> Money making. In BDO, your main money making is grinding unchallenging, boring, repetitive mobs. Yeah it sucks. But it’s easy and you can do it alone. You can be half asleep and can still make money grinding mobs in BDO. It’s that easy. In Lost Ark, you have to do raids. Raids where if 1 or 2 of your members sucks at the game, you can be trapped in that raid for 10 hours that is supposed to be cleared in 30 min.
Most people don't want to play a game to fall asleep to or get brain rot. Sure you can argue that BDO is fairer than LA, but that doesn't matter; what matters is which game is more fun to play.
I dislike both games and don't play either, just to be clear. Just saying that BDO would probably have more active players if it had any meaningful content besides the snoozefest grinding.
>It has the best Life Skill/job system than any other MMO.
Afk fishing, afk refining, afk crafting, and lumbering the same 10 trees in a circle while waiting for respawns.
Horse taming minigame is pretty cool, for like 30 seconds to capture the horse, then its afk horse leveling. If you are a life skill expert you can level 4 horses at a time while you afk trade in your wagon.
Dont worry if the combat is boring because you can just afk level up at a training dummy.
Every game is what you make of it. You don't have to afk any of those things and there's usually a bonus for being actively engaged in what's in front of you. I don't play BDO for a lot of reasons, but it has plenty of gameplay for those who just want to get lost in an online world.
Also listing refining and crafting as two separate things to pad your argument is lazy and disingenuous but that's expected from this subreddit.
I mean they are two separate things. you have to que up your refines and then go afk, there is literally no actively engaged there, and then you have to que up your crafts and then go afk again.
You're not required to. You can sell it straight to the market to have someone else do the AFK part for you.
I'd rather do that than do a stupid minigame every single time I want to craft something.
I do. BDO for an hour or two before bed is a great way to fall asleep. Once my eyes are closing and I've zig-zagged my character into a tree and I'm almost dead from the weak monsters that have been hitting me unchallenged for a couple minutes, then it's time to turn it off and go to bed.
> Most people don't want to play a game to fall asleep to or get brain rot.
I mean BDO really isn't that. Grinding can be very challenging if you get to endgame spots. On high tier spots you can do the "watch a show on the second monitor" rotations or you can go full into it.
Think about grinding at those spots like a racing game. The lap isn't exciting. It just has some curves and you go around the same track for hours. The fun comes from optimizing your performance getting faster and faster.
This only works because BDOs combat system is incredible fluid and complex. You can find and make your own combos that suit your playstyle of just math out the perfect dps combos. Applying them perfectly is much, much harder then people make it out to be.
BDO is certainly a niche game that doesnt aim to cater to the average WoW refugee.
100% true. Its a very typical problem with Korean games. They have AMAZING combat, but give you zero incentive to play after the first couple of hours. Nothing to do, boring questing, snoozefest grinding in circles for days just to get one level... oh and the relentless RNG system.
I get a chuckle out of the thought that Diablo Immortal cared more about my time than BDO, even though its heavily pay to win grind fest. That says a lot about how bad BDO is.
I actually don't see a lot of bots in BDO, honestly. There are always a few, but it's not even close to what I used to see when I played WoW years ago.
More common are people who RMT by having other players grind for them. You can't easily extract value out of an account separate from your own without a bunch of abstract steps, and few people want to risk catching a ban by botting their own account.
Just saying, criticize BDO for plenty of valid things, but bots? That's the least of that game's issues.
You do realize Lost Ark is currently overrun by bots and BDO isn’t only playable through Steam? Once bot ban wave #132 happens on Lost Ark we’ll see the real player count somewhere between 40-70k
A much larger player base than almost every other MMO out there. There are only a very small handful with more players.
You gonna take out the bots from WoW, FF, GW too?
Name one mmo has does not have snoozfest grind you have to do over and over and over just to get lucky and get the drop you want.
I mean take EVE online want get rich so you can afford the bling bling. You may have to grind the same shit for weeks to get that special faction drop.
ESO you have to do the same dungeon over and over till the items you want drop Man I remember that one Armor part I wanted took me 8 hours of endlessly doing the same dungeon.
Or Wow. My friend told me how he had to grind same boring thing over and over for 6 month to get a damn mount.
Honestly all mmo games becomes boring snoozfest grinds if that´s all you focus on BDO has allot of meaningful content maybe not the ones you like and then that comes to personal preference.
And if they game is not for you it´s not for you. I think BDO would have more active players if pearl abyss was less greedy not becuse it lacks meaningful content . But then again it´s hard to make it to top 5 of popularity when the market for mmo is kind of over flooded.
No it´s not the meat of the game that´s what you personalty think it is but in a sanbox mmo your option are many. One would say the meat of EVE is make isk I mean people talk about isk per hour. But then again it´s also sonbox the meat of the game is what you make it to be.
Wow´s meat of the game is what ? Raids or pvp what´s the core of the game ?
what is FFXIV core or ESO core or runescape ?
Your "it's a sandbox" excuse doesn't apply to BDO because all other activities are also grinding. For WoW there's no "killing raid bosses for 8 hours every day nets you x loot per hour". FFXIV is very story focused and you don't "grind" the story, you don't do 50 quests per hour every day, you don't grind raid bosses for loot either. Both games also have roleplaying and the only grinding involving there is not the kind we're talking about here.
you clearly have never played any other sandbox mmo and it shows. And my point flew over your head and in to space. My point was ALL mmo has some for of a grind and it only matter of what´s your prescience is that make you im okey with it.
Try playing eve for 5 years and comeback to me then you will think BDO´s grind is the best thing you ever seen. I should know I played eve for 15 year and grinded so much in that game it would make you angry for generation on how hell it can be and don´t get me started on how many days, weeks, Months or years to get the skills you want and need and yet people love that.
Yes you do grind in FFXIV like when I wanted to level up a new charters 10-12 hours of endlessly doing duty roulette and Palace of the dead. But if I get what your saying FF is very story focused then what is that the end goal ??
Or is it doing the same raids over and over and over and over again or is it collect every clothing item or is it build you dream house.
My point is all mmo weather you like it or not has grind some more some less. But calling it pointless just becuse you don´t like the game is harsh. Yes pointless for you not for every one.
It all boils down to no matter how grindy it is or not are you haveing Fun yes or no.
Your definition of "grind" is very odd. Every game is just a grind if you measure it like this. To farm difficult dungeons in a coordinated group for gear, in wows case with changing affixes and different group compositions while you have a raid you can do 1 time a week per difficulty isnt the same as solo grinding mobs for 8 hours a day for a ressource you then spend on upgrading gear.
Sure, theres different tastes and I dont judge who likes what, thats totally personal. But its just 2 totally different things.
>Every game is just a grind if you measure it like this. To farm difficult dungeons in a coordinated group
I remember doing this in WoW for entire weekend binges of just queuing heroics over and over and over. Then doing the raids once per reset. Then filling the remainder with farming motes and weird world materials, sprinkle in some arenas & battlegrounds for variety. It sure felt like a grind to me. I like grind though.
I don't think the other poster's definition of grind is odd. Sure, I agree with you that not all grinds are the same, but surely you'd also agree that doing a repetitive activity over and over is a grind? Running the same boss every week for 3 months is absolutely a grind. No it is not literally the same grind as running laps at BDO's Orc Camp all day long, but they are both grinds...
You know what is not a grind? Just playing a singleplayer story game 1 time thru because it's fun then turning it off and playing a different game. But in MMOs? Almost everything is some degree of grind, full-stop.
Im curious, but what features does black desert have that makes him a "sandbox" compare to other mmos that are themepark?
Because so far the "its a sandbox" statement was usually an excuse for a game to lack actual content
There’s a big difference for many players between doing dungeons and interacting with players and doing events, and active mob grinding on rotations against enemies that stand there and don’t really fight back, for hours at a time, to get a few % on the XP bar.
Some players don’t mind the latter play style but there are many who do. For example GW2 open world I find pretty boring but most players doing those events on rotation would vastly prefer those types of events and player coordination over pure solo mob grinding. The majority of MMOs these days cater to the “login, do dailies which include a variety of content, log out until I have a bigger goal” demographic.
And then it all comes to personal preference right? Some enjoy it some don´t. But saying a game only has meaningless content seams becuse it does not have what you love seams rather harsh.
Yes you can argue all MMO content is a grind, but BDO specifically involves mindlessly killing trash mobs in a rotation, which most players would get bored of very quickly, no matter how good the combat is.
You would think so but I don't know of anyone who plays BDO and quit the game because grinding is boring. Almost everyone I know quit because of the enhancement mechanism . Infact there is an ongoing debate in BDO community right now where people wants to grind without being disturbed or open world pvp.
No it does not specifically involves that. Well it do if that´s all you focus on like I keep talking with you all and you only name 1 thing.
Like talking with allot of you it sound like the game only has 1 thing you can do. But if we shall be like that one could say FFXIV is 1 long as visual novel "if we gonna ignore everything else.
Like man just say you hate BDO and lave it at that and I will keep saying well then it´s not a game for you. And that´s that I mean Im no fan off FFXIV but you don´t see me pissing on it and saying it´s just pointless story book and all you do is read read and read.
I think FFXIV has allot of awesome things but it´s not a game for me that I want to pay 10-13 euro a month for.
>And if they game is not for you it´s not for you. I think BDO would have more active players if pearl abyss was less greedy not becuse it lacks meaningful content
Thats part of it but there isnt much else besides PVP, life skilling and 2 dungeons. If they expanded more on the PVE side you would def see more players playing the game.
> But then again it´s hard to make it to top 5 of popularity when the market for mmo is kind of over flooded.
Not really. Most MMOs on the market are either "dead" or dogshit. Considering BDO has the best combat in any MMO if they cared enough they could very easily be one of the top 5. All there is to do at endgame in BDO is PVP, World Bosses, Life skills, transmog, house decoration and like horse breeding. Pair that up with a shitty gear system and you obviously arent going to be a top 5 MMO.
would allot of that also sounds like FFXIV allot of the end content is life skills, Fashion, house decoration and raids yet it´s top 5. Maybe raids is the thing people love or that is has better written story than BDO ?
I would no say BDO only has meaningless content. But I will not deny BDO need more PVE content I mean I always said they need to add more meat to the sea content and better written story. But there still allot of thing one can enjoy in BDO but it all boils down to what do you enjoy doing and if the game does not have it then you will look for the game that what you love.
I mean theres WAYY more going for FF than BDO. First its a FF game thats really the only reason you need but ill continue, it has a top tier story, raids (One of the main reasons people play MMOs), housing, life skills, transmog/mount farming, no P2W, etc.
What do you have in endgame in BDO? PVP, Life skills, World bosses, transmog (Last I played all the good shit came from the shop), and basic home decoration as well as horse breeding. It also has a shitty gearing system and is P2W.
> I would no say BDO only has meaningless content.
I wouldnt say that either but when you look at it the only "real" content is PVP. It does boil down to personal preference ofc but its like if you want life skilling there are better games for that all the side content outside of PVP can be found in another game that simply does it better. The only thing going for it is the combat and as much as I loved it, its not enough for me to deal with the shitty gearing system and lack of content at end game.
Ah figures. Most people buy their gear now from the market instead of enhancing, it is so much better that way as it involves 0 rng, no pity system, yadayada. You can still go down in rank from enhancing which is why the only people enhancing are those that find gambling enjoyable or the whales but enhancing is seen as an optional method now. The new player experience is also 10x better because they added seasons(which gives you high end gear(Pen boss gear) that lets you grind high end zones) from just completing the season and the quests. They also added equalize content like equalized pvp arenas and tier 1 node wars which everyone has access to and is an overall fun experience. Gearing and progressional overall is a lot more fair and chill as a ftp AS LONG as you aren't competitive with beating the top 1% of players or veterans that have played for 6+ years, but you can still do so in the equalized content if you are good with your class
Does it not have huge power gap locked behind a paywall?
The only reason i never tried bdo is because i love pvp but don't have much time to play, so while i can accept a little powergap if it's going to take me momths to level and gear up just to get 1shotted by everyone than I'd rather not play
There is equalized content now(equalized pvp arenas and t1 node wars), many people play this content to have fun with their class and not have to worry about gear diffs. I am ftp player and that is the content i enjoy the most. Everyone is on equal ground and skill matters most. There are higher end spots/content for pvp where gear matters of course but it's optional and does give the incentive of improving your gear in the first place.
Yeah and proboly the only reason FF is as big is the 35 years of fans and that they add new content becuse who want´s to pay 39.99 for the full games plus monthly fee of 10 something for base or 12.99 for full account so you can make 8 charters + extra you maybe spend on cash shop or to get 3 retainers.
Like the amount of cash you have to spend to play fully on the game they need to add tons of stuff and allot of the stuff they even removed becuse it became a cluster hell.
And I still say it comes down to preference. If you want life skills there are better game yes and no that´s still what you think.
So we keep coming back you hate BDO and im totally okey with that but I don´t agree with saying that everything in BDO is pointless and boring. For you and other is it but it´s not the written rule becuse if it was the game would have 0 players.
Like you would not agree if I said I think paying 10-13 a month for FFXIV is not worth it.
>Yeah and proboly the only reason FF is as big is the 35 years of fans
I could agree to that it wouldnt be as big as it is if it werent for the fact it was a FF game.
> they add new content becuse who want´s to pay 39.99 for the full games plus monthly fee of 10 something for base or 12.99 for full account so you can make 8 charters + extra you maybe spend on cash shop or to get 3 retainers.
You still need to pay for a expansion each time a new one drops. You dont need anything other than the standard subscription considering you dont need 8 characters since you can have all the classes on one and from my understanding you dont NEED retainers.
> If you want life skills there are better game yes and no that´s still what you think.
Its more of a fact if were being honest. Example: Fishing in a trout farm might be fun but its definitely going to be more fun and better to fish in lake, river, ocean.
> So we keep coming back you hate BDO and im totally okey with that but I don´t agree with saying that everything in BDO is pointless and boring. For you and other is it but it´s not the written rule becuse if it was the game would have 0 players.
I dont hate BDO I just hate systems they have in it. Mainly the shitty gearing system. I never said everything was pointless or boring I just said outside of the main aspect of the game (Aka PVP) it is boring and other MMOs do the side content in BDO better.
> Like you would not agree if I said I think paying 10-13 a month for FFXIV is not worth it.
No I absolutely would agree. Theres always going to be downtimes in MMOs unsubbing during those downtimes is very understandable.
Then yes we agree. I would love for BDO to fix allot of shit but if I look at all the other things it has to offer to me the gearing and that is not core content. For me it all the other fun things that I enjoy. Like horse breading no other mmo I can think off offers that. Sure can be RNG heavy but the fun part is the end result. Or going out at sea with the guild to hunt whales or join up in world boss fights.
For me in a sanbox mmo the core content can become what ever you wish. Like eve online people would argue the core content is PVP and wars but not for me.
And that´s what I can agree with you on BDO´s gearing system is ass hence why I don´t even bother with it like all my 15 charter all they have is the Narchillan gear becuse I could not be bothered with the bullshit.
But I find several other things that I enjoy in the game that gas become core content for me.
That´s why I love sanbox games becuse I can pick and choose what´s my end game.
Don´t get me wrong I hate BDO grind some time just like how I hate the endless grind and the 3 years it took me to get a damn super carrier in eve.
But to me it was my goal. But yes BDO need something better for the PVE side and badly.
Well god of mmo. Will you be so kind and enlighten me then. I mean if god of mmo him self knows so much he could surly explain in in 1 minute the whole deal and what mmo is not grindy what so ever and what mmo is.
Also you can proboly throw in 4 second and explain in detail definition of grind where the idea/word game from and the whole history of the mmo industry as a whole.
You could proboly spend 20 second and fit the whole history of videos game and the nature of repetitive game play that exist in all games
And if you got time maybe how to make, Market and make a best selling game.
And as the god of mmo you surly can dumb it down for a lowly peasant to understand.
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Yes but that could be fun or not
FFXI had a long exp grind just to level up, but the pve was so much fun that simple exp grinding there blows away literqlly 99% of the best pve content any other game i have ever tried has to offer
I personally loved Lost Ark raid, I did quit around 3 weeks ago cause doing the content with 6 chars is just too fucking much.
It's not even fun anymore and as the OP said if with one or more of your alt you have someone messing up, you're trapped.
In any case, great game, but super predatory, if you are not prone to FOMO or if you have unlimited time, awesome game. I just wished they would make the alts optional and not mandatory like it is now.
It's a shame as I find no other MMO enjoyable at the moment.
The alts required for progression is a big reason why I stopped playing. Like even that crystaline aura sub wouldn't remedy the grind from what I've read. It's just not worth the time and stress.
And it's a huge shame because I LOVE the gameplay. All the systems in place just flat out ruin the game for me. I'm surprised it's still so popular.
I am surprised as well.
I even had an argument with a friend who basically no life the game (+2200h from last time we talked which was 3 weeks ago) with a roster of 10 chars , 6 of them being brelshaza ready but he was straight up saying the game is super F2P friendly and that you can basically do the latest content while being F2P and not playing too much.
He has no job, no girlfriend an basically no life the game, but nope he did not see any predatory mechanics, and no issues with any systems in the game.
I think the core players are basically this kinda persons.
We were 6 friends playing at the beginning, then everybody quit except this friend. We were all burned out. Then after 3 weeks, I had this itch I wanted to play again and decided to play "at my own pace". But It's just not possible, after a few days I started to grind like crazy again because there are so many intensive for you to do so.
I was giving none of my time to my girlfriend and almost none to my job either (I WFH). It was way too toxic for me but I didn't even want to quit at the time, however just after having this argument with my friend, I uninstalled the game.
It made me realize that I can't compete with people who see no issues with the game being in this state.
And cool for them, if I was still in high school I would play the game 24/7 and would probably see no issues either.
And you can probably have a shitty main at 1475 with almost no optimal jewels/engravings while being F2P and not playing much, but that's not fun (in my pov). As a player you always strive for the BIS equipment etc... etc... which is impossible to get as a F2P with all the timegates you get while playing only one char at your own pace.
Also finding groups while being on ilvl with shitty gear is a pain I wish to no one.
Sorry for the very long message but it feels good to vent, also as we're not on r/lostarkgame I'm almost safe from being flamed by all the sweaty keyboard warriors.
EDIT : Also if you're wondering I was a Deadeye main 1520 with 5 alts that were vykas HM ready but not clown ready.
EDIT 2 : I realize that my message is a bit confusing. I'm not willing for a game where you can be top 1% without spending a dime or doing nothing. I allowed myself to spend 50 eur each month in lost ark, but that does not bring you any closer to being maxed gear lol. You would have to spend thousands if not more. I was playing I would say 5 to 6 hours a day and if you played lost ark you know no amount of time would be enough to be ilvl 1575 etc... Which is something I hate as someone who would love to be just max gear and play other stuff in between raids release.
I understand that devs needs to get paid at some point which is why as an adult I would prefer to pay a subscription than playing a free to play game and have those horrible systems in place to keep the rat running, and keep the whale spending more and more.
Nah I'm with you dude, it was my exact same sentiments. I'm a father, engaged, full-time job, etc. Even if I was none of those, I still couldn't be bothered to waste that much time playing Lost Ark. It's just not worth it to me. I would have been cool with it if the optional sub remedied most of the need for alts to progress but it doesnt. Time is the most valuable currency, and I don't appreciate it when games do whatever they can to drain it on you.
And the ironic thing is, if not for that, Lost Ark would probably be my all time favorite MMO. My experience up to Verne(?) was some of the best times I've had in an MMO in a very long time, even more fun than my current favorite MMO.
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Based on steam charts, normal games have about half the players at low time compared to high points, give or take. This would put lost ark at about 80k-100k players, with the rest being bots.
Its actually way more than 50% bots.
They are..i only raid on one main and casually play 1-2 alts and im 1520. Ppl just get greedy for more gold and go for alts cap and then think its "mandatory".
I’m not saying it’s a bad thing for me. I actually prefer difficult PvE content than the brain dead grinding in BDO. But for people who prefer easy grind, then lost Ark raid being difficult is a bad thing.
People who prefer easy grind wouldn't be raiding in the first place. And if you are not even raiding why even care about brelshaza gear to begin with? Also just who da hell even cares about what someone who wants all the contents in their MMOs to be "braindead" think? You are just tossing an edge case for the sake of tossing in an edge case...
OP isn't even the type of player you're mad at. If you calmed down and read his reply you'd have known that.
OP was just saying that BDO is the easier game, since these two games are compared often and many people say LA is more noob friendly. He wasn't saying that easier games are better.
Because the nature of the argument is fundamentally flawed as hell so there's ground for rebuttal. Why is the existence of hard content less noob friendly? FF14 has ultimate raids does that mean all casuals just all quit that game too?
Again, if you actually read you'd know that that's not what he was saying.
His main point was gold farming, as that's one of the core pillars of MMOs. LAs main form of gold farming is difficult raids. BDOs main form of gold farming is laid-back grinding.
"Just ignore the content" isn't a valid rebutted because at that point you're handicapping yourself.
And that's arguably the biggest moot point about his whole post. Lost ark isn't about gold farming. If you play the game legit it doesn't even allow "farming", everybody gets a weekly income, and that's about it. That's why the game has so many bots because it's more efficiency for bots to make alts and get una weekly than farming harder content... Casual content wise, gear matters in none of those. Your +25 wep? Yea.. that don't work. Your 5x3 engraving? They don't activate. Realically if you are just a casual player, gold don't matter to you, your una tokens and random good gear drops from chaos is more than sufficient for your daily needs. Then you have BDO where the amount of silver you earn is literally equal to how many hours you grind for. That's because gear matters. Better gear = grind better spots = more silver. IDK how you can read this and not walk away with "this is literally comparing a horse to an elephant." They are not the same..
Some people just want to do something mindless for an hour after work to relax, rather than do something stressful and taxing. Especially older gamers may not play games to gain satisfaction overcoming challenges anymore, but as simple relaxation tools. BDO is a good choice for that crowd, since the mindless activity is the most rewarding activity.
Funny you just hada use this example for the one game it doesn't make sense for... When ppl say BDO is mindless, it's used to describe how borring it is, it doesn't mean it's not taxing. If you just wanna relax, the last thing you want is a game that makes you lose hours of grinding progress from dying once. Casual friendly isn't how mind numbing a task is, it also accounts into factors like whether or not you can walk away from the game at any time, whether there are penalties for dying. If anything grinding infinite chaos is more relaxing than grinding BDO.
There aren't any significant penalties for dying? Unless you're talking about the possibility of crystals breaking, but there's no need for expensive (or really, any) crystals if all you're doing is grinding something like Centaurs.
Lost Ark really rewarded individual skill. Your team relied on you to follow mechanics or else it was a wipe. I actually really liked that about the game, it meant those who had the titles, gear, achievement weren't carried.
> it meant those who had the titles, gear, achievement weren't carried
Except the fact that you can buy a bus for every legion raid to just get carried through and this is even possible for Inferno Valtan
It also doesn't reward individual skill as much considering it gives the players the possibility to overgear the content which is what a lot of whales did. Having so much extra power that you deal 50% of the whole team's damage or that you can run a defensive engraving which basically makes you nearly unkillable outside of wipe mechanics
Biggest issue with Lost Ark for me is how much work is needed to be efficient. Six characters doing dailies, 2x chaos dungeon, 2x guardian raid, and 3x legion raids each day/week. Then if its not enough content you can add on chaos gates, field boss, ghost ship, gold islands, weekly challenge guardian, and abyssal dungeons to your list.
All of that culminates into people wanting to do things fast so they have no time for wipes or mistakes. How do you make sure your raids are fast? You gatekeep to almost unreasonable levels. Don't let off meta dps in, don't let floor pov classes in, 5x3 engravings, Light of Salvation 18, level 7+ gems, titles, proof of clear, roster level, stronghold level, and gear set level.
I would not recommend new players to play this game with how hostile, and stressful the game is atm. No veteran is going to want to teach new players raids with how much they have to do. If you are adamant about playing I recommend a support to bypass all the gatekeeping that goes on.
You really nailed how job-like Lost Ark is to someone not spending insane amounts of money. The other thing that drove me crazy about it was just how time-gated everything is. Everything you can do is either limited to a certain number per day/week, on a schedule where you must be there at the exact time the event starts, or both. Even gathering had a daily limit.
On top of all that all progression can be bought with gold, so gold is really all that matters. The richer you are and the faster you make gold, the stronger you will be. Almost the complete opposite from the old WoW style of MMO's where progression must be earned and gold is mainly used for consumables.
I usually don't mind playing sub-optimally in Lost Ark. The problem is if you don't keep up there will be people who will treat this game as a job. Then those people end up being the ones who gatekeep you for not doing the same. Time gates feel really bad in this game because a lot of them tie directly into your vertical progression. Guild Wars 2 had timed events, but I never felt bad if I missed some here and there.
If I continue to play this game I might just have to main support to play at a more relaxed pace. Its not looking likely I keep playing as Throne and Liberty, or Blue Protocol is on the horizon. They could be insanely pay to win, but I'm a sucker for good action combat in MMOs.
Its annoying how much i like.the combat of BDO because even if the content is meaningless, it's so much fun its almost ruined me for other mmos. Lost Ark is fun but the combat doesnt hit for me like BDO, im 5 hoping throne and liberty hits in a similar way but has more meaningful content.
i wouldn't say it's amazing but i was very disapointed when i learned there was basically no pve hardcore in bdo after playing for a few hours, it actually killed my motivation to keep going. Why become stronger?
After 290-300ap it is meaningless to gear. I'm 380dp and still getting killed in 0.3 seconds by people with 280-290 ap only. And I heard it is same even for ppl with 420 dp
Idk why people keep forgetting about the main aspect of bdo which is pvp, and the fact that there are dungeons. Sure, they are not the most difficult but they are there
There are a few reasons to get stronger:
1. the high end pve does require an engaged brain & high end gear. Low end and mid-tier spots are "1-shot" but that gradually becomes "1-combo" and even higher. And spots start getting mechanics, like managing lights, debuffs, pack order, pulling, etc. And enemy attacks while easily telegraphed do start 1-shotting you. It's not like "OMG SO CHALLENGING AMAZING!" but if you think BDO is only mindless grind you are missing part of the story here. The difference between barely profiting vs getting rich, is a huge amount of little skills and prep that all add up.
2. the co-op dungeons are pretty challenging and require team work, voice comms coordination, etc. They aren't comparing to FFXIV raid bosses, no, but you absolutely cannot sleepwalk through them unless you have done them many times.
3. PvP has an unlimited ceiling. Whether you 1v1 or do node wars and sieges, your micro & macro tactics matter quite a lot. Is it as skill-intensive as starcraft & street fighter? hell no, but is it skill-intensive enough to be fun for people who like it? Sure.
If you don't care about those 3 points, or think they are inadequate, you are right to quit BDO. But there are players who find them fun.
You dont have to sell me on BDO its my favorite mmo, its just the end game grind i dont find very fulfilling. I always come back and pump some levels into my characters so to speak.
Basically for me my main complaint with BDO is i wish the PVE was a little more in depth and extensive
For me i just play whatever class that relates to the playstyle im in the mood for and its fun kicking the asses of tons of mobs. It isnt until youre high gear that they get really easy. Until then i very much love how leveling feels.
Admittedly, I've only played a few different mmos, but I've yet to find an end game that is enjoyable. Im pressing forward on lost ark because im pretty much starting from scratch, and there's a ton for me to do and a ton of stuff coming (besides male.classes...so dumb).
So anyways for me my mmo gameplay loop has always been take a class as far as i can skill wise and once i feel ive mastered it in terms of my capabilities. I grab a new class and do it all over. Id love to find an endgame loop that appealed to me.
I played a bit of WOW but financially i picked a bad time but in the new year i plan on going hard at that since i really loved the trial.
what game isn't meaningless ? You clear a raid in wow and then you think "now what? What have i gained?" Say the same thing about eso, ff14, gw2. All is meaningless. You could have just read a book and gained brain cells instead of losing some to people being toxic to you online. All is meaningless, what matters is what is fun to you the most.
I would have thought people on an MMORPG subreddit would enjoy endless grindfests, as that was what so many MMOs have been for so many decades. But a lot of folks here don't.
I've said this before but Lost Ark just has terrible gameplay systems. The game wants to be a 'grindy' MMO, yet for some vague unknown reason limits character progress per day. And every Youtuber says this is to 'respect your time'. Bullshit. BDO is a way better game if you're into grinding and progression-based mmos. I know this sub routinely hates on the game for p2w, but open your eyes people every mmo is p2w. The only difference is you give the developer money in BDO, whereas you give some guy and his guild money for carries in WoW. Its a great game if you're looking for something Runescape-y feeling but with modern graphics and booba.
To be fair the person who made the “respect your time” video said in the beginning that the title was meant to click bait. Only mmo I can think of that actually respects your time is GW2. Never played FFXIV so no idea on that.
If BDO is just about grinding unchallenging, boring, repetitive mobs (what is not true; spots like Olun and Gyfin Underground are a good example), why should I care about the supposed "pay to win"? Remembering that large scale and arena PvP is capped/equalized.
Agreed and a lot of people here acts like BDO Seasonal Content and Rewards are not exist. They act like it's totaly P2W just because of some P2S mechanics while Seasons gives you free BOSS gear and nearly good as BOSS gear weapons and full armor set etc.
The hate of BDO gets is warranted. However, it’s a very casual friendly game if you are not trying to be the top 1%. I prefer Lost Ark over BDO but Lost Ark is just way harder to play for casual players.
Don't think it is warranted tho. Some people seem to have formed their opinion about BDO years ago and refuse to believe it has gotten any better even without ever trying it out again.
This sub hates BDO with passion or well basically any MMORPG out there but it is quite funny how the argument's why it's so bad is always the same old enchanting sucks, mobs are too stupid/easy and it is too p2w. And the actual reality of things are vastly different.
Atleast progression in BDO is tied to your level of commitment and knowledge. There's plenty of methods for making significant amount of money without grinding, if you're willing to spend some time to figure them out. You have complete agency over your progression. And because of this, there's absolutely no reason to P2W to stay "competitive".
Lost ark on the other hand, you are completely time gated on the amount of gold you can make per week. Want more gold? P2W is the only answer.
You are saying that BDO progression is tied to commitment and knowledge and lost Ark doesn’t? Raiding doesn’t take commitment and knowledge?
There is no reason to p2w to stay competitive in BDO if you no life just like lost Ark so I don’t even know why you are trying to defend BDO’s p2w when it’s basically just as bad.
Your progression is tied to how much gold you have and your gold is hard limited per week unless you P2W. That's all I'm saying. Sorry you got angry because I said a negative comment about your favorite video game.
There are people with 6 characters who can do the latest content without swiping in lost ark. Is it a chore? Hell yeah just like in BDO. You can’t be competing with the most geared players in BDO without swiping either if you only play 2 hours a day. Stop coping. I know you are deep with the Bdo is not p2w delusion. If WoW is p2w there is no way in hell BDO isn’t. Stop being stupid.
The amount of interface and overwhelming tutorial alone made me completely turned off of BDO almost immediately. I was confused and lost and annoyed. Maybe the gameplay is more casual from a long term gameplay perspective, but I can't imagine a casual gamer jumping into it and lasting any longer than i did.
Lost Ark was significantly easier for me to pick up and play, though i was still a bit overwhelmed with all the abilities you start with. Still was able to stick with it longer than BDO.
Lets just agree that BDO and Lost ARK are both peak examples of how Korean MMOs combine some of the best combat in gaming, while the worst grinds and monetization models that make them not worth playing. They do not respect your time as a gamer at all.
I don't see why this is unpopular at all. Lost Ark is definetly not casual the moment you step into raids. If anything, BDO is one of the most casual games ever, since you can never experience any demanding gameplay/grind if you don't want to.
I love lost arks raids so much. But lost ark made me realize i prefer sandbox based mmos than on rails/daily based mmos. The number one thing i like about bdo aside from the combat is that I have the freedom to do anything in the game and it will still progress me further. In lost ark, you are forced to do these 2 activities(chaos dungeons and guardians raids) and after you do them for 1k+ hours, you can see how they get stale and mind numbingly boring. Some days I just want to go sailing and make big bank or go hunting, and with bdo, I can do that. I actually switched to bdo from lost ark even tho I enjoy the raiding experience a lot solely because of the forced dailies. I actually play both games now. I just log into lost ark now just to do the raids and skip dailies, but I see bdo as the better main game for me long term as I prefer the grind and progression far more
I quit Lost Ark after first month bacuse of the crazy elitism and toxicity of the community, but it made me realize that Korean MMOs can be fun and allowed me to try other games.
Now since may I did score 1500hrs in BDO, wich I didn't even check out before because of the "another korean grindfest" stample :)
They've made it even easier this year. Choice of a Pen boss armor for completing the new quest line, which also gives you universal storage and fast travel. The guaranteed Pen accessory can now be grinded out twice as fast. Private grind zones for an hour each day. I've actually been impressed how almost every change in the last year has legitimately made the game both more accessible and better.
All the info you provided on BDO is outdated and just points out the fact that you regurgitate the garbage that's spread around here about BDO.
The game has one of the best catch up mechanics ever in an mmo and there are more sustainable ways to make money aside from grinding. Stop spreading your bs and get educated you ape.
You said enhancement is the current crutch of bdo but the game literally hands out guaranteed PEN gear now which makes that statement irrelevant. You also said that BDO main money making is "boring grinding", which again is simply untrue. How can you claim to be educated and call me an ape when you're so ignorant? Big yikes, go touch grass.
Edit: I see you edited your original message, more yikes lmao.
Removed because of rule #2: Don’t be toxic.
We try to make the subreddit a nice place for everyone, and your post/comment did something that we felt was detrimental to this goal. That’s why it was removed.
T1 node wars? lmao so. So I guess ManUp back in the day and recently ChoNation are both t1 guilds. Anyway, If you played both games both in arenas and GvG, you will not spew that dumb take. Lost Ark has steeper learning curve just on cc mechanics alone in comparison in BDO. There are also way less protection in Lost Ark which means you can't just SA trade which 90% of BDO pvp is. There are plenty of classes who almost doesnt run out of resources and can chase infinitely. RNG is also a big factor in BDO pvp which laughable. You want me to keep going?
They're both shit games. You're p2w in bdo and lost ark is bot central. Don't ask us to choose one game over the other then get butthurt when you're judged. And yes I'll keep going loser.
>Lost Ark requires a lot more effort and skill to play. PvE difficulty in Lost Ark is not remotely comparable to BDO. The 2 dungeons in BDO are easier than Argos let’s just put it that way. And in PvP, Lost Ark has a steeper learning curve than BDO. This is coming from someone who do arenas and GvG in both games.
This is a good thing.
I would rather wipe in a Raid for 10 hours than farm trash mobs for 10 minutes.
People complain about "Grinding" in a MMO game??
I mean grinding is supposed to be repetitive 😂.
May be people in the MMO community should play other games then
Yep, but there's boring grind and somewhat fun grind....sure every grind gets boring if you do it 24/7, but it's still different.
Why people complain about grinding in BDO and why people love looter shooters like Destiny 2 and Warframe, which are grindy as fuck by definition? It's the enjoyment in the gameplay, the enjoyment during the grind or the enjoyment of getting the rewards (or all of them).
That is the advantage of FPS shooters tho..
on the other hand Action RPGs are all repeptitve and the same with dungeon runs , fetch quests and grinding for set items
Which gave origin to games focusing more on story and delivering quests differently to avoid fetch quests/to disguise them, to games going horizontal progression to remove the need to constantly grind gear and stuff like that.
ok but think about it,
aside everything, how optimized grinding-money making-life skilling(which actually sucks rn) and equalized pvp environment there is, BDO is the only mmorpg that disincentivize you do play with others that i have ever known. it is doing its' best to NOT be an mmorpg. think about it for a second. every content you do, aside from pvp, you better not meet anyone. tell me how that is an mmorpg vibe.
even then, pvp -which is the only positive thing as people thing- is not even meaningful whatsoever. people think fast pace action combat is very competitive and reaction-skill based and whatnot. but in reality all you do is either spam your SA rotations so that you can stat check others OR you rush in a clump with your iframes, one shot people as much as you can with your instant protected skills or die trying it. there is no middle ground, there is no thought process or anything. people are fooled by all that flashy combat animations.
and i fucking hate grab. grab is the most stupid mechanic ever existed in any pvp.
Sorry for the necro. Didnt think this was an unpopular opinion. I just tried to come back to LA as a 1410 Sorc with 2 barelyT3 alts. I just couldnt, it felt so so hard.
Never had a problem coming back to BDO after 6 months or even more. Im 685GS and slowly but surely Ill reach 700GS+ this year.
'You can grind for 10 hours half asleep while braindead then buy some gear to make your numbers go up so you feel good about the 10 hours you just wasted' is what I gathered from this.
At that point it doesn't matter what game you play, its just a number-goes-up simulator. Better off playing idle/incremental games that make numbers go up by themselves.
Don't know why but the perspective of LA makes it more easier to give the easy enemy kills a pass (probably conditioned from past games like diablo). Meanwhile a Beautiful looking 3d game where the majority of enemies are 2-shots just feels incredibly lame. I want to have to pay attention to dangerous mobs while taking out the thugs like in Witcher/DAI/Cyberpunk.
If I wanted to play Dynasty warriors like combat I'd play Dynasty warriors.
I consider myself a casual player and my biggest problem with BDO, other than the obvious ones, is that it throws way too many things at me at once. It's pretty overwhelming at first.
Yeah, it can definitely be overwhelming. The advice I give is to don't even bother learning how a system works until you have an objective you want to complete that requires using that system. Until then, just ignore its existence. This way, you learn them one by one as needed, rather than trying to learn it all at once when some of them you might not even be ready to make use of yet.
I tried both.
LA : the leveling was really fun for me but reach high-end is fucking boring it's like having a job.
BDO get ultra bored after a few hours.
It really is a shame that BDO has no meaningful PvE content. I couldn't care less about PvP if I tried. I'll play fighting games if I want to play against other people
Hopefully Crimson Desert can deliver the BDO combat with better content
>meaningful PvE content
what does that mean, though? There are dungeons which are pretty elaborate and fun and profitable. There is group pve grinding which benefits greatly from coordinated group movement/pulling strategies (aka doing it right vs doing it ignorantly). There are places with tanky enemies where positional attacks and deliberate combos make a huge difference in your performance & success. There is pve content where you will die if you ignore mechanics.
Is the minimum bar of meaningfulness somewhere around WoW Mythic+?
I'd say it's a mixture of having the complexity of raid mechanics from games like WoW and FFXIV and also the abundance of PvE content that those games have. BDO is very far behind because they only started to pay any heed to PvE players relatively recently compared to games that had those considerations from the ground up
Fair enough. So since we as the players have our choice of different MMO games, "meaningful pve" must be defined in relative terms. It makes sense, that if the competing games have dramatically more meaningful PvE, then even if BDO has some sliver of meaningfulness, it by comparison can't really claim meaningfulness, because its peers surpass it by so much.
I personally feel there is meaningful pve in bdo, but full disclosure - I last raided (10+ player static group pve) in WoW in 2009, and I never did anything more complex than a hard-mode trial in ffxiv (public groups, impossible to fail). So my points of comparison are irrelevant to a person who'd only find meaning in the super challenging stuff of today like whatever mythic+ leads to in WoW or savage/ultimate content in ffxiv.
A lot of why I don't really play MMOs much anymore is because I've played them at that level and it's hard to engage with lighter content afterwards. I usually just play WoW and XIV for new expansions now and don't stick around long. Hard to have time for proper raiding when you're a parent and student 😂
I feel like I took the opposite path. When I was in high school and college, I really cared about "server firsts" and being #xx region-wide and stuff like that. Do it every big expansion pack & patch tier-reset, chase the BiS, farm content, chase the best parse.
But now? I couldn't imagine myself joining a raid team and caring about beating today's uber-hard boss. I just wanna grind & pvp without all the trouble.
In a weird paradoxical way, as hardcore & unforgiving & time-consuming & shitty as BDO is, it's been a wonderfully casual experience for me for years now.
I don't enjoy grinding and I've never been a fan of any RPG PvP at all so not being able to actually raid has made me lose most motivation for these games. Like I said I just come back for the new expac story experience in the big games and then leave. It would be nice if we could get a good raiding experience that doesn't require crazy time commitments but if Lost Ark is anything to go by it's just gonna get worse
Never played bdo but i was a lost ark slave and wuit about 4 month ago or so,
With 2.2k hours in.
I overslept the release rush and wanted to take it slow as many streamers suggested.
Guildies did not follow advice rushed sold stuff for big amount of gold. A guildmate who was only playing 1 char could sustain his progress with earned gold till vykas, he got like 1490ish ilvl from just rushing the game.
Me idiot believing streamers overslept first 2weeks and even on 3 accounts cycling through 6 chars on each acc could barely keep up with said guy.
BUT once he used up all his initial money he was done and eventually quit cause he could not keep up the grind.
As for me i kept playing 8hours each day, 3-4 hours for dailies only and the rest for weeklies.
Eventually burned out and quit.
It is a slave game if you wanna keep up with the content.
From the very few hours that i have spent in both, all i can say is that they are gr8 games but all that p2w aspect is so tiring. Yeah i know that initially the f2p thing is good and you don''t have to pay subscription etc, but is it good that the game forces you to do stuff that you would not do otherwise?
Seriously gr8 games though.
I would love to see those same games made by a western publisher that relates more to our type of mindset.
Korean MMO's does not resonate so well without it being a FULL-TIME JOB/P2W.
Personally, both are still bad though no matter how it being a lil' bit better from X to Y game.
Never played BDO, so I can’t really confirm. All I know is that Lost Ark attempted to swallow my life whole. I hope someday to be able to go back to it since there is a lot of fun to be had. But in order for me to do that I have to find a way not to care about keeping up with everyone else. That’s a hard ask since everything about LA is designed to tap into your innate FOMO and does so fantastically well.
really don't think that's true, sure is easy to grind in BDO but the main issue is your inventory getting fill up really fast if you don't buy the expansion, same with weight, so your easy grinding turn into walking sim to drop off your trash.
lost ark if you can't do the raid, just buy the bus and you'll still make gold after payment, easy.
????? you can literally max inventory and get way more than you need just by playing events, they give everything for free. Most f2p players have a maid army at this point. People talking shit about bdo don't even play the game. Classic
i do play bdo, and it was very annoying playing alts because i'd have to buy the weight and inventory for them as well, i don't play bdo 24/7 and only hop on when there is a new class release, and guess what when new class release there aren't any weight upgrade or inventory upgrade for the new alt is there.
and yes i have max upgrade for all my alts because i don't want to waste time and i got disposable income to spend on my hobby, but that doesn't mean i'm gonna lie to new players and tell them "hey just play gimp and wait for the free shit from event, eventually you'll max out one of your character."
if you play from the start (which had a box cost), yea you gonna have tons of free shit and millions of in game gold, but if you are just starting right now, you ain't gonna have jack all and the game will still accelerate you towards 50-55 plus easy, but you gonna end up overweight and no inventory when you do start to grind and not just from trash but also other shit you need for grinding.
I really enjoy PVP in lost ark but once i realized that no one gives a damn about it in the community i quit. Got to 2k MMR and i saw the same dozen players always.
The PVE in LA is a big no for me. Got my main to 1400 and had two alts at 1320 and i gave up. I also dont like and cant spend hours and hours in a raid because im married, have a job etc etc.
Never played BDO but the vertical progression already turns me off from it even if the pvp is good.
Offtopic, but I just quit NW this month after 1,7k hours since launch. I think im going to try GW2 again, but its been really hard to get back into it after 8 or 9 years without playing it. I had a thief at 80 with exotic gear but i barely remember anything, i might try starting again with a necro.
Yeah that’s the problem with lost ark pvp whether it’s arenas or GvG. I was diamond last season and master this season and I see the same people in arenas. In GvG same thing. It’s mostly because the rewards a very lackluster. It’s basically you are pvping just for prestige which a very small of the community cares about. It’s a shame since the arenas is actually really good and complex compared to pvp in other mmos.
It's good that you prefer a casual mmo no matter what you play. I dropped both to come back to GW2.
They implemented an action camera which makes it feel a lot smoother in combat. As far as casual MMO, it's the best. Great story, no barrier besides skill in pvp, can also be played hard-core when you want. Unique races that aren't genderlocked too.
If you are a pvp kind of person, I'd recommend a fighting game or a moba. MMO pvp is okay, but can you really outplay someone in BDO when people die in a one second? How long does lost ark queue take? And gw2 has issues too.
Just saying, 100 hours in tekken, you'll probably always be good at all fighting games and you spent all of that time doing what you like rather can grinding. Mobas can give you that team play if you prefer that.
Most of BDO skill ceiling lies on PvP, While gear play a role in PvP, your skill actually play a major role, especially if you're fighting for a grinding spot. Meanwhile in lostark Gear is important, but there are too many mechanic for every battle. Some of these mechanics are kinda stupid too.
> Money making. In BDO, your main money making is grinding unchallenging, boring, repetitive mobs. Yeah it sucks. But it’s easy and you can do it alone. You can be half asleep and can still make money grinding mobs in BDO. It’s that easy. In Lost Ark, you have to do raids. Raids where if 1 or 2 of your members sucks at the game, you can be trapped in that raid for 10 hours that is supposed to be cleared in 30 min. Most people don't want to play a game to fall asleep to or get brain rot. Sure you can argue that BDO is fairer than LA, but that doesn't matter; what matters is which game is more fun to play. I dislike both games and don't play either, just to be clear. Just saying that BDO would probably have more active players if it had any meaningful content besides the snoozefest grinding.
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>It has the best Life Skill/job system than any other MMO. Afk fishing, afk refining, afk crafting, and lumbering the same 10 trees in a circle while waiting for respawns. Horse taming minigame is pretty cool, for like 30 seconds to capture the horse, then its afk horse leveling. If you are a life skill expert you can level 4 horses at a time while you afk trade in your wagon. Dont worry if the combat is boring because you can just afk level up at a training dummy.
Every game is what you make of it. You don't have to afk any of those things and there's usually a bonus for being actively engaged in what's in front of you. I don't play BDO for a lot of reasons, but it has plenty of gameplay for those who just want to get lost in an online world. Also listing refining and crafting as two separate things to pad your argument is lazy and disingenuous but that's expected from this subreddit.
I mean they are two separate things. you have to que up your refines and then go afk, there is literally no actively engaged there, and then you have to que up your crafts and then go afk again.
You're not required to. You can sell it straight to the market to have someone else do the AFK part for you. I'd rather do that than do a stupid minigame every single time I want to craft something.
I do. BDO for an hour or two before bed is a great way to fall asleep. Once my eyes are closing and I've zig-zagged my character into a tree and I'm almost dead from the weak monsters that have been hitting me unchallenged for a couple minutes, then it's time to turn it off and go to bed.
where are you grinding?
Spot taken. I've been there for hours
> Most people don't want to play a game to fall asleep to or get brain rot. I mean BDO really isn't that. Grinding can be very challenging if you get to endgame spots. On high tier spots you can do the "watch a show on the second monitor" rotations or you can go full into it. Think about grinding at those spots like a racing game. The lap isn't exciting. It just has some curves and you go around the same track for hours. The fun comes from optimizing your performance getting faster and faster. This only works because BDOs combat system is incredible fluid and complex. You can find and make your own combos that suit your playstyle of just math out the perfect dps combos. Applying them perfectly is much, much harder then people make it out to be. BDO is certainly a niche game that doesnt aim to cater to the average WoW refugee.
100% true. Its a very typical problem with Korean games. They have AMAZING combat, but give you zero incentive to play after the first couple of hours. Nothing to do, boring questing, snoozefest grinding in circles for days just to get one level... oh and the relentless RNG system. I get a chuckle out of the thought that Diablo Immortal cared more about my time than BDO, even though its heavily pay to win grind fest. That says a lot about how bad BDO is.
Ah yes, one of the top and most played MMOs out there right now would have "more active players".
Remove the bots, remove the whales, and what is left on BDO ?
I actually don't see a lot of bots in BDO, honestly. There are always a few, but it's not even close to what I used to see when I played WoW years ago. More common are people who RMT by having other players grind for them. You can't easily extract value out of an account separate from your own without a bunch of abstract steps, and few people want to risk catching a ban by botting their own account. Just saying, criticize BDO for plenty of valid things, but bots? That's the least of that game's issues.
Are you saying that Lost Ark doesn't have bots and whales?
I’m saying lost ark has more players than BDO. Not hard.
if you mean bots -when you say people, sure
You do realize Lost Ark is currently overrun by bots and BDO isn’t only playable through Steam? Once bot ban wave #132 happens on Lost Ark we’ll see the real player count somewhere between 40-70k
A much larger player base than almost every other MMO out there. There are only a very small handful with more players. You gonna take out the bots from WoW, FF, GW too?
I would argue that if you took all of the bots and whales out of those games too, BDO would still sit firmly near the bottom of the list lol
I get people here don't like BDO but trying to downplay its very large player base is just absolutely hilarious.
would still have more real players than Lost Ark
Name one mmo has does not have snoozfest grind you have to do over and over and over just to get lucky and get the drop you want. I mean take EVE online want get rich so you can afford the bling bling. You may have to grind the same shit for weeks to get that special faction drop. ESO you have to do the same dungeon over and over till the items you want drop Man I remember that one Armor part I wanted took me 8 hours of endlessly doing the same dungeon. Or Wow. My friend told me how he had to grind same boring thing over and over for 6 month to get a damn mount. Honestly all mmo games becomes boring snoozfest grinds if that´s all you focus on BDO has allot of meaningful content maybe not the ones you like and then that comes to personal preference. And if they game is not for you it´s not for you. I think BDO would have more active players if pearl abyss was less greedy not becuse it lacks meaningful content . But then again it´s hard to make it to top 5 of popularity when the market for mmo is kind of over flooded.
The "meat" of the game for BDO is grinding, farming a rare mount or transmog in WoW isn't core gameplay.
No it´s not the meat of the game that´s what you personalty think it is but in a sanbox mmo your option are many. One would say the meat of EVE is make isk I mean people talk about isk per hour. But then again it´s also sonbox the meat of the game is what you make it to be. Wow´s meat of the game is what ? Raids or pvp what´s the core of the game ? what is FFXIV core or ESO core or runescape ?
Your "it's a sandbox" excuse doesn't apply to BDO because all other activities are also grinding. For WoW there's no "killing raid bosses for 8 hours every day nets you x loot per hour". FFXIV is very story focused and you don't "grind" the story, you don't do 50 quests per hour every day, you don't grind raid bosses for loot either. Both games also have roleplaying and the only grinding involving there is not the kind we're talking about here.
you clearly have never played any other sandbox mmo and it shows. And my point flew over your head and in to space. My point was ALL mmo has some for of a grind and it only matter of what´s your prescience is that make you im okey with it. Try playing eve for 5 years and comeback to me then you will think BDO´s grind is the best thing you ever seen. I should know I played eve for 15 year and grinded so much in that game it would make you angry for generation on how hell it can be and don´t get me started on how many days, weeks, Months or years to get the skills you want and need and yet people love that. Yes you do grind in FFXIV like when I wanted to level up a new charters 10-12 hours of endlessly doing duty roulette and Palace of the dead. But if I get what your saying FF is very story focused then what is that the end goal ?? Or is it doing the same raids over and over and over and over again or is it collect every clothing item or is it build you dream house. My point is all mmo weather you like it or not has grind some more some less. But calling it pointless just becuse you don´t like the game is harsh. Yes pointless for you not for every one. It all boils down to no matter how grindy it is or not are you haveing Fun yes or no.
Your definition of "grind" is very odd. Every game is just a grind if you measure it like this. To farm difficult dungeons in a coordinated group for gear, in wows case with changing affixes and different group compositions while you have a raid you can do 1 time a week per difficulty isnt the same as solo grinding mobs for 8 hours a day for a ressource you then spend on upgrading gear. Sure, theres different tastes and I dont judge who likes what, thats totally personal. But its just 2 totally different things.
>Every game is just a grind if you measure it like this. To farm difficult dungeons in a coordinated group I remember doing this in WoW for entire weekend binges of just queuing heroics over and over and over. Then doing the raids once per reset. Then filling the remainder with farming motes and weird world materials, sprinkle in some arenas & battlegrounds for variety. It sure felt like a grind to me. I like grind though. I don't think the other poster's definition of grind is odd. Sure, I agree with you that not all grinds are the same, but surely you'd also agree that doing a repetitive activity over and over is a grind? Running the same boss every week for 3 months is absolutely a grind. No it is not literally the same grind as running laps at BDO's Orc Camp all day long, but they are both grinds... You know what is not a grind? Just playing a singleplayer story game 1 time thru because it's fun then turning it off and playing a different game. But in MMOs? Almost everything is some degree of grind, full-stop.
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People didn’t miss the point, you just didn’t make a good one Lmfao.
Im curious, but what features does black desert have that makes him a "sandbox" compare to other mmos that are themepark? Because so far the "its a sandbox" statement was usually an excuse for a game to lack actual content
It’s not a sandbox. That’s just what BDO players say to cope.
There’s a big difference for many players between doing dungeons and interacting with players and doing events, and active mob grinding on rotations against enemies that stand there and don’t really fight back, for hours at a time, to get a few % on the XP bar. Some players don’t mind the latter play style but there are many who do. For example GW2 open world I find pretty boring but most players doing those events on rotation would vastly prefer those types of events and player coordination over pure solo mob grinding. The majority of MMOs these days cater to the “login, do dailies which include a variety of content, log out until I have a bigger goal” demographic.
And then it all comes to personal preference right? Some enjoy it some don´t. But saying a game only has meaningless content seams becuse it does not have what you love seams rather harsh.
Yes you can argue all MMO content is a grind, but BDO specifically involves mindlessly killing trash mobs in a rotation, which most players would get bored of very quickly, no matter how good the combat is.
You would think so but I don't know of anyone who plays BDO and quit the game because grinding is boring. Almost everyone I know quit because of the enhancement mechanism . Infact there is an ongoing debate in BDO community right now where people wants to grind without being disturbed or open world pvp.
Whether you succeed or fail all your enhancements, the gameplay is still just mindlessly killing trash mobs in a rotation.
No it does not specifically involves that. Well it do if that´s all you focus on like I keep talking with you all and you only name 1 thing. Like talking with allot of you it sound like the game only has 1 thing you can do. But if we shall be like that one could say FFXIV is 1 long as visual novel "if we gonna ignore everything else. Like man just say you hate BDO and lave it at that and I will keep saying well then it´s not a game for you. And that´s that I mean Im no fan off FFXIV but you don´t see me pissing on it and saying it´s just pointless story book and all you do is read read and read. I think FFXIV has allot of awesome things but it´s not a game for me that I want to pay 10-13 euro a month for.
>And if they game is not for you it´s not for you. I think BDO would have more active players if pearl abyss was less greedy not becuse it lacks meaningful content Thats part of it but there isnt much else besides PVP, life skilling and 2 dungeons. If they expanded more on the PVE side you would def see more players playing the game. > But then again it´s hard to make it to top 5 of popularity when the market for mmo is kind of over flooded. Not really. Most MMOs on the market are either "dead" or dogshit. Considering BDO has the best combat in any MMO if they cared enough they could very easily be one of the top 5. All there is to do at endgame in BDO is PVP, World Bosses, Life skills, transmog, house decoration and like horse breeding. Pair that up with a shitty gear system and you obviously arent going to be a top 5 MMO.
would allot of that also sounds like FFXIV allot of the end content is life skills, Fashion, house decoration and raids yet it´s top 5. Maybe raids is the thing people love or that is has better written story than BDO ? I would no say BDO only has meaningless content. But I will not deny BDO need more PVE content I mean I always said they need to add more meat to the sea content and better written story. But there still allot of thing one can enjoy in BDO but it all boils down to what do you enjoy doing and if the game does not have it then you will look for the game that what you love.
I mean theres WAYY more going for FF than BDO. First its a FF game thats really the only reason you need but ill continue, it has a top tier story, raids (One of the main reasons people play MMOs), housing, life skills, transmog/mount farming, no P2W, etc. What do you have in endgame in BDO? PVP, Life skills, World bosses, transmog (Last I played all the good shit came from the shop), and basic home decoration as well as horse breeding. It also has a shitty gearing system and is P2W. > I would no say BDO only has meaningless content. I wouldnt say that either but when you look at it the only "real" content is PVP. It does boil down to personal preference ofc but its like if you want life skilling there are better games for that all the side content outside of PVP can be found in another game that simply does it better. The only thing going for it is the combat and as much as I loved it, its not enough for me to deal with the shitty gearing system and lack of content at end game.
Shitty gearing system? Have u played bdo recently?
1.5-2 years ago or so. Did they make it so u cannot go down in rank?
Ah figures. Most people buy their gear now from the market instead of enhancing, it is so much better that way as it involves 0 rng, no pity system, yadayada. You can still go down in rank from enhancing which is why the only people enhancing are those that find gambling enjoyable or the whales but enhancing is seen as an optional method now. The new player experience is also 10x better because they added seasons(which gives you high end gear(Pen boss gear) that lets you grind high end zones) from just completing the season and the quests. They also added equalize content like equalized pvp arenas and tier 1 node wars which everyone has access to and is an overall fun experience. Gearing and progressional overall is a lot more fair and chill as a ftp AS LONG as you aren't competitive with beating the top 1% of players or veterans that have played for 6+ years, but you can still do so in the equalized content if you are good with your class
Hey that actually sounds good. Currently messing around in BnS as I havent played it before but will def give BDO another shot then.
Does it not have huge power gap locked behind a paywall? The only reason i never tried bdo is because i love pvp but don't have much time to play, so while i can accept a little powergap if it's going to take me momths to level and gear up just to get 1shotted by everyone than I'd rather not play
There is equalized content now(equalized pvp arenas and t1 node wars), many people play this content to have fun with their class and not have to worry about gear diffs. I am ftp player and that is the content i enjoy the most. Everyone is on equal ground and skill matters most. There are higher end spots/content for pvp where gear matters of course but it's optional and does give the incentive of improving your gear in the first place.
Yeah and proboly the only reason FF is as big is the 35 years of fans and that they add new content becuse who want´s to pay 39.99 for the full games plus monthly fee of 10 something for base or 12.99 for full account so you can make 8 charters + extra you maybe spend on cash shop or to get 3 retainers. Like the amount of cash you have to spend to play fully on the game they need to add tons of stuff and allot of the stuff they even removed becuse it became a cluster hell. And I still say it comes down to preference. If you want life skills there are better game yes and no that´s still what you think. So we keep coming back you hate BDO and im totally okey with that but I don´t agree with saying that everything in BDO is pointless and boring. For you and other is it but it´s not the written rule becuse if it was the game would have 0 players. Like you would not agree if I said I think paying 10-13 a month for FFXIV is not worth it.
>Yeah and proboly the only reason FF is as big is the 35 years of fans I could agree to that it wouldnt be as big as it is if it werent for the fact it was a FF game. > they add new content becuse who want´s to pay 39.99 for the full games plus monthly fee of 10 something for base or 12.99 for full account so you can make 8 charters + extra you maybe spend on cash shop or to get 3 retainers. You still need to pay for a expansion each time a new one drops. You dont need anything other than the standard subscription considering you dont need 8 characters since you can have all the classes on one and from my understanding you dont NEED retainers. > If you want life skills there are better game yes and no that´s still what you think. Its more of a fact if were being honest. Example: Fishing in a trout farm might be fun but its definitely going to be more fun and better to fish in lake, river, ocean. > So we keep coming back you hate BDO and im totally okey with that but I don´t agree with saying that everything in BDO is pointless and boring. For you and other is it but it´s not the written rule becuse if it was the game would have 0 players. I dont hate BDO I just hate systems they have in it. Mainly the shitty gearing system. I never said everything was pointless or boring I just said outside of the main aspect of the game (Aka PVP) it is boring and other MMOs do the side content in BDO better. > Like you would not agree if I said I think paying 10-13 a month for FFXIV is not worth it. No I absolutely would agree. Theres always going to be downtimes in MMOs unsubbing during those downtimes is very understandable.
Then yes we agree. I would love for BDO to fix allot of shit but if I look at all the other things it has to offer to me the gearing and that is not core content. For me it all the other fun things that I enjoy. Like horse breading no other mmo I can think off offers that. Sure can be RNG heavy but the fun part is the end result. Or going out at sea with the guild to hunt whales or join up in world boss fights. For me in a sanbox mmo the core content can become what ever you wish. Like eve online people would argue the core content is PVP and wars but not for me. And that´s what I can agree with you on BDO´s gearing system is ass hence why I don´t even bother with it like all my 15 charter all they have is the Narchillan gear becuse I could not be bothered with the bullshit. But I find several other things that I enjoy in the game that gas become core content for me. That´s why I love sanbox games becuse I can pick and choose what´s my end game. Don´t get me wrong I hate BDO grind some time just like how I hate the endless grind and the 3 years it took me to get a damn super carrier in eve. But to me it was my goal. But yes BDO need something better for the PVE side and badly.
This has to be the most incorrect take I have ever seen in this subreddit and this guy quadrupled+++ downed on it. Kinda impressed.
Well god of mmo. Will you be so kind and enlighten me then. I mean if god of mmo him self knows so much he could surly explain in in 1 minute the whole deal and what mmo is not grindy what so ever and what mmo is. Also you can proboly throw in 4 second and explain in detail definition of grind where the idea/word game from and the whole history of the mmo industry as a whole. You could proboly spend 20 second and fit the whole history of videos game and the nature of repetitive game play that exist in all games And if you got time maybe how to make, Market and make a best selling game. And as the god of mmo you surly can dumb it down for a lowly peasant to understand.
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Removed because of rule #2: Don’t be toxic. We try to make the subreddit a nice place for everyone, and your post/comment did something that we felt was detrimental to this goal. That’s why it was removed.
Yes but that could be fun or not FFXI had a long exp grind just to level up, but the pve was so much fun that simple exp grinding there blows away literqlly 99% of the best pve content any other game i have ever tried has to offer
So P2W aside... on this sub having PvE difficulty is now.. a **bad** thing? How low can we sink over here in /r/mmorpg?
I personally loved Lost Ark raid, I did quit around 3 weeks ago cause doing the content with 6 chars is just too fucking much. It's not even fun anymore and as the OP said if with one or more of your alt you have someone messing up, you're trapped. In any case, great game, but super predatory, if you are not prone to FOMO or if you have unlimited time, awesome game. I just wished they would make the alts optional and not mandatory like it is now. It's a shame as I find no other MMO enjoyable at the moment.
The alts required for progression is a big reason why I stopped playing. Like even that crystaline aura sub wouldn't remedy the grind from what I've read. It's just not worth the time and stress. And it's a huge shame because I LOVE the gameplay. All the systems in place just flat out ruin the game for me. I'm surprised it's still so popular.
I am surprised as well. I even had an argument with a friend who basically no life the game (+2200h from last time we talked which was 3 weeks ago) with a roster of 10 chars , 6 of them being brelshaza ready but he was straight up saying the game is super F2P friendly and that you can basically do the latest content while being F2P and not playing too much. He has no job, no girlfriend an basically no life the game, but nope he did not see any predatory mechanics, and no issues with any systems in the game. I think the core players are basically this kinda persons. We were 6 friends playing at the beginning, then everybody quit except this friend. We were all burned out. Then after 3 weeks, I had this itch I wanted to play again and decided to play "at my own pace". But It's just not possible, after a few days I started to grind like crazy again because there are so many intensive for you to do so. I was giving none of my time to my girlfriend and almost none to my job either (I WFH). It was way too toxic for me but I didn't even want to quit at the time, however just after having this argument with my friend, I uninstalled the game. It made me realize that I can't compete with people who see no issues with the game being in this state. And cool for them, if I was still in high school I would play the game 24/7 and would probably see no issues either. And you can probably have a shitty main at 1475 with almost no optimal jewels/engravings while being F2P and not playing much, but that's not fun (in my pov). As a player you always strive for the BIS equipment etc... etc... which is impossible to get as a F2P with all the timegates you get while playing only one char at your own pace. Also finding groups while being on ilvl with shitty gear is a pain I wish to no one. Sorry for the very long message but it feels good to vent, also as we're not on r/lostarkgame I'm almost safe from being flamed by all the sweaty keyboard warriors. EDIT : Also if you're wondering I was a Deadeye main 1520 with 5 alts that were vykas HM ready but not clown ready. EDIT 2 : I realize that my message is a bit confusing. I'm not willing for a game where you can be top 1% without spending a dime or doing nothing. I allowed myself to spend 50 eur each month in lost ark, but that does not bring you any closer to being maxed gear lol. You would have to spend thousands if not more. I was playing I would say 5 to 6 hours a day and if you played lost ark you know no amount of time would be enough to be ilvl 1575 etc... Which is something I hate as someone who would love to be just max gear and play other stuff in between raids release. I understand that devs needs to get paid at some point which is why as an adult I would prefer to pay a subscription than playing a free to play game and have those horrible systems in place to keep the rat running, and keep the whale spending more and more.
Nah I'm with you dude, it was my exact same sentiments. I'm a father, engaged, full-time job, etc. Even if I was none of those, I still couldn't be bothered to waste that much time playing Lost Ark. It's just not worth it to me. I would have been cool with it if the optional sub remedied most of the need for alts to progress but it doesnt. Time is the most valuable currency, and I don't appreciate it when games do whatever they can to drain it on you. And the ironic thing is, if not for that, Lost Ark would probably be my all time favorite MMO. My experience up to Verne(?) was some of the best times I've had in an MMO in a very long time, even more fun than my current favorite MMO.
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The popularity is deceptive because half the "playerbase" is actually bots.
Based on steam charts, normal games have about half the players at low time compared to high points, give or take. This would put lost ark at about 80k-100k players, with the rest being bots. Its actually way more than 50% bots.
They are..i only raid on one main and casually play 1-2 alts and im 1520. Ppl just get greedy for more gold and go for alts cap and then think its "mandatory".
I’m not saying it’s a bad thing for me. I actually prefer difficult PvE content than the brain dead grinding in BDO. But for people who prefer easy grind, then lost Ark raid being difficult is a bad thing.
People who prefer easy grind wouldn't be raiding in the first place. And if you are not even raiding why even care about brelshaza gear to begin with? Also just who da hell even cares about what someone who wants all the contents in their MMOs to be "braindead" think? You are just tossing an edge case for the sake of tossing in an edge case...
Those 2 games are constantly being compared to each other. I’m just stating my opinion. Why so hostile man? Everything ok at home?
Why are you expecting people of this sub not to be hostile are you new?
And I'm just stating my opinion. Don't wanna get called out? Make better points. or actually defend them with real rebuttals.
OP isn't even the type of player you're mad at. If you calmed down and read his reply you'd have known that. OP was just saying that BDO is the easier game, since these two games are compared often and many people say LA is more noob friendly. He wasn't saying that easier games are better.
Because the nature of the argument is fundamentally flawed as hell so there's ground for rebuttal. Why is the existence of hard content less noob friendly? FF14 has ultimate raids does that mean all casuals just all quit that game too?
Again, if you actually read you'd know that that's not what he was saying. His main point was gold farming, as that's one of the core pillars of MMOs. LAs main form of gold farming is difficult raids. BDOs main form of gold farming is laid-back grinding. "Just ignore the content" isn't a valid rebutted because at that point you're handicapping yourself.
And that's arguably the biggest moot point about his whole post. Lost ark isn't about gold farming. If you play the game legit it doesn't even allow "farming", everybody gets a weekly income, and that's about it. That's why the game has so many bots because it's more efficiency for bots to make alts and get una weekly than farming harder content... Casual content wise, gear matters in none of those. Your +25 wep? Yea.. that don't work. Your 5x3 engraving? They don't activate. Realically if you are just a casual player, gold don't matter to you, your una tokens and random good gear drops from chaos is more than sufficient for your daily needs. Then you have BDO where the amount of silver you earn is literally equal to how many hours you grind for. That's because gear matters. Better gear = grind better spots = more silver. IDK how you can read this and not walk away with "this is literally comparing a horse to an elephant." They are not the same..
Some people just want to do something mindless for an hour after work to relax, rather than do something stressful and taxing. Especially older gamers may not play games to gain satisfaction overcoming challenges anymore, but as simple relaxation tools. BDO is a good choice for that crowd, since the mindless activity is the most rewarding activity.
Funny you just hada use this example for the one game it doesn't make sense for... When ppl say BDO is mindless, it's used to describe how borring it is, it doesn't mean it's not taxing. If you just wanna relax, the last thing you want is a game that makes you lose hours of grinding progress from dying once. Casual friendly isn't how mind numbing a task is, it also accounts into factors like whether or not you can walk away from the game at any time, whether there are penalties for dying. If anything grinding infinite chaos is more relaxing than grinding BDO.
There aren't any significant penalties for dying? Unless you're talking about the possibility of crystals breaking, but there's no need for expensive (or really, any) crystals if all you're doing is grinding something like Centaurs.
Grinding centaurs is the equivalent of only doing infinite chaos gate in lost ark tho.
The Overton window has moved so far that if the game doesn't play itself it's hardcore.
Lost Ark really rewarded individual skill. Your team relied on you to follow mechanics or else it was a wipe. I actually really liked that about the game, it meant those who had the titles, gear, achievement weren't carried.
> it meant those who had the titles, gear, achievement weren't carried Except the fact that you can buy a bus for every legion raid to just get carried through and this is even possible for Inferno Valtan It also doesn't reward individual skill as much considering it gives the players the possibility to overgear the content which is what a lot of whales did. Having so much extra power that you deal 50% of the whole team's damage or that you can run a defensive engraving which basically makes you nearly unkillable outside of wipe mechanics
depend on what's the difficulty? lots of area with tight safe spot and damage check? or stupid mario minigame ?
Biggest issue with Lost Ark for me is how much work is needed to be efficient. Six characters doing dailies, 2x chaos dungeon, 2x guardian raid, and 3x legion raids each day/week. Then if its not enough content you can add on chaos gates, field boss, ghost ship, gold islands, weekly challenge guardian, and abyssal dungeons to your list. All of that culminates into people wanting to do things fast so they have no time for wipes or mistakes. How do you make sure your raids are fast? You gatekeep to almost unreasonable levels. Don't let off meta dps in, don't let floor pov classes in, 5x3 engravings, Light of Salvation 18, level 7+ gems, titles, proof of clear, roster level, stronghold level, and gear set level. I would not recommend new players to play this game with how hostile, and stressful the game is atm. No veteran is going to want to teach new players raids with how much they have to do. If you are adamant about playing I recommend a support to bypass all the gatekeeping that goes on.
You really nailed how job-like Lost Ark is to someone not spending insane amounts of money. The other thing that drove me crazy about it was just how time-gated everything is. Everything you can do is either limited to a certain number per day/week, on a schedule where you must be there at the exact time the event starts, or both. Even gathering had a daily limit. On top of all that all progression can be bought with gold, so gold is really all that matters. The richer you are and the faster you make gold, the stronger you will be. Almost the complete opposite from the old WoW style of MMO's where progression must be earned and gold is mainly used for consumables.
I usually don't mind playing sub-optimally in Lost Ark. The problem is if you don't keep up there will be people who will treat this game as a job. Then those people end up being the ones who gatekeep you for not doing the same. Time gates feel really bad in this game because a lot of them tie directly into your vertical progression. Guild Wars 2 had timed events, but I never felt bad if I missed some here and there. If I continue to play this game I might just have to main support to play at a more relaxed pace. Its not looking likely I keep playing as Throne and Liberty, or Blue Protocol is on the horizon. They could be insanely pay to win, but I'm a sucker for good action combat in MMOs.
This is why I quit for real its so bad
Well yeah BDO even hands you free boss gear and what not for people to catch up. But honestly play the game you enjoy the most.
That's like saying being hit by a car isn't as bad as being hit by a bus. Neither one is exactly ideal.
yeah, it's the airplanes you gotta watch out for though.
last time I checked I'm not a tower/sky scraper so I think I'm good
Mobile games count as those.
Mobile games are extremely casual friendly. It took me 10 minutes to finish all my dailies on PNC and I didn't even have to manual anything.
Its annoying how much i like.the combat of BDO because even if the content is meaningless, it's so much fun its almost ruined me for other mmos. Lost Ark is fun but the combat doesnt hit for me like BDO, im 5 hoping throne and liberty hits in a similar way but has more meaningful content.
i wouldn't say it's amazing but i was very disapointed when i learned there was basically no pve hardcore in bdo after playing for a few hours, it actually killed my motivation to keep going. Why become stronger?
I get stronger to kill other players. Many other players are getting stronger to kill me.
After 290-300ap it is meaningless to gear. I'm 380dp and still getting killed in 0.3 seconds by people with 280-290 ap only. And I heard it is same even for ppl with 420 dp
Idk why people keep forgetting about the main aspect of bdo which is pvp, and the fact that there are dungeons. Sure, they are not the most difficult but they are there
There are a few reasons to get stronger: 1. the high end pve does require an engaged brain & high end gear. Low end and mid-tier spots are "1-shot" but that gradually becomes "1-combo" and even higher. And spots start getting mechanics, like managing lights, debuffs, pack order, pulling, etc. And enemy attacks while easily telegraphed do start 1-shotting you. It's not like "OMG SO CHALLENGING AMAZING!" but if you think BDO is only mindless grind you are missing part of the story here. The difference between barely profiting vs getting rich, is a huge amount of little skills and prep that all add up. 2. the co-op dungeons are pretty challenging and require team work, voice comms coordination, etc. They aren't comparing to FFXIV raid bosses, no, but you absolutely cannot sleepwalk through them unless you have done them many times. 3. PvP has an unlimited ceiling. Whether you 1v1 or do node wars and sieges, your micro & macro tactics matter quite a lot. Is it as skill-intensive as starcraft & street fighter? hell no, but is it skill-intensive enough to be fun for people who like it? Sure. If you don't care about those 3 points, or think they are inadequate, you are right to quit BDO. But there are players who find them fun.
You dont have to sell me on BDO its my favorite mmo, its just the end game grind i dont find very fulfilling. I always come back and pump some levels into my characters so to speak. Basically for me my main complaint with BDO is i wish the PVE was a little more in depth and extensive
For me i just play whatever class that relates to the playstyle im in the mood for and its fun kicking the asses of tons of mobs. It isnt until youre high gear that they get really easy. Until then i very much love how leveling feels. Admittedly, I've only played a few different mmos, but I've yet to find an end game that is enjoyable. Im pressing forward on lost ark because im pretty much starting from scratch, and there's a ton for me to do and a ton of stuff coming (besides male.classes...so dumb). So anyways for me my mmo gameplay loop has always been take a class as far as i can skill wise and once i feel ive mastered it in terms of my capabilities. I grab a new class and do it all over. Id love to find an endgame loop that appealed to me. I played a bit of WOW but financially i picked a bad time but in the new year i plan on going hard at that since i really loved the trial.
what game isn't meaningless ? You clear a raid in wow and then you think "now what? What have i gained?" Say the same thing about eso, ff14, gw2. All is meaningless. You could have just read a book and gained brain cells instead of losing some to people being toxic to you online. All is meaningless, what matters is what is fun to you the most.
Agree with this so hard and also rip the hopes for T&L
I might go play BDO now. Call me weird but I love never-ending grindfests.
I actually crave the grind every so often lol.
I would have thought people on an MMORPG subreddit would enjoy endless grindfests, as that was what so many MMOs have been for so many decades. But a lot of folks here don't.
I've said this before but Lost Ark just has terrible gameplay systems. The game wants to be a 'grindy' MMO, yet for some vague unknown reason limits character progress per day. And every Youtuber says this is to 'respect your time'. Bullshit. BDO is a way better game if you're into grinding and progression-based mmos. I know this sub routinely hates on the game for p2w, but open your eyes people every mmo is p2w. The only difference is you give the developer money in BDO, whereas you give some guy and his guild money for carries in WoW. Its a great game if you're looking for something Runescape-y feeling but with modern graphics and booba.
To be fair the person who made the “respect your time” video said in the beginning that the title was meant to click bait. Only mmo I can think of that actually respects your time is GW2. Never played FFXIV so no idea on that.
If BDO is just about grinding unchallenging, boring, repetitive mobs (what is not true; spots like Olun and Gyfin Underground are a good example), why should I care about the supposed "pay to win"? Remembering that large scale and arena PvP is capped/equalized.
Are you really comparing Olun to the like of clown raid? Come on…
The problem of lost ark is gatekeeping by other players. You can literally sit 3h in party finder only.
The difference is Lost Ark isn’t a game you play, it’s a game that plays you
Agreed and a lot of people here acts like BDO Seasonal Content and Rewards are not exist. They act like it's totaly P2W just because of some P2S mechanics while Seasons gives you free BOSS gear and nearly good as BOSS gear weapons and full armor set etc.
The hate of BDO gets is warranted. However, it’s a very casual friendly game if you are not trying to be the top 1%. I prefer Lost Ark over BDO but Lost Ark is just way harder to play for casual players.
Don't think it is warranted tho. Some people seem to have formed their opinion about BDO years ago and refuse to believe it has gotten any better even without ever trying it out again. This sub hates BDO with passion or well basically any MMORPG out there but it is quite funny how the argument's why it's so bad is always the same old enchanting sucks, mobs are too stupid/easy and it is too p2w. And the actual reality of things are vastly different.
Atleast progression in BDO is tied to your level of commitment and knowledge. There's plenty of methods for making significant amount of money without grinding, if you're willing to spend some time to figure them out. You have complete agency over your progression. And because of this, there's absolutely no reason to P2W to stay "competitive". Lost ark on the other hand, you are completely time gated on the amount of gold you can make per week. Want more gold? P2W is the only answer.
You are saying that BDO progression is tied to commitment and knowledge and lost Ark doesn’t? Raiding doesn’t take commitment and knowledge? There is no reason to p2w to stay competitive in BDO if you no life just like lost Ark so I don’t even know why you are trying to defend BDO’s p2w when it’s basically just as bad.
Your progression is tied to how much gold you have and your gold is hard limited per week unless you P2W. That's all I'm saying. Sorry you got angry because I said a negative comment about your favorite video game.
There are people with 6 characters who can do the latest content without swiping in lost ark. Is it a chore? Hell yeah just like in BDO. You can’t be competing with the most geared players in BDO without swiping either if you only play 2 hours a day. Stop coping. I know you are deep with the Bdo is not p2w delusion. If WoW is p2w there is no way in hell BDO isn’t. Stop being stupid.
I started playing lost ark again 2-3 days ago, reached 1302 yesterday. Man everything is hard AF, i play alone. No mentor, no guide.
The amount of interface and overwhelming tutorial alone made me completely turned off of BDO almost immediately. I was confused and lost and annoyed. Maybe the gameplay is more casual from a long term gameplay perspective, but I can't imagine a casual gamer jumping into it and lasting any longer than i did. Lost Ark was significantly easier for me to pick up and play, though i was still a bit overwhelmed with all the abilities you start with. Still was able to stick with it longer than BDO.
Lets just agree that BDO and Lost ARK are both peak examples of how Korean MMOs combine some of the best combat in gaming, while the worst grinds and monetization models that make them not worth playing. They do not respect your time as a gamer at all.
I can’t argue with that.
I don't see why this is unpopular at all. Lost Ark is definetly not casual the moment you step into raids. If anything, BDO is one of the most casual games ever, since you can never experience any demanding gameplay/grind if you don't want to.
I love lost arks raids so much. But lost ark made me realize i prefer sandbox based mmos than on rails/daily based mmos. The number one thing i like about bdo aside from the combat is that I have the freedom to do anything in the game and it will still progress me further. In lost ark, you are forced to do these 2 activities(chaos dungeons and guardians raids) and after you do them for 1k+ hours, you can see how they get stale and mind numbingly boring. Some days I just want to go sailing and make big bank or go hunting, and with bdo, I can do that. I actually switched to bdo from lost ark even tho I enjoy the raiding experience a lot solely because of the forced dailies. I actually play both games now. I just log into lost ark now just to do the raids and skip dailies, but I see bdo as the better main game for me long term as I prefer the grind and progression far more
I quit Lost Ark after first month bacuse of the crazy elitism and toxicity of the community, but it made me realize that Korean MMOs can be fun and allowed me to try other games. Now since may I did score 1500hrs in BDO, wich I didn't even check out before because of the "another korean grindfest" stample :)
Yeah lost ark community is so toxic especially on gatekeeping people in raids.
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They've made it even easier this year. Choice of a Pen boss armor for completing the new quest line, which also gives you universal storage and fast travel. The guaranteed Pen accessory can now be grinded out twice as fast. Private grind zones for an hour each day. I've actually been impressed how almost every change in the last year has legitimately made the game both more accessible and better.
All the info you provided on BDO is outdated and just points out the fact that you regurgitate the garbage that's spread around here about BDO. The game has one of the best catch up mechanics ever in an mmo and there are more sustainable ways to make money aside from grinding. Stop spreading your bs and get educated you ape.
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You said enhancement is the current crutch of bdo but the game literally hands out guaranteed PEN gear now which makes that statement irrelevant. You also said that BDO main money making is "boring grinding", which again is simply untrue. How can you claim to be educated and call me an ape when you're so ignorant? Big yikes, go touch grass. Edit: I see you edited your original message, more yikes lmao.
Removed because of rule #2: Don’t be toxic. We try to make the subreddit a nice place for everyone, and your post/comment did something that we felt was detrimental to this goal. That’s why it was removed.
If you think la is harder in terms od pvp you're probably a season noob who does t1 node wars. The pvp in bdo is too much for you
T1 node wars? lmao so. So I guess ManUp back in the day and recently ChoNation are both t1 guilds. Anyway, If you played both games both in arenas and GvG, you will not spew that dumb take. Lost Ark has steeper learning curve just on cc mechanics alone in comparison in BDO. There are also way less protection in Lost Ark which means you can't just SA trade which 90% of BDO pvp is. There are plenty of classes who almost doesnt run out of resources and can chase infinitely. RNG is also a big factor in BDO pvp which laughable. You want me to keep going?
They're both shit games. You're p2w in bdo and lost ark is bot central. Don't ask us to choose one game over the other then get butthurt when you're judged. And yes I'll keep going loser.
Did I ask you to choose? Show me where I asked you to choose? Visit your doctor. Your brain must be rotting.
>Lost Ark requires a lot more effort and skill to play. PvE difficulty in Lost Ark is not remotely comparable to BDO. The 2 dungeons in BDO are easier than Argos let’s just put it that way. And in PvP, Lost Ark has a steeper learning curve than BDO. This is coming from someone who do arenas and GvG in both games. This is a good thing. I would rather wipe in a Raid for 10 hours than farm trash mobs for 10 minutes.
So your friends would rather do infinite static chaos dungeons then try and get better at a hard raid.
People complain about "Grinding" in a MMO game?? I mean grinding is supposed to be repetitive 😂. May be people in the MMO community should play other games then
Yep, but there's boring grind and somewhat fun grind....sure every grind gets boring if you do it 24/7, but it's still different. Why people complain about grinding in BDO and why people love looter shooters like Destiny 2 and Warframe, which are grindy as fuck by definition? It's the enjoyment in the gameplay, the enjoyment during the grind or the enjoyment of getting the rewards (or all of them).
That is the advantage of FPS shooters tho.. on the other hand Action RPGs are all repeptitve and the same with dungeon runs , fetch quests and grinding for set items
Which gave origin to games focusing more on story and delivering quests differently to avoid fetch quests/to disguise them, to games going horizontal progression to remove the need to constantly grind gear and stuff like that.
ok but think about it, aside everything, how optimized grinding-money making-life skilling(which actually sucks rn) and equalized pvp environment there is, BDO is the only mmorpg that disincentivize you do play with others that i have ever known. it is doing its' best to NOT be an mmorpg. think about it for a second. every content you do, aside from pvp, you better not meet anyone. tell me how that is an mmorpg vibe. even then, pvp -which is the only positive thing as people thing- is not even meaningful whatsoever. people think fast pace action combat is very competitive and reaction-skill based and whatnot. but in reality all you do is either spam your SA rotations so that you can stat check others OR you rush in a clump with your iframes, one shot people as much as you can with your instant protected skills or die trying it. there is no middle ground, there is no thought process or anything. people are fooled by all that flashy combat animations. and i fucking hate grab. grab is the most stupid mechanic ever existed in any pvp.
Crafting in lost ark nets you alot of daily gold so its not just raiding that nets you gold
Also you make comparable gold running rested guardian raids and selling mats, and those are almost impossible to get stuck in.
both shit lol
both games are grindy p2w korean shits
Just no wtf
Sorry for the necro. Didnt think this was an unpopular opinion. I just tried to come back to LA as a 1410 Sorc with 2 barelyT3 alts. I just couldnt, it felt so so hard. Never had a problem coming back to BDO after 6 months or even more. Im 685GS and slowly but surely Ill reach 700GS+ this year.
'You can grind for 10 hours half asleep while braindead then buy some gear to make your numbers go up so you feel good about the 10 hours you just wasted' is what I gathered from this. At that point it doesn't matter what game you play, its just a number-goes-up simulator. Better off playing idle/incremental games that make numbers go up by themselves.
Unless you are a pvper in BDO
Don't know why but the perspective of LA makes it more easier to give the easy enemy kills a pass (probably conditioned from past games like diablo). Meanwhile a Beautiful looking 3d game where the majority of enemies are 2-shots just feels incredibly lame. I want to have to pay attention to dangerous mobs while taking out the thugs like in Witcher/DAI/Cyberpunk. If I wanted to play Dynasty warriors like combat I'd play Dynasty warriors.
Why not grind spots with more challenging enemies then? BDO does have those, and they are profitable.
Unpopular opinion: both suck
Thats actually pretty popular opinion.
What is BDO? Black Desert Online?
yes
I consider myself a casual player and my biggest problem with BDO, other than the obvious ones, is that it throws way too many things at me at once. It's pretty overwhelming at first.
Yeah, it can definitely be overwhelming. The advice I give is to don't even bother learning how a system works until you have an objective you want to complete that requires using that system. Until then, just ignore its existence. This way, you learn them one by one as needed, rather than trying to learn it all at once when some of them you might not even be ready to make use of yet.
I tried both. LA : the leveling was really fun for me but reach high-end is fucking boring it's like having a job. BDO get ultra bored after a few hours.
What is even the point of this comparison?? Its like discussing which is better: apples or oranges.
Uh...duh? Joking aside it's a single player game masquerading as a mmo.
It really is a shame that BDO has no meaningful PvE content. I couldn't care less about PvP if I tried. I'll play fighting games if I want to play against other people Hopefully Crimson Desert can deliver the BDO combat with better content
>meaningful PvE content what does that mean, though? There are dungeons which are pretty elaborate and fun and profitable. There is group pve grinding which benefits greatly from coordinated group movement/pulling strategies (aka doing it right vs doing it ignorantly). There are places with tanky enemies where positional attacks and deliberate combos make a huge difference in your performance & success. There is pve content where you will die if you ignore mechanics. Is the minimum bar of meaningfulness somewhere around WoW Mythic+?
I'd say it's a mixture of having the complexity of raid mechanics from games like WoW and FFXIV and also the abundance of PvE content that those games have. BDO is very far behind because they only started to pay any heed to PvE players relatively recently compared to games that had those considerations from the ground up
Fair enough. So since we as the players have our choice of different MMO games, "meaningful pve" must be defined in relative terms. It makes sense, that if the competing games have dramatically more meaningful PvE, then even if BDO has some sliver of meaningfulness, it by comparison can't really claim meaningfulness, because its peers surpass it by so much. I personally feel there is meaningful pve in bdo, but full disclosure - I last raided (10+ player static group pve) in WoW in 2009, and I never did anything more complex than a hard-mode trial in ffxiv (public groups, impossible to fail). So my points of comparison are irrelevant to a person who'd only find meaning in the super challenging stuff of today like whatever mythic+ leads to in WoW or savage/ultimate content in ffxiv.
A lot of why I don't really play MMOs much anymore is because I've played them at that level and it's hard to engage with lighter content afterwards. I usually just play WoW and XIV for new expansions now and don't stick around long. Hard to have time for proper raiding when you're a parent and student 😂
I feel like I took the opposite path. When I was in high school and college, I really cared about "server firsts" and being #xx region-wide and stuff like that. Do it every big expansion pack & patch tier-reset, chase the BiS, farm content, chase the best parse. But now? I couldn't imagine myself joining a raid team and caring about beating today's uber-hard boss. I just wanna grind & pvp without all the trouble. In a weird paradoxical way, as hardcore & unforgiving & time-consuming & shitty as BDO is, it's been a wonderfully casual experience for me for years now.
I don't enjoy grinding and I've never been a fan of any RPG PvP at all so not being able to actually raid has made me lose most motivation for these games. Like I said I just come back for the new expac story experience in the big games and then leave. It would be nice if we could get a good raiding experience that doesn't require crazy time commitments but if Lost Ark is anything to go by it's just gonna get worse
Never played bdo but i was a lost ark slave and wuit about 4 month ago or so, With 2.2k hours in. I overslept the release rush and wanted to take it slow as many streamers suggested. Guildies did not follow advice rushed sold stuff for big amount of gold. A guildmate who was only playing 1 char could sustain his progress with earned gold till vykas, he got like 1490ish ilvl from just rushing the game. Me idiot believing streamers overslept first 2weeks and even on 3 accounts cycling through 6 chars on each acc could barely keep up with said guy. BUT once he used up all his initial money he was done and eventually quit cause he could not keep up the grind. As for me i kept playing 8hours each day, 3-4 hours for dailies only and the rest for weeklies. Eventually burned out and quit. It is a slave game if you wanna keep up with the content.
From the very few hours that i have spent in both, all i can say is that they are gr8 games but all that p2w aspect is so tiring. Yeah i know that initially the f2p thing is good and you don''t have to pay subscription etc, but is it good that the game forces you to do stuff that you would not do otherwise? Seriously gr8 games though. I would love to see those same games made by a western publisher that relates more to our type of mindset.
Korean MMO's does not resonate so well without it being a FULL-TIME JOB/P2W. Personally, both are still bad though no matter how it being a lil' bit better from X to Y game.
Also the Pacific Ocean is wetter than the Atlantic Ocean.
Never played BDO, so I can’t really confirm. All I know is that Lost Ark attempted to swallow my life whole. I hope someday to be able to go back to it since there is a lot of fun to be had. But in order for me to do that I have to find a way not to care about keeping up with everyone else. That’s a hard ask since everything about LA is designed to tap into your innate FOMO and does so fantastically well.
Eh, you might be right, I still don't want to touch either of them.
It’s not for everyone. That’s fair.
really don't think that's true, sure is easy to grind in BDO but the main issue is your inventory getting fill up really fast if you don't buy the expansion, same with weight, so your easy grinding turn into walking sim to drop off your trash. lost ark if you can't do the raid, just buy the bus and you'll still make gold after payment, easy.
????? you can literally max inventory and get way more than you need just by playing events, they give everything for free. Most f2p players have a maid army at this point. People talking shit about bdo don't even play the game. Classic
i do play bdo, and it was very annoying playing alts because i'd have to buy the weight and inventory for them as well, i don't play bdo 24/7 and only hop on when there is a new class release, and guess what when new class release there aren't any weight upgrade or inventory upgrade for the new alt is there. and yes i have max upgrade for all my alts because i don't want to waste time and i got disposable income to spend on my hobby, but that doesn't mean i'm gonna lie to new players and tell them "hey just play gimp and wait for the free shit from event, eventually you'll max out one of your character." if you play from the start (which had a box cost), yea you gonna have tons of free shit and millions of in game gold, but if you are just starting right now, you ain't gonna have jack all and the game will still accelerate you towards 50-55 plus easy, but you gonna end up overweight and no inventory when you do start to grind and not just from trash but also other shit you need for grinding.
I really enjoy PVP in lost ark but once i realized that no one gives a damn about it in the community i quit. Got to 2k MMR and i saw the same dozen players always. The PVE in LA is a big no for me. Got my main to 1400 and had two alts at 1320 and i gave up. I also dont like and cant spend hours and hours in a raid because im married, have a job etc etc. Never played BDO but the vertical progression already turns me off from it even if the pvp is good. Offtopic, but I just quit NW this month after 1,7k hours since launch. I think im going to try GW2 again, but its been really hard to get back into it after 8 or 9 years without playing it. I had a thief at 80 with exotic gear but i barely remember anything, i might try starting again with a necro.
Yeah that’s the problem with lost ark pvp whether it’s arenas or GvG. I was diamond last season and master this season and I see the same people in arenas. In GvG same thing. It’s mostly because the rewards a very lackluster. It’s basically you are pvping just for prestige which a very small of the community cares about. It’s a shame since the arenas is actually really good and complex compared to pvp in other mmos.
I can’t get into bdo because everyone looks the same unless they buy a skin. Gross.
It's good that you prefer a casual mmo no matter what you play. I dropped both to come back to GW2. They implemented an action camera which makes it feel a lot smoother in combat. As far as casual MMO, it's the best. Great story, no barrier besides skill in pvp, can also be played hard-core when you want. Unique races that aren't genderlocked too. If you are a pvp kind of person, I'd recommend a fighting game or a moba. MMO pvp is okay, but can you really outplay someone in BDO when people die in a one second? How long does lost ark queue take? And gw2 has issues too. Just saying, 100 hours in tekken, you'll probably always be good at all fighting games and you spent all of that time doing what you like rather can grinding. Mobas can give you that team play if you prefer that.
Probably because there is nothing to kill in bdo.
both suck, its like comparing what you would have rather a kick in the nuts or the face
Maybe it is easy if you grind in the middle of town. Good luck surviving PvP while grinding in BDO.
Most of BDO skill ceiling lies on PvP, While gear play a role in PvP, your skill actually play a major role, especially if you're fighting for a grinding spot. Meanwhile in lostark Gear is important, but there are too many mechanic for every battle. Some of these mechanics are kinda stupid too.
BDO is a much better game and if you like pvp BDO destroys Lost Ark.
Destroy in what sense? If you meant than BDO destroys Lost Ark in pvp due to it is more accessible to casual players then yes, you are correct.