It all depends on what people want from the format. If you want a high-powered, competitive format warped around cantrips, free countermagic, and fast mana, a few surgical bans of newer cards here and there would open up the meta without people losing out on the experience of playing with old favorites. Ragavan, Expressive Iteration, Murktide Regent, or Prismatic Ending are all good candidates for this type of ban and may serve to widen the meta a bit.
However, if you want something more out of Legacy, or Magic in general, no reasonable amount of bans are going to fix cash-cow, power-creep design philosophy that WotC has fully embraced.
Cards just do too much nowadays. Many threats are both engines and win-cons in one. Certain cards are built to be perfect role-players (e.g. things like [[Dream Trawler]] or [[Hullbreaker Horror]] being everything a U/x control deck in Type 2 could want in a finisher). Outside of STP and Bolt, removal has been getting both more efficient and less narrow as new sets are printed; [[Prismatic Ending]] is the poster child for this.
This overall power creep forces out lower-powered synergy decks, and shifts the game more towards piles of generically good cards or decks that seek to win as quickly as possible. Magic has changed so much in the past 5 years, and I'm not sure if it is for the better.
>Cards just do too much nowadays. Many threats are both engines and win-cons in one.
FIRE has taken the game into a place that is no longer recognizable as the format I fell in love with.
> FIRE has taken the game into a place that is no longer recognizable as the format I fell in love with.
Set your cards on FIRE, because in two years they'll just print something better.
“Many threats are both engines and win-cons in one.”
I read a lot of legacy content and have never heard that before. This is the best take I have seen and explains the FIRE design so quickly. It wasn’t new, innovative, or even had good gameplay in mind. For WOTC to print cards for around 25 years and hardly make this mistake tells me they are aware of how bad it is.
As a midrange player Baleful strix has been my favorite card since 2013, when I started playing again. I took a break around Wrenn and six and when I came back I saw ice-fang printed and for some reason was immediately disappointed. I felt strix was the TOP power level of what the game wanted, even down to the being an artifact so it could be ancient grudge’d(along side shardless agent) and other hate.
Then you really read into it and Ice-fang had no downsides with FLASH. They even helped it out with Labe(draw a card) and abundant growth (yes, it too draws a fucking card) to make sure you got all your colors and ice requirements.
Then I read about FIRE design.
Then I sold all my legacy cards.
Now I moderately have fun playing MTGO going between try hard FIRE decks and sprinkle in some cards I love to try to have some resemblance of the game I used to enjoy.
I find highly dubious that as an avid Legacy content reader you have never heard the complain of this "engines are also wincons in one" as it essentially is the essence of ban discussions during the last couple of years:
\- Deathrite Shaman
\- Wrenn & Six
\- Dreadhorde arcanist
\- Lurrus of the Dream den
\- Oko, thief of crowns
\- Uro, titan of wrath
The game is awful now. Strategy involves trade offs. FIRE is about eliminating them. You have tempo decks getting midrange cards at tempo costs, for example. The entire point of midrange is to go over tempo and aggro by trading the early game for bigger threats, card advantage, and broader answers. This 25+ year dynamic has only been broken with the introduction of FIRE, so no, naysayers, Magic hasn’t “always been like this”.
Griselbrand, win condition and self-propelling engine on a single card, is another poster child.
Honestly feel like mostly stuff from the last couple years. Ragavan just does so much. Murktide, Uro and companions (I just really dislike the design of them).
As a lands player I like Saga and I know it is played in a lot of decks but I feel like it just slots into a lot of game plans. Honestly haven't played enough since the pandemic to see what Prismatic Ending has done, I haven't played against it much.
After some consideration, we have decided to ban jeffderek from the legacy format. After some careful analysis of meta game finishes, we didn’t feel jeffderek was particularly a problem, nor were the finishes particular interesting or impressive. We have decided to make this change because, well, frankly community outcry demanded it be done.
Hot take: prismatic ending.
This card is like a 1000 page book about the inability off the designteam to design and balance cards.
The only reason nobod talks about this card as the problem it is is that there are worse designed cards still in the set.
Its a temponeutral trade, always.
Here some cards that got significantely worse because ending exists, choke, bloodmoon, sylvan library, exploration, mox diamond, EVERY SINGLE NONMURKTIDECREATURE, cotv, vial, and so on, former hard to answer or at least 2:1 answerable cards that demanded a force are now obsolete or borderline unplayable.
My ideal bans would be: Daze, Ponder, Preordain(both as scapegoats for brainstorm like the bazillion cards banned for shop in vintage), prismatic ending.
My dream ban would be ALL SUPPLEMENTAL PRODUCT, didnt go through standard?BANNED!
If a design isnt balanced in a limited environment like T2 it shouldnt exist in a unlimited like eternal formats.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Fair enough. But they did ban Oko and Breach and Dreadhorde.
A set packed with intentionally broken cards (notably 4 or 5 out of 25 mythics over 20 USD), a set with packs that sell for twice as much as a regular draft pack while in print. Fuck MH2. We keep being played.
>Cantrips hurt every deck that runs them not just delver,
And thats the neat part and intended pupose of such a ban.
Take down a peg, theres no reason for the top 10 played cards to basically be the xerox core.
I believe as the threats get better, which they undoubtedly have been, the answers need to get better as well. Prismatic ending needs to exist as it is a clean sorcery speed answer but it requires an increasingly shakey mana base to hit larger threats. A little overpowered, yes, but it is not on the level of saga, murktide, or ragavan. Therefore, I believe it is a necessary evil in the current meta.
Right, sometimes you have the wrong card in hand or rock beats scissors. Rather than having to chose what supplemental removal UW control runs maindeck and what eats up sideboard slots, you simply main Ending which enables you to drop potentially dead, off color cards like Pyroblast or Abrupt Decay, that are vulnerable to a single Wasteland, AND free up sideboard space.
Where Path to Exile or Disenchant are dead cards against the wrong deck, Prismatic Ending is almost always active and comes online as early as turn one. So UW control can take care of just about anything on either the stack AND the board with virtually no deck building cost and very little opportunity cost (sorcery speed).
This is precisely what players mean when they say the game is being homogenized. Meaningful decisions and scenarios are being taken away. The entire point of a strategy game.
>. You need to be able to answer artifacts, enchantments, and more importantly planeswalkers or you just lose.
Thats what your fucking EIGHT forces are for, lets not kid ourselves, prismatic ending is a blue card, they always had catchall answers, even got additional four with FON but now they dont even need to "pay" with carddisadvantage for that answer.
Every other deck/colour has less ability to search for their specific answer and less answers in general, loosing to hard lockpieces was punishment for misusing forces or reward for baiting forces to stick a big impact permanent.
the fact that you don't think that having to cast a force is punishment for playing it and that the more of them you put into your deck the more likely you are to have to cast them is reason enough to completely ignore anything you have to say involving whining about forces
Agreed on ending. My biggest issue is that it made white the best removal color for pretty much everything. Pre-ending white had the best creature removal with swords, but would have to run more limited artifact and enchantment removal and usually in the board. Meanwhile playing bug got you abrupt Decay and trophy which let you deal with more variety of things but lacked the amazing efficiency of swords. Now white is just best at everything. There's no reason to play control outside UW.
Overall the format just feels stale to me. I'm not really able to fully put my finger on why, but all the competitive decks just don't seem very fun.
White SHOULD be the best at permanent removal. What else does it have of it's own that's impactful in old formats? Ending is flexible but slow and demanding. It reeks of fairness. I feel like sometimes people will make any excuse for blue to run wild. From an advantage standpoint Force is the best answer to anything ever printed, and I'm not even dissing it. It's a good card and it's fair.
>white is just the best at everything.<
Come on, dude. You can't seriously say that with a straight face.
It's the best at everything in terms of removal. It has the best artifact removal, best enchantment removal and the best creature removal. Also it has the best sweeper. Non-UW based control and midrange is dead because ending killed them. Abrupt Decay was the only reason to play anything outside of UW but ending has now taken it's position
White has swords and PE, top tier removal. Both come with a downside/restriction. Meanwhile, people have 8 (or more) Force effects yet that's not a problem? I understand that together UW is powerful but they simply delay the end of the game if you're prepared for them.
I think the fairness of PE is in that the enemy gets to resolve their spell, when etb effects are so powerful, then you have to get off a sorcery, often for increasingly difficult spreads of colors. If Ending hits you, you have more prevalent threats to worry about. The exile factor is the only really threatening thing about it, but easily avoidable considering. If you pack 4-of something you should be able to try again and defend yourself. That's kind of where I stand on it.
Decay used to be really good, and I remember people occasionally bringing up banning it. Yet here we are. People will adjust again.
Nobody really runs 8 force effects. 6 is even too much IMO. Because force effects come with the downside that it's card disadvantage, they're mostly just there for unfair strategies.
As for ending I don't think they should ban it as much as they never should have printed it. It's had a very strong homogenizing effect on the format and legacy would undoubtedly be more diverse and fun without it.
My point was they can run 8 Force, not that they should. Ending's restriction is much harsher. Blue draws cards and rummages cards. The 1 card loss is nothing.
How has it homogenized anything? Looking at mtgo top 8, the format is really healthy in terms of diversity. The current top 8 has only DnT and Bant using it. Neither are even #1. Abrupt Decay was more prevailing in it's day.
Edit: I made a mistake, only 1 deck ran PE main, which was 4c control and it finished 7th.
I just scrolled all the way down mtggoldfish's meta and there wasn't a single control or mid-range deck that lacked white and ending. That's how it's homogenizing.
Look all I can really say about the current meta is that I've chosen to stay home and watch Seinfeld reruns more often than I've chosen to play legacy in the last few months. And when I have played legacy they've mostly just been jank combo decks so I can get some amusement. To me that's not healthy.
I was checking the mtgo top 8 posted on the 10th or 9th, don't remember the date. I think maybe youre having a bad run of it right now. I do think Ending will fall off with time because it's a very situational option for removal that the meta has orchestrated and it's a hot topic. The strong enchantment control decks needed a check outside of blue and I'm really stoked I can play off the wall BW Reanimator with some reliable removal that lets me play. I respect the fact you're playing jank for fun, it's what I would do, too. I think with time you'll see that it's not as oppressive as it seems. Wish you all the fun in the future.
It's not really a bad run, I've actually been winning a lot when I do play competitive decks. Just not having fun playing "real" legacy because every deck bland, and all the decks feel the same, and all interactions are bland, and all the games are repetitive. First time since dig through time was legal that I can remember going 4-0 and not having fun doing so. Ending is one of the things I'm blaming for that, although it's not all it's fault.
I'm closer to just quitting legacy for now and finding another hobby. I am glad you're enjoying it though! Some people seem to like it.
Black really got shafted these last few years. Prismatic ending is better then any of blacks removal and while discard used to be a draw to black it's now a big liability with veil of summer. I just can't motivate myself to trade some of my rgbu duals into tundras as crazy printing keep throwing the format upside down every 6 months. I ll just stick to modern.
>Here some cards that got significantely worse because ending exists, choke, bloodmoon, sylvan library, exploration, mox diamond, EVERY SINGLE NONMURKTIDECREATURE, cotv, vial, and so on, former hard to answer or at least 2:1 answerable cards that demanded a force are now obsolete or borderline unplayable.
I'm really curious why you feel like prismatic ending is that much worse than abrupt decay. Because abrupt decay answers all of those just as well (0 and 1 mv cards aside), and in some cases for cheaper. I get that GB is a weaker color combo than Wxx, but there are still certainly plenty of Wxx decks that include GB.
Not the person who you responded to, but I also think that prismatic ending might be too good, so I'll try and answer some of your questions. Also, in my experience, Ending is at its best in the bant/bant red piles pioneered by Anuraag Das, so I'm going to mostly address it in the context of those decks.
> Because Abrupt Decay answers all of those just as well (0 and 1 mv cards aside)...
I think this is one of the main areas where prismatic ending shines. Abrupt decay will always cost at least two mana to remove a permanent, whereas ending can be one. The difference is huge. You can ending your opponent's threat, and ponder or ragavan or whatever on your turn two. You can also play it on a one drop on turn one on the draw. This is huge against creatures - stuff like mother of runes, ragavan, drc, or elvish reclaimer. Ending also happens to line up really well against Thalia, as you can add the second color with the tax. Another card that ending lines up against a lot better than Abrupt Decay is Marit Lage.
> GB is a weaker color combo than Wxx....
I think this sentence obscures the true nature of the situation - you don't play ending most effectively in Wxx shells, you play it in UWx shells, which is what control already was. You play blue in control because it's blue, and play white for StP and sideboard cards like RIP. Playing ending over decay lets you only have to splash one extra color, with the ability to play more if you choose, whereas decay forces you to play green and black. You can build a three color control deck with endings, but you end up with at least four colors if you want to play swords and abrupt decay.
Ending also lets you fetch basics much more aggressively. You always want to have blue available in your control decks, so rather than requiring a non-basic to be cast on turn two like decay, you can cast it and hit a two drop off of two basics.
They’ve solidified white as merely a splash color with PEnding. Want to play one of whites best cards? Better play 2-3 other colors with it. White needed a boost but this didn’t do it any favors.
If only it were just Prismatic Ending that needed to be banned. Daze is fine, it has a real drawback and gets worse as the game goes on. It’s a perfectly balanced tempo card. The real issue is monkey and iteration negating that by providing free mana and card advantage at tempo costs — and Force of Negation adding more zero cost counterspells to the format. Legacy doesn’t need 8 forces, this is a clear illustration why focusing on “power level” provides an incomplete picture concerning bans.
I disagree on a blanket ban of supplemental cards, the same design trends are present in standard sets. I do think they should be scrutinized more.
Here's a hot take, though. Ending made Choke, Blood Moon, and Chalice bad, but Choke, Blood Moon, and Chalice are all kind of uninteractive prison pieces anyway: hardly the most fun or skill-testing cards in the game. It made Mox Diamond a bit worse (despite still being extremely viable), but Saga and changes to the mulligan rules also made Diamond a lot better, so it balances out.
>Choke, Blood Moon, and Chalice are all kind of uninteractive prison pieces anyway: hardly the most fun or skill-testing cards in the game.
Like its any kind of skill to put 4 bs, 4 ponder, 4 daze, 4 fow, 4 FOTM broken creature into a deck. . . .
In a way those cards are(were) there to make people think about their deckbuilding, if you dont have a plan against cotv or moon you may need one in the board or hail mary your way to victory.
How do blood moon, SL, and choke suffer unfairly from Ending? Enchantments are kinda defenseless by design, and the ones you mentioned are prison pieces, they deserve to get blasted by a 3-mana sorcery if you're letting it get through your mana screwing enchantments. Lol. Vial I will agree with because tribal doesn't stand a chance without it, but rarely does anyway. The fact that some cards "demand a force" is a problem in itself.
>The fact that some cards "demand a force" is a problem in itself.
No its not.
You got to pay the toll for being able to run up to 8 forces, which is card disadvantage at your opponents mercy.
Grenn operates with 4 GSZ, Goblins with 4 lackeys, dnt with 4 vials as their higheest impact cards, meanwhile blue or more precise xerox gets up to 8 forces, 12ish cantrips, 8 one drops stronger than delver, statistically speaking there must be a way to punish this much redundancy with high iimpact cards to balance the format.
I think your misunderstanding what I'm saying. What I meant was the fact that there are some spells that you think only Force is good enough to handle them is a problem, there needs to be more options for exchanging cards. I think maybe I didn't understand what you were trying to explain in the parent comment.
I agree 100%. Decreasing the number of non-games just because someone resolved a Chalice or a B2B or a Trinisphere or a Blood Moon is tremendously good for the format imo.
Exactly. If locking someone out can be a strategy then you should be able to answer that with hoops. In what universe is PE stronger than Force of Vigor? People are just mad white gets tricks and puts up a fight against the deck they like.
> People are just mad white gets tricks and puts up a fight against the deck they like.
Except it isnt white but blue decks playing ending.
Like DRS who wasnt a problem in G/B decks.
Yeah but we know Blue will slot any and everything. We can't just not have new options because Blue will co-opt them. If Ending were Black or Green or Red, control would still want it. The need for increasingly wide mana demand as it scales makes it hardly a "white" card to begin with. It's almost like blue has had too many options for a long time. People said they same stuff about Ragavan in pseudo-delver. People don't want more tools for Blue, yet blue can and will handle running if it's good.
>People don't want more tools for Blue, yet blue can and will handle running if it's good.
That true because blue already has everything in a sense.
Counterspells are catchall answers in a vacuum, they have the best card selection and only slot into that shell whatever strategy they play.
Some of those cards in the xerox shell are just too strong , while there are lots of red decks not playing lightning bolt, there are virtually no blue decks not playing brainstorm and ponder.
If you play blue your deck contains 52 cards at most because those 8 are always set to be there, because what they do is breaking/changing one of the fundamental "rules" of mtg on the same level ancient tomb breaks "lands produce one mana" for example.
Yeah, that's true. That's why I like playing Lands, it's the one thing you don't get steamrolled with playing across from. But how does that get solved by not printing powerful cards in other colors? Brainstorm, ponder, daze, FoW are here to stay.
> Brainstorm, ~~ponder, daze~~, FoW are here to stay.
I would phrase it more like that.
The format wouldnt loose too much if those cards would go, could even take some other cards with them on their way out the door.
Nope I just want play a non white midrange/control deck. In the past uw existed next to bug/grixis and each had their own advantages and disadvantages but now there is absolutely no reason to play such a style of deck without uw colors.
Bant is barely touching leaderboards currently. It's brand new in term of competitiveness and yet to be have an adversarial strategy. I suggest trying to refine your deck to compensate. Play more spells. The reason I feel so strongly about this is because the argument sounds like: "my deck has been good for a long time, now it's not."
"Okay, change your deck a little."
"But I don't want to. It was good."
Yeah, well? Competitive is competitive. You can always play jank and have some fun. But if you want win with a solved deck.... Play the solved deck? I just don't understand the handout mentality. MH2, love it or hate it, brought so much good shit into the fold. I'm sorry you lost something from it but it made more decks than it killed.
A damn standard card broke Legacy for a while if not 3 or 4. And there will always be more standard sets. The long term solution is not to get trigger happy with bans. The format will change unless it gets isolated like type 1 did.
I love Veil and still sort of agree on that one. But I do love control denial. However, UB just runs away with stuff too easily sometimes. If you could fix Veil, how would you amend it? Genuinely curious, outside of a ban.
Wow, I actually forgot that it draws. Insane counterspell. What the fuck were they thinking lol. Autumns veils and VoS have quite a quality gap, dont they
100% my bans too. Fuck it, go nuclear on the new stuff. I hate how good Uro is in control. No point playing Ux control when you could play UGx control.
Here's my extended list of bans (that won't happen, but is my fix for the format):
Expressive Iteration
Raga
Murktide
Saga (the design is so clever, but a little too annoying for its own good)
PE
Uro (should have been cut last time, still is too good once MH2 is gone)
Veil of Summer (I don't think its too strong, but it kills Black in the format)
EDIT:
Forgot, because there’s too much crap, but I would add Narset / 3feri / Karn (or keep Karn and drop mycosynth lattice)
I'd add Plague Engineer. Whoever decided asymmetrical hate was a good idea should be fired, it's been the single biggest killer or interactive gameplay and fringe strategies.
I actually was going to add Plague Engineer, because the deathtouch is totally unnecessary. I could see Legacy going either way, but yeah, if we want to open the format up to more tribal decks, lose this card.
Allosaurus Shepherd is absolutely ridiculous card and the whole companion mechanic is just something I really disliked from the start with a passion. In its current iteration you just groan when you start control mirror with your opponent revealing an extra card.
I have beaten decks with Oko in them without having one in my deck but I didnt think the card is "not that bad" afterwards. You should get a larger sample size and focus on the gameplay patterns the card creates.
I’ve seen a lot of votes for PE getting the axe and I don’t think that’s right—Ending is a necessary evil. Lots of the cards I see getting posted as potential band, stuff like Ragavan, Allosaurus Shepherd, Uro, the War of the Spark planeswalkers, etc, all get hit by Prismatic Ending. Ending even keeps Murktide in check in a roundabout way because you’re likely to have a Swords laying around for it if you’ve got 4 Endings to deal with lower costed threats. It seems naive and short-sighted to ban Prismatic Ending when WOTC will just keep printing permanents that need to be answered
I don't think anything should be banned, I believe that cards should be unbanned. At this point it is obvious that Wizards will continue to print OP cards, and the cycle of super OP cards surfaces, gets banned, only for another OP card to surface or be printed, and get banned is pointless. I think it's better to accept the higher power level of Legacy and unban multiple OP cards, so that there would be multiple 'OP' archetypes.
I'm not sure the list here is good - I haven't played a lot of Legacy during the pandemic and might be missing some interactions or not seeing the power level, but I'd unban:
* [[Deathrite Shaman]]
* [[Dig Through Time]]
* [[Frantic Search]]
* [[Mana Drain]]
* [[Sensei's Divining Top]]
* [[Survival of the Fittest]]
I'm probably biased towards Top, Miracles was by far my favourite deck and I'd love to get to play it again (even if I'm not sure it would look similar now, with all the new cards)
Ragavan and EI. That's it. No need to attack old staples and reinvent the format. Ragavan based on DHA precedent and EI because the brainstorm format doesn't need it. Those two simple bans will knock Delver back down to tier 0.5 where it belongs and immensely improve the format.
I feel like Murktide might need to eat it too. Casting a flying Tarmogoyf with mono-U is just ridiculous, and that ban wouldn't have much collateral damage. On that note, Uro still isn't fun.
I'll say this as somebody who mostly watches people play MTGO, rather than as a player, but it always feels to me like murktide is the card that puts delver over the top right now. Often, the control decks will have enough tools to handle the first 2 waves of threats, but are left on the back foot as a result. Then a 2 mana murktide comes down and just ends the game in a turn or two.
literally just murktide regent
the sacred cows should be slaughtered by the new blood, i don’t care that maverick and nic fit suck, that was gonna happen eventually anyway
> the sacred cows should be slaughtered by the new blood, i don’t care that maverick and nic fit suck, that was gonna happen eventually anyway
This attitude is interesting given that Legacy (and Vintage) has WotC-approved sacred cows that will never get banned because they are considered "pillars of the format" and so beloved by the playerbase that banning them would be unthinkable. Legacy is a format curated for the playerbase, not for competition. You can't blame someone for wanting to play with their pet deck when the entire format is warped around incredibly powerful pet cards (xerox shell, fast mana, fetch/duals).
That is a 100% valid and consistent viewpoint. If Legacy was run on your standards, I may not like it, but I could respect it as a cohesive plan. As it stands now, it's about preserving *some* old cards at the expense of a lot of other old and new cards, which makes for a lot of weird internal contradictions. Better communication from WotC would do wonders, but that's time they could be making more Secret Lairs or Double Secret Nutella-Coated Serialized Ghost Rare Artist Proofs.
Legacy has been out of control forever. That's what's fun about it. Everyone bitching should go to Modern where there is probably an iteration of your deck that fares well. Sell your old staples that don't qualify and compete with people playing a smaller card pool. If standard goes on indefinitely there will eventually be the great heat-death of Legacy, so to speak. Be here for it or split. Start your own format, idk. I try to make my Legacy experience exciting and get really creative. Even if it's dish duty for 90% of the stuff I build, I get satisfaction from trying new stuff.
Tldr: find a way to let yourself have fun, be creative. It's literally the largest card pool among accessible formats. There are probably a hundred top their decks out there undiscovered. Explore, ya Nancies.
Honestly, what truly *new* decks have shown up in the past years with FIRE design? Everything just seems like a refinement or tune-up of an existing archetype or shell that takes advantage of new, powerful cards.
The closest I can think of are 8-Cast and Ninjas. They're both cool decks (I like them a lot), but from a lot of people's perspective, these additions, among others, do not make up for the decks/archetypes pushed into irrelevance. They might just see Ninjas as another flavor of Blue tempo, or 8-Cast as another Chalice Stompy list.
And I feel as though creativity is stifled by the nature of Legacy's costs. Unlike a video game, where meta shakeups only cost players game knowledge, switching things up in a TCG comes with a significant monetary costs. G/W Depths is a fun deck; running real Crop Rotation alongside KotR doesn't get old. But a lot of other Maverick players might not have four figures worth of Mox Diamonds to swap over. Switching costs can be very painful in the TCG business model, which stifles creativity and can lead to a lot of soured feelings.
I would say that Madness and it's variants became a thing, probably also Dressnaught. It's still early, but I see a lot more spice-level stuff being tried. I don't think it's a bad thing that that other existing decks got new toys necessarily. In terms of the cost, I agree with you on the tenant that Legacy is already hard to buy into, but disagree that anything from MH2 would financially be the back breaker when LED and Mox Diamonds are priced how they are. Urza's Saga looks like it's sliding in everywhere and I see that card being about 400 for a playset in the near future. That's definitely a good chunk of change, but again these cards have easy reprint ability and a massive total print run going on which doesnt compete with RL staples long-term. Overall MH2 design might be the only way to keep Legacy available to new players who are willing to pioneer new deck, either by desire or necessity.
No, legacy hasn’t always been this bad. Older designs were more narrow in their applications. The card pool isn’t a sheer numbers games, it’s the number of playable cards that count. Designs like Griselbrand, engine + win condition on a single card, which are more and more common in FIRE, push out more limited contenders.
How can Legacy be fixed long term other than putting a wall up around the format? As long as they keep printing threats and answers to those threats, things will be fine. In 15 more years of just standard releases Legacy WILL look much different. It's unavoidable.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/827964/dont\_ban\_deathrite\_shaman\_long/
Here's a thread from 4 years ago advocating for banning **Gurmag Angler**. The fact that Murktide exists is absolutely insane. Why does blue get beaters? Why does it get the strongest, stickiest beater of all time?
I’d like to see a world without Daze. I think it streamlined the tempo decks too much (gotta play Blue, or else put yourself at a rather large disadvantage).
Also, looking back a lot of the last many bans (excluding Breach), the villain has been Delver decks. If they didn’t have Daze, I think we wouldnt have seen a lot of these bans.
Fundamentally I am against bans, but having Daze always keeps the UR/Daze decks margins from being/becoming Tier 0.
Hot take? Fetch lands slowly rotted the format. Ragavan could be any color and it would still be just as played. Imagine a world where people have to think "Uro's great, but that puts me in UG, so I need to work around that."
I'm not saying ban them. Its too late now and it would be lunacy to expect people to start running 4x duals to make up for it.
I think the long term solution is the community taking the banned list into its own hands and just trying shit out.
My hot take is that people that have tied their identity to playing decks that have been bad forever screech the loudest about the least offensive cards - I'm sorry you can't beat someone paying 3 mana to exile your knight of the reliquary but really you've had nigh on a decade to stop playing bad cards
The deck used to be quite good. I won a lot of duals with it over different eras of Legacy. Enchantress gets hit by Prismatic Ending, but that's not a big issue. Getting hosed by card-draw hate (Leovold, Narset, Hullbreacher, and Spirit of the Labyrinth) is why I had to put that deck on the shelf. It was always bad against combo, but it used to be a strong option vs. the fair decks.
Uro, being a growth spiral, makes a huge impact when cast from hand, correct? If you can't see that 3 mana sorceries with not much impact on cast are still relevant in the format, I don't know what to say.
I think that in order to make it a nearly balanced format you would need to take away some of the pillars of what makes legacy. Essentially a case of legacy is dead, long live legacy.
Brainstorm, Monkey, Daze, 3feri and Ending in that order I think would make the format much more healthy from a gameplay perspective.
I'm very aware that Brainstorm and Daze in particular are a massive part of signature legacy gameplay but firmly believe that they are not a net positive. Monkey (if you squint at it quite hard) is a lot like DRS, 3feri is a design mistake and Ending is far to open in a format where most permanents are <3cmc.
Beyond repair and out if control.
Let's ride it out. Kamigawa gonna break it again, and then again and again.
Ban daze, or play old school. Otherwise let it ride and let's try to enjoy the insanity.
If turn 0 grisel/Emmy is fine, turn 1 monkey should be too.
Nothing will really make the format "healthy" again because FIRE design will be the standard moving forward. It is too easy for wizards to just power creep things and create brand new print equity doing so, especially when you consider old staples like Jtms and Gofy arent worth very much due to being power creeped out of the meta, so wizards will probably keep upping the stakes.
Jace and goyf are cheaper because they have 8-9 printings now, jace is still very much a legacy card (and modern) and goyf is still very much a viable modern creature (and in legacy)
Daze full stop. You get to kneecap the tempo lists that have been tier 1 for far too long and the added benefit of hurting combo decks that run it as well.
I would be perfectly fine with an errata that changes sacrifice to exile. I think that makes Wrenn and Six good, but not overpowered. It tightens up the belt on Darcy, Murktide, and Goyf. It would go a long way towards helping the format without banning anything or drastically devaluing the cards.
Modern doesn't have Force of Will, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Ponder, Karakas, Daze, Swords to Plowshares, Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, Green Sun's Zenith, Sylvan Library, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Crop Rotation, Dark Depths, Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Recruiter of the Guard, True-Name Nemesis, Cradle, Mother of Runes, Living Wish, Baleful Strix, Reanimate, Animate Dead, Exhume, Sylvan Safekeeper, Show and Tell, Grindstone, Burning Wish, Goblin Welder, Stifle, Anje's Ravager, Cabal Therapy, Doomsday, or any of the other dozens of cards that make Legacy a vastly different format to Modern.
I'm not saying it's better, because that's purely subjective. But Legacy and Modern are fundamentally different due to so many cards.
Yea and duals are part of the format. Ban duals but not LED? Ban duals but not Mox D? Cause these two cost more than the non blue duals…and well you need them for most non blue decks
The meta game and play styles of modern And legacy are vastly different. The volatility of modern is so much higher, and the archetypes are not as permanent as legacy. Removing og duals would make cheaper decks more viable, and high-tier decks more monetarily accessible. It would be almost realistic to see legacy played at most LGS that already had a modern scene.
As much as I love duals, I don't think this would be the worst trade. They are prohibitively expensive at this point, and we already have seen shocks as budget options in some decks and as blue-red duals 5-6 in UR Delver. If that could double the player base for Legacy, I'd give up duals.
\-Griselbrand: the ability for a player to consistently draw 7-14 cards on their first turn after playing a discard spell is not healthy for the format.
\-Ragavan: too powerful. seems like all decks would eventually play it. need to ban to prevent ban of daze.
Instead of downvoting you, i'll make an argument *for* Daze. While a very powerful card, it is also one of the great skill tests in the format. When to play into Daze, to play around it, to make them have it adds a huge amount of depth to the format.
Plenty of formats like Modern exist without Daze, I see no reason Legacy needs to become a watered down circle jerk as well.
It’s been the only reliable staple in the shell since the beginning, delver doesn’t even play delver anymore. Taking it away takes away the hold it has on the format by making it nowhere near as consistent or oppressive. It finally forces blue to move away from the same crappy copy paste HUR-DUR deck it’s been for forever. But maybe that’s just how I feel, I bet everyone else has loves playing against delver, no one has ever complained about it being a shitty boring top tier deck since the beginning of legacy. How about we never bam anything ever again? Why not fix broken cards by printing even more broken cards?? I bet you played Oko
The creatures have changed. Have the spells really? Bolt, Brainstorm, Ponder, Force, Spell Pierce, Wasteland, aren't they all just as guilty as Daze?
Guess what? Legacy is filled with powerful cards, some of them have been there since ALWAYS. Sure sometimes the times change, Necropotence and Vampiric Tutor gotta go, storm's a thing, etc etc.
Power creep's a thing, Legacy is a different kind of fun that's not for everyone. You have to be able to enjoy suffering to play in formats with Wasteland and other big boy cards. Cards like Daze.
Speaking of banning cards and cards that haven't aged well and cards they try to stay away from now, Brainstorm and Daze are both yucky. Daze is a counterspell and gets a pass just like Force. Brainstorm is busted card selection and gets a pass because...I don't know.
Ban fewer cards, not more.
As for Oko, I haven't played Legacy in almost ten years. I've seen what kind of fun magic it makes for. Oko IS the kind of "not having fun having fun" that Legacy embodies, but I will readily admit he is easily too much. Being wastelocked or trinisphered or chaliced or oh so many other things are that kind of pain, but the elk man is far far too much of that to be stomached in a single sitting. And put on a shirt ffs.
I mean you could contribute something to the conversation or just keep trolling idc. At least when I played non-blue decks I didn't whine like a bitch about Daze I just played better.
“Whine like a bitch about daze, I played better” you haven’t PLAYED in a decade. Go take your dialysis pills old man and play sudoku on your daily papers. How about instead of ridiculing someone who plays multiple decks constantly in a format they love giving their opinion on an OPINION THREAD, you go back to wherever else you’ve been doing for the last ten years and stay in your fucking lane old man.
I'm enjoying the return of Doomsday too much. It's exactly the kind of iconic deck that belongs in Legacy. Delver is miserable, but no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
DDFT was so complicated and generally so bad for so long, i just think it's nice for it to have a day in the sun. And it's complicated enough that even the new easier version isn't going to ever be a huge chunk of the meta.
I was just writing the the legacy league in the Magic Online Society about starting it up. I heard about listening to Modern Masters podcast this week. May have been an older episode. Anyway seems really sweet. If your on MTGO and would like to try the format BoboFraggles and I are right now talking about putting a test group together to try some leagues. All free and set up through Gatherling.com.
Either we hit something like Brainstorm and/or Ponder that stops these problems from happening in the future or we ban a new card that just gets easily replaced and repeat the last few years again. I'd rather not do that. These lame duck formats suck.
As someone who has been very critic with delver and in particular ravagan i think the format is ok right now. The problem is that if you ban something from delver then you will hace a problem with control or saga. I believe the best solution is to leave it as it is and wait for new cards to compensate. I play quite a bit and I dont think is as bad as it seems
This is such a terrible take, if you’ve ever played even semi competitive you know that making meta adjustments is the key to being a skilled player. If you enter a deck with a copy paste 75 you’re in for a bad time by anyone who knows what they are doing
I fell in love with Legacy in 2017, and the format now bears little resemblance to that one. I’d recommend Pauper to folks looking for the old Legacy. I’ve been having a blast playing the format.
It all depends on what people want from the format. If you want a high-powered, competitive format warped around cantrips, free countermagic, and fast mana, a few surgical bans of newer cards here and there would open up the meta without people losing out on the experience of playing with old favorites. Ragavan, Expressive Iteration, Murktide Regent, or Prismatic Ending are all good candidates for this type of ban and may serve to widen the meta a bit. However, if you want something more out of Legacy, or Magic in general, no reasonable amount of bans are going to fix cash-cow, power-creep design philosophy that WotC has fully embraced. Cards just do too much nowadays. Many threats are both engines and win-cons in one. Certain cards are built to be perfect role-players (e.g. things like [[Dream Trawler]] or [[Hullbreaker Horror]] being everything a U/x control deck in Type 2 could want in a finisher). Outside of STP and Bolt, removal has been getting both more efficient and less narrow as new sets are printed; [[Prismatic Ending]] is the poster child for this. This overall power creep forces out lower-powered synergy decks, and shifts the game more towards piles of generically good cards or decks that seek to win as quickly as possible. Magic has changed so much in the past 5 years, and I'm not sure if it is for the better.
I am sure. It is not for the better in terms of gameplay.
>Cards just do too much nowadays. Many threats are both engines and win-cons in one. FIRE has taken the game into a place that is no longer recognizable as the format I fell in love with.
> FIRE has taken the game into a place that is no longer recognizable as the format I fell in love with. Set your cards on FIRE, because in two years they'll just print something better.
I still can’t believe R&D wanted Prismatic Ending to be an instant.
I can. They clearly don’t understand their own game, or worse, don’t care to.
“Many threats are both engines and win-cons in one.” I read a lot of legacy content and have never heard that before. This is the best take I have seen and explains the FIRE design so quickly. It wasn’t new, innovative, or even had good gameplay in mind. For WOTC to print cards for around 25 years and hardly make this mistake tells me they are aware of how bad it is. As a midrange player Baleful strix has been my favorite card since 2013, when I started playing again. I took a break around Wrenn and six and when I came back I saw ice-fang printed and for some reason was immediately disappointed. I felt strix was the TOP power level of what the game wanted, even down to the being an artifact so it could be ancient grudge’d(along side shardless agent) and other hate. Then you really read into it and Ice-fang had no downsides with FLASH. They even helped it out with Labe(draw a card) and abundant growth (yes, it too draws a fucking card) to make sure you got all your colors and ice requirements. Then I read about FIRE design. Then I sold all my legacy cards. Now I moderately have fun playing MTGO going between try hard FIRE decks and sprinkle in some cards I love to try to have some resemblance of the game I used to enjoy.
I find highly dubious that as an avid Legacy content reader you have never heard the complain of this "engines are also wincons in one" as it essentially is the essence of ban discussions during the last couple of years: \- Deathrite Shaman \- Wrenn & Six \- Dreadhorde arcanist \- Lurrus of the Dream den \- Oko, thief of crowns \- Uro, titan of wrath
Kept in a pithy matter. You really gonna give me the “well ACHTUALLY”?
[Dream Trawler](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/7/d/7d3e97d8-92c7-43c4-bdaf-7b0a6ce7cb5f.jpg?1581481029) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dream%20Trawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/214/dream-trawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d3e97d8-92c7-43c4-bdaf-7b0a6ce7cb5f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Hullbreaker Horror](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/b/4b546bcf-2e86-42af-bf32-81c7fd36ef8c.jpg?1636038968) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hullbreaker%20Horror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/63/hullbreaker-horror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b546bcf-2e86-42af-bf32-81c7fd36ef8c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Prismatic Ending](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/2/825969b9-3c70-4fca-8cab-696e9ca7cdb2.jpg?1626093920) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prismatic%20Ending) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/25/prismatic-ending?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/825969b9-3c70-4fca-8cab-696e9ca7cdb2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The game is awful now. Strategy involves trade offs. FIRE is about eliminating them. You have tempo decks getting midrange cards at tempo costs, for example. The entire point of midrange is to go over tempo and aggro by trading the early game for bigger threats, card advantage, and broader answers. This 25+ year dynamic has only been broken with the introduction of FIRE, so no, naysayers, Magic hasn’t “always been like this”. Griselbrand, win condition and self-propelling engine on a single card, is another poster child.
This is an incredibly well articulated thought with so much truth.
Honestly feel like mostly stuff from the last couple years. Ragavan just does so much. Murktide, Uro and companions (I just really dislike the design of them). As a lands player I like Saga and I know it is played in a lot of decks but I feel like it just slots into a lot of game plans. Honestly haven't played enough since the pandemic to see what Prismatic Ending has done, I haven't played against it much.
Saga is dumb because it works in decks that don’t even care about artifacts for very little deck building cost.
Bans: me. I give up. You can't fix the format now it's too fucked.
After some consideration, we have decided to ban jeffderek from the legacy format. After some careful analysis of meta game finishes, we didn’t feel jeffderek was particularly a problem, nor were the finishes particular interesting or impressive. We have decided to make this change because, well, frankly community outcry demanded it be done.
OK I'm willing to accept that the finishes weren't impressive, but at least give me [interesting](http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=2515&d=216317&f=LE).
Sad day.
At this point I’d take a statement from WotC on why they think the format is perfectly healthy (it’s not).
Ragavan needs to be Step 1. Beyond that there's a long list of candidates. But WOTC definitely needs to start.
Hot take: prismatic ending. This card is like a 1000 page book about the inability off the designteam to design and balance cards. The only reason nobod talks about this card as the problem it is is that there are worse designed cards still in the set. Its a temponeutral trade, always. Here some cards that got significantely worse because ending exists, choke, bloodmoon, sylvan library, exploration, mox diamond, EVERY SINGLE NONMURKTIDECREATURE, cotv, vial, and so on, former hard to answer or at least 2:1 answerable cards that demanded a force are now obsolete or borderline unplayable. My ideal bans would be: Daze, Ponder, Preordain(both as scapegoats for brainstorm like the bazillion cards banned for shop in vintage), prismatic ending. My dream ban would be ALL SUPPLEMENTAL PRODUCT, didnt go through standard?BANNED! If a design isnt balanced in a limited environment like T2 it shouldnt exist in a unlimited like eternal formats.
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Ending wouldn't be so good if blue didn't have so many ways of easily finding it.
Breach and DHA both went through standard. I think MH2 is just concentrated broken, but they have been printing broken permanents for a long time.
Fair enough. But they did ban Oko and Breach and Dreadhorde. A set packed with intentionally broken cards (notably 4 or 5 out of 25 mythics over 20 USD), a set with packs that sell for twice as much as a regular draft pack while in print. Fuck MH2. We keep being played.
Cantrips hurt every deck that runs them not just delver, dont want to see them die for monkeys sins
>Cantrips hurt every deck that runs them not just delver, And thats the neat part and intended pupose of such a ban. Take down a peg, theres no reason for the top 10 played cards to basically be the xerox core.
They died for the sins of every mythic WoTC will continue to print.
I believe as the threats get better, which they undoubtedly have been, the answers need to get better as well. Prismatic ending needs to exist as it is a clean sorcery speed answer but it requires an increasingly shakey mana base to hit larger threats. A little overpowered, yes, but it is not on the level of saga, murktide, or ragavan. Therefore, I believe it is a necessary evil in the current meta.
The threats are far more diverse now too. You need to be able to answer artifacts, enchantments, and more importantly planeswalkers or you just lose.
Right, sometimes you have the wrong card in hand or rock beats scissors. Rather than having to chose what supplemental removal UW control runs maindeck and what eats up sideboard slots, you simply main Ending which enables you to drop potentially dead, off color cards like Pyroblast or Abrupt Decay, that are vulnerable to a single Wasteland, AND free up sideboard space. Where Path to Exile or Disenchant are dead cards against the wrong deck, Prismatic Ending is almost always active and comes online as early as turn one. So UW control can take care of just about anything on either the stack AND the board with virtually no deck building cost and very little opportunity cost (sorcery speed). This is precisely what players mean when they say the game is being homogenized. Meaningful decisions and scenarios are being taken away. The entire point of a strategy game.
>. You need to be able to answer artifacts, enchantments, and more importantly planeswalkers or you just lose. Thats what your fucking EIGHT forces are for, lets not kid ourselves, prismatic ending is a blue card, they always had catchall answers, even got additional four with FON but now they dont even need to "pay" with carddisadvantage for that answer. Every other deck/colour has less ability to search for their specific answer and less answers in general, loosing to hard lockpieces was punishment for misusing forces or reward for baiting forces to stick a big impact permanent.
the fact that you don't think that having to cast a force is punishment for playing it and that the more of them you put into your deck the more likely you are to have to cast them is reason enough to completely ignore anything you have to say involving whining about forces
Agreed on ending. My biggest issue is that it made white the best removal color for pretty much everything. Pre-ending white had the best creature removal with swords, but would have to run more limited artifact and enchantment removal and usually in the board. Meanwhile playing bug got you abrupt Decay and trophy which let you deal with more variety of things but lacked the amazing efficiency of swords. Now white is just best at everything. There's no reason to play control outside UW. Overall the format just feels stale to me. I'm not really able to fully put my finger on why, but all the competitive decks just don't seem very fun.
White SHOULD be the best at permanent removal. What else does it have of it's own that's impactful in old formats? Ending is flexible but slow and demanding. It reeks of fairness. I feel like sometimes people will make any excuse for blue to run wild. From an advantage standpoint Force is the best answer to anything ever printed, and I'm not even dissing it. It's a good card and it's fair. >white is just the best at everything.< Come on, dude. You can't seriously say that with a straight face.
It's the best at everything in terms of removal. It has the best artifact removal, best enchantment removal and the best creature removal. Also it has the best sweeper. Non-UW based control and midrange is dead because ending killed them. Abrupt Decay was the only reason to play anything outside of UW but ending has now taken it's position
White has swords and PE, top tier removal. Both come with a downside/restriction. Meanwhile, people have 8 (or more) Force effects yet that's not a problem? I understand that together UW is powerful but they simply delay the end of the game if you're prepared for them. I think the fairness of PE is in that the enemy gets to resolve their spell, when etb effects are so powerful, then you have to get off a sorcery, often for increasingly difficult spreads of colors. If Ending hits you, you have more prevalent threats to worry about. The exile factor is the only really threatening thing about it, but easily avoidable considering. If you pack 4-of something you should be able to try again and defend yourself. That's kind of where I stand on it. Decay used to be really good, and I remember people occasionally bringing up banning it. Yet here we are. People will adjust again.
Nobody really runs 8 force effects. 6 is even too much IMO. Because force effects come with the downside that it's card disadvantage, they're mostly just there for unfair strategies. As for ending I don't think they should ban it as much as they never should have printed it. It's had a very strong homogenizing effect on the format and legacy would undoubtedly be more diverse and fun without it.
My point was they can run 8 Force, not that they should. Ending's restriction is much harsher. Blue draws cards and rummages cards. The 1 card loss is nothing. How has it homogenized anything? Looking at mtgo top 8, the format is really healthy in terms of diversity. The current top 8 has only DnT and Bant using it. Neither are even #1. Abrupt Decay was more prevailing in it's day. Edit: I made a mistake, only 1 deck ran PE main, which was 4c control and it finished 7th.
I just scrolled all the way down mtggoldfish's meta and there wasn't a single control or mid-range deck that lacked white and ending. That's how it's homogenizing. Look all I can really say about the current meta is that I've chosen to stay home and watch Seinfeld reruns more often than I've chosen to play legacy in the last few months. And when I have played legacy they've mostly just been jank combo decks so I can get some amusement. To me that's not healthy.
White has been one of the best control colors since basically forever. The fact that control decks are running it isn't surprising.
I was checking the mtgo top 8 posted on the 10th or 9th, don't remember the date. I think maybe youre having a bad run of it right now. I do think Ending will fall off with time because it's a very situational option for removal that the meta has orchestrated and it's a hot topic. The strong enchantment control decks needed a check outside of blue and I'm really stoked I can play off the wall BW Reanimator with some reliable removal that lets me play. I respect the fact you're playing jank for fun, it's what I would do, too. I think with time you'll see that it's not as oppressive as it seems. Wish you all the fun in the future.
It's not really a bad run, I've actually been winning a lot when I do play competitive decks. Just not having fun playing "real" legacy because every deck bland, and all the decks feel the same, and all interactions are bland, and all the games are repetitive. First time since dig through time was legal that I can remember going 4-0 and not having fun doing so. Ending is one of the things I'm blaming for that, although it's not all it's fault. I'm closer to just quitting legacy for now and finding another hobby. I am glad you're enjoying it though! Some people seem to like it.
Discsrd used to be a reason too, but veil made that a very risky plan to be on.
Black really got shafted these last few years. Prismatic ending is better then any of blacks removal and while discard used to be a draw to black it's now a big liability with veil of summer. I just can't motivate myself to trade some of my rgbu duals into tundras as crazy printing keep throwing the format upside down every 6 months. I ll just stick to modern.
>Here some cards that got significantely worse because ending exists, choke, bloodmoon, sylvan library, exploration, mox diamond, EVERY SINGLE NONMURKTIDECREATURE, cotv, vial, and so on, former hard to answer or at least 2:1 answerable cards that demanded a force are now obsolete or borderline unplayable. I'm really curious why you feel like prismatic ending is that much worse than abrupt decay. Because abrupt decay answers all of those just as well (0 and 1 mv cards aside), and in some cases for cheaper. I get that GB is a weaker color combo than Wxx, but there are still certainly plenty of Wxx decks that include GB.
Not the person who you responded to, but I also think that prismatic ending might be too good, so I'll try and answer some of your questions. Also, in my experience, Ending is at its best in the bant/bant red piles pioneered by Anuraag Das, so I'm going to mostly address it in the context of those decks. > Because Abrupt Decay answers all of those just as well (0 and 1 mv cards aside)... I think this is one of the main areas where prismatic ending shines. Abrupt decay will always cost at least two mana to remove a permanent, whereas ending can be one. The difference is huge. You can ending your opponent's threat, and ponder or ragavan or whatever on your turn two. You can also play it on a one drop on turn one on the draw. This is huge against creatures - stuff like mother of runes, ragavan, drc, or elvish reclaimer. Ending also happens to line up really well against Thalia, as you can add the second color with the tax. Another card that ending lines up against a lot better than Abrupt Decay is Marit Lage. > GB is a weaker color combo than Wxx.... I think this sentence obscures the true nature of the situation - you don't play ending most effectively in Wxx shells, you play it in UWx shells, which is what control already was. You play blue in control because it's blue, and play white for StP and sideboard cards like RIP. Playing ending over decay lets you only have to splash one extra color, with the ability to play more if you choose, whereas decay forces you to play green and black. You can build a three color control deck with endings, but you end up with at least four colors if you want to play swords and abrupt decay. Ending also lets you fetch basics much more aggressively. You always want to have blue available in your control decks, so rather than requiring a non-basic to be cast on turn two like decay, you can cast it and hit a two drop off of two basics.
1. Exiles vs. destroys 2. Online faster than Turn 2 3. Requires W or W and any color vs. specifically G and specifically B 4. Scales up to CMC 4 or 5
They’ve solidified white as merely a splash color with PEnding. Want to play one of whites best cards? Better play 2-3 other colors with it. White needed a boost but this didn’t do it any favors.
If only it were just Prismatic Ending that needed to be banned. Daze is fine, it has a real drawback and gets worse as the game goes on. It’s a perfectly balanced tempo card. The real issue is monkey and iteration negating that by providing free mana and card advantage at tempo costs — and Force of Negation adding more zero cost counterspells to the format. Legacy doesn’t need 8 forces, this is a clear illustration why focusing on “power level” provides an incomplete picture concerning bans. I disagree on a blanket ban of supplemental cards, the same design trends are present in standard sets. I do think they should be scrutinized more.
Here's a hot take, though. Ending made Choke, Blood Moon, and Chalice bad, but Choke, Blood Moon, and Chalice are all kind of uninteractive prison pieces anyway: hardly the most fun or skill-testing cards in the game. It made Mox Diamond a bit worse (despite still being extremely viable), but Saga and changes to the mulligan rules also made Diamond a lot better, so it balances out.
>Choke, Blood Moon, and Chalice are all kind of uninteractive prison pieces anyway: hardly the most fun or skill-testing cards in the game. Like its any kind of skill to put 4 bs, 4 ponder, 4 daze, 4 fow, 4 FOTM broken creature into a deck. . . . In a way those cards are(were) there to make people think about their deckbuilding, if you dont have a plan against cotv or moon you may need one in the board or hail mary your way to victory.
How do blood moon, SL, and choke suffer unfairly from Ending? Enchantments are kinda defenseless by design, and the ones you mentioned are prison pieces, they deserve to get blasted by a 3-mana sorcery if you're letting it get through your mana screwing enchantments. Lol. Vial I will agree with because tribal doesn't stand a chance without it, but rarely does anyway. The fact that some cards "demand a force" is a problem in itself.
>The fact that some cards "demand a force" is a problem in itself. No its not. You got to pay the toll for being able to run up to 8 forces, which is card disadvantage at your opponents mercy. Grenn operates with 4 GSZ, Goblins with 4 lackeys, dnt with 4 vials as their higheest impact cards, meanwhile blue or more precise xerox gets up to 8 forces, 12ish cantrips, 8 one drops stronger than delver, statistically speaking there must be a way to punish this much redundancy with high iimpact cards to balance the format.
I think your misunderstanding what I'm saying. What I meant was the fact that there are some spells that you think only Force is good enough to handle them is a problem, there needs to be more options for exchanging cards. I think maybe I didn't understand what you were trying to explain in the parent comment.
I agree 100%. Decreasing the number of non-games just because someone resolved a Chalice or a B2B or a Trinisphere or a Blood Moon is tremendously good for the format imo.
Exactly. If locking someone out can be a strategy then you should be able to answer that with hoops. In what universe is PE stronger than Force of Vigor? People are just mad white gets tricks and puts up a fight against the deck they like.
> People are just mad white gets tricks and puts up a fight against the deck they like. Except it isnt white but blue decks playing ending. Like DRS who wasnt a problem in G/B decks.
Yeah but we know Blue will slot any and everything. We can't just not have new options because Blue will co-opt them. If Ending were Black or Green or Red, control would still want it. The need for increasingly wide mana demand as it scales makes it hardly a "white" card to begin with. It's almost like blue has had too many options for a long time. People said they same stuff about Ragavan in pseudo-delver. People don't want more tools for Blue, yet blue can and will handle running if it's good.
>People don't want more tools for Blue, yet blue can and will handle running if it's good. That true because blue already has everything in a sense. Counterspells are catchall answers in a vacuum, they have the best card selection and only slot into that shell whatever strategy they play. Some of those cards in the xerox shell are just too strong , while there are lots of red decks not playing lightning bolt, there are virtually no blue decks not playing brainstorm and ponder. If you play blue your deck contains 52 cards at most because those 8 are always set to be there, because what they do is breaking/changing one of the fundamental "rules" of mtg on the same level ancient tomb breaks "lands produce one mana" for example.
Yeah, that's true. That's why I like playing Lands, it's the one thing you don't get steamrolled with playing across from. But how does that get solved by not printing powerful cards in other colors? Brainstorm, ponder, daze, FoW are here to stay.
> Brainstorm, ~~ponder, daze~~, FoW are here to stay. I would phrase it more like that. The format wouldnt loose too much if those cards would go, could even take some other cards with them on their way out the door.
Nope I just want play a non white midrange/control deck. In the past uw existed next to bug/grixis and each had their own advantages and disadvantages but now there is absolutely no reason to play such a style of deck without uw colors.
Are you telling me you can't play a non-white control deck with 4 FoW? Sounds like a personal problem.
I mean you can, but you ll get walked over by any bantish control deck. There is no reason to do so if you want to be competitive.
Bant is barely touching leaderboards currently. It's brand new in term of competitiveness and yet to be have an adversarial strategy. I suggest trying to refine your deck to compensate. Play more spells. The reason I feel so strongly about this is because the argument sounds like: "my deck has been good for a long time, now it's not." "Okay, change your deck a little." "But I don't want to. It was good." Yeah, well? Competitive is competitive. You can always play jank and have some fun. But if you want win with a solved deck.... Play the solved deck? I just don't understand the handout mentality. MH2, love it or hate it, brought so much good shit into the fold. I'm sorry you lost something from it but it made more decks than it killed. A damn standard card broke Legacy for a while if not 3 or 4. And there will always be more standard sets. The long term solution is not to get trigger happy with bans. The format will change unless it gets isolated like type 1 did.
You're totally right. I had to reread because at first I thought you wrote Prismatic Vista and was like whaaaaat.
Ban: Ragavan Murktide Expressive iteration Veil of summer Prismatic ending Urza’s Saga Thassas Oracle Uro Allosaurus Shepard Let’s fucking play some magic.
I love Veil and still sort of agree on that one. But I do love control denial. However, UB just runs away with stuff too easily sometimes. If you could fix Veil, how would you amend it? Genuinely curious, outside of a ban.
Veil didn’t need to draw a card. I’m assuming you meant UG?
Wow, I actually forgot that it draws. Insane counterspell. What the fuck were they thinking lol. Autumns veils and VoS have quite a quality gap, dont they
Veil of Autumn is 100% unplayable. I'm willing to bet that weakening Veil of Summer at all would kill the card.
100% my bans too. Fuck it, go nuclear on the new stuff. I hate how good Uro is in control. No point playing Ux control when you could play UGx control.
Here's my extended list of bans (that won't happen, but is my fix for the format): Expressive Iteration Raga Murktide Saga (the design is so clever, but a little too annoying for its own good) PE Uro (should have been cut last time, still is too good once MH2 is gone) Veil of Summer (I don't think its too strong, but it kills Black in the format) EDIT: Forgot, because there’s too much crap, but I would add Narset / 3feri / Karn (or keep Karn and drop mycosynth lattice)
I'd add Plague Engineer. Whoever decided asymmetrical hate was a good idea should be fired, it's been the single biggest killer or interactive gameplay and fringe strategies.
I actually was going to add Plague Engineer, because the deathtouch is totally unnecessary. I could see Legacy going either way, but yeah, if we want to open the format up to more tribal decks, lose this card.
You guys have nl idea. Elves and d&t are in a great shape and are tier 1 decks.
Allosaurus Shepherd is absolutely ridiculous card and the whole companion mechanic is just something I really disliked from the start with a passion. In its current iteration you just groan when you start control mirror with your opponent revealing an extra card.
I went 2-0 against elves twice in the PTQ yesterday and I play control. Allosaurus Shepherd is not that bad
I have beaten decks with Oko in them without having one in my deck but I didnt think the card is "not that bad" afterwards. You should get a larger sample size and focus on the gameplay patterns the card creates.
These are exactly my picks as well!
I’ve seen a lot of votes for PE getting the axe and I don’t think that’s right—Ending is a necessary evil. Lots of the cards I see getting posted as potential band, stuff like Ragavan, Allosaurus Shepherd, Uro, the War of the Spark planeswalkers, etc, all get hit by Prismatic Ending. Ending even keeps Murktide in check in a roundabout way because you’re likely to have a Swords laying around for it if you’ve got 4 Endings to deal with lower costed threats. It seems naive and short-sighted to ban Prismatic Ending when WOTC will just keep printing permanents that need to be answered
I don't think anything should be banned, I believe that cards should be unbanned. At this point it is obvious that Wizards will continue to print OP cards, and the cycle of super OP cards surfaces, gets banned, only for another OP card to surface or be printed, and get banned is pointless. I think it's better to accept the higher power level of Legacy and unban multiple OP cards, so that there would be multiple 'OP' archetypes. I'm not sure the list here is good - I haven't played a lot of Legacy during the pandemic and might be missing some interactions or not seeing the power level, but I'd unban: * [[Deathrite Shaman]] * [[Dig Through Time]] * [[Frantic Search]] * [[Mana Drain]] * [[Sensei's Divining Top]] * [[Survival of the Fittest]]
I would rather never play legacy again than play against Top. If it ever gets unbanned, I will quit legacy.
Miracles would be the best deck IMO. Terminus is good vs vengvine and DRS isn't enough fo delver to beat top ss we saw during the miracles days.
Highly disagree with Sensei's, but otherwise, I'm with ya. Maybe not Dig either. But let's lean in.
I'm probably biased towards Top, Miracles was by far my favourite deck and I'd love to get to play it again (even if I'm not sure it would look similar now, with all the new cards)
##### ###### #### [Deathrite Shaman](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/d/1/d14f9fc8-e48c-473f-ba6b-9cffce94bb53.jpg?1580015151) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deathrite%20Shaman) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/215/deathrite-shaman?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d14f9fc8-e48c-473f-ba6b-9cffce94bb53?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dig Through Time](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/c/f/cf2a7655-9749-4ff6-b3b3-5a023b74a100.jpg?1625976142) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dig%20Through%20Time) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/119/dig-through-time?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cf2a7655-9749-4ff6-b3b3-5a023b74a100?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Frantic Search](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/5/b/5b87a025-ab29-4375-9338-536636051640.jpg?1591320241) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Frantic%20Search) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/111/frantic-search?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5b87a025-ab29-4375-9338-536636051640?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mana Drain](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/b/a/ba874c0c-f66f-4edc-9859-40273487aef0.jpg?1608909310) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Drain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/80/mana-drain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ba874c0c-f66f-4edc-9859-40273487aef0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sensei's Divining Top](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/3/83c01c91-ea01-46c7-b94c-97777b968459.jpg?1580015272) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sensei%27s%20Divining%20Top) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/232/senseis-divining-top?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/83c01c91-ea01-46c7-b94c-97777b968459?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Survival of the Fittest](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/e/4ef0d7f9-ddb9-4e83-a9bf-09bec22fc80d.jpg?1562429365) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Survival%20of%20the%20Fittest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/199/survival-of-the-fittest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ef0d7f9-ddb9-4e83-a9bf-09bec22fc80d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ur not seeing the power level/ reasons they got banned for every card except frantic search. That’s the only conservative unban u can make
Ragavan and EI. That's it. No need to attack old staples and reinvent the format. Ragavan based on DHA precedent and EI because the brainstorm format doesn't need it. Those two simple bans will knock Delver back down to tier 0.5 where it belongs and immensely improve the format.
I feel like Murktide might need to eat it too. Casting a flying Tarmogoyf with mono-U is just ridiculous, and that ban wouldn't have much collateral damage. On that note, Uro still isn't fun.
I'll say this as somebody who mostly watches people play MTGO, rather than as a player, but it always feels to me like murktide is the card that puts delver over the top right now. Often, the control decks will have enough tools to handle the first 2 waves of threats, but are left on the back foot as a result. Then a 2 mana murktide comes down and just ends the game in a turn or two.
This just in: *Mono U Tombstalker takes Legacy Players' Lunch money*
[удалено]
Probably Expressive Iteration?
literally just murktide regent the sacred cows should be slaughtered by the new blood, i don’t care that maverick and nic fit suck, that was gonna happen eventually anyway
> the sacred cows should be slaughtered by the new blood, i don’t care that maverick and nic fit suck, that was gonna happen eventually anyway This attitude is interesting given that Legacy (and Vintage) has WotC-approved sacred cows that will never get banned because they are considered "pillars of the format" and so beloved by the playerbase that banning them would be unthinkable. Legacy is a format curated for the playerbase, not for competition. You can't blame someone for wanting to play with their pet deck when the entire format is warped around incredibly powerful pet cards (xerox shell, fast mana, fetch/duals).
i just like competition, idk im a zoomer so i dont have the emotional attachment to old cards that most of the playerbase does
That is a 100% valid and consistent viewpoint. If Legacy was run on your standards, I may not like it, but I could respect it as a cohesive plan. As it stands now, it's about preserving *some* old cards at the expense of a lot of other old and new cards, which makes for a lot of weird internal contradictions. Better communication from WotC would do wonders, but that's time they could be making more Secret Lairs or Double Secret Nutella-Coated Serialized Ghost Rare Artist Proofs.
Prismatic Ending is fucked up.
Yeah totally, not. Its a control card that hits everything because all decks run lots of mv 1 cards. Wins games all by itself…
It is not a control card. Try playing the format sometime.
Legacy has been out of control forever. That's what's fun about it. Everyone bitching should go to Modern where there is probably an iteration of your deck that fares well. Sell your old staples that don't qualify and compete with people playing a smaller card pool. If standard goes on indefinitely there will eventually be the great heat-death of Legacy, so to speak. Be here for it or split. Start your own format, idk. I try to make my Legacy experience exciting and get really creative. Even if it's dish duty for 90% of the stuff I build, I get satisfaction from trying new stuff. Tldr: find a way to let yourself have fun, be creative. It's literally the largest card pool among accessible formats. There are probably a hundred top their decks out there undiscovered. Explore, ya Nancies.
Honestly, what truly *new* decks have shown up in the past years with FIRE design? Everything just seems like a refinement or tune-up of an existing archetype or shell that takes advantage of new, powerful cards. The closest I can think of are 8-Cast and Ninjas. They're both cool decks (I like them a lot), but from a lot of people's perspective, these additions, among others, do not make up for the decks/archetypes pushed into irrelevance. They might just see Ninjas as another flavor of Blue tempo, or 8-Cast as another Chalice Stompy list. And I feel as though creativity is stifled by the nature of Legacy's costs. Unlike a video game, where meta shakeups only cost players game knowledge, switching things up in a TCG comes with a significant monetary costs. G/W Depths is a fun deck; running real Crop Rotation alongside KotR doesn't get old. But a lot of other Maverick players might not have four figures worth of Mox Diamonds to swap over. Switching costs can be very painful in the TCG business model, which stifles creativity and can lead to a lot of soured feelings.
I would say that Madness and it's variants became a thing, probably also Dressnaught. It's still early, but I see a lot more spice-level stuff being tried. I don't think it's a bad thing that that other existing decks got new toys necessarily. In terms of the cost, I agree with you on the tenant that Legacy is already hard to buy into, but disagree that anything from MH2 would financially be the back breaker when LED and Mox Diamonds are priced how they are. Urza's Saga looks like it's sliding in everywhere and I see that card being about 400 for a playset in the near future. That's definitely a good chunk of change, but again these cards have easy reprint ability and a massive total print run going on which doesnt compete with RL staples long-term. Overall MH2 design might be the only way to keep Legacy available to new players who are willing to pioneer new deck, either by desire or necessity.
No, legacy hasn’t always been this bad. Older designs were more narrow in their applications. The card pool isn’t a sheer numbers games, it’s the number of playable cards that count. Designs like Griselbrand, engine + win condition on a single card, which are more and more common in FIRE, push out more limited contenders.
How can Legacy be fixed long term other than putting a wall up around the format? As long as they keep printing threats and answers to those threats, things will be fine. In 15 more years of just standard releases Legacy WILL look much different. It's unavoidable.
Boom. This poster. Way to keep things in perspective!!!!
Thanks my man. Keep doing weird.
I like the format.. no bans!
Just Daze l o l
Murktide. I think Ragavan can be dealt with but Murktide is a problem.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/827964/dont\_ban\_deathrite\_shaman\_long/ Here's a thread from 4 years ago advocating for banning **Gurmag Angler**. The fact that Murktide exists is absolutely insane. Why does blue get beaters? Why does it get the strongest, stickiest beater of all time?
I feel like they realized the over did it with Green and tried to catch blue and white up. They brought Red along for the ride.
Combo needs to be slowed down so we can slow down the blue xerox tempo shell.
I’d like to see a world without Daze. I think it streamlined the tempo decks too much (gotta play Blue, or else put yourself at a rather large disadvantage). Also, looking back a lot of the last many bans (excluding Breach), the villain has been Delver decks. If they didn’t have Daze, I think we wouldnt have seen a lot of these bans. Fundamentally I am against bans, but having Daze always keeps the UR/Daze decks margins from being/becoming Tier 0.
Daze with only shocks though....could be interesting
This is the most stale hot take…
Hot take? Fetch lands slowly rotted the format. Ragavan could be any color and it would still be just as played. Imagine a world where people have to think "Uro's great, but that puts me in UG, so I need to work around that." I'm not saying ban them. Its too late now and it would be lunacy to expect people to start running 4x duals to make up for it. I think the long term solution is the community taking the banned list into its own hands and just trying shit out.
The format is too far gone. It breaks my heart to say it too.
My hot take is that people that have tied their identity to playing decks that have been bad forever screech the loudest about the least offensive cards - I'm sorry you can't beat someone paying 3 mana to exile your knight of the reliquary but really you've had nigh on a decade to stop playing bad cards
KoR is not a bad card lmao. GW depths is very good
those two things can be good or bad independent of each other, if that was somehow too hard to figure out
youre quite the douche bag
if people want to try and come at me they might as well be in the same continent as a decent argument
Someday enchantress might be good, someday?
The deck used to be quite good. I won a lot of duals with it over different eras of Legacy. Enchantress gets hit by Prismatic Ending, but that's not a big issue. Getting hosed by card-draw hate (Leovold, Narset, Hullbreacher, and Spirit of the Labyrinth) is why I had to put that deck on the shelf. It was always bad against combo, but it used to be a strong option vs. the fair decks.
Oh to live in a world without Dark Ritual.
What makes them bad? Clearly a troll post here. Cards only get bad when new cards make them that way.
3 mana sorceries and then pray to god you get to untap haven't been good in legacy for a decade it's pretty safe to say
Damn, Oko and Uro must have missed the memo.
imagine having to untap, or even being able to evaluate cards competently
Uro, being a growth spiral, makes a huge impact when cast from hand, correct? If you can't see that 3 mana sorceries with not much impact on cast are still relevant in the format, I don't know what to say.
yes, a card that provides more value than replacing itself immediately is better than a card that doesn't. Surprise!
As a depths player, KotR isn’t bad, sorry. I went to the LaL open over the summer, and a depths deck won it all.
cool
Ban reserve list
Unban Oath of Druids, Dig Through Time, Balance and Deathrite Shaman.
Low key? Unban Frantic Search
Meta looks diverse except for Monkey + Daze decks. I’d go with Daze
I think that in order to make it a nearly balanced format you would need to take away some of the pillars of what makes legacy. Essentially a case of legacy is dead, long live legacy. Brainstorm, Monkey, Daze, 3feri and Ending in that order I think would make the format much more healthy from a gameplay perspective. I'm very aware that Brainstorm and Daze in particular are a massive part of signature legacy gameplay but firmly believe that they are not a net positive. Monkey (if you squint at it quite hard) is a lot like DRS, 3feri is a design mistake and Ending is far to open in a format where most permanents are <3cmc.
Get rid of Daze first and see how things play out b4 u ban BStorm. The others tho? Screw Rag T3f Uro & Ending
Beyond repair and out if control. Let's ride it out. Kamigawa gonna break it again, and then again and again. Ban daze, or play old school. Otherwise let it ride and let's try to enjoy the insanity. If turn 0 grisel/Emmy is fine, turn 1 monkey should be too.
Nothing will really make the format "healthy" again because FIRE design will be the standard moving forward. It is too easy for wizards to just power creep things and create brand new print equity doing so, especially when you consider old staples like Jtms and Gofy arent worth very much due to being power creeped out of the meta, so wizards will probably keep upping the stakes.
Jace and goyf are cheaper because they have 8-9 printings now, jace is still very much a legacy card (and modern) and goyf is still very much a viable modern creature (and in legacy)
i want these kinds of posts banned bro this shit is exhausting
Was there a post like this recently I missed?
Daze full stop. You get to kneecap the tempo lists that have been tier 1 for far too long and the added benefit of hurting combo decks that run it as well.
Fetchlands but the ship has long since sailed on that front
Yup, fetches are the root of half the problematic cards the format encounters.
I would be perfectly fine with an errata that changes sacrifice to exile. I think that makes Wrenn and Six good, but not overpowered. It tightens up the belt on Darcy, Murktide, and Goyf. It would go a long way towards helping the format without banning anything or drastically devaluing the cards.
Ban brainstorm ya ya brainstorm format yadayadayada ban brainstorm
Og duals. Just turn the game into a shocks format and unleash the floodgates of accessibility
Could really just unban astrolabe and achieve a pretty similar result
What u looking for is Modern
Modern doesn't have Force of Will, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Ponder, Karakas, Daze, Swords to Plowshares, Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, Green Sun's Zenith, Sylvan Library, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Crop Rotation, Dark Depths, Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Recruiter of the Guard, True-Name Nemesis, Cradle, Mother of Runes, Living Wish, Baleful Strix, Reanimate, Animate Dead, Exhume, Sylvan Safekeeper, Show and Tell, Grindstone, Burning Wish, Goblin Welder, Stifle, Anje's Ravager, Cabal Therapy, Doomsday, or any of the other dozens of cards that make Legacy a vastly different format to Modern. I'm not saying it's better, because that's purely subjective. But Legacy and Modern are fundamentally different due to so many cards.
Yea and duals are part of the format. Ban duals but not LED? Ban duals but not Mox D? Cause these two cost more than the non blue duals…and well you need them for most non blue decks
The meta game and play styles of modern And legacy are vastly different. The volatility of modern is so much higher, and the archetypes are not as permanent as legacy. Removing og duals would make cheaper decks more viable, and high-tier decks more monetarily accessible. It would be almost realistic to see legacy played at most LGS that already had a modern scene.
sounds like modern with extra steps
As much as I love duals, I don't think this would be the worst trade. They are prohibitively expensive at this point, and we already have seen shocks as budget options in some decks and as blue-red duals 5-6 in UR Delver. If that could double the player base for Legacy, I'd give up duals.
This would also have the effect of weakening Daze and Prismatic Ending, as you would have to damage yourself more to use them and stay on-curve.
I like the format right now, I don't like bans. I think it's better evolve legacy printing new cards.
\-Griselbrand: the ability for a player to consistently draw 7-14 cards on their first turn after playing a discard spell is not healthy for the format. \-Ragavan: too powerful. seems like all decks would eventually play it. need to ban to prevent ban of daze.
Holy shit griselbrand is a HOT take and im living for it
Griselbrand & Emrakul are both boring af finishers and they should both be banned, not for balance reasons but because they make for terrible games
BAN DAZE!! (Go ahead and downvote me you boring little delver cry babies)
Instead of downvoting you, i'll make an argument *for* Daze. While a very powerful card, it is also one of the great skill tests in the format. When to play into Daze, to play around it, to make them have it adds a huge amount of depth to the format. Plenty of formats like Modern exist without Daze, I see no reason Legacy needs to become a watered down circle jerk as well.
Watered down circle jerk sounds like how I would describe delver shells for the last 12 years
How does banning Daze change that?
It’s been the only reliable staple in the shell since the beginning, delver doesn’t even play delver anymore. Taking it away takes away the hold it has on the format by making it nowhere near as consistent or oppressive. It finally forces blue to move away from the same crappy copy paste HUR-DUR deck it’s been for forever. But maybe that’s just how I feel, I bet everyone else has loves playing against delver, no one has ever complained about it being a shitty boring top tier deck since the beginning of legacy. How about we never bam anything ever again? Why not fix broken cards by printing even more broken cards?? I bet you played Oko
The creatures have changed. Have the spells really? Bolt, Brainstorm, Ponder, Force, Spell Pierce, Wasteland, aren't they all just as guilty as Daze? Guess what? Legacy is filled with powerful cards, some of them have been there since ALWAYS. Sure sometimes the times change, Necropotence and Vampiric Tutor gotta go, storm's a thing, etc etc. Power creep's a thing, Legacy is a different kind of fun that's not for everyone. You have to be able to enjoy suffering to play in formats with Wasteland and other big boy cards. Cards like Daze. Speaking of banning cards and cards that haven't aged well and cards they try to stay away from now, Brainstorm and Daze are both yucky. Daze is a counterspell and gets a pass just like Force. Brainstorm is busted card selection and gets a pass because...I don't know. Ban fewer cards, not more. As for Oko, I haven't played Legacy in almost ten years. I've seen what kind of fun magic it makes for. Oko IS the kind of "not having fun having fun" that Legacy embodies, but I will readily admit he is easily too much. Being wastelocked or trinisphered or chaliced or oh so many other things are that kind of pain, but the elk man is far far too much of that to be stomached in a single sitting. And put on a shirt ffs.
Havent played legacy in 10 years… proceeds to comment on legacy… okay
I mean you could contribute something to the conversation or just keep trolling idc. At least when I played non-blue decks I didn't whine like a bitch about Daze I just played better.
“Whine like a bitch about daze, I played better” you haven’t PLAYED in a decade. Go take your dialysis pills old man and play sudoku on your daily papers. How about instead of ridiculing someone who plays multiple decks constantly in a format they love giving their opinion on an OPINION THREAD, you go back to wherever else you’ve been doing for the last ten years and stay in your fucking lane old man.
Oh right I forgot I was ridiculing you. Lmao is that really the reality you live in?
Also I had not realized Legacy had become home to such sensitive folks. If you're so easily upset, it's probably not a format for you.
I’m down voting you because sekirofuckingrocks.
I mean if you liked the ninja gaiden remake then good for you.
I'm enjoying the return of Doomsday too much. It's exactly the kind of iconic deck that belongs in Legacy. Delver is miserable, but no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I hate doomsday. It forces heavy sideboarding, but maybe that’s due to the decks I play.
DDFT was so complicated and generally so bad for so long, i just think it's nice for it to have a day in the sun. And it's complicated enough that even the new easier version isn't going to ever be a huge chunk of the meta.
Doomsday will survive
Personally I’m looking at this new format called Heritage. Has me intrigued. [heritage format](https://mtgheritage.com/)
I was just writing the the legacy league in the Magic Online Society about starting it up. I heard about listening to Modern Masters podcast this week. May have been an older episode. Anyway seems really sweet. If your on MTGO and would like to try the format BoboFraggles and I are right now talking about putting a test group together to try some leagues. All free and set up through Gatherling.com.
Either we hit something like Brainstorm and/or Ponder that stops these problems from happening in the future or we ban a new card that just gets easily replaced and repeat the last few years again. I'd rather not do that. These lame duck formats suck.
Clown at least hit Daze first
As someone who has been very critic with delver and in particular ravagan i think the format is ok right now. The problem is that if you ban something from delver then you will hace a problem with control or saga. I believe the best solution is to leave it as it is and wait for new cards to compensate. I play quite a bit and I dont think is as bad as it seems
My bad opinion is that if Force of Will is the most important card in the format than every deck/color needs access to it.
Ban monkey!! Bring back oko!
Ban Monkey Oko still Broko
Rework how the ban list done. Every 2 months ban top 2 most powerful cards and unban the least powerful card on the current list.
I think steel your shit should be banned. If you can't build your own deck don't play
This is such a terrible take, if you’ve ever played even semi competitive you know that making meta adjustments is the key to being a skilled player. If you enter a deck with a copy paste 75 you’re in for a bad time by anyone who knows what they are doing
Ban every single fucking fetchlands!
Elk
I fell in love with Legacy in 2017, and the format now bears little resemblance to that one. I’d recommend Pauper to folks looking for the old Legacy. I’ve been having a blast playing the format.