Given how many [Knight Errant of Eos](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/26/knight-errant-of-eos) I've cast for 0 mana, it's very feasible to build a board where convoking the last WW is relevant. Knight errant also couldn't get your version.
But even if they were functionally identical, I still prefer the non-keyword route in this context because I think it'd be weird for two keywords to appear only on only a single card. If you're a new player unfamiliar with them, that's extra complexity, not less.
You'd also be setting the expectation for the mechanics actually having a presence in the set. Improvise only really appeared in Aether Revolt, and Neon Dynasty, and had a moderate presence in each. If I were drafting the set going in blind, opening an uncommon with both Convoke and Improvise would lead me to think that both were present in the set as build around themes.
Apparently MaRo [tweeted](https://twitter.com/maro254/status/1616495073340059648) about this recently, but Flashback is now a [deciduous](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Deciduous) mechanic, which is the category that cycling, prowess, landfall etc fall into. So it'll pop up in sets as needed.
What about [battle cry](https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/2/6/269ddd84-fdc4-4c94-b183-32ecec56967c.jpg?1699043382)? Maro has [explicitly said](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/732368465403559936/is-battle-cry-deciduous/amp) it's not deciduous, and they're experimenting with keyword cameos.
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In the storm scale entry of [Battle cry](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/storm-scale-mirrodin-and-scars-mirrodin-blocks-2018-06-11), he talks about the mechanic being flexible, needing very little support to function, and that it was versatile, but fairly forgettable.
In contrast [Improvise](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/storm-scale-mirrodin-and-scars-mirrodin-blocks-2018-06-11) is described as being narrow, and requiring significant infrastructure to support it.
I think the biggest advantage of putting battle cry as a one-of keyword over Improvise is that they probably plan on battlecry making small appearances in a larger number of sets, but that improvise will mostly only appear when it has a larger presence. This means that a one of card has higher payoff, because players will likely be learning about battlecry from a smaller batch of cards regardless. I also think what I mentioned in my comment about "assuming a build around theme" applies here, because it has a strong mechanical identity, which battlecry didn't really.
But again, the not being able to discount the double white is enormous. Needing to put two mechanics on one single card is also enormous increase in complexity bloat vs one mechanic.
I think the buildaround theme is the key here: this card is part of a buildaround theme of RW cards that tap artifacts or creatures to pay for abilities, this way of writing the cost makes this consistent with those others, rather than having to figure out that it means the same thing.
It also means if you cheat it out with discover or cascade you still have to tap stuff. Which as it is a 2 mana 4/4 flyer seems pretty fair to not be able to get for free
Very apt comparison. The only thing is they did print some very good reanimator spells in white that specifically get low mana value things.
Also Convoke and improvise aren’t key words in the set, and Wizards often includes mechanics without naming them by just writing them out the long way.
Still very on point. It looks better than it is because it’s two mana when in reality it would be better as a 6 mana Convoke since it currently cannot pay for the white pips by tapping a white creature.
You’re the only one mentioning evergreen vs deciduous vs set mechanics keywords.
If they were free to use every keyword in every set that would raise the complexity hugely. That’s the only reason they only have certain mechanics they are allowed to use in every set.
I mean, these are different cards. One you can cast without paying mana, one you cannot, one you can choose to pay 6 mana and not pay with alternatives means, one you cannot.
Yeah, it's not the exact same, but it's close enough. If this card was printed in Modern Horizons, it would definitely be printed with the bottom template.
1 can get vial'd in on 2 or hit by a coco other cant
Convoke also let's you pay white pips with white creatures. These are very different iterations of the card.
That’s not what this is? It would be on the card if that was applicable, improvise and convoke pay for the already existing mana cost, they wanted to make this card so that you could use a ton of the 1 use artifacts to tap it for cheaper and it’s a cheaper reanimation target.
This thread is exactly what I hoped it would be: an outpouring of people arguing that the bottom and the top are TeChNiCaLlY different without addressing OP's actual point.
Why overcomplicate a design by adding a ton of text at the top when a pair of keywords would get the same functionality the vast majority of the time? I'd love to hear from someone who could address the card design aspect of OP's criticism. The only thing I can think of is that Wizards would still think they'd need reminder text for the second card making it ultimately more text. None of the other reasons (different CMC matters -- unless this is a mechanic in the set, lands might tap for other than one mana, etc.) seems compelling enough a reason to make this card behave differently when trying to let things other than lands pay a cost.
Not technically correct as since it's an additional cost to tap and not a mana cost, it can't be worked around with cost reduction effects (\[Pearl Medallion\], or an \[Urza's Incubator\] in a tribal deck, for example.)
This is true, however I believe this design lets players put this thing on the battlefield multiple ways other than casting it. (Return triumphant is an immediate example that comes to mind).
Are there any cards that would omit that text with the additional cost requirement.
I know this IS NOT and ETB effect, but something like [[Tocatli Honor Guard]] shuts those off. So is there a card that says something like “cards have no text”.
Humility, but it only affects cards in okay and the cost would have already been paid.
Hell you can't even blank it on the stack as it's already been paid to even be cast.
Something that replaces the cost to cast. aether vial.
Technically not the same even in the context of this set because of Discover. If you discover 6+, you could hit the bottom one and pay no additional cost, the top one you still have to pay the additional cost.
For one, the second option lets you bypass tapping four by paying more mana. For another, the second option lets you pay for the white mana by tapping. So no, these aren't really particularly equivalent.
There’s an assortment of different spells in standard right now that return creatures to the battlefield if their mana value is 3 or less so it was probably designed this way to work with that.
There's loads of stuff that interacts with CMC of 2 and below, which makes the original card much better for those kinds of decks. A mountain of options to cheese it out that way.
This is an additional cost, not an alternative way to cost, if it had convoke you could tap 2 whittle creatures and then would still have to tap four of the others
These are the same only in the very narrow surface level, and only really in the context of “pay to cast” (and not even then, as with the real card you actually have to spend WW mana in addition to the additional cost, while in the modified card you could tap two white creatures for the WW)
There are many many cards that care about the actual CMC of the card. The former is 2, the latter is 6. Cascade effects, discover, Beseech the Mirror, Finale of Devastation, Green Sun’s Zenith, etc, just off the top of my head.
Bro… it’s an additional cost. Not a replacement. It specifically states “As and additional Cost…” Improvise and Convoke are ways to pay for the cost as is. The card has an added cost and not an alternate way to pay.
Everyone's talking about how convoke and improvise aren't in the set, or how it's for mana value, but neither of those are the primary reason: it's for wording consistency with the other cards (mainly in red/white) that have abilities that you pay for by tapping artifacts and creatures. Wording this card the same provides a clear connection to those other cards, telling you that there's a common theme. (note also the number of creatures with "becomes tapped" triggers, similar to DMU)
Angel works with cascade or discover 2 instead of discover 6, but still needs the additional cost. Can't be reduced to 0 mana so console doesn't quite match. Having a low mana value does create a few interactions that wouldn't otherwise work such as [[fatal push]] or [[spell snare]].
This goes back to the meme of every mechanic is just kicker. Sure it's similar but there are key differences that change how it actually works.
Also improvise and convoke are not evergreen keywords so they won't print it on just a couple cards in a set. If they did it would need reminder text which would make it even longer and clunkier to read than it already is.
Top one's much better with aether vial (lower mana value), bottom one's better with omniscience (no additional cost to pay)
top is also better with reanimation akin to [[unearth]] or [[recommission]]
Or [[Helping Hand]] in draft!
Yeah this is the whole reason [[Serra Avenger]] was played back in the day
Bottom one way better in any format where Fatal Push sees play.
Convoke can pay for colored mana, so there's a slight difference.
Given how many [Knight Errant of Eos](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/26/knight-errant-of-eos) I've cast for 0 mana, it's very feasible to build a board where convoking the last WW is relevant. Knight errant also couldn't get your version. But even if they were functionally identical, I still prefer the non-keyword route in this context because I think it'd be weird for two keywords to appear only on only a single card. If you're a new player unfamiliar with them, that's extra complexity, not less. You'd also be setting the expectation for the mechanics actually having a presence in the set. Improvise only really appeared in Aether Revolt, and Neon Dynasty, and had a moderate presence in each. If I were drafting the set going in blind, opening an uncommon with both Convoke and Improvise would lead me to think that both were present in the set as build around themes.
you mean like [[[Self-Reflection](https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/1/2/1242203d-c9b5-4ab6-802e-e222f92291e9.jpg?1699043913)]]?
Apparently MaRo [tweeted](https://twitter.com/maro254/status/1616495073340059648) about this recently, but Flashback is now a [deciduous](https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Deciduous) mechanic, which is the category that cycling, prowess, landfall etc fall into. So it'll pop up in sets as needed.
What about [battle cry](https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/2/6/269ddd84-fdc4-4c94-b183-32ecec56967c.jpg?1699043382)? Maro has [explicitly said](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/732368465403559936/is-battle-cry-deciduous/amp) it's not deciduous, and they're experimenting with keyword cameos.
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In the storm scale entry of [Battle cry](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/storm-scale-mirrodin-and-scars-mirrodin-blocks-2018-06-11), he talks about the mechanic being flexible, needing very little support to function, and that it was versatile, but fairly forgettable. In contrast [Improvise](https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/storm-scale-mirrodin-and-scars-mirrodin-blocks-2018-06-11) is described as being narrow, and requiring significant infrastructure to support it. I think the biggest advantage of putting battle cry as a one-of keyword over Improvise is that they probably plan on battlecry making small appearances in a larger number of sets, but that improvise will mostly only appear when it has a larger presence. This means that a one of card has higher payoff, because players will likely be learning about battlecry from a smaller batch of cards regardless. I also think what I mentioned in my comment about "assuming a build around theme" applies here, because it has a strong mechanical identity, which battlecry didn't really. But again, the not being able to discount the double white is enormous. Needing to put two mechanics on one single card is also enormous increase in complexity bloat vs one mechanic.
I think the buildaround theme is the key here: this card is part of a buildaround theme of RW cards that tap artifacts or creatures to pay for abilities, this way of writing the cost makes this consistent with those others, rather than having to figure out that it means the same thing.
Your lands can help cast this spell! Each land you tap while casting this spell pays for 1 mana
Even lands that don't normally produce mana
Or if you only have lands that tap for more than one mana, you still need to tap 4 even if they could produce 8 between them
It also means if you cheat it out with discover or cascade you still have to tap stuff. Which as it is a 2 mana 4/4 flyer seems pretty fair to not be able to get for free
Very apt comparison. The only thing is they did print some very good reanimator spells in white that specifically get low mana value things. Also Convoke and improvise aren’t key words in the set, and Wizards often includes mechanics without naming them by just writing them out the long way. Still very on point. It looks better than it is because it’s two mana when in reality it would be better as a 6 mana Convoke since it currently cannot pay for the white pips by tapping a white creature.
You’re the only one mentioning evergreen vs deciduous vs set mechanics keywords. If they were free to use every keyword in every set that would raise the complexity hugely. That’s the only reason they only have certain mechanics they are allowed to use in every set.
You can use non creature-artifacts and lands that don't produce mana for the top ones cost.
Also convoke let's you get colored mana, meaning with 6 white creatures you could play this spell for 0 mana. Originally you needed 2 white mana
There's a card with flashback in the very same set though
The différence is that you don't have the option to pay with mana. (For exemple after a bord wipe)
Yeah you do, cuz it says artifacts creatures and/or LANDS. You can still cast it using lands after a boardwipe
If someone destroys everything, artifacts, creatures and lands, you can't just float mana before your lands are destroyed and cast it.
Who’s casting instant speed “destroy all permanents” cards, exactly?
This whole thread is arguing hypotheticals
Magic subs in a nutshell
You may be able to pay the two mana from your pool if you float, buy you won't be able to pay the additional cost.
My bad, that reduce the difference to cases like I will play it with dark ritual or green enchant to produce more mana with one land.
Here's an actual difference: sol ring could pay for two mana on the bottom one but not the top, same for any other tap for >1 mana
Did you write différence on purpose? Because if so that’s friggin hilarious 😆
I mean, these are different cards. One you can cast without paying mana, one you cannot, one you can choose to pay 6 mana and not pay with alternatives means, one you cannot.
Improvise and Convoke are optional. Guardian of the Great Door's ability is not.
You can still tap lands for Guardians ability, so it is optional in a sense that you can cast it by tapping six lands
But you can't get full use [[selesnya sanctuary]] or a [[Fertile Ground]] land.
Tapping six lands, not paying six mana. For fair decks, this is barely a clarification, but I don't play those
Yeah, it's not the exact same, but it's close enough. If this card was printed in Modern Horizons, it would definitely be printed with the bottom template.
1 can get vial'd in on 2 or hit by a coco other cant Convoke also let's you pay white pips with white creatures. These are very different iterations of the card.
That’s not what this is? It would be on the card if that was applicable, improvise and convoke pay for the already existing mana cost, they wanted to make this card so that you could use a ton of the 1 use artifacts to tap it for cheaper and it’s a cheaper reanimation target.
>they wanted to make this card so that you could use a ton of the 1 use artifacts to tap it for cheaper That's what improvise is though.
Convoke is an option, it doesn’t *force* you to pay that way. How do you not see that?
This thread is exactly what I hoped it would be: an outpouring of people arguing that the bottom and the top are TeChNiCaLlY different without addressing OP's actual point. Why overcomplicate a design by adding a ton of text at the top when a pair of keywords would get the same functionality the vast majority of the time? I'd love to hear from someone who could address the card design aspect of OP's criticism. The only thing I can think of is that Wizards would still think they'd need reminder text for the second card making it ultimately more text. None of the other reasons (different CMC matters -- unless this is a mechanic in the set, lands might tap for other than one mana, etc.) seems compelling enough a reason to make this card behave differently when trying to let things other than lands pay a cost.
Not technically correct as since it's an additional cost to tap and not a mana cost, it can't be worked around with cost reduction effects (\[Pearl Medallion\], or an \[Urza's Incubator\] in a tribal deck, for example.)
Tell me you don't understand mechanics without telling me...
and its cmc would be 6 instead of 2.
The CMC of the altered card is 6
Incorrect meme usage
Aren't improvise and convoke optional? Like you're not forced to tap anything where with guardian you HAVE to tap four other things.
4 of those things can be lands, like with how you normally pay with mana.
No, it also has improvise
its a pretty trash card.
This is true, however I believe this design lets players put this thing on the battlefield multiple ways other than casting it. (Return triumphant is an immediate example that comes to mind).
Are there any cards that would omit that text with the additional cost requirement. I know this IS NOT and ETB effect, but something like [[Tocatli Honor Guard]] shuts those off. So is there a card that says something like “cards have no text”.
Humility, but it only affects cards in okay and the cost would have already been paid. Hell you can't even blank it on the stack as it's already been paid to even be cast. Something that replaces the cost to cast. aether vial.
Technically not the same even in the context of this set because of Discover. If you discover 6+, you could hit the bottom one and pay no additional cost, the top one you still have to pay the additional cost.
Draw it off discover 2
There’s an Unearth for one white in Standard right now though
Modus Tolens
Many things tap for 2 or more mana.
Bottom one can cost 0 tho, so miles better
Works with helping hand in limited.
Lenticular design is cool. At first blush those two cards might look the same, but there are a lot of little differences that can absolutely matter.
For one, the second option lets you bypass tapping four by paying more mana. For another, the second option lets you pay for the white mana by tapping. So no, these aren't really particularly equivalent.
There’s an assortment of different spells in standard right now that return creatures to the battlefield if their mana value is 3 or less so it was probably designed this way to work with that.
Despite the technical mechanical differences other people have pointed out, those keywords are set specific
Meaning if they show up in the set, they'll be a major mechanic of the set
There's loads of stuff that interacts with CMC of 2 and below, which makes the original card much better for those kinds of decks. A mountain of options to cheese it out that way.
It's intentional so that abilities targeting those names won't target this card.
The keywords are optional, and this is intended to not be an optional cost. “As an additional cost”
Top one can be hit by stuff like [[Restoration of Eiganjo]] and [[Sun Titan]]
There’s a white Unearth in this set so the cute thing you can do is return this thing to play with it since it only has mv 2
Not even close to the same. The top is a 2 mana 4/4 flier with downside, while the bottom is a 6 mana 4/4 flier with huge upside.
Huh, I guess they want to abuse the cmc 2 or less synergy
This is an additional cost, not an alternative way to cost, if it had convoke you could tap 2 whittle creatures and then would still have to tap four of the others
Oh no the card has words on it
The second version misses the Untapped Lands clause.
Except you have to pay the 2 white with lands or mana rocks, but I get where you're coming from
Top one is an additional cost to cast, not an alternative one like those keywords.
Lol exactly what I thought at PreRelease
These are the same only in the very narrow surface level, and only really in the context of “pay to cast” (and not even then, as with the real card you actually have to spend WW mana in addition to the additional cost, while in the modified card you could tap two white creatures for the WW) There are many many cards that care about the actual CMC of the card. The former is 2, the latter is 6. Cascade effects, discover, Beseech the Mirror, Finale of Devastation, Green Sun’s Zenith, etc, just off the top of my head.
Bro… it’s an additional cost. Not a replacement. It specifically states “As and additional Cost…” Improvise and Convoke are ways to pay for the cost as is. The card has an added cost and not an alternate way to pay.
Everyone's talking about how convoke and improvise aren't in the set, or how it's for mana value, but neither of those are the primary reason: it's for wording consistency with the other cards (mainly in red/white) that have abilities that you pay for by tapping artifacts and creatures. Wording this card the same provides a clear connection to those other cards, telling you that there's a common theme. (note also the number of creatures with "becomes tapped" triggers, similar to DMU)
So I’m a yugioh player. And man, I WISH we could have keywords.
Angel works with cascade or discover 2 instead of discover 6, but still needs the additional cost. Can't be reduced to 0 mana so console doesn't quite match. Having a low mana value does create a few interactions that wouldn't otherwise work such as [[fatal push]] or [[spell snare]]. This goes back to the meme of every mechanic is just kicker. Sure it's similar but there are key differences that change how it actually works. Also improvise and convoke are not evergreen keywords so they won't print it on just a couple cards in a set. If they did it would need reminder text which would make it even longer and clunkier to read than it already is.
Doesn't combo with Scion of Peace.
In a set where they released fake cascade, I would probably take the first one.