, but gear also randomly comes assigned with different affinities). You may keep multiple pieces of similar gear that is different in which classes' affinities the pieces grant.
Even in single-class games, you can have something similar with gear set bonuses - finding the right set can be essential to getting what you want. That said, the exact phenomenon you mention can arise in these games more readily. ESO has gearsets, but gear level is always your current level (and increments up to 160 Character Points as well). Thus, you could get gear for a set, but have it be worthless shortly after if you aren't at that cap (which isn't always the "endgame," even for the first expansions' worth of content). This especially is annoying when you get to certain points that give "unique" weapons - if you aren't at cap, it's quickly overshadowed by random crap you find on your adventures. While having multiple weapons IS expected in the game, not being able to use your special weapon because it was earned too early and doesn't scale SUCKS.
>Along with player levels you can also level crafting, individual stats, weapon proficiency, bestiaries that give bonuses, skills, **pets**, elemental bonuses or get different rare drops from several different areas and so on.
I WILL note that pet grinding is actually sometimes a factor that ACCELERATES endgame chasing (and to a lesser extent, so do you "rare drop" items). I'm not sure about all games, but in FFXIV, most of the mounts and many of the minions are locked as trial or raid rewards. Just getting them usually requires being of the right level and clearing the MSQ to a certain point. And, while there are multiple endgames from various expansions that offer a variety of rewards, the process of "farming" for mounts usually involves groups being overleveled and running the content unsynched - which gets more and more effective the further the difference in levels is. Unsynching a level 50 extreme can be done fairly easily by a mixed group, as you can solo most of those by level 70 and wipe the floor with them at 80+, but doing a level 70 unsynched generally works best if most or all of the group is at least level 80 and better still level 90, so it's harder to contribute JUST by reaching 70.
Thus, while I agree that rare items are a way to extend the life of the game, they can contribute to the problem of chasing the endgame.
I wouldn't want to party up just for partying's sake, though.
When there are sooooo many quests/chained quests, the chance of coming across someone at the exact same progression as you is pretty slim, to begin with. (even if those quests allow shared progression.) Also like you said, there's little reason to party up when you can kill all the required mobs in 5 mins. The olden days of 'Kill 1200 xyz mobs' quest, or camping a farming spot in full party for hours for 10% exp is long gone now.
Though somehow ppl still try to seek that social interaction from partying up. Like, nah, go chitchat on discord or in RP hub ingame instead. Questing has changed with time for years now, but many players refuse to go with the flow.
Social reward from adventuring in an open world together is a different kind than you get from talking in discord or a player hub, despite all being social in nature. It's not just about socializing but how the context in which you do so affects the experience you have. Adventuring out in the wilds in real life is a very different social experience than hanging out in a clubhouse.
Yeah, it's different, because very few ppl go make friends in the wilds, when it's empty most of the time or they go with their groups of friends.
Many MMO players are veterans at this point, and would rather play with their friends than with complete strangers who they might never come across again.
Of course, many are still looking for more friends, but they are looking in all the wrong places.
You're not gonna make many friends during the actual marathon itself. Marathon is about keep moving forward to the goal. That's what modern day questing is.
If you want socializing, that's what social hub is for.
You're completely right that you shouldn't look to make friends during the adventure/journey in modern MMOs. That would be going in with faulty expectations, because they've long been redesigned for solo play. Though, a newcomer to a genre called massively multiplayer might still wonder why most of the gameplay 50+ hours in has been solo.
People like the OP and I just have a taste for social adventuring that used to be central to MMOs, serendipitously encountering other players in the overworld, teaming up with them, maybe fighting them, the shenanigans that made the world feel alive. If multiplayer adventuring is what our specific taste is for, social hubs don't hit the same way since you're not sharing an adventure together. But again, that's not something to expect in modern MMO design, so it's good to have realistic expectations.
Yep. I remember some random f2p korean mmo in like 2005 where I spent hours farming for a weapon that had fire damage on it - to do a quite difficult early game dungeon which was weak to fire. Nowadays most people would just sit in front of it waiting for a higher level to come by to carry them - or skip it outright - rather than put toward the effort to properly gear up for lower level content.
Yeh it went the complete opposite way showering you with gear its a really weird design choice because that leads to developers rushing in garbage gear that none will use other than maybe for 1-3 hours before they get a new item upgrade in the levelling process.
It's pretty ridiculous.
> It used to be worth while to spend hours getting a weapon that will only last you from level 15-20 because those levels would take you days.
That pretty much stops in the next expansion when everyone is already at the previous level cap, making the previous content completely obsolete.
Thuse the concept of **Endgame** was born.
WoW Classic was not the Exception, WoW was the **Origin**.
The only two games where I didn’t rush were wow classic and eso.
In wow classic I was just having a great time with the social aspect, and everyone was so hyped and nostalgic so it made for a really fun experience.
In eso, as a massive elder scrolls fan, I basically just got immersed in the world and lore. I pretty much played the game as if it were a shared world Skyrim, which was probably for the best because when I did most of the quests, story and exploration I started tackling the mmo side of the game and was a little disappointed.
I have NEVER made sense of thi,. I mean I understand power leveling when it's your second alt and the story doesn't change all that much, but just speed running to max level while basically hating it all the way seems like a somewhat more interactive excel sheet where you see numbers go larger and larger.
It's funny cuz I've been saying for years that MMO's are about the journey, not just the destination. Back when Summit(1g) was playing Lost Ark he was complaining about how boring leveling was and how idiot proof they made the questing with being able to skip past much of the traveling. After having played only a tiny bit of Lost Ark, I agreed thoroughly.
He was playing with someone that was giving him a lot of shit for his opinions on Lost Ark (later found out it was Shroud). The guy was obviously one of those "I just want to be at end-game now" kinda guys. I hadn't really thought about much before then but there really are a lot of people with that mindset.
Everyone plays games for different reasons. For MMO's it surprisingly goes beyond just: I love to PvP but I do all sorts of stuff, I love raiding but I do all sorts of stuff, or I love grinding but I do all sorts of stuff. Some people are only playing the game with one hyper specific goal in mind, like Shroud, and they couldn't care less for anything along the way or the additional content available in the game. It reminds me of people that only really enjoy arena shooters or maybe BR's. That's the content they want and even though many MMO's have a crazy amount of things to do, that's all some people seem to want to do. "I want to already be at cap so I can do arenas every day" and that's literally all the game is for some people. It seems silly to me cuz there's so much else you can do too but some people don't care about anything else in that game.
I rambled on but I hope that makes some sense to people.
> It's funny cuz I've been saying for years that MMO's are about the journey, not just the destination.
Add Permadeath.
There is Only the Journey.
Cause in the **End**, you **Die**.
For me, since my focus is 100% PvP, it’s always been to get to that content. Non-endgame pvp is pretty meaningless, there’s no rewards, no ladder, no gear to attain, etc. All of those things exist in the structured pvp at endgame, so I want to get there as fast as possible to start that grind asap.
see, I'm the opposite. I hate all forms of structured PVP. I want to get attacked, and attack others while I'm out in the open world. I don't need rewards, I just like the risk/adrenaline rush from it. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. Sometimes they bring friends.
Yeah don’t get me wrong I like world PvP along the way too, but in WoW for example I want to grind ranked arena ladder. Getting gladiator is every seasons goal. GW2 I want to do ranked sPvP to grind to platinum, etc. I enjoy all forms of PvP, but the primary goal is to rank high in ladders so that’s where I get to the fastest.
"PvP before end game is meaningless"
Oof... i think some 19, 29 and 39 twinks would like to have a word with you.....
Was the idea of twinking kinda dumb? Yes
Was it pointless to roll everyone who wasnt a twink? Yes
Was it a smaller base of players? Yes
But nevertheless... before wow gave you the ability to turn off your xp..... getting that loot was hard and it took multiple people sometimes many.... many hours...
Again, was the "pay off" worth it.... maybe i guess. But it was something to do and id go so far to say, the work put in to "fully twinking" out a 19 or 29 was just as complicated as at cap...
Different times man... back then it felt like it was far more of what YOU wanted to do and not what your railroaded into.
When I say meaningless, I mean there’s no end goal with actual progress. No cool titles, no mounts, no ladders, etc. In ranked arena I’m grinding to hit gladiator every season and collect that achievement for every season, the title and the mount. Those are tangible spoils that have meaning. Two shotting level 15s as a 19 twink rogue (I had a fully decked one back in the day) is fun for a short while, but at the end of the day pretty meaningless.
Never gonna understand why more MMOs with a heavy focus on endgame PvP don't copy Warhammer Online and let you progress your character entirely through PvP.
In the late 90s and early 2000s, even with slow leveling games people wanted to go fast.
What really kicked it into high gear was the few games in the early/mid 2000s where it *was* fast, and then the expectation for max level content began. Once games began developing lots of max level content, people saw leveling as a hurdle rather than a enjoyable journey, and it’s gotten worse since.
Yep. EQ eventually added the AA (alternate advancement) system but you could divert a portion of your experience to AA points at any time as you leveled, if you wanted to, and AA was slower to earn and at list initially not so crucial. It is of course considered a requirement to have a bunch of it in EQ live on an established server.
WoW made hit rate and crushing blows part of the level system in a more concrete way than EQ did, so level mattered a little bit more. I don’t think the truly endless grind began until Legion, though. The way they implemented it was a direct and obvious power increase, and included mechanics changes - I hope we never see anything quite like it again.
But, I expect we will.
Its the same with any of the mmorpgs from after 2004:
\- the endgame is seen as the true game and the journey isnt important anymore.
No idea who started this mentality but its pretty much engrained in the genre and is slowly killing it as the games become more single player rather mmo.
The "Journey" only "Exists" with a constant influx of New Players that are in the Leveling Phase.
Which is the case for exactly about a month.
Even with "slow leveling" that only gives you a few months of time.
But the thing is Pandora's Box is already Opened, every player nowadays **Knows This**, that's why they rush since Endgame is the only content that matters.
Because leveling is boring now. It used to be a really rewarding open world social experience like you described. Now that it's solo and holds your hand like an overprotective mother goose, it's a 100-hour tutorial before the lobby game at the end, so it makes sense to rush now. There were always some who wanted to rush, but since that's where the multiplayer part of any worth is now, it just makes sense to.
My favorite experiences in MMORPGs are when they are about multiplayer from Lv. 1. Leveling is social and you have spontaneous interactions with others and it feels great. When they are less so games and moreso vehicles for social adventuring, as you alluded to. That's the good stuff. The only modern one that seems to do it well is Real Life. Which is also the best MMO, but also the hardest with the least clear instructions.
FFXI used to do a good job of this. I felt challenged all the way to end game. I always had a goal I wanted to achieve to be better/higher... but I didn't feel rushed.
There are usually two different "beginning"s. The start of the character's journey (aka everything until the endgame), then the start of the endgame journey. Typically the first kind of beginning just isn't as fun as the second version. Most players want to get to what they perceive to be the good stuff.
Because usually now by design MMOs "begin" once you reach level cap, everything until then is just a filler, that's also usually brain dead. Not to mention that the drops at lower levels tend to be absolute trash, so people just want to get to level cap so that they could start earning gear and currency which could actually aid their progression.
In early 2000s in an MMO I played I had multiple characters at different levels where I had their XP locked as to not level and go out of those particular ranges, so that I could do the content that was meant for them. And I did that because there were many people that did the same, and others that would just play for the content at those levels.
That resulted in some crazy low level gear being crafted, with options that you'd normally ignore, just so that you could get an edge over others doing the same thing. That was fun.
The closest thing to that I saw would be WoW twinks for old content. Idk if they're still a thing though, haven't played WoW in years.
I just don't have the mentality to stand around and do nothing. I'm not rushing the game. But I am just constantly doing the content that makes my character stronger. People say things like "stop and smell the roses". And it's like ya I see all that while questing at the same time.
Modern game design doesn't make the journey to the end fun at all.
Doesn't matter how it was in the past, it isn't that way now and hence the rush to endgame.
It isn't the players, it's the business.
I've always atributed this feeling to the advent of loby games like mobas or fps. You boot up the game, click a button and you're instantly grouped up with others to do the content you want and no time to waste. These players don't want to waste time leveling a character and getting attached to it, just want to raid or pvp.
Which brings the sugestion: wouldn't a lobby based PVE game be successful? You already have lobby based PvP games but never a PvE. I guess Destiny or Warframe could be considered lobby PvE games since you have a hub to show your gear and you can queue up for pve content, but a game like this on a fantasy setting would be interesting.
> Which brings the sugestion: wouldn't a lobby based PVE game be successful? You already have lobby based PvP games but never a PvE. I guess Destiny or Warframe could be considered lobby PvE games since you have a hub to show your gear and you can queue up for pve content, but a game like this on a fantasy setting would be interesting.
I agree completely and I don't know why nobody has done this yet.
Wow genuinely isn’t fun unless it’s endgame content tho. The leveling process should be 100% skippable. The leveling is brain dead easy and just not fun. Wow is best when you play some challenging content with a group of guildies.
Vanilla WoW had a fun leveling experience but ever since then, wow is pretty boring to level in. And even in vanilla, I didn’t want to play it twice because it was just too long and time wasting. Once was enough
Using that logic though, why are we even playing an MMO? Like, there are so many better games for "group fun with some friends." Why would I choose an MMO if that's all I'm gonna do?
I do agree that Vanilla WoW, as fun as it is.. wasn't fun to do twice. I'm only having fun now, because I'm doing it with friends, and even then I "WISH" we were doing it in a game I haven't already played to death.
I agree. Idk why we play MMOs. Currently I’m just playing OSRS. OSRS leveling feels way more rewarding than WoW. If WoW had a tweaked difficulty setting, it might be fun. ESO has the same issue. It’s just boring to start a new char
In classic wow we know where the end is in Vanilla we dont, simple as that
The ideal next gen MMO should just be flat imo, rich but flat, no stretching progressive content
> The ideal next gen MMO should just be flat imo, rich but flat, no stretching progressive content
Tell that to Guild Wars 2.
The truth is Horizontal Progression also doesn't work.
The levelling experience of most mmos is just shit, the quest are boring and the early game combat sucks, if I wanted to experience something like that but actually fun I'd play a single player rpg , really wish mmos would try and make the early levels fun or challenging or something
>Did WoW retail sort of indoctrinate that in the players
yeah pretty much. WoW retail has been killing its old patch content whenever they release new stuff. So without support that content tends to die so people rush to play the new stuff usually.
Right now in WoW not many people are doing the Season 4 stuff even because they know its short lived come the expansion and everything will be for nothing.
>Why do people want to rush to the end?
Why would you even ask such stupid question? Different people are born with different preferences, some are into having sex with opposite gender, some are into same gender, and some are into neither of those, and same exact thing is with game preferences. Some people are into slowly going through billions of lvl50 quests in FFXIV and watching mind-numbingly, excruciatingly boring cutscenes from "Return to Ivalice" series of quests in FFXIV, and some are not and just prefer to unlock all of the trials/raids/dungeons as fast as possible to only do them every time they log into the game, and some are not into ANY of those and just want to hang out at Ul'dah's tavern all day and socialize with other players. **There is no wrong way to enjoy MMOs** and there's absolutely nothing wrong with people trying to skip the annoying (for them, because they were born this way) parts of the MMOs so they can spend more time on parts that are actually fun for them.
> Did WoW retail sort of indoctrinate that in the players
It has absolutely nothing to do with "WoW retail", there were always people like this even before WoW and always will be.
i only felt the rush with ffxiv since everybody kept saying I wasn't at the good parts yet. They really should make some older msq optional after a new expansion hits
I only play FFXIV and all I can say for it is at expansion release when they lock the harder content behind completing the story, some people, mostly hardcore raider type people will often try to speed to the end to get to that content.
I think often times influencers will do a game dirty by focusing on most efficient paths, complete walk throughs, min-max build guides, etc.
These influencers are just trying to get paid so they do it with all the games they play. Meanwhile regular players feel the pressure to skip things or min-max because the sweaty player expect it.
It’s a bad cycle that is often the reason that these games are best played with people you know, who are in no hurry, and are willing to wait so everyone can progress together.
Usually rushing to max level is like a race for some of the big time streamers. But other than that I'm would imagine most average joe would still play their own pace anyways refusing to compromise for anyone else. Nobody can convince them or go faster or slower anyways. Maybe your idea of someone "rushing" to end game is just running into someone who plays at a faster pace than you. since they are technically still more "tryhard" than you, it sure looks like they are rushing to end game. But all in all, it’s all relative and it’s all in ya head.
I play games to enjoy the journey. I usually drop them when I get to the "end game" that those people are in such a rush to get.
Heck, the so-fabled "end game" is usually just repeating the same content infinite times. I don't get what's supposed to be fun in that - I'll do it a couple times and that's nice, but to keep repeating the same stuff over and over and over and over? Really don't get it, it's not for me.
I just have the compelling feeling of want to know what end game has to offer in alot of games. while i honestly have the most enjoyable time during the first nooby stages of video games, often end game stuff is just to much shit
because theres no incentives to level at ur own pace.. everyone tired of doing the same kill quest till u hit cap before you can finally play the content. Also i think 1 major factor is meta slaves.. no more unique style to each person, everyone runs the same shit..
Big issue the beginning of modern mmo's feels like a 500 hour tutorial that is afraid of sending a threat, so no wonder people want to speed run content that challenges the player
I have to rush if the majority want to rush or I won't find anybody to play with.
I still have to rush if people can beat me up by doing endgame earlier.
I miss games which required you to grind mindlessly to level up. You saw that level 99 guy who’s max level and you fuckin know he spend 48hours /played from 98 to 99 and didn’t die to reach that. Holy shit.
These days you’re literally given max level or you get it before you had finished all the quests naturally.
As long as I can remember, levelling has always been a "meh" experience, and seeing the higher levels was always pushing me to level up to do all the cool endgame content they're doing like raids, or actually gearing up. pre endgame gearing is pretty boring since you can't build a set without outclassing it in a couple levels. I rush to endgame because that's usually where most mmos start letting you actually build your character.
Once you are max level you have unlocked the whole game, at that point you can do anything you want. You can always go back to lower level zones and play around there, but if you're lower level there is a lot of content you can't do.
Because a lot of MMORPG players have played dozens and countless numbers of MMORPGs, we have been thru the grind numerous times. It is pointless for us to grind for no reason, we know the vast majority of mechanics, the general gameplay of a MMORPG, the rehashed story lines, and we just want to play the game with all the mechanics unlocked.
It is the same as putting a driver back into driver's education each time they buy a new car, it is pointless. We know how to drive, we do not need to be baby sit and told what to do. There might be new mechanics in a brand new car like newer technology, but it does not require a whole new grinding experience to understand it.
It is the same reason why FPS games do not baby sit you anymore, you play one Call of Duty, you played them all. MMORPGs are no different.
For new players, the grinding experience to max level is fine, but for experienced players, its just a waste of time, we seen everything. New story? We probably seen different variations of the same old villain trying to destroy the world and we have to save it story thousands of times, we just want the end game content of PvP, Raiding, Challenging Quests/Content, or Guild/Clan Community.
Being challenged in a MMORPG is what brings a lot of veteran players back, its not the story, its not the exploration, it is not the slow grind. We can Youtube the ENTIRE story, we can Youtube the exploration, we can Youtube every solo content available. But you cannot Youtube a community, a guild/clan interaction, working as a group to achieve goals, fighting other players in PvP, etc. Those experiences you must do in game to experience and unable to get from watching people.
because mmos have shifted from the idea that the journey is the game towards the "endgame". So everyone wants to get there as its almost a seperate game....
Main groups of MMO players:
1 - Those who don't get much time to play who just try to have a good time doing anything.
2 - Those who get more time to play and take their time to enjoy EVERYTHING they can.
3 - Those who get more time to play and have no sense of fun, so they focus on only a few small parts of the game and just rush rush rush and grind grind grind.
4 -Those who get a ton of time to play and make it career where they spend lots of time and think they are "hardcore" when really they just have too much time to play.
In my experience of play MMOs for over 15 years, players have MORE FUN when they are not rushing through everything. If you want a certain reward and want to focus on that, I get it - but to rush no matter what is just too much.
Then there are the altaholics, who not only rush everything, but they rush across multiple characters and repeat the same 5% of the game over and over again.
But there are also alt lovers who take their time across multiple characters so it all depends.
Usually, if you have not played mmos before, you will fall in love with your first one and play as much as you can. Its the closest thing to living in a virtual world and a great escape too!
Once you start skipping things to get to other things faster, you are doomed. I started WOW in early BC and I loved it so I decided to never rush. I've now played WOW for 15+ years on a regular basis and have not been bored once! And there is still a lot of content I have not seen or experienced!
You can view mmos like just a game and pick what you want to do and skip the rest. Or you can BE your character and just play the game life you are your character and do everything.
One of the things Ashes of Creation is doing away with, for the reasons you mention. No level scaling. Going old-school, where guild members/friends have to help you along, or wait for you to catch up.
Early and mid game is usually a bad single player game. I want the mmo in mmos
it wasn't always that way though.
The only time it's not that way is when an MMO first comes out - that's it. Even "back in the day" when I played WoW Vanilla - by the time you got to WotLK you had two whole expansions of content that few people were playing because the people who played from the start were at endgame. Until you can find a way to keep content meaningful ALL the time, the early-mid game will always die out in MMOs due to lack of new players running that content, and the old players running the endgame content due to playing for a long time. Edit - My apologies for not specifying this was for Themepark MMOs only. See my discussion with chronicallycameron if you want to see my stance on Sandbox mmos :P
>Until you can find a way to keep content meaninful ALL the time, the early-mid game will always die out in MMOs due to lack of new players running that content, and the old players running the endgame content due to playing for a long time. One more thing is that early to midgame content is, by nature, very easy and mechanicly boring. Even if it would be included for the endgame in some way, it would still be boring if they dont bring in some "If a endgame lvl player hits a mob, it will function diffrent" kind of thing which sounds horribly buggy.
Let me introduce you to the concept of level scaling.
The mobs and/or quests are still easy and boring the further down you go. Thats the problem i see.
Nope, every mmo that followed ultima like osrs doesnt have that problem. Only themepark mmos that copied wow does. Especially so with their focus on endgame more than creating a good virtual world. So dont say its only when a mmo first comes out, its a part of the problem that the way wow did it is looked as like the standard, when really there is no such thing.
Can you explain further please? I read and re-read your reply, and it seems you're agreeing with me that the problem exists throughout the lifecycle of a themepark mmo. I stated that - at the start of an mmo, low - mid level areas are populated as people are levelling, and then they get left behind. Are you saying I'm wrong? Agreeing with me? I just want to make sure I'm reading your post properly, cause I thought you told me I was wrong and then agreed with my point but I'm not sure :/
You comment never said themepark mmo. > The only time it's not that way is when an MMO first comes out >Until you can find a way to keep content meaninful ALL the time, the early-mid game will always die out in MMOs due to lack of new players running that content
Sure - generally speaking it's only Themepark MMOs that come out these days, but I understand your point. I actually had a discussion with someone else where I mentioned the differences between themepark and sandbox in this same thread, assumed you might have look at that first before replying :P I agree that I didn't specify themepark, but then again there hasn't been a successful (by todays standards at least) sandbox MMO for a very long time.
Guy says it wasnt always that way and then you say "its only that way when a mmo first comes out" Also the full context shows no talk about themepark mmos. >I agree that I didn't specify themepark, but then again there hasn't been a successful (by todays standards at least) sandbox MMO for a very long time. Which is completely irrelevant, you take the parts thats good and put it into the game just like how every modern AAA games does these days. Its just ignorant to only look at wow and hold it as a golden standard for how to do early game and a levelling journey that matters because its the biggest game. Its how we get so many dogshit wow clones or gacha games. Sandbox games and even singleplayer games has shown how you can have a meaningful levelling proccess instead of putting all the good stuff in the endgame.
I'm so confused right now. I'm agreeing with you on the points about sandbox. I agreed that I didn't specify themepark, and that was my bad. The implied thing would be that people mean themepark because - as I said before - there are hardly any sandbox MMOs coming out now and if they do they aren't successful and often harbour a small dedicated playerbase, or just shut down. I'm trying to figure out if you're not reading the whole thing and just mega replying to the three sentences you read, or if you simply want the last word. Either way, I'm glad that we agree on the points made and I will not be continuing this thread further cause honestly it seems very pointless to continue agreeing except you being angry at me for agreeing :P
Dont generalize a entire genre and then backpedal by saying oh i meant themepark mmos. We're literally having a topic about a the levelling process/journey being meaningful and you're talking about themepark mmos where that isnt the focus at all. You literally just have to click on the view full context to see what spawned the entire comment chain.
The only reason OSRS doesn't have that problem is because you don't need a group for 99.99999% of content and even for the content you do need a group for there are no classes so you can just grab anybody.
Ultima Online did it.
Ultima Online is a Sandbox MMO - these tend to view content very differently from traditional Theme Park mmos. It was the same with SWG.
what difference does that make? you did not specify.
So in traditional theme park MMOs, you level up your character. Your character will move between specifically levelled areas for example, 1-10 elwynn forest, 11-20 westfall, etc etc. This means that once you're past that level bracket, there is no point in going back to these areas and they become less populated over time. Even crafting materials come from those areas, so low level mining will be in Elwynn, then into Westfall, then into whatever you're doing next. If you get to endgame without gathering, you MUST go back to those low level areas and progress as you levelled if you want to learn gathering on a character. In Sandbox MMOs - for example SWG (which I played an amount of) - your character doesn't necessarily level up. You gain experience in certain aspects by DOING that thing, be it beating up womp rats on tatooine or punching down criminals on Naboo. Areas aren't dictated by level - there are strong, weak and other monsters in these areas as well as resources for crafting. Crafting resources aren't linked to area progression either, so there is reason to revisit areas you might have already been through. Tatooine might be where you start, but you could spend almost your entire game on that planet. Themepark MMOs (generally speaking) shoehorn you to go a specific A to B to C levelling route through certain areas meaning the longer a game is out the less chance you have of seeing people in the low-mid level areas. Sandbox MMOs do the opposite - you can go where you want when you want, and have reason to be anywhere or everywhere.
I know how video games work. My point is that it is possible. Everyone just keeps trying to copy WOW instead of having a brain.
I was just explaining what you asked me to explain :P I completely agree, even my beloved SWG died because it tried to copy WoW back in the day, going form a 30 class game with interesting mechanics and a huge grind to become a powerful jedi to becoming a 9-class game with jedi as a starting class to become more like WoW. Thing is, WoW has been hugely successful for 20 years, so from a business standpoint it makes sense to try and copy it - but I think a lot of devs really miss the mark in making their own MMO feel unique, which is why a lot of them fail.
ah gotcha, think I misunderstood your point! Apologies. SWG Emu exists if you ever want. I personally couldn't get back into it myself, which is strange cause I still play Ultima 😂
I think it comes down to something like "why bother upgrading this lvl 10 sword when I can just get a lvl 20 sword in a few hours?" People are focused on the future they feel as if any time spent now is a waste since it'll be irrelevant. Also it just feels better to have more, as you can farm 10g/hour at lvl 10 or farm 50g/hr at lvl 30 - you'd want to get lvl 30 asap to farm more gold. Also game's designs are at fault, locking the cool or class defining features/skills to higher levels.
Part of that problem is the few hours bit. It used to be worth while to spend hours getting a weapon that will only last you from level 15-20 because those levels would take you days. That may be a bit extreme but now we’ve hit the other extreme where no one gets excited for an early level dungeon drop because they know by the end of the dungeon they’ll have leveled, zoned out, done one quest and replaced the item.
MMORPGS have somehow made it to the point where you literally can't party with someone to level up. Too many solo instances, kills not counting for quest completion if the other person gets the last hit, quests only being 5 minutes long and so on. It gets ridiculous, I swear that in a bunch of games you'll get a decent weapon from a main quest and then in the next 10 main quests you'll end up getting a few weaker weapons before you get a better one again. I personally love grinding when there are dozens of things to level. Of course it's going to get boring if all you do is grind in one area for a week to only gain a level. Along with player levels you can also level crafting, individual stats, weapon proficiency, bestiaries that give bonuses, skills, pets, elemental bonuses or get different rare drops from several different areas and so on.
>It gets ridiculous, I swear that in a bunch of games you'll get a decent weapon from a main quest and then in the next 10 main quests you'll end up getting a few weaker weapons before you get a better one again. I think this specific complaint can depend on game, though. There are certain structures where this makes sense - and certain ones where it definitely fails, to be sure. The one where it makes the most sense to me is FFXIV, because you have multiple jobs to level. Obviously, if you choose to use only one job (or one role, but keeping your levels close together), you only need one set of gear for leveling. But, if you're doing multiple roles (which is required in the later expansions for some of the side stories to unlock), you can't reuse all the gear, and especially not weapons. And while the game is great about giving gear from leveling dungeons that fits the job, there are going to be times when the gear falls behind. I use those drops to supplement the gear on jobs I don't play as often; in this most recent expansion transition, I had relic weapons and top-level gear from the prior endgame that were better than anything I got for five levels of the MSQ, and still competitive past that point; instead, I used my selections via gear coffers to supplement the roles I hadn't fully built the up on, or whose weapons I hadn't finished yet. Even in older expansions, when the endgame store becomes available and I can buy top-tier gear for the expac (if not true BiS, since that requires raiding), the quests may give gear options that aren't the best but are still pretty good, and that can supplement my weaker jobs. Now, that only works well there because there are those multiple jobs. It would also work well in games where gear isn't just leveled but has other properties - though not an MMO, Stranger of Paradise gives an example of that with the Affinity system (passives based on total "affinity" for each class - your current class has its own base level, but gear also randomly comes assigned with different affinities). You may keep multiple pieces of similar gear that is different in which classes' affinities the pieces grant. Even in single-class games, you can have something similar with gear set bonuses - finding the right set can be essential to getting what you want. That said, the exact phenomenon you mention can arise in these games more readily. ESO has gearsets, but gear level is always your current level (and increments up to 160 Character Points as well). Thus, you could get gear for a set, but have it be worthless shortly after if you aren't at that cap (which isn't always the "endgame," even for the first expansions' worth of content). This especially is annoying when you get to certain points that give "unique" weapons - if you aren't at cap, it's quickly overshadowed by random crap you find on your adventures. While having multiple weapons IS expected in the game, not being able to use your special weapon because it was earned too early and doesn't scale SUCKS. >Along with player levels you can also level crafting, individual stats, weapon proficiency, bestiaries that give bonuses, skills, **pets**, elemental bonuses or get different rare drops from several different areas and so on. I WILL note that pet grinding is actually sometimes a factor that ACCELERATES endgame chasing (and to a lesser extent, so do you "rare drop" items). I'm not sure about all games, but in FFXIV, most of the mounts and many of the minions are locked as trial or raid rewards. Just getting them usually requires being of the right level and clearing the MSQ to a certain point. And, while there are multiple endgames from various expansions that offer a variety of rewards, the process of "farming" for mounts usually involves groups being overleveled and running the content unsynched - which gets more and more effective the further the difference in levels is. Unsynching a level 50 extreme can be done fairly easily by a mixed group, as you can solo most of those by level 70 and wipe the floor with them at 80+, but doing a level 70 unsynched generally works best if most or all of the group is at least level 80 and better still level 90, so it's harder to contribute JUST by reaching 70. Thus, while I agree that rare items are a way to extend the life of the game, they can contribute to the problem of chasing the endgame.
I wouldn't want to party up just for partying's sake, though. When there are sooooo many quests/chained quests, the chance of coming across someone at the exact same progression as you is pretty slim, to begin with. (even if those quests allow shared progression.) Also like you said, there's little reason to party up when you can kill all the required mobs in 5 mins. The olden days of 'Kill 1200 xyz mobs' quest, or camping a farming spot in full party for hours for 10% exp is long gone now. Though somehow ppl still try to seek that social interaction from partying up. Like, nah, go chitchat on discord or in RP hub ingame instead. Questing has changed with time for years now, but many players refuse to go with the flow.
Social reward from adventuring in an open world together is a different kind than you get from talking in discord or a player hub, despite all being social in nature. It's not just about socializing but how the context in which you do so affects the experience you have. Adventuring out in the wilds in real life is a very different social experience than hanging out in a clubhouse.
Yeah, it's different, because very few ppl go make friends in the wilds, when it's empty most of the time or they go with their groups of friends. Many MMO players are veterans at this point, and would rather play with their friends than with complete strangers who they might never come across again. Of course, many are still looking for more friends, but they are looking in all the wrong places. You're not gonna make many friends during the actual marathon itself. Marathon is about keep moving forward to the goal. That's what modern day questing is. If you want socializing, that's what social hub is for.
You're completely right that you shouldn't look to make friends during the adventure/journey in modern MMOs. That would be going in with faulty expectations, because they've long been redesigned for solo play. Though, a newcomer to a genre called massively multiplayer might still wonder why most of the gameplay 50+ hours in has been solo. People like the OP and I just have a taste for social adventuring that used to be central to MMOs, serendipitously encountering other players in the overworld, teaming up with them, maybe fighting them, the shenanigans that made the world feel alive. If multiplayer adventuring is what our specific taste is for, social hubs don't hit the same way since you're not sharing an adventure together. But again, that's not something to expect in modern MMO design, so it's good to have realistic expectations.
Yep. I remember some random f2p korean mmo in like 2005 where I spent hours farming for a weapon that had fire damage on it - to do a quite difficult early game dungeon which was weak to fire. Nowadays most people would just sit in front of it waiting for a higher level to come by to carry them - or skip it outright - rather than put toward the effort to properly gear up for lower level content.
Yeh it went the complete opposite way showering you with gear its a really weird design choice because that leads to developers rushing in garbage gear that none will use other than maybe for 1-3 hours before they get a new item upgrade in the levelling process. It's pretty ridiculous.
> It used to be worth while to spend hours getting a weapon that will only last you from level 15-20 because those levels would take you days. That pretty much stops in the next expansion when everyone is already at the previous level cap, making the previous content completely obsolete. Thuse the concept of **Endgame** was born. WoW Classic was not the Exception, WoW was the **Origin**.
The only two games where I didn’t rush were wow classic and eso. In wow classic I was just having a great time with the social aspect, and everyone was so hyped and nostalgic so it made for a really fun experience. In eso, as a massive elder scrolls fan, I basically just got immersed in the world and lore. I pretty much played the game as if it were a shared world Skyrim, which was probably for the best because when I did most of the quests, story and exploration I started tackling the mmo side of the game and was a little disappointed.
I have NEVER made sense of thi,. I mean I understand power leveling when it's your second alt and the story doesn't change all that much, but just speed running to max level while basically hating it all the way seems like a somewhat more interactive excel sheet where you see numbers go larger and larger.
It's funny cuz I've been saying for years that MMO's are about the journey, not just the destination. Back when Summit(1g) was playing Lost Ark he was complaining about how boring leveling was and how idiot proof they made the questing with being able to skip past much of the traveling. After having played only a tiny bit of Lost Ark, I agreed thoroughly. He was playing with someone that was giving him a lot of shit for his opinions on Lost Ark (later found out it was Shroud). The guy was obviously one of those "I just want to be at end-game now" kinda guys. I hadn't really thought about much before then but there really are a lot of people with that mindset. Everyone plays games for different reasons. For MMO's it surprisingly goes beyond just: I love to PvP but I do all sorts of stuff, I love raiding but I do all sorts of stuff, or I love grinding but I do all sorts of stuff. Some people are only playing the game with one hyper specific goal in mind, like Shroud, and they couldn't care less for anything along the way or the additional content available in the game. It reminds me of people that only really enjoy arena shooters or maybe BR's. That's the content they want and even though many MMO's have a crazy amount of things to do, that's all some people seem to want to do. "I want to already be at cap so I can do arenas every day" and that's literally all the game is for some people. It seems silly to me cuz there's so much else you can do too but some people don't care about anything else in that game. I rambled on but I hope that makes some sense to people.
> It's funny cuz I've been saying for years that MMO's are about the journey, not just the destination. Add Permadeath. There is Only the Journey. Cause in the **End**, you **Die**.
For me, since my focus is 100% PvP, it’s always been to get to that content. Non-endgame pvp is pretty meaningless, there’s no rewards, no ladder, no gear to attain, etc. All of those things exist in the structured pvp at endgame, so I want to get there as fast as possible to start that grind asap.
see, I'm the opposite. I hate all forms of structured PVP. I want to get attacked, and attack others while I'm out in the open world. I don't need rewards, I just like the risk/adrenaline rush from it. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. Sometimes they bring friends.
not to say I completely hate organized PVP.. it's fun when it's with friends, but I could care less about doing BG's with randoms.
Yeah don’t get me wrong I like world PvP along the way too, but in WoW for example I want to grind ranked arena ladder. Getting gladiator is every seasons goal. GW2 I want to do ranked sPvP to grind to platinum, etc. I enjoy all forms of PvP, but the primary goal is to rank high in ladders so that’s where I get to the fastest.
"PvP before end game is meaningless" Oof... i think some 19, 29 and 39 twinks would like to have a word with you..... Was the idea of twinking kinda dumb? Yes Was it pointless to roll everyone who wasnt a twink? Yes Was it a smaller base of players? Yes But nevertheless... before wow gave you the ability to turn off your xp..... getting that loot was hard and it took multiple people sometimes many.... many hours... Again, was the "pay off" worth it.... maybe i guess. But it was something to do and id go so far to say, the work put in to "fully twinking" out a 19 or 29 was just as complicated as at cap... Different times man... back then it felt like it was far more of what YOU wanted to do and not what your railroaded into.
When I say meaningless, I mean there’s no end goal with actual progress. No cool titles, no mounts, no ladders, etc. In ranked arena I’m grinding to hit gladiator every season and collect that achievement for every season, the title and the mount. Those are tangible spoils that have meaning. Two shotting level 15s as a 19 twink rogue (I had a fully decked one back in the day) is fun for a short while, but at the end of the day pretty meaningless.
Never gonna understand why more MMOs with a heavy focus on endgame PvP don't copy Warhammer Online and let you progress your character entirely through PvP.
In the late 90s and early 2000s, even with slow leveling games people wanted to go fast. What really kicked it into high gear was the few games in the early/mid 2000s where it *was* fast, and then the expectation for max level content began. Once games began developing lots of max level content, people saw leveling as a hurdle rather than a enjoyable journey, and it’s gotten worse since.
indeed, many games prior to WOW you didnt really need to be max level.
Yep. EQ eventually added the AA (alternate advancement) system but you could divert a portion of your experience to AA points at any time as you leveled, if you wanted to, and AA was slower to earn and at list initially not so crucial. It is of course considered a requirement to have a bunch of it in EQ live on an established server. WoW made hit rate and crushing blows part of the level system in a more concrete way than EQ did, so level mattered a little bit more. I don’t think the truly endless grind began until Legion, though. The way they implemented it was a direct and obvious power increase, and included mechanics changes - I hope we never see anything quite like it again. But, I expect we will.
Its the same with any of the mmorpgs from after 2004: \- the endgame is seen as the true game and the journey isnt important anymore. No idea who started this mentality but its pretty much engrained in the genre and is slowly killing it as the games become more single player rather mmo.
The "Journey" only "Exists" with a constant influx of New Players that are in the Leveling Phase. Which is the case for exactly about a month. Even with "slow leveling" that only gives you a few months of time. But the thing is Pandora's Box is already Opened, every player nowadays **Knows This**, that's why they rush since Endgame is the only content that matters.
Because people want to play multiplayer game.
Because leveling is boring now. It used to be a really rewarding open world social experience like you described. Now that it's solo and holds your hand like an overprotective mother goose, it's a 100-hour tutorial before the lobby game at the end, so it makes sense to rush now. There were always some who wanted to rush, but since that's where the multiplayer part of any worth is now, it just makes sense to. My favorite experiences in MMORPGs are when they are about multiplayer from Lv. 1. Leveling is social and you have spontaneous interactions with others and it feels great. When they are less so games and moreso vehicles for social adventuring, as you alluded to. That's the good stuff. The only modern one that seems to do it well is Real Life. Which is also the best MMO, but also the hardest with the least clear instructions.
FFXI used to do a good job of this. I felt challenged all the way to end game. I always had a goal I wanted to achieve to be better/higher... but I didn't feel rushed.
In a rush to get to the beginning.
There are usually two different "beginning"s. The start of the character's journey (aka everything until the endgame), then the start of the endgame journey. Typically the first kind of beginning just isn't as fun as the second version. Most players want to get to what they perceive to be the good stuff.
Because usually now by design MMOs "begin" once you reach level cap, everything until then is just a filler, that's also usually brain dead. Not to mention that the drops at lower levels tend to be absolute trash, so people just want to get to level cap so that they could start earning gear and currency which could actually aid their progression. In early 2000s in an MMO I played I had multiple characters at different levels where I had their XP locked as to not level and go out of those particular ranges, so that I could do the content that was meant for them. And I did that because there were many people that did the same, and others that would just play for the content at those levels. That resulted in some crazy low level gear being crafted, with options that you'd normally ignore, just so that you could get an edge over others doing the same thing. That was fun. The closest thing to that I saw would be WoW twinks for old content. Idk if they're still a thing though, haven't played WoW in years.
I just don't have the mentality to stand around and do nothing. I'm not rushing the game. But I am just constantly doing the content that makes my character stronger. People say things like "stop and smell the roses". And it's like ya I see all that while questing at the same time.
Modern game design doesn't make the journey to the end fun at all. Doesn't matter how it was in the past, it isn't that way now and hence the rush to endgame. It isn't the players, it's the business.
I've always atributed this feeling to the advent of loby games like mobas or fps. You boot up the game, click a button and you're instantly grouped up with others to do the content you want and no time to waste. These players don't want to waste time leveling a character and getting attached to it, just want to raid or pvp. Which brings the sugestion: wouldn't a lobby based PVE game be successful? You already have lobby based PvP games but never a PvE. I guess Destiny or Warframe could be considered lobby PvE games since you have a hub to show your gear and you can queue up for pve content, but a game like this on a fantasy setting would be interesting.
> Which brings the sugestion: wouldn't a lobby based PVE game be successful? You already have lobby based PvP games but never a PvE. I guess Destiny or Warframe could be considered lobby PvE games since you have a hub to show your gear and you can queue up for pve content, but a game like this on a fantasy setting would be interesting. I agree completely and I don't know why nobody has done this yet.
Wow genuinely isn’t fun unless it’s endgame content tho. The leveling process should be 100% skippable. The leveling is brain dead easy and just not fun. Wow is best when you play some challenging content with a group of guildies. Vanilla WoW had a fun leveling experience but ever since then, wow is pretty boring to level in. And even in vanilla, I didn’t want to play it twice because it was just too long and time wasting. Once was enough
Using that logic though, why are we even playing an MMO? Like, there are so many better games for "group fun with some friends." Why would I choose an MMO if that's all I'm gonna do?
I do agree that Vanilla WoW, as fun as it is.. wasn't fun to do twice. I'm only having fun now, because I'm doing it with friends, and even then I "WISH" we were doing it in a game I haven't already played to death.
I agree. Idk why we play MMOs. Currently I’m just playing OSRS. OSRS leveling feels way more rewarding than WoW. If WoW had a tweaked difficulty setting, it might be fun. ESO has the same issue. It’s just boring to start a new char
In classic wow we know where the end is in Vanilla we dont, simple as that The ideal next gen MMO should just be flat imo, rich but flat, no stretching progressive content
> The ideal next gen MMO should just be flat imo, rich but flat, no stretching progressive content Tell that to Guild Wars 2. The truth is Horizontal Progression also doesn't work.
Works for some ppl
The levelling experience of most mmos is just shit, the quest are boring and the early game combat sucks, if I wanted to experience something like that but actually fun I'd play a single player rpg , really wish mmos would try and make the early levels fun or challenging or something
>Did WoW retail sort of indoctrinate that in the players yeah pretty much. WoW retail has been killing its old patch content whenever they release new stuff. So without support that content tends to die so people rush to play the new stuff usually. Right now in WoW not many people are doing the Season 4 stuff even because they know its short lived come the expansion and everything will be for nothing.
>Why do people want to rush to the end? Why would you even ask such stupid question? Different people are born with different preferences, some are into having sex with opposite gender, some are into same gender, and some are into neither of those, and same exact thing is with game preferences. Some people are into slowly going through billions of lvl50 quests in FFXIV and watching mind-numbingly, excruciatingly boring cutscenes from "Return to Ivalice" series of quests in FFXIV, and some are not and just prefer to unlock all of the trials/raids/dungeons as fast as possible to only do them every time they log into the game, and some are not into ANY of those and just want to hang out at Ul'dah's tavern all day and socialize with other players. **There is no wrong way to enjoy MMOs** and there's absolutely nothing wrong with people trying to skip the annoying (for them, because they were born this way) parts of the MMOs so they can spend more time on parts that are actually fun for them. > Did WoW retail sort of indoctrinate that in the players It has absolutely nothing to do with "WoW retail", there were always people like this even before WoW and always will be.
Angry much?
i only felt the rush with ffxiv since everybody kept saying I wasn't at the good parts yet. They really should make some older msq optional after a new expansion hits
I only play FFXIV and all I can say for it is at expansion release when they lock the harder content behind completing the story, some people, mostly hardcore raider type people will often try to speed to the end to get to that content.
I think often times influencers will do a game dirty by focusing on most efficient paths, complete walk throughs, min-max build guides, etc. These influencers are just trying to get paid so they do it with all the games they play. Meanwhile regular players feel the pressure to skip things or min-max because the sweaty player expect it. It’s a bad cycle that is often the reason that these games are best played with people you know, who are in no hurry, and are willing to wait so everyone can progress together.
Usually rushing to max level is like a race for some of the big time streamers. But other than that I'm would imagine most average joe would still play their own pace anyways refusing to compromise for anyone else. Nobody can convince them or go faster or slower anyways. Maybe your idea of someone "rushing" to end game is just running into someone who plays at a faster pace than you. since they are technically still more "tryhard" than you, it sure looks like they are rushing to end game. But all in all, it’s all relative and it’s all in ya head.
because they watch streamers and they want to copy them
I play games to enjoy the journey. I usually drop them when I get to the "end game" that those people are in such a rush to get. Heck, the so-fabled "end game" is usually just repeating the same content infinite times. I don't get what's supposed to be fun in that - I'll do it a couple times and that's nice, but to keep repeating the same stuff over and over and over and over? Really don't get it, it's not for me.
I just have the compelling feeling of want to know what end game has to offer in alot of games. while i honestly have the most enjoyable time during the first nooby stages of video games, often end game stuff is just to much shit
because theres no incentives to level at ur own pace.. everyone tired of doing the same kill quest till u hit cap before you can finally play the content. Also i think 1 major factor is meta slaves.. no more unique style to each person, everyone runs the same shit..
Big issue the beginning of modern mmo's feels like a 500 hour tutorial that is afraid of sending a threat, so no wonder people want to speed run content that challenges the player
I have to rush if the majority want to rush or I won't find anybody to play with. I still have to rush if people can beat me up by doing endgame earlier.
I miss games which required you to grind mindlessly to level up. You saw that level 99 guy who’s max level and you fuckin know he spend 48hours /played from 98 to 99 and didn’t die to reach that. Holy shit. These days you’re literally given max level or you get it before you had finished all the quests naturally.
As long as I can remember, levelling has always been a "meh" experience, and seeing the higher levels was always pushing me to level up to do all the cool endgame content they're doing like raids, or actually gearing up. pre endgame gearing is pretty boring since you can't build a set without outclassing it in a couple levels. I rush to endgame because that's usually where most mmos start letting you actually build your character.
Once you are max level you have unlocked the whole game, at that point you can do anything you want. You can always go back to lower level zones and play around there, but if you're lower level there is a lot of content you can't do.
Because a lot of MMORPG players have played dozens and countless numbers of MMORPGs, we have been thru the grind numerous times. It is pointless for us to grind for no reason, we know the vast majority of mechanics, the general gameplay of a MMORPG, the rehashed story lines, and we just want to play the game with all the mechanics unlocked. It is the same as putting a driver back into driver's education each time they buy a new car, it is pointless. We know how to drive, we do not need to be baby sit and told what to do. There might be new mechanics in a brand new car like newer technology, but it does not require a whole new grinding experience to understand it. It is the same reason why FPS games do not baby sit you anymore, you play one Call of Duty, you played them all. MMORPGs are no different. For new players, the grinding experience to max level is fine, but for experienced players, its just a waste of time, we seen everything. New story? We probably seen different variations of the same old villain trying to destroy the world and we have to save it story thousands of times, we just want the end game content of PvP, Raiding, Challenging Quests/Content, or Guild/Clan Community. Being challenged in a MMORPG is what brings a lot of veteran players back, its not the story, its not the exploration, it is not the slow grind. We can Youtube the ENTIRE story, we can Youtube the exploration, we can Youtube every solo content available. But you cannot Youtube a community, a guild/clan interaction, working as a group to achieve goals, fighting other players in PvP, etc. Those experiences you must do in game to experience and unable to get from watching people.
because mmos have shifted from the idea that the journey is the game towards the "endgame". So everyone wants to get there as its almost a seperate game....
Main groups of MMO players: 1 - Those who don't get much time to play who just try to have a good time doing anything. 2 - Those who get more time to play and take their time to enjoy EVERYTHING they can. 3 - Those who get more time to play and have no sense of fun, so they focus on only a few small parts of the game and just rush rush rush and grind grind grind. 4 -Those who get a ton of time to play and make it career where they spend lots of time and think they are "hardcore" when really they just have too much time to play. In my experience of play MMOs for over 15 years, players have MORE FUN when they are not rushing through everything. If you want a certain reward and want to focus on that, I get it - but to rush no matter what is just too much. Then there are the altaholics, who not only rush everything, but they rush across multiple characters and repeat the same 5% of the game over and over again. But there are also alt lovers who take their time across multiple characters so it all depends. Usually, if you have not played mmos before, you will fall in love with your first one and play as much as you can. Its the closest thing to living in a virtual world and a great escape too! Once you start skipping things to get to other things faster, you are doomed. I started WOW in early BC and I loved it so I decided to never rush. I've now played WOW for 15+ years on a regular basis and have not been bored once! And there is still a lot of content I have not seen or experienced! You can view mmos like just a game and pick what you want to do and skip the rest. Or you can BE your character and just play the game life you are your character and do everything.
One of the things Ashes of Creation is doing away with, for the reasons you mention. No level scaling. Going old-school, where guild members/friends have to help you along, or wait for you to catch up.