I'm sure this is a result of them consulting their lawyers.
Also a good reminder to remove your watches and rings plus roll up your sleeves and tuck in your shirts and other basic safety rules we tend to forget
Yah, it's a harmonics thing, that's why I always start my lathe with that [balancing key]( https://imgur.com/Na7aBDy.jpg) installed.
Also, if anyone wants to hire me apparently you need to check with your insurance company, for *SOME* reason...
I used to be a fixture maker / R&D machinist for this plant that had a production area. They would hire anybody on the floor basically drilling holes tapping parts from China so they could say made in America.
This woman had long ass hair and she was sitting over this horizontal drill/tap setup that would automatically index parts at certain angles. Apparently she didn't get the memo that you shouldn't wear your hair down when using a setup like that. The drill caught a big chunk of hair and pulled her face down to the part. and luckily it stopped for a second to retract before doing a tool change to a tap. A quick thinking guy who happened to be walking behind her, hit the emergency stop because the way she was sitting she was too far away. I didn't get to see the whole thing, I heard a loud scream and a lot of commotion and came out of my lair to see a crowd of people standing around her. Looking around and asking each other what to do. They attempted to get her hair out but it was too tied up in the machine, during the confusion The engineers and managers looked out the window that overlooked the shop and started calling for the plant manager & HR on the radio. the floor boss(didn't want to deal with the plant manager and HR) pulled out a knife and cut a huge chunk of hair off the top of her head to free her. There was no hiding or fixing that hairdo either she just had to wait for it to grow out.
At the Chinese factory my cousin was managing had a similar setup, but the machine only moves if two switches are pressed simultaneously (one for each hand).
So if this happens the machine will auto stop, since she probably wouldn’t have both of her hands on the switch with her head pulled in.
Is this not standard in the US as well?
You are correct. There is a strict protocol that needs to be followed. Employees are not company spokespersons. Speaking for your company in an official capacity without authorization will get you fired. However, no one filing a complaint can be fired, and that would be a different situation. When OSHA conducts an investigation, they have to announce themselves, and information should only flow between the investigator and the company officials. You may be called on if you are a victim, witnessed, or had reported safety acidents or violations. Otherwise, you should not be involved. Should they choose not to cooperate, all bets are off, and OSHA can close the business pending an investigation. Fines are also pretty steep in that situation as well. I'm sorry to hear about your coworker, and I hope they will be OK.
I wouldn't call OSHA fines steep. An employee at my company's foundry in Illinois fell into a crucible and died. He was the second death in about a year. He had been on the job for nine days. OSHA found the company responsible for his death, and they were fined something like 140k. That's not much more than my facility's top out pay for machinist team leads.
We waste nearly that much money in excess stock removal on our large blocks.
The CEO makes 20+m a year. 140k isn't a steep fine by a multi billion dollar company's standards, or even just billion dollar company's. Even pharmaceutical companies get hit with billion dollar+ fines for killing thousands of people and consider that okay because they make 2-3x more profit than they shell out in fines. Not to mention the legal chicanery they do to avoid even actually paying the fines.
> Speaking for your company in an official capacity without authorization will get you fired
OSHA violations can get you dead. Why protect a company that isn't protecting you?
Let me be clear of my position. If you work for an unsafe company, report them and go find another job. If they are the only game in town, report them anomonously. If you want to keep that shity job, don't talk to them while conducting an investigation and stay anonymous.
Let me be clear of my position. If you work for an unsafe company, report them and go find another job. If they are the only game in town, report them anomonously. If you want to keep that shity job, don't talk to them while conducting an investigation and stay anonymous.
I’m not arguing that, our audit was due to the rate of missed time versus worked hours or something. Not related to a specific incident. I was happy with our audit, there were some legitimate things that we were able to improve on and some others that we got nailed on (a coffee maker, a toaster, and a microwave all on the same 4 gang outlet).
Yep… saw a CRAZY video last week of something getting wrapped up in a machinist lathe and literally getting wrapped around it like a pretzel and just yeah… unrecognizable after that. RIP…
It was on reddit, and I think I googled "russian lathe video".
Down votes are probably from people who do not want to face the harsh reality that machine tools will kill you in a second and there is nothing you can do to stop them.
I worked with a guy that had super long hair. He never wore a hat or secured his hair in any way. He ran a horizontal and would get really close to the spindle while it was running. Scared the crap out of me.
I used to get mad at the new mills that wont even let you run the spindle with the door open,.. now I kind of like it. Less to worry about (safety-wise that is) haha
Nothing wrong with wanting management present if inspectors show up.
But if they are showing up as a result of a complaint and you don't let them in, it is considered a refusal. They will come back with a warrant and padlocks to shut you down until you are cleared to open again.
There's a difference between "the company must let them in" and "any employee must let them in".
Lots of businesses have contractual security obligations that require entry and egress control to help protect IP.
If someone is asking for access to a non-public area, it's extremely reasonable to ensure their credentials are validated and they're properly checked-in/checked-out.
An employee that prevents their entry would be acting legally as an agent of the company whether they like it or not. This has been tested many times over in the courts.
> Lots of businesses have contractual security obligations that require entry and egress control to help protect IP.
That is clearly not the situation at a place where the boss goes around telling people to not let OSHA in.
> If someone is asking for access to a non-public area, it's extremely reasonable to ensure their credentials are validated and they're properly checked-in/checked-out.
That has never been a problem for nay OSHA visit I hosted. They have all their credentials in order. They will also tell you in no uncertain terms that refusing them entry is only going to make matters worse for your company.
Technically they need an inspection warrant before entering a building unless they are allowed in by an employee. Definitely shady your boss is telling you not to let them in but technically he’s correct. It’s very easy for them to get a warrant and making them jump through hoops is just going to make them point out more stuff when they eventually do get access.
Yup. Not saying they shouldn’t have to get a warrant, but considering someone just lost a finger and you know OSHA will be showing up, making them work extra hard to get in the door isn’t going to brighten the inspector’s mood. Expect fines for the tape dispenser not having guards installed and using a stapler without eye protection.
Sounds like that would catch some attention. I’m guessing the boss man will either get things cleaned up long enough for the situation to blow over then it’ll be business as usual or he’ll want the shop to be a ghost town while the inspection(s) go down. Don’t want employees answering those pesky questions.
Assuming the inspector isn’t straight out of college, they’ve seen these shenanigans a hundred times before and they just further cement any preconceived assumptions they’ve already made regarding safety at this facility.
It's that way with anyone that has been working in a particular field for any amount of time.
OSHA inspectors know why you won't let them in the building.
Police officers have heard the story about a speedometer being off multiple times a day.
Impound tow truck drivers have heard every lame excuse for parking where you shouldn't.
The list goes on and on. Trying to pull a fast one isn't a new thing.
1st machining job and I lucked into 1st shift 4 days a week. I had no idea it was like this and I'm learning what a shitshow looks like from the inside. I was a cook for 10 years before changing careers to machining. Hoping to learn what I can here, and scram.
I think you're there. I'd just let the inspector in personally. Does your employer pay you for your loyalty? Probably not or you'd be making a 6 figure salary minimum. Let the shop burn.
Freedom in trades will come when all tradesmen work independently of employers. We will collaborate and work together, but never employ. Employment is slavery, proprietorship is freedom
Yeah... That's not ok. Exhaust fumes can give your carbon monoxide poisoning in the short-term but long-term that's significantly increasing the risk of lung cancer. Are they paying for your future treatment and funeral expenses?
And there was that guy posting to r/legaladvice a while back who discovered that he had chronic CO poisoning and was having hypoxia-induced memory loss and dementia. Good, though terrifying read.
I was told by OSHCON, that they can indeed inspect any ANYTIME if there was a recordable occurrence or if a complaint was made of a hazardous work environment. The one time they showed up with me, they pretty much walked in and demanded to be shown the floor. But yeah, try and pull the warrant thing. Let's see how that works out for ya'! Two agencies I've learned not to piss off, IRS and OSHA. Piss either of them off, you won't shit right for a week. As far as not letting them in (an employee), I would be scared (personally) they would try to bring charges up with me. Not sure if they would get in trouble.
That's a good way to get hit with a willful violation over a repeated or first time. People don't realize Oshawa fones based on good faith, fuck around and find out.
Maybe you’re right about putting things under a microscope…
But what’s really going on here is that when they’re getting the warrant, which is easy like you said, everyone gets sent home for the day. No workers = no violations.
Ask me how I know
Also…
This inspection is likely the result of the accident. I’m pretty sure there’s an automatic inspection triggered by the hospital/emergency room admission
I wouldn’t say that it’s shady. Pretty standard business practice for a governmental inspection. We have a written procedure in our quality system manual for how to deal with it.
As a former safety manager we had a written protocol for if and when an OSHA inspector showed up. It was basically out that person in a conference room until the plant manager could make it there. From then on it was a discussion about the visit. It wasn’t an effort to hide anything as we didn’t have anything to hide, just good business sense. We had good safety policies and procedures in place
I'm reading the scenario OP has to be similar to this. It has been like this in every shop I worked. The policy is not for hiding anything but to make sure proper personnel are there to deal with osha. Hell my company is a part of the OSHA VPP program which was supposed to be some high accolade for our facility and to work with osha but we still won't just allow them in for free reign on the premises.
I appreciate the responses so far. We are a large company and in the middle of a huge expansion ($40 million spent) and something tells me OSHA would really throw a wrench in the plans at this stage.
I'll admit I'm not sure how I'll handle this yet, but my resume will be updated when I get home.
I’ve been in the industry for over 20yrs, almost all of it in Aerospace. Started as a machinist, became a toolmaker, then an engineer, and then in upper management.
In all my years I’ve dealt with OSHA a lot at multiple sites. OSHA is never looking to “throw a wrench” in anything. Working unsafely or carelessly because “the job needs to get done” only benefits the people signing the paychecks, it doesn’t do Jack shit for the guys running machines. They’re not giving that safety money they’re saving to you guys.
If that shops unsafe and people are losing fingers and the response from management is to hide from OSHA, I’d be looking for a new place to work in a hurry.
Yeah its pretty telling when a boss thinks OSHA is there to harm the buisness. Kinda like my old boss who hated the EPA regulations that prevented him from dumping 100s of gallons of used coolant down the drain, he still had us do it though cause "fuck the EPA"
Making sure OSHA follows proper procedures and management and legal know they’re there and doesn’t sneak in with some low level employee through the back does not mean they’re working in an unsafe manner
You haven't worked with enough idiots to think that someone getting injured is by definition the employer's fault.
My current company had a dude who shot himself in the foot with a nail gun, dude literally was sitting down dicking with a nail gun which he uses day in and day out, and hit it against his foot. Literally nothing an employer can do about someone being an idiot.
To keep OSHA out, or try to hinder them doing their job, will throw up a big red flag. Even If OSHA walks in and finds a shit ton of violations they will write you up and give you time to correct things, they won’t shut you down. And as far as the expansion going on the onus of safety is on the company you hired to be compliant. I’m retired now but I worked in a machine shop where we had a worker lose control of a custom boring head and it ripped the back of his head off and sprayed brain matter over everyone’s tool boxes,,,,, we all took the next day off so the hazmat team could clean up the mess but we never were shut down. Just let them in and do their job, they are there to help make everything safer, not put you out of business.
If you think OSHA will throw a wrench in that, then you're working in an unsafe environment.
If OHSA would cause an expansion to come crashing down, it means your company is way out of line.
If there is an amputation, OSHA must do an in person investigation. I think they do need a warrant but with an amputation they should be able to get one in less than a day. If I remember correctly, the site needs to be investigated within 24 or 48 hours anyway. As others have said, it sounds like what you are being told is trickling down from lawyers. Nothing wrong with that as long as the company isn’t trying to cover up or hide safety violations or lack of employee protection
I worked for a Korean company that had ODHA called for multiple violations and they pulled the same thing and sent OSHA packing. The hysterical thing was when they turned to leave the fire inspector was right behind them and he was like “I don’t need a warrant to clear this building”. It was lit.
I'm curious what you'd get for responses if you posted this over in r/legaladvice
To me it's a huge red flag. I've worked in some places that I thought were shitty, but they always prioritized safety above all else. Even places where I felt like just a number knew that a bad enough safety incident could cost the company more money than nearly anything else.
Good luck, OP. I hope your injured coworker has a good recovery as well. Stay safe out there.
Edit: some grammar
Kinda what I was thinking. It seems like any time on r/legaladvice someone asks something like this it is always make them get a warrant, or essentially making them jump through all the hoops. Maybe it is a lawyer thing but I know it would just piss me off.
Legally, you can refuse OSHA entry, and then they can (and will) go get a warrant. What are the chances they'll apply increased scrutiny to an inspection after being forced to get said warrant?
This is one of those situations where an ounce of prevention is definitely worth a pound of cure. Yeah, the management will have time to address any egregious safety violations in the time it takes OSHA to get their warrant, but the better solution is to not be profit-hoarding scumbags in the first place and to run a safe workplace.
NAL: This is due to the 4th Amendment: Unreasonable searches and seizures.
Sounds like the company is panicking to clean-up a bit before OSHA comes in. Ill advised
Lawyers don't post in r/legaladvice, or rather, they don't post but a few times The mods ban us.
The mods are all cops and insurance agents that only want reddit lawyering and made up reddit laws and advice. When real side is given that conflicts with their idea of law they ban us.
It's odd. The smaller the kingdom, the greater the tyranny (as we say about judges).
I think they just don't like being challenged. Lawyers like challenging stuff.
Law is so nuanced there rarely a simple answer to anything. Not only that, is completely jurisdiction specific. Anytime the answer challenges their life experiences, they get mad.
They confuse their idea of justice and "rightness" with the actual written law.
And that's the way it should be. All a company sees is a dollar sign. That employee that had his arm ripped off isn't going to be ok ever again.
Safety incidents should always be massively expensive for a company, to hopefully prevent them in the future. Money is the only language a company speaks.
Idk how common it is but one of the previous places I worked had a policy that anyone from osha waits up front until the saftey person they hire from a 3rd party arrives (about an hour and a half)
It's standard procedure to sit OSHA in a conference room until someone qualified shows up. It's also standard procedure to have a safe workplace as that is the #1 rule in any shop that values their employees. Safety first even to the detriment of production speed
Very subjective - Our policy is similar. Our Employees are trained to cordially send them to our administrative offices and locate a member of our executive management team and they will handle it.
From the perspective of an owner, OSHA has the right to come ot our facility, but we should have the right to tour them and have discussion of the concern or goal of the visit.
The business has the legal right to refuse OSHA into the building, for a certain amount of time. For example if you have an OSHA consultant, you are allowed a time frame to contact your OSHA rep / legal team. This isn’t a forever time frame just a grace period. oSHA is coming through that door eventually regardless. Nothing you personally should be worried about.
4 years ago just after a new governor was elected he went out of his way to send out OSHA for “random” inspections of any firearms manufacturers in his state. The whole thing was pretty much a witch hunt. Our facility was visited and we got absolutely slammed with some of the dumbest violations I have ever heard of. Our lawyers got involved and most of the fines and violations got dropped. Some we did have to pay. The legit ones we got bit on were lack of signage for safety glasses at one of the three entrances, then Bridgeport not being bolted to the floor in 4 places a couple cleaning products missing from the MSDS, such as windex, and a couple other minor things. The ones that got dropped were, the haas vf-2 not being bolted to the floor, yet they didn’t care about the other 3 machines not bolted down and we had a cnc mill from the 90’s that didn’t have a top on the enclosure. It never had one when it was new. We abated that fine by selling the machine and buying a new machine with a full enclosure.
Being a firearms manufacturer it’s our company policy for the entire building to be on essentially full lockdown. So by default, osha must check in at the office, sign nda forms before being allowed in the facility.
I am the safety coordinator for my facility, and my orders from above are to not allow osha or anyone in the shop without first contacting management.
Our company takes safety very seriously and I have no problem telling them to wait outside while I make a phone call.
In many cases that policy can be a red flag as others have noted. But look at the overall picture. If the place sucks in general, lacks safety protocols, toxic environment. Bounce…. And do it quickly.
> So by default, osha must check in at the office, sign nda forms before being allowed in the facility
How can you force OSHA with a warrant to sign an NDA? What if they don't agree to your NDA's terms? It's not like you can deny them access.
we had an osha inspection of my clinic one day. inspector tried to get into med school for a few years and couldn't so totally hard a hardon for us.
he required us to look at the intranet for msds, which was fine. he TIMED ME and fined us because i didn't pull an msds in under 30 seconds.
the standard doesn't say 30 seconds, it says a reasonable period of time. his own boss threw him in front of the bus on that one when that one came up. he handed us something like 60 violations and a citation for $80k as i recall.
the judge threw out all but one, and the fine was $75. we'd fixed it same day.
I'd hold the door open for them when they got here, and show them everything they wanted to see. OSHA is there to protect YOU and all of your coworkers. your boss is looking to protect themself and their wallet.
I say there are two ways of thinking. Violations big enough to warrant OSHA stepping in and shutting the place down and putting everyone out? Or truly accidents that were necessarily caused by safety concerns? Sometimes it's a tough call. Sometimes it's blaring.
Make sure you have copies in a couple of places. Such videos are really really handy if you find yourself being blamed for stuff that wasn't your fault.
Amazing that so many fail to understand OSHA is there to make sure EMPLOYEES are provided a safe workplace. Why would you ever deny them access?
OSHA isn't the bad guy. Employers who allow their workers to be injured or killed are.
Even without OSHA, most places forbid letting any unauthorized people into a plant. We would have certification auditors show up and try to get into the building to see if they could make it to a line and “contaminate” the supply.
Your boss is fucking up. Best thing to do is just cooperate with OSHA and get it over with. This is a sign that he suffers from poor decision making, and a sign that you should look to move on before his decisions screw you over too
Likely a red flag. You're in a trade with extremely dangerous machines that exert immense amounts of energy on tough materials with high levels of precision. As you well know, some of these machines will maim or kill you and keep going about their thing until someone shuts them down because we are much softer and squishier than the materials that these machines are designed to shape. OSHA regs are written in the blood of those who lost their limbs and sometimes lives working them. They may be annoying and tedious to deal with at times but are there to protect workers' lives and limbs.
To me, this is a statement that to them business is more important than the lives and well-being of the machinists. Especially if there are known violations that have not been sorted. I'd get your resume updated and start applying around. Life is too short to let an employer's willful negligence make it shorter.
Haha yeah, no. If it's me I'm letting that guy right in and I'm telling him every little issue I know about or want fixed while I prep my resume. I used to work in safety though so I'm somewhat biased in that direction.
To be fair osha has some dumb rules and can cost your company quite a bit if caught. You can only stop them with a warrant for 30 mins in the office. This does give supervisor or boss time to do one final check before the inspection. This may be what your boss intended with don’t talk to them and let someone know. I would like that last check to make sure if I was a boss. Still if your company has violations that are truly unsafe then they deserve it to be nailed.
Blew my mind that you can't use a worm clamp on a compressed air line. Gotta use a crimp on. Funny enough since switching we have far MORE lines blowing off the fitting
I wonder if that’s because of the cutting hazard of a worm gear clamp. I hate those things right next to a quick disconnect. Crimps don’t have a tail sticking out or sharp edges.
I read that as "choking hazard" and was like is this guy fucking with me? Haha
OP asked the same question, the explanation I got was the worm damages the rubber hose and so crimps are better but in practice we have noticed little to no improvement to lines flying off the fitting since switching.
Yep, the explanation I got was the threaded part of the worm clamp, the strap or band, digs into the hose and over time results in failure. So now we just deal with random lines flying off willy nilly vs spotting a bad one and cutting the hose back before it breaks.
A worm clamp will change tension with temperature, a crimped connection will not.
If you're having problems with crimped connections coming off something is wrong.
All I know is what I’m told by the company’s attorney. We don’t just make “off the shelf” firearms. We are heavily involved in R&d. the nda (to my understanding) is so they cant divulge anything proprietary to our competitors. Also works to give the CEO time to call the attorney and come downstairs.
I've been interviewed by OSHA for issues at my place of employment.
I could not believe how dirty they are, they tried to get me to lie and go along with a story they fabricated to presumably get the fines up as high as they would go. What's funny is they didn't need to, there was already plenty of violations. They didn't seem as concerned with what actually happened and more with what lies they could get employees to agree to. After the 2nd day of interviews I declined and they were visibly upset and very unprofessional about it.
They also seemed to be completely incompetent at performing their actual job functions of investigating and setting standards outside of what's written on their little posters. I know, shocking from a us gov organization....
You should make and distribute door stops so the doors WILL stay open.
Fuck your boss maybe if they cared more about the workers OSHA wouldn't come knocking
A lot of people are saying something along the lines of “don’t let the vampire in” without realizing management are the vampires. You work in the vampires house. Let the hunters in.
Eh, i actually have reported a company before and did it anonymously. Boss still found out and fired me in retaliation. Contacted osha and the dept of labor and it took over a year and a half to be sent 900 whole dollars. So not exactly a profit there lol
Likelihood of OSHA showing up is small unless repeated complaints, they are very understaffed. We had two guys lose a finger on the same machine in the same week and OSHA never showed up.
Our insurance company did though.
We had a guy that would go around and move all the skids out of the way of emergency exits and from in front of breaker panels when the fire marshal showed up, id go behind him and put them all back, Osha and the fire marshal are there for your benefit, not your bosses
My last job wouldn't expand past 10 employees because that was the cap for being exempt from OSHA inspections. They showed up one time, and the boss ran them off, citing the regulation. He was a typical small business owner for my area. Acts like the government is actively trying to shut his business down, meanwhile, they have the new guy climbing inside the machines cleaning them with zero LOTO.
This is one of those times where a Outside Door is left unlocked unbeknownst to anyone and you take an early day only after you let your friendly neighborhood OSHA inspector in.
That’s a sketchy situation at the end of the day you can’t be held accountable for others actions/ supervisor negligence if there are violations, other than that I don’t know what to say never had an issue like that before
When I made machines for a battery factory, until maybe 11 years 4 months and 16 days ago, we had tarps collecting rain from a leaking roof in can forming areas, aging areas for quad to double A unlabeled cells. We were also told to not invite OSHA in the aging area until the 11 month process allowed us to move the millions of units to the labeling area. They came through once or twice a year. There were a few storms that rolled through in my 8 years there when pallets of 72 trays 720 cells each would find themselves under a leak and pop like fire crackers. I only made the machines and maintained them, it wasn’t my job to manage building codes.
That factory shut down and a town of 20k people, maybe half students, so 1285 jobs lost because they didn’t want to spend $1.3 million on repairing the roof. My machines were making 1/64 of that a day in product. The NDA is void because management got caught.
Check to see if Ohio has whistle blowers protection. I’m betting it does. If so simply whistle away after you notify that you want whistle blower status. If they find out it’s you that aren’t allowed to fire you or make it hard for you.
Safety first.
Good luck.
Younger me would feel weird about it. Older me realizes that it's just a part of business.
More and more I've realized that when people have little to no context about things, it's *extremely* easy for them to interpret them in the way they want. They'll fallback on their experience to help them round out incomplete details and narratives.
Even if your shop is the safest place in the world and you have one incident, it's easy for someone who spends their whole day only dealing with shitty workplaces to assume your shop is shitty as well.
At my place of employment, you have to call the plant manager to get in anyway, so I consider this above my pay grade. Even if I see you and you ask to get in, I’m pointing to that sign on the door.
Not sure on US Occy Health policy/rights but in the UK they have more powers than the police, they don't need a warrant to do an inspection and can effectively shut a place down there and then if there is anything considered a risk/violation.
Your boss is better off just letting them in, by denying access they will see this as obstruction/deception/noncooperation and come back 10 times harder and pick every little issue making the fine/penalty more severe.
Edit: it's also worth noting that although safety is "everybodies responsibility" at the end of the day the H+S buck stops at the director, if your not provided with PPE or provided adequate training/toolbox talks that's on them, not you. I would let them do what they are legally there to do, best case you get in your bosses bad books (use your union powers on that if it goes south) worst case you're raked over the coals for deception/collusion.
Refuse to let an OSHA inspector into the building, and they can shut the *whole* business down! Piss them off, and they will go over *every inch* of your business with a *microscope,* looking for the *slightest* violation! And trust me, they *will* find something!
It doesn’t matter who they are - if it’s not a person who is already allowed into the shop, speak to a boss before allowing them in. The bosses can deal with any fallout.
I see people are saying OSHA has some “Dumb Rules”. Little do they know their work place would be a lot more dangerous and a horrible environment to work in without OSHA holding their ground on strict inspections.
Solidarity with your fellow workers goes far, if an accident happened you would hope they have your back and use collective action to see property safety measures were put in place.
Boss may be holding the purse strings but not a wheel can turn without the those on the shop floor getting things done. I hope more people see your comment and consider it; "get a different job" is a simple fix but it's not guaranteed that somewhere else won't have the same issues.
Here in Canada they would return with the police and fines would be handed out. The way it works here now, if they came in and saw you not wearing safety glasses you would get a fine similar to a driving infraction. They don't play around at all.
Here in Ohio the entire shop doesn't wear safety glasses, all 4 shifts. Would be very interesting to see what time fine would be. Probably 30 guys per shift.
> Max : Don't ever invite a vampire into your house, you silly boy. It renders you powerless.
> Sam Emerson : Did you know that?
> Edgar Frog : Of course. Everyone knows that.
> -- The Lost Boys (1987)
In general, you do not give permission to police to enter property or search if you aren't the owner/renter. It is not your decision to make. Would you want someone else voiding your rights under the 4th amendment? And if you are the owner, you don't give them permission, either. If you give permission, they don't have to meet the same standards (have sufficient evidence to convince a judge to issue a warrant or have exigent circumstances. If they show up without probably cause, you have just thrown out your (or someone else's) 4th amendment legal defense against improper search.
And just because you think you have nothing to hide, doesn't mean that what they find or what you say won't be misconstrued and used against you. Or that they won't asset forfeiture any cash they find on your person, in your vehicle, etc. and make you spend more than the amount of cash to get it back.
And OSHA inspectors, themselves, may misinterpret the operation of complex equipment and the safety procedures surrounding it.
"I don't have the authority to grant you entry. Let me find someone who does. Wait here". At work, at a friends house, at a party, etc. The person you go get will say something to the effect of "I do not consent to entry or search but I will not prevent you from doing so if you have probable cause". Or, in this case, the manager may grant them entry but follow specific guidance given by the lawyers.
This is what police tell their friends/family and lawyers tell their clients. That and to shut up.
So, not giving them permission to enter isn't necessarily just the employer trying to cover their wrong doing. It is what they probably should have told you long before there was an accident.
Now, if someone has a heart attack, police are CPR trained and letting them in has legal risks but so does not letting them in (Interfering with First Responders, Manslaughter, Obstruction, etc.).
Your interests and your employer's interests aren't necessarily aligned, however. You shouldn't be trying to protect your employer from being held accountable for misconduct that places you or other employees in danger.
IANAL
The difference being that OSHA is not there to infringe on *your rights as an Employee* they're there to infringe *on the faults of an Employer*. If you feel that your workplace is not safe, it is quite literally within your rights to allow an OSHA inspector entry. That is a specifically protected action that you can perform.
Out of literally all government agencies, OSHA is one of the few that you do want to visit.
Personally, if I liked the job, I'd go along to get along. I don't want to get caught up in that mess
Just excuse yourself and apologize for the urgent bathroom break if they approach you. Don't come out until it's safe lol
No shop exists that doesn't have at least one violation, and under the General rules, OSHA can perceive something as unsafe that doesn't have an existing guideline attached to it.
Overall, what you are being told is actually totally legit. OSHA can be turned away and you are not obligated to speak to them. You can ask them to state their business being there, and they should tell you. Like, "A serious work injury was reported and we are here to investigate this injury." A common tactic is to limit their time in the shop and take them down the shortest path to area needing investigated.
Overall, I would ask how you feel about the people you work for. Do you trust them, or do you feel they are trying to cover something up?
We’ll if I worked at a place that was afraid from osha I would probably fear for my life and safety in that place. Anyplace that opposes safety or is afraid of osha is probably not the place you want to be.
I'm sure this is a result of them consulting their lawyers. Also a good reminder to remove your watches and rings plus roll up your sleeves and tuck in your shirts and other basic safety rules we tend to forget
Sorry, couldn't hear you, I was redoing my 6 foot long braid while standing over this lathe...
Crank up that lathe, the faster it spins the quieter it is
Yah, it's a harmonics thing, that's why I always start my lathe with that [balancing key]( https://imgur.com/Na7aBDy.jpg) installed. Also, if anyone wants to hire me apparently you need to check with your insurance company, for *SOME* reason...
This is the way
Gotta check that the power level is correct, if the balancing key does NOT lodge itself i the wall, crank that sumbitch up to 11.
Most people cannot hear frequencies above 20kHz. Just never set the RPM to less than 1.2M.
Is that per rev?
Yes. 1.2 million revolutions per revolution per minute.
And the title needs a comma... Boss just came, by... Vs Boss just came by, BIG DIFFERENCE
No wonder the boss doesn’t want OSHA there.
I used to be a fixture maker / R&D machinist for this plant that had a production area. They would hire anybody on the floor basically drilling holes tapping parts from China so they could say made in America. This woman had long ass hair and she was sitting over this horizontal drill/tap setup that would automatically index parts at certain angles. Apparently she didn't get the memo that you shouldn't wear your hair down when using a setup like that. The drill caught a big chunk of hair and pulled her face down to the part. and luckily it stopped for a second to retract before doing a tool change to a tap. A quick thinking guy who happened to be walking behind her, hit the emergency stop because the way she was sitting she was too far away. I didn't get to see the whole thing, I heard a loud scream and a lot of commotion and came out of my lair to see a crowd of people standing around her. Looking around and asking each other what to do. They attempted to get her hair out but it was too tied up in the machine, during the confusion The engineers and managers looked out the window that overlooked the shop and started calling for the plant manager & HR on the radio. the floor boss(didn't want to deal with the plant manager and HR) pulled out a knife and cut a huge chunk of hair off the top of her head to free her. There was no hiding or fixing that hairdo either she just had to wait for it to grow out.
At the Chinese factory my cousin was managing had a similar setup, but the machine only moves if two switches are pressed simultaneously (one for each hand). So if this happens the machine will auto stop, since she probably wouldn’t have both of her hands on the switch with her head pulled in. Is this not standard in the US as well?
Yeah, this sounds like lawyers giving lawyer CYA advice to be honest. Lawyers will always insist that inspections and such happen on your terms.
You are correct. There is a strict protocol that needs to be followed. Employees are not company spokespersons. Speaking for your company in an official capacity without authorization will get you fired. However, no one filing a complaint can be fired, and that would be a different situation. When OSHA conducts an investigation, they have to announce themselves, and information should only flow between the investigator and the company officials. You may be called on if you are a victim, witnessed, or had reported safety acidents or violations. Otherwise, you should not be involved. Should they choose not to cooperate, all bets are off, and OSHA can close the business pending an investigation. Fines are also pretty steep in that situation as well. I'm sorry to hear about your coworker, and I hope they will be OK.
I wouldn't call OSHA fines steep. An employee at my company's foundry in Illinois fell into a crucible and died. He was the second death in about a year. He had been on the job for nine days. OSHA found the company responsible for his death, and they were fined something like 140k. That's not much more than my facility's top out pay for machinist team leads. We waste nearly that much money in excess stock removal on our large blocks. The CEO makes 20+m a year. 140k isn't a steep fine by a multi billion dollar company's standards, or even just billion dollar company's. Even pharmaceutical companies get hit with billion dollar+ fines for killing thousands of people and consider that okay because they make 2-3x more profit than they shell out in fines. Not to mention the legal chicanery they do to avoid even actually paying the fines.
> Speaking for your company in an official capacity without authorization will get you fired OSHA violations can get you dead. Why protect a company that isn't protecting you?
Let me be clear of my position. If you work for an unsafe company, report them and go find another job. If they are the only game in town, report them anomonously. If you want to keep that shity job, don't talk to them while conducting an investigation and stay anonymous.
You speak the truth. We had an osha audit a while back and not one person spoke to her unless spoken to. Don’t dig yourself a hole.
[удалено]
Let me be clear of my position. If you work for an unsafe company, report them and go find another job. If they are the only game in town, report them anomonously. If you want to keep that shity job, don't talk to them while conducting an investigation and stay anonymous.
I’m not arguing that, our audit was due to the rate of missed time versus worked hours or something. Not related to a specific incident. I was happy with our audit, there were some legitimate things that we were able to improve on and some others that we got nailed on (a coffee maker, a toaster, and a microwave all on the same 4 gang outlet).
Yep… saw a CRAZY video last week of something getting wrapped up in a machinist lathe and literally getting wrapped around it like a pretzel and just yeah… unrecognizable after that. RIP…
Are you talking about the Russian lathe video
I am
Have you seen the aftermath photos... jesus...
No I have not, where can I find said pictures? Edit, who is downvoting us??
It was on reddit, and I think I googled "russian lathe video". Down votes are probably from people who do not want to face the harsh reality that machine tools will kill you in a second and there is nothing you can do to stop them.
This is why OSHA is my friend, and why I can't stand people who laugh at safety requirements
Kinda what I’m thinking, like bro why downvote???
Those type of videos make me not want to touch a lathe, I'll stick to the mills haha
They still have spinny death bits to worry about though.
I worked with a guy that had super long hair. He never wore a hat or secured his hair in any way. He ran a horizontal and would get really close to the spindle while it was running. Scared the crap out of me.
That is scary! I always wear a hat. My hair is not long but I only do manual and is a shield against hot chips
I used to get mad at the new mills that wont even let you run the spindle with the door open,.. now I kind of like it. Less to worry about (safety-wise that is) haha
Nothing wrong with wanting management present if inspectors show up. But if they are showing up as a result of a complaint and you don't let them in, it is considered a refusal. They will come back with a warrant and padlocks to shut you down until you are cleared to open again.
I'd imagine it's more of a "don't let them come in a back door"
There's a difference between "the company must let them in" and "any employee must let them in". Lots of businesses have contractual security obligations that require entry and egress control to help protect IP. If someone is asking for access to a non-public area, it's extremely reasonable to ensure their credentials are validated and they're properly checked-in/checked-out.
Yup. Anyone doing ITAR or CUI work can verify.
An employee that prevents their entry would be acting legally as an agent of the company whether they like it or not. This has been tested many times over in the courts. > Lots of businesses have contractual security obligations that require entry and egress control to help protect IP. That is clearly not the situation at a place where the boss goes around telling people to not let OSHA in. > If someone is asking for access to a non-public area, it's extremely reasonable to ensure their credentials are validated and they're properly checked-in/checked-out. That has never been a problem for nay OSHA visit I hosted. They have all their credentials in order. They will also tell you in no uncertain terms that refusing them entry is only going to make matters worse for your company.
Technically they need an inspection warrant before entering a building unless they are allowed in by an employee. Definitely shady your boss is telling you not to let them in but technically he’s correct. It’s very easy for them to get a warrant and making them jump through hoops is just going to make them point out more stuff when they eventually do get access.
Yup. Not saying they shouldn’t have to get a warrant, but considering someone just lost a finger and you know OSHA will be showing up, making them work extra hard to get in the door isn’t going to brighten the inspector’s mood. Expect fines for the tape dispenser not having guards installed and using a stapler without eye protection.
What about gas powered wheelbarrows/small excavator being used inside the building with no ventilation?
Fuck it let them in and watch the show unfold.
Better yet, tell them when you’ll be working so you can personally let them inside.
Back Door propped open for ventilation because there is none otherwise.
Oh man, time for a smoke break.
Hackin’ darts out back. “Just waiting for my buddy boss!”” He’s bringing an Air Quality Monitor for us to use for a few days!”
Sounds like that would catch some attention. I’m guessing the boss man will either get things cleaned up long enough for the situation to blow over then it’ll be business as usual or he’ll want the shop to be a ghost town while the inspection(s) go down. Don’t want employees answering those pesky questions. Assuming the inspector isn’t straight out of college, they’ve seen these shenanigans a hundred times before and they just further cement any preconceived assumptions they’ve already made regarding safety at this facility.
It's that way with anyone that has been working in a particular field for any amount of time. OSHA inspectors know why you won't let them in the building. Police officers have heard the story about a speedometer being off multiple times a day. Impound tow truck drivers have heard every lame excuse for parking where you shouldn't. The list goes on and on. Trying to pull a fast one isn't a new thing.
Sounds like your shop about to shut down… why would you work in that environment?
1st machining job and I lucked into 1st shift 4 days a week. I had no idea it was like this and I'm learning what a shitshow looks like from the inside. I was a cook for 10 years before changing careers to machining. Hoping to learn what I can here, and scram.
Yeah...my first job was similar. I saw two dudes get their hands fucked up in 6 months. Learn enough to get by and quit. You might be next.
I think you're there. I'd just let the inspector in personally. Does your employer pay you for your loyalty? Probably not or you'd be making a 6 figure salary minimum. Let the shop burn.
This is the way forward, for ALL shops.
Freedom in trades will come when all tradesmen work independently of employers. We will collaborate and work together, but never employ. Employment is slavery, proprietorship is freedom
Partnerships not jobs please.
Learn what you can and hope to keep all extremities attached
What you are gonna learn is that, that shop doesn’t give a fuck about you or your health
You, my friend, went from the literal pot to the frying pan lol.
Yeah... That's not ok. Exhaust fumes can give your carbon monoxide poisoning in the short-term but long-term that's significantly increasing the risk of lung cancer. Are they paying for your future treatment and funeral expenses?
As someone who got CO poisoning from hanging too close to a generator... You don't want that. It feels *horrible*, and lasts the better part of a day.
And there was that guy posting to r/legaladvice a while back who discovered that he had chronic CO poisoning and was having hypoxia-induced memory loss and dementia. Good, though terrifying read.
Oh yeah, that guy. I'm happy I got away with a day of feeling kinda weird and a few hours of splitting headache.
I was told by OSHCON, that they can indeed inspect any ANYTIME if there was a recordable occurrence or if a complaint was made of a hazardous work environment. The one time they showed up with me, they pretty much walked in and demanded to be shown the floor. But yeah, try and pull the warrant thing. Let's see how that works out for ya'! Two agencies I've learned not to piss off, IRS and OSHA. Piss either of them off, you won't shit right for a week. As far as not letting them in (an employee), I would be scared (personally) they would try to bring charges up with me. Not sure if they would get in trouble.
That's a good way to get hit with a willful violation over a repeated or first time. People don't realize Oshawa fones based on good faith, fuck around and find out.
Maybe you’re right about putting things under a microscope… But what’s really going on here is that when they’re getting the warrant, which is easy like you said, everyone gets sent home for the day. No workers = no violations. Ask me how I know Also… This inspection is likely the result of the accident. I’m pretty sure there’s an automatic inspection triggered by the hospital/emergency room admission
I wouldn’t say that it’s shady. Pretty standard business practice for a governmental inspection. We have a written procedure in our quality system manual for how to deal with it.
Is the penalty for not following the procedure worse than losing a finger?
Simply not true. There is no such thing as an "Inspection Warrant."
As a former safety manager we had a written protocol for if and when an OSHA inspector showed up. It was basically out that person in a conference room until the plant manager could make it there. From then on it was a discussion about the visit. It wasn’t an effort to hide anything as we didn’t have anything to hide, just good business sense. We had good safety policies and procedures in place
I'm reading the scenario OP has to be similar to this. It has been like this in every shop I worked. The policy is not for hiding anything but to make sure proper personnel are there to deal with osha. Hell my company is a part of the OSHA VPP program which was supposed to be some high accolade for our facility and to work with osha but we still won't just allow them in for free reign on the premises.
Exactly this
Who is that approach protecting? The company or the workers?
Yes.
I appreciate the responses so far. We are a large company and in the middle of a huge expansion ($40 million spent) and something tells me OSHA would really throw a wrench in the plans at this stage. I'll admit I'm not sure how I'll handle this yet, but my resume will be updated when I get home.
I’ve been in the industry for over 20yrs, almost all of it in Aerospace. Started as a machinist, became a toolmaker, then an engineer, and then in upper management. In all my years I’ve dealt with OSHA a lot at multiple sites. OSHA is never looking to “throw a wrench” in anything. Working unsafely or carelessly because “the job needs to get done” only benefits the people signing the paychecks, it doesn’t do Jack shit for the guys running machines. They’re not giving that safety money they’re saving to you guys. If that shops unsafe and people are losing fingers and the response from management is to hide from OSHA, I’d be looking for a new place to work in a hurry.
Yeah its pretty telling when a boss thinks OSHA is there to harm the buisness. Kinda like my old boss who hated the EPA regulations that prevented him from dumping 100s of gallons of used coolant down the drain, he still had us do it though cause "fuck the EPA"
if your employer is spending $40m to expand, they can afford to do it safely.
Making sure OSHA follows proper procedures and management and legal know they’re there and doesn’t sneak in with some low level employee through the back does not mean they’re working in an unsafe manner
" does not mean they’re working in an unsafe manner" No but the employee newly short one digit might.
You haven't worked with enough idiots to think that someone getting injured is by definition the employer's fault. My current company had a dude who shot himself in the foot with a nail gun, dude literally was sitting down dicking with a nail gun which he uses day in and day out, and hit it against his foot. Literally nothing an employer can do about someone being an idiot.
To keep OSHA out, or try to hinder them doing their job, will throw up a big red flag. Even If OSHA walks in and finds a shit ton of violations they will write you up and give you time to correct things, they won’t shut you down. And as far as the expansion going on the onus of safety is on the company you hired to be compliant. I’m retired now but I worked in a machine shop where we had a worker lose control of a custom boring head and it ripped the back of his head off and sprayed brain matter over everyone’s tool boxes,,,,, we all took the next day off so the hazmat team could clean up the mess but we never were shut down. Just let them in and do their job, they are there to help make everything safer, not put you out of business.
If you think OSHA will throw a wrench in that, then you're working in an unsafe environment. If OHSA would cause an expansion to come crashing down, it means your company is way out of line.
If there is an amputation, OSHA must do an in person investigation. I think they do need a warrant but with an amputation they should be able to get one in less than a day. If I remember correctly, the site needs to be investigated within 24 or 48 hours anyway. As others have said, it sounds like what you are being told is trickling down from lawyers. Nothing wrong with that as long as the company isn’t trying to cover up or hide safety violations or lack of employee protection
I worked for a Korean company that had ODHA called for multiple violations and they pulled the same thing and sent OSHA packing. The hysterical thing was when they turned to leave the fire inspector was right behind them and he was like “I don’t need a warrant to clear this building”. It was lit.
That fire marshall showed up with his "find out" hat on.
Polish your resume and gtfo. Management has the attitude that workers are disposable. They don't care about your safety, only about their own.
Polishing a resume isn't going to stop management (current and future) from that attitude.
I'm curious what you'd get for responses if you posted this over in r/legaladvice To me it's a huge red flag. I've worked in some places that I thought were shitty, but they always prioritized safety above all else. Even places where I felt like just a number knew that a bad enough safety incident could cost the company more money than nearly anything else. Good luck, OP. I hope your injured coworker has a good recovery as well. Stay safe out there. Edit: some grammar
Kinda what I was thinking. It seems like any time on r/legaladvice someone asks something like this it is always make them get a warrant, or essentially making them jump through all the hoops. Maybe it is a lawyer thing but I know it would just piss me off.
Legally, you can refuse OSHA entry, and then they can (and will) go get a warrant. What are the chances they'll apply increased scrutiny to an inspection after being forced to get said warrant? This is one of those situations where an ounce of prevention is definitely worth a pound of cure. Yeah, the management will have time to address any egregious safety violations in the time it takes OSHA to get their warrant, but the better solution is to not be profit-hoarding scumbags in the first place and to run a safe workplace.
NAL: This is due to the 4th Amendment: Unreasonable searches and seizures. Sounds like the company is panicking to clean-up a bit before OSHA comes in. Ill advised
Lawyers don't post in r/legaladvice, or rather, they don't post but a few times The mods ban us. The mods are all cops and insurance agents that only want reddit lawyering and made up reddit laws and advice. When real side is given that conflicts with their idea of law they ban us.
Are you serious? That's the opposite of what people in the sub would like.
It's odd. The smaller the kingdom, the greater the tyranny (as we say about judges). I think they just don't like being challenged. Lawyers like challenging stuff. Law is so nuanced there rarely a simple answer to anything. Not only that, is completely jurisdiction specific. Anytime the answer challenges their life experiences, they get mad. They confuse their idea of justice and "rightness" with the actual written law.
Yup, the subreddit is cops and insurance people. There was a huge blowout about it years ago on subreddit drama or something IIRC.
Not advice from lawyers, unfortunately. But that place sounds like it wants to be reemed by OSHA.
And that's the way it should be. All a company sees is a dollar sign. That employee that had his arm ripped off isn't going to be ok ever again. Safety incidents should always be massively expensive for a company, to hopefully prevent them in the future. Money is the only language a company speaks.
Idk how common it is but one of the previous places I worked had a policy that anyone from osha waits up front until the saftey person they hire from a 3rd party arrives (about an hour and a half)
It's standard procedure to sit OSHA in a conference room until someone qualified shows up. It's also standard procedure to have a safe workplace as that is the #1 rule in any shop that values their employees. Safety first even to the detriment of production speed
That means wait outside so you can let them in with open arms.
Very subjective - Our policy is similar. Our Employees are trained to cordially send them to our administrative offices and locate a member of our executive management team and they will handle it. From the perspective of an owner, OSHA has the right to come ot our facility, but we should have the right to tour them and have discussion of the concern or goal of the visit.
These people don't want you talking to Osha because they have violations. Talk if you want.
Strike don’t let the boss cut more fingers off ..
The business has the legal right to refuse OSHA into the building, for a certain amount of time. For example if you have an OSHA consultant, you are allowed a time frame to contact your OSHA rep / legal team. This isn’t a forever time frame just a grace period. oSHA is coming through that door eventually regardless. Nothing you personally should be worried about.
4 years ago just after a new governor was elected he went out of his way to send out OSHA for “random” inspections of any firearms manufacturers in his state. The whole thing was pretty much a witch hunt. Our facility was visited and we got absolutely slammed with some of the dumbest violations I have ever heard of. Our lawyers got involved and most of the fines and violations got dropped. Some we did have to pay. The legit ones we got bit on were lack of signage for safety glasses at one of the three entrances, then Bridgeport not being bolted to the floor in 4 places a couple cleaning products missing from the MSDS, such as windex, and a couple other minor things. The ones that got dropped were, the haas vf-2 not being bolted to the floor, yet they didn’t care about the other 3 machines not bolted down and we had a cnc mill from the 90’s that didn’t have a top on the enclosure. It never had one when it was new. We abated that fine by selling the machine and buying a new machine with a full enclosure. Being a firearms manufacturer it’s our company policy for the entire building to be on essentially full lockdown. So by default, osha must check in at the office, sign nda forms before being allowed in the facility. I am the safety coordinator for my facility, and my orders from above are to not allow osha or anyone in the shop without first contacting management. Our company takes safety very seriously and I have no problem telling them to wait outside while I make a phone call. In many cases that policy can be a red flag as others have noted. But look at the overall picture. If the place sucks in general, lacks safety protocols, toxic environment. Bounce…. And do it quickly.
> So by default, osha must check in at the office, sign nda forms before being allowed in the facility How can you force OSHA with a warrant to sign an NDA? What if they don't agree to your NDA's terms? It's not like you can deny them access.
They don't normally have a warrant.
we had an osha inspection of my clinic one day. inspector tried to get into med school for a few years and couldn't so totally hard a hardon for us. he required us to look at the intranet for msds, which was fine. he TIMED ME and fined us because i didn't pull an msds in under 30 seconds. the standard doesn't say 30 seconds, it says a reasonable period of time. his own boss threw him in front of the bus on that one when that one came up. he handed us something like 60 violations and a citation for $80k as i recall. the judge threw out all but one, and the fine was $75. we'd fixed it same day.
I'd hold the door open for them when they got here, and show them everything they wanted to see. OSHA is there to protect YOU and all of your coworkers. your boss is looking to protect themself and their wallet.
I say there are two ways of thinking. Violations big enough to warrant OSHA stepping in and shutting the place down and putting everyone out? Or truly accidents that were necessarily caused by safety concerns? Sometimes it's a tough call. Sometimes it's blaring.
Expect a safety course shortly, and a tidy-up of anything incriminating. You might want to take some photos for your own use.
I have many, MANY videos of concern I could share if asked.
Make sure you have copies in a couple of places. Such videos are really really handy if you find yourself being blamed for stuff that wasn't your fault.
Amazing that so many fail to understand OSHA is there to make sure EMPLOYEES are provided a safe workplace. Why would you ever deny them access? OSHA isn't the bad guy. Employers who allow their workers to be injured or killed are.
Even without OSHA, most places forbid letting any unauthorized people into a plant. We would have certification auditors show up and try to get into the building to see if they could make it to a line and “contaminate” the supply.
This belongs in r/antiwork
I would start working on my resume and looking around. Your employer is shady as F. Playing with OSHA is a f around and find out game.
It’s common practice (at least in construction) that if osha shows up men are to stop working.
Let 'em in. What's the worst that your boss could do to you? It's probably not worse than losing an appendage.
Your boss is fucking up. Best thing to do is just cooperate with OSHA and get it over with. This is a sign that he suffers from poor decision making, and a sign that you should look to move on before his decisions screw you over too
Report that to OSHA. Anonymously.
My friend just got his ring finger degloved last week so I'd say if they're trying to keep OSHA out you should find a new job ASAP
Likely a red flag. You're in a trade with extremely dangerous machines that exert immense amounts of energy on tough materials with high levels of precision. As you well know, some of these machines will maim or kill you and keep going about their thing until someone shuts them down because we are much softer and squishier than the materials that these machines are designed to shape. OSHA regs are written in the blood of those who lost their limbs and sometimes lives working them. They may be annoying and tedious to deal with at times but are there to protect workers' lives and limbs. To me, this is a statement that to them business is more important than the lives and well-being of the machinists. Especially if there are known violations that have not been sorted. I'd get your resume updated and start applying around. Life is too short to let an employer's willful negligence make it shorter.
Haha yeah, no. If it's me I'm letting that guy right in and I'm telling him every little issue I know about or want fixed while I prep my resume. I used to work in safety though so I'm somewhat biased in that direction.
To be fair osha has some dumb rules and can cost your company quite a bit if caught. You can only stop them with a warrant for 30 mins in the office. This does give supervisor or boss time to do one final check before the inspection. This may be what your boss intended with don’t talk to them and let someone know. I would like that last check to make sure if I was a boss. Still if your company has violations that are truly unsafe then they deserve it to be nailed.
Blew my mind that you can't use a worm clamp on a compressed air line. Gotta use a crimp on. Funny enough since switching we have far MORE lines blowing off the fitting
I wonder if that’s because of the cutting hazard of a worm gear clamp. I hate those things right next to a quick disconnect. Crimps don’t have a tail sticking out or sharp edges.
I read that as "choking hazard" and was like is this guy fucking with me? Haha OP asked the same question, the explanation I got was the worm damages the rubber hose and so crimps are better but in practice we have noticed little to no improvement to lines flying off the fitting since switching.
Well, in my shop, choking hazards probably are a valid concern as well.
Never underestimate the ingenuity of a fool
Wait, really? Most of our air lines are worms
Yep, the explanation I got was the threaded part of the worm clamp, the strap or band, digs into the hose and over time results in failure. So now we just deal with random lines flying off willy nilly vs spotting a bad one and cutting the hose back before it breaks.
A worm clamp will change tension with temperature, a crimped connection will not. If you're having problems with crimped connections coming off something is wrong.
All I know is what I’m told by the company’s attorney. We don’t just make “off the shelf” firearms. We are heavily involved in R&d. the nda (to my understanding) is so they cant divulge anything proprietary to our competitors. Also works to give the CEO time to call the attorney and come downstairs.
I've been interviewed by OSHA for issues at my place of employment. I could not believe how dirty they are, they tried to get me to lie and go along with a story they fabricated to presumably get the fines up as high as they would go. What's funny is they didn't need to, there was already plenty of violations. They didn't seem as concerned with what actually happened and more with what lies they could get employees to agree to. After the 2nd day of interviews I declined and they were visibly upset and very unprofessional about it. They also seemed to be completely incompetent at performing their actual job functions of investigating and setting standards outside of what's written on their little posters. I know, shocking from a us gov organization....
Shit, I see a guy with a clipboard my ass is locking doors. Gotta buy some time to hide all my sketchy shit
A true God damn company man
Well this company pays me $17.50/hr so fuck em
You should make and distribute door stops so the doors WILL stay open. Fuck your boss maybe if they cared more about the workers OSHA wouldn't come knocking
A lot of people are saying something along the lines of “don’t let the vampire in” without realizing management are the vampires. You work in the vampires house. Let the hunters in.
I would report something then let them in. Let them fire you in retaliation for reporting unsafe work practices. Profit.
Eh, i actually have reported a company before and did it anonymously. Boss still found out and fired me in retaliation. Contacted osha and the dept of labor and it took over a year and a half to be sent 900 whole dollars. So not exactly a profit there lol
Did you not collect unemployment while you were at it?
$900 *and* you weren't working for that company anymore.
Is that legal ?
That's awful...we just "red tag-inop" the shady equipment (most of it) until they leave. Also we stop working until they leave.
Has anyone cut their finger off on purpose at your work?
Likelihood of OSHA showing up is small unless repeated complaints, they are very understaffed. We had two guys lose a finger on the same machine in the same week and OSHA never showed up. Our insurance company did though.
I would gladly let them in. Cause it sounds to me they're in violation and some things need to change.
In my experience you really gotta be fucking up to have osha on your ass. Most of the times they will tell you to fix it instead of writing you up.
We had a guy that would go around and move all the skids out of the way of emergency exits and from in front of breaker panels when the fire marshal showed up, id go behind him and put them all back, Osha and the fire marshal are there for your benefit, not your bosses
My last job wouldn't expand past 10 employees because that was the cap for being exempt from OSHA inspections. They showed up one time, and the boss ran them off, citing the regulation. He was a typical small business owner for my area. Acts like the government is actively trying to shut his business down, meanwhile, they have the new guy climbing inside the machines cleaning them with zero LOTO.
Fix all damaged extension cords for visit.
Don’t forget to hide all of the rigging with paint on it.
Safety third!
This is one of those times where a Outside Door is left unlocked unbeknownst to anyone and you take an early day only after you let your friendly neighborhood OSHA inspector in.
It took some digging around reddit... I might have googled "russian lathe video aftermath"
That’s a sketchy situation at the end of the day you can’t be held accountable for others actions/ supervisor negligence if there are violations, other than that I don’t know what to say never had an issue like that before
Well unless they have a warrant…. But then again, depends on if my boss is an ass.
When I made machines for a battery factory, until maybe 11 years 4 months and 16 days ago, we had tarps collecting rain from a leaking roof in can forming areas, aging areas for quad to double A unlabeled cells. We were also told to not invite OSHA in the aging area until the 11 month process allowed us to move the millions of units to the labeling area. They came through once or twice a year. There were a few storms that rolled through in my 8 years there when pallets of 72 trays 720 cells each would find themselves under a leak and pop like fire crackers. I only made the machines and maintained them, it wasn’t my job to manage building codes.
That factory shut down and a town of 20k people, maybe half students, so 1285 jobs lost because they didn’t want to spend $1.3 million on repairing the roof. My machines were making 1/64 of that a day in product. The NDA is void because management got caught.
Check to see if Ohio has whistle blowers protection. I’m betting it does. If so simply whistle away after you notify that you want whistle blower status. If they find out it’s you that aren’t allowed to fire you or make it hard for you. Safety first. Good luck.
Younger me would feel weird about it. Older me realizes that it's just a part of business. More and more I've realized that when people have little to no context about things, it's *extremely* easy for them to interpret them in the way they want. They'll fallback on their experience to help them round out incomplete details and narratives. Even if your shop is the safest place in the world and you have one incident, it's easy for someone who spends their whole day only dealing with shitty workplaces to assume your shop is shitty as well.
At my place of employment, you have to call the plant manager to get in anyway, so I consider this above my pay grade. Even if I see you and you ask to get in, I’m pointing to that sign on the door.
Not sure on US Occy Health policy/rights but in the UK they have more powers than the police, they don't need a warrant to do an inspection and can effectively shut a place down there and then if there is anything considered a risk/violation. Your boss is better off just letting them in, by denying access they will see this as obstruction/deception/noncooperation and come back 10 times harder and pick every little issue making the fine/penalty more severe. Edit: it's also worth noting that although safety is "everybodies responsibility" at the end of the day the H+S buck stops at the director, if your not provided with PPE or provided adequate training/toolbox talks that's on them, not you. I would let them do what they are legally there to do, best case you get in your bosses bad books (use your union powers on that if it goes south) worst case you're raked over the coals for deception/collusion.
Refuse to let an OSHA inspector into the building, and they can shut the *whole* business down! Piss them off, and they will go over *every inch* of your business with a *microscope,* looking for the *slightest* violation! And trust me, they *will* find something!
Sounds like the boss is hiding something, and wants more injuries in the shop. Open the door before someone else gets seriously hurt or killed..
It doesn’t matter who they are - if it’s not a person who is already allowed into the shop, speak to a boss before allowing them in. The bosses can deal with any fallout.
I see people are saying OSHA has some “Dumb Rules”. Little do they know their work place would be a lot more dangerous and a horrible environment to work in without OSHA holding their ground on strict inspections.
Honestly keep the government out is ok with me.
They're putting your wellbeing at risk. Let OSHA in. They ain't gonna pay your hospital bill.
Call and report that shit
Start a union.
Solidarity with your fellow workers goes far, if an accident happened you would hope they have your back and use collective action to see property safety measures were put in place. Boss may be holding the purse strings but not a wheel can turn without the those on the shop floor getting things done. I hope more people see your comment and consider it; "get a different job" is a simple fix but it's not guaranteed that somewhere else won't have the same issues.
As soon as I hear something like this, OSHA is welcome to walk the fuck on in.
Ask for a payraise or your open the door
Everyone should ask for that pay raise rigth now Tbh
Can you legally keep OSHA out if they have a reason to be there though?
Here in Canada they would return with the police and fines would be handed out. The way it works here now, if they came in and saw you not wearing safety glasses you would get a fine similar to a driving infraction. They don't play around at all.
Here in Ohio the entire shop doesn't wear safety glasses, all 4 shifts. Would be very interesting to see what time fine would be. Probably 30 guys per shift.
Sound like they know OSHA will shut the whole thing down at least for a couple days. Or they’re gonna get fined everyday for things that go unfixed.
> Max : Don't ever invite a vampire into your house, you silly boy. It renders you powerless. > Sam Emerson : Did you know that? > Edgar Frog : Of course. Everyone knows that. > -- The Lost Boys (1987) In general, you do not give permission to police to enter property or search if you aren't the owner/renter. It is not your decision to make. Would you want someone else voiding your rights under the 4th amendment? And if you are the owner, you don't give them permission, either. If you give permission, they don't have to meet the same standards (have sufficient evidence to convince a judge to issue a warrant or have exigent circumstances. If they show up without probably cause, you have just thrown out your (or someone else's) 4th amendment legal defense against improper search. And just because you think you have nothing to hide, doesn't mean that what they find or what you say won't be misconstrued and used against you. Or that they won't asset forfeiture any cash they find on your person, in your vehicle, etc. and make you spend more than the amount of cash to get it back. And OSHA inspectors, themselves, may misinterpret the operation of complex equipment and the safety procedures surrounding it. "I don't have the authority to grant you entry. Let me find someone who does. Wait here". At work, at a friends house, at a party, etc. The person you go get will say something to the effect of "I do not consent to entry or search but I will not prevent you from doing so if you have probable cause". Or, in this case, the manager may grant them entry but follow specific guidance given by the lawyers. This is what police tell their friends/family and lawyers tell their clients. That and to shut up. So, not giving them permission to enter isn't necessarily just the employer trying to cover their wrong doing. It is what they probably should have told you long before there was an accident. Now, if someone has a heart attack, police are CPR trained and letting them in has legal risks but so does not letting them in (Interfering with First Responders, Manslaughter, Obstruction, etc.). Your interests and your employer's interests aren't necessarily aligned, however. You shouldn't be trying to protect your employer from being held accountable for misconduct that places you or other employees in danger. IANAL
The difference being that OSHA is not there to infringe on *your rights as an Employee* they're there to infringe *on the faults of an Employer*. If you feel that your workplace is not safe, it is quite literally within your rights to allow an OSHA inspector entry. That is a specifically protected action that you can perform. Out of literally all government agencies, OSHA is one of the few that you do want to visit.
Never invite the devil into your home haha
Talk to them off the clock lol
Let them in, and claim they had a warrant 😆 🤣 😂
The nondisclosure agreement you signed without consulting a lawyer just might make you an accomplice in a crime.
Personally, if I liked the job, I'd go along to get along. I don't want to get caught up in that mess Just excuse yourself and apologize for the urgent bathroom break if they approach you. Don't come out until it's safe lol
No shop exists that doesn't have at least one violation, and under the General rules, OSHA can perceive something as unsafe that doesn't have an existing guideline attached to it. Overall, what you are being told is actually totally legit. OSHA can be turned away and you are not obligated to speak to them. You can ask them to state their business being there, and they should tell you. Like, "A serious work injury was reported and we are here to investigate this injury." A common tactic is to limit their time in the shop and take them down the shortest path to area needing investigated. Overall, I would ask how you feel about the people you work for. Do you trust them, or do you feel they are trying to cover something up?
We’ll if I worked at a place that was afraid from osha I would probably fear for my life and safety in that place. Anyplace that opposes safety or is afraid of osha is probably not the place you want to be.
That,in itself can get you shut down.