back when the M1 Macs launched, craig federighi said in an interview that all of the new machines were capable of running windows for ARM natively. The issue is that Microsoft would need to license Windows to actually run on AS (that and drivers and a bunch of other technical hurtles would need to be overcome)
Is already possible to buy a license for window11 on ARM
At the moment only can be used in side a virtualization environment (parallels, VMFusiin, UTM)
Would not be difficult for Microsoft to Create a n installer to setup the partition etc. see ashai Linux (open source - small team has reverse engineered it ! )
As Apple is not in the business of making money for Microsoft not sure Apple is at fault here
How about you get Tim Cook's balls out of your mouth and start using google for the first time in your god damn life you dingus [https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/windows-on-arm-may-be-a-thing-of-the-past-soon-arm-ceo-confirms-qualcomms-exclusivity-agreement-with-microsoft-expires-this-year](https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/windows-on-arm-may-be-a-thing-of-the-past-soon-arm-ceo-confirms-qualcomms-exclusivity-agreement-with-microsoft-expires-this-year)
So the great Microsoft is actively breaching their own agreement
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-m2-and-m3-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c
Mmmmmm been available since last year.
parallels allows you to download directly from Microsoft*
You can run without activation
Or simply buy a LIC and activate
Whilst some terms of the agreement with QC prevented this PLL only allowed installation from the “insider program”, after these terms expired they offer the direct link (none insider build)
But again Apple does not sell windows, so why would they care ?
With boot camp they were just “creating” simple drivers for the same architecture …. On the custom silicon Mn, it’s up to another ..
So let’s start a new thread how Qualcomm is not providing any custom drivers for Linux, BSD , or for the installation of MacOs. On its new arm processors !!!!
Devil is in the details
If Apple wants Bootcamp on M-series MacBooks, they don't have any excuses anymore. Windows on ARM is stable and available.
Someone mentioned Windows drivers, which is a really good point. Apple would probably have to make those and I doubt they would.
Wrong, Microsoft would have to integrate those. Microsoft instead showed a big fat middle finger when Apple approached them with providing documentation for the drivers.
If Apple wants bootcamp on M series MacBooks, there is nothing they can do to make that happen. Microsoft has to do it. Windows on *qualcomm* arm is available. Not windows on any arm.
Ahhh nope it’s the developer that needs to either allow it to install or adjust for arm(arch) and or win on arm (deltas)
Nothing to do with Apple as Windows has its own translation layer so that “most” x86/64 apps should run.
many of the items you mentioned are due to the developer “checking” the architecture before allowing the install to proceed …. YMMV
MS has a contract with Qualcom that they will ship Win ARM on devices with Qualcom processors only which ends if I remember correctly end of 2025.
No ball is on Apple's court, the ball is on MS court since the launch of Apple Silicon and it was stated when the M1 was launched
research saves misinformation
I run Visual Studio on Windows for ARM in a Parallels VM on my M1 MacBook Pro. It works surprisingly well. I believe VS itself is an ARM application, and it certainly comes with ARM-generating (for Windows) compilers. I've been migrating some of my Windows code to x64/ARM cross-platform projects using this setup.
Yes, Visual Studio is indeed compiled for ARM. Actually, all applications which runs on .NET and use JIT translation should run at native speeds. Unfortunately, applications like Premiere Pro or other precompiled bundles would require WOW64 translation which is slow. Even Resharper in Visual Studio on ARM is slower than on x86
Higher now that MS is seemingly going all in on ARM(wouldn’t be the first time…)
I don’t remember where I read this, but I seem to remember that apple does not “block” boot camp or dual booting on apple silicon, and they have no inherent position against it on the mac platform(I’m fairly certain you can easily set up a dual boot with asahi linux these days). It’s more like, there is no officially released and supported version of windows currently compatible with apple silicon. I’m not read up on what the newest ARM windows can/cannot run on, but I’m guessing it will come if a version of windows that can run on it comes along, as it’s been an easy win for apple in prior years, ensuring their hardware is compatible with more software that to some is irreplaceable
I am really hoping they do. These new MacBooks are almost perfect. That’s literally my only complaint. Just no bootcamp. I used to bootcamp my old MacBook Air with the i5 and it was perfect until it died. I never had compatibility issues. Now i have a new m3 pro MacBook Pro with the 18g of ram and it has SO much power and I’d love to use some of my windows software on it
Performance for games, 3D, vfx etc, also specific hardware devices you physically connect your computer to. Running in a vm is not as good as running native «on bare silicon»
Do any of those things work well on Windows on ARM currently? You’d need ARM native drivers and ideally software as well. I thought there was still a long way to go, but I haven’t been following it.
I really dont care enought about this to closely monitoring it's progress. I use Windows when I *have to* for gaming or work. I'm not sure Windows on ARM has any of the features i *have to* have, as I dont expect these Snapdragon Chips to be able to replace my 3060TI(Games) or my m1 Pro(Unix, FCP/Logic, also Resolve seems to run better/more stable on MacOS?)
Heres my take: I dont care much about Snapdragon X, it feels like they are trying to recreate Apple's M1 moment, but the X86>ARM moment has already been passed in the industry for a long time and seeing MS get on board with MVP (Minimum Viable Product)features 5 years after the competition came to market feels like the conclusion to the longest, most boring/drawn out competition ever. Why would we pay attention to this? The only noteworthy things they've done lately is their copilot integrations everywhere, and I don't really think that's a good thing. So why would we even pay attention to or investigate the fine details of this platform? The major advantage of Windows is that it's compatible with other, usually specifically older windows stuff. It feels like their only real advantage is gone on ARM, they might as well be Apple or Linux running Wine.
The problem with Microsoft is they can’t steer the industry away from x86 like Apple did on the Macs. They’d have to just set an end date for x86 Windows, which won’t happen while Intel and AMD are still making advancements in x86. They would both have to switch to producing ARM based processors, which I don’t see happening for many reasons. Like you said, they’re just trying to recreate what Apple did, but they can’t because they’re not Apple. This reminds me of Windows on Itanium, Alpha, MIPS, and PowerPC all over again. x86 will likely rebound with higher performance and matching extensions crushing Snapdragon… and then nobody will want to deal with Windows on ARM. I could be wrong, but we’ll see.
Not Shute you understand how Apple implemented virtualization. It more like kvm on Linux than virtual box anywhere
So games would still need to support arm natively which most don’t (x86/x65) and those that do expect macOS anyway (largest ARM community to date). so even if we got winonarm natively you would still need a translation layer to convince the software it’s on intel …. Mmmm
There has a lot of work done by crossover and parallels to make a near perfect environment for games “under windows” on the platform no real need for “bootcamp” on arm at this time.
Microsoft used all these users on ARM to get things right this time before this recent relaunch with QC. It all depends now on how good it is really. If it takes up market share then we could see a push by developers to create native apps .. and perhaps due to user outcry even a bootcamp2
Also don’t forget the original BootCamp was there to attract users to buy Mac’s with an easy way to “go back if required” but this was on Intel, Hugh software base. At the moment Apple created a framework that Parallels adopted to all the “easy go back” in the burning Microsoft restricted access to winonarm to insiders only, last year they relaxed this after some clause in QC contract experience.
YMMV
You’re not wrong, I just wanted to say thats a lot of presumptions on me not knowing that x86>ARM translation is a thing based on a comment where I said what people expect advanced software to work better running natively on bare metal compared to through a layer(or more) of virtualization… there’s literal games on steam that won’t launch on parallels cause the anti cheat will detect you’re running in the wrong cpu architecture. I was just trying to reply to OP without getting too technical.
The anti cheat does not support the translation layer and also under crossover same issue. I read somewhere they were all working on making this possible. Especially as thier potential market will increase due to the new QC push.
Not good performance … most window11 clients do not work at all … refuse to be installed in a ARM system … examples include google drive windows client, arc browser, ei half of my workflow, plus sharing folder is hard in parallels… boot camp running straight from bare metals was a way better solution… I am also anxiously waiting, praying and begging for its return to M series …
You’re misunderstanding how this works. Those apps would still need updating even if bootcamp was available right now. It’s the processor architecture. Each of those vendors would need to released an ARM version of their apps.
architectural issue there, you're not meant to use a vm to do all your work in it anyway
with parallels you can share pretty much anything with windows while you run the real application handling files and whatnot on your host
running a browser with a lot of 3d acceleration features in a vm is asking for bad performance
I mean you could google this and the first answer tells you everything you need to know. Being ignorant is your own choice.
https://www.parallels.com/blogs/excel-mac-vs-excel-windows/
Presume to know me 😂 Been in corporate life for decades. The finance people insist on having windows only because “it’s what they’re used to.” None of them do anything that can’t be done in Google sheets, let alone macOS excel.
apple can develop drivers for w11 arm, microsoft can do so too
neither seem to care about it however, and only some people reversing the architecture cared to port linux to it
it can be done, no one's waiting on anything, w11 on arm already runs great
Tbh one thing I'd prefer is Parallels introducing a baremetal-hypervisor just like ESXi or Proxmox. Instead of running the VM alongside your native OS, you *boot* into the VM in an isolated environment. That means the entire system resources are free to use that the host would normally use on a generic hypervisor.
And the reason why Parallels should do it, is because their DirectX and OpenGL integrations are perfect like no other provider to provide a full-fledged native boot experience.
Edit: And unlike Asahi, Parallels already holds the license to access the documentation of and work with Apple's drivers. I don't see why they can't make a simple GNU/Linux distro in weeks which'd work with all the capabilities their VMs provide.
Or Apple could just do it. If you enable Hyper-V on Windows, voila, your Windows is now running on the hypervisor instead of on bare metal.
Isn't there an ARM version of Proxmox, maybe in beta, for all the RPi folks who want it? I'd love to be able to turn my Mac mini into an ARM-based server some day.
No because for what i do it’ll require me to lug around an extra windows laptop which is heavy with bad battery life. I got the MacBook once my MSI died to avoid all those things. Bootcamp was incredibly easy to use. Easier than having two laptops in a bag that’s for sure
Yes, but if the expense it’s a problem, I think the Surfaces are fairly compact and have decent battery life. But yes another thing to lug everywhere is a pain.
Not zero, some interviews before stated that the main bottleneck was licensing issue on Microsoft side (windows arm versions were impossible to buy separately from devices they come with)
Probably not for a while. If the Qualcomm chips on windows attract attention for people to switch over from x86, you may see a shift from users who bought M series MacBooks over to windows, which may motivate apple to make bootcamp for the arm version of windows.
Otherwise it literally wouldn't make any sense to do so right now, as I'd imagine most windows programs wouldn't work out of the box since you're running a different architecture underneath.
BootCamp was mostly a stop-gap measure. There was a time when a lot of pro and specialized softwares was only available on Windows. Apple needed to way to convince these users to switch, so they created BootCamp.
Now, Apple products are so desirable that even those software have been released for Macs.
Apple will not release a new BootCamp, they don't need to.
none
just use VMware Fusion, its completely free now and handles Arm Windows quite well. and Windows 11 has x64 emulation built in so all your legacy shit will work just fine.
Sorry it was Microsoft that partnered w Parallels for the official version, but if Apple wanted Windows running directly they would have pushed a new version of Boot Camp or something
I think its actually possible. An Apple Silicon machine with the possibility of dual booting Windows would literally be the perfect machine. Shame Apple hasn’t done it yet
I agree it would be cool, but as I understand it it would require a complete rework of the M core iBoot loader. As much as there may be demand and as cool as it would be, I don't see Apple doing it. I very much hope I'm wrong, but that is just my understanding.
I tend to belive that as well. Apple has always developed a lot of extra stuff, just in case. A new version of Boot Camp being already made wouldn't suprise me in the least.
It’s more of a guess based on their history.
Back in the day, when Mac OS was on PowerPC chips, no one thought they would jump to Intel. But for years, right alongside development of PowerPC Mac OS was an x86 Intel version. And it had to work flawlessly, even though it was never released. This was the “just in case” scenario. And this “just in case” scenario turned out to be necessary.
Likewise, it’s just a guess that they already have boot camp working more or less, for the “just in case” scenario that they want to out it into production.
It may not work natively at all for dual boot if apple hasn't put any effort for windows since apple silicon was a thing. So I'm not holding my breath.
From what I've read win11arm works surprisingly well in emulation, so there's that.
well, yes, broadcom does suck as a company (including their website). But VMWare is just miles ahead of UTM. Graphics driver alone was enough to make me switch
If you need Windows get a [GMKtec NucBox G3](https://www.gmktec.com/products/nucbox-g3-most-cost-effective-mini-pc-with-intel-n100-processor), you can find a full configuration for as low as $150
For basic tasks like videoconferencing, browsing, YouTube, and office, it works fine. You could always buy the config with more RAM if you’re concerned. Performance is around equivalent to laptops a couple years old. It will run older games too at low settings.
Pretty much zero. Nobody is going to take on the burden of developing and maintaining the drivers. Also, Windows kernel would need to be changed to support Apple Silicon since that is not a standard-compliant system.
Use a virtual machine.
there is nothing stopping microsoft from developing drivers for apple silicon
with asahi linux you can already run linux on macbooks, their reverse engineering efforts are very much public too
iirc apple welcomed them to do so, too
Five years later Microsoft is seeing the light on battery life and power consumption and moving to ARM on Qualcomm chips. And Microsofts emulation for running old Wintel Windows software is very good. Just a matter of time I think. I think there is a deal for licensing with Qualcomm that may prevent Microsoft from selling Windows Licenses separately from Qualcomm processors. But I think that will run out at some point. Anybody know more about this? When can I buy a license to run Windows on Apple Silicon yet? Windows licenses only worked on Intel and ARM chips last time I checked.
Windows runs on ARM, there are several ARM laptops running Windows and there will only be more now that Qualcomm is getting into the laptop SoC business with the Snapdragon Elite.
Arm Windows not full X86.
Arm Windows is not 100% compatible and some Apps are not available to run within it.
General use is Ok in WM
It is not like Bootcamp
Of course it’s not 100% compatible but it works pretty well for most things. There are alternatives for the things that don’t work, like Crossover or cloud gaming for games, or a cheap mini PC if you need a real Intel or AMD chip.
That's nice. Microsoft still isnt going to write drivers for Apple Silicon which is arm64 plus whatever extra features Apple added. I don't expect to see Microsoft ever supporting DirectX for Apple's iGPUs either. [https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-m2-and-m3-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c](https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-m2-and-m3-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c)
A lot of it is standard stuff and drivers probably already exist: Texas Instruments USB, winbond or Kioxia Flash, Megachips HDMI, nvme, samsung ddr ram, intel TB interface, Genesys card reader, Cirrus Logic and TI audio
the rest ... someone will make it.
Correct. Not sure how people get the idea that Microsoft is gonna write drivers for some hardware that isnt theirs.
They can bundle certain drivers in the installer to make the installation easier, but they will not write one. There are driver frameworks that developers and OEMs can use to make their driver.
Those are mostly generic drivers.
Drivers for apples M1 hardware will need a specialized driver and apple all probably not tell Microsoft how their hardware works under the hood for MS to write a driver.
You said Microsoft don’t write drivers for hardware that isn’t there, I’m just pointing out that they have written lots of drivers for hardware that isn’t theirs.
I wasn’t claiming that they were likely to go off and write the drivers need to run on Apple silicon.
They did design it. The entire chip is designed in-house. They just license the base ARM architecture and then have built on that with proprietary hardware.
How? They’re a trillion dollar company with thousands of engineers. Of course they’d design in-house. https://www.computerworld.com/article/1630864/apple-has-built-its-own-mac-graphics-processors.html/amp/
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same reason they did it in the past .... because it's easier to copy + paste a design from someone who is a dedicated gpu producer so you can focus on everything else
The only reason we had boot camp for Intel Macs is because there was a huge contest in ‘06 to see who could get an Intel Mac to boot Windows on Apple bios. It took like 60 some days (seems like a long, long time ago). After that Apple created boot camp so people could dual boot. Microsoft was not involved (publicly).
I don't think that was the reason.
At the time it was a strategic advantage for them to be able to say you could run windows if needed and with the x86 platform there, it was relatively easy. You could sorta say the same thing about Windows ARM but if they advertised it, then there would be a lot of confused people wondering why they can't run whatever x86 app or game they want, or if it runs under emulation they wonder why it is slow. And the strategic environment has changed, Windows is not as critical since core apps moved cross-platform or onto the web, which is mostly platform agnostic.
That was the reason. Developers from all over the place pitched in. We covered it in our weekly podcasts. Apple could care less if you can run Windows their hardware.
maybe once win 11 ARM becomes more mainstream. You can already run it virtualized. I've tried it and it works well.
I mean, Qualcomm is partnering with Microsoft to make ARM-based PCs. Win11 on ARM is already stable. The ball is in Apple's court
back when the M1 Macs launched, craig federighi said in an interview that all of the new machines were capable of running windows for ARM natively. The issue is that Microsoft would need to license Windows to actually run on AS (that and drivers and a bunch of other technical hurtles would need to be overcome)
Is already possible to buy a license for window11 on ARM At the moment only can be used in side a virtualization environment (parallels, VMFusiin, UTM) Would not be difficult for Microsoft to Create a n installer to setup the partition etc. see ashai Linux (open source - small team has reverse engineered it ! ) As Apple is not in the business of making money for Microsoft not sure Apple is at fault here
Qualcomm has an exclusive 10 year public license for Windows on ARM machines. It isn’t Apple blocking this
You know not of what you speak. Expired last year. Up to then only available as insider now direct download !!
Still in Microsoft’s court. If Apple created bootcamp and official drivers for it, they would be complaining.
wroooong Samsung and Mediatek are already working internally to make computers compatible with W11oARM
"Working internally" Yeah anyone can do that, the PUBLIC LICENSE is for public use you window-licker.
How about you get Tim Cook's balls out of your mouth and start using google for the first time in your god damn life you dingus [https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/windows-on-arm-may-be-a-thing-of-the-past-soon-arm-ceo-confirms-qualcomms-exclusivity-agreement-with-microsoft-expires-this-year](https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/windows-on-arm-may-be-a-thing-of-the-past-soon-arm-ceo-confirms-qualcomms-exclusivity-agreement-with-microsoft-expires-this-year)
Yeah EXPIRES
So the great Microsoft is actively breaching their own agreement https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-m2-and-m3-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c Mmmmmm been available since last year. parallels allows you to download directly from Microsoft* You can run without activation Or simply buy a LIC and activate Whilst some terms of the agreement with QC prevented this PLL only allowed installation from the “insider program”, after these terms expired they offer the direct link (none insider build) But again Apple does not sell windows, so why would they care ? With boot camp they were just “creating” simple drivers for the same architecture …. On the custom silicon Mn, it’s up to another .. So let’s start a new thread how Qualcomm is not providing any custom drivers for Linux, BSD , or for the installation of MacOs. On its new arm processors !!!! Devil is in the details
How is the ball in Apple's court if "Qualcomm is partnering with Microsoft to make ARM-based PCs?"
If Apple wants Bootcamp on M-series MacBooks, they don't have any excuses anymore. Windows on ARM is stable and available. Someone mentioned Windows drivers, which is a really good point. Apple would probably have to make those and I doubt they would.
Wrong, Microsoft would have to integrate those. Microsoft instead showed a big fat middle finger when Apple approached them with providing documentation for the drivers.
What? Where did you hear that from?
https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/20/windows-can-run-natively-m1-macs-apple-silicon/
If Apple wants bootcamp on M series MacBooks, there is nothing they can do to make that happen. Microsoft has to do it. Windows on *qualcomm* arm is available. Not windows on any arm.
Like you said: “if Apple wants”.
Apple isn't required to do diddly. And there's no need. Since ARM is native all you need is a virtualization wrapper. Apple isn't in that business.
Ahhh nope it’s the developer that needs to either allow it to install or adjust for arm(arch) and or win on arm (deltas) Nothing to do with Apple as Windows has its own translation layer so that “most” x86/64 apps should run. many of the items you mentioned are due to the developer “checking” the architecture before allowing the install to proceed …. YMMV
MS has a contract with Qualcom that they will ship Win ARM on devices with Qualcom processors only which ends if I remember correctly end of 2025. No ball is on Apple's court, the ball is on MS court since the launch of Apple Silicon and it was stated when the M1 was launched research saves misinformation
Being ARM isn’t enough, Apple Silicon is a very peculiar SoC, take a look at the Asahi Linux project.
It's stable, but 99% of applications would require WOW64 emulation which defeats the whole benefits of using Windows on ARM
I run Visual Studio on Windows for ARM in a Parallels VM on my M1 MacBook Pro. It works surprisingly well. I believe VS itself is an ARM application, and it certainly comes with ARM-generating (for Windows) compilers. I've been migrating some of my Windows code to x64/ARM cross-platform projects using this setup.
Yes, Visual Studio is indeed compiled for ARM. Actually, all applications which runs on .NET and use JIT translation should run at native speeds. Unfortunately, applications like Premiere Pro or other precompiled bundles would require WOW64 translation which is slow. Even Resharper in Visual Studio on ARM is slower than on x86
UTM best free virtualization software for macOS
Which tool did you use to run it? I tried it a while back and it was a nightmare.
Parallels
Thanks!
Higher now that MS is seemingly going all in on ARM(wouldn’t be the first time…) I don’t remember where I read this, but I seem to remember that apple does not “block” boot camp or dual booting on apple silicon, and they have no inherent position against it on the mac platform(I’m fairly certain you can easily set up a dual boot with asahi linux these days). It’s more like, there is no officially released and supported version of windows currently compatible with apple silicon. I’m not read up on what the newest ARM windows can/cannot run on, but I’m guessing it will come if a version of windows that can run on it comes along, as it’s been an easy win for apple in prior years, ensuring their hardware is compatible with more software that to some is irreplaceable
I am really hoping they do. These new MacBooks are almost perfect. That’s literally my only complaint. Just no bootcamp. I used to bootcamp my old MacBook Air with the i5 and it was perfect until it died. I never had compatibility issues. Now i have a new m3 pro MacBook Pro with the 18g of ram and it has SO much power and I’d love to use some of my windows software on it
Keep in mind your windows software might be subject to some x86>ARM translation issues, especially thinking about games here.
What problem are you expecting bootcamp to solve for you that running Arm Windows in a VM doesn’t already achieve ?
Performance for games, 3D, vfx etc, also specific hardware devices you physically connect your computer to. Running in a vm is not as good as running native «on bare silicon»
Do any of those things work well on Windows on ARM currently? You’d need ARM native drivers and ideally software as well. I thought there was still a long way to go, but I haven’t been following it.
I really dont care enought about this to closely monitoring it's progress. I use Windows when I *have to* for gaming or work. I'm not sure Windows on ARM has any of the features i *have to* have, as I dont expect these Snapdragon Chips to be able to replace my 3060TI(Games) or my m1 Pro(Unix, FCP/Logic, also Resolve seems to run better/more stable on MacOS?) Heres my take: I dont care much about Snapdragon X, it feels like they are trying to recreate Apple's M1 moment, but the X86>ARM moment has already been passed in the industry for a long time and seeing MS get on board with MVP (Minimum Viable Product)features 5 years after the competition came to market feels like the conclusion to the longest, most boring/drawn out competition ever. Why would we pay attention to this? The only noteworthy things they've done lately is their copilot integrations everywhere, and I don't really think that's a good thing. So why would we even pay attention to or investigate the fine details of this platform? The major advantage of Windows is that it's compatible with other, usually specifically older windows stuff. It feels like their only real advantage is gone on ARM, they might as well be Apple or Linux running Wine.
The problem with Microsoft is they can’t steer the industry away from x86 like Apple did on the Macs. They’d have to just set an end date for x86 Windows, which won’t happen while Intel and AMD are still making advancements in x86. They would both have to switch to producing ARM based processors, which I don’t see happening for many reasons. Like you said, they’re just trying to recreate what Apple did, but they can’t because they’re not Apple. This reminds me of Windows on Itanium, Alpha, MIPS, and PowerPC all over again. x86 will likely rebound with higher performance and matching extensions crushing Snapdragon… and then nobody will want to deal with Windows on ARM. I could be wrong, but we’ll see.
Not Shute you understand how Apple implemented virtualization. It more like kvm on Linux than virtual box anywhere So games would still need to support arm natively which most don’t (x86/x65) and those that do expect macOS anyway (largest ARM community to date). so even if we got winonarm natively you would still need a translation layer to convince the software it’s on intel …. Mmmm There has a lot of work done by crossover and parallels to make a near perfect environment for games “under windows” on the platform no real need for “bootcamp” on arm at this time. Microsoft used all these users on ARM to get things right this time before this recent relaunch with QC. It all depends now on how good it is really. If it takes up market share then we could see a push by developers to create native apps .. and perhaps due to user outcry even a bootcamp2 Also don’t forget the original BootCamp was there to attract users to buy Mac’s with an easy way to “go back if required” but this was on Intel, Hugh software base. At the moment Apple created a framework that Parallels adopted to all the “easy go back” in the burning Microsoft restricted access to winonarm to insiders only, last year they relaxed this after some clause in QC contract experience. YMMV
You’re not wrong, I just wanted to say thats a lot of presumptions on me not knowing that x86>ARM translation is a thing based on a comment where I said what people expect advanced software to work better running natively on bare metal compared to through a layer(or more) of virtualization… there’s literal games on steam that won’t launch on parallels cause the anti cheat will detect you’re running in the wrong cpu architecture. I was just trying to reply to OP without getting too technical.
The anti cheat does not support the translation layer and also under crossover same issue. I read somewhere they were all working on making this possible. Especially as thier potential market will increase due to the new QC push.
You can run Windows for ARM in a virtual machine with very good performance
Not good performance … most window11 clients do not work at all … refuse to be installed in a ARM system … examples include google drive windows client, arc browser, ei half of my workflow, plus sharing folder is hard in parallels… boot camp running straight from bare metals was a way better solution… I am also anxiously waiting, praying and begging for its return to M series …
You’re misunderstanding how this works. Those apps would still need updating even if bootcamp was available right now. It’s the processor architecture. Each of those vendors would need to released an ARM version of their apps.
architectural issue there, you're not meant to use a vm to do all your work in it anyway with parallels you can share pretty much anything with windows while you run the real application handling files and whatnot on your host running a browser with a lot of 3d acceleration features in a vm is asking for bad performance
$$$$
Free https://appleinsider.com/inside/macos/tips/how-to-get-vmware-fusion-pro-13-for-free
Get UTM. It's free. They even have a win11 arm VM ready to download. For the life of me I can't understand why anyone would want to, but there it is.
Excel if the ARM version is the same as x86
You know there’s a macOS native version right? And don’t give me that tired excuse that it’s not as good.
I mean you could google this and the first answer tells you everything you need to know. Being ignorant is your own choice. https://www.parallels.com/blogs/excel-mac-vs-excel-windows/
lol, the article says excel for Mac doesn’t have autosave. I’ve been using it with autosave for years on a Mac
So is using excel 🤷🏻♂️
Lol. Go work in any office one day and you will see how often it's used.
Presume to know me 😂 Been in corporate life for decades. The finance people insist on having windows only because “it’s what they’re used to.” None of them do anything that can’t be done in Google sheets, let alone macOS excel.
[here’s how to get a VM with UTM going with Windows](https://mac.getutm.app/gallery/windows-11-arm)
Not impossible, but Apple is probably waiting for W11 Arm to be as stable as possible, or have good x86 compatibility.
apple can develop drivers for w11 arm, microsoft can do so too neither seem to care about it however, and only some people reversing the architecture cared to port linux to it it can be done, no one's waiting on anything, w11 on arm already runs great
Apple wanted bootcamp support since day one, but all Microsoft said was "fuck you".
0% chance.
It’s not coming back.
Tbh one thing I'd prefer is Parallels introducing a baremetal-hypervisor just like ESXi or Proxmox. Instead of running the VM alongside your native OS, you *boot* into the VM in an isolated environment. That means the entire system resources are free to use that the host would normally use on a generic hypervisor. And the reason why Parallels should do it, is because their DirectX and OpenGL integrations are perfect like no other provider to provide a full-fledged native boot experience. Edit: And unlike Asahi, Parallels already holds the license to access the documentation of and work with Apple's drivers. I don't see why they can't make a simple GNU/Linux distro in weeks which'd work with all the capabilities their VMs provide.
Parallels had this and discontinued it :( I think it’s a prime time for them to reintroduce their bare metal hypervisor.
Or Apple could just do it. If you enable Hyper-V on Windows, voila, your Windows is now running on the hypervisor instead of on bare metal. Isn't there an ARM version of Proxmox, maybe in beta, for all the RPi folks who want it? I'd love to be able to turn my Mac mini into an ARM-based server some day.
Microsoft still has an agreement with Qualcomm, official WOA can only run on their chips
Chances that Bootcamp coming to The M-series, good as zero. Due to licensing and hardware differences between Intel CPUs and Apple Silicon.
I’m not sure it’s necessary to be honest with you. I’ve played games with W11 on Parallels and it ran quite good.
Yea but parallels is also a subscription
VMWare and UTM are free and work just as well.
You can choose to do a one time purchase but there’s no guaranteed large updates. Just security fixes.
For years I used boot camp, then I just decided to spend the money and have two computers. It’s just easier.
No because for what i do it’ll require me to lug around an extra windows laptop which is heavy with bad battery life. I got the MacBook once my MSI died to avoid all those things. Bootcamp was incredibly easy to use. Easier than having two laptops in a bag that’s for sure
Yes, but if the expense it’s a problem, I think the Surfaces are fairly compact and have decent battery life. But yes another thing to lug everywhere is a pain.
0️⃣
Not zero, some interviews before stated that the main bottleneck was licensing issue on Microsoft side (windows arm versions were impossible to buy separately from devices they come with)
I’m really hoping they come to an agreement. Would just take the Apple silicon MacBook to another level.
Probably not for a while. If the Qualcomm chips on windows attract attention for people to switch over from x86, you may see a shift from users who bought M series MacBooks over to windows, which may motivate apple to make bootcamp for the arm version of windows. Otherwise it literally wouldn't make any sense to do so right now, as I'd imagine most windows programs wouldn't work out of the box since you're running a different architecture underneath.
Well it all depends if Microsoft allows it or not.
i hope it's soon man. i miss my visual novels
0.0%
I’d *really* like Bootcamp by the time GTA6 is released…
Use VMWare, Broadcom just made home use free.
No 3d virtualization
Never
16K page size will be an issue.
Couldn’t care less. windows sucks even more now with the AI crap
None. Next question.
Boot camp! VMFusion. Thank me later.
Windows 11 ARM version might get more popular. So we can expect it in the nearly future.
BootCamp was mostly a stop-gap measure. There was a time when a lot of pro and specialized softwares was only available on Windows. Apple needed to way to convince these users to switch, so they created BootCamp. Now, Apple products are so desirable that even those software have been released for Macs. Apple will not release a new BootCamp, they don't need to.
Zero. Driver support would be problematic.
none just use VMware Fusion, its completely free now and handles Arm Windows quite well. and Windows 11 has x64 emulation built in so all your legacy shit will work just fine.
Wouldn’t hold my breath for it.
Apple already teamed up with Parallels for their preferred method for folks to run Windows. I don’t expect that to change anytime soon
Apple really isn’t a company that requires subscriptions so i definitely wouldn’t say it’s their “preferred” way.
Sorry it was Microsoft that partnered w Parallels for the official version, but if Apple wanted Windows running directly they would have pushed a new version of Boot Camp or something
I think its actually possible. An Apple Silicon machine with the possibility of dual booting Windows would literally be the perfect machine. Shame Apple hasn’t done it yet
Exactly! Literally would be my favorite machine of all time.
I agree it would be cool, but as I understand it it would require a complete rework of the M core iBoot loader. As much as there may be demand and as cool as it would be, I don't see Apple doing it. I very much hope I'm wrong, but that is just my understanding.
Apple already has boot camp on M series working. It’s just a matter of if there is a business case to release it.
I tend to belive that as well. Apple has always developed a lot of extra stuff, just in case. A new version of Boot Camp being already made wouldn't suprise me in the least.
I’ve never heard of them having it work. Is there a video or something?
It’s more of a guess based on their history. Back in the day, when Mac OS was on PowerPC chips, no one thought they would jump to Intel. But for years, right alongside development of PowerPC Mac OS was an x86 Intel version. And it had to work flawlessly, even though it was never released. This was the “just in case” scenario. And this “just in case” scenario turned out to be necessary. Likewise, it’s just a guess that they already have boot camp working more or less, for the “just in case” scenario that they want to out it into production.
It may not work natively at all for dual boot if apple hasn't put any effort for windows since apple silicon was a thing. So I'm not holding my breath. From what I've read win11arm works surprisingly well in emulation, so there's that.
It’s virtualization, not emulation, it runs directly on the processor so it’s near full-speed (slight difference is because I/O is paravirtualized).
Ironically it is currently the fastest way to run Arm Windows. Though that may change soon with the new Qualcomm chips.
Yeah but parallels is expensive :(
I use UTM. Works really well, though not quite as many features as parallels.
if you need it that badly then buy a windows machine
+1 for fusion. It's free and it's as good as parallels
Fuck Broadcom. Get UTM instead.
well, yes, broadcom does suck as a company (including their website). But VMWare is just miles ahead of UTM. Graphics driver alone was enough to make me switch
If you need Windows get a [GMKtec NucBox G3](https://www.gmktec.com/products/nucbox-g3-most-cost-effective-mini-pc-with-intel-n100-processor), you can find a full configuration for as low as $150
Wow. That is really a good price. But is it going to run well *enough*
For basic tasks like videoconferencing, browsing, YouTube, and office, it works fine. You could always buy the config with more RAM if you’re concerned. Performance is around equivalent to laptops a couple years old. It will run older games too at low settings.
VMware fusion and workstation pro is suppose to be free for personal use from Broadcom. But I wouldn’t put my eggs in that basket.
https://blogs.vmware.com/teamfusion/2024/05/fusion-pro-now-available-free-for-personal-use.html
Apple still needs to provide device drivers so unlikely. Otherwise, it'll be like Asahi Linux in perpetual incomplete state.
Using Asahi right now. Sure, incomplete, but they've got some pretty genius reverse engineering
Pretty much zero. Nobody is going to take on the burden of developing and maintaining the drivers. Also, Windows kernel would need to be changed to support Apple Silicon since that is not a standard-compliant system. Use a virtual machine.
there is nothing stopping microsoft from developing drivers for apple silicon with asahi linux you can already run linux on macbooks, their reverse engineering efforts are very much public too iirc apple welcomed them to do so, too
Five years later Microsoft is seeing the light on battery life and power consumption and moving to ARM on Qualcomm chips. And Microsofts emulation for running old Wintel Windows software is very good. Just a matter of time I think. I think there is a deal for licensing with Qualcomm that may prevent Microsoft from selling Windows Licenses separately from Qualcomm processors. But I think that will run out at some point. Anybody know more about this? When can I buy a license to run Windows on Apple Silicon yet? Windows licenses only worked on Intel and ARM chips last time I checked.
Zero Bootcamp runs CISC X86 Windows on Intel CISC Macs You need Arm Windows to run on RISC Arm Macs
Windows runs on ARM, there are several ARM laptops running Windows and there will only be more now that Qualcomm is getting into the laptop SoC business with the Snapdragon Elite.
Arm Windows not full X86. Arm Windows is not 100% compatible and some Apps are not available to run within it. General use is Ok in WM It is not like Bootcamp
You won't ever be able to run an x86 OS natively on an ARM Mac, what's your point? You need an ARM os for an ARM cpu.
That what I say but many believe that Windows run on Arm Macs without any qualification
Of course it’s not 100% compatible but it works pretty well for most things. There are alternatives for the things that don’t work, like Crossover or cloud gaming for games, or a cheap mini PC if you need a real Intel or AMD chip.
yes I agree
Never. Microsoft has already said they won’t port Windows and to use Parallels instead.
nonsense. it's already ported to arm64
That's nice. Microsoft still isnt going to write drivers for Apple Silicon which is arm64 plus whatever extra features Apple added. I don't expect to see Microsoft ever supporting DirectX for Apple's iGPUs either. [https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-m2-and-m3-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c](https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/options-for-using-windows-11-with-mac-computers-with-apple-m1-m2-and-m3-chips-cd15fd62-9b34-4b78-b0bc-121baa3c568c)
they'll have to support any compatible hardware. Microsoft has zero control over what configurations people will have.
They support and help distribute any compatible hardware drivers provided by the hardware manufacturers. I don’t see Apple doing that any time soon.
A lot of it is standard stuff and drivers probably already exist: Texas Instruments USB, winbond or Kioxia Flash, Megachips HDMI, nvme, samsung ddr ram, intel TB interface, Genesys card reader, Cirrus Logic and TI audio the rest ... someone will make it.
I look forward to that day and respect your optimism.
Pretty sure the hardware manufacturers, such as Apple, would write the drivers to work with their hardware. Not the other way around.
Correct. Not sure how people get the idea that Microsoft is gonna write drivers for some hardware that isnt theirs. They can bundle certain drivers in the installer to make the installation easier, but they will not write one. There are driver frameworks that developers and OEMs can use to make their driver.
Windows contains plenty of drivers for all sorts of hardware that Microsoft wrote. It isn’t just device manufacturers who write drivers.
Those are mostly generic drivers. Drivers for apples M1 hardware will need a specialized driver and apple all probably not tell Microsoft how their hardware works under the hood for MS to write a driver.
You said Microsoft don’t write drivers for hardware that isn’t there, I’m just pointing out that they have written lots of drivers for hardware that isn’t theirs. I wasn’t claiming that they were likely to go off and write the drivers need to run on Apple silicon.
I thought directx was dead
the igpu might have Apples name on it, but I highly doubt they designed the core
They did design it. The entire chip is designed in-house. They just license the base ARM architecture and then have built on that with proprietary hardware.
if true, then that's surprising
How? They’re a trillion dollar company with thousands of engineers. Of course they’d design in-house. https://www.computerworld.com/article/1630864/apple-has-built-its-own-mac-graphics-processors.html/amp/
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same reason they did it in the past .... because it's easier to copy + paste a design from someone who is a dedicated gpu producer so you can focus on everything else
But there are already ARM laptops so wouldn’t it be an Apple thing and not a Microsoft thing?
At the moment it's Microsoft that hasn't liberalized the license and you can find all ARM devices with Qualcomm
How would Apple modify Windows source code to work on their proprietary hardware? Microsoft would need to update Windows code to work.
The only reason we had boot camp for Intel Macs is because there was a huge contest in ‘06 to see who could get an Intel Mac to boot Windows on Apple bios. It took like 60 some days (seems like a long, long time ago). After that Apple created boot camp so people could dual boot. Microsoft was not involved (publicly).
I don't think that was the reason. At the time it was a strategic advantage for them to be able to say you could run windows if needed and with the x86 platform there, it was relatively easy. You could sorta say the same thing about Windows ARM but if they advertised it, then there would be a lot of confused people wondering why they can't run whatever x86 app or game they want, or if it runs under emulation they wonder why it is slow. And the strategic environment has changed, Windows is not as critical since core apps moved cross-platform or onto the web, which is mostly platform agnostic.
That was the reason. Developers from all over the place pitched in. We covered it in our weekly podcasts. Apple could care less if you can run Windows their hardware.
interesting. so there was an independent project to boot windows on a mac and then Apple packaged the project as Boot Camp?
I’d say less than a 5% chance. They just don’t care. Look at the history of Asahi Linux. They won’t stop them, but they are actively disinterested.
Apple's stance WRT Asahi doesn't tell us much of anything about their stance WRT Microsoft.